How Do You Forgive Yourself?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Don't Listen To Us – “How Do You Forgive Yourself?”

Hosts: Mandy Patinkin, Kathryn Grody, Gideon Grody Patinkin
Guest: Maureen Laffey (Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner)
Release Date: May 6, 2026
Network: Lemonada Media

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Overview:

This rich, moving episode dives into the topic of self-forgiveness, tackling a listener’s question about how to move past mistakes, especially when struggling with addiction and shame. The episode features a heartfelt segment with the Patinkin-Grody family’s longtime friend Maureen Laffey, whose expertise and personal stories spark a nuanced, compassionate conversation about mental health, resilience, and self-compassion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction and Warm-Up Banter

• The episode opens with lighthearted chatter about Mandy’s beard, Kathryn's admiration for it, and some family teasing—setting the tone for candid, loving, and irreverent discussion.
  • “She can't keep her hands off me. Ridiculous sharing of our personal life. It's just totally embarrassing.” – Mandy Patinkin (00:16)
  • “If I ever start growing a beard, I just want to make an announcement. Take me to one of those places and get it permanently removed.” – Kathryn Grody (02:06)

2. Introducing Maureen Laffey

• Maureen is introduced not only as a mental health professional, but also as a significant, longstanding friend of the family. The hosts and Maureen reminisce about first meetings and the enduring chemistry of their friendships.
  • “She's an extraordinary...one of the most extraordinary human beings we've ever met, I think. Look, there's no accounting for chemistry. We had chemistry from the beginning. Just like magnets drawn toward each other.” – Kathryn Grody (15:45)
• Maureen recounts her years caring for Jack, a talented theater director who became a quadriplegic, and how that role shaped their familial friendship.
  • “He was a quadriplegic...a lot of young people who basically were needed to just, like, alter their life. And we would have to spend a lot of time kind of introducing them to, like, this could be...just be different.” – Maureen Laffey (16:46–17:35)

3. Listener’s Question: How Do You Forgive Yourself?

(Segment begins at 20:53)

• Michael, a 41-year-old listener, shares about his lifelong struggle with depression and alcoholism, repeated relapses, and difficulties with self-forgiveness:
  • “As a man in your 40s, how do you forgive yourself for the mistakes that you made? That's the hardest part. ... I can't really forgive myself for a lot of things I did wrong when I was younger.” – Michael (21:01)

Advice and Reflections (22:18 onward)

a. Maureen Laffey’s Clinical and Personal Response

• Maureen stresses the resilience and progress in simply persisting:
  • “You keep at it. I mean, you're talking about relapsing, but you keep showing up.” (22:18)
  • She highlights that people are often more compassionate to others than to themselves, and invites Michael to offer himself the same grace he would a loved one.
    • “If someone you dearly love came to you and said, ‘I've done this...and I'm so sorry,’ what would you do? ...Just extend that to yourself.” (23:02)
  • She normalizes that maladaptive behaviors often begin as survival strategies, and changing them is messy and slow. Each return to sobriety builds resilience even if it doesn’t feel that way.

b. Kathryn Grody’s Gentle Wisdom

• Kathryn offers hope, emphasizes the value of seeking sobriety and healing, and normalizes imperfection:
  • “41 is incredibly young. And I'm so happy for you that you are exploring all the ways that you want to live in the world as a sober, more awake person.” (25:20)
  • “No human is perfect. None. ... If you could accept that you're human like the rest of us...” (25:40)
  • She proposes a ritual—writing down regrets and burning the paper—to physically enact letting go, focusing energy on the future instead of the unchangeable past.
    • “What I wish for you is not to take up the next 41 years of your life with looking backwards...” (26:41)

c. Mandy Patinkin’s Personal Story

• Mandy shares his own struggles with depression and the wish that—if only his issue was addiction—it could be more concrete to battle.
  • “I struggled with depression a lot. ...I remember wishing that I was an alcoholic so that there would be something I could stop, because I wasn't an alcoholic.” (27:00)
• Shares a turning point from his therapist:
  • “‘Are you a deity?’ ...‘No, I’m just a human being.’ ...‘If you're not a deity, then human beings make mistakes, and that's okay. ... Forgiving oneself is a wonderful thing if you can do it. ... At those moments ... just say to yourself, ‘I’m not a deity. I’m a human being. I made a mistake.’” (28:18)

d. On Shame and Community

• Maureen encourages Michael to find community, noting that shame thrives in isolation and is often eased when people connect with others facing similar challenges.
  • “You will hear stories that ... you will identify, and that shame will be...will lighten. It'll lighten.” – Maureen Laffey (29:57)

4. The Many Paths to Sobriety

(Segment starts approx. 30:53)

• Gideon opens a discussion about different recovery modalities; Maureen validates that AA or groups work for some, but not all.
  • Maureen describes trying Al-Anon but being told to leave the relationship—which didn’t work for her:
    • “It was such a, like a, kind of like a black or white thing. And so that wasn't right for me at that time. ...I don't think there's one way for everyone.” (32:14–33:03)
• The group affirms that behavioral therapies, medications, and many other support tools may all play roles; Mandy stresses “There are people that need to be on medications no matter what...and then there are others that are uncomfortable and want to be off those medications. And I was one of those people.” (33:36)
• Flexibility and individual differences are key.
  • “I think we get into trouble when we're making massive generalizations about life and we don't maintain the flexibility to adjust and pivot when new details are [present].” – Gideon Grody Patinkin (36:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“If someone you dearly love came to you and said, ‘I've done this...and I'm so sorry,’ … Just extend that to yourself.”
– Maureen Laffey (23:02)

“What I wish for you is not to take up the next 41 years of your life with looking backwards ... What can change is the next 41 years, how you are with everybody.”
– Kathryn Grody (26:41)

“Are you a deity? ... If you're not a deity, then human beings make mistakes, and that's okay ... Say to yourself, right, I'm not a deity. I'm a human being. I made a mistake. ... It helped me. It set me free.”
– Mandy Patinkin (28:18)

“The shame that's attached to these things you feel ... you will hear stories that ... you will identify and that shame will be—will lighten ...”
– Maureen Laffey (29:57)

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5. Describing Each Other in One Word

(36:24–38:09)

A warm, affectionate round where each host and guest sums up the others in a single word (or inventive phrase):

• Kathryn Grody: “a beast” (in the best way, full of energy and ideas) – Maureen Laffey (36:39)
• Mandy Patinkin: “generous without strings attached” – Maureen Laffey (36:47)
• Both Kathryn and Maureen: “alive”, “the northern lights” – Mandy Patinkin (37:07–37:21)
• Mandy: “Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever surprising me. Changing, open to the unexpected impossibility.” (Kathryn, 37:33)
• Maureen: “curious, daring, adventurous ... a force of nature ... truly the northern lights.” (Kathryn)

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Takeaways

• Self-forgiveness is difficult but possible: Progress is in the persistence, not the perfection.
• Be as compassionate to yourself as you are to those you love.
• Pathways to sobriety and healing vary: There’s no single “right” way—community, therapy, ritual, medication, and support all matter; flexibility is key.
• Shame grows in isolation but eases in connection.
• We are not alone in our mistakes—being human means being imperfect.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:08 – Beard banter and family dynamic
• 11:52 – Maureen Laffey introduced; friendship origin stories
• 20:53 – Listener Michael’s question about self-forgiveness
• 22:18 – Maureen, Kathryn, and Mandy’s insights on addiction, shame, and self-forgiveness
• 30:53 – Discussion on different paths to sobriety and healing
• 36:24 – “Describe each other in one word” segment

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Tone

Candid, loving, occasionally irreverent, deeply empathetic—true to the Patinkin-Grody family’s familial warmth and Maureen’s professional and compassionate presence.

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End Note:
“Just remember, don’t listen to us.” – Maureen Laffey (39:16)
“We’re all a mess. Oh, my God.” – Becky the Dog

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For more: Email questions or voice notes to the show, and consider supporting the International Rescue Committee in honor of Mandy’s (possibly missed) birthday.

Transcript

[Maureen Laffey]

Lemonade.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Today on our podcast, don't listen to us. What's your feeling about Dad's beard?

[Kathryn Grody]

I love it. I think it's so stunning. It's very.

[Mandy Patinkin]

She can't keep her hands off me. Ridiculous sharing of our personal life. It's just totally embarrassing.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Sometimes miracles happen.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah. A boundary.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

The worst. Look at that.

[Mandy Patinkin]

A boundary.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Let me chisel away at it. What kind of stuff? The guest is approaching. Can you feel their energy?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yes, it's a male.

[Kathryn Grody]

Today, don't even say.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Our friend Maureen Laffey, nurse practitioner, stops by.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I love this man.

[Kathryn Grody]

A real expert that you should listen to.

[Maureen Laffey]

That's nice.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

A listener asks, how do you forgive yourself?

[Maureen Laffey]

I often find people who can't forgive themselves are so readily able to forgive everyone else. Extend that to yourself.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

And we find out how to describe my mom in one word.

[Maureen Laffey]

Catherine Grody is a beast.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Before everything descends into complete happiness.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, no, don't make that. Don't make me happy.

[Becky (dog)]

Wear a mask. We're shelves again. We're all a mask. Oh, my God.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Coming up on Don't Listen to Us.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Well, beard is quite the conversation piece I'm noticing.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Do you feel it's changing your personality? The bigger it.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, no, no. Actually, what's kind of stunning to me is it's so light. You don't feel it.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Right.

[Mandy Patinkin]

So it's kind of bizarre that anybody's even talking about it. Except when I look in the mirror and I go, oh, my God, it's all over the place. I gotta kinda tuck it in and. But it's. It's really weird. You'd think that there'd be some weight that you'd feel to it.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah, it looks like it's 10 to 15 pounds.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Well, it isn't. It doesn't weigh anything.

[Kathryn Grody]

Oh, my God.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

What's your feeling?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Is this bothering this conversation?

[Kathryn Grody]

I'm just curious about this conversation.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Aren't you glad you don't have a beard?

[Kathryn Grody]

Well, you don't.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Well, no, no. Put your hand up.

[Kathryn Grody]

If I ever start growing a beard, I just want to make an announcement. Take me to one of those places and get it permanently removed. That is one thing I cannot deal with.

[Becky (dog)]

Great.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

What's your feeling about Dad's beard?

[Kathryn Grody]

I love it. I think it's so stunning. It's very.

[Mandy Patinkin]

She can't keep her hands off me, you know. It's really incredible.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Have you ever. You've not been jealous of a beard, though? If you could have a beard.

[Kathryn Grody]

Oh, I think it's a very cool thing. For men.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Would you have it if you could have it on your face, dad style beard. Would you do it for a day just to have the experience?

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah, as long as I wasn't growing it for real.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

But you'd do it for a day or a week. How long would you want that?

[Quince Advertiser]

I love the.

[Kathryn Grody]

I just think that's a cool thing about being men, that you can change your face like that. I met you with a beard.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah. And then I told story. Have we told the story on this podcast or many other times?

[Kathryn Grody]

I think many other times.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Ridiculous sharing of our personal lives. Yeah.

[Becky (dog)]

Really.

[Mandy Patinkin]

It's just totally embarrassing.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Mom, do you remember your comment about my beard that one time you were looking at me quizzically like you had something to say, and you kept looking at my beard and I said, what? And you said. It's just. I said, what? What is it you say? Wasn't the beard is a little. What did you say?

[Mandy Patinkin]

What did you say?

[Maureen Laffey]

I don't want to say.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Say it. I don't want to hear. I don't remember.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

He said the beard is a little pubicy.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Pubicky.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Told her son he's got a bunch of pubic hair on his face.

[Mandy Patinkin]

When was this? In the beginning.

[Kathryn Grody]

Well, at one point.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Well, my beards look the exact same for.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, it hasn't. No, it hasn't. It's actually kind of filled out nicely.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah.

[Kathryn Grody]

Filled out nicely. No, it's not. I take that back. I think you look beautiful with a beard or without it. I just love periodically seeing your whole face.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I do, too. And Isaac's face. And both of you have beards all the time. And I love it when I don't have a job. I'm growing this for a potential job. And so the job may happen or it may not, but chances are, if the job fades, what do you. Which are you yawning? I'm speaking. You must be yawning.

[Kathryn Grody]

Sorry. I tried to stifle it. Honey, I'm a little tired.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Don't stifle a yawn.

[Kathryn Grody]

I didn't have good dreams.

[Mandy Patinkin]

What would you want me to do if I don't have to keep the beard? You want me to keep it? I like it, like, long like this.

[Kathryn Grody]

Well, no, I think you could trim it and not have it be quite so, you know, go to a barber and have them trim it.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

What was your bad dream?

[Quince Advertiser]

I am just.

[Kathryn Grody]

Stuff.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Stuff.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Ah, a boundary.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

That's the worst. Look at that.

[Mandy Patinkin]

A boundary.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Let me chisel away at it. What kind of stuff?

[Mandy Patinkin]

The Grody Patinkins seem to have demonstrated a boundary. There are exceptions to.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

We have a very special guest here today.

[Kathryn Grody]

I can't imagine.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Animal, mineral or vegetable?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

We're gonna bring a chair. Is our guest an animal, a mineral or a vegetable?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah.

[Kathryn Grody]

Is it somebody we know?

[Mandy Patinkin]

It's an animal.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Do you think it's somebody you know?

[Kathryn Grody]

No, I have a feeling this time it's not somebody we know.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I don't know an animal that can converse with us. And this is initially a radio medium, audio medium.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Okay, now listen. Our guest is walking in the door. Guests, you can come towards the table. Don't turn around. I want you to see if you can sense who it is.

[Mandy Patinkin]

How could the guest hear you say, walk toward the table?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

The door was closed and Becky did go up.

[Kathryn Grody]

Oh, there's Becky down.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Come on, guest.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Come closer.

[Kathryn Grody]

Oh, it must be Alon.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Come closer.

[Kathryn Grody]

Is it Alon?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

No. The guest is approaching. Can you feel their energy?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yes, it's a male.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Can you. It's male energy.

[Mandy Patinkin]

It's a male energy.

[Kathryn Grody]

Definitely male.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Isaac? No, it's somebody you know very well.

[Mandy Patinkin]

It's Jude.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Can you feel their energy? Turn around.

[Kathryn Grody]

Don't even say turn around.

[Becky (dog)]

Oh, my God,

[Mandy Patinkin]

I love this man.

[Becky (dog)]

You're not supposed to be here now. Talk to your son. Oh, my. Talk to your son.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

It's our friend Maureen. The one and only Maureen Laffy.

[Quince Advertiser]

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[Kathryn Grody]

out at home with our dog, Becky.

[Quince Advertiser]

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[Mandy Patinkin]

I'm excited that you're here.

[Becky (dog)]

Hi.

[Kathryn Grody]

Okay.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Let me introduce our guest. We know what we're talking about. This is our very special guest, our dear friend, Maureen Laffey. Maureen is one of our oldest friends, an old neighbor, a dog person, and a psychiatric nurse practitioner.

[Maureen Laffey]

In another life, playwright.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I mean, that's.

[Becky (dog)]

Oh, God. Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You wrote a great book.

[Kathryn Grody]

You've written several times.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Let me ask a question. How did you guys all meet?

[Kathryn Grody]

Well, that's gonna take up the whole thing.

[Mandy Patinkin]

What's the third? I can do it fast. What's the first?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Second.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Let's have her tell. Let's have Maureen tell.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

She's the guest.

[Maureen Laffey]

We pulled up to 89th, near Broadway. There's a hydrant, so we always would get a cab there, get out of the cab. And I was helping me and Jack. Jack and I. Who you guys knew before.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yes.

[Maureen Laffey]

But you happen to live around the corner, but you work together.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah, we worked. He was a great director.

[Maureen Laffey]

Yeah. So I would see Katherine kind of secretly on the street with the dogs.

[Becky (dog)]

The dogs walking.

[Maureen Laffey]

Isaac would walk the dogs like this, like with a lax leash.

[Becky (dog)]

So I would see you.

[Maureen Laffey]

But this is the first time you and Mandy were walking across the street and Jack and I were getting out of the cab and I was helping Jack out of the cab. And it was late at night. It was like 9:30.

[Becky (dog)]

You don't know.

[Kathryn Grody]

It's a totally different memory than mine.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You let her finish.

[Maureen Laffey]

I got Jack's wheelchair set up, got

[Becky (dog)]

him out of the cab.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Did you say what you were doing for Jack? What was Your position.

[Maureen Laffey]

I was. We were out for the evening. He was disabled in a wheelchair. So I would get out of the cab, get in the back, get the wheelchair out of the trunk, set it up, and I would just transfer him.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You were his caregiver?

[Maureen Laffey]

Yes. From the car to the wheelchair. And Catherine and Mandy, who lived around the corner, happened to be passing along Broadway. And they were like, Jack.

[Becky (dog)]

And I just remember being like, wait a minute, wait, wait, wait. Like, like trying to get him in. And he was like, hi. And I was like, wait, wait, wait. Like, is he in? Is he gonna fall? Is he sad? And you guys were like, it's so

[Maureen Laffey]

good to see you.

[Becky (dog)]

Like, just.

[Maureen Laffey]

And I'll never forget it.

[Kathryn Grody]

Okay, this is a totally different memory. I thought the first time I met you, it was night and you were going up 89th and you were skinny, multi colored hair.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Skinny, like now.

[Kathryn Grody]

No, really. And a lot of earrings and 80s, you know. Really?

[Mandy Patinkin]

How old were you?

[Maureen Laffey]

20s?

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah, 20s. And you just looked like this sort of punk person pushing, just.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You were punk. You had the hair, the whole thing going.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Maureen has always been hardcore one way or another.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah, yeah.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

You know, one of my earliest memories, I ran into you on the street about five minutes after I had my first kiss when I was 14 years old. So you saw me at my happiest. I'd probably ever been.

[Becky (dog)]

I remember like soon after we ready

[Mandy Patinkin]

to be able to kiss you whenever you want.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Maureen Laffey]

But then you were like, did I look different? And I was like, did I say that?

[Becky (dog)]

Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh my God.

[Kathryn Grody]

So you've known each other because you know each other since you were like nine?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Vicky, did you.

[Kathryn Grody]

Vicky?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah. I'd been waiting for. How was that first kiss? What?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

It felt like the whole world change.

[Maureen Laffey]

Did I look different?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Did I look different?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I was asking Maureen if I looked different.

[Mandy Patinkin]

How old were you?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I was 14. 14.

[Mandy Patinkin]

First.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

And was that before?

[Maureen Laffey]

After the blonde hair with the dots, the leopard.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

That was after. Oh, yeah. Nobody was kissing me when I had leopard hair.

[Becky (dog)]

I thought.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I thought that's what would do it.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Leopard hair was 13. That was bar mitzvah.

[Kathryn Grody]

That's what we're saying, honey.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah, that's right. Why do you guys think your friendship has been so enduring all these years? Wow. Let's start off.

[Maureen Laffey]

They're dynamic, phenomenal people. Well, lucky me.

[Kathryn Grody]

She's an extraordinary. One of the most extraordinary human beings we've ever met, I think. Look, there's no accounting for chemistry. We had chemistry from the beginning. Just like magnets drawn toward each other. She was very different than any of my other friends. Not Jewish. Not in the theater immediately.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Exactly.

[Kathryn Grody]

Irish. Irish.

[Becky (dog)]

Irish.

[Booking.com Advertiser]

Full of life.

[Kathryn Grody]

A nurse actually has, you know, a profession that's really helpful to people.

[Booking.com Advertiser]

But she was full of life.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Full of life like no one we ever knew.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah. And.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And she was taking care of our

[Kathryn Grody]

friend, and she was taking. But she was also caregiver. Doesn't say what this was. This was a very profound, intimate relationship. They lived next door, right around the corner. Right around the corner, which made it great. And. And we loved Jack. And I had an old history with him before he was disabled.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Just so they understand the level of Jack's disability. Just describe was he. What was his.

[Maureen Laffey]

He was a quadriplegic.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Quadriplegic.

[Julie Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Maureen Laffey]

He had a spinal cord injury.

[Mandy Patinkin]

When you went to work at NYU Rusk as a young. How old were you? 20.

[Maureen Laffey]

I was 22.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, 22. Did you have specific experience working with paraplegics? No. Nuts.

[Maureen Laffey]

But it was. I loved it because it was like, the demographic was a lot of young people who had, like, a lot of, like, risk behavior injuries.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Right.

[Maureen Laffey]

So skiing, motorcycles, like, depending on, like, the season.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Diving into pools.

[Maureen Laffey]

Yeah. So it was a. It was just a. Like a floor of young people of a lot of young people who basically were needed to just, like, alter their life. And we would have to spend a lot of time kind of introducing them to, like, this could be. Just. This will be. Just be different.

[Kathryn Grody]

Didn't you hear about all these sort of theater people? What was the woman that you liked and Margaret.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You said Margaret.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Well, yes, because Jack was a theater director.

[Maureen Laffey]

Yes.

[Kathryn Grody]

The youngest person to win a Tony for directing ever, and that was the Elephant Man.

[Mandy Patinkin]

He directed the Elephant man on Broadway.

[Kathryn Grody]

I think this was two years before his accident.

[Maureen Laffey]

It was. Yeah, it was really.

[Mandy Patinkin]

It was a big, big deal.

[Maureen Laffey]

And he had been to la and he directed a movie, and he had been directing. It was like.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, yeah, he was on it. He was on the run.

[Maureen Laffey]

Yeah. And he was young. He was a young guy. And so the clerk just one day said, like, you know, oh, send her up the private elevator. And I was like, who's coming up the private element? They said, ann. Margaret. And that just. I was like. And I had never met Jack, and I never laid eyes on him. So I went to the elevator, I grabbed Rosie DeVito, I put lipstick on her, and I was like, just like, block it. So that when the elevator's open, at least I'll be able to say, like, hi, can I help you? And then I'll hear Ann Margaret say yes, like a breathy voice.

[Becky (dog)]

So I was like, just popping up like an IV cuff on.

[Maureen Laffey]

Poor Rosie DeVito, who was in a wheelchair, could not speak aphasic. And sure enough, the door opened and I heard, excuse me. And I turned down. It was like Ann Morgan and her husband Roger Smith. And she's like, I'm here to see Jack Hoffman.

[Becky (dog)]

I was like, jack, let me go bring ya.

[Maureen Laffey]

And I opened the door to Jack's room, and it was the first time I laid eyes on him. And I couldn't believe. Believe how young he was. He was like a young, stunning man. And I was like, jack, a friend's here to visit you. Your name? She's like, ann Margaret. And I was like, ann. Ann. So enjoy your visit.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

And I'm picking up that Ann Margret was apparently a very special person.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yes, she was a famous.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You don't know who Ann Margaret was?

[Becky (dog)]

Oh, my God.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Are you serious? You don't know who Ann Margaret was?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I get this.

[Kathryn Grody]

Bye Bye Birdie.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I think she was involved.

[Becky (dog)]

Elvis Presley is.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You don't know who Ann Margaret is?

[Maureen Laffey]

This is.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Who are these people?

[Becky (dog)]

It's so sa.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh, my God.

[Maureen Laffey]

The sadness.

[Mandy Patinkin]

But anyway.

[Maureen Laffey]

And it was just like that for years. It was years.

[Kathryn Grody]

How many years?

[Maureen Laffey]

It ended up being 19 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 19 years. But we went to China. We lived there for six months. It was like this. Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

An unusual relationship.

[Maureen Laffey]

Yeah. It was an odd. No one understood it.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Maureen Laffey]

No one didn't understand it.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I didn't understand it. I understood that you were really profoundly connected, and that was very moving to us. We talked about it all the time, Catherine and I, and we didn't know all the details. It was none of our business. But we were very grateful for both of you that you had each other, you know, that's what I remember.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Maureen is one of the smartest people we know because she works in mental health. We wanted her to help us with a question that we received that we thought was powerful. And we know we've got limitations, so it's fun to bring in an expert

[Mandy Patinkin]

every now and then.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

We should listen to. Maureen again is a psychiatric nurse practitioner. And we're gonna put on our headphones and listen to a voice note.

[Mandy Patinkin]

There you go, Mo. Those are your headphones.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah. We're gonna listen to a voice note from Michael.

[Maureen Laffey]

Have you heard this?

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, we don't hear anything. We didn't even know you were coming.

[Kathryn Grody]

We had no idea.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Everything's a surprise for Us.

[Maureen Laffey]

That's nice.

[Booking.com Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Here's a voice note from Michael.

[Michael (voice note caller)]

Thanks so much for the opportunity to share. I'm a 41 year old man and I, I struggle with depression and alcoholism my entire life. And, you know, I've almost, I've almost kicked the booze today. I relapsed for the 800th time after being sober for 27 days. I'm a pretty functional alcoholic. I have a career and I'm stable and it's been fine for years, but it's been a real struggle. And, you know, I'm managing it with therapy and trying to get better with fitness and all that. So in that regard, I'm, I'm okay. But I think my main question is, you know, as a man in your 40s, how do you forgive yourself for the mistakes that you made? That's the hardest part. You know, I pursued spirituality. I've tried to do some deep work in therapy and really try to take a hard look in the mirror. But I think one of the reasons why I keep having small relapses and slipping is because I just, I can't really forgive myself for a lot of things I did wrong when I was younger. Some of these things were silly and they weren't even that big, but it happened when I was in my 20s. Some of these things happened when I was in my 30s. And I'm just trying to find my way to, to forgive myself. And it's, it's really hard and. Yeah, thanks.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah. Just curious what your initial.

[Maureen Laffey]

You know, it's just heartbreaking because I work with a lot of people who struggle, so it's heartbreaking to hear people struggle. I mean, the good news is, Michael, you keep at it. I mean, you're talking about relapsing, but you keep showing up. And, and I often find people who can't forgive themselves are so readily able to forgive everyone else and how hard it is for us to do that and to show love to ourselves. And just if you, I mean, think of people in your life, if someone you dearly love came to you and said, like, I've done this, and I know I've done this to you and I've done this to other people, and I'm so sorry. Like, what would you do, like, immediately to someone you love, you would forgive them. So just extend that to yourself. You know, we develop behavior so young and we adapt like as little people in order to, like, navigate this chaotic, crazy world. Often I'm such a huge, firm believer and people can change and the Fact that Michael, you keep, you know, approaching sobriety and it's. You are gaining resiliency and that it's. The process is messy and I think it's hard to acknowledge small gains. But every time you relapse, you keep showing up and that is gaining resiliency and it's making a change because the behavior might be maladaptive now after all these years. It was embedded at a time when

[Mandy Patinkin]

does that mean maladaptive.

[Maureen Laffey]

It worked as maybe like a young person who did things that were like more self destructive or harming because it was like you hadn't get through something. So as a young person, you kind of figure out how to work around and how this worked. And this made me feel good. And now I think he's 41, has a career and he's hanging on, but there's something that's no longer working. It's not working anymore. Like the booze may not be helping or getting through, but it's a behavior that we keep falling back on. Familiar, familiar. And it's embedded the circuit in our brain and our body and our reflexes. That's our go to. He's been doing it for like maybe four decades.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Maureen Laffey]

So it's just kind of finding a new way, but knowing that the showing up is creating a new way and he's never giving up. Yeah, he's explored spirituality and he's in therapy and he wants to. Yeah, that's huge.

[Kathryn Grody]

That's huge. Michael, I have some friends that have struggled with this and they're. I wish they were where you were. I mean, you acknowledge it's a problem. You acknowledge you go backwards and then you try to go forward again. I want to say first off that I believe from my perspective, 41 is incredibly young. And I'm so happy for you that you are exploring all the ways that you want to live in the world as a sober, more awake person, as I'm sure you've heard that term, if you've studied spirituality or any kind of Buddhism, and to give yourself credit for that desire is enormous to me. And, you know, forgiving yourself. No human is perfect. None. You know, so that in some ways, if you could accept that you're human like the rest of us, I think that if you give yourself as much attention on what you are trying to overcome and maybe make a list of all the things that you feel you can't forgive yourself and have a ritual, write it down, take it out and burn it and let it go into the atmosphere. Any kind of ritual. I Mean, I think what I wish for you is not to take up the next 41 years of your life with looking backwards to what you wish you had done differently, which that's fixed.

[Maureen Laffey]

Like, that cannot be changed. That can be changed, but can be changed.

[Kathryn Grody]

What can change is the next 41 years, how you are with everybody. And what Maureen said is how you mostly forgive yourself and move on.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Do you know we're here to cheerlead you, Michael. I also want to share with you that I've said it in other ways before, maybe a little clearer this moment. I struggled with depression a lot. And I remember wishing that I was an alcoholic so that there would be something I could stop, because I wasn't an alcoholic. I just knew if I drank or I dropped acid once, I knew if I did it again, I'd be dead. I knew if I did a lot of cocaine, I'd be dead very quickly. And I knew if I drank, there was not enough alcohol in the world to calm me down. So for some reason, I was just able to say, that's committing suicide for Mandy. And I was able to stop doing it, but it didn't stop my depressions and my struggles and my mood ups and downs, and I couldn't find ways to forgive myself. I worked at it for years with wonderful therapists and my wife and my children. Everybody was loving Maureen, everybody loving to me about it, but I couldn't break it. And then I had this doc that really said something to me, like those little grandchildren of mine say, read it to me again. Read it to me again. And this time, something was said to me that actually the nickel dropped and the light bulb went off. And. And as a Jew, if somebody said, what does being Jewish mean to you? I always would have said, it means forgiveness and compassion, which is another Yiddish word. I think it's Yiddish. I don't think it's Hebrew or rahmounis, which means compassion. And I said, that was a Jew. That was what being a Jew meant to me, forgiveness. And then this teacher of mine, therapist, teacher, friend, said to me, are you a deity? I said, what? He said, are you a deity? I said, no, I'm just a human being. He said, so why? Why don't you make mistakes? I said, yes, well, if you're not a deity, then human beings make mistakes, and that's okay. You don't have to forgive every single mistake. You're a human being, and human beings make mistakes. And so I think forgiving oneself is a wonderful thing if you can do it. And at those moments or incidents in your existence where you just can't get there. Say to yourself, right, I'm not a deity. I'm a human being. I made a mistake. I'm not a killer. I'm not an insane crossed wire person where I'm a serial killer doing horrible things to human beings. I'm a good human being who makes mistakes like most human beings do. And just, it helped me. It set me free. It stopped me on this endless ice climb up Everest with no boots or cleats or anything to just say, it's okay, it's okay, we all do it, it's okay.

[Maureen Laffey]

And the shame that's attached to these things you feel. And so I would really encourage you, Michael, to see if you can find a. I don't know if you're in a community or in like a group space or you will hear things that you think you're the only one. You will hear stories that. That other people, you will identify and that shame will be. Will lighten. It'll lighten.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I wonder if he's been doing that alone.

[Maureen Laffey]

Yeah, because with depression, especially the isolation and that, you withdraw and you white knuckle it.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I love getting older, Michael, because you actually are able to change and learn things. Some of it is just letting go of what you can't change and embracing the things you can.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Maureen, I'm curious. Something I heard a little while ago. You know, there's so much representation of AA in movies, in film, that I think a lot of people have the sense that that's like the only way to get sober or the only thing that works and that. And, you know, this kind of depiction that if you fall off the wagon and have one shot, you're gonna be like drinking a whole bottle of vodka that night and ruining your life before you can get back on it. And, you know, here's Michael, who's been, you know, he's relapsed 100 times, but that also means he's had 800 chunks of time. He's been handling that and he's got another chance.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah. Can you just speak a little bit

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

to the breadth of ways that there are to approach sobriety? Because I feel like that's something that we really don't hear a lot about.

[Maureen Laffey]

Yeah, I mean, I was. I was struggling with an eating disorder. I tried groups. It wasn't for me. I was with someone who was. Who was an alcoholic. And I went to, like, I went to an Al Anon meeting. And I remember the first meeting, like, I shared and someone said, you've gotta, you've gotta, you've gotta leave. That was not what, where I was, what I, what I could have done. So I never went back.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Why did they say you have to leave?

[Maureen Laffey]

Because they were just kind of like, you're living with someone who's an alcoholic. You cannot be in a relationship with someone like that. They're unable to put you first. They will put alcohol. Like there was this lit.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh, you have to leave the relationship.

[Maureen Laffey]

The relationship.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I thought you meant the grooming.

[Maureen Laffey]

No, no, no, no. And it was such a, like a, kind of like a black or white thing. And so that wasn't right for me at that time. So I kind of chose a different road, a longer path probably, but it worked for me. And so I don't think there's one way for everyone. But I think if you start letting people in and not kind of being so secretive and isolated with this, with this, I think you'll find like, there are, there is one person, there is maybe like a couple people. You might find people that, that you know that are struggling with it.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

And there's also like, from my understanding, approaches that are medication along with behavioral therapy, along with like craving things that

[Mandy Patinkin]

there's, there's like works with people like

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

that all the time, like 25 different things.

[Maureen Laffey]

There's not. No one way.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

So that if you're trying something repeatedly and it feels like it's not working or not working the way you. It doesn't mean you're not capable of finding your sobriety. It just means either you need to try that way or try a new method.

[Maureen Laffey]

A new method.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I want to just mention that for a minute. At one point in my life, with my struggles with depression, I took some antidepressants. They probably helped me a good deal at a certain point. But then I wasn't comfortable and I wanted to get a. I had a doctor once who wouldn't treat me unless I was on antidepressants. He said for like my whole life. And we just said, fuck you and walked away. But I want to say something and I want to preface it by saying this. There are people that need to be on medications no matter what. You listen to your practitioners, your doctors, your people that you trust. And if you need those medications, you take them. They are life saving and they are a gift to you and to the world. And then there are others that are uncomfortable and want to be off those medications. And I was one of those people. And what, what I learned from my doc because I so Wanted to be off these meds that he said, I don't think you need to be on them. And what he said to me, that really clicked for me was that how hard it is to just get through the simplest things in life. When we take drugs or alcohol or certain medicines, what they all do, even the good medicines, they put part of your brain to sleep. They calm it down, calm it down for those who are troubled and let them have a quality life. Those who don't need that calming down because they need all the parts of their brain they can muster, can get

[Maureen Laffey]

off it all the time.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And part of what let me put those pills in the toilet and never ask for them again was understanding that I needed every ounce of my brain awake and not asleep or resting. Resting. If you're meditating, Very different situation.

[Maureen Laffey]

And sometimes medicine is really just to, like you said, kind of like you just lower the volume so you can kind of start working your way through it.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Maureen Laffey]

And then it's like you work your way. You start establishing new behaviors, new responses. You like, kind of like you change, and then by the time you kind of come through that, it's like you don't need the medicine.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I don't think I would have gotten to that point without the medicines that really gifted therapists guided me and then waited a long time before they prescribed it. Then they did, and they helped me, and then they didn't help me after a while, but it was years. And so it's really complex.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I think we get into trouble when we're making massive generalizations about life and we don't maintain the flexibility to adjust and pivot when new details are.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And just like, none of these fingerprints are alike.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah. Guys, this has been so wonderful. Maureen, thank you so much for coming on.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Thank you.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Can I say, to go out today, maybe before we say our final goodbyes, how would each of you describe the other two people in one word? Maureen, you go first. Whatever comes to mind.

[Maureen Laffey]

Kathryn Grody is a beast.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Beast.

[Becky (dog)]

Beast.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Okay.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Mandy Patinkin.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh, Katherine Grody.

[Maureen Laffey]

Oh.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh, she's describing me.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah.

[Maureen Laffey]

Sorry.

[Quince Advertiser]

Mandy.

[Maureen Laffey]

You are a. Mandy knows how to be generous without strings attached.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Is that a word?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yes. It's got a lot of letters. Okay.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I love it. It's given beast and generous without strings attached. Dad, Describe your wife and Maureen in one word.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Alive.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

That's Catherine.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Both of them, they're just incredibly alive.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Same word.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, I wanted a different word. They're just. They're just one word.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

You can do each one Separate if you want.

[Mandy Patinkin]

They're the northern lights. They are the northern lights.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Northern lights, Mom. One word. Mandy Patinkin. Maureen Laffey.

[Kathryn Grody]

I know. Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. Surprising me. Changing open to the unexpected impossibility. And marine. Truly the northern lights. Curious, daring, adventurous.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

This is like a whole sentence.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You have to do it. Do one word.

[Becky (dog)]

Catherine, you just did a brave.

[Maureen Laffey]

Catherine, you just did a play. It was a force of nature, okay?

[Kathryn Grody]

That's what she meant by beasts. By the way, she is a.

[Maureen Laffey]

No, no. A beast of a person. Of ideas, of energy, of newness, of wanting, of exploring.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Half of that. I can get into that. No, no, don't make me. Don't make me ask Claude so much. He asked for it.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Thank you so much. Thanks everybody for tuning in to Don't Listen to Us. We loved having you here. Please remember we'd love to be in conversation with you. You can send us an [e-mail] or send us a voice note at the link in our bio. Thanks so much to the incomparable Maureen Laffey for joining us today.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Remember, my birthday's also coming up very soon. I'm not going to say when it is because the dates are always different from when we do this and when you hear it. But if you're late.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

So your birthday happened.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Well, it probably happened. But if you missed it, you can send me a gift. Register every site in the world.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

The best gift you can send Mandy for his birthday is by making a donation to the International Rescue Community, irc.org they need it.

[Mandy Patinkin]

They need it more than anyone because they take care of humanity.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

All right, thanks, everybody. We love you. Oh, Maureen. Maureen can say our sign off.

[Maureen Laffey]

Just remember, don't listen to us. Yes.

[Becky (dog)]

Oh, definitely. We're a mess. We're selves again. We're all a mess. Oh, my God.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Don't Listen to Us is a Lemonada Media original hosted by Mandy Patinkin, Kathryn Grody and Gideon Grody Patinkin. Created by Katrina Onstad, Debbie Pacheco and Gideon Grody Patinkin. Executive producers are Kathryn Grody, Gideon Grody Patinkin, Mandy Patinkin, Katrina Onstadt, Debbie Pacheco, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Whittles Wax. Our engineer is Ryan Derringer of Welterweight Sound. Video and audio production by Mark Whiteway of Bellows Media. You can watch on CNN.com watch or the CNN app. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Media Premium yet, now's the perfect time. You can hear Don't Listen to us completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like behind the scenes conversations, questions so weird they didn't make it on air, Becky the Dog Shenanigans and more. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple podcasts. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app, or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out.