Risking It All to Become an Artist – and the Truth about Elmo

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Don't Listen To Us with Mandy Patinkin and Kathryn Grody

Episode: Risking It All to Become an Artist – and the Truth about Elmo
Release Date: January 14, 2026
Host: Lemonada Media
Main Participants: Mandy Patinkin, Kathryn Grody, Gideon Grody Patinkin, Special Guest Bill Gerber

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the messy, honest, and often hilarious world of making personal and professional choices as artists—especially when those choices seem risky or out of step with a tumultuous world. With spirited listener questions as a jumping-off point, Mandy, Kathryn, their son Gideon, and longtime friend Bill Gerber debate the "pet peeves" of daily life, the importance of manners, and, most significantly, whether pursuing a life in the arts is right for the next generation. Along the way, listeners get unfiltered showbiz stories, marital banter, and a surprisingly moving discussion about the value of connecting through art—even on (or especially on) a planet in crisis.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter: Relationships, Routines, and Sleep

[02:22 – 04:55]

• The episode jumps straight into familiar, familial chaos: breakfast habits, sleep routines, and affectionate teasing about memory and mottos.

• Kathryn reveals she's never slept 12 hours in her life, while Mandy brags about his marathon sleep and exhaustion from grandparenting.

  • Quote:
    "I passed out at 7:30pm and I woke up at 7:30am. I think that's pretty relatable."
    — Mandy Patinkin [03:30]

• The family jokes about mottos and misremembered aphorisms (“Different strokes for different folks”).

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2. Listener Question: The Case of the Excess Celery

[05:02 – 10:14]

• Listener Susan complains about having to buy too much celery at once and solicits advice.

• Kathryn pragmatically suggests sharing celery with friends (or animals: “Maybe find a nearby goat or llama.”)

• The trio riff on freezing celery, sharing with neighbors, and the mismatch between modern packaging and solo living.

  • Quote:
    “Or she could bring it to our house and it could rot with all the rest of your celery.”
    — Mandy Patinkin [06:05]

• This segues into a bit on mis-matched socks and how life’s annoyances can inspire business ideas.

• Mandy challenges the traditional ingredient choices for tuna salad, suggesting relish instead of celery ("piccalilli" in Chicago) [08:47].

• Kitchen skills are discussed, with Mandy anxiously prepping for an upcoming role as a chef and requesting knife lessons from the family.

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3. Listener Question: What’s Happened to Manners and “Please”?

[12:23 – 20:33]

• Martha, a 57-year-old bookstore employee, laments that people don’t say “please” anymore.

  • Quote:
    "My issue is what happened to please in the world?... I find that people say thank you still, but they don't say please, which really bothers me."
    — Martha (listener) [12:36]

• Kathryn identifies the broader social loss of manners and how screens and pandemic isolation erode human connection.

  • Quote:
    "It's just not manners. It's bigger than that...You don't have to say please or thank you or be recognized—a machine."
    — Kathryn Grody [13:56]

• Mandy admits to working on not interrupting his wife mid-thought, joking about “marital listening skills.”

  • Quote:
    "I would like you to pay attention as this podcast proceeds to my learning curve of not interrupting my wife when she's speaking."
    — Mandy Patinkin [15:45]

• Gideon observes that performance spaces—like podcasts and the stage—force participants to be better listeners.

• Kathryn reminisces about meaningful, thoughtful pauses in historic conversations, referencing James Baldwin and Bill Moyers, and how modern culture expects immediacy.

  • Quote:
    "We were comfortable with people thinking. And then he responded, I know. And we have been totally trained out of that modality."
    — Kathryn Grody [18:14]

• The hosts agree: slowing down, practicing patience, and honoring shared social space is more important—and more radical—than ever.

  • Quote:
    "Taking time for thought, practicing that kind of nuance and patience and not thinking like a friggin machine where you click and then that's it."
    — Kathryn Grody [19:57]

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4. Call a Friend: Bill Gerber Joins for an Artist’s Dilemma

[22:13 – 36:40]

Introduction to Bill Gerber

• Gideon introduces Bill as a decades-long family friend, Broadway and documentary producer, interior designer, and “one of the greatest cooks on the planet.”
• The hosts celebrate old friendships and creative community.

Listener Neil’s Big Question: Does Art Matter When the World Is Burning?

[25:11 – 36:38]

• Neil, a recent high school graduate, wants to study theater in college but feels conflicted—should he focus on “more important” issues in a troubled world or follow his passion for acting?
  • Quote:
    "There's so much going on right now that needs our collective focus and attention. Part of me thinks I could or should be doing something else...But acting is my passion."
    — Neil (listener) [25:16]

Bill Gerber:

• "Art is the only place we have freedom right now is what comes up to me. And you're free to do whatever you want with art because it's your voice." [26:25]
• Encourages volunteering for theater nonprofits in any capacity just to be in the community.

Kathryn Grody:

• Emphasizes the luck and power of having a passion, especially in strange times.
• Suggests Neil seek out innovative formats: “You will find like minded people...and talk to them about how you can create theater art in all sorts of ways that haven’t even been imagined before.” [27:35]
• References "Improv Everywhere" and urges openness to unconventional performance.

Mandy Patinkin:

• Passionate monologue about the power of theater as a space for real human connection, empathy, and even activism.
• Cites Arthur Miller as an example—great theater can change how people live and relate.
  • Quote:
    "If you go see a great playwright like Arthur Miller...and you see Death of a Salesman, if you're paying attention and you're a father, you go out and you call your son and you talk to him and you learn to listen." [31:09]
• Advises Neil (and all artists): “The only mistake you or anyone listening can make if you have the dream...is not to try, try, try, and try again. And if it doesn’t work out, then come up with plan B. But don’t make plan B before you try plan A.” [31:50]

Elmo in Grouchland Story

[32:41 – 33:43]

• Mandy tells a self-deprecating, vulnerable story about feeling he “failed Elmo” during a scene and the comfort he received from his therapist.
  • Quote:
    "I was ready to kill myself. I just thought I failed Elmo...I called my therapist to talk to my therapist about the fact that I let Elmo down…and my therapist said, just stay with the discomfort."
    — Mandy Patinkin [33:29]

Bill Gerber on the Artist’s Life:

• Shares his own journey—starting tap dance at seven, being the only boy in his class, finding intoxicating joy in the arts. [33:48–34:26]

• Laments the removal of voices like Colbert from mainstream networks, underlining the ongoing need for uncensored artistic space. [35:09–35:41]

  • Quote:
    "The thing that's so great about the theater, there is no censorship. The artist rules. The writer rules. And that's what we need more of."
    — Bill Gerber [35:41]

• Final advice to Neil: "Be brave. Don't censor yourself. Don't be afraid because everybody's afraid...and you're in a community of people who are all afraid. So everybody feels exactly the way you do." [35:58]

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5. Theater Stories: Best and Worst Moments

[36:46 – 42:29]

• Gideon asks Kathryn and Mandy to share great or terrible experiences in the theater.

• Kathryn:

  • Chooses seeing Philip Seymour Hoffman in Death of a Salesman as an unparalleled experience [37:16].
  • Mentions Mandy’s Sunday in the Park with George as a litmus test for life compatibility (if someone didn’t like it: “goodbye”).

• Mandy:

  • Recalls being overwhelmed by emotion watching Patti LuPone in Les Misérables, and being permanently changed by moments of "truthful" performance.
  • Quote:
    "When you see someone give it everything they have...that’s what I live for. And she gave it to me...It’s as good as it ever gets."
    — Mandy Patinkin [39:19]
  • He refuses to name "terrible" experiences out of respect for fellow theater-makers.

• Together, they discuss the addictive, transformative nature of live theater and the relentless human search for those experiences.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• "My issue is what happened to please in the world?...I find that people say thank you still, but they don't say please, which really bothers me." — Martha [12:36]
• "It's a way of diminishing the experience that you're having with each other...I think it's great that you're saying, 'it was my pleasure.'" — Kathryn Grody [15:06]
• "Art is the only place we have freedom right now...and you're free to do whatever you want with art because it's your voice." — Bill Gerber [26:25]
• "I'd say in the theater, one of the great, great tasks...is not what you say, but how you listen." — Mandy Patinkin [31:19]
• "The only mistake you or anyone listening can make...is not to try, try, try, and try again...But don't make plan B before you try plan A." — Mandy Patinkin [31:50]
• "Be brave. Don't censor yourself. Don't be afraid because everybody's afraid." — Bill Gerber [35:58]
• "Truthful. Try that word out, folks. Truthful in this climate." — Mandy Patinkin [40:55]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:22] – Family banter: breakfast, sleep, and life mottos
• [05:02] – Listener question about excess celery
• [12:23] – Listener Martha asks about the loss of “please”
• [22:13] – Introduction of Bill Gerber
• [25:11] – Neil’s question: is theater worth it in a troubled world?
• [26:25] – Bill Gerber’s passionate case for the freedom of art
• [31:09] – Mandy’s speech about theater as a space for listening and change
• [33:29] – Mandy’s “Elmo in Grouchland” therapy confession
• [36:46] – Kathryn and Mandy’s best (and not-worst) moments in theater

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Tone and Style

Warm, witty, and brutally honest—this episode features equal measures of hard-earned wisdom, adamant disagreement, self-deprecation, and genuine encouragement. The hosts maintain their signature blend of bickering, playfulness, candid confessions, and respect for each other’s experience. Listeners are offered practical life advice, permission to pursue their passions in uncertain times, reassurance that fear is normal, and an implicit invitation into the ineffable, communal thrill of art.

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In a Nutshell

• The Grody-Patinkin family (and friends) tackle the real dilemmas of art, purpose, and modern life—using humor, candor, and personal stories.
• Pursuing art in a chaotic world isn’t frivolous—it's a vital way to connect, to resist cultural decay, and to stay true to yourself.
• Whether your challenge is too much celery, the erosion of manners, or risking it all for your dream, you’re not alone—and you should “try plan A” first.

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“Don’t listen to us… but try anyway.”

Transcript

[Mandy Patinkin]

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[Narrator/Promoter]

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[Mandy Patinkin]

Lemonada.

[Kathryn Grody]

You can hear every episode of Don't Listen to Us ad free with Lemonada Premium. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com how did you like the.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Breakfast I made you?

[Kathryn Grody]

I really can't eat in the morning. It's funny. Honey.

[Mandy Patinkin]

What did you do with it?

[Kathryn Grody]

I saved it for my lunch.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You didn't eat any of it?

[Kathryn Grody]

I took two bites.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Did you put it in the fridge?

[Kathryn Grody]

I don't need to put it in the fridge.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You're eat cold eggs?

[Kathryn Grody]

Yes, I'm fine with it at lunch.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh my God, Katherine, that's fine.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

What else is going on with you guys? Haven't seen you in a while. How have you been?

[Mandy Patinkin]

I had a good day yesterday. My friend came to help me with some things. We took a walk together. I ran a concert, which always makes me feel better. After we Did a podcast. And then what makes you feel worse? Not taking a four mile hike and not running a concert or not working on my lines.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

If I do those two things, I feel that I have the rest of the day to do what I want. And I usually up at 6, but today I got a plate. I only slept 12 hours. 7:30 to 7:38.

[Kathryn Grody]

One of those things.

[Mandy Patinkin]

So I don't have enough.

[Kathryn Grody]

I've never slept 12 hours in my entire life.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

12 hours is your minimum.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I passed out at 7:30pm and I woke up at 7:30am I think that's pretty relatable.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I think most people shoot for at least 12 hours.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Well, I'm working with these kids all day. You know, my grandchildren. I'm just constantly doing things and it exhausts me.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

How many hours do you get a day, Mom?

[Kathryn Grody]

I'm really thrilled if I get seven.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

If you get seven.

[Kathryn Grody]

I'm thrilled if I get seven.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

When was the last time you got 12?

[Kathryn Grody]

I've never gotten 12 in my entire life. And it used to drive me crazy when I was up with my babies through the night and dad would get up and he'd go, I got 10 hours, or I got only nine, or I got only eight, and I'm working on four, you know, but you know what? Different people have different needs for sleep and rest. And I think dad lives at a very family motto.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Different strokes for different folks.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

That's a family motto. That was the first time I've ever heard that. When you were growing up.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, mom said it to the kids, you and your brother, all the time.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I mean, I've heard different strokes for different folks.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Different strokes for different folks. Are you kidding me? You never heard your mother say that?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I mean, I've heard everyone say.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, no, no. You've heard it from your mother a hundred thousand times. I'm not gonna argue this one because I'm 100% correct in my memory. If you. If you would like to leave me the table and you both can talk to me about how I'm wrong, I.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Believe you are 100% correct in your memory.

[Mandy Patinkin]

There you go. There you go.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

For our first listener question today, we've got an email from Susan and Dad. I'd love you to read that.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Hello, this is Susan, and I have a pet peeve. Why can't I buy just a few stalks of celery? Who on earth uses every piece in those large packages? All I want is enough for my tuna sandwich or my chicken soup. I have thrown out more celery than I have eaten. I live on the east coast, so it may be an east coast thing, but it's very annoying. Thank you for listening to me rant.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Mom and dad, what's your take on salary?

[Kathryn Grody]

I just want to suggest to Susan, first of all. It's a minor problem, Susan, but I think it's solvable. Do you have friends that you can share your purchase of celery with? That might be a good idea. Or is there a goat?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Or she could bring it to our house and it could rot with all the rest of your celery.

[Kathryn Grody]

That's right. We have a lot of good rotting celery. I hate celery, but my grandson likes to feed goats with it. So maybe you could find a nearby goat.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

These are great solutions. Keep going.

[Kathryn Grody]

A nearby goat or a llama. A llama. They like celery. So I would say find a llama.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Or a goat is good.

[Kathryn Grody]

Find neighbors or neighborly animals that you can share your celery with and look up on that great truth telling thing called the Internet and see if celery is actually good for you or not.

[Mandy Patinkin]

East coast llama goat sanctuary.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Celery loving beast.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

What if Susan lives in the middle of a city and she doesn't have access to goats or.

[Kathryn Grody]

Well, then knock on a neighbor's door and say, do you need some celery?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Or like in an apartment building, just kind of go up and down the elevator.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Can you chop it up? Why don't you try that? That's a great idea.

[Kathryn Grody]

Why not?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah.

[Kathryn Grody]

You freeze other vegetables.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah. Let's freeze some celery and see what I think.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

You could freeze celery.

[Kathryn Grody]

I bet you could too. And he's making fun of me.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I want water in it.

[Kathryn Grody]

Chop it up at chop it. Either give it to a neighbor, give it to a goat, chop it up and freeze it.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Put it in your drink instead of ice cubes.

[Kathryn Grody]

There you go.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah. Yeah. Kind of a celery infusion. Although Susan, I have to say I've been. I've been around, been around the world. And I can say it's not an east coast thing. It's celery sold in those stocks, those clumpy stocks everywhere. I think maybe people just eat more celery than Susan. But if you had the choice at the store, would you buy single socks, stocks of celery, Choosing the correct amount that you think is appropriate for your intentions.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Your mispronunciation the first time is what I can respond to. I do buy single socks.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Socks I said.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You said single socks, and then you changed it to stalks of celery. But I. Yes, because I lose one sock.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Where do you buy single socks?

[Mandy Patinkin]

From other fathers my age. Other fathers in their 70s.

[Kathryn Grody]

There's a whole thing about unmatched socks, which was the rage.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

You know, I went to. I went to high school with a. With a kid whose dad was big in the sock business.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

And I never. I never forgot that. It was always such an unusual thing. Yeah. What's your dad? He's in the sock game. Hosiery.

[Kathryn Grody]

Because of everybody losing socks, a company was started, I think by friends of mine I'm not sure of, Mix it. Mix and Match. You know, they're purposely not match socks.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Your friend has a company that sells that does what we do.

[Kathryn Grody]

We do as of him.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Is it a successful company?

[Kathryn Grody]

I think so. I think it's quite successful.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

What's it called?

[Kathryn Grody]

Mix and Match. But I'm not sure I have to.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Look, I don't want to forget to make a different suggestion. The idea of celery and tuna salad.

[Kathryn Grody]

I think freezing is really good.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Excuse me, my turn.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yes.

[Mandy Patinkin]

The idea of celery and tuna salad I'm not in favor of. I know it happens a lot, but I would recommend relish or as we said in Chicago, piccalilli.

[Kathryn Grody]

I hate that.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

And do you have any particular item out of the fridge that you're struggling with these days or it comes too large or it's hard to cut? You're really bad at cutting an onion.

[Kathryn Grody]

We have to fix that.

[Mandy Patinkin]

My friend Julie is wife said that she wanted to teach me how to cut an onion. And then I realized she must have seen that thing you put on social media where you said a lot of people were concerned about how I'm cutting an onion. And in fact, I am playing someone in a movie that I'll be making soon who's a master chef. So I have asked you to please coach me on the proper way to, you know, hone my cutting skills.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I mean, I hope they have some resources to get you to master chef because I can get you from like person who looks like he's about to stab himself in his wrists to person who can cut.

[Mandy Patinkin]

We'll get a hand match, stand in, who can do it, and they'll cut to his hands.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Gotcha.

[Kathryn Grody]

Anyway, Susan, I hope these are helpful.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah, I think we really just changed.

[Kathryn Grody]

We really changed your life regarding your relationship with Sel.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

You're welcome.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And Susan, remember, you can eat more meat.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

That's a Great point to add.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, get away from the vegetables.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Tired of salary. Pork sausage.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You make my Uncle Shmuly happy. He used to raise red Angus cows. He's now in heaven. I'm not sure what he's raising up there.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah, probably cows. Uncle Shmuley's heaven is definitely full of cows.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah, full of red Angus cows it is. Honestly, I'm kind of famous within my family and among my friends about how much I hate to cook. And Marley Spoon has been a game changer. I mean, it's genuinely changed how I cook at home. You know, you get these pre proportioned fresh ingredients and chef developed recipes. They're also unusual and they're easy. Even for somebody like me who finds anything to do with kitchen totally intimidating. And I made this za' atar chicken. I'm so bored with chicken. I mean, we have it all the time and it's always the same onions, a little salt, pepper. But their za' atar chicken with tahini and the special spice really was an exciting meal. And then the other day Gid made something and I thought he's a great cook. So I just assumed it was his. It was this shrimp recipe with this farro and this sauce and greens. I mean it was fantastic. It didn't taste like sort of a packaged meal. It tasted like really fresh, delicious, original cooking. Something like a real cook would make. So this new year, fast track your way to eating well with Marley spoon. Head to marleyspoon.com/offer don't listen for up to 25 free meals. That's right. Up to 25 free meals with Marley Spoon. That's marley spoon.com offer don'tlisten for up to 25 free meals.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Next. Next we've got a question from Martha and she, she has some thoughts on manners. Let's hear her message now.

[Narrator/Promoter]

Mandy and Catherine, I absolutely love your videos. And I wish my parents were still alive today because I would do it with them. I'm 57 years old. My name is Martha Zieman. My issue is what happened to please in the world. I work at a bookstore, a local independent female owned bookstore. And I find that people say thank you still, but they don't say please, which really bothers me. But I am letting it go as much as possible. And when people say thank you to me, I say instead of you're welcome, I'm saying it's my pleasure. And that has helped me get a better attitude and not be all about them not saying please. So anyway, that's my thing. But I really would love to know your thoughts on what's up with the lack of pleasing the world. And I'm really, really, really excited about this podcast.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Martha, it's been my pleasure to hear you this morning. And if I could please ask my wife to give us the pleasure of her response to your pleasant question. I could only thank you for bringing it up and hope that everyone who's listening will please, please, please enjoy the pleasurable response of my beautiful wife.

[Kathryn Grody]

Martha, I am so with you about the lack. It's just not manners. It's bigger than that. I think it's a whole generation that's been raised on screens, got done in by Covid. You don't have to say please or thank you or be recognized. A machine. You know, I am with you on this. I go crazy if somebody. It's. It's. I find a lot.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Also, a little note. I don't think she was just saying it's younger people. I think she was finding it's across the board.

[Kathryn Grody]

Across the boards. Well, I'm curious about that, Martha, because I find definitely younger people. If I go into a store, it's not that they don't say. I say, hi, how are you? And they kind of maybe hear me. And then I'll repeat it. Sometimes I'll say, hi, how's your day going? And they'll look at me and go, oh, okay, great. Can I find such and such? Yeah, it's over there. And they'll wave sort of vaguely in a direction, and I'll go wandering around and I'll come back, and I'm saying, I'm sorry, I'm confused about which aisle or what. Could you help me?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Where's the celery?

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah, I mean, I think it is.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

So you're saying you're still a current practitioner of.

[Kathryn Grody]

I am a practitioner of manners. With my grandchild, with my children, with my husband, with myself. And I just. It is an irritant that scares me because I think it's a way of not recognizing our common humanity with each other in a public space, when you're not an intimate person, but you're just sharing your neighborhood. And it's a way of diminishing the experience that you're having with each other. So I think it's great that you're saying, it was my pleasure. I'm curious. I bet people look at you sometimes and go, does anybody ever go, huh? It was your pleasure. What?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Martha, I would like you to pay attention as this podcast proceeds to my learning curve of not interrupting my Wife when she's speaking, which is something I've been working at for, you know, just a short time, 47 years, and I'm getting better at it. But it is a manner that I have even I find offensive when I do it far too often. And she sometimes does it to me, but I never am offended by her ill manners.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

That's my personal favorite, is when you're both constantly interrupting each other. That's when it's really easy.

[Kathryn Grody]

That's what I'm finding here.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Both of you claiming that the other one is called.

[Kathryn Grody]

What is that called? Marital listening. I mean, it's really. We do not help each other practice our listening skills by doing that. We just sort of eradicate our listening skills.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I do think doing a podcast or talking on stage or something helps, helps. Or even if we record a video, because you are more aware of your behavior in front of an audience and some part of your brain goes, I want to present the best part of my being. So you interrupt less. Well, even if you think you've given up some part of your brain, you interrupt less, you listen better. I mean, that's part of the fun of this.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Excuse me. I don't want to interrupt you, but we've all been exposed to watching these talking head news programs, or whatever you call these programs, where two people, three, four, or five, yell at each other or talking at the same time. You know, yelling at each other. It's just maddening. You just want to, you know, go for the refrigerator and get the hell out of there.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Go for the refrigerator.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Go to the refrigerator.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

What happens at the refrigerator?

[Mandy Patinkin]

You get some celery and something you can munch on.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's my father's idiosyncratic brain. The refrigerator is the escape.

[Kathryn Grody]

Escape.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Oh, because it has the places to eat. To eat.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Get away from what you're watching. That's annoying. You go to the refrigerator, get something to eat. Like a stalk of celery.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Right, right, right.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I'm following.

[Kathryn Grody]

I remember when I. When I ran into Bill Moyers, I had the pleasure of meeting him, like, 10 years ago, and I just was. He was one of my favorite people. And I said, I missed you so much. Could you bring that show back? And he said, I would love to, but people can't have conversations anymore.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Huh?

[Kathryn Grody]

They can't listen and respond. You know, if you look at I Am not yout Negro, the documentary about the great James Baldwin, it's fascinating. Cavett asks a question and. And there's a big Huge pause. And the audience doesn't go hoo hoo or anything. They're all quiet while Baldwin thinks. We were comfortable with people thinking. And then he responded, I know. And we have been totally trained out of that modality.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Let's see if we can have some of that on this podcast. If you ever have a thought and you're thinking and you see your partner thinking, don't feel the need to jump in.

[Kathryn Grody]

Okay, that's a good idea.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Let them think. And one of my favorite things that dad ever did in the press, it was like CBS Sunday Morning or something, asking you a question. And they're like, what? Like how do you, I don't know, have a positive attitude or some question? And you thought and you said, well, let me think. And then you literally.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And they waited. They didn't edit.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

It was the most incredible editing decision I've seen in a mainstream news piece. I remember that dad literally just thought for like 90 seconds, like a lot of people do. Yeah. And the interviewer was just standing there and then he said, I don't know.

[Mandy Patinkin]

But they didn't cut it out.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

They didn't cut out. It's literally my favorite clip of you in anything.

[Kathryn Grody]

So this is great, Martha.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And they weren't in a hurry.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Well, that's what you get. Yeah, that's what you get. If you're a famous guy. People might sit there and listen and wait for you for 90 seconds to say. And then it'll be charming if you say you don't know. But most of us don't have people just waiting for us for 90 days.

[Kathryn Grody]

But I want to say that I love what Martha's I love what Martha's question inspired. Because not only did it inspire us, agreeing with her about bringing back a level of interaction that can be called manners or politeness, but it's really recognizing your common humanity. But also the idea of taking time to think, taking time for thought, you know, practicing that kind of nuance and patience and not thinking like a friggin machine where you click and then that's it.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Thanks, Martha.

[Kathryn Grody]

Thank you, Martha.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Thank you, Martha. Thank you.

[Kathryn Grody]

I really, really.

[Mandy Patinkin]

It was a pleasure.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

We're not big drinkers here in the grody Patinkin household. We like healthy everything. But I do love the idea, the idea, the idea of a good cocktail. Recently we've been talking in our family and we tried Little Saints. It's a real cocktail experience. I'm telling you. This is the Emma's. That's Yiddish for the truth without the Alcohol, There is zero sugar. I like that because I'm trying not to have sugar. I'm working out every day. I'm doing everything I can to get younger and stay healthy and live a long life so I can play with my grandkids. It has only 5 calories and it is non intoxicating. It's enhanced with nature's neuroscience. How do I know that? Because I love science. Functional botanicals like lion's mane, Reishi and damiana. I think I'm saying that right. If not, Google it. And you can correct me when you see me. And I feel good about serving it at a party. It's something everyone can enjoy. Please visit little saints.com to explore their cocktails. And don't forget to use the code. Don't listen to get 15% off your first order. Say it with me, Little Saints. A real cocktail experience without the alcohol. Little Saints products are non alcoholic. Functional ingredients are not intended to diagnose, treatment or cure any condition.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

You guys can put your headphones in when you're ready. And we are going to try something new today. It's called call a friend. And it's someone, someone who's gonna join us and we're gonna say hi to them and then they're gonna hear the question from a listener with us and help us talk about that question.

[Mandy Patinkin]

So it's three of us responding to the question.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

So. Hi, friend, are you there? Hello, friend.

[Bill Gerber]

Hello. Can you lower?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yes.

[Bill Gerber]

Can you hear me?

[Mandy Patinkin]

They don't know who I am.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah, that's William.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Can Bill see us? Yes, I can see you. Hello, man.

[Kathryn Grody]

Really?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Hey, Bill.

[Kathryn Grody]

Oh, my.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

This is our dear friend Bill Gerber. Amazing individual human being and old, dear friend. Old, dear friend. Bill has had ton of varied experience as a professional. He's been on Broadway as a song and dance man. He's been an interior designer.

[Kathryn Grody]

The best I know.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Broadway producer and a documentary film producer and a man of many hats.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And one of the greatest cooks on the planet. And one of the greatest. But even more important, one of the greatest friends. And I'm not just whistling Dixie.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

One of the greatest friends, one of the greatest partners, One of the greatest dog dads.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, his dog Gary.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah, a great friend. He's gonna hang out.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Bill, this is the whole segment we just talked about. How you doing today, Bill?

[Bill Gerber]

I'm doing. I'm doing okay. I'm sitting here with a bottle of water and a cup of coffee and I'm ready.

[Mandy Patinkin]

All right, good. Join the club.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

How long have you guys known Bill.

[Kathryn Grody]

I've known Bill the longest. I've known you, William. Didn't we figure out it was 50 years recently?

[Bill Gerber]

Yeah, we've known each other at least 50 years.

[Kathryn Grody]

At least 50 years.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I met him 78. Right when we met, right?

[Bill Gerber]

No, no, it was in the 70s. Keaton introduced us.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I think we can say 40 to 60 years.

[Bill Gerber]

You got it.

[Narrator/Promoter]

Yeah.

[Kathryn Grody]

Okay. It's about 52 years.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Do you remember when you met me, Bill?

[Bill Gerber]

I met you, actually, Gideon. I do. I do remember when I met you. You didn't speak at the time.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Bill Gerber]

You maybe cried.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Bill Gerber]

Or smiled.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Well, I'm smiling now. Kai, Bill's on the phone with us, and let's have a listen to this question from one of our friends out there. I'm gonna read it for us. Okay?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

So it says, hi, Mandy and Catherine and Bill.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

My name is Neil, and I have a question for you guys, Neil. But I do want to first say, Mandy, I've been a huge fan of your work ever since I saw Elmo in Grouchland as a kid. So three years ago, I graduated high school, and this year I'm deciding to go to college to study theater. And it was a weird decision for me to come to just because there's so much going on right now that needs our collective focus and attention. And part of me thinks that I could or should be doing something else over the next four years or focusing on a more important topic than theater. But acting is my passion, and it is what I want to do. So my question for you guys is, what are your thoughts on the role of art of any kind, Performance, movies, theater, etcetera, in our current society? Thank you, guys. Good question. Yeah, thank you for that question.

[Bill Gerber]

Yeah, Bill.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I'm gonna let Bill go first.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah, I'd love Bill. What's your advice to Neil about all this? Well, what comes up for you?

[Bill Gerber]

Well, what comes up for me is that art is the only place we have freedom right now is what comes up to me. And you're free to do whatever you want with art because it's your voice. And express your voice, express your thoughts. Don't censor yourself. Be who you are as much as possible in the creative form you choose. If it's acting that you want to do, then the first thing to do is see everything and volunteer, volunteer, volunteer at all the non profits because they all need help, especially now. So that would be a first good step to take.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

You mean the nonprofits with. With acting and in the arts or.

[Bill Gerber]

As be an Usher, sell merchandise, stand behind the ticket booth. Just be in the atmosphere of the theater.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Mm, I love that.

[Kathryn Grody]

I couldn't agree more with my friend that, that I don't think art has ever been more important to practice. Follow your passion. There was a great educator that said to parents, you're very lucky if your kid has a passion. You don't get to choose it. If theater is what your passion is, go for it. But think very originally about how to practice it in these very strange times. You will find like minded people when you study it and talk to them about how you can create theater art in all sorts of ways that haven't even been imagined before. Whether it's on the streets or in, you know, in the lobby of the Grand Central Theater. There was that wonderful art form that was around for a while where this group, what was it called? Gid, where all of a sudden you'd be in a public space and people would be doing these amazing things.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

You mean improv everywhere? Yeah, improv everywhere.

[Kathryn Grody]

Improv everywhere. It was incredible. Do you remember this thing?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

This is kind of the double edged sword of like technology. It's democratized, like the creative ability to put your thing out anywhere anybody can record themselves, anybody can post it for the whole world to see. And on the other side, people aren't going to live things. We're not going to movie theaters because everybody's watching things alone.

[Mandy Patinkin]

They're not in the community together.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

What comes up for you, dad, with this?

[Mandy Patinkin]

I heard in your note that you were talking about the world and things that are concerning to you about the world right now and asking is the theater a viable possibility, alternative to other possibilities. I think what you were saying in your note is that you wanted to connect with humanity and you wanted to make a difference with what humanity needs. What humanity needs. Absolutely. And I heard in your first comment before you got to the theater that I think this guy's going to be a politician. And then I thought to myself, I. We need politicians like this person because the politicians in many areas, some we have, are good and caring and under threat in different ways. But we need young people to go into leadership for our cities, states, our country, other countries in the world to make a difference, to make changes that will give people the freedoms that this country was founded on and that people came to our country to embrace and have. And we need people who care about connecting and I don't know personally for me a better venue than the live theater because we are in community together in that room, in that space, in that theater, in that auditorium, and we breathe the same air. Sometimes you get Covid, but sometimes you get ideas and you get strength and you get the power to understand that I, too, can have the courage to make the changes that a character in the play made that saves someone's life or the whole message of the play. I'm going to take that out into my life, into the world. If you go see a great playwright like Arthur Miller and you see Death of a Salesman, if you're paying attention and you're a father, you go out and you call your son and you talk to him and you listen to him and you learn to listen. I'd say in the theater, one of the great, great tasks and gifts of being a communicator in any area, but particularly in the theater, is not what you say, but how you listen. And I love you for wanting to go into the communication arts. I wish you well. We need you and everyone else who has that dream. And the only mistake you or anyone listening can make if you have the dream or the desire to communicate with others in any area of existence is not to try, try, try and try again. And if it doesn't work out, then come up with plan B. But don't make plan B before you try plan A. And I'm there to applaud you and cheerlead you for the whole ride.

[Kathryn Grody]

And I hope, Neil, that you see from what William has said and Mandy and me, that if anybody thinks theater is unnecessary or superficial or just an ego thing, it isn't. It's one of the oldest arts around. I also want to say, Neil, you're the only person that, as a kid, watched Elmo and Grouchland and found that inspiring as opposed to terrifying.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Are you kidding me? Did we.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Messages all the time.

[Kathryn Grody]

There was kids.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Well, you don't read them just from this podcast we've gotten.

[Kathryn Grody]

Never mind, Neil. I'm off on that.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Elmo and Grouchland changed my life. Elmo and Grouchland is my biggest aspiration. The way you tell Elmo's blankie I never can.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I tell Neil my Elmo Grouchland story that I find embarrassing but true. It's about communicating and how neurotic I am to connect and how important it is to me. I had a scene in Elmo and Grouchland with just Elmo and Me, and I felt I was off in that scene, and I felt I wasn't focused and I wasn't listening and responding the way I wished to be with Elmo. And we finished it and I went to the trailer and I was ready to kill myself. I just thought I failed Elmo. And I. Seriously, I'm not kidding you. I called my therapist to talk to my therapist about the fact that I let Elmo down and I can't let it go. And my therapist said, just stay with the discomfort.

[Kathryn Grody]

Your therapist said, I get these kind.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Of Elmo calls all the time.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah. And also. But I. But, you know, Elmo. Elmo's okay.

[Kathryn Grody]

So, William, it's interesting. What was your trajectory from your singing and dancing?

[Bill Gerber]

I've been doing it since I've been a kid. You know, I started with tap dancing when I was seven years old. So it's always been a part of my. My life performing and being in the arts. And when I was a kid, I was the only boy in the dance class of about 20 girls. So naturally, I always got a solo number, which was very intoxicating. And that kind of put the bug in my ear. I got a lot of attention. And as you both know, I like attention.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

There's a great video of Bill and Lily Tomlin doing the Christmas special or something or whatever the fuck. Anyway, Bill, keep going.

[Bill Gerber]

I did Lily Tomlin's first special. First time I was ever on television with Richard Pryor and Alan Alda, and that was quite an experience. It was the same year that my son Max was born. Actually, it was in the same month. So I was. I was running from. We did it at cbs Television City. I hate to mention cbs, because they took Colbert off the air and I'm not looking at CBS ever again. So cut this out of the thing. I don't even want anybody.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, don't worry. No. Shame on cbs. And thank you for saying that. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, Shame on them.

[Bill Gerber]

Shame on them. The most important voice on television, they obliterate. He and Jon Stewart. They can't. Jon Stewart, though.

[Mandy Patinkin]

They'll be back in some other place that's the more appropriate home for them and for all of us. You will not silence us, no matter what. Voices like Neil and Steven and yours and all of ours will be heard, I promise.

[Bill Gerber]

The thing that's so great about the theater, there is no censorship. The artist. The artist rules. The writer rules. And that's what we need more of.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Any last thoughts here for Neil before we say goodbye?

[Bill Gerber]

For Neil? Any thoughts? I think just be brave. Be brave. Don't censor yourself. Don't be afraid because everybody's afraid.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And.

[Bill Gerber]

And you're in A community of people who are all afraid. So everybody feels exactly the way you do.

[Kathryn Grody]

That's great, William.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Thank you.

[Kathryn Grody]

Embrace fear. I'm gonna see you soon, William. I can't wait for our date.

[Bill Gerber]

I can't wait.

[Mandy Patinkin]

We have a date.

[Kathryn Grody]

I got so excited, I just spilled my coffee on myself because I was excited. Excited about our day.

[Bill Gerber]

I'm so happy to see the two of you.

[Mandy Patinkin]

We love you.

[Kathryn Grody]

I love you.

[Mandy Patinkin]

We love you back. We'll see you soon. Thanks for doing.

[Bill Gerber]

My pleasure.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Okay, bye. Bye.

[Kathryn Grody]

My pleasure.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Guys. In this last. We get to our last part. Just a little hang time part where we take a break from the intensity of the world. And off. Neil's comment. Wanted to talk theater for a second. Curious. If I asked you guys, what's a terrible experience in the theater that comes to mind or your best experience in the theater or a great one, which one would you pick? What would come to the top?

[Kathryn Grody]

Philip Seymour Hoffman in Death of a Salesman. That was Mike Nichols production where he was so brilliant he didn't have to invent anything new. He did it just the same. And I thought that was one of the most extraordinary movie. And. And I. Dad and I saw it together. We'd always sort of fantasized doing that play together. And we both looked at each other and said, we don't have to.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Wow. None of the great ones involved her husband.

[Mandy Patinkin]

What can you do?

[Kathryn Grody]

Well, I was going to say. I was gonna say Sunday in the park with George, but it seemed a little obnoxious.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

You had your chances.

[Kathryn Grody]

Okay, well, so.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And you'll pay for it.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah, but.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah. A terrible or a great experience that.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I would never say publicly, I'd save it to you or mom. Privately, I would never say publicly anything terrible. Because anytime.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

It terrible in your own experience.

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, I won't say. No if I'm saying it's terrible in my experience. You know, it's hurtful to the people you work with. Makers.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And being a theater maker myself and being out there, and that's what I. I love to do. I have my difficult moments. I have my tough nights. And, you know, I live in a glass house. I'm not about to throw a stone at it. Great moments that I've had, my goodness. Seeing Sammy Davis Jr. And with Anthony Newley in a dinner tent theater on the suburb of Chicago. In the suburb of Chicago. I was in high school. Somebody drove me. I didn't drive yet. And I just looked at that and I went, God, I'd love to do that. And Then I've just seen countless moments. Patti LuPone, my dear friend, when Kath and I were in London doing something, I was filming something there and we went to see her in Les Mis. I could figure it out if I. If we knew. No, it was Les Mis. We saw her in Company too. But this was early on in our life. She was in Les Mis and she sang the one song she had. And I remember mom was sitting on my left, just like she is now. And I just started to bawl. I couldn't breathe, I couldn't talk. I just watched her and I just couldn't hold back my emotions. I was so, so moved. And then she looked at me and she just calmed me down because there's more show to go on. I was desperately trying to keep it quiet and not disturb people around me. And I remember saying to her, I love this form. And that was as good as it ever gets. Even just remembering it, I can't ever forget it. It's as she does it. She did it that moment and many times after. As good as it gets. And when you see something you love and you see someone give it everything they have, whatever area of life it is, I think it's everything that you could ask for in this world where people don't give in the mediocrity and they give it everything they have, win, lose or draw. And that's what I live for. And she gave it to me. And I could probably go on and on and on with these memories, but those are the ones that hit me first. And thanks for asking.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

And I think those of us who've had the privilege of getting to witness a moment like that or a show like that or scene like that or a performance, once it's in you, you'll keep searching and chasing that for the rest of your experience as an art maker or a consumer. You're like, how can I find that again? Because it's so powerful.

[Mandy Patinkin]

It's really. It's a natural high. And it's absolutely identical medically or chemically to the way people get addicted to things that are negative for their existence. But it is as addictive when you see someone be truthful. Truthful. Try that word out, folks. Truthful in this climate. And you see them be truthful in a way that stands out and you have no words to explain, changes your life.

[Kathryn Grody]

If I ever meet anybody, it's like a litmus test. If somebody loved Sunday in the park with George, I know I'm going to get along with them. And if somebody didn't it's goodbye. Because that for me, who didn't really like musical theater.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Are you kidding me? You would not. You would not keep investigating a relationship with an individual who didn't like a show that your husband was in.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah, my husband in the world. One of the great music.

[Mandy Patinkin]

She hated musical comedy. She said, I hate that form. And she picked me. This is not the smartest comedy have you done.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah, not musical comedy. He did falsettos.

[Mandy Patinkin]

That was. That was pretty. That had a lot of heart. That wasn't just comedy. I did funny thing happen on the way to the Forum that Steve Sondheim wrote. The only musical comedy repertory theater.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Is that the only musical comedy?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Well, it's all called musical comedy.

[Kathryn Grody]

No, it isn't. It's called music theater.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Okay? This is called teaching Mandy about his own profession.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yeah, it is. I thought it was musical.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

This was so musical comedy. If it's a musical comedy. What am I saying?

[Mandy Patinkin]

We're out of time.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Well, that's our show for this week, folks. Thanks for tuning in.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And remember, don't listen to us.

[Kathryn Grody]

So please.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

We want to hear from you more questions, stories, advice, recipes, jokes, DIY projects, annoying things. Diy.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Diy. Do you know what that stands for?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Do it yourself or D R Y, Whatever that means. You can send an email to askmandiancapanmail.com or check out our socials for an easy way to send us a voice note. Thanks so much.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And I'm tired. I'm gonna take a nap.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

We're gonna take a group nap now. That's what we do. We do these shows and then we take a nap.

[Kathryn Grody]

Group nap to recover.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Have a great day or night. And as my friend Mark always said.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Don't listen to us is a Lemonada Media original hosted by Mandy Patinkin, Kathryn Grody and Gideon Grody Patinkin. Created by Katrina Onstad, Debbie Pacheco and Gideon Grody Patinkin. Executive producers are Kathryn Grody, Gideon Griddy Peninken, Mandy Padinkin, Katrina Onstadt, Debbie Pacheco, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Whittles Wax. Our engineer is Ryan Derringer of Welterweight Sound. Video and audio production by Mark Whiteway of Bellows Media. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Media Premium yet, now's the perfect time. You can hear Don't Listen to Us completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like behind the scenes conversations, questions. So weird they didn't make it on air. Becky the Dog Shenanigans and more. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple podcasts, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app, or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Hi everyone, Gideon here.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Mandy and Catherine are going to be at the 92nd Street Y in New York on Thursday, January 22nd at 7:30pm they'll be on stage talking with the one and only Faith Salee from CBS Sunday Morning about our podcast. Don't Listen to us about their marriage, about New York, and about anything else that they can think of. You can get tickets to see the talk in person or online by going to92ny.org that's92ny.org.