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The PM Podcast
We Want More Dogs, All The Dogs: A Conversation with Heidi Carman, A Top Five 2025 CNN Hero
00:29:12
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- [00:00]
A
My ultimate goal is to be able to have every first responder in the country that wants a visit from one of our therapy dogs to be able to. So that means we need a lot more therapy dogs because there's a lot more first responders than we're even reaching right now.
- [00:17]
B
Welcome to the PM Podcast, brought to you by Donor Search, the show that takes you inside the lives of thought leaders, innovators and change makers in fundraising, philanthropy and civil society. I'm your host, Jay Frost, recognized as one of the top five CNN heroes of 2025. Heidi Karman is the founder and executive director of First Responder Therapy Dogs, a nonprofit dedicated to supporting the emotional well being of first responders. What began with Heidi and her own dog visiting local fire stations in California has grown into a national effort, reaching firefighters, paramedics, dispatchers, and law enforcement officers across 46 states. By bringing calm and connection into high stress environments, High Heidi is helping first responders navigate the daily toll of their work one wagging tail at a time. Heidi, thank you very much for joining the program and telling us about your work and congratulations on being honored this year by cnn.
- [01:16]
A
Thank you so much. It's been amazing. And thank you for having me on your podcast.
- [01:21]
B
It's great to have you here. And I do want to just ask about how this all got started. And I know it goes back much farther than the organization itself. So I believe you were doing work with guide dogs and training of guide dogs or raising them back into what, right before the year 2000, is that right?
- [01:41]
A
Even before that, the first guide dog puppy that our family raised was, geez, my son was 9 and he's 28 now, so you can do the math. I wanted to figure out something that I have, I have five children and I wanted to do something that I could teach them to give birth to back to, you know, someone they didn't know, just to be of service, to do a kind thing. So we live in Marin county and out here in San Rafael, California is the national headquarters for guide dogs for the blind. So we volunteered to be puppy raisers for a puppy that would grow up to be a working guide dog. That was the goal. So our family got, we got our puppy tomorrow, a little black lab when she was 8 weeks old. And then the guide dog puppy raising group out here, we would meet with them twice a month for puppy raising meetings. We'd go on outings and they would teach us how to do some, like, simple training. And the whole purpose of the puppy raising was to socialize the puppy give it like basic obedience and training, house manners and stuff like that. And then just to take the puppy out into the world to places where the visually impaired person would be traveling or be with them. So they're used to all that kind of stuff. So that's how my, my journey with guide dog started. And that one, the day that the puppy is ready to go back in for formal training, it's called recall day. So we go bring the puppy back that we've madly fallen in love with. And it's when she was 16 months old. So eight weeks to 16 months old, did all the hard work, love the puppy so much. And then we just give it back to guide dogs and then they do the formal training to train the dog to be an actual working guide dog for someone without vision. And, and my 9 year old son said, I don't want to go with you to take her back because I don't want to give her back. And I thought, what have I done? I'm just the worst mother. What have I done to my children? But then that dog actually graduated to be a working guide dog. So we got to go to graduation, we got to present Tamar to her person and it was just amazing. It was a wonderful moment. My whole, all the kids were there with me and it was just like it worked. I'm like, it worked. We actually did this thing and the kids learned how to be of service and give back and it worked. So I thought that was pretty cool.
- [04:00]
B
And that was just the beginning because you then have been doing it for again, as you said, many, many years now, over two decades.
- [04:07]
A
Right. So Carath is my, the current dog I have now who is the original first responders therapy dog. And she was the fifth guide dog puppy our family raised. So with her, same thing got her eight weeks old doing all the same things I just explained and she, she was a little different than Tamar. We could tell from the beginning it was probably not in the cards for. Okay, so Karith was so friendly to everybody that I could tell from a very young age that she was probably not going to be a good candidate to be a guide working guide dog. She, she was a, an adorable golden retriever puppy and she would just look into everybody's eyes and try to get people's attention out in public. And the guide dog staff were telling me, don't let anyone look at her because it's when they look at her, she has to engage with them and then she won't focus on the work. She's Trying to do to learn how to be a guide dog. And it was impossible. Can you imagine just like walking out in public with the cutest golden retriever puppy in the world who's looking at you and you don't want to look back and engage. It was, it was a hard ask. But we tried. We really tried because the goal was, you know, raising these puppies was to help someone else help a visually impaired person have their sight back with a dog. So we tried. But at 14 months old, even before she was going to go back into recall day, she, they, they said, you know, they met with us for our like monthly meeting and to see how she was doing. And they said we're not going to continue with her. And I knew what that meant. I knew it meant she was going to be what's called career changed from the guide dog program. They don't call them flunkies, they call them career change. And in carrots state and carrots situation, a career change is exactly what happened. But at that point, when they told me not going to continue with her, I was just thinking, oh my God, this is so good. I get to keep her. Because I had made. I had made the big mistake of falling so madly in love with her. And I didn't know how I was going to give her back. Obviously I was going to have to, but it was going to be hard because we were really, really bonded and are still. And it's very clear that her purpose in life was to be a therapy dog. And it, you know, so we, right after she was career changed from guide dogs and then we got to keep her as pet. Then I started working with her. I got her certified as a therapy dog. And then I went to our local hospital and one of the very first visits that we did it was there was a. We were, we worked on the emergency department. And so we would visit like the staff and the patients and a lot of paramedics who brought their patients in, we would see them. And one of the very first visits there was a really tragic fatal pediatric call. And that really shook the whole community. And so the paramedics were coming in and they were just distraught. I mean, those calls really hit the first responders really hard, especially those who have children. But it was just really tragic. So they literally, I was watching this and observing how they got down on the ground with karith and they were just like hugging her and like snuggling and petting and just, just losing it, just being with her. And I watched it just transform them from this horrible state they were in to they. Then they were laughing and smiling and taking pictures of her. And, and. And I noted that. And I'm like, huh, this is something really remarkable that I'm experiencing right now with my amazing dog, who I just love so much. But she's just helping in this way that no other help could be. I mean, it's. To work with a dog is just so magical. There's no words need to be said, but it just is so healing. And so I noted that. And then after that, couple local paramedics and firefighters asked if I could take care to visit them at their fire station. Like, sure. That sounds like a lot of fun. Who doesn't want to hang out at a fire station, right? So then I. Then it was just so much fun because everyone was so nice and everyone was just so happy to see me because I was holding the leash and they were so happy to see Caris. And it kind of went up the leash and down the leash and it was just like a lot of fun. And it was just a really happy thing that was happening. And then so I just kind of was, you know, knew I was going to do therapy dog work with her. I didn't really know what, but, you know, this was kind of happening. And. And then I was thinking, well, maybe I'll do like a corporate. Maybe I'll start like a. A corporate business where I'll bring my dog to the corporate offices of stressed out workers. I'm like, no, that doesn't really feel right. But I also knew I didn't want to do like, like assisted living. That didn't feel like a good fit for karith or for me. You know, car more likes the excitement of a firefighter. So we. We just kind of kept doing the hospital. And then the pandemic hit. And then in California, the wildfires were like, literally the state was on fire, the whole state at the same time. During the height of the pandemic, it was pretty disastrous. And one of the firefighters I had met said, can you bring Kareth out to the fire base camp at the fire here we have in Marin county at the Woodward fire and visit all the firefighters. I think they would really like that. And I said, absolutely. So I went out to the base camp with her and same thing. I just thought, wow, everyone is really happy to see her and she's really making their day better because it was just such grueling conditions. I mean, the fires were just so intense. It's like these base camp, it's like it's like a little city and it's like a little war zone, and it's pretty intense. And she was just helping so much. So I thought, huh, I wonder if there's a organization that I can join up with that does that has therapy dogs only for first responders. Because that's what I was tending to do. And then I looked into it and I couldn't find anything that did that. So my little pandemic project was I created the, the first responder therapy dogs with help, you know, with. I have dog trainer friends and I have, you know, friends that know how to do like, like the 501C3 paperwork. I just kept asking people, and we all had a lot of time because it was a pandemic. So. So it kind of came together from there, and it's just been remarkable. That's. That's how it all started.
- [10:48]
B
Wow. I'm wondering about so many things, but one of them is about your kids, because you've been going through this over a period of time, and those years are longer for the dogs than they are for humans. But there was a lot of growth with your kids. If you started this when one child was nine, how has this been for them as they've gone through this experience with you?
- [11:11]
A
It's funny, because I asked them. I just asked my, my son the other day, who's now 28, Is it weird for you that your mom's like a CNN hero and you see her on the news and stuff? And he said, no, I guess he's just used to it. I don't know. I'm not sure why, because it hasn't happened before. But, yeah, they've all. I don't know. I mean, I think that's. They're just used to it. They see what I've been doing and they're proud of me, and they're like my biggest, like, supporters. And I love them all. And they're all grown adults now, so, you know, they have their own lives, but we're all real close and, you know, we three of them live close by. Two are just a little bit farther. But, yeah, they've just grown up with it. And, you know, I'm thinking about what they're doing with their lives. They're. A lot of them are really working as being of service in their lives as well. I mean, one of my kids is a therapist, and, you know, it's. I think that they grew up kind of learning to help others, and they're doing that in their lives in a lot of different ways. So it's pretty cool. Yeah.
- [12:06]
B
You know, I didn't even ask about your own background. I know you're right there in San Rafael, but I don't know where you were born and raised, where all of this fit into your, you know, your understanding of how you relate to others, but also how you relate to animals. Tell me about the beginning for you.
- [12:22]
A
Okay, that's a good story. When I, well, I was born in San Francisco and. Which is just over the bridge from where I live now and grew up here. And when my, my earliest days of like animals was when I turned nine, my mom surprised me with it. Most adorable little rescue dog from our local shelter for my ninth birthday. She was like a poodle mix, white, fluffy, adorable little daisy. I named her Daisy because we had Shasta daisies in the backyard and she looked like them. And she was just my, my best friend, you know, all my childhood, all the way through college until she crossed the rainbow bridge, which she was amazing. And then, I mean, I, I look back and I say that was like the best moment of my childhood for sure. And I remember I turned nine and I remember looking at the mirror and saying, I'm nine today. And I got the most amazing dog for my birthday. It was amazing. And then my aunt, who's only 16 years older than me, she worked as a, at a vet, like a vet office. And I would go, she would bring, I would. She lived like half hour away. So I'd spend weekends with her a lot when I was little and go to work with her and, and just hang out. And I just thought it was so cool just being around all the animals and just kind of being like her sidekick, you know, little niece Heidi, hanging out at vet office. And I just loved it. But then I went to college for psychology and then I was going to go become a work and become a therapist. But then I ended up having a whole bunch of children and was lucky enough to stay home and raise them and, and do that. And then, you know, when they were older, I'm like, huh, now what do I do? So did some dog training classes. Didn't want to be a dog trainer. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I just thought, okay, I'll just take these classes and kind of see where it takes me. You never know. And never could have written this script of where it did take me ever in a million years. But so I started my own dog walking business because I, I'm an athlete too.
- [14:24]
B
I'm a runner.
- [14:24]
A
And I Like, really like being outside and athletic. And I love dogs, so I thought that'd be a good, you know, combination. And so it. It was really successful and I really enjoyed it a lot. And then pandemic hit and then everyone was home and they didn't need their dogs walked. So I'm like, okay, what do I do now? And then that kind of just led into what happened with, with carrots and first responder therapy dogs. And literally, I mean, could. I could have never seen this coming with that, with that path. But you never know what's going to happen. I mean, I'm really grateful that I took those dog training classes because it kind of put me in the direction which led me to dog walking then, which led me to dog something, which led me to CNN hero of the year, you know, going to New York, which is crazy. Yeah.
- [15:12]
B
So I know that this is also an idea which is spread. So maybe, like yourself, many people who are the puppy raisers for guide dogs for the blind, but for other organizations who are familiar with the value that these animals bring to people who are, especially first responders, people who are dealing with trauma and have no way of kind of externalizing that or dealing with it, this is really spread. How have you found other people? How. How have you brought this together? Because you're in how many states now?
- [15:43]
A
We're in 46 states. And it is unbelievable because honestly, we didn't try to spread. I mean, I didn't at first. I thought I was just going to do this with myself and Caris. I'm like, okay, I'm going to all the base camps in California, driving around a lot, staying in hotels, a lot of expenses for all of that. And then my friend said, why don't you start a nonprofit just to cover your expenses for what you're doing? And that's really. That was the beginning before the nonprofit first responder Therapy Dogs was an idea. But so I would go, when I was doing that base camp visit in 2020, I would say, I need more carrots. She can't do this by herself. There's too many firefighters and other first responders. I mean, we didn't. It wasn't just firefighters. We were doing law enforcement, EMS dispatch, you know, all of them. And there are too many for just one dog to help. And so I was at this point, and this was like when the dog walking stopped because I was doing the dog walking and Kara's visits, and it was the first responder therapy dogs was starting. So I got this. I was at this Crossroads where I'm like, pandemic hit. People don't want their dogs walked as much because they're home.
- [16:59]
B
But.
- [17:00]
A
And I've got this little nonprofit thing I'm doing. So do I let the nonprofit grow, let it go and not just be me and Karith, or just keep it for myself? And the answer was very clear because I knew I couldn't help enough people with just her and me. So that's when we created the certification for other dogs to join us. And at first it was just like myself, a couple local friends that went through the certification. So it was. First it was Carrot and Birdie, then it was Carth and Birdie and Rocket, and then it was Caris and Birdie and Rocket and Makana. And then it was like, someone in Oregon contacted me. A firefighter in Oregon said she saw what I was doing because I was really actively posting on social media and people on Karith's Instagram account and Karith people were commenting to or connecting to me on my DMs on Karith's Instagram saying, how can we do this too? And so this firefighter in Oregon, she got her. Her therapy dog, Proby. He was the first out of California dog. And then there were a couple more in Oregon. And then the most amazing thing I think happened was Tracy in Massachusetts with her dog Sparky. Her husband's a firefighter. She is now the east coast director of operations for first responder therapy dogs and the person who nominated me for the CNN Hero Award. But she contacted me through Kara's Instagram, and she said, how can we be the first dog on the East Coast? And I'm like. And I thought, wow, this is amazing. This is growing, like, no pun intended here. But literally, it grew like wildfire. So, like, yes, I'm like, I would love to have Sparky in Massachusetts. And. And then it just kept going and going and going. And I never tried to contact anyone anywhere to ask them to join. They were coming, and still today they're coming to us to join. And a lot of the people that are handlers are first responders themselves or related to first responder or not just want to help first responders. But a lot of them are really drawn to this because of some kind of connection with first responders.
- [19:24]
B
What are you hearing from the first responders themselves? You described that scene in that hospital that first time, but what is it like for you now to go and meet with them? Because for them, it might be the first time that they've been able to kind of bond with an animal and to deal with whatever trauma they've experienced. How is it?
- [19:40]
A
Yeah, there's so many stories. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is a police officer in Detroit, Michigan, said to one of our handlers, after spending time with her dog, he said he just kind of looked up and said, thank you for helping me feel human again. And that, like, really, I mean, I wasn't even there, but that gives me goosebumps, just like hearing it and saying it and thinking about it. So it's like I said, it's like no words need to be said. And the. The first responders are so healed by the just being with the dogs. One time I was at a dispatch In San Francisco, 911 dispatch call center, really busy one. And I just walk around. You know, all the call takers, they're on the calls, but you can't really tell if they're listening or talking because, you know, so I just kind of like walk around and just like karith just walks up to them. If they kind of turn or put their hand down to pet, I mean, I don't say anything because I can tell they're working really hard. And one woman was. I could hear her giving medical instructions to somebody while they're waiting for the paramedics to arrive. And as she was giving them and it sounded like a pretty intense call, and as she was giving them, she was petting kareth. She kind of waved me over, and so Keri just sat next to her and she just had her hand down and she was petting kareth. And then when the paramedics got there, she got off the call and she looked up to me and she had this huge smile, and she's like, it worked. I was so calm because I was petting her. It worked. Thank you so much. I'm like, yeah, that's our pleasure. That's what we're here for. But it was a pretty cool thing. And then she's like, can I take a picture of her for my husband? I'm like, absolutely. Everyone always wants to take pictures of her. It's so cute.
- [21:13]
B
You said that Kara has this social media account, this Instagram account. Is that. It sounds like that was a big factor in seeing what's possible.
- [21:22]
A
Yeah. Oh, I'll tell you one reason. Well, when I very first started her Instagram account, it was right when she was career changed from guide dogs. And I remember the pandemic just started, and I thought, well, let me see if I can grow her account. She had 232 followers. And, and my brother in law was helping me like learn how to do Instagram because I didn't really know. And then when, when we started going up to all the base camps in the pandemic when everything was horrible, I tagged a local newspaper in San Francisco with one of my pictures from the local fire and I said, you know, can you repost this? And instead of reposting, they called me for an interview and then they did a story on their newspaper about what I was doing, which was picked up nationally. And literally for six weeks I was doing nothing but like media. I was on Good Morning America. Caris was pet of the week on Good Morning America. And they came out and filmed us live, which was terrifying for me. We were on ABC World News Tonight. We were on like CNN called for an interview back then. I remember my dispatch friend called me as I was driving home from base camp and she said, you know, CNN just called us and that we've got CNN on the line at dispatch and they want to know if I can, you know, if we can connect you because they want to talk to you. And I had to pull over. I was like, what is happening to my life? This is insane. I mean, I know Kareth's special. I love her attention because of my silly little dog who just loves firefighters. And it was amazing.
- [22:57]
B
I'm, I'm now trying to imagine something that maybe, maybe I shouldn't. But you have to tell me whether or not you have a sense about how Kara feels about all this. Because, I mean, she's a sentient being. I know she's a dog. She's not talking to you every day, but she's interacting with you. And she is also interacting with people who are in a lot of pain and making them feel better. What is it like for Kara Karith?
- [23:23]
A
Caris, you're fine. That happens all the time. And people call her Carrot too. She doesn't care what they call it. The kids call her Carrot Carath. How is it for her? She, I, it's, that's a good question because I'm very aware, I'm very much her advocate and I am aware of her levels, you know, what she can handle. So she definitely takes in all the feelings of the first responder. She, you know, there's so much research on how dogs help people with, you know, raising the, all the good hormones, lowering blood pressure, all the good stuff. And so Carrots just takes it all in. And then when we get back from a visit, she Is has a very long solid nap and then she's ready to go again. But you know, I've noticed she's seven now and we started this when she was two and she definitely has had more stamina when she was 2, but she's got a lot of stamina left at 7. So. Yeah, but it's very clear when I can tell when she's done, when she's had enough and she's tired and that's about, you know, no more than two hours and she's done, you know. So if it's a really intense.
- [24:31]
B
How about for you? I mean, this is, this is a job that takes a lot of stamina, especially in 48 states now with all these partners. How is it to maintain your energy as you, you know, go through this process?
- [24:43]
A
Well, the energy of running the nonprofit is not what's draining. That's very exciting for me. What is draining hard is what I've learned, which I didn't see this coming either, is the secondary trauma that I've been exposed to by being in these situations. So a lot of what we do is go to visit a first responder department or, you know, group of people after a difficult call. And so they, I don't need to know what happened. I really don't want to know what happened. But what happens is they're talking about it amongst themselves. They're talking about it while they're talking petting carath and I'm hearing the details and this happens over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Plus, I get our, all of our volunteers, we have 512 teams across the country now and they will call me and tell me about things that have happened that they went to. And so there's a lot of trauma that I've been exposed to. So I've learned, I mean, I learned to set boundaries and to take care of myself and to do self care for myself, which is really what we're doing for first responders. So I've learned that if I don't take care of myself and like limit that trauma or, or talk about it, deal with it, you know, not hold it in, then I'm not going to be able to do this work, you know. Does that make sense?
- [26:04]
B
That sounds like the hardest part. So what's the most joyful part at this point?
- [26:09]
A
Yeah, that's the hardest part. But it's also very, it's the hard part, but it's also very. It's very. It feel. It makes me feel good to be so helpful because I see how much it helps when we do that with her. Oh, the joyful part is just having, getting to hang out. I. Okay the fact that I created a living for myself, an organization, a movement where I can hang out with my best friend, my dog, my heart dog that I love so much that it's just incredible. I get to go out, bring joy with my dog who I love so much, and she loves doing it so much. I mean, it's just, it's just a, it's a real feel good thing.
- [26:54]
B
Where do you imagine this goes from here? You're already across the whole country, but these, these, these issues are true everywhere because there are crises everywhere and first responders everywhere.
- [27:04]
A
Yeah, I. First responders are definitely, I mean, mental health for first responders is kind of a new thing that's being discussed and it's really, really important because all they do is, you know, help people on their worst days and their traumas add up and add up and add up because they're not, they're, they're not going out on calls that are happy calls, you know. So my ultimate goal is to be able to have every first responder in the country that wants a visit from one of our therapy dogs to be able to. So that means we need a lot more therapy dogs because there's a lot more first responders than we're even reaching right now. And the four states that we still, for some reason, I don't know why, haven't gotten any dogs yet are Wyoming, Nebraska, Mississippi and Louisiana. So we definitely need dogs in those states. We need more dogs across the whole country. So every first responder, because sometimes we'll get a request, you know, I'll get requests from first responders a lot across the country and sometimes we don't have any dogs nearby and I hate to be able, I hate to say no. So we want more dogs. All the dogs, all the first responders should have love from our, our therapy dogs.
- [28:18]
B
Thank you so much for this, Heidi. Really appreciate it. Well, that's it for this episode of the PM Podcast. You can learn more about first responder therapy dogs@first respondertherapydogs.org to vote for the CNN Hero of the Year, go to www.cnn heroes. Our thanks to our sponsor, Donor Search, the global leader in AI powered fundraising intelligence solutions for the nonprofit sector. Our producer is Jack Frost and our theme music is Moving Out, Moving in by Jay Taylor and is provided courtesy of Epidemic Sound. If you like what you heard, make sure to subscribe wherever you like to listen. Check out our sister shows, Front Lines of Social Good and How to Raise. And come back next weekend for another conversation with a leader in the world of social good. Until then, this is Jay Frost. Thanks for joining me.