Advice for Aspiring Actors (Broadway Isn’t Key)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Don’t Listen To Us – “Advice for Aspiring Actors (Broadway Isn’t Key)”

Hosts: Mandy Patinkin, Kathryn Grody, Gideon Grody Patinkin
Producer: Lemonada Media
Date: April 8, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into advice for aspiring actors, tackling everything from creative collaboration, breaking into show business without support, and navigating the realities of pursuing a life in the arts. Mandy Patinkin and Kathryn Grody, joined by their son Gideon, share personal anecdotes, practical wisdom, and a frank, often humorous perspective on what it really takes to “make it”—and why “making it” may not even be the point. The episode also features direct interactions with listeners, exploring anxieties about career, family support, and ambitions beyond Broadway.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Realities and Rewards of Artistic Pursuits

• Mandy and Kathryn open with stories of “playacting” and wild creativity from their childhoods, illustrating the deep roots and varied paths that bring one to the stage ([01:31]–[05:43]).

Notable Quote:

“If you feel you can do anything else in the world, do that, because this is so hard.”
—Mandy Patinkin ([00:11])

Notable Quote:

“Why do we discourage people who have an interest and passion for the arts? ... Everything's hard to do well at.”
—Gideon Grody Patinkin ([26:11])

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2. What Makes a Great Director or Creative Collaborator?

(Listener Question from Joshua, [07:30]–[16:16])

• Kathryn: Values directors who are true collaborators. She describes working with director Timothy Near, who made her feel safe, free, and excited to share every idea without fear of judgment ([08:20]).
• Mandy: Looks for people who “make music with you”—those with the uncanny ability to listen, respond, and invite collaboration. He shares insights learned from Mike Nichols and working alongside Al Pacino ([09:26]–[15:05]).

Notable Quotes:

“What I look for is somebody that isn’t a control freak, that knows that it’s my story and is excited about creating something together.”
—Kathryn Grody ([08:34])

“Can I make music with them? … Do they have an uncanny ability to listen? That to me is everything.”
—Mandy Patinkin ([10:23])

“The true geniuses … want to hear everything you have to say.”
—Mandy Patinkin ([11:18])

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3. Breaking In vs. Breaking Out: Advice for a Young Aspiring Actor

(Live Call-in with Lacey, [17:46]–[33:02])

Lacey’s Dilemma:

• 18, relocated, family unsupportive, deep musical theater love (has “Lesson Number Eight” from Sunday in the Park tattooed), wants to act but feels isolated.

Core Advice:

• Kathryn: Urges Lacey to focus on her love for the craft, not notoriety or “breaking in.” She highlights the exceptional theater program at North Carolina School of the Arts and stresses practice and finding collaborators ([25:04]).
• Mandy: Challenges the trope of “only do this if you have to,” arguing that struggle isn’t unique to the arts ([26:11]).
• Gideon: Encourages Lacey on her passion, affirms her “career in musical theater,” and shares the story of Sondheim writing “Lesson Number Eight” ([21:00]).

Notable Quotes:

“Your goal should be finding like mind, practicing, getting as good as you can and finding like-minded people that you can make music with ... Broadway is not the holy grail.”
—Kathryn Grody ([25:04])

“Just keep making things, being a part of things every way you possibly can.”
—Mandy Patinkin ([25:42])

“Always listen to your gut when the experts tell you no, and even your beloved mom tells you no. That’s your most important voice.”
—Kathryn Grody ([30:16])

“Sometimes there’s this sense you just need to hit it big … but people build a life in the arts by grinding it out.”
—Mandy Patinkin ([31:13])

Memorable Moment:

• Lacey shares her story of meeting Bernadette Peters by following her instincts, despite being told it was impossible ([27:40]–[29:16]).
• Lacey’s passion for Sunday in the Park with George moves the hosts, with them promising to see her perform if they’re in town ([32:46]).

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4. Stage Door Stories and Fan Encounters

([33:37]–[37:38])

• Mandy/Gideon: Reminisces about waiting at the stage door to meet Angela Lansbury and, years later, telling her about that experience ([33:49]).
• Kathryn: Shares being mistaken for a fan at the stage door for her daughter-in-law’s friend, highlighting the humility and unpredictability of theater life ([35:22]).

Notable Quote:

“That was an amazing moment where I really felt what it was like to be treated as a fan. I did not like it.”
—Kathryn Grody ([37:20])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening reflections and playful chaos: [00:05]–[05:43]
• Listener question on directors/collaboration: [07:30]–[16:16]
• Call with aspiring actor Lacey (main advice): [17:46]–[33:02]
• Stage door stories and closing thoughts: [33:37]–[37:38]

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Episode Takeaways

• The world of acting is as grueling as it is joyful; perseverance, curiosity, collaboration, and self-trust matter most.
• “Big breaks” and fame aren’t the measuring sticks—constant creation, community, and a love for the work are.
• There are many paths to fulfillment in the arts, most of them far from Broadway and celebrity.
• Your “gut” is a valuable compass—use it when others tell you it can’t be done.
• Even legendary performers never forget the magic of being a fan.

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Notable Quotes At a Glance

• “I never understood that word [‘artist’]. But ... what I love in a director … is can I make music with them?”
  —Mandy Patinkin ([09:32])
• “You do the work. It works great ... but [one director told me], 'here’s where I’d like you to cry.' ... and I made that moment work.”
  —Kathryn Grody ([16:16])
• “There’s a billion ways to do this. Sing on your street corners … share who you are with people.”
  —Kathryn Grody ([25:48])
• “Practice. Practice.”
  —Gideon Grody Patinkin ([32:44])

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Final Thoughts

The episode is a generous and realistic pep talk for anyone longing for the stage. Mandy, Kathryn, and Gideon approach questions with candor, humor, and a refusal to mystify either the joys or disappointments of theater. Their advice—keep creating, trust your passion, and seek real community—rings true for artists at every level.

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Transcript

[Mandy Patinkin]

Sometimes, Lacy, I've heard my parents say, do this and pursue this only if you have to.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

That's my.

[Mandy Patinkin]

If you feel you can do anything else in the world, do that, because this is so hard. And I heard a caller call in and say, why do people say that in this profession? You don't say that in other professions. Everything's hard to do well at. Why are we discouraging people who have an interest and passion for the arts?

[Podcast Announcer]

Today on Don't Listen to Us.

[Mandy Patinkin]

The real advice every aspiring actor needs to hear. Have you guys ever been hypnotized?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I have, but.

[Mandy Patinkin]

How'd it go?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Great. Did it work? Yes.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Who did it?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I don't remember.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And why did you volunteer for that?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I don't remember where it happened, but I knew that I. I did it, and I was very susceptible to it because I. I was. And. And I went under and I. I just had. It was just a great experience. I loved it. I mean, I didn't, like. It wasn't, like, do it to stop eating or smoking or, you know, like, people get hypnotized for those kind of things. This was just like a party game, I think it was at a party, and I did it, and this person did it, and it was just a great. I loved it. I just loved it.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You loved not being in control or how you felt afterwards.

[Kathryn Grody]

I bet it was relaxing for you.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

It was relaxing. I felt great. I knew that I went under, and he didn't say, like, you forget everything. I knew that I'd been through this process, and there was a piece of me that could kind of hear what I was being asked to do and, you know, in memory and. But I knew that I was. That it wasn't just me pretending or acting like I'm doing what he said. I knew that I was in it in the way he wanted me to be in it, and I just remember loving it like a dream.

[Kathryn Grody]

Do you know what's so weird about this? Do you know what I remember about hypnotizing? My friend Marguerite McCorkle and I, in the seventh grade, used to make potions. We would put junk in a water glass, like an aspirin and a piece of chocolate. We'd mix it all up, and we'd drink it and then pretend. You were hypnotized.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You would drink it?

[Kathryn Grody]

Well, yeah, Most kids just make it. No, we would pretend to drink it. And I remember once telling her to go out of the house, I think, in her underwear, and we would just pretend to hypnotize each Other with a charm. You are going to sleep. There's dad gone. See? Okay. And somehow that was a big daring game for us in the seventh grade. I'm hypnotizing you now. Go out in your underwear.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Wow.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah. Weird.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I think Dad's still out. You have to snap your fingers or something.

[Kathryn Grody]

Oh, hi, hon.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Is that the best snap you can do?

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah, it's pathetic. I'm not a snappy person. It's fingers.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I'd never heard that story from your child.

[Kathryn Grody]

I know. I love it when you actually hear something new.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Do you know when I remember mixing, I would try to get out of school any way I could pretend to be sick. And once I took a bunch of oatmeal, cinnamon, maple syrup and threw it up like milk and mixed it together and then threw it in the bathtub. And I told you that I'd thrown up. And then you asked me, why does my throw up smell like delicious breakfast?

[Kathryn Grody]

I'm remembering that show you made up of all the people in our building, which I thought was so amazing, where you also threw little. Our kitchen was a complete mess because you were making little plastic bags of supposedly dog shit that you were throwing at people in the show. Because that's what one of our lovely, crazy neighbors.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Sort of an avant garde performance evening. And that was a story about one of our crazy neighbors, Jeff, rest his soul, who bit a piece of the superintendent's ear off of.

[Kathryn Grody]

And then took me to coffee to explain why.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And he would. Once I asked him. I was 14 years old, I asked him in the elevator, what do you do for a living? Because I'd known him my whole life in the elevator. And he said, what do I do for a living? What the fuck do you do for a living? What kind of question is that? What do you do for a living, Gideon? I was like, homework and soccer practice. Psycho.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

He said he told people he sold perfume. We're pretty sure that he was an arms dealer.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And he had an entirely too close

[Kathryn Grody]

relationship to his dog, Lady.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And once he got arrested for violating a restraining order from somebody in the neighborhood. His dog was left alone in the apartment. We squirted water underneath the door.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Because they wouldn't let us crumble dog food. And then when he. We couldn't find where he was arrested. And when he got out three days later, he was furious that we gave her the wrong kind of dog food.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah, right.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh, but he also threw a bag of dog shit at Gazeem, the other doorman.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

So in that performance piece you. I had people close their eyes and wonder. And at the pinnacle moment of conflict with Jeff and Kazim, I threw one warmed up plastic bags of peanut butter at everyone.

[Kathryn Grody]

That was a real popular part of that show.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You know, some people appreciated it. Other people wondered what was wrong with me.

[Kathryn Grody]

Our kitchen was such a disaster. But I was thrilled that you were doing something creative. So I got dad to calm down about the mess.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Well, thanks, Mom.

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Mandy Patinkin]

We're going to go to our first listener question. It's a voice note, so if we want to put our headphones in there.

[Joshua (Caller)]

Hi, my name is Joshua. This question is really for both of you as performers, creative folks, and as artists. I'm an artist myself. I perform theater, direct theater, act, sing, limited dance here. But my question is for both of you. For Mandy, in the sense of as a musical theater performer, what is the best trait you see in a director? Or what is the best trait a director can have for you to want to work with him again? And for Catherine, since you create and write a lot of your own stories and your own one woman shows what do you look for in a director or creative collaborator? Since it's your words and you're performing it, what does a director bring to you? In that case, thank you both.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Sure. Thanks. Go ahead, Hun, you go first. I gotta look up something I can't

[Kathryn Grody]

remember on my last. I've only done three solo shows, but I've done them over 25 years. I've always worked with the same director, Timothy near, who. Who created and ran San Jose Rep for 20 years.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You worked with Jack Hofsis and I've

[Kathryn Grody]

worked with Jack Hofsis also. But on the creation of these shows, it's a director that really is a collaborator. I mean, Timmy, especially on this last one, the Unexpected Third. We worked together. She asked me questions. We did. We created it from scratch. The others were adapted from already written material. And it's. What I look for is somebody that isn't a control freak, that knows that it's my story and that is very excited about creating something together. And she brings out the absolute best in me. I feel so safe with her that I'm extremely free in sharing a bad idea or a good idea. I'm not worried about it. And it's just the most fun I've had working with anybody.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Love that. What about you, Dan?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

First of all, what was our.

[Kathryn Grody]

Josh?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Josh. I gotta tell you, Josh, I never use the word that you used to refer to yourself and us as. You're fine, if you want to call yourself that, but it's a word that is, as the mafia used to say, omerta to me. You referred to us as. I'll just spell it A, R, T, I, S, T, S. And I don't. I'm uncomfortable with that word. I just think of ourselves as workers. It's just too pretentious. The artist. Occasionally one does use the word art. But I like what a friend of mine said once, which. And the friend was Mike Nichols, who said, you know, I'll only use this word once, and discussion and otherwise it's omerta.

[Kathryn Grody]

I never understood that.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

But omerta is the mafia mode of silence, which you don't say things anyway. So that's that about the word that you. That you used. But the. What I love in a director and look for, whether it's a piano player or a director, is can I make music with them? And what do I mean by that? Do they listen? Do they have an uncanny ability to listen? And that to me is everything. And the other aspect that I really love, not just with directors, but writers or Fellow actors, choreographers, musicians, anybody particularly. I've noticed that the true geniuses that I have been privileged to work with, and there are. There's more than a few that I've had this privilege with, they want to hear everything you have to say. They really are curious, the less gifted ones that I've encountered. You say, you know, I have an idea. Just do what I asked. Can you just do what I asked? Can you please just do what I asked? And sure, I'll do what you asked. And then they rob themselves of why you hired me as opposed to someone else. I have thoughts, I have a brain, I have instincts, just like you. And I thought we were here to collaborate. When you make music with somebody, you do it together. You can't do it alone. And so I look for that uncanny ability to listen. When I work with a piano player, there are times we sung a song that I've sung thousands of times. And this one night, for whatever reason in my life or the world, I take a pause in a different place or I do it differently. And they know I'm going to do that before I even know I'm going to do it. And I've had directors like that, too. They just trust you. And while the camera's going, they let you go on. I always give them what the words are in the script. I make sure I do that. If I go overboard and do it too loud or too big, I make sure I do a more contained one. But then I often have just thoughts that I would say in normal conversation, like I'm talking to you, and I just start saying them, and they let the camera run, and then they kind of look at me and there's a silent look where they know that I'm done. And you can. You can cut.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I feel like I've seen you. Yeah. Thrive when there's sort of a. It's kind of like a compromise between your ideas and their ideas and trying to have time for everyone to get what they need within the limited resources of that, which is a very different equation, I think, in TV and film versus in theater. Because TV and film is so expensive with the time that you have.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Well, less expensive because it's now digital. So you're not paying for literal film stock. You have greater leniency because that was the huge expense. Yeah, but now the other huge expense is time. Time is the big expense. I don't remember the name of it. It's on Netflix. I think it was Netflix. I couldn't remember any of the stuff. But anyway, it was Scorsese. It was five parts, and I really was. So the thing I loved most about it is the relationship that Dinero and Scorsese had over a lifetime of was that trust to, you know, do it and then just to improvise. Improvise as long as you want.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, but when you're Scorsese and De Niro, you get to improvise as long as you want, because you do. You have significant resources. When we were doing our show with you guys and we had five nights in the city, that was a huge challenge as directors, you know, with working with you, because we definitely wanted you to have fun, wanted you to be getting your ideas, wanted you to play. And we had a very limited budget and limited time. You're trying to make your days, and I do think you're right. Having that experience. You have that producer mind and that clock in your body. But it's not the first thing you have in your body because primarily you are a artif. You're a performer. So the first thing that is in the front of your mind is wanting to do a good job, wanting to get the thing, wanting it to be powerful and connect, and then the brain is in the producer. And then you're contending with producers and directors who have that other thing sometimes.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

But I just have to quibble with you a little bit, because if they're younger, you know, a R T I S T s listening, I don't want them to feel they don't have the right. The other person I learned that it's okay from, I watched. Don't have the right to what, Improvise or do things over and over again and just have that trust is I did Dick Tracy with Warren Beatty, directed it, and I was in scenes with Al Pacino, and I saw Al before the take, before he said what was on the page. Warm himself up, Improvising, getting into it. And the way I saw him do it over and over again, I went, I got it and I got licensed. So you could say yes, but you're a little more than you're not maybe Al Pacino or. Or De Niro or Scorsese, but you are you. And you have certain privileges. Everybody has those privileges. I don't care if it's your first gig, you have those privileges. And sometimes you do it before you do what is on the page and what you have to get done that day, because it's how you get there. And then you do what's on the page. And then if there's another idea you do it or you don't, but you can do anything you want if you have a trusted collaborator. So. So that's a great gift.

[Kathryn Grody]

Can I just say two quick things? One of my favorite things that ever happened with dad with a director that would go unnamed. He was saying, why is it, Mandy, that on some nights you're an A sharp and some nights you're a B flat? And dad said, cause I'm not a flute, you know, because it's gonna be different on one night than another night. And I always love that. I also think to be open to different directors. One of my favorite love two English directors, Max Stafford Clark and Peter Gill, partly because if you ever work with an English director, you never have to audition for them. You do the work. It works great. They'll just ask you. But I remember Peter once said to me when we were doing Michael Weller's Fishing, he said, all right, now, darling, now here's where I'd like you to cry. And I said, peter, cry? How? What. What is my motivation? I don't. How would I cry there? He said, well, you know, you just put your head in your hands and you just go, oh, my gosh. Which was very English and not at all an American thing. But, you know, I loved Peter, and I did it, and I made that moment work.

[Mandy Patinkin]

We're going to get our headphones back in. And we now have a live guest joining us. Let's listen to a question from Lacey before. Before we bring her in.

[Lacey (Caller)]

Hi, Mandy and Catherine. My name is Lacey, and I'm from Pennsylvania. I was just wondering. I have always enjoyed musical theater and performing and entertaining people and making people laugh. And I know in my heart that I will be an actor someday, either on Broadway or on film or TV or whatever. But I was just wondering, how do you kind of make a name for yourself and break into that business when you have no connections and you also have little support? Because my family hates musical theater, and they really think that I'm foolish for trying to achieve this dream, but it's all I can think about, and it's all I can see myself doing. And you guys have obviously had extreme success in what you do, so. Yeah. Thank you so much.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Thank you.

[Mandy Patinkin]

So, hi, Lacy. We've got Lacy joining us.

[Podcast Announcer]

Oh, there you are.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Oh, that's right. We're so excited when we actually get to see the person, because sometimes we don't.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Lacy, where are you now? Where are we talking to you from?

[Lacey (Caller)]

I am in North Carolina.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Where'd you move from?

[Lacey (Caller)]

Pennsylvania. I was from Pennsylvania. I was right outside, like, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. And one time I came home and my mom had a sign in the yard that said, house for sale. And she said, hey, we're moving. And I said, oh, okay.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

So why did you go to North Carolina?

[Lacey (Caller)]

She got a job. And then I went to college in Pennsylvania for, like, four days, and I hated it, so I dropped out and I moved down here with them.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

And how old are you?

[Lacey (Caller)]

I'm 18.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Great.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And, Lacy, I understand this will just help give my parents a sense of how much you love musical theater. I understand that you have a tattoo that may be of interest. Can you tell us about that?

[Lacey (Caller)]

Yeah, it's lesson number eight. It's one of my favorite songs from Sunday in the Park. I have the book behind me, guys. Sunday in the park is like my holy grail. It's my favorite thing ever. And it changed the way that I look at life and art, and I just love that song so much.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Me too. Lacey.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Lacey (Caller)]

Yeah.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Lacey, Lacey, Lacey. I'll tell you right now, without a doubt, you can write it in stone. You will have a career in musical theater. I have never heard anyone say that about lesson number eight, other than me. And that you have put it on your body is even more extraordinary. When Steve, during the pandemic, had his. What birthday was it? 80? No, it was beyond 80. It was the 90th birthday, I think during the pandemic, I think was 2019 or 2020. And I went out on the lawn back here, and Catherine took out the iPhone. They wanted us to each do things that somebody was going to put together for a piece.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Can you remind our listener who Steve is?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Oh, Steve Sondheim, who wrote the musical, who wrote the music to Sunday in the park with George. Many other great, great musicals is, as far as I'm concerned, the Shakespeare of our time. And I was one of. I think the privilege of my professional career was that I got to collaborate and work with him, without a doubt. I always wondered, what was it like being in Shakespeare's company? What was it like getting to do that? And then one day I went. It was like this, Mandy. It was like this. But I had to choose something. We didn't have musicians. Some people did have musicians that played for them in some kind of technical way. Even though everybody was quarantined for Steve's 90th birthday, for Steve's 90th birthday. And I went out on along, and of all the songs, and I know a lot of his songs, I chose that song to Sing a cappella. And I tell you, Lacy, he wrote that song at the last minute for us. It came in right near the end, and it made the show, all of a sudden, work right from the beginning. We were a little lost. Some people were leaving. And he wrote lesson number eight. And children will listen to the day before. The New York Times came, and Bernadette and I put them in that night, and it made the show what it was.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Can you tell us about that song, lesson number eight, or just say no?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I think you need to, like. Lacey knows it, and you need to. Well, Charles has a book. Charles shows them as crayons. Marie has the ball of Charles. Good for Marie. Charles misses his ball. George misses Marie. I can't remember.

[Podcast Announcer]

Child.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Do you know it, Lacy? Can you do it? Do it for me.

[Kathryn Grody]

No, I can't.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

No, I can't. Well, anyway, you can check it out. They're gorgeous. But it's a child. You just have to read it. Read the lyrics, listen to the song. Other people. I'm assuming other people have recorded it, or listen to the one we did for the show. It's. I have to tell you something else that came to me when I was listening to your note.

[Lacey (Caller)]

Okay.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

There's someone that you know, as of now, that also hated musical theater. Can you guess who that might be?

[Lacey (Caller)]

Uh, you.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

No, this person right here, the person I chose to marry that I've been with for 47 years, who is a great actress and writer and. But she particularly despised musical theater, and she chose to hang out with me.

[Kathryn Grody]

I didn't know that's where he was going when I met him, Lacy. And I am very big on people being accountable for their mistakes, and it's very funny. I've got to tell you, Lacy, when I first heard your voice, it sounded

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

like I made a mistake choosing musical theater.

[Kathryn Grody]

No, no, I didn't mean that. Okay, Anybody that chooses Sunday in the park with George already is a certain place to me, because I think that's the greatest musical ever made. And it's funny, when I heard your note and you talked about Broadway and breaking in and making a name for yourself, I gotta tell you, I went, oh, no, this kid. I gotta tell her. You know, first of all, clearly you love the form, and clearly you have a really, very sophisticated idea of the broad idea of what that. What a musical like that can do. And I just want to remind you to stay with your love of the form and don't focus on breaking in or becoming known. You live in North Carolina now. Check out The North Carolina School of the Arts, they have a really excellent theater program. You know, focus right now. You're very young. I know you probably don't feel it, but you are. Check out learning your craft. Check out practicing. Check out finding like minded people. Broadway's a peculiar place. It always has been. It is not the holy grail.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

It should certainly should not be your goal.

[Kathryn Grody]

Your goal should be finding like mind practicing, getting as good as you can and finding like minded people that you can make music with and make theater with and learning. You've got this passion, you've got this great taste and you're brave enough to, you know, buck your family. Who doesn't get it. That's a classic story of people. But there may be a really good reason you moved to North Carolina. Besides that you hated where you were in school. There's a great theater school right there.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You know, there's also but a billion

[Kathryn Grody]

ways and there's a billion ways.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I think you're saying just keep making things, being a part of things every way you possibly can.

[Kathryn Grody]

Sing on your street corners. You know, I mean, share who you are with people.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Something, mom, that I think you are on the verge of saying that I'm glad you didn't. And that I think I actually would challenge now because of another listener who called in is sometimes Lacy. I've heard my parents say, do this and pursue this only if you have to.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

That's Mom.

[Mandy Patinkin]

If you feel you can do anything else in the world, you do that because this is so hard. And I heard a caller call in and say, why do people say that in this profession? You don't say that in other professions. Everything's hard to do well at. It's really hard to be a doctor, it's really hard to be a lawyer. It's really hard to be good at any job.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Get up and have the day.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah. Why are we discouraging people who have an interest and passion for the arts? You try it. You do everything you can. You follow your passion. You'll find out if it's not for you at the end of the day. But I was really refreshed. That's the first time I haven't heard you say that to a young person interested in this. Yeah.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Well, I think the reason mom says it is because it has a legitimate history, as many professions do, of being filled with the possibility of disappointment.

[Mandy Patinkin]

But we only say that to people in the arts and theater. You don't meet a lot of people.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Maybe that's because we're in the arts, maybe. We don't meet a lot of would be medical students or engineering students or science students.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And you think those people in those professions.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I do.

[Kathryn Grody]

1% of equity is employed. 1%. You know, that's why a lot of my friends, Lacey, that were musical theater performers have become great therapists, and they use their music like my best friend. Yeah. You know. Yeah. I mean, people do other things, but I think.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Can I. Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Can I show you this picture of Lacey that she sent us? And then, Lacey, I'm showing them the picture of you and Bernadette Peters. And can you tell us the story behind that?

[Lacey (Caller)]

Okay, sure. I went to her concert in Baltimore at the beginning of November, and I sat in the front row, and she gave a great show. I love Bernadette Peters. She's, like, the top of the list for me. It's like, you and Bernadette Peters. It's probably because of Sunday in the park with George. But I went to her concert and I wrote her a letter, and I was planning on meeting her because I know that she does that. And I asked security guards because I had never been to a concert before, and I was like, is there a stage door? Like, is there a chance of meeting her? Like, I wrote her this letter, and everybody told me no, and I believed them. But then I was gonna leave, and then in my gut, I felt that I shouldn't leave yet. So I kept lingering around, and I walked to the back of the building, and there was a line at the stage door. And I said, oh, my God, she is gonna be at the stage door. And then she came out, and I got to meet her, and I kind of blacked out, and I don't remember what happened, but I remember we took a picture, and then I said, you're beautiful. Thank you. And she said, oh, honey, you're beautiful, too. Have a good night. And that's all I remember. But it was the best night of my life, and I almost died.

[Kathryn Grody]

Did you give her the letter?

[Lacey (Caller)]

I had to give it to the house manager, but she told me that it got to Bernadette. I don't know if it did or not. I hope it did.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

It does. It gets there.

[Lacey (Caller)]

Okay, got it.

[Kathryn Grody]

But this is a very important thing you did already. You listened to your gut. Okay. I want you to know that when Mandy, after doing Evita, wanted to go after Sunday in the park, it was after Sunday.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

No, no, no. It was after Evita. Sunday in the park. Well, Sunday in The park was 84.

[Mandy Patinkin]

This will be 12 minutes of them

[Kathryn Grody]

trying to figure out what they had earlier.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

The important thing is the concerts came after Sunday in the Park, Right?

[Kathryn Grody]

Mandy wanted to try to sing with just a piano player. And every expert in the musical theater, I mean, every significant Broadway producer said, that won't work. You can never do that. Nobody will come and see. Just you and a piano. And Joseph Papp, who was the brilliant creator of the Public Theater, said, well, you didn't ask me. You're doing Leontes and Winners Tale on Monday night during the week. Try on Monday night, your concert. See if it works. So what? What you already know, you were told no. You listened to your gut. You went around a building and you were able to meet somebody. Always listen to your gut when the experts tell you no, and even your beloved mom tells you no. If your gut says something else, Lacey, that's your most important voice.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I'm curious, Lacy, have you. Have you been on stage yet?

[Lacey (Caller)]

Well, I was a little shy before last year, but last year I decided to just go for it. So I auditioned for my school musical, and I was a munchkin in the wizard of Oz.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Nice. And how did that. How did it feel for you being up on stage?

[Lacey (Caller)]

It was amazing. I literally. I don't know, I've never felt anything like it before. Having the audience, like, their energy, like, the back and forth is insane. And it's something I've been chasing ever since I close that show.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Can I just add one other thought here before we. Yeah, we start to wrap up? I think I've seen in. In younger folks, with all the social media and the video culture, sometimes there's a sense that you just need to hit it big or you're waiting for your big moment or the right video or the right person to see or snatch you up or, you know, be found. And I think. I think that is really dangerous and not really how people build a life in the arts. From what I've seen and everyone I've loved as a performer and have enjoyed their work, they have just grinded it out. They keep making things. They sing, they act, they play at every opportunity. And that is where you build the craft, where you build the experience that will lead to opportunities. And so I don't know if that makes sense at all, this kind of, like, waiting to be discovered culture, but I think it's just not really real. There's three Justin Biebers out in the world, and then the rest of the artists are just making things all the time. So I just wanted to add that thought in the Mix.

[Kathryn Grody]

I couldn't agree more with that, Lacy. Just keep growing. Who you are now is not who you're gonna be in 20 years, but you keep making work and finding people to make work with. And don't be afraid to let people know what you want.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Practice. Practice.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And it'll feel so great to invite your parents to the next show that

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

you're in and let us know, too. And if we're in shooting distance, we'll come down and see you.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah.

[Kathryn Grody]

Okay.

[Lacey (Caller)]

Okay, you guys, I'm gonna cry. It's cool. Thank you, guys.

[Kathryn Grody]

Thank you. Lacey. Keep singing.

[Lacey (Caller)]

I will. I love you guys so much.

[Kathryn Grody]

Oh, my God.

[Lacey (Caller)]

Thank you.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

We're very fun as well. You go have a great life. I'm counting on you.

[Kathryn Grody]

Okay, thank you. Bye. Take care,

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

man.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Lesson number eight, tattoo.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Unbelievable.

[Mandy Patinkin]

18 years old. If you're ever wondering if your work is still relevant, that was a big surprise.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Them as crayons.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Final question for you guys. Did you. Did either of you ever wait at a stage door for an actor that you admired? And what do you think you get out of those interactions?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Well, I did it with my dad. I was 13 years old. He brought me to. To New York for my bar mitzvah present. He loved Angela Lansbury. One of the things we went to was to see Mame, and he was in love with her. And he asked if I would mind standing at the stage door after the show. And we waited there. It was on 7th Avenue. I've passed that door hundreds of thousands of times. Maybe not hundreds, but thousands of times. It was that old red barn looking, you know, painted, fading door. And we waited there. There was a black sedan, and angelo Lansbury, after 45 minutes, at least, walked out. And my dad, very shy, quiet man, reached out, and he had no idea I would end up in the musical theater. There was no sign at that point other than I was in the boys choir at the synagogue on Saturdays. And he leaned forward and he said to Ms. Lindsay, May I? And he held his program, may I? And she said, sure. What's your name? And he said, les. And she wrote to Les and signed her name and. And he said, thank you. And she got in the car and drove away. Nice.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And you were just watching that whole thing?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah. And then there's more of the story. I'll just tell the short version of it was, I met her years later. All right. And I told her about that moment.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Wow.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

That's pretty special, because I said, the wrong guy's sitting here. My dad loved you. Wow. Love that. Yeah, it was. It was a beautiful moment. One of my favorite moments I had with my father.

[Mandy Patinkin]

What about you, Mom? Well, any memory of doing that?

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah, once, several years ago, I guess it was about five years ago. A wonderfully talented woman named Laurel. Do you know Laurel's last name? That's Lennon's best friend from junior high.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, Laurel. She. She was in Wicked.

[Kathryn Grody]

She was in Wicked. This was my daughter in law's best friend. And I went, is your daughter in law? Yes. And I went to see her in jag. Jagged Jagged Little Pill. Jagged Little Pill.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Laurel Harris.

[Kathryn Grody]

Laurel Harris in Jagged Little Pill. And I went to see her, and I was so relieved that I thought she was really brilliant in that show. And I'm very spoiled because I'm usually with Mandy Patinkin when I go backstage and we're just ushered in. Well, I didn't prepare. I went to this door and I said, hi, I'm Katherine. Go. Did you see Laurel Harris in Her own Right? Yes. And he looks at. Oh, you're not on the list. So it was 20 degrees. I'm with Timmy. She's freezing. I'm standing in this line. I don't realize that Laurel Harris has a huge following from her national tour from Wicked. She played Elphaba, where she played Elphaba. I'm standing with all these fans, and I'm freezing. And then I see her right when she comes out to start signing autographs. And I go, laurel. And she does a point, you know, just a minute, please, lady. You know? And her husband came by with soup, and he saw me kind of waving, and he said, you know, she's ill. She needs some soup. And then I'm like this. And she goes, just a minute. Let me get a pen to sign your program. And I go, laurel, I'm not a fan. I'm Isaac's mother. And she went, oh, my God. And she was so embarrassed. And then she said the sweetest thing. She kept telling her friend Lennon, you will find somebody. You will find somebody. You'll find the right person. And then she said, but, Kathryn, I. I never imagined her finding anybody as right as Isaac. I didn't think that person existed.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Her oldest son.

[Kathryn Grody]

Our oldest son. But that was an amazing moment where I really felt what it was like to be treated as a fan. I did not like it. You know, that was never my thing. I had children.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

It's always nice when actors treat every fan kindly and nicely.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yes.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Who? That's amazing.

[Kathryn Grody]

Life in the theater.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Life in the theater. Thanks, everybody, for tuning in and not listening and not. We want to hear from you. If you've got questions, stories, advice, weird dreams, ideas, inventions patented or unpatented, we'd love to hear about them. You can send an email to Ask Mandy and Catherine or check out our socials for an easy way to send us a voice note. And don't forget to subscribe or follow us on YouTube, on Apple and other places where you watch or listen to your podcasts. And if you're enjoying the show, please leave us a review. Our team reads all of your comments and reviews. And thank you so much for being here and tuning in. And please remember, don't listen to us

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

or whatever you want to do whatever you want a little.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Or your dream.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah, listen to this. Oh, let me leave you with this. This is an audio gift, okay? I learned it from David Naughton when I did. We shared a dressing room, I think, in Sam Waterston's Hamlet. I think that was it. This is the soundtrack of the Roadrunner running down the road sees coyote, stops coyote, throws the knife at the roadrunner. The knife misses, the roadrunner hits a tree and wobbles. And then the roadrunner leaves. Might be a little tricky with the beard because it affects my lips, but here we go. I'll try. See the the hair on my face messes up my. Oh, that was better. Anyway, thank you very much for listening to that, but not the rest.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Don't Listen to Us is a Lemonada Media original hosted by Mandy Patinkin, Kathryn Grody and Gideon Grody Patinkin, created by Katrina Onstad, Debbie Pacheco and Gideon Grody Patinkin. Executive producers are Kathryn Grody, Gideon Grody Pitinkin, Mandy Patinkin, Katrina Onstadt, Debbie Pacheco, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Whittles Wax. Our engineer is Ryan Derringer of Welterweight Sound. Video and audio production by Mark Whiteway of Bellows Media. You can watch on CNN.com watch or the CNN app. If you haven't subscribed to Limonada Media Premium yet, now's the perfect time. You can hear Don't Listen to Us completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like behind the scenes conversations, questions so weird they didn't make it on air, Becky the Dog, Shenanigans and more. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple podcasts. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out.