Is Time Apart Healthy in a Relationship? We Weigh In

Summary

Podcast Summary: Don't Listen To Us with Mandy Patinkin and Kathryn Grody

Episode: "Is Time Apart Healthy in a Relationship? We Weigh In"

Publish Date: December 3, 2025 | Host: Lemonada Media

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Overview

This episode of "Don't Listen To Us" dives into the complexities and realities of time apart in relationships—including marriages that span decades—while covering listener questions on empathy in male-dominated careers, heartbreak and timing after breakups, and foundational family sayings. Mandy Patinkin, Kathryn Grody, and their son Gideon blend their signature warmth, candor, humor, and off-the-cuff banter to explore what strengthens coupledom and individual identity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter: Family Dynamics and Humor

• The show kicks off (00:28) with a playful, irreverent discussion of family boundaries, joke limits (butt/fart jokes), and classic parental expressions.
• Kathryn observes the importance of boundaries—even jokingly likening them to fences:
  • "The fence of boundaries with families is made of reason, respect, and rational investment in everyone's future to survive each other.” (06:05, Kathryn)

2. Main Listener Question: Time Apart in Marriage

Listener Alison from Austin asks: “What are things y’all love to do apart from each other? And do you think it’s important to have separate time, hobby, interests?”

Key Answers:

• Both Mandy and Kathryn agree that separate time is not just non-threatening, but crucial:
  • “No, it’s essential. I think it’s really—we’re apart a lot.” (07:34, Mandy)
• Kathryn highlights how different interests aren’t a betrayal, but a sign of grown partnership:
  • “Some couples find it threatening if they have different interests because of this incorrect idea that you have to have everything in common.… I like driving to visit friends in different places and exploring new towns… My husband… can’t stand that. The idea of that is just really awful to him.” (07:39-08:23, Kathryn)
• Time apart is described as the “magic sauce” for long relationships:
  • “I think it’s the magic sauce of a relationship. I really do. Being separated. Being apart. Not separated, like, you know, now we’re not married anymore. No. Just being apart.” (08:57, Mandy)
• They describe parallel activities (hiking together, then splitting up) and the comfort of presence—not constant interaction.
• Kathryn discusses the need for new hobbies as they age; Mandy craves more time to collage.

3. Listener Question: Professional Empathy and Assertiveness (from Julia, a college student)

Julia asks how to balance empathy and professionalism as a woman in a male-dominated field like forensics.

• Gideon’s advice:
  • “Be yourself 100%. Do what you need to do, say what you need to say. ... Please, please, please just find ways to be yourself.” (15:55)
  • Offers practical strategies: quiet the mind, listen inwardly, and be okay with not always having the answer.
• Kathryn reframes the question:
  • “That’s not your problem, that’s men’s problem. If they have a hard time with smart women, powerful women... these are questions that men do not ask themselves at a new job...” (18:17)
  • Kathryn notes women often second-guess themselves, apologizing for “taking up space,” a phenomenon less common in men.
• Mandy adds:
  • “I don’t see any reason why your empathy can’t be viewed as strength and as confidence and as a gift.” (17:09)
• Gideon shares an analogy: Negative space and the value of being “lost” to find new solutions.
• Kathryn’s experience: The theater offered more freedom—valuing connection, conversation, and self-authenticity.

4. Listener Question: Timing, Heartbreak & Waiting (from Emily, age 26)

Emily reconnects with a high school friend post-breakup and wonders: ‘How long does it take to heal—and how long should I wait for someone?’

• Mandy’s perspective:
  • “Well, you’ve got all the time in the world.” (26:03)
• Gideon reflects on patience:
  • “If I thought you were the person for me... that there was any possibility that person might be free in their heart to one day say hello to me, I’d wait a lifetime.” (26:06)
  • "...You get infinity chances, you know?... As long as you can wait, you’ll know if you can keep waiting or not.” (28:36)
• They all debunk “the myth of the one soulmate”:
  • “I think different people need different kinds of relationships.… The myth of finding that one person is not a very helpful thing.” (28:48, Mandy)
  • Kathryn and Mandy encourage patience and openness, seeing where things develop naturally.

5. Family Sayings and Parental Wisdom (from Anne Marie)

Listener shares: Her dad’s classic advice was “shake the mustard before you squeeze.”

• Mandy remembers, “I'm okay, you’re okay” from his parents (31:38).
• Classic Mandy sayings remembered by family: “Did you have a good time?”, “Wash under your penis”—which becomes a recurring playful reference (32:40).
• Mandy reflects on his parents’ support in pursuing the arts against community pressure (“March to your own drum,” 36:35).
• Gideon shares both the encouragement and the wounds from parental comments—recalling times when praise or support was withheld, but also how that shaped his artistic drive.

6. Music for a Desert Island

Which song would you pick if you could only have one (or two) on a desert island?

• Mandy: “We Shall Overcome” (“Just kills me because when I first learned it, I believed it…”) (43:26)
• Kathryn: Joni Mitchell’s “Blue.”
• They reminisce about cherished home recordings, and Kathryn reflects on family archiving as a way of dealing with mortality and for her own entertainment.

7. Final Reflections: The (Not So) Seriousness of Advice

• Kathryn closes with the classic family irony—“Do you guys find it satisfying that all these people are asking you for advice when your children would never ask?”
• Mandy: “Not only would they not ask us, if we accidentally mention something... we get smacked.” (46:06)
• Gideon: “It just proves my theory that human beings are the stupidest species on the planet. They’re asking us for advice.” (46:13)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On separate interests in marriage:
  • “Some couples find it threatening if they have different interests because of this incorrect idea that you have to have everything in common… I think it’s really interesting if you have the freedom to just be whoever you are.” (07:39, Kathryn)
• On waiting for love:
  • “I’d wait a lifetime... As long as you can wait, you’ll know if you can keep waiting or not.” (26:06/28:36, Mandy & Gideon)
• On authenticity at work:
  • “Be yourself 100%. Do what you need to do, say what you need to say. That is the greatest gift you can give yourself, the world, and any colleague who’s around you.” (15:55, Gideon)
• On empathy as power:
  • “I don’t see any reason why your empathy can’t be viewed as strength and as confidence and as a gift.” (17:09, Mandy)
• Family catchphrase:
  • “Shake the mustard before you squeeze.” (32:22, Listener Anne Marie’s dad)
  • “Wash under your penis.” (32:40, repeated through 33:13, Gideon about Mandy)
• On parental support:
  • “March to your own drum... Not going with the herd.” (36:35, Mandy)
• On advice-giving reality:
  • “Do you guys find it satisfying that all these people are asking you for advice when your children would never ask you for advice?” (45:52, Kathryn)
  • “Really don’t listen to us, particularly today.” (46:33, Mandy)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:28: Family boundaries, favorite rude words, and classic parental exclamations.
• 06:26: Listener question about separate interests and habits in a marriage.
• 07:34–09:36: Discussion on necessary time apart and how the couple navigates it.
• 14:51–20:08: Advice for a young woman entering a male-dominated field.
• 24:48–30:17: Heartbreak, new love, and the patience of waiting for someone to heal.
• 30:42–38:21: Listener shares cherished family sayings; the value of parental support.
• 42:38–44:26: “Desert Island Discs”—family music favorites and what they’d take with them.
• 46:06: Reflection on the irony of giving advice to strangers when children don't listen!
• Throughout: Interlaced with the warm, comedic bickering and heartfelt stories that define the Patinkin-Grody family dynamic.

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Summary Tone & Language

The episode is playful, frank, and compassionate—filled with dry humor, genuine affection, and thoughtful musings. Mandy’s theatricality, Kathryn’s empathy, and Gideon’s slightly exasperated moderation create an atmosphere both wise and irreverent. Listeners walk away with nuanced, compassionate advice, laughter, and a sense of belonging to a loving, if chaotic, family.

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Perfect for anyone seeking real talk about relationships (romantic or familial), the challenges of professional identity, and the gentle strength of being true to yourself.

Transcript

[Mandy Patinkin]

Foreign.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

You can hear every episode of Don't Listen to Us. Ad free with Lemonada Premium. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to Lemonada Premium to subscribe on any other app. That's Lemonada Premium.

[Katherine Grody]

How are you? How are you feeling this week?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Gassy.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh, God, I hate that when he does that.

[Katherine Grody]

You hate fart jokes.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You hate butt jokes. I don't like crude. I'm a little Victorian that way.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

She's a prude.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Crude. I am. I don't like crudity.

[Katherine Grody]

Every now and then, you'll say something very crude, and it'll make us very happy.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I don't remember that.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I like crudity.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I know you.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I like crudite.

[Katherine Grody]

I mean, it's very out of character, but every now and then you call somebody a cunt, and that's pretty funny.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I've never done that, Gideon.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Well, yes, I have heard that.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yes, I have. But I don't like using that as a bad word.

[Katherine Grody]

As, like, a positive.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah, just really great thing. What a great.

[Katherine Grody]

So great. You were such a. Yeah, right. I mean, when you call me a. After, I.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, really. Really. Is it really going to share this?

[Julia (college student caller)]

No.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Do you remember that time I said I challenged you, Gideon, to use female physiology as a positive? Like, I hate that the most. The biggest compliment a woman can get is, wow, that took a lot of balls. Why is that the biggest compliment? So I challenged you to use women's physiology as something positive as opposed to negative. And one day I called you and I said, how are you? And you said, I'm trying to pussy up. And I was, what? And you said, I'm trying to use it positively. But it is interesting how hard that is.

[Katherine Grody]

I mean, doing this show with my parents takes a lot of pussy.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Really?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Okay, I would like this to be absolutely not part of the conversation. I. I edit this out.

[Katherine Grody]

You edit this out?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah.

[Katherine Grody]

This is.

[Mandy Patinkin]

This is great stuff. It is not really.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Oh, yeah, it's great. You know? Really?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Really?

[Katherine Grody]

Dad's very proud that he's just abstaining.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I know how to do this conversation.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I know. I know.

[Katherine Grody]

What was the worst thing you guys ever heard your parents say? Say growing up?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Hell's bells.

[Katherine Grody]

Who said that?

[Mandy Patinkin]

My mom. If she said hell's bells, we knew we were in serious trouble. The worst thing I ever heard them say.

[Katherine Grody]

Your dad would say that, too.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, my dad. My dad didn't have an expression like that. It was just my mom would say hell's bells if she was really pissed.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Off.

[Katherine Grody]

And what about you, Dad?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I don't ever remember hearing them swear. I just know that the worst thing I could hear was Mandel Bruce.

[Katherine Grody]

Oh, getting that middle name in there.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, the whole name.

[Katherine Grody]

Oh, and not the last name.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

No, just Mandal Bruce.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Get in here.

[Katherine Grody]

Wow, that is.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Never heard that.

[Katherine Grody]

Scary just hearing that.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah. Anyway, welcome to Don't. How are you?

[Katherine Grody]

How are you? How am I? How am I?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah. How exhausted are you?

[Katherine Grody]

You guys have never asked me that on this show. I only took 10 episodes.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh, my God.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Okay.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Talk about the narcissism. Yes. Okay.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

How am I? Well, I don't like to ask how are you?

[Mandy Patinkin]

That's why I don't ask you anymore. Because you don't like talking.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

How are you? Said Mr. And Mrs. Narcissist.

[Katherine Grody]

Yeah, I am doing well. I, I, I hadn't looked at the scale recently, and you've done really well. Yeah, because I've been so busy and everything the last couple days. Yeah, I've lost some, I've lost some weight. I'm trying to lose, you know, the COVID 50. There's the freshman 15, and there's the COVID 50.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And so you're doing well. It shows.

[Katherine Grody]

Yeah. Yeah. But though I'm sharing that with you, that is not an invitation to make comments about my weight or my body when you're.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I noticed you brought Ryan a chocolate croissant, but not me. Was that a statement of some kind?

[Katherine Grody]

Yes. I thought, did you get it at Black Dot? Kill you sooner, and it would give Ryan some energy. Ryan is our wonderful engineer extraordinaire behind the scenes. But, you know, in the croissant community, we get very excited by a particular level of flakiness. Level of butteriness.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yes.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

You always have chocolate in them?

[Katherine Grody]

Not always, no.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I like the almonds.

[Katherine Grody]

Chocolate or not chocolate. The almond, a good chocolate croissant.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

The almond is almond paste. Right? Right.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah.

[Katherine Grody]

Yeah. But I don't drink coffee.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I don't have croissants.

[Katherine Grody]

Oh.

[Mandy Patinkin]

So I'm glad you had a cup of coffee.

[Katherine Grody]

A while ago, when you were going to do some drive, you called us. You were like, guys, I just, I just had a, I just had a cup of coffee. I, I can't, I can't believe its effect on me. I mean, you were, you were in your 70s, discovering what coffee does.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Then I stopped maybe an hour and a half later enjoying my discovery of coffee because I had to pull over.

[Katherine Grody]

Oh, to get another cup? No, to use a facility.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

To find the interstate facility. To my liking. And I didn't have time for a lot of choice.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I like the idea of adding a segment of us asking our son how he is and getting a little information. Because you can't. Yeah, you guys dis me in public.

[Katherine Grody]

It's not dissing you. It's trying to establish some boundaries.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I know.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

What are boundaries?

[Katherine Grody]

Well, like a fence. That's for our next episode.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

For a horse.

[Katherine Grody]

Yes. It's a fence around your mind and your heart and your well being. Listener question number one. Today we've got an email. Little short email.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

What's the fence made of, Alison?

[Mandy Patinkin]

The.

[Katherine Grody]

The fence of boundaries with families is made of reason, respect, and rational investment in everyone's future to survive each other.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Couldn't, like, a chipmunk get through it? Or a squirrel.

[Katherine Grody]

Yes.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Thank you.

[Katherine Grody]

They can. This next listener question comes from Alison. And it's just a short one. Made me think of you guys. Mandy, dad, whoever you are, could you read that for us?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Hi, I'm Alison from Austin, Texas. I've been married 29 years. And my question is, what are things y' all love to do apart from each other? What are things you all love to do apart from each other? And do you think it's important to have separate time, hobby, interests? Love you all and appreciate your insight?

[Katherine Grody]

Xo. She said xo.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Xo. What does that mean? A hug and a kiss. Which one's a hug? Which one's a kiss?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh, my God.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I wasn't paying attention to what it asked. I gotta look at it again.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I think it's really essential. I'm gonna answer.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

It's a hard one.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I'm looking at this.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Four lines. I can't read through it. I've been married 29. What are things y' all love to do apart from each other?

[Mandy Patinkin]

And do you think it's important to have separate times, hobbies?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Oh, we love to do everything apart from each other.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, it's essential. I think it's really. We're a part a lot.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

We're apart a lot.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I mean, it's amazing how many things I enjoy, Alison, that my husband does not. People, you know, dinners out, new people, old people. I think some couples find it threatening if they have different interests because of this incorrect idea that you have to have everything in common. And so I think it's really interesting if you have the freedom to just be whoever you are. I like driving to visit friends in different places and exploring new towns nearby and just wandering around.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

And.

[Mandy Patinkin]

My husband, Mandy, your dad can't stand that the idea of that is just really awful to him.

[Katherine Grody]

And you guys are in an unusual setup, too, because you are often apart for work. And I think that's not something everyone gets out there. But that is in the couples I've observed that have somehow managed to stay together. A lot of them have had this. Of time apart.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah.

[Katherine Grody]

Time separated. And do you feel like that's been.

[Mandy Patinkin]

A big part of your dad misses me so much when he's not with me.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I think it's the magic sauce of a relationship. I really do. Being separated. Being apart. Not separated. Like, you know, now we're not married anymore. No. Just being apart. Yeah. She has to go to New York for a few days to do whatever she's doing, or I have to go away to do a concert. And. And, you know, and the minute. Because we just get tired of each other. We exhaust each other. We've heard it all 100,000 times. We just don't want to hear it again. We need a little space alone, but at the same time, we don't want to be alone. We want to have the other person in the other room. We want to take a walk. She goes ahead of me and listens to a podcast.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, you go ahead of me. You're much ahead of me.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I run a concert.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I was just going to say we love hiking together, even though we go to the place and then we hike separately. He does his thing, I do mine. I either talk to a friend or. Or listen to a podcast.

[Katherine Grody]

Do you guys feel at this age, you want new hobbies? Are you like. I kind of have this stuff on me, too.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I do.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, I think dad really needs to.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I long for them. I can't figure out what to do because I don't like to travel for. Because I travel all the time.

[Katherine Grody]

I'm gonna come up with five new hobbies for you that I think would suit your personhood, and then I'm gonna bring them to you on the podcast and see if we can pick one for you to explore.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I just want to have time to do the thing I love, which is collaging, and I haven't had time.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

What about trying to put a boat in a bottle while we're doing the podcast? And I'd be busy doing that. I could shut up, and you and mom could keep talking.

[Katherine Grody]

That sounds great.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Thank you. Thank you for asking that.

[Katherine Grody]

Yes. Who was that? Thank you. Alison.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Alison in Texas. And you're in the one city I just love in that state.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Foreign.

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[Katherine Grody]

So, mom, dad, we're going to put our headphones on for this next one and we are going to hear a voice message from Julia.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Okay, go.

[Julia (college student caller)]

Hi Mandy and Catherine. My name is Julia and I'm currently a college student. I am majoring in anthropology and minoring in criminology with the goal of working in the forensics field. My question is this. As a woman in a fairly male dominated field, I always have trouble balancing the empathy and the professionalism. I always want to show that I am just as capable as the men in my field. But I never want to come across as too intense or cold or anything of that nature. What's your advice for keeping that balance between being an assertive woman and one that knows their worth in the field and keeping the compassion that comes with a field as delicate as forensics. Thank you.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Okay, thanks. Can I go first?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Sure.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Well, Julia, first of all, I don't give a damn what the expectations are out in the field of male, female differences. Just period. Be yourself 100%. Be yourself. Do what you need to do, say what you need to say. That is the greatest gift you can give yourself, the world and any colleague who's around you. And if you're going to try to emulate them or be like them, I think you're going several steps backwards. So please, please, please just find ways to be yourself. And the way I often recommend it to myself in when the noise gets so loud in my head of everyone else's opinions or judgments to find time to take a walk and see if I can listen to myself or quiet myself down so that there isn't so much noise in my head and I can just be quiet. And also what my son Gideon has often preached to me is, dad, you don't need to have the answer. You don't need to know you can be lost. That's as active a thing to do as anything else. Sometimes being lost is the greatest gift in the world. So please, just be yourself. And here's my beautiful wife to correct me.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, well, I wouldn't say being lost. I wouldn't say being lost in forensics field is necessarily a good idea. Certainly if you are perplexed by a situation, to have the freedom to say you don't know how to solve a situation would be great. But I think it's fascinating that you're majoring in anthropology and criminology. I'm so curious about how those impact each other. In some ways, I just think you are an empathetic, intelligent person. You're getting expertise in your field, and I don't see any reason why your empathy can't be viewed as strength and as confidence and as a gift. You know, And I wouldn't think of you needing to turn off empathy to be like the men in the room do, you know, they should use you as a model and have more empathy for whatever situation you find yourself in.

[Katherine Grody]

This kind of reminds me of, you know, what you see in movies and action movies and that you get frustrated when you see, okay, great, now women are just like shooting everyone in the head. Is that progress? Does progress have to look like women doing the same sort of horrible behaviors as men? Yeah, you know, yeah, you say that you always want to show that you're just as capable as the men in your field, but never want to come across as too intense or cold or anything of that nature. I would say that's not your problem, that's men's problem. If they have a hard time with smart women, powerful women, opinionated women, and these are questions that men do not ask themselves at a new job or in a field.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

What's the question Men don't ask?

[Katherine Grody]

Am I talking too much?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I ask myself that all the time.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Men do not.

[Katherine Grody]

Well, you are one in a million.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Well, then I am. Cause did I say too much? Did I say the wrong thing? Did I talk too much? Did I not listen enough? Should I kept my mouth shut?

[Katherine Grody]

Well, then we're talking about all the other Men. Because this is a very common thing.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Women. I don't think I'm one in a million. I think there are others like me.

[Katherine Grody]

There are, but I'm saying this is common thing. Women questioning themselves in the male dominated workforce. Am I taking up too much space? I have female friends all the time apologizing for talking too much in conversation or thinking they've been rambling on too much.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

That's how I feel all the time.

[Katherine Grody]

And very few male friends.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I'm your father. I'm one.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, but that's. It's also in these fields that are still fairly new for women to be in, you know, the forensic field.

[Katherine Grody]

But. Yeah, but I think.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I think even more important to take your space with all the gifts you.

[Katherine Grody]

Have as yourself and let them adjust to you. Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And think of. If they have problems, it's their problem, not yours.

[Katherine Grody]

And also, you know, I say this from never having been in that kind of position and having to code switch and change your behavior to keep your job or be welcome in a space. Well, thank you so much.

[Mandy Patinkin]

So be yourself. And don't you sound like a really interesting.

[Katherine Grody]

Let us know. Let us know how it goes once you get a job in. In forensics, because we'd like to learn more about that, too.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Can I say one other thing?

[Katherine Grody]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I think, Julia, also, I want to say forensics. You know, I'm thinking about my friends at the behavioral analysis unit that I modeled the character of Gideon in Criminal Minds after really gifted minded people who did what my cousin, who is a landscape architect, taught me, which is. I asked him, as I've said before, what's the most interesting thing you learn in landscape architecture? He said, negative space. And I think when the forensic detectives figure out how to think out of the box, quiet the noise down and stop listening to everything that everybody's shouting about, trying to figure out where the problem is or where the killer is or where they're hiding, that they then start to be lost. And it's in that lost space that possibility arises. So as you walk into the forensic world, what I learned when I had the privilege to being around these people is that the way they allowed their minds to marry themselves to worlds and professions and individuals known or unknown to that were completely unfamiliar to them, and they found ways to walk in their shoes and then eventually say, hi, I've been looking for you. So that's all I want to say about that.

[Katherine Grody]

And before moving on from that, just one question for you, mom. As the woman here at the table have you had an experience in the workforce where you were struggling with the balance of assertiveness and, you know, empathy being disappeared?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Well, you know, the theater is. It's a lucky thing because you have a lot. A lot more flexibility to be who you are, to be outrageous. But certainly there's a lot of rejection and a lot of assumptions and, you know. Yeah. You know, actually, I learned my great friend Rosemary Tischler, who is a very beloved casting person and producer at the Public Theater, I would either do auditions where I'd nail it and get it, or I would be so horrible, people would wonder how I ever got employed. And she once said to me, we're gonna go through every audition at the Public Theater to see if there is something we can figure out about this. And it was very clear. I got jobs with people I talked to first. Even if it was five minutes, I couldn't just. That's why I've only had one Broadway job in my life, because in Broadway, you just walk into a black hole. Somebody's at the back of the theater. Turn to page 27, and I'm like, screw you. I don't even know who you are. I can. I don't even know if I want to work with you.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Goodbye.

[Katherine Grody]

Yeah, I got me lunch first.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah. And the only Broadway show that didn't happen was with this great English director, Frank Dunlop. When I first came to New York, he was doing Scapino, and he had me sit down and talk to him for 20 minutes. So I certainly have had the discomfort of being in a professional situation that a lot of people. I mean, Diane, we said to me, you want to talk to them? You know, it was just, like, horrible to her. That's the closest thing I can. I've had a lot of encouragement to share my opinion and be myself and not worry about getting fired.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Thank you, honey. Thank you. I take all the credit. Credit for that.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I did. I did work with a director once who drove me nuts, and I decided to quit. He wanted to fire me. And Joe Pabst said, if you're having a problem with Catherine, it's your problem. I said, it's okay, Joe. I want to quit.

[Katherine Grody]

Nice. So love that.

[Mandy Patinkin]

It's a different situation. Yeah, it is.

[Katherine Grody]

Let's go to our next listener question from Emily. This is a voice note, so we got our headphones in. Oh, I didn't bring paper.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Okay.

[Katherine Grody]

We're gonna hear from Emily, who's 26 years old.

[Emily (listener caller)]

Hi, Mandy and Catherine. I love y'.

[Mandy Patinkin]

All.

[Emily (listener caller)]

So I just reconnected with this guy from high school. Funny enough, in my senior year, I played Eva Peron, and he played Jay in that little show, you know. Anyway, he was in a relationship from high school for six years, and they broke up a year ago, and we just started seeing each other. And I really like him, and he really likes me, and we both want to be together, but he's not sure that he's ready for another relationship. And I was just wondering, you know, like, how long do you think it takes the heart to heal from a relationship that wasn't so good and maybe lasted longer than it should? And, you know, how long would you wait around for someone who's in that position like that? I'm not sure what to do, because I really like him and I really want to be with him, But I also don't want to make him feel like he's pressured to be anything with me or labels, stuff like that. I really hope that you can give me some time. All right, bye.

[Katherine Grody]

How long would you wait for someone? I mean, that's kind of what Emily's.

[Julia (college student caller)]

Trying to figure out.

[Katherine Grody]

Like, how long is it appropriate to wait and give space? What would you say at 26? How long do you wait at 26?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Well, you've got all the time in the world. I mean, I would if I thought.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

You were the person for me. I mean, how long would I wait for the person to. That my instinct and body feels is the right person for me or a right person. And I thought there was any possibility that that person might be free in their heart to one day say hello to me. I'd wait a lifetime.

[Katherine Grody]

So if you were 26 and you loved this other person, but they weren't ready and you thought you could have a good relationship with them and that they were maybe, like the one for you, you would wait possibly until you are in your 80s?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Look, I think it's ridiculous out of billions of people in the world, that there's only one person that's appropriate for you to be paired with. Many soulmates, if you are lucky enough to feel that something that you can't put words to, no matter how or any way that that came about, for whatever obstacles are in its place and you can't bring it to fruition at that moment, I would wait. As long as you can wait, you'll know if you can keep waiting or not. You'll know if there's any glimmer of possibility in that other individual's life or feelings or whatever you're sensing or not.

[Katherine Grody]

And it's time to move on to the next soulmate.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yes, you'll know. It's part of what I'm saying. You'll know. And so it's like my mother said to me when I was a little boy, we were watching a black and white movie of a couple walking up these steps of a kind of Washington building, like Mr. Smith goes to Washington. And they were talking about love in a relationship. I was a little kid, I didn't know what they were saying. I said to mom, what are they talking about? Because he said something. She said something to me about. He's saying, don't worry, you'll know about when you fall in love. And I said, what does that mean? And she said, you don't need to know what it means right now. You'll know. And I never forgot that because she wouldn't answer the question. But I heard what she was saying as a child and. And I just think that you, whoever the you are, is out there. Me, mom, you, Anyone listening? We all will know when we have more possibility to be patient and wait and hope and look for the possibility, or when we've exhausted it. We all know the clock is ticking. We all know we're not here forever. We all know life is to be lived now, in this moment. Don't waste it. You don't get a second chance. You get. You get.

[Mandy Patinkin]

But I think this chance, I think it's. It's very significant. Gid when you talk about many soulmates.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

But I gotta interrupt. I said one thing, I just have to correct it. When I said you don't get a second chance. You get. You get infinity chances, you know? You get infinity chances. You know what I mean? I'm not gonna explain it, mom.

[Katherine Grody]

What were you gonna say?

[Mandy Patinkin]

I think the idea that there's only one significant person, some people are very lucky. They find the person they want to share life with right away. They have a great 60 years, 80, 70 years, whatever, and it works for them. Some people find that person and it works for 40 years and something happens, a partner dies or they work for.

[Katherine Grody]

Five years, or it works for five years. Or you had some great friends and.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You had some great. Exactly. I think different people need different kinds of relationships. Some people need the security of a very long term one. Some people need to experiment and it depends on who you grow to be. So I think the myth of finding that one person is not a very helpful thing. You know, it's like we can't believe in some cultures people have, you know, five wives I love the idea of hearing about an Amazon tribe that had six husbands, you know, because that was a whole different.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

You want that?

[Mandy Patinkin]

I don't want that. At this point. I just think somebody's been in a relationship for six years, that's. And a year ago, that's not very long to recover, to refigure who you are. And I think, Emily, you just need to be patient with this person and yourself and not insist on an assumption. At this point, you're just getting to know each other. You knew each other a long time ago. You had a great time at a play. Just be a little casual about the expectation and see who you are now and where it goes.

[Katherine Grody]

Love that. Got one more listener question here. This is an email, and I like this one. Oh, yeah, this is Ma. This is for you to read. This is from Anne Marie.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Okay. Dear Mandy and Catherine, it was Valentine's Day, and I was in college in the late 90s and on a date. My date had made me a fancy dinner in his dorm room. We were seated on the floor with a makeshift table and candles. My date started open to open up a bottle of Kendall Jackson wine, and in reference to the wine, said, my dad always said to go first class. In my head, I asked myself, what is something my dad always said? And then it came to me. My dad always said, shake the mustard before you squeeze. Thank you for hearing the story about my dad. He passed away a year ago. He was one of my most favorite people. Love this project idea. Sincerely, Anne Marie.

[Katherine Grody]

So what was. What was something your mom and dad always used to say?

[Mandy Patinkin]

My dad used to say, how am I doing? Or my mother found that book, you know, one of the first transactional therapy books by Pearls, I think, called I'm okay, you're okay. So she made my dad read that, and he used to go down the hallway saying, I'm okay, you're okay. And it's so funny, I don't remember, like, a particular expression from my mom.

[Katherine Grody]

Recordings of their voices?

[Mandy Patinkin]

I don't think so, kid. Except that one little thing of my dad walking our dog because the technology didn't exist.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

There's no sound with that in the backyard.

[Mandy Patinkin]

In the backyard? No. But I love that you have.

[Katherine Grody]

The dog's name was Rocky.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Rocky.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Rocky.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Shake the mustard before you squeeze. I just.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I couldn't agree more. That's the best advice I've ever heard, and I hope I'm glad we've done this podcast. Just for that reminder, I hope you share that date.

[Katherine Grody]

If I'm remembering You long after you've gone. What do you think will be the sayings in my head? That my mom and dad remember to.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Wash under your penis?

[Mandy Patinkin]

No. Oh, my God.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

That's what I remember my father used to do.

[Mandy Patinkin]

How are you?

[Katherine Grody]

That was.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

And I said it all the time.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Did you have a good time? Oh, I know I'm not supposed to ask that. What shoes can I get for you?

[Katherine Grody]

These are your classic sayings.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, I don't know what my classic saying is.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

No, that is.

[Katherine Grody]

That is what dads want to be.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh, my God.

[Katherine Grody]

Don't forget, wash under your penis. That's what he says. I mean, you said it when we were little, and then it became a joke. And now if we're going on a.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Trip or somewhere, I don't care what age you are.

[Katherine Grody]

Yeah. You say, don't forget to wash under your penis.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I don't know of any particular.

[Katherine Grody]

I don't say it to women, too. I feel like you say that to a lot.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh, my God.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I don't say it to women. I've not said it to women, but it's not a bad thing.

[Mandy Patinkin]

But I hope you shared that with the guy that you were having a date with in college, and I hope he responded well to it.

[Katherine Grody]

What do you remember your mom.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Rain coming down, pouring.

[Katherine Grody]

Do you remember anything that your mom said that was like a consistent saying or something that she would say?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah, but it was a negative thing.

[Katherine Grody]

Oh, really?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Comes to me. I'm trying to think of a positive thing. Well, look, my folks. I don't care what negative things my mom said. It's the positive action that she took that led to my. My gift that I was given by my parents to have the life I wanted to lead and not the life that their friends or relative expected them as parents to insist that their son had a certain kind of education. Go in the junk business. Certain kind of business background and education. How dare they, you know, very influential person in the synagogue who I loved. Their. Their daughters were friends of mine. My mom was friends with the wife and my father. Dad was friends with her husband wrote many, many long letters to my folks. How dare they let Mandy go into show business. This is irresponsible. As a parent, you shouldn't do that. You need to prepare him for the world in a proper way. And my parents stood up to this most powerful man in the community and decided to follow their child's instincts and love and passion.

[Katherine Grody]

How old were you at that?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

This is when I was 15, 16. Getting ready to go to school and I chose the arts. I wanted to go to a school, I wanted to go away to college. I wanted to go to school and study the arts and learn to be an actor. And their community was highly against it. Many, not everybody, but certainly the ones with power. I have these letters, they're amazing letters that my quiet, my father was very quiet, my mother not so much. But that they were not shaken by this influential, powerful individual in their community. And you know what? You know what it reminds me of? Don't be shaken by powerful, rich, oligarchal individuals, whether they're kind or not kind. Don't be shaken by money and power. Listen to your heart, what you believe, your inner truth, the truth of those you love and keep care about. And following your. I'm shouting to the world that do not be intimidated by the world we are experiencing around us. How a lack of kindness, human kindness to our fellow human beings is spreading far too far every minute, every day. And that we need to up the kindness factor and up the empathy factor and lessen the hate and start the listening and the love. I always say in my prayers every day, stop the hatred, the killing and the violence. Start the loving, the compassion, the forgiveness and the understanding within ourselves, to ourselves and to each other. And I please ask myself to do it and ask anybody who can hear me to try to fight for that and not what, what's happening in too many corners of the world to so many vulnerable.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I think my dad said, march to your own drum. March to your own drum. They were very, very supportive of not going with the herd. And that's what I tried to teach my children, you know, to not be cowed by what was necessarily the popular, the in thing, whatever. Unless you agreed with it or unless it spoke to you.

[Katherine Grody]

Yeah, I mean I took that to heart such that in high school the cool thing was having friends and hanging out with people. And I was like, I'm marching to the beat of my own drum. I don't have any friends and I'm spending a lot of time alone.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

So that was good.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Uh huh. I didn't know that. Thank you for sharing that, honey. I thought you were friends with a lot of people.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Look at that rain.

[Katherine Grody]

This rain is amazing. I remember that you thought I was friends with a lot of people.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I did think you had friends.

[Katherine Grody]

No, people thought I was like some people thought I was cool and mysterious because I had a modicum of confidence and was friendly with a lot of people. But I didn't really hang out with a lot of folks because a little bit sort of snobby, you know, judgment that I took. Yeah, I kind of thought all these high schoolers are idiots.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah.

[Katherine Grody]

I think it's in part because I was exposed to a lot of your guys, friends who were like, adults and artists who lived interesting lives and they had crazy stories and they were funny and had experiences. And then high schoolers were, like, smoking weed, drinking, and partying.

[Mandy Patinkin]

That was like, Isaac. You know, when I got in trouble, when he was like, four years old, the nursery teacher brought me in and said that I was preventing him from being part of his culture, because if he went to a Broadway show and went to or so afterwards, the sandbox and grape juice might not be so interesting at nursery school.

[Katherine Grody]

And also when New York centric.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And also, also when he wanted to work, you know, all four years of high school, he wanted to work at a daycare center. And I was sort of like, well, don't you want to, you know, be friends and make friends with guys your own age? And I remember him saying, mom, guys my own age are mostly jerks. I really love taking care of kids. These people are really interesting. And I'm making money. What is your problem?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I'm going to say something. Forgive me, God bless my mother's soul in heaven, but I'm gonna say something that she said to me which was the polar opposite of, you know, your.

[Katherine Grody]

Mother'S soul is in heaven. We just talked about heaven the other day. And you thought, I don't know what it was.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Just feeling guilty because it's gonna.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

No, no, I wanna say something, so I wanna just say, I love my mother. But I learned a lot from this mistake in my belief that my mother made. It's not the thing like shake the mustard, but it's the opposite of what she said that you need to remember. And I remember this. And Catherine, you'll remember it too. I was coming home from the New Performers audition in Chicago, an NBC Chicagoland talent search for high school kids. And there were like, you know, a thousand kids. And. And I got picked with, you know, 24 other kids to be in this little Chicago, you know, musical thing that they did. And. And it was a big deal to me, you know, that I got picked and. And I was in the car on the outer drive driving home, back to the south side of Chicago, and she picked me up. I didn't drive yet. And she said, I just worry that you get too much too soon. I just worry that too much too soon is being given to you. And I Remember that? Like a stab in my heart. I was so excited. And I thought, what are you talking about? And I didn't say anything to her. I felt like, right, this was bad that I got picked. This was bad that I got. That I got picked to be in this thing. And then one day we're watching the Academy Awards and Jody Foster, was it Jodie Foster, she got up and she won an award and she thanked her mother for making every fingerprint painting that she ever made.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Be a Picasso.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Be a Picasso. And I lost it.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I mean, that was part of Dad's empty space that just can't be filled no matter what.

[Katherine Grody]

And how a lot of artists.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

And that may be the gift that she gave me at the same time, because that black hole of empty space is maybe why I work so hard. And I need so much to make that part work, make that story be told the best I can to connect to the listener.

[Katherine Grody]

A gift and a curse, because there's no.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

You can't get one without the other.

[Katherine Grody]

I mean, it's a gift and a curse because you try to fill that hole. And even when you do the best thing and you're celebrated for it and everything, how long does that feeling last?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Doesn't. It doesn't last.

[Katherine Grody]

And I don't think. I do think. I do think it's a myth that you. That to make art and to be a performer, you have to be tortured in this kind of way. A lot of people have that. It's not everyone.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Not true. You don't need it.

[Katherine Grody]

And I think, you know, the degree to which we repeat certain harmful things our parents have given us or do the opposite, you know, that we repeat or go the opposite way is really fascinating. And I think when people are able to see a hurtful thing or hurtful moment and harness it as an example of what not to repeat or to do something different is a real gift, you know, So I love that you can look back on that incredibly painful moment and say, this is. Yeah, this. This can be a lesson.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Wow.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Hold on. We just lost it. It'll come on when the generator comes on.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Wait a minute.

[Katherine Grody]

What did that mean? The lights are still on, but we lost Internet.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

You think the gods got mad and my mother is what made that happen?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

No.

[Katherine Grody]

Hey, everyone, we are in the middle of a rainstorm. The power went out as we were recording. But now we're back, guys, for this last little part today in our hang time. Have you ever listened to the BBC series Desert Island Discs?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah, I've been On it.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yes.

[Katherine Grody]

So I'm just curious if you are on a desert island where you had a record player or CD player or something, ability to play a song. They do three songs. But today, I just want to know, if you could only choose one song that you'd get to listen to over and over again until the end of your days on a desert island, what song would you choose?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Why do we only get one song? That would be so horrible.

[Katherine Grody]

Two songs. And this is. Remember, you're going to spend a lot of time with this. You're going to return to it again and again. I mean, dad, if you did that program, that might have been a different answer back then.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

It is a different answer when it is now.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh, God, it's so pathetic.

[Katherine Grody]

I'm just trying to think of any song.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No. Well, the first thing that just hit me was a song that just kills me because when I first learned it, I believed it. And here we are, which is We Shall Overcome. You know?

[Katherine Grody]

Well, that would be interesting. On a desert.

[Mandy Patinkin]

On a desert island to hear that constantly overcoming your. And then I was gonna. Do.

[Katherine Grody]

You remember hearing that song for the first time? We Shall Overcome?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, I do remember. I was at a. At a civil rights march, and we were all dressed up so they wouldn't dismiss us as hippies, and we were all holding hands, and everybody was saying that song and crying because we really believe we were on the brink of overcoming. And I guess you just have to overcome again and again. And then I was just gonna go, you know, dad singing, children, art. But that would make me sad if I was on an island and there were no children there.

[Katherine Grody]

So what song do you think would get you through the experience of being on a desert island? What would keep.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Joni Mitchell's Blue.

[Katherine Grody]

Joni Mitchell's Blue. That's a real upper.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I'll tell you what comes to me. There was a recording you made around a dinner table at a restaurant with the family with you and Uncle Mike. And I believe mom and I were there. And. And it was on his birthday. It was an amazing thing, and I love that recording. And I think you also made another recording when we were walking across the lawn talking to mom, and. And we were kidding around with mom, and she started. It was about volleyball. Volleyball.

[Katherine Grody]

The origins of volleyball.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Florence Heschel. And then this was whole discussion, that moment made up out of her head while we were walking. We were walking her to the theater. She was doing a play, and we were walking. We're having this guy, and she starts talking About Florence Heschel that she made up. Who. The origins of volleyball.

[Katherine Grody]

The inventor of volleyball.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

And then. And then you morphed it into a different story. A different story. And those are my favorite things that are recorded.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I'm so terrified because I don't think.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I have them on my phone.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, I listen to that, that the other day and I thought it was pretty damn good. And I don't think my mind would do that today. So I'm a little bit doing.

[Katherine Grody]

But I have. I have enjoyed doing that. Capturing little family moments. I mean, long before, you know, social media and everything. People die and then messing with them. Yes, it's my. It's my inability to confront our mortality.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yes.

[Katherine Grody]

But also it's for my own entertainment because I do find you guys entertaining. Do you guys find it satisfying that all these people are asking you for advice when your children would never ask you for advice?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Well, not only would they not ask us, if we accidentally mention something that is in that area, we get smacked.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

It just proves my theory that human beings are the stupidest species on the planet.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah.

[Katherine Grody]

How so?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

They're asking us for advice.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Oh, yeah.

[Katherine Grody]

Well, on that note, folks, thanks for tuning in to listen to us and.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Really don't listen to us, particularly today.

[Katherine Grody]

Molly, you say that every week.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Really? Do I?

[Katherine Grody]

Something like that.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh, well, no, I don't think so.

[Katherine Grody]

See you next week.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Bye.

[Katherine Grody]

Don't Listen to Us is a Lemonada Media original hosted by Mandy Patinkin, Katherine Grody and Gideon Grody Patinkin. Created by Katrina Onstadt, Debbie Pacheco and Gideon Grody Patinkin. Executive producers are Kathryn Grody, Gideon Grody Paninkin, Mandy Patinkin, Katrina Onstadt, Debbie Pacheco, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Whittles wax. Our engineer is Ryan Derringer of Welterweight sound. Video and audio production by Mark Whiteway of Bellows Media. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Media Premium yet, now's the perfect time. You can hear Don't Listen to Us completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like behind the scenes conversations, questions so weird they didn't make it on air, Becky the dog shenanigans and more. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple podcasts. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out.