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Introducing: Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus
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- [00:01]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
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- [01:02]
Glenn Close
Lemonade. Hello, dear listeners, it's Gideon, Mandy, and Catherine. We are taking a little holiday rest. In the meantime, we wanted to share a wonderful conversation from Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus and the incomparable Glenn Close. In this episode, Glenn reflects on growing up in the moral rearmament cult, her iconic work in Fatal Attraction and the New Knives out and the tenacity, talent, and forgiveness that have shaped her life. She talks about the women who raised her, what becoming a grandmother has meant, and even shares an incredible story from the set of the Natural. If you want to hear more of Wiser Than Me finding, follow the link in the show notes. Happy holidays and we'll see you in 2026.
- [02:00]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Every actor who's been around for a minute has an audition story, and here is mine. You may have heard part of this story before, but I want you to hear the whole thing. This was a really long time ago, like between SNL and Seinfeld, and I was living in New York and I got an audition for the movie About Last Night. This was a movie with a lot of heat on it. It was being directed by Ed Zwick, and it was based on a play by David Mamet, the preeminent American playwright of the day. And it had been adapted by my close Chicago pal Tim Kazarinski. And the role that I was auditioning for was Joan, the cynical Friend, which is, you know, come on, let's face it, that's like right in my wheelhouse. So, okay, I go to this hotel for the audition and I'm in The hallway waiting for turn to go in. And from inside the room, I hear this big laugh. And out comes Demi Moore, who was like peak Brat Pack at that moment. And she did this adorable little twirl, and everybody was waving goodbye to her, and they were craning their necks to see her go. She was so beautiful. And that's when the casting assistant says, jilly Louis Dreyfus. And I'm like, oh, fuck, I have to follow that. I mean, even though I wasn't reading for the same part as Demi Moore, I mean, her just her confidence and the fact that she had obviously killed in the room, it was just also very intimidating. I remember exactly nothing about the audition. And that gives you an idea of the trauma that I experienced for the next three minutes or so. It was terrible, and it should have been great. I mean, I was right for the part. I was prepared. That it was such a disaster was a total fluke. All I needed was another chance. But of course, you know, you don't get another chance unless you get called back. And I really wasn't getting called back for that, that was for sure. So guess what I did. I went home and I wrote the director, Ed Zwick, a handwritten note, and I was completely honest, and. And I begged him for one more chance. I told him that I knew I could just nail the role of Joan. And I took the note back to the hotel and I gave it to the concierge, who told me that he would absolutely deliver it personally to Mr. Zwick, which he did. And you know what? Ed Zwick is not only a wonderful director, but he's also a wonderful man. And he said, absolutely. Come back tomorrow. We would be so very happy to see you again. And I ran that Jones scene a thousand times in my apartment that night. And the next day, just brimming with confidence and buoyed by my display of classic, you know, show biz chutzpah, I walked back into that room where I could feel Ed Zweck and the producers rooting for me because I'd taken a chance and it was paying off. Eleven months later, almost to the day, about last night opened, and guess what? When I nervously read the review in the New York Times, they didn't love the movie, but they said standing out in the role of Joan, a kindergarten teacher who says very funny and very rude things to men in a singles bar, is the excellent Elizabeth Perkins. Oh, my God. Not for the faint of heart, this show business. That's why one of my. My favorite things in the world is an actor over 70 who is still working, still risking everything on stage or in front of a camera, and has great stories to tell. I think it's kind of heroic, really. How fitting then that today we get to talk to Glenn Close. I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. So you're walking along a creek in Bozeman, Montana. Sacajawea peak rises nearly 10,000ft above. The snow crunches underfoot as you move through the beautiful, untamed wilderness. And then up ahead, you see her, a woman with the most striking, gorgeous white hair moving confidently through the snow. And yeah, it's Glenn Close, who is now settled in Bozeman among bears and mountain bluebirds being, you know, fabulous Glenn Close. I got to watch her in Fatal Attraction again last night. And let me tell you something, that movie holds up. And you know why it holds up? Because Glenn Close has this weight, this power, this inner light, this complete commitment. When she takes a role, any role, Alex Force, Patty Hughes, Albert Knobbs, and hundreds more. Man, she loves to work. I can't believe how much this woman works for every. She engineers a real person. Even when it's Cruella De Vil, Glenn Close makes it the real Cruella De Vil. The Cruella who would do all of those horrible, terrible Cruella things. And she still gets all the laughs. And on stage. Good Lord. I was lucky enough to see her on Broadway and Sunset Boulevard and it was a full on tour de force for real. Glenn didn't grow up like most actors. She grew up inside the mra, a fundamentalist movement she later called a cult. Somehow she emerged from that with an enormous heart and a capacity for compassion and forgiveness that shows up in all of her performances on the screen and on stage. Beyond performing, she co founded Bring Change to Mind with her sister Jessie, turning a family struggle into a mission to break the stigma around mental illness, reaching 2 billion people and supporting tens of thousands of students along the way. She's won Tonys and Golden Globes and Emmys and is an eight time Oscar nominee. That is right. Eight times this year. She became a first time grandmother, which feels like a great way for her to start her third act. Welcome. Mother, sister, aunt, actor, producer, writer, and now grandmother. And a woman who is so much wiser than me, Glenn Close. Hi, Glenn.
- [08:58]
Glenn Close
Hi. Hi. I do not think I'm wise at all.
- [09:03]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, we'll see. Somehow I think you are quite wise. And I'm delighted to have you here. What an honor and a treat.
- [09:11]
Glenn Close
Great to be with you.
- [09:13]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Okay, so you live in Montana, although I'm talking to you now, you're in Berlin, which is a far cry from Bozeman, Montana. What does a good day look like for you in Bozeman? Are you a hiker? Do you get out in the mountains or.
- [09:28]
Glenn Close
I love to hike. I love to hike, but I'm so. Oh, God. I think probably the best luckiest thing that ever happened in my life is that before the big onslaught of people moving to Bozeman that started during COVID I was able to find a piece of land that had actually been on the market for seven years and I was able to buy it.
- [09:54]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Wow.
- [09:54]
Glenn Close
And that is my legacy to my daughter and her husband and their child and to my family. We're right up against the Bridgers and the property goes up into the national forest. There will be nothing in between us and that. And we have mountain lions, elk, moose, deer, bears, whatever, you know, grouse. And it's the greatest gift of my life.
- [10:26]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
It is. I love that you were able to create that for yourself and you recreated your grandparents cottage. Is this correct?
- [10:35]
Glenn Close
Oh, yeah. That was kind of weird. My grandparents didn't actually live in a cottage. They lived in a house that was bigger than a cottage.
- [10:45]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes.
- [10:45]
Glenn Close
But they had this wonderful stone cottage on their farm on their property that I think originally had been a slaughterhouse.
- [10:55]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, God.
- [10:55]
Glenn Close
But it was made into this really cozy cottage. And that was my first memory in that little cottage.
- [11:00]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Got it.
- [11:01]
Judith Bowles
Stone.
- [11:02]
Glenn Close
It had ivy on the. Literally a white picket fence around it in the middle of a hay field and woods. So I decided when I was building this house, because I'm living my life backwards, that behind the house I was going to build a cottage, a stone cottage. Because the happiest and most inspiring years of my life was in that place. And I have decided that I am going to end my days in that cottage. So there's two bedrooms for me and my caretaker eventually. And that's where I'm going to. That's where I'm going to die.
- [11:48]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, my God.
- [11:49]
Glenn Close
Happily.
- [11:50]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
That is extraordinary. That's extraordinary. It's actually built now or you're building it?
- [11:57]
Glenn Close
Yes, I think the stone part is built and I think this week they start with the porch. There's a little porch that goes down onto a terrace that's between the cottage and the bigger house. Yeah. It makes me so happy. Makes me so happy to think that.
- [12:16]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I think that's such an Incredible thing to really. You call it living your life backwards, but you're really sort of in control of things in a way that most people don't get the opportunity to do. And I think that's extraordinary that you've been able to pull that off. And I'm just now thinking, I gotta build a cottage around here for myself. I gotta build a two bedroom cottage. I gotta figure that one out. I'm gonna do that.
- [12:49]
Glenn Close
Yeah. Yeah.
- [12:51]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So tell me, are you comfortable if I ask your real age?
- [12:55]
Glenn Close
78.
- [12:57]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
How old do you feel?
- [12:58]
Glenn Close
Oh, God, I feel probably around in my 20s.
- [13:03]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, really?
- [13:04]
Glenn Close
Maybe early 30s.
- [13:06]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
How is that? Why is that? What is it about feeling that younger age?
- [13:11]
Glenn Close
I don't know, I just, I don't. When I think of how old I actually am, it just amazes me. So I don't think about it much.
- [13:18]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [13:18]
Glenn Close
Because I don't think I fit into whatever people expect you to be. Like when you're 78 years old.
- [13:25]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [13:26]
Glenn Close
And I'm thinking about a lot because I had this experience when I was really, really little where I was sitting in this open field plucking. I used to like to pluck the, you know, the juicy parts of clover blossoms and bite down on them because they're sweet. But I all of a sudden started concentrating on my hand. And then my fingers came down and plucked up the little piece of the clover, put it in my mouth, and I realized that what was ever making that hand work was not really who I am. That who I am was whatever was looking out of my eyes. And I felt that my body is just the particular house I was put in on this planet. And I feel, thank God it's kind of, you know, is aging kind of needs a little bit of renovation. But it's holding up pretty well. But I really feel like who I am has always been whatever is looking out of my eyes.
- [14:31]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I'm absolutely fascinated that you tell that story because it sounds like you had an awareness of your soul at that young, tender age. Correct.
- [14:43]
Glenn Close
It's what it is, if that's what it was. But I certainly had an awareness.
- [14:49]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Wow.
- [14:50]
Glenn Close
That there was something that I was very aware of the mechanics of my arm and my hand and my fingers doing that particular act. And I felt that it was different, that the body that was holding it, holding it and doing that action. I felt I was the observer of that. Hmm.
- [15:15]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
It's an incredible thing to consider and that you became an actor that is a. In a strange way, it's almost like an acting awareness. Huh. Isn't it kind of, you know. Yeah.
- [15:28]
Glenn Close
Because I think. I think of acting is, you know, looking into someone else's eyes and reflecting off of that.
- [15:35]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right.
- [15:36]
Glenn Close
And the most powerful thing in film is the close up. It doesn't exist on stage, but the closeup, when it's well used by a director, will keep an audience emotionally engaged because it's like you're looking into somebody else's eyes up close. I don't think there's anything more powerful than two eyes looking into two eyes. And I think that's one of the reasons why we all seem to be, you know, floating in this, you know, almost dystopian world, because we're getting further and further away from that. It's not the same the way you and I are looking at each other through a screen.
- [16:15]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [16:15]
Glenn Close
It's just not the same.
- [16:16]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
It's not the same. What do you think is the best part about being your age, Glenn?
- [16:22]
Glenn Close
Do you think the best part?
- [16:24]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, the best part. I wonder.
- [16:26]
Glenn Close
The best part is, first of all.
- [16:29]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, God.
- [16:30]
Glenn Close
I mean, there's a lot of. I mean, I'm living my life backwards. I feel like I'm probably discovering more now than I ever have. I feel I'm finally maybe getting to the place where I can settle into who I am and not have to worry about pleasing people all the time.
- [16:55]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, that's nice.
- [16:56]
Glenn Close
Which was a really, you know, big thing to try to deal with.
- [17:00]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [17:01]
Glenn Close
And another great thing is that you've had experience. I mean, even in my profession, in my craft, you know, you feel like there are more possibilities because, you know, more, you've done more, you've learned more.
- [17:14]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [17:14]
Glenn Close
And also, I really love the fact that I've known some people for a very long time. I like having a history with people, beginning with my family, of course.
- [17:27]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [17:28]
Glenn Close
It really means a lot to me.
- [17:29]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah. Hey, I know you have a new grandbaby. What kind of grandma are you? Do you like being a grandmother?
- [17:35]
Glenn Close
I love being a grandmother. And we FaceTime. In fact, we FaceTime about an hour ago. He's growing up so fast. He was born in February during a snowstorm.
- [17:45]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Ooh. Were you there for that?
- [17:47]
Glenn Close
Yeah, and I was there kind of by a miracle. Cause I was doing All's Fair in la, and it was around the times of the fires. The fires weren't a miracle. The fires were horrendous. But we were on a hiatus for a week. And it was during that time that he was born. So I was there.
- [18:08]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, wow. Okay. So you Got to be there.
- [18:11]
Glenn Close
Yeah. Yeah.
- [18:12]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And are you very. A part of his life? And as a grandma, how does that work? How are you doing all of this?
- [18:22]
Glenn Close
I try to be as much of a part as I can, but I know that it's important for my daughter, Annie, and her husband, Mark and Rory is his name. They have their family unit. You know, you don't always want to have grandma hanging out. So sometimes I'll say, can I come over? But I think we have it pretty well worked out. I think they know, of course, how much time, how much it means to me to be with him, and just. I love getting in his playpen and playing with him and just watching him figure things out. He has wonderful concentration. I love that. I mean, I could practically hear his brain cells popping, you know, his little fingers to make him. You know, first he can't grab stuff, and then he grabs it, and then he can look at it, and then he. It's just, you know, I was working when Annie was. She was only seven weeks old when I went over to do Dangerous Liaisons. Oh. So I was lucky enough to have a magnificent woman with me, but I didn't spend the kind of time that Annie has spent with Rory because I was working. So it's almost like I'm reliving her babyhood through her son's babyhood and kind of filling in the gaps that I missed.
- [19:47]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Can you talk about that? About the experience of working the way you did with a child and how. I mean, I understand in the beginning you had Dangerous Liaisons, but then what happened after that? How did you sort of straddle it all? What did you learn from that experience? Because that's hard. It's massive demand, both at work. I mean, incredible.
- [20:16]
Glenn Close
Well, you've gone through it. You know what it is?
- [20:18]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I've gone through it.
- [20:19]
Glenn Close
You're cut in half. I think, certainly I can only speak as a woman.
- [20:23]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, of course. Because that's what we are.
- [20:25]
Glenn Close
But I think as soon as you have a child, you're basically cut in half. Half of you is with your child, and half of you is with you. And it's. I think that's why women age faster than men, perhaps because you don't sleep as well, because your ear is always tuned towards your child.
- [20:41]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Would you have done anything differently, do you think, looking back on that period of time? No. The only.
- [20:48]
Glenn Close
I mean, I have to say, where I was so lucky was that I could afford help.
- [20:54]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, me, too. Exactly.
- [20:56]
Glenn Close
And if I couldn't have afforded help, I would have had to stop working. And working was the way I made my living and could afford taking care of my child right? But you know, I'd come to a point in my career where it was just around I remember I was really, really sick with I just gotten pregnant and I was throwing up all the time and it was the opening of Fatal Attraction. Wow. And I was pregnant. And I remember after the screening in New York, there was a big party at Tavern on the Green and all I could eat was rice. I was so throwing up all the time.
- [21:39]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, you poor soul. It's time for a break. More with Glenn Close in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a Wiser Than Me newsletter where you can get behind the scenes details from my conversation with Glenn and more. You can subscribe now at wiser than me.substack.com youm'll get photos and videos, letters from me, Think exclusive bonus snippets, glimpses behind the scenes of the making of the podcast, a deeper dive into every guest, plus a place to connect with other Wiser Than Me listeners. I hope you subscribe at wiser than me.substack.com and stick around to see what we have in store. Be right back. This message comes from Fos Feminista. When you give to Fos Feminista, your dollar isn't just a dollar. It's contraception for a woman in Mexico, an exam table for a clinic in Argentina, a vaccine fridge in Nigeria that keeps medicine cold. Your gift can provide health and hope where it's needed most. Learn how your gift can be matched five times@fosfeminista.org podcast there are lots of people right now focusing on hitting their protein goals. Maybe they want to help build and maintain muscle or recover after a workout. At the same time, life can get pretty busy. That's why so many people are looking for easy, protein packed options and this one actually delivers Ratio protein yogurt has 25 grams of protein per cup, making Ratio the most protein per cup in the yogurt aisle. That's more protein than four whole eggs plus zero added sugar. You get a complete protein with all nine essential amino acids, zero grams of added sugar and real staying power. It's protein that can help your body build and repair tissues, making it an easy post workout snack or just a midday keep going moment. Not only is it packed with protein, but ratio protein has a smooth and creamy texture so there's no need to compromise. Great taste when hitting protein go the kind of thing that slips right into a chaotic day. No cooking, no cleanup. Just open, eat and you're on your way to hitting your protein goals without having to worry about baking yet another chicken breast ratio does the math so you don't have to head to ratiofood.com to find a retailer near you. This episode of Wiser Than Me is brought to you by the Cancer Guard test from the makers of the cologuard test. Nearly 70% of cancers diagnosed have no routine screening, including some of the most aggressive, like pancreatic, ovarian, liver, esophageal, stomach and lung cancers. Cancer Guard helps address this unmet need and complements existing recommended screening to expand the ability to help detect more cancers earlier. CancerGuard is a simple blood test that helps screen for over 50 cancer types and subtypes even before symptoms appear. When treatment may be more effective, the Cancer Guard test helps you take proactive steps for your health with confidence and peace of mind. Talk to your doctor about Cancer Guard to see if the test is right for you, or visit cancerguard.com for more information and to connect with a telehealth provider. You can also give the gift of peace of mind this holiday with a Cancer Guard gift card@cancerguard.com wiser. This test is not recommended for individuals who have had cancer in the last three years or are pregnant, and it is not a replacement for recommended screening. The Cancer Guard test may be HSAFSA eligible. Hey, wait a minute. What about the getting pregnant around the time of Fatal Attraction? When you shot the movie, were you pregnant or was it just right after the movie?
- [25:38]
Glenn Close
No. This is crazy. This is crazy. So we shot the original movie and I remember we ended in December and it wasn't until the following summer that I was told they wanted to reshoot the ending. Ah, I was very lucky I hadn't cut my hair. But I was pregnant during that whole reshoot when I was doing the stuff in the bathtub and getting slammed against the, you know, the medicine cabinet by Michael. And it was after that that I that I found out I was pregnant.
- [26:16]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, so you didn't know when you were being thrown around the tile bathroom that you were pregnant?
- [26:22]
Glenn Close
That I was pregnant, yeah. And the stuff in the bathtub and everything.
- [26:26]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Wow.
- [26:27]
Glenn Close
Yeah, it was crazy. It was crazy. The funny thing was is that when we went to the Oscars, I got nominated for an Oscar for it and Michael and I were asked to give an award early on and they didn't allow me to go commercial. I was eight months pregnant. So they paid for us to go out in A private. Not a big one. We had to kind of hop across the country. But when I came on stage with Michael to give out the award, I was enormously pregnant. And everybody started laughing.
- [27:02]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh. Cause they weren't.
- [27:03]
Glenn Close
Because in the movie she says I'm pregnant and nobody believed her.
- [27:09]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
That's hilarious. That would have been a very funny joke if you hadn't been pregnant. That would have been genius.
- [27:15]
Glenn Close
Yeah.
- [27:16]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
That is so incredible. And it's funny how I guess the press got hold of that fact that you were pregnant and it was a big part of the. I don't know, did you get shit for it or how did that. I mean.
- [27:30]
Glenn Close
Oh, they wanted to know who the father was. Oh, yeah, I went through some shit. Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah.
- [27:35]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
It's very interesting to watch Fatal Attraction now. And I have to tell you something. I read somewhere or heard you say in an interview in prepping for our conversation, that you wanted to tell that story from her point of view.
- [27:52]
Glenn Close
Yeah.
- [27:52]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And I gotta tell you something. You gotta tell that story from her point of view. That is such a good idea for a film. I mean, for real. Yeah.
- [28:01]
Glenn Close
Because she really was a tragic figure.
- [28:03]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Tragic, Tragic.
- [28:05]
Glenn Close
She was a totally tragic figure. But because she was out of. Basically out of control because she desperately needed help, she is now considered one of the great villains of the 20th, you know, that era of movies. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was playing her and I did research with two different psychiatrists, took them the script. They read the script. And I said, my first question was, is the bunny possible boiling money? They said, oh, yeah, yeah. Second one was, why? Why? Why would. What would create that? And specifically, when she's spying on the family and they're giving. The father's. Giving the little girl the bunny, why does she run into the bushes and throw up? Now, you could say that she was pregnant.
- [28:56]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes.
- [28:57]
Glenn Close
And maybe sick from it. But she also could have been abused by her father and made to do things that would have made her gag and throw up. And that was the woman I was playing who had been abused by her father.
- [29:13]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, that was evident. I mean, it was evident to me. Your take on her was so sympathetic and it was so artfully crafted. And I mean, it's incredible how the movie ends on the tight shot of the family photo.
- [29:30]
Glenn Close
And Michael Hugs didn't originally end on that.
- [29:34]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I know, I know it didn't originally. It ended with your character killing herself listening to Madame Butterfly and he going to jail. Right?
- [29:45]
Glenn Close
Yeah. But it was so disturbing for American audiences. It's so funny. I played two characters that the audience wanted to get super punished. One of them was Alex Forrest. It's not enough that she kills herself. No, no, no. She has to be shot, you know, in order to restore order to the family. It's basic Greek tragedy.
- [30:16]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And that's why I'm saying, I think this would be, to your point, an amazing story to revisit. Now let's tell this story now again from her point of view. Anyway, I'm all for it.
- [30:31]
Glenn Close
Let's do it together.
- [30:32]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I would do that with you in a heartbeat. For real.
- [30:34]
Glenn Close
I think it would be fascinating.
- [30:36]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Fascinating.
- [30:36]
Glenn Close
Is it right? Yeah.
- [30:38]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Who is the second character that was so hated, in your view?
- [30:43]
Glenn Close
Madame de Mertheaux in Dangerous Liaisons.
- [30:45]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, yes.
- [30:47]
Glenn Close
Ooh. In the book, which is next to Dracula, the most terrifying book I've ever read. And it's just a series of letters in the book. At the end, she has smallpox all over her face. And when that story was first published, which was in the years before the French Revolution, it was banned and he was able to publish it.
- [31:20]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Why was it banned, do you know?
- [31:22]
Glenn Close
I think it was against the aristocracy.
- [31:24]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, okay.
- [31:25]
Glenn Close
They didn't kind of come off very well.
- [31:27]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, no, they don't.
- [31:32]
Glenn Close
But so he added this thing where she not only was reviled by society, but nature had also ruined her beauty and her power by giving her a smallpox. You don't see that in the film, but I knew that that was the character that was on the pages of the book. We actually shot a scene of her at the guillotine having her head cut off.
- [31:56]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, no way.
- [31:58]
Glenn Close
Yes. I still have the wig, like this little kind of thing like all your hair cut off. And Stephen Frears was so scared of. I mean, it was pretty freaky to put your head down in a guillotine. And even they say, oh, no, no, we have, you know, it's not going to go all the way down. It was really freaky.
- [32:24]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So your grandmothers were a big influence in your life. And you talk about. You mimicked one of your. I guess your father's mother scolded a famous baseball commentator about not writing a thank you note.
- [32:40]
Glenn Close
Oh, my God, yes. Who was that famous Yankee? Phil Rizzuto.
- [32:47]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So can you. Is it Phil Rizzuto tell that story what she did? What happened?
- [32:50]
Glenn Close
Oh, my God. My grandma would sit in her French, her little French stuffed chair and watch baseball. She watched the Yankees and then she watched the Dallas Cowboy. But she was a huge Yankee fan and she did needlepoint and she needle pointed Phil Rizzuto A pillow. I don't know if it had, you know, P R. On it or the Yankee logo. I'm not sure what. And somehow she got it to him. I don't know how. And then she never got a thank you note, which for Granny was, you know. Yeah, thank you notes, sir.
- [33:33]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Critical.
- [33:33]
Glenn Close
I still carry around, you know, things that I say. I have to write a thank you note. And a year later, I still have the letter. I have to write a thank you note. But she got him on the phone and asked him why he hadn't written her a thank you note. It was hilarious.
- [33:49]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Is it her kind of meltdown that you were channeling in? I guess it's reversal of fortune. Is that right?
- [33:57]
Glenn Close
Yes.
- [33:58]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [33:59]
Glenn Close
Yes. Well, Granny close. Grew up. She was born in Galveston, Texas, and then after the flood, they moved to Houston. And I heard her, and this is when she was older. And I think I was maybe still in college. No, I think I'd started my career. And I was visiting her one weekend, and I heard her be really rude to her maid. And I was so angry, and I called her on it, and she had that meltdown in front of me. It was horrifying. So I called my father, who was a doctor. I said, I think Granny's losing it. I just. This thing happened, and it was really upsetting. I've never seen anything like that. And he said, take her to sea. He had a doctor friend in New York. So the next day or two days later, I got Granny, and she was, you know, a little delicate after that. I mean, you know, kind of maybe subdued a little bit. And I got her in the car and we were driving down the Merritt Parkway, and I start.
- [35:02]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Look.
- [35:03]
Glenn Close
Kept looking over, and she literally was. It was almost like science fiction. She was putting herself together again. So by the time we got to the doctor's office, it was, oh, hello, how are. So lovely to see you again. And it was. He couldn't say anything because he didn't see anything. And I was just there going, I don't believe this.
- [35:29]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, my God. When you say she was putting herself together, you were just seeing her sort of mentally get her game together.
- [35:36]
Glenn Close
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Going down the west side highway, thinking, oh. Anyway, it was. It was extraordinary. It was extraordinary. And she, you know, hello.
- [35:50]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
With her arm out.
- [35:51]
Glenn Close
Hello, darling. Hello, darling. Yeah.
- [35:53]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
She charmed the pants off of him.
- [35:55]
Glenn Close
Yeah. Oh.
- [35:56]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
You know, it's funny you say that, because I remember my husband's grandmother, who had dementia, actually, and when she was taken to see her Doctor she would immediately start to flirting with him. And she would, you know, she was like 90. And he would say, so tell me, Evelyn, what have you been doing? What have you been up to? And she'd say, well, I've been playing tennis and I ride my bike. And, you know, it was complete bullshit. Do you draw? Do you. Do you. When you're working on character? I would assume that all of these female characters in your life, in your family, there's. It's a treasure trove of stuff.
- [36:37]
Glenn Close
Yeah, in a way, it is. I mean, Granny Close was that, you know, pounding my thighs like she did. And because you have to do it over and over in a film, my thighs were black and blue by the time we finished. So that was Granny, but Meemai, my mother's mother, Jenny Fields, in my first film. Yeah, when she gets older. Yes, that was me Mai.
- [36:57]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Really?
- [36:58]
Glenn Close
That was me Mai. Yeah.
- [36:59]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And what was it about her that you were, I don't know, channeling or using.
- [37:07]
Glenn Close
I don't know if I've done it. But Mamai had the great trait of making everybody that she talked to feel like they're the only person in the room she could. Zero. Really. That is fascinating. And then what? So that element of her is what I wanted Jenny Fields to have.
- [37:27]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And Jenny Fields for our listeners is, of course, from the World According to Garp. And you know who's like that in my life is my mother is like that almost to a fault in conversation. She can, you know, if we're in a cab and she starts talking to the driver about his life, and the next thing you know, we're not getting out of the cab at our stop because she's.
- [37:49]
Glenn Close
That's what my grandmother would do.
- [37:50]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [37:51]
Glenn Close
It's a lovely trait.
- [37:52]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
It's a marvelous trait. And also, by the way, it's a very curious way of living. I mean, in other words, you're using curiosity in your life in a very positive way because, you know, everybody has a story. Everybody has an interesting story.
- [38:08]
Glenn Close
Just, you know, get off your phone and just ask people questions, find out about them, and you'll have a wonderful time.
- [38:15]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I know. Yeah.
- [38:16]
Glenn Close
It's so, so interesting.
- [38:19]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Did you learn about being a grandmother from your grandmothers?
- [38:24]
Glenn Close
Not really, no. Hmm. Let's see. Granny close. She would drag us to Episcopal church, which was always something we didn't really enjoy that much. And she could be scary. Yeah, I had pigeon toed. I was very. I'm naturally pigeon toed. And so when I was little, I'd go over To Stanford, Connecticut, to this shoe store. And they'd make me these brown lace up shoes with. They'd, they'd make the heel so they're supposed to turn your foot out. It didn't work. But it was Granny saying, turn your feet out, turn your feet out. You know that finally, I mean, she was, make up your mind. Make up your mind. It's all good stuff, but, yeah, a little scary.
- [39:08]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
A little scary.
- [39:08]
Glenn Close
And my other grandmother, they're both fascinating women. My Grandmother Moore, both my grandmothers married older divorcees who knew each other actually. So they were younger, very beautiful women, married older men. My grandfather used to take these, you know, black and white little movies. And you could see Mimai dancing the Charleston in the snow, on snowshoes. She was supposed to be. She was just like beautiful and funny and wonderful, but she was, she, she was in her own world. Mimai, she was wonderful, but she was definitely in her own. I mean, it was Meemai that I would, you know, we'd be over there and she'd be playing canasta, you know, with three other women and the clink of their, of their jangly, you know, bracelets, drinking Dubonnet, smoking.
- [40:05]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes, I know. My grandmother was a big drinker and smoker. And, you know, to this day, that smell of scotch and cigarettes makes me very calm. It's very cozy. We'll be right back with more of my cozy conversation with Glenn Close after this quick break. You talk about your childhood sort of ending when you were 7 because I think it was around then that your parents joined the mra, Is that correct? Around then, yeah. And the MRA stands for the moral.
- [40:56]
Glenn Close
Moral rearmament. Moral rearmament instead of military rearmament after the war, supposed to be moral rearmament. And everybody in this, you're supposed to live by four standards. Absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness and absolute love. And you're supposed to have what they called guidance every morning, which is everybody had a little book, and you're supposed to have guidance from God. So if you're a kid, you know, I mean, I'm sure the Catholic Church does it. It's all confessional and blah, blah, blah, but you're supposed to live by the four standards and the guidance of God. And what does purity mean, by the way?
- [41:44]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
What the hell does purity.
- [41:45]
Glenn Close
What is absolute purity?
- [41:46]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
No. I don't know.
- [41:47]
Glenn Close
Well, for me it meant you just, you could. You wasn't supposed to look at yourself in the mirror. You felt guilty if you wanted to be pretty. Oh, my God, no. It was so fucked.
- [41:57]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah. And I know you were living in Switzerland and I mean, I can only imagine what that must have been like for you. Can you talk about that shift at age 7?
- [42:15]
Glenn Close
Yeah. Well, we didn't move immediately to Switzerland. What happened is that they met this group and I think they were fodder for a group like this because they were in a very unhappy place in their marriage. And they'd gotten married when they were 18 and you know, dad went to the war and came back. He was in medical school, so. And I do think that people don't get sucked up by these cults if they are whole people in healthy relationships. I just. I don't believe that would happen. But my parents were fragile that way. But anyway, so the first thing they did was sell the little cottage and they actually moved into. That's when we moved into Hermitage farm, which is just, you know, maybe four miles away. It was my other grandparents house. And then they eventually sold that house and gave all the money to Morrow rearmament and we went living. It used to be a center in Mount Kisco and that center had been a farm owned by one of Vanderbilt's granddaughters. I think it was a gorgeous piece of property. And there was a big house where Uncle Frank, Frank Bookman, who started it, would stay if he was there. All kept, you know, spick and span by spinsters. It was very misogynistic, this whole thing. But we were moved into this cottage which was a good sized house and various people would come in and take care of us if our parents were away on missions. So it was from there that we went to Switzerland.
- [44:05]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I see.
- [44:06]
Glenn Close
In 1960 we went to Switzerland.
- [44:08]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I see.
- [44:09]
Glenn Close
In Switzerland there's a huge. It had been a very fancy hotel in the 20s, going into the war called Mountain Houses above Montreux on the Lake of Geneva. And they made that their world headquarters or one of their headquarters. So those were probably the most destructive years.
- [44:31]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
But wait a minute. How old were you?
- [44:33]
Glenn Close
I was in seventh grade.
- [44:35]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I see.
- [44:36]
Glenn Close
When we went over there.
- [44:37]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Got it. So you were probably 13.
- [44:40]
Glenn Close
Yeah, because when I came back, I went into 10th grade.
- [44:43]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I see.
- [44:43]
Glenn Close
So we were there for two years. So Mountain House was vast, big kitchens, little dining rooms. There was always Frank's dining room. Now Frank's dining room had all the best china, the best crystal, the best flatware, the best linens. Everything was just. And I remember this, you know, and I was. What? How old are you when you're in seventh, eighth grade?
- [45:12]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I think you're like 13.
- [45:15]
Glenn Close
To be asked to set the table in Frank's dining room. You know, to fold the napkins.
- [45:21]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
It was like, oh, God.
- [45:24]
Glenn Close
I think the worst was for me when we were still living in Greenwich on John street, and my parents were leaving on a mission, and I was really upset. And I had a little bedroom on the third floor of the house. And I went running up crying. I didn't want to say goodbye to them. And then I looked out the window and I saw that the car was there and. Or the taxi or whatever it was and that they were leaving. And I ran to this little cupboard where I had, like, art material. And I got out a piece of paper and I wrote on this piece of paper. Jesus says you should go. And I wrapped it around pencil and threw it out the window. And I saw my father pick it up and read it and kind of look in. And how warped is that now? Just think about that for a minute. I felt guilty for letting my parents basically abandon us, which they did over and over and over again. I mean, and yet it was Jesus telling me, yes, it's okay to leave me. I'm seven, but go ahead and go change the world. And we'll be, you know, in the care of some girl who's probably being punished, you know, by having to go take care of someone's kids.
- [46:44]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, poor Glenn.
- [46:45]
Glenn Close
And it seems tiny. You know, we weren't beaten. We always had clothes. We always had food. So I've. In a way, it's been very hard to come to terms with it because of that. Because I wasn't sexually or physically abused, but I had. It was terrible emotional and psychological abuse.
- [47:04]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Terrible, terrible.
- [47:06]
Glenn Close
And it still is still with me.
- [47:08]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I can see it.
- [47:09]
Glenn Close
It's absolutely still with me.
- [47:10]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And I can feel it. It's a horror. It's a horror. It's terrible.
- [47:17]
Glenn Close
The funny thing is, it's not funny, but my dad was sent away to school, to a boarding school in England. His dad was directed the. The American Hospital in Paris. So they basically. They were in Paris, but he was sent when he was 7 years old.
- [47:34]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, that was the norm.
- [47:36]
Glenn Close
And so that. And my dad, apparently, he was a twin. He had a twin brother. And it was my dad who would cling to the car, have to be pulled off, you know, And I think he was. He had been abused and abandoned. I mean, why. How can you not feel abandoned when that happens and, you know, never to be visited?
- [47:58]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So we're talking about generational trauma that carries. That is.
- [48:03]
Glenn Close
Yeah.
- [48:04]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So he.
- [48:04]
Glenn Close
They did that to their children.
- [48:06]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right. And so can we talk about forgiveness? Because I know it's something you've worked on, I'm sure. How to get there? How do you get there? Do you get there?
- [48:22]
Glenn Close
Well, I had this. A little bit of a revelation when I had my new. When Annie was little. Yes, I remember exactly when it was. Came back from Dangerous Liaisons. My parents lived in Wyoming, and they had built a house down from their little house that. Where my first. My grandmother Moore lived and died. And then my grandmother close, who was not someone who ever thought she'd end her days in Big Piney, Wyoming, but she was there, and she. You know, she had been somebody to contend with, but my dad was taking care of her, and I went down to visit her, and she was almost in the fetal position. You know, I don't know how long after that visit, she died, but she was there in her bed, asleep. And I stood over her with my child. And I had this thought that the burden of forgiveness is always with the child. It's whether the child will be able to forgive.
- [49:31]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, my God, that makes me cry.
- [49:34]
Glenn Close
Because the person who's been wronged is the one who needs to forgive. And that parents will always make mistakes, some bigger than others. But I think that that is where forgiveness. That's the burden of forgiveness. And you either. I asked my mom to come with me to some, you know, when I was seeing a shrink, because I wanted to ask her some questions with a shrink there who could kind of, you.
- [50:05]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Know, help facilitate it, moderate it. And she did. And.
- [50:13]
Glenn Close
I really. I learned about some things, you know, what it was like when dad came back from the war and blah, blah, blah. And I started to really understand them and I forgave them. I had another incident with my dad. He was an extraordinary man, but he had no emotional vocabulary as a father. And I spent three days writing this letter, finally telling him what I thought of him as a father. And it was so strong that I read it to my siblings and to my mother before I sent it to dad because I wanted them to know. And the thing that it did for me. Yeah. Was that I was immune to his power over me in that way. I had made myself immune. He went to see a shrink that he knew for about three sessions, and.
- [51:25]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Then he got cured. Stopped cured, and he got cured. Listen, you joined this group up with People.
- [51:36]
Glenn Close
It was an offshoot of mra.
- [51:38]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Okay. So it was like a Christian singing group a little bit.
- [51:44]
Glenn Close
Right.
- [51:45]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
A little. Very popular, by the way. Cause I remember it from when I was little. I don't know how I saw it, but I did. And the up with People song, I vaguely remember. Oh, and I have to tell you something. So my husband Brad grew up in Santa Barbara, California. His dad was an Episcopal minister here in California. And the Up With People folks used to come and they would stay at the rectory while they performed at the Granada Theater. Were you touring with them? Did you ever perform at the Granada Theater?
- [52:21]
Glenn Close
What year was that, do you know?
- [52:23]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, I'm gonna say it was in.
- [52:24]
Glenn Close
Cause I toured with them from 19 to 1970 for five years.
- [52:31]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, it would have been, it would have been during that time. You don't have any member. I mean, it's possible, I'm telling you right now, Glenn, it is possible that you stayed at Brad's childhood home with upright people.
- [52:46]
Glenn Close
Well, we always stayed with families.
- [52:49]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, I guarantee, I guarantee it. How bizarre would that be?
- [52:54]
Glenn Close
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [52:57]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Anyway. God, I know, so bizarre.
- [53:02]
Glenn Close
Girls bus, boys bus. You know, you weren't supposed to do anything. And of course, because I hadn't ever done anything. Kiss. Lord knows I hadn't had sex. I'm sure kids were doing it just left, right and center.
- [53:16]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
But you, no. But you were sticking to the absolute.
- [53:19]
Glenn Close
I didn't know anything else.
- [53:21]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Uh huh.
- [53:21]
Glenn Close
Right. Yeah.
- [53:22]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
All of this baggage. Did it make it scary then to become a mom? Or did you get more clarity when you became a mom? Or all of the above. I suppose.
- [53:33]
Glenn Close
I don't think I dragged a lot of it into my experience of being a mother. I had other things to contend with. I'm very blessed to have, I think, an extraordinary human being for daughter.
- [53:51]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, how wonderful.
- [53:53]
Glenn Close
She is so rooted. I'm just like, bleh, boy.
- [53:59]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
You don't.
- [54:00]
Glenn Close
I always will be.
- [54:01]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
You don't seem, bleh. You don't seem like that to me. You don't. I mean, you've been through a lot and you haven't, it seems to me, anyway, you have an understanding of where you've been. You're probably still peeling back layers on.
- [54:14]
Glenn Close
You more and more. Oh, yeah, I think. More and more. More and more. But just, you know, I've been married three times.
- [54:20]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [54:21]
Glenn Close
And the, the. I shouldn't have married any of them, but I had an empty toolbox. And so I've had to try to fill that toolbox as far as human relations and certainly relationships in a marriage with nothing really as a model. So I've made a lot of mistakes. And I think that, that in my generation and my family, we have A lot of divorces, but our kids, I think, knock on wood. But it looks like they have found, literally, life partners. And I think that's one of the things that maybe what we went through, they're saying, you know, they've seen it and they know that they can do something else, you know, so that makes me. That makes me happy.
- [55:17]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
As well. It should. As well it should.
- [55:19]
Glenn Close
Yeah. But I think it's. I think it's sad that I was so unknowing. I mean, so unknowing. So, you know.
- [55:28]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, yeah.
- [55:29]
Glenn Close
Always chose the wrong.
- [55:31]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, that is sad. But this is not a sad story. You're telling this story, you know, it's triumphant.
- [55:38]
Glenn Close
No. And I feel so alive. But I do think that one of the great gifts, possible gifts in life is to have a life partner. It's tricky, of course, but, you know.
- [55:49]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, it can be tricky, for sure. But let's talk a little bit more about your career. It's just so remarkable. I can't get over how long it's been. And it's so varied. And I know that you've said that earlier in your career, you were driven by a real need to prove yourself. Of course, I totally understand that drive. But at this point, do you still feel that way?
- [56:13]
Glenn Close
No, I don't feel I need to prove myself. If anything, I still want to, I think, satisfy my creative urgent. I mean, this movie that I just finished.
- [56:27]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, right. It's a Hunger Games prequel, right?
- [56:29]
Glenn Close
Yeah.
- [56:30]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes.
- [56:30]
Glenn Close
I play a character called Drusilla Sickle, and we had five distinct looks. And the collaboration that went into what those looks were gonna be was just so much fun, you know, it was just so much fun. And I like nothing I've ever done before because of the nature of who this character is and what she looks like.
- [56:55]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, tell me about that.
- [56:57]
Glenn Close
So I started thinking about that this past summer. And there are certain characters that I've played that I've wanted to change my face in very subtle ways because I get distracted by it. I've lived in this space for a long time.
- [57:11]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah. Yeah.
- [57:12]
Glenn Close
And it helps me find a character if I could just make little subtle changes. Albert Nobbs is one, and Mamaw in Hillbilly Elegy is one.
- [57:26]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And also summer book.
- [57:27]
Glenn Close
Yep, summer book. The summer book, absolutely. Yeah. So Drusilla, because she's so outrageous and written as outrageous, so I knew that I wanted a certain shape of my mouth. I love teeth. Started working with Matthew Mungle, who's retired, but he's kind of a Buddy, you know, one of the great FX artists.
- [57:47]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [57:47]
Glenn Close
And so I got an idea about it. I start by stuffing Kleenex or rolling it up and putting it under my lip and getting certain shapes.
- [57:56]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
But how did you do the stretching? Sideways? Is that a post production situation or is it. No, no, no, no.
- [58:04]
Glenn Close
How did they taped it? It was my skin. In fact, the more we stretched, the wider my mouth got. So I thought I should have had a facelift in my contrast.
- [58:12]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Wow. Wow.
- [58:13]
Glenn Close
No, it was extraordinary what it did to my. And then I wanted, like, a little piggy nose. And that's a technique that I've learned that I actually did for the first time with Matthew. But now it's much easier. That's a question of tape. And then you put a prosthetic over it. And then, you know, stretching your eyes up and stretching this up.
- [58:42]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, you're stretching the skin over your cheeks up and sort of pulling your lip up.
- [58:49]
Glenn Close
God, I just. I did not look like myself. It was so fabulous. I'll show you a picture. Because they can't see it. Yeah, I'll sneak you a picture.
- [58:57]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, sneak me a picture. I want to see. Oh, no way.
- [59:02]
Glenn Close
Yeah, that's me.
- [59:03]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
No way. Okay, so I'm looking at this picture of Glenn, which I can't share with people, but. But it is. You are transformed.
- [59:13]
Glenn Close
Yeah. And I'll show you another one.
- [59:16]
Judith Bowles
No.
- [59:17]
Glenn Close
Oh, my God. No.
- [59:19]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
It's terrifying. You look terrifying. It is so scary. We are in for a treat, you guys. Oh, my God, the nose is incredible.
- [59:30]
Glenn Close
Oh, I'm excited. I know.
- [59:32]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [59:33]
Glenn Close
It's so much fun. You see? It's just so much fun in the.
- [59:36]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
This is all on. Glenn is sharing pictures on her phone listeners. We are.
- [59:42]
Glenn Close
And you can't see it. You have to wait.
- [59:44]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
You have to wait. But the wait is gonna be worth. Kind of. Is a. I'm looking at a drag show slightly here, too. I mean, it's wild.
- [59:54]
Glenn Close
Well, I think a lot of my career is about populating gay Halloween parades.
- [60:00]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes. You are unrecognizable. You're unrecognizable.
- [60:05]
Glenn Close
Yeah.
- [60:08]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Okay, one more break, and then we're back with the incredible Glenn Close. I want to touch, of course, on your work with mental health. And in 2015, you contributed to the book that your sister wrote about her struggle with mental health, health, mental illness in a book called Resilience and how. I wonder. I know that you cared for your sister at a particular time of her suffering. And how did that experience sort of. Oh, God. Shape the way you live now, today compared to before. I know that's a heavy question and I apologize for throwing it your way, but I think it's sort of an important one to talk about, if you don't mind.
- [61:16]
Glenn Close
I think it's incredibly important to talk about. So Jesse came up to me on a summer day. She was just leaving my parents house in Wyoming, and she said, I need your help. I can't stop thinking about killing myself. Oh, and that's the first.
- [61:37]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
It was like, what, this was complete news to you?
- [61:43]
Glenn Close
Complete news to me.
- [61:45]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Did you know she was struggling at all? This is your sister, Jesse? No. Okay.
- [61:50]
Glenn Close
My younger sister Jessie. And she was always considered the wild one. She really fell through the cracks of her family. And she writes about it in the most extraordinary way. So honest in that book. And she writes about her journey with bipolar disorder. She wasn't diagnosed until she was 51.
- [62:18]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Come on. To have to live with that.
- [62:20]
Glenn Close
My father was a doctor, you know, and we came from a culture, Greenwich, Connecticut, where nobody. If you went to a shrink, you certainly didn't talk about it. I see. And most people didn't go to a shrink. And little did we know that my grandmother's brother, he lived with schizophrenia and was violent and put in the mental hospital numerous times. Another half brother of my mother's died by suicide. So depression all through the family. So when Jesse came up to me, it was such an act of courage or probably desperation. Probably a little bit of both, but probably more desperation. Yeah. And we were able to help her, my mom and I. And she went to McLean Hospital outside of Boston. Her son had been diagnosed there. He had had a psychotic break. And nobody. I mean, what. I mean, what is that? You know, what's going. She didn't know what was happening.
- [63:29]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Nobody.
- [63:30]
Glenn Close
And even though. And I think back, I knew he was there. He stayed there for two years and it saved his life, but he didn't really know what it was. I went to visit him and it was kind of, you know, uncomfortable.
- [63:45]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, God.
- [63:46]
Glenn Close
And because we live in a society that wants to put everything under the rug behind the curtain, don't talk about it. The neighbors might hear. So when Jesse and both of them came out, they told me that the stigma around mental illness is just as bad as the illnesses themselves. So while people are trying to recover, trying to understand how to deal with this chronic illness, they also have to deal with the fear of stigma. And for example, my nephew, he was kind of the glorious leader of the pack. He had his psychotic break. Nobody Came back. None of his friends came back, which is astounding to me, because of fear, because of lack of understanding, you know, of what people are actually dealing with. Anyway, so we decided to try to do something about it. And they started. They went on National Television 2010, talking about the illnesses that they were living with. I mean, it was so brave.
- [65:02]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So brave.
- [65:03]
Glenn Close
Oh, I know. You just have to start talking about it, because we're human beings, and it's part of being human.
- [65:10]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I know. And talk about the work you do with your organization.
- [65:16]
Glenn Close
So Bring Change to Mind went into the schools and have developed now these clubs where kids go, and it's peer to peer. You know, of course they have an advisor, but it's peer to peer. Kids talking about what they're dealing with. The kids are amazing. They just blew me away. But, I mean, the simple thing is, just start talking about it. If you see somebody acting, you know, not like themselves in a consistent way, go up and say if they're okay. If they say they are and you don't believe it, ask them again. And that's what these kids learn are these ways to help. Help yourself and to help somebody next to you.
- [65:59]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So it's a gift that you've been able to take this with your family, this suffering, which kind of it sounds like, to a certain extent, prevalent, and morph it and use it in ways that are so positive. So good on you and good on Jesse and good on her son. Kalyn.
- [66:20]
Glenn Close
Yes. Yeah.
- [66:22]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Okay. I've taken up so much of your time, but this has been delightful. All caps.
- [66:31]
Glenn Close
Delightful.
- [66:34]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
We always end on a couple of, like, really quick questions. Let's see. Is there something you'd go back and tell yourself at 21?
- [66:44]
Glenn Close
Oh, my God. I was such a dork. You'd say, you're such a dork right now. I'd say, such a dork. Pull yourself together. Oh, God. 21. I was still with up with people. I went to college when I was 22. I was a freshman when I was 22.
- [67:03]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh.
- [67:04]
Glenn Close
So in a way, I would say what I said to myself back then is, get out of it. Get an education.
- [67:14]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right. That's hilarious. Is there something that you would go back and say yes to? Mm.
- [67:25]
Glenn Close
Oh. After we did the Natural, Robert Redford invited me to a very romantic restaurant where we had dinner together. And I was too clueless and unknowing and unsure to even consider that I might have dated him.
- [67:59]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, my God.
- [68:03]
Glenn Close
Yeah. But he. He found Billy. But, yeah. And it's just because I I didn't.
- [68:13]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
You didn't know?
- [68:15]
Glenn Close
I didn't know. Didn't get it.
- [68:19]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I'm just gonna let that sit there. That's incredible. But lucky you. You got to work with him. You lucky duck.
- [68:27]
Glenn Close
Yeah, but how dorky was that? Oh, my God.
- [68:32]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And I'm gonna lastly ask you this. Is there something that you want to tell me about aging that I should know?
- [68:41]
Glenn Close
Try to fall in love with your skin.
- [68:44]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh.
- [68:45]
Glenn Close
I took a picture of the skin on my arm, which is kind of shocking because I love trees, and I love the bark on trees, and I wanted to find a tree bark that looked like the skin of my arm, and it would make me feel like I belong.
- [69:01]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, Glenn. Oh.
- [69:06]
Glenn Close
Because I think that's what's happening.
- [69:09]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, my God. I love that. That makes me cry. I love it. Oh, thank you.
- [69:19]
Glenn Close
Thank you, my dear. Lovely to talk to you.
- [69:22]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Lovely to talk to you. It's been heaven. Really appreciate it. Be well in Berlin. Take good care of yourself.
- [69:30]
Glenn Close
I will. You, too.
- [69:44]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, what a fantastic woman. God, I love her. Okay, let's call my mom. I can't wait to hear what she has to say about our conversation. Let's get her on the zoom. Hi, Mommy.
- [70:02]
Judith Bowles
Hi, love.
- [70:03]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Look at you, all pretty with your scarf and your lipstick.
- [70:06]
Judith Bowles
Oh, yes. Yeah. I put the scarf on this morning because one scarf can keep me warm all day.
- [70:12]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right. Actually, it's totally true.
- [70:15]
Glenn Close
Yeah.
- [70:15]
Judith Bowles
It's just amazing. And I put on lipstick just for you all.
- [70:19]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, that's so nice. Too bad we're not videotaping.
- [70:23]
Judith Bowles
Well, that's okay. I want to impress you. I worked at that.
- [70:31]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So, Mother, I talked to Glenn Close today, if you can even believe what I'm telling you.
- [70:37]
Judith Bowles
That is incredible. I mean, Glenn Close is just. I mean, is she real?
- [70:42]
Glenn Close
I mean, she is real.
- [70:43]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
She is real. She is so real.
- [70:45]
Judith Bowles
Different faces that you know her from. And she's so intense in all of the phases. Right? Everything is just like, oh, that's got to be.
- [70:54]
Glenn Close
She's.
- [70:54]
Judith Bowles
She's got to be that.
- [70:56]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I mean, it's extraordinary how she's played such a wide swath of characters. But this is the thing about Clint. She's saying she. There are a lot of women in her family that she. I'm not gonna say mimics, but she draws from to play a whole host of her characters. And she had a grandmother on her dad's side who was a real character with a massive temper. And Glenn tapped into playing her grandma a lot, specifically in Reversal of Fortune. She has a scene in which she's going absolutely bananas, having a tantrum. And she said she was just doing her grandmother.
- [71:37]
Judith Bowles
Oh, that's so interesting.
- [71:39]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, isn't that funny? So her grandparents had a big part in her life. Was your grandmother, by the way, Bessie, did she have a temper? I don't remember you ever saying she did.
- [71:52]
Judith Bowles
No, I don't. The only time I saw her get angry was really at the end of her life when she was in a nursing home.
- [72:00]
Glenn Close
It was.
- [72:01]
Judith Bowles
I was awful. One of those old fashioned nursing homes.
- [72:04]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, no.
- [72:05]
Judith Bowles
So terrible. And it was in Ohio. But anyway, they couldn't. She had no other place to put her. And so she. She said that people were coming in and stealing things from her room because they had to leave their room open at night to a certain extent or something. And so my mother and Myrna said, oh, no, they're not doing that, Mother. They're not doing that. And she looked at them and she said, you listen to me, girly girls.
- [72:31]
Glenn Close
Know what I'm saying?
- [72:32]
Judith Bowles
And I've been robbed. And she was just completely. I never ever saw her in her life be like that. But at that time, she really let it rip.
- [72:43]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Wow.
- [72:44]
Judith Bowles
So that was it. So don't tell her what. What was happening in her life.
- [72:49]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So did your mom, my grandma Dee Dee, did she have a bad temper?
- [72:52]
Judith Bowles
I wouldn't exactly call it a temper, but when she.
- [72:55]
Glenn Close
She. She could get mad, just mad.
- [72:58]
Judith Bowles
And when she was mad, she could say mean things. I think my mother grew up with one of five girls. And Myrna, her older sister, was sort of their babysitter.
- [73:08]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right.
- [73:08]
Judith Bowles
And that's a bad thing to have happen because nobody likes the oldest one. That's taken care of. And it's never a good. A good scheme. And oh my God, to Myrna, her sister, she was terrible. They just squabbled all the time and so different. And Myrna was very sort of scientific and spiritual. And my mother just. Just made fun of her all the time.
- [73:35]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
She did?
- [73:36]
Judith Bowles
Oh, yeah. Made terrible fun of her.
- [73:37]
Glenn Close
Including.
- [73:38]
Judith Bowles
She wore those cotton stockings, you know, this sort of orange cotton stockings.
- [73:43]
Glenn Close
Yeah, I remember those.
- [73:43]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Myrna wearing those.
- [73:45]
Judith Bowles
Mother used to make fun of them. She'd say, myrna, the stockings are so terrible. Why do you wear them? And she hurt Myrna's feelings. And Myrna always took it right. But there was no fury allowed in my house. But Glenn Close. What's her favorite part? Did she have a favorite thing that she did or does she.
- [74:04]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, she's played. She loved being in Sunset Boulevard, which she did that on stage. But she's a workhorse. She is just going from one project to the next. And she's making this movie that's coming out, and she plays a major character in it. And she was showing pictures on her phone to me over the zoom of her character, which I'm sure for the audience was very frustrating because I was going, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Because she has transformed her face. That's the thing I wanted to tell you that's so incredible about something. When she's thinking about a character, she thinks. You know, in my mind, when I'm thinking about a character, I think about it sort of emotionally. I don't know if I've ever told you this, but when I was playing Selina Meyer, whenever Selina would get sort of flummoxed or thrown off and she would kind of stammer, she went, well, no, it just like that. I'm doing you. Did you know that? Smooth Me?
- [75:14]
Judith Bowles
Smooth fucking me? Are you kidding me?
- [75:17]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
No.
- [75:21]
Judith Bowles
That I think I'm the coolest thing in the block.
- [75:24]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
You are, Mommy. Unless you get flustered.
- [75:26]
Judith Bowles
Unless I get flustered more often than not. And so now, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
- [75:32]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Exactly. But you're not a bitch. Like, Selina Mar is a horrible person. That I can tell you. I did not channel you for that one.
- [75:39]
Judith Bowles
I sort of understood her.
- [75:40]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, maybe she was a little familiar. Oh, shit. Well, anyway. Okay, Mom. Well, thank you so much for being available to chat about the wonderful Glenn Close.
- [75:55]
Judith Bowles
Oh, well, I loved our chat. I love all of our chats. And this one was particularly chatty.
- [76:00]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes, it was. Okay. I love you so much.
- [76:03]
Judith Bowles
I love you so much, honey. And thank you for calling. And be in touch.
- [76:06]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Okay, love you.
- [76:07]
Glenn Close
Bye.
- [76:07]
Judith Bowles
So long.
- [76:18]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium. You can now listen to every episode ad free. Plus subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each guest. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple podcasts. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com. make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at wiser than Me, and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. We're also on substack at wiser than me.substack.com wiser than me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer, Rachel Neal is consulting senior editor, and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and me. This episode was mixed by Johnny Vince Evans and Ivan Koria with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.