Apologies, Advice to Our Younger Selves and No Ties, Ever

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Don’t Listen To Us

Hosts: Mandy Patinkin, Kathryn Grody, Gideon Grody Patinkin
Episode: “Apologies, Advice to Our Younger Selves and No Ties, Ever”
Date: January 21, 2026
Producer: Lemonada Media

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Episode Overview

In this funny, heartfelt installment, actors Mandy Patinkin and Kathryn Grody—joined by their son Gideon—dive into listener questions on apologies, advice for their younger selves, and the changing norms of workplace & personal attire. Through the lens of their long marriage, careers, and family dynamics, the trio share stories, disagreements, and unexpected wisdom, all while gently roasting each other and reflecting candidly on life’s dilemmas.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Where the Mind Wanders (01:36–04:27)

• Gideon suggests a playful exercise: everyone sits in silence and blurts out their random thoughts.
• Kathryn, self-effacing, worries about time and organization, while Mandy admits feeling a bit “fat hunched over.”
• Kathryn quips about the silence: “It's Unbearable. What's that other game we played when you were little? The first person who says something loses…” (04:10)
• Laughter and familial teasing set a relaxed, intimate tone.

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2. Royals, Respect, and Empathy (04:49–08:29)

• The group riff on kings, queens, and the royal family. Kathryn respects Queen Elizabeth’s sacrifices but acknowledges colonial harm.
  • “They obliterated cultures just like we did.” – Kathryn (04:55)
• Mandy’s only interest: his son (born days from Prince William) never made the news.
  • “My son deserved every bit as much attention as Mr. Prince.” – Mandy (05:59)
• Gideon shares a cringeworthy but charming royal encounter:
  • “I said, ‘what’s happening, brother?’… they just looked at me like no one had ever greeted them in that fashion. And I immediately burrowed directly into the ground.” (06:16)
• Mandy empathizes with the royal burden, joking: “I think [suits and ties] are a punishment that somebody who hated men made for men to wear.” (18:40)

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3. DIY Disasters & “Pretty Work” Philosophy (09:30–16:13)

• Listener Sunny asks about clogged pipes and repair gone awry; Mandy dispenses DIY and life advice:
  • “No, I think it's a good lesson. You won't make that mistake using a snake that way again…” (11:25)
  • Endorses “earthworm” (natural declogger), hoping for a sponsorship.
• Mandy shares a formative childhood story:
  • “‘You should always do pretty work and be proud of it.’ …Nothing stayed with me like that comment from Harold the electrician.” – Mandy (13:08)
• Kathryn jokes her approach would be: “Hello, plumbing. Thank you.” (12:33)
• Both encourage learning by failing and the value of YouTube tutorials (14:27).
• Kathryn’s real-life YouTube fail (car dent and hot water) and shout-out to local “Magic Mike” mechanic.

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4. Fashion, Class, and the Death of the Suit (18:11–29:43)

• Rohan asks: Should he keep wearing a tie at work as others go casual?
• Mandy’s passionate argument:
  • “I don’t own a tie and I don’t have a suit... they’re a punishment that somebody who hated men made for men to wear...Absolutely, I think you should loosen up and wear your most comfortable clothing.” (18:54)
• Kathryn sees value in ritual and occasion:
  • “I think you should wear whatever makes you feel good… I love the distinction [of grownup vs. kid clothes].” (20:32)
• They discuss respect, formality, and generational shifts.
• Mandy rails against “the horseshit” (22:14) of respect-based formal attire, declaring:
  • “If I go to a funeral...what’s important is that I'm here, my soul is here... and I'm not naked to offend anyone.” (22:31)
• Kathryn’s experiment: she wore one outfit to every awards show for six years—no one noticed.
• Gideon and Kathryn highlight class issues:
  • “It is a tremendous privilege to say ‘I can wear whatever I want.’ If you see somebody...in jeans with holes... that kid is likely to come from extraordinary privilege.” – Gideon (26:17)
  • “A lot of black and brown folks have to have armor when they go to work…” (27:08)

Notable Quotes

• “Grownups used to wear grownup clothes. Our generation went after dressing like kids… so we could feel young forever.” – Mandy (23:43)
• “When you reach 65... you start making jokes like that at exactly the age.” – Gideon (24:44)
• “I like having certain occasions where you have a ritual of dressing… I also don’t like rules.” – Kathryn (25:07)

Light Moments & Stories

• Kathryn’s brief nursing home job “dressed like a nurse, though totally unqualified.” (27:58)
• Mandy’s short-lived job as a restaurant “moose” handing out chocolate mousse, before landing a theater gig. (28:28)

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5. Apologizing: Repair or Surrender? (31:57–37:13)

• Listener “Sad Grandma” asks if she should apologize to a family member who’s cut her off—even though both owe apologies.
• Kathryn, moved:
  • “I would probably just say, ‘Fine, I’m sorry for whatever I did that so hurt you. Can we move on?’” (34:15)
• Conversation shifts to the costs of holding out for fairness versus choosing peace.
• Gideon notes the reality versus the fantasy of reconciliation:
  • “Sometimes I think we have these ideas of what something might be in our head... versus the reality of what it costs.” (35:27)
• Kathryn admits people-pleasing tendencies, rare true fallings-out, and the “superpower” of letting go or holding on for love.

Mother/Son Vulnerability Mini-Exchange

• Gideon prods Kathryn about owning his sadness versus her wanting to fix it.
  • “It’s inviting for parents to take children’s problems as their own… then it’s an excuse not to deal with their own lives.” (36:13)
• They agree to a new deal: if Gideon shares sadness, Kathryn practices being empathetic but not a fixer.
  • “Next time you feel sad, you’ll tell me and I’ll practice being appropriately empathetic without coming up with a solution.” – Kathryn (36:56)

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6. Advice to Our Younger Selves (37:18–43:06)

• Gideon walks Kathryn through a memory exercise:
  • “Where were you at 20?”
• Kathryn lands in her San Francisco college apartment, in a “weird chartreuse striped sleeveless turtleneck.”
• Advice to young self:
  • “Don’t be so afraid of being humiliated… Be more vulnerable. Let people know what you really want and have a little friggin humility because you’re not so fucking great.” – Kathryn (40:05)
• Gideon struggles to remember 20, remembering a time pre-iPhone; advises his younger self: “Maybe tell myself never to get a smartphone… and not take myself so seriously.” (42:27)
• Both share a yearning for less seriousness, more openness, and not being defined by armor or pretension.
• Touching recognition from Kathryn: “You were pretty joyful to be around always.” (43:02)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You don't know where the gold's coming from.” – Mandy, on random life wisdom (14:00)
• “Only date royals.” – Mandy, tongue-in-cheek advice (08:16)
• “Don't be so afraid of being humiliated... you don't really feel as fabulous as you're letting off. You just are afraid to be vulnerable.” – Kathryn (40:05)
• “It is about class. I think there's a lot of people who would love to wear whatever they want, but they do not have that privilege.” – Gideon (26:17)
• “If you were born into poverty, marry a royal.” – Mandy, playfully (08:03)

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Major Timestamps

• 01:36–04:27 Random Mind Exercise & Royal Family Banter
• 09:30–16:13 DIY Plumbing Tumults & “Pretty Work”
• 18:11–29:43 Workplace Fashion, Class, and Costume Stories
• 31:57–37:13 Apologies, Estrangement & Family Repair
• 37:18–43:06 Memory Lane & Advice to Younger Selves

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode is lively, gentle, a bit chaotic in that loving family way. When Mandy rails against suits or offers sponsor plugs with comic timing, or Kathryn introspectively unspools the complexity of apology and regret, listeners are dropped into a real kitchen table chat—full of laughter, tangents, and big-hearted candor.
For anyone wrestling with DIY fail, family grudges, awkward dress codes, or what they’d say to their younger self, this episode leaves you with the sense that wisdom comes tangled up with self-deprecating humor, trial and error, and a willingness to risk vulnerability—even, or especially, after 40 years together.

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Summary Table of Key Moments

| Timestamp | Segment | Highlights | |-----------|-----------------------------------|---------------------------------------------------------| | 01:36 | Mind Wandering Exercise | Random thoughts; laughter about the “quiet game.” | | 04:55 | Royals/Ritual | King/queen discussion & respect for/critique of monarchy| | 11:25 | Home Repair Q&A | DIY lessons, “pretty work” story from Mandy | | 18:11 | Workplace Dress Code | From suits to “hikey, comfy, cozy;” class issues | | 22:14 | Rituals & Respect | Debate on whether respectful attire matters | | 31:57 | Apology Dilemma | “Sad Grandma” question; empathy, advice, family repair | | 37:18 | Advice to Younger Selves | Vulnerability, fear of humiliation, revisiting age 20 | | 42:27 | Tech Regrets | Gideon: “Never get a smartphone” |

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Final reminder:
“Don’t listen to us. Really. Seriously, don’t. I can hear you all saying, ‘We’re not.’” – Kathryn (43:57)

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Transcript

[A]

Hi everyone. Gideon here. Mandy and Catherine are going to be at the 92nd Street Y in New York on Thursday, January 22nd at 7:30pm they'll be on stage talking with the one and only Faith Saley from CBS Sunday Morning about our podcast Don't Listen to Us, about their marriage, about New York and about anything else that they can think of. You can get tickets to see the talk in person or online by going to92ny.org that's 92ny.org this episode of Don't.

[B]

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[A]

I want to, I want to try something just to get the day started. I thought it would be fun.

[B]

I thought we just started, right?

[A]

Great. I want to try something for the second, for whatever time this is right now. I thought we could just sit here quiet for a moment and don't try to think of anything in particular or anything interesting, meaningful, smart, funny, useful. Just see where your mind goes and when something comes up, instead of having a conversation for a second, just say the thing that your mind shot to and then let's not comment on what anyone else says and just see, I'm just curious, the random places that our brain goes to and if, if it's not interesting, you know, cut it out. But I'm just curious. And it can be, it can be quiet for a second. And then when you, when something comes to mind, just say it out loud. And then we'll just do that for a minute. Didn't put cheese on my eggs this morning.

[C]

Anxious about time of the day organizing.

[A]

I feel a little fat sitting hunched over.

[B]

I got to do this when I meditate because when I meditate, I try to empty my mind and when I try to think of the first thing that pops into my mind, I can't do it when I'm meditating, but when I'm trying to think of the first thing that pops into my mind, my mind is empty. So I need to do this exercise while I'm meditating.

[C]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

You can't take the silence.

[B]

It's Unbearable. What's that other game we played when you were little? The first person who says something loses. You know, of the quiet game. Quiet game, yeah. The first person to try it.

[A]

Mom always lost. Yeah. Such a good pen for you, dad. Dad's pen today has a beautiful sort of bejeweled queen's crown.

[B]

How do you know it's not the king's crown? I think that looks exactly like. What's the king's name?

[A]

King Louis something Henry?

[C]

King William? King Charles.

[B]

King Charles, yeah. Doesn't that look like the crown he had on his head?

[C]

I think it's hard to tell the difference between the king and the queen.

[A]

What do you guys think of the kings and queens? Have you. Were you into the royal family growing up?

[C]

I kind of loved the tradition of the royal family, though I have very mixed feelings about it because, you know, they were a commonwealth and they were an empire, and they obliterated cultures just like we did.

[A]

Just that little thing.

[C]

Just that little thing.

[A]

Small little thing.

[C]

Yeah. But I had enormous respect by Queen Elizabeth's story in terms of her loyalty and what she sacrificed. And it seems like a ritual that's really important to people on all sides of the political spectrum.

[A]

There's dad. Did you grow up as a kid having feelings about the royal family?

[B]

I didn't. I only had them at 30 years old.

[A]

Why 30 years old?

[B]

Because Prince William was born almost the same day as Prince Isaac, my son.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

And Prince Isaac was not mentioned in the newspapers or.

[C]

And we were living in London.

[A]

You were offended by that.

[B]

I still am.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My son deserved every bit as much attention as Mr. Prince.

[A]

I agree. You know, I met. I met Prince Harry once.

[C]

I know you did, and don't need.

[A]

To describe the circumstances in which I met him, but I was trying to be casual.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I walk up to him, and it was him, Prince William and Kate. And I walked up, I was really nervous, trying to act casual, and I said, what's happening, brother?

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And he went to shake my hand. I kind of, like, slapped his hand or something. He looked. They just looked at me like no one had ever greeted them in that fashion. And I immediately burrowed directly into the ground.

[B]

I feel bad for them. All of them.

[A]

Yeah. That's a lot.

[B]

It's. I feel bad for them. I think it's a rough load to inherit, and in this time, I think it's an easier load in this time than it was in medieval times, because then it really was, you know, a nightmare.

[A]

Also, the plumbing yeah, Plumbing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But Harry got out. Harry's out.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, Harry's definitely out living a normal life.

[B]

But I'm happy to invite them, any of them, to come talk with us. What I do like about the royal family and admire is the work they do for the underprivileged and charity work and organizations and the vulnerable in the world. And they are leaders in that. And in all seriousness, the rest of it was a joke that I was saying, but they are to be admired for looking after vulnerable people in this world. And. And they deserve all the credit in the world for that, for their good.

[A]

Deeds that they're doing. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Everybody should do that. If everybody did one trillionth of what.

[C]

They do well, they also have resources to do it, honey. You know.

[B]

Well, sorry, no excuse. If you were born into poverty. Marry. Marry a royal.

[A]

That's a great. That is great advice on don't listen to us.

[C]

Yeah, really. That's really.

[B]

Only date royals.

[A]

I think there's no chance that we don't hear immediately from the entire royal family just begging to be on this show.

[C]

Yeah, really. And correcting certain assumptions.

[B]

And we may not have a slot.

[A]

So. Mom available. Dad, this next. This next question.

[B]

Is this from King Charles?

[A]

No. Is home repair question from Sunny. And since we know you love home repair questions so much, I thought I would give you a special opportunity. And I've got these industrial earmuffs.

[C]

Why are you looking at me?

[A]

Because. And this eye mask. And I thought you could put the earmuffs on so you can't hear this question. And you can wear the eye mask so you can't listen to it. And you can go to a peaceful place while dad takes this home repair.

[B]

Question, which is a really interesting piece of information for my listeners, that if you wear an eye mask, you can listen to the question.

[A]

She's got ear.

[B]

What does the eye mask do?

[A]

The eye mask brings her to her peaceful voice. That's good. She's holding it on her face. She's wearing earmuffs that block out the sound.

[B]

And she's gonna be upset about what the earmuffs do to her hair, but.

[C]

I won't be able to participate.

[A]

Do you want to hear the home repair question?

[C]

Would you rather me be like this?

[A]

No, I'm just. You know what?

[C]

Will anybody else be amused by this except you, kid?

[B]

Only get.

[A]

Can you hear us? She can't hear us. Okay.

[B]

You didn't need to put the earbuds on. She's fucking deaf.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Did you hear that?

[A]

Okay. You've had enough with the earbuds. That was very short lived. It was a good experiment. It's good to know.

[C]

Just your creativity. Always burgeoning, honey.

[A]

Okay, guys, we have this. We have these as tools, okay? If you need to go to a dark, quiet place, I'll wear them. No, you have to answer. Okay, here's the question, Mandy. I heard home repairs is your thing, so here it goes. Recently, I had a clogged sink in my kitchen. I tried to plunge it. That worked the last time, but this time the water wouldn't go down. I'm trying to learn how to do more home repairs, especially now that things are so expensive, including a plumber. Holy cow. I went to the hardware store and I was told to buy a snake and some declogging liquid.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Mandy's leaving the table.

[C]

He's finding.

[A]

Oh, he's going under the sink.

[B]

Okay, who wrote the question?

[A]

Sonny, but I'm still reading the question.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

Turns out. Yeah, it's a long question. Turns out the snake got caught in the sink, and when I tried to pull it out, I punched a hole in the pipe. And yay me. Turns out the pipe was corroding. I was mad at myself because I spent two hours trying to fix this thing, only to have to call a plumber anyway. On the other hand, I did learn a few things about clogged pipes and snakes. What do you think? Was this a waste of time? Should I have called the plumber in the first place? And when do you know it's time to call it quits and get outside help? Thanks in advance, Sunny.

[B]

No, I think it's a good lesson. You won't make that mistake using a snake that way again because the pipes obviously were old and not new stuff that won't, you know, react that way to a snake, but. So you'll be careful in your cold plumber for stuff like that. But you can maintain your pipes and your drains with earthworm. And I'm hoping that one day they will be our sponsor. It's great for slow drains. It's actually fresh sink citrus and sage, natural enzymes. It's all natural. You pour it in in the evening.

[A]

Had you tried other products before this one?

[B]

Yes, I did. I like this one the best. And it really maintains a clean, happy drain.

[A]

You pour that in every evening?

[B]

No, I don't anymore because I only poured in if I'm noticing some cloggage.

[A]

Nice. And mom, what would you six to.

[B]

Eight ounces into.

[A]

If dad wasn't home and you had a Clogged drain. How would you approach it?

[B]

Hello.

[C]

Hello, Plumbing. Thank you. You know, but I'm very glad that.

[B]

You'Re to do it for three consecutive nights. About a quarter of this bottle.

[A]

Have you ever punched through a pipe? Have you ever had a plumbing problem? And you should have called the plumber earlier.

[C]

Dad has solved so many plumbing problems, it's unbelievable. He helps the plumbers, the professional plumbers, when they do need to come.

[B]

But I know when to call. I've said it before. My favorite thing that I was ever told as a kid stayed with me my whole life. My dad had a wonderful guy and his. His name was Harold.

[A]

Wonderful plumber.

[B]

He was an electrician, and he was a master. And because of racism in Chicago, he was never made a foreman. But he worked for my dad at the. At the scrapyard. And then he would come to our house to help my. The father with certain things in the house. And I was about six years old and he called me over to the wall. He was working on something going up to the attic. He said, mandy, come on over here and look at this. And he said, you see this? I said, yeah. He said, you see I do pretty work. You see that? I said, yeah. He said, you should always do pretty work and be proud of it. And I tell you, I've heard a lot of stuff in my life. Nothing stayed with me like that comment from Harold the electrician. Pretty work. Pretty work. Pride of his work and be proud of it. And I really thought I loved that guy. Yeah. So you don't know where the gold's coming from.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But I think Sonny, I have an opinion. I respect Sonny for trying to do it.

[A]

Yeah. It is an interesting. Because, I mean, you love more than anything when you're struggling with something and you figure it out on your own, but with, I think, home ownership, it's a very fine line between figuring it out on your own and causing irreparable damage that costs you thousands.

[B]

I admire Honey trying to do it. Honey. Sunny, honey. Sunny's my honey. And that's good, son. That's how I've done it in the past. I tried something on my own, screwed it up, ended up having to call the plumber, the electrician. And then I learned. But then you learn what you can handle and what you can't handle. But this YouTube videos are quite a treasure trove. You can, you can figure out a lot. You can figure out right from the get go that I can do that or I can't do that.

[C]

Well, I just want to say that I tried following one of those YouTubes when I took dad's car and bumped into a hitch that was sticking out. That didn't show up.

[B]

Brand new car and it pumped like.

[C]

A little thing into the fender. And. And my friend Elon told me that if you just pour hot water, because they're all plastic and you pour hot water on the indentation and just go underneath and punch it out, it'll fix it.

[A]

Go underneath and punch it out.

[B]

And you went under the car and punched it.

[C]

I went to Alons early in the morning and he got a hot water thing and he poured it over there and I was pouring it and he was under the car punching that plastic. And that did not work.

[B]

That you just, you know, note for homeowners, car owners. If you try that, you will ruin your car.

[C]

It didn't ruin the car, but it did not.

[B]

But you'll be paying. Go find a great, great hole in the wall. Mechanic.

[C]

Yeah, like Magic Mike. That's where you should go.

[B]

That's where we went. Magic Mike is just an artist.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You can't believe this guy.

[C]

Awesome. And he should know that. Kids, Magic Mike, you go to a car place a lot.

[A]

There's a lot of Magic Mike's out there.

[C]

No, no, he's right, right here.

[A]

This isn't the stripper that they made three movies.

[C]

No, it is also a stripper. Honestly, I'm kind of famous within my family and among my friends about how much I hate to cook. And Marley Spoon has been a game changer. I mean, it's genuinely changed how I cook at home. You know, you get these pre proportioned fresh ingredients and chef developed recipes. They're also unusual and they're easy. Even for somebody like me who finds anything to do with the kitchen totally intimidating. And I made this za' atar chicken. I'm so bored with chicken. I mean, we have it all the time and it's always the same onions, a little salt, pepper. But their za' atar chicken with tahini and the special spice really was an exciting meal. And then the other day Gid made something and I thought he's a great cook, so I just assumed it was his. It was this shrimp recipe with this farro and this sauce and greens. I mean it was fantastic. It didn't taste like sort of a packaged meal. It tasted like really fresh, delicious, original cooking. Something like a real cook would make. So this new year, fast track your way to eating well with Marley spoon. Head to marley spoon.com offer don'tlisten for up to 25 free meals. That's right. Up to 25 free meals with Marley Spoon. That's marley spoon.com offer don'Tlisten or for up to 25 free meals.

[A]

This is an email we received from a listener with a fashion question. Mandy, would you please read their note?

[B]

Hi, Catherine. Hi, Mandy. I've been working in an office for almost two decades. When I started, the men, including me, all wore suits and ties. Gradually, the ties went away, then the suit jackets. Now I'm seeing polos, even T shirts, sometimes jeans. I'm wearing a button down and khakis most days. But I have to admit, I kind of miss the more formal looks. Less to think about. Should I loosen up or should I put back on my tie? What do you think? Why is the workplace uniform a thing of the past? Big fan, Rohan. Well, Rohan, first of all, I'm standing up so you can see my jeans and my shirt that's got paint on it. So I don't own a tie and I don't have a suit. I have one suit that somebody gave me for an awards ceremony and they paid for it. So because I wouldn't pay for a suit and I hate them, I feel that they are straight jackets for men. Not just tuxedos, but suits and ties. I think they're a punishment that somebody who hated men made for men to wear. And so absolutely, I think you should loosen up and wear your most comfortable clothing. Gideon referred to my wardrobe as hikey, comfy, cozy. So I wear hiking clothes that dry quickly. Some of them are bug resistant, you know, for ticks and things. And mom, how are you?

[A]

How are you doing, mom, at just listening to your husband when you have.

[B]

No time for you to say anything?

[A]

There has never been a situation where you have not gotten. I'm intimidated by that to Saint Text.

[C]

I think people should.

[A]

No, no, you didn't. I'm just trying to bring mom into a place where she doesn't have to worry that she won't get to say something.

[C]

Yes. Okay, continue.

[A]

What do you.

[C]

I think it's a really interesting thing. First of all, I think you should wear whatever makes you feel good. If you're a person that likes distinguishing between how you look and feel at home in a T shirt versus how you look in the office, there's no rule against you wearing a tie and a suit. But what I think is really interesting is in the 50s, I know where you're going. I know this has been an old pet peeve of mine or or curiosity. In the 50s and 60s, the distinction between grown up clothes and kid clothes was very obvious.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And over the 60s and 70s and 80s, it's really interesting. We're all wearing the same things. I once went to a rehearsal 20 years ago in Chicago and I walked in and I was wearing the exact same outfit as the woman playing my daughter. We were both in bell bottom jeans, a little T shirt, a little sweatshirt. And I said, am I dressed totally inappropriately? And it's a funny thing. I love the distinction. You and I, Gideon, once had one of our few big fights when you were like 14 and I invited you to the opening of a play.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And you wore rags. I said, I'm sorry, you have to wear other things. And you got very rude about it and criticized my clothing. Uncle Mike was there and he got furious with you. And I ended up making you wear a suit jacket of dad's. It was ridiculous. You had this one sport coat hunt that I had got for you and it hung down over your hands and looked ridiculous. But I said, I'm sorry. This is an opening of a Broadway play and you pay respect. Respect.

[A]

Do you miss that time when there were certain standards of respect where there was a sense of occasion and a sense of formality?

[B]

I think it's horseshit. I really do. Dressing up for respect. I really do. You know, whether it's a funeral, whatever, if I go to a funeral or some big affair for somebody, what's important. And other people don't feel this way. What's important is that I'm here, my soul is here.

[A]

And that you're not naked.

[B]

My being is here, and I'm not naked to offend anyone, which would offend everyone. But, honey, your nose is growing. So I think it's ridiculous, these costumes and outfits.

[A]

So let me ask you a question. So in your ideal world, there would be no expectation in any particular event or location to wear a different kind of clothing. It's just like everybody wear.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I look whatever you want. All the time, Forever.

[B]

Yes. I look for when I play a part. The best parts for me are like Che Guevara in Evita. Why one outfit, one outfit. Never Change costume. Patti LuPone's Changing Dresses Day and night. But Mom's missing the most important thing we talk about with this issue. And that is, to my memory, that when you watched I Love Lucy, they. Even though they were what he's what this gentleman saying, Rohan, Rohan, Rohan is saying wear casual clothing. They looked like grownups even in their Casual clothing. Because they really weren't dressing like us at the time. And they were our age and we were dressing like kids. We were dressing like high school kids in jeans and T shirts and stuff. They were dressing like they had adult.

[C]

Clothes on all the time.

[B]

Well, not suits and ties like an office uniform.

[C]

But they were grown up clothes.

[B]

I know, but they were casual grown up clothes. They were in the casual grown up quotes, you know, hanging rack, you know, aisle. And, and we, our generation went after dressing like kids. We tried to dress like kids. And we did try to loosen it up so we could feel young forever. And I've never realized it more than now, when I wish I could be young forever and I can't be. And I make a joke to everybody who says, can I get you anything, sir? Yes, I'd like, I'd like a tuna sandwich, a glass of water and a side of guacamole and could you make me 30?

[C]

And I say that, that's what I'm saying.

[A]

Do you ever get a laugh or they like.

[B]

Mom like those.

[C]

Oh, honey, can't stand it.

[B]

I can't say she criticizes my joke.

[A]

Well, when you reach 65, you do. It's something chemical and psychological. You start making jokes like that at.

[B]

Exactly the age she calls some old man jokes.

[C]

I cannot stand it.

[B]

But you know what I mean it.

[A]

No, I believe you do and every other old man does.

[B]

Fuck you, old man.

[A]

It's such a rich of old man jokes. And you have, you have company all over the world.

[B]

When will you be an old man? How many years you got left? You counting?

[A]

It's close.

[C]

No, it is not close. But you know what's interesting?

[A]

What do we even tell you?

[C]

I'm really. Well, wait a minute. I feel a contradiction within myself about this. I like, I like having certain occasions where you have a ritual of dressing and Anna, I like the distinctions. I just think it's a fun thing as a human and at the same time, I don't like rules. I wanted to say I did an experiment during Homeland where there were all these award shows to go to. And I bought the best formal outfit I'd ever bought in my life. That's a whole long story with jazz. But one of my goals was I wanted to see if anybody noticed that Mandy Patinkin's wife wore the exact same outfit for six years to every award show. Because it was such a big thing what people were wearing.

[A]

I never did notice.

[C]

Nobody noticed a white haired person in the same outfit. Even though I thought it Was gorgeous. Did not ever notice.

[B]

You know what it also is? You know why? Because it's about class. It's a class issue.

[A]

It is. But in it being a class issue, it's a tremendous privilege to come from a place of saying, I want to and I can wear whatever I want. If you see somebody on the subway and they've got a bunch of holes in their jeans, that kid is likely to be. And come from extraordinary privilege.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

I speak to this from great, you know, familiarity.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So you're right. It is about class. I think there's a lot of people in the world who would love to wear whatever the fuck they want all the time, but they do not have that privilege to wear their uniform. You have to wear the uniform or you have to look good.

[C]

I mean, you have to respect yourself.

[A]

White people in this culture can go around looking like a piece of shit and still get the job and still get the thing and have no problem.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

Whereas a lot of black and brown folks have to have armor work.

[C]

They say, this is 10 times as hard to. And they say, I respect myself. So in case you disrespect me, it won't be because of what?

[B]

I have a friend who will go without mentioning that he spends a lot of time. Well, you know, talking on work, on a computer. And I've seen him in shorts or maybe his underwear. Maybe just his underwear. But he's got a sport going on.

[A]

Oh, yeah? Yeah.

[B]

Because he's only seen zoom. He's only seen wardrobe. Yeah. And I just think that's wild. I think it's one.

[A]

Let me ask a question. What's the strangest uniform you've worn to work that comes to mind?

[B]

Kath, off the top of your head.

[C]

It's so funny. What just came to the top of my head. When I was in college looking for a job in the summer, and I worked at a nursing home.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I was totally unqualified, but I got the job because they hire anybody. And I wore, like, white jeans and a white shirt, sort of pretending to be a nurse. And the real nurse took one look at me and just sort of rolled her eyes and said, come on in.

[A]

That's amazing.

[C]

You know, but I thought that would make me look like I knew what I was doing. Yeah.

[A]

What comes to your mind? Dad, I thought of something for you.

[B]

Tell me. I can't think because I wear so many costumes.

[A]

Your strangest costume for work? Moose.

[B]

Oh. Oh, my moose. What was that again? Remind me.

[A]

You. You.

[B]

Oh, yes. You Want me to tell that story?

[A]

No, no, I'm gonna tell it.

[B]

You're gonna bring the bottom.

[A]

I'm gonna bring. I'm gonna do the shortest version you've ever heard.

[B]

Okay, go on.

[A]

You were working at Fiorello's.

[B]

I was trying. Yeah.

[A]

And you were. Your job. They gave you a job and you were dressed up as a moose standing.

[B]

Between the street Lincoln center and the rest.

[A]

Yeah. On the dividing. Little dividing street thing. And you had samples of chocolate mousse dressed up as a mousse.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that was your time working in the restaurant industry. And the next day you got a call to star in Evita.

[B]

No, no. The next day I got a job to get my equity card in children's theater in Baltimore, center stage.

[A]

And you put your moose costume away.

[B]

I spent only one day moose ing.

[C]

The only actor I know that has never really had to have.

[B]

What are you talking about?

[C]

Other than that I was a moose.

[B]

One day and then the next. And that night he said, okay, because it was raining and some little old ladies were complaining that you have those two young people out there in those moose costumes. And so he said to me, I said, well, I. I'd like to keep a job. He said, have you bussed? And I said, yes, I was a busboy.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And so don't tell him.

[C]

I know, I know, honey.

[B]

And so I took the busboy job at night. And that was it.

[C]

One day. And that was it.

[B]

One day. And then I got.

[A]

I wish, I do wish you still had that costume.

[B]

I can get you one. We're not big drinkers here in the Grody Patinkin household. We like healthy everything. But I do love the idea. The idea. The idea of a good cocktail. Recently we've been talking in our family and we tried little saints. It's a real cocktail experience. I'm telling you. This is the Ms. That's Yiddish for the truth. Without the alcohol, there is zero sugar. I like that because I'm trying not to have sugar. I'm working out every day. I'm doing everything I can to get younger and stay healthy and live a long life so I can play with my grandkids. It has only 5 calories and it is non intoxicating. It's enhanced with nature's neuroscience. How do I know that? Because I love science. Functional botanicals like lion's mane, reishi and damiana. I think I'm saying that right. If not, Google it. And you can correct me when you see me. And I feel good about serving it at a party. It's something everyone can enjoy. Please visit little saints.com to explore their cocktails. And don't forget to use the code. Don't listen to get 15% off your first order. Say it with me. Little Saints. A real cocktail experience without the alcohol. Little Saints products are non alcoholic. Functional ingredients are not intended to diagnose, treatment or cure any condition.

[A]

So for those of you on video, you'll notice something a little different. I'm sitting in my dad's chair. He had to step away. Got called for a little family emergency. But I'm here.

[C]

Yeah, so am I.

[A]

Near you. You haven't moved.

[C]

I haven't moved. No, I've just been sitting here.

[A]

We've got one more question from a listener today and I'll read it for you, Mom.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

They wrote dear Catherine and Mandy Gideon.

[C]

For the moment, yeah.

[A]

Should you give an apology to get someone to speak to you? I have a family member who hasn't spoken to me in years. I've tried everything. Said I would meet them and a therapist or mediator or clergy to discuss the situation. No dice. They are very black and white. No gray. They said I must apologize first. I think we both owe each other an apology. It wasn't a trivial matter, but it wasn't something unforgivable either. I want to move forward. I can get past it, but they can't. Deciding to shun me forever. But forever for me isn't much longer. I would like to see my great grandchildren. I have been advised to forget this cruel person if they want nothing to do with me. But other family relationships would be healed if this one were fixed. So I keep hoping. Thank you. Signed, Sad Grandma.

[C]

Oh, my God. That just breaks my heart. And it sort of terrifies me because I don't ever want to be in that position. I mean, my first thing is, why would you want to be friends, you know, with this person? But if it impacts you not being able to see your great grandchildren, which I really envy you being able to meet because I started too late for that to happen. I don't know about that, honey. I don't think I'm going to be here in 50 years. Let's be real.

[A]

50? 50 people usually have children earlier than 50. You could be here in 20 years.

[C]

In 20 years. If they started much earlier than me, if having babies was still an allowed thing and it wasn't just AI implants. Anyway, I won't get into that. This is sad grump. I think if you really believe those relationships could Be healed. You could see your great grandchildren. And if it doesn't matter to you that you both owe each other an apology, it sounds like something going on for years. I would probably just say, fine, I'm sorry for whatever I did that so hurt you. Can we move on?

[A]

Do you feel like there's been many moments in your life where you've had the thing that you thought was right and fair in a situation and you let it go in. In the project of moving forward and keeping the relationship?

[C]

I'm trying to think it. I mean, I'm such a people pleaser and I so like to keep the peace. I can't think of many things that have been hugely. I mean, I have two friendships that I couldn't get past things, but that's all. So what would you say to sad grandma?

[A]

I mean, I love the spirit of people never trying to give up when a meaningful relationship is at stake. And I also love when people can release themselves from something that is agonizing and ongoing. I think both can be superpower and. And it's hard. It's hard to say when it's time to move on. Also, like, what is this idea of, like, meeting your great grandchildren? You know, is it like, is. Is that concept worth more pain and conflicting things or. Or not? Sometimes I think we have these ideas of what something might be in our head.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Versus the reality of what it costs. But it's hard to. It's hard to say. I've not.

[C]

You've not been a grandma. I know you've not been a sad grandma. And even in your sadnesses, you've never, I don't think, had an experience that you haven't been able to somewhat compare.

[A]

But I'm not very good at showing you any sadness because what would happen.

[C]

If I showed you a little bit of. I would make you want to be happy or fix it.

[A]

You would be distracted by my sadness and be all you think about. You call your friends and tell them about my sadness. You talk about my sadness with your husband.

[B]

No.

[A]

You talk about my sadness.

[C]

No, I certainly wouldn't do that.

[A]

And then my sadness your whole life rather than just, well, thank you, but I think, oh, my son is a rounded person. He can feel happy, he can feel sad. I don't need to wear it as my burden.

[C]

Yes, that's true.

[A]

And I think it's an inviting. It's an inviting thing for parents to take their children's problems on as their own because then it's an excuse not to deal with their own lives.

[C]

Well, I think that's true. It's also a way of taking away agency from your own children. Depending on what age they are. And even if they're very young, when you interfere inappropriately, you don't give them the tools to learn how to deal with the crisis or situation. And they should come to you before you step in. And I think there's a lot of helicoptering and over involved parents right now who can't deal with their own stuff. But this.

[A]

So what if. So how about next time I feel sad?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

I'll tell you.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And you'll practice not giving a shit.

[C]

Well, no. How about the next time you feel sad, you'll tell me and I'll practice being a of part appropriately empathetic without coming up with a solution.

[A]

Okay?

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Shake on it?

[C]

All right. We're shaky on that.

[A]

Thanks, Ma. Thanks, Sad Grandma. We hope to hear from you again as happy grandma.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Let us know how you're doing down the line.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Today at the Enma, I want to do something for our hang time. I want you first to tell me if I asked you where you were at. 20 years old. Yeah, that age. If you go there immediately.

[C]

Okay, I'm lying.

[A]

Where is the location you find yourself 20 years old?

[C]

I found myself in between San Francisco and Los Angeles.

[B]

In between?

[C]

Well, I was just graduating. I was about to graduate from college, so I was.

[A]

Pick a place. You're in a time warp.

[C]

It spits you to 20 years old. I'm in the Haight Ashbury in San Francisco in my senior year of college.

[A]

Are you standing on a street?

[C]

I am in my apartment.

[A]

Are you sitting down?

[C]

Yes, I just sat down.

[A]

What are you wearing?

[C]

I am wearing some weird chartreuse striped sleeveless turtleneck that my mother picked out for me because I didn't know my own taste yet.

[A]

And can you describe what the room looks like or feels like?

[C]

It was really a beautiful old 30s rental in the Haight Ashbury. It had wood floors and some nice furniture. I was renting it either with my friend Julie Cobb from high school or Cherry Fager. Yeah.

[A]

Either of those two people were your roommates?

[C]

Yeah. I can't remember which one, but one.

[A]

Of those two people is in the other room.

[C]

Well, they were both in that house with me. I think it was probably Julie.

[A]

So you're sitting at this table. You're in chartreuse stripe. There's either Julie or. What is her name?

[C]

Sherry Fager.

[A]

Sherry Fager in the next room. Is it daytime? Nighttime?

[C]

It is. Daytime.

[A]

Okay. And if you could give that version of Kathryn Grody some advice from where you're standing right now. Oh my God, Jen, what comes to mind?

[C]

I would say don't be so afraid of being humiliated because I would always pretend I was very uncomfortable letting people know strangers how much I wanted something because I thought it hurt my pride. And so I was very. I even had somebody later in life congratulate me on getting a job I didn't get because they just. My attitude was so sort of overconfident. Or you could call it lacking in humility, I suppose.

[A]

You asked them to congratulate you?

[C]

No, they just said it was Glenn Close, actually.

[A]

Oh.

[C]

She congratulated me on getting a job I had not been offered. Oh, congratulations. No, no, you know what she did?

[A]

Why did she think you had that job?

[C]

No, she congratulated me on turning down the job I'd never been offered.

[A]

Why did she think that was?

[C]

I don't know, I. I guess she heard I'd gotten up for the. Gone up for the role and I wasn't doing it. And she gave me big congratulations because she assumed I turned it down. I did not correct her.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

So I would tell myself to not be afraid of being vulnerable and letting people know what you want something, that you want something. And I'd say be less arrogant, which is, I think when you're that young, a form of armor anyway, you don't really feel as fabulous as you're letting off. You just are afraid to be vulnerable.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so I would say to myself, be more vulnerable. Let people know what you really want and have a little friggin humility because you're not so fucking great. You're not, you know.

[A]

How do you think that 20 year old Catherine would receive that advice?

[C]

I don't think she'd pay any attention. I think she'd say, what are you talking about? I have tons of humility, I don't think I'm great and I let people know, you know, what I want or what are you talking about? She'd probably say, yeah, you know, but I share that with other young people when they ask me for advice. I say, and I say say yes to what surprises you and you hadn't planned, you know.

[A]

And do you feel less afraid of being humiliated now?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I have, I have experienced much humiliation over these last, you know, 58 years. So it's fine. And pride and I just don't think, I don't even know what those words mean anymore. Do you even Remember, you're a lot closer to 20 than I was. Do you remember yourself at 20?

[A]

At 20. At 20, where are you? I think I was. I was a nanny from my old English teacher's. 3 year old and 5 year old who I'm still very close to. Susie Reinhart and Cole and Hazel.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Hazel's three years old now. She's singing and dancing in college. But what would I tell myself? 20 years old, not used to asking myself questions.

[C]

I know, honey. I wanted. I thought it was fair since I've got you in this rare position I.

[A]

Would tell myself.

[C]

To.

[A]

I didn't have. I didn't have an iPhone. I didn't have a smartphone.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And they existed at that time. I'd just gotten a flip phone.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I'd maybe tell myself never to get one.

[C]

Never to get any kind of phone.

[B]

No.

[A]

Never to get a smartphone.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Just. There are people in the world who could do that. If I could write down the benefits of my life from doing that, I might have done that. And to. Yeah. Not take myself so seriously, which I think I got better at in the later years, but maybe 20 to. Yeah, 25.

[C]

We're very serious.

[A]

I don't know.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that true? Was I. I don't know.

[C]

You were pretty joyful to be around always.

[A]

Well, thanks for sharing that, Mom.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

How does it feel having me in this seat?

[C]

Very nice. Very relaxing.

[A]

If dad comes back, do you think I should just, I don't know, flip.

[C]

A. Flip a coin to see this.

[A]

Probably never happen again?

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Thanks so much for joining us here. We want to hear from you more questions, stories, advice, triumphs, recipes, jokes, stories, descriptions of shapes and colors, how you're.

[C]

Managing in these times to have humor.

[A]

And what you smell like, what you don't smell like. You can email [e-mail] or check out our socials for an easy way to send us a voice note. Thanks so much for being here. And please remember, do not listen to us. Don't listen to us.

[C]

Don't listen to us. Really? Seriously, don't. I can hear you all saying we're not. That's it. Goodbye.

[A]

Goodbye. Don't Listen to Us is a Lemonada Media original hosted by Mandy Patinkin, Kathryn Grody and Gideon Grody Patinkin. Created by Katrina Onstad, Debbie Pacheco and Gideon Grody Patinkin. Executive producers are Kathryn Grody, Gideon Grody Patinkin, Mandy Podinkin, Katrina Onstadt, Debbie Pacheco Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Whittles Wax. Our engineer is Ryan Derringer of Welterweight Sound. Video and audio production by Mark Whiteway of Bellows Media. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Media Premium yet, now's the perfect time. You can hear don't listen to us completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like behind the scenes conversations, questions so weird they didn't make it on air, Becky the Dog shenanigans and more. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple podcasts, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. Hi everyone. Gideon here. Mandy and Catherine are going to be at the 92nd Street Y in New York on Thursday, January 22nd at 7:30pM they'll be on stage talking with the one and only Faith Salee from CBS Sunday Morning about our podcast. Don't listen to us about their marriage, about New York and about anything else that they can think of. You can get tickets to see the talk in person or online by going to 92ny.org that's 92ny.org.