Should You Stay or Leave When You Hate Where You Live?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Should You Stay or Leave When You Hate Where You Live?"

Podcast: Don’t Listen To Us with Mandy Patinkin and Kathryn Grody
Host: Lemonada Media
Date: April 1, 2026
Episode Theme: Navigating Big Moves, Grief, and Making Meaning

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Episode Overview

This episode of "Don't Listen to Us" centers on two main listener dilemmas:

1. Adjusting to life after a big move and deciding when—or if—it’s time to stay or leave.
2. Grappling with grief and the many ways we continue bonds with loved ones we’ve lost.
   Through candid, overlapping conversations—mixing jokes, stories, and moving reflections—Mandy, Kathryn, and their son Gideon, joined by grief expert Carla Fernandez, share personal experiences, differing advice, and comfort for listeners facing uncertainty.

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Opening Banter: Jokes, Storytelling, and Family Dynamic

[00:05 - 02:25]

• Joke Segment:
  • Gideon prompts Kathryn to explain a joke, “Why do Canadians hate orgies?” (Answer: “Because of all the thank you notes they have to write.”) Kathryn calls it “so dumb” and says she doesn’t get most jokes.
  • Mandy tells a long-form joke/story about Mendel and Izzy, which is ultimately revealed to be about a bull in Montana, not the afterlife—Kathryn finds “funny” because it subverts expectations and is narrative-driven.
  • The segment sets up the trio’s playful, unscripted approach, contrasting Kathryn's love of narrative with the others' love of humor.

Notable Quote:

• Kathryn on jokes:

  • “I find the whole idea of jokes a really poor comedic expression.” (00:34)

• Kathryn on humor:

  • “It’s a story. It’s a narrative story… the expectation is heaven and the reality of being this animal… That I think is funny.” (02:11)

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Key Listener Question 1: How Long to Give a New Place?

[03:11 - 07:07]

Listener “Debbie” Asks:

“How long should you give it when you move to a brand new place?” (03:11)

Kathryn’s Perspective:

• Applauds Debbie’s bravery for moving later in life.
• Mentions people who move in mid or later life often live longer—new environments stimulate the mind.
• Practical advice:
  • “Start off with meeting your neighbors… What stores or coffee shops can you visit on a regular basis? Get to know the people that work there.” (03:43)
  • “I would do everything you could for at least one year.” (06:04)

Mandy’s Perspective:

• Contrarian and blunt:
  • “The fact that she asked the question is the answer. She should move back home immediately.” (04:22)
• Shares anecdote about friends moving (and ultimately not moving) to Ireland, and reminisces about moving within New York.
• Argues that for someone older, time is too precious to spend feeling out of place:
  • “You’re not going to have time to adjust to a house in another land. Just go home.” (06:50)

Gideon’s Summary:

• Contrasts approaches:
  • Kathryn: “Give it at least a year. Meet everyone you can. Get to know the landscape.”
  • Mandy: “If it doesn’t feel right, go back home immediately.” (06:30-06:44)

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Key Listener Question 2: Collisions of Grief, Butterflies & Dolly Parton (with Carla Fernandez)

[08:26 - 35:14]

Introduction of Guest Expert

Carla Fernandez—grief advocate, writer, and co-founder of The Dinner Party—joins to add depth on coping with grief.

[08:41 - 09:18]

Listener “Wendy” Writes:

Wendy’s brother died young; she’s comforted by “collisions” of inconsolable grief, monarch butterflies, and Dolly Parton. Wonders:

• How do we heal from stacked losses?
• Where does the “matter” of a person go after death?
• What if we grieved outside the usual frameworks?
• Can grief be “funny” or absurdist?

Wendy’s Description:

“…the collisions of disconnected things that other grievers have cobbled together…” (09:59)
“Is grief ever funny in a gallows humor way, in an absurdist way?” (11:10)

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On Grief, Ritual, and Continuing Bonds

Carla Fernandez:

• Describes cultural shift:
  • “Science is disproving [Freud]—the magic is not about breaking bonds… it’s about finding these magical small ways to continue their presence in your life.” (13:43)
• Encourages unique, personal rituals—as in Wendy’s connection with butterflies and music:
  • “Hell, yes. That’s the whole point of the game—how do we find ways to continue our connection?” (14:10)
• Discusses “Dinner Party”—honest, collective engagement with loss includes humor, found objects, awkwardness.
  • “There is hysterical mishaps and confusing moments and awkward conversations that the only appropriate response is to laugh.” (15:27)

Kathryn:

• Affirms that ritual and meaning-making are individual—and transformative.
  • “I deeply believe we transform. And I’m continually looking for the matter that has transformed from who I’ve lost…” (12:47)
• Shares personal story of releasing a loved one’s ashes, only to be covered in them by a gust of wind:
  • “A gale-sized wind out of nowhere came and covered me… My brother said, ‘That’s him not ever letting you go…’” (18:20)

Mandy:

• Claims a “grief vitamin” practice:
  • Recites out loud, daily, the names of loved ones lost:
    • “I say the name out loud of every person that was a part of my existence… so when my time comes… they will be there.” (26:44)
  • Belief in science, energy:
    • “Energy never dies. Therefore, in my belief system, all matter is energy, and all of that matter never dies… you can breathe them in if you choose to.” (24:43)
• Shared humorous ritual:
  • Sees a housefly as a sign of his father; recounts concert story where a housefly “lands right on my finger” during a song. (20:05-21:11)

Carla’s Monarch Butterfly Story:

• Ties Wendy’s story to her own:
  • “My dad…lived in [a town]… one of the overwintering spots for the monarchs… The monarchs that return… are three or four generations later, and yet there’s this magnetic pull…” (21:34-22:27)

Wider Reflections:

• All agree that “signs”—whether dreams, creatures, found objects, or music—are meaningful because we make them so.
• The absurdity and surprise in grief are not only normal, but can be sources of connection, comfort, even laughter.
• Carla: “Tending to grief is actually a creative process. It requires you to kind of tap into what? Someone’s spirit and legacy is different from anybody else.” (18:46)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Carla on cultural evolution in grieving:

  • “100 years ago, Freud… explained that if someone was continuing bonds with somebody that was dead… there was something wrong with them… And we’re now at a point where science is disproving… It’s about finding these magical small ways to continue their presence in your life.” (13:14)

• Mandy’s grief ritual:

  • “As long as there’s one person on Earth who remembers you, it isn’t over.” (Quoted from Carousel) (25:54)
  • Reciting names of lost loved ones “so when my time comes… they will be there.” (26:44)

• On humor and grief:

  • Carla: “I have nearly pissed my pants laughing so many times, talking to people about dead people, their experience of grief.” (15:27)
  • Kathryn’s ashes story: “At the moment I went like this with his ashes, a frigging gale-sized wind… came and covered me from head to… with Jeffrey.” (18:20)
  • Mandy: “Every time we see a house fly, I decided that’s my dad. The ones I kill are not my dad.” (19:16)

• Kathryn on receiving “signs”:

  • “I walked by it the other day, and I noticed… a little bit of writing like, that he’d cut out… It was this incredible quote that he put on this collage in 1986. And it just felt to me like, okay, okay, that’s a sign.” (32:06 - 33:05)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening banter and jokes: 00:05 – 02:25
• Listener question—staying or leaving after a big move: 03:11 – 07:07
• (Ad break/content resumes): 07:22 – 08:26
• Guest intro—Carla Fernandez: 08:26 – 09:18
• Wendy’s grief question: 09:46 – 11:50
• Deep dive on unique grief rituals and continuing bonds: 13:14 – 22:50
• Personal stories from Kathryn, Mandy, Carla: 16:30 – 22:27
• Mandy’s “grief vitamin” ritual: 24:43 – 27:38
• Reflections on “signs,” dreams, and the absurdity in grief: 29:35 – 33:05
• Closing and gratitude for Wendy’s letter: 34:10 – 34:23

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Episode Tone & Style

• Warm, unscripted, overlapping voices reflecting true family dynamics.
• Deep storytelling and narrative, especially around loss and memory.
• Balances candor about pain with humor and irreverence.
• Emphasis on making meaning out of everyday, personal rituals.

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Summary Takeaways

• It’s normal to struggle after a move—some need time to find “home”, others know quickly if it won’t work.
• Grief is highly individual—rituals, symbols, humor, and “collisions” of comfort (butterflies and Dolly Parton) are not only valid, but powerful tools for carrying connection forward.
• Meaning-making in grief can look like conversation, a daily name-list, a song, or seeing a loved one in a creature or found object.
• You don’t need formal permission to create your own grief practices—if it gives comfort and connection, it’s right for you.

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Useful for Listeners Who…

• Are wrestling with big moves or feeling out of place.
• Are dealing with grief and seeking validation or new ways to “hold on.”
• Appreciate humor, story, and soulful family conversation.
• Want reassurance that meaning and memory can be made in personal and surprising ways.

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For more from Carla Fernandez, check out her book Renegade: A Guide to the Wild Ride of Life After and her community project The Dinner Party.

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Hosts: Mandy Patinkin, Kathryn Grody, Gideon Grody Patinkin
Guest: Carla Fernandez
Original Airdate: April 1, 2026

Transcript

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Okay, so just for. We want to do a little something called Catherine Explains a Joke. And the joke joke I have for you is pretty simple. Let's see how you do with it. Why do Canadians hate orgies?

[Kathryn Grody]

Why do Canadians hate orgies?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

It's a question.

[Kathryn Grody]

It's a question because they like to say thank you or something.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

The answer is because of all the thank you notes they have to write.

[Kathryn Grody]

All the thank you? Yeah. That's so dumb.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Okay.

[Kathryn Grody]

I find the whole idea of jokes a really poor comedic expression.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

You'd like no jokes to each other.

[Kathryn Grody]

I just don't get them usually.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Remove the jokes.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah, remove the jokes.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Dad, do you have a joke with the cow in the field?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Once there was a guy named Izzy, and there was a guy named Mendel. They were best friends. And then Izzy, God rest his soul, he goes. He leaves. He goes to the other side, and Mendel's working away in the tailor shop. He's putting a pair of buttons on a new pair of blue pants. All of a sudden, he hears Izzy's voice, says, mendel. Mendel. He goes, izzy. Izzy, is that you? He says, yeah. What's it like? What's it like? He says, unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable. Tell me, what's it like? Let me tell you something. You wake up and you fuck your brains out in the breakfast. And you say, shut up. Then comes a breakfast the size of it you wouldn't believe. After breakfast, they give you a lunch. Makes the breakfast look like a snack. After lunch, you go to sleep, you wake, take a little nap, you go. Makes the breakfast, lunch, look like nothing. And you wake up the next day and it starts all over again. My God.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

And you fuck your brains out some more.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh, my God. And you fuck your brains out some more. Then you go to sleep, and you wake up the next day and it starts all over again. And Izzy says, my God. So this is what heaven is like. Heaven? What the hell are you talking about? I'm a bull in Montana.

[Kathryn Grody]

Now, that I think is funny. Also because I love the way I haven't heard dad in years. I love the way he tells that. And that I think is very funny.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Wow.

[Kathryn Grody]

So it's a story. It's a narrative story. Okay, so that's.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

And why is it funny?

[Kathryn Grody]

Because of the difference between what you think the expectation is of heaven and the reality of being this animal, you know, in a pasture. And the way dad tells it. I think that's funny.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

That's great, Mom.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah. Thank you. Welcome to.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Don't listen to us. I'm Gideon Grody Patinkin. Son. Who are you guys? Do you have names in case somebody's come to us?

[Kathryn Grody]

Catherine Katherine Grody? Mandy Patinkin. I really love her name. I'm one of the. I'm Kathryn Grody.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Who are you? Dad.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Curly.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Our biggest challenge in the show, just saying our names. We're going to go on to our first listener question. It's a voice note from Debbie about moving. So mom and dad, if you can put your headphones on here, we will hear from Debbie.

[Kathryn Grody]

How long should you give it when you move to a brand new place? I moved about 2,700 miles from east coast to West Coast. I've been here just a few weeks. So I know it's too soon to feel like it's home yet, but I'm just wondering how long do you think you should give it and what things can help to feel at home?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Okay.

[Kathryn Grody]

Okay.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Go ahead, Kath.

[Kathryn Grody]

Well, Debbie, I think any move later in life is a brave thing to do. I once read about how people that move to a new place in mid or later life actually live longer because you're not comparing everything that used to be on a corner and that's gone. So I would certainly, I mean, you've only been there a few weeks and it must feel very strange. But I would start off with meeting your neighbors, you know, who are the closest people to you. What stores or coffee shops can you visit on a regular basis? Get to know the people that work there.

[Mandy Patinkin]

The fact that she asked the question is the answer. She should move back home immediately. We had friends who moved to a new house in Ireland. Their family was from Ireland. They, you know, were homesick or whatever. They missed their country countrymen, etc. Country women. And they were going to lift up from the east coast and go there. They had businesses lives here, etc. They went there. They were traveling around a little bit beforehand. They had everything ready. They had the dogs ready to be shipped, et cetera, the whole life that we're going to sell this house here. They're our dear friends and that we get a call, we're not going. We're staying. We feel we've made a cosmic error. We're staying. And it reminds me when we were looking in 2005 or six for an apartment to change because our rent stabilized, apartment was going to cost billions of dollars. And so we were just looking, you know, to downsize because the kids were gone. And we asked a realtor, we'd been looking in Brooklyn a lot. We'd lived in Manhattan and a realtor

[Kathryn Grody]

said, you have Manhattan centric lies. But I felt if we moved to Brooklyn, we'd just. I'd just be nostalgic starter families all the time.

[Mandy Patinkin]

But that comment, you have Manhattan centric lies was profound. Interesting comment.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

That, you know, our. And that's five boroughs of Manhattan. And he was saying, you're already. This is where your life is. This is your country, Manhattan, not Queens, not Brooklyn.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

There's a great joke about, like, kind of your generation of Jewish artists in New York. Never go below. Like, 96th street is sort of the time.

[Kathryn Grody]

Dad never went below 72nd Street.

[Mandy Patinkin]

When I had to tell him, you

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

got bagels above 96th Street.

[Kathryn Grody]

I had to tell him how to get to the Village, which was. I would say to Debbie. So let me just say, Debbie, 2,700 miles away, I have a feeling you might have. I don't know the reason. Did you go to be closer to relatives? Did you move to get away from relatives? Is a weather question. I would think of it as an adventure and not a sorrow. And I would do everything you could for at least one year is what I would advise.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

So I love just the two differences. Let me sum it up. Kathryn says, give it at least a year. Meet everyone you can. Get to know the landscape. Walk around, live as though you're gonna

[Kathryn Grody]

stay there forever and compare your old place to your new place.

[Mandy Patinkin]

See how it feel.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Mandy says if it doesn't feel right, go back home immediately. And there you. There you.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Hang on. Yeah, but it's also. She sounded like a 60 some year old. She sounded like a grown up. And you're not going to be around forever, Debbie. You're not going to know that. I do. You're not going to have time to adjust to a house in another land. Just go home.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

All right, here you go, Debbie.

[Kathryn Grody]

Okay.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

My advice is

[Mandy Patinkin]

I've done a lot of research.

[Kathryn Grody]

Somebody else. Yeah, that's really. That's. Ask your neighbor.

[Carla Fernandez]

Hey, everyone.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

It's Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin. We're two of the lead organizers of the no Kings protests. And we're also the co founders of Indivisible, the grassroots movement organizing against Trump's regime.

[Carla Fernandez]

We host what's the Plan? Your weekly guide to the state of our democracy and how we fight back. Tune in every Friday for new episodes.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Democracy is a participatory sport. The fascists win when we sit on the sidelines. What's the Plan? Is all about how we get into the game. So subscribe Recruit, discuss, organize, and win. What's the Plan is available on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back from the break. We get a lot of questions about grief and loss and mom and dad. You're constantly telling us you don't always feel qualified to handle the weight of some of these questions. So this week we thought we'd bring in some support, a friend, an actual expert who can help us all grapple with some of the toughest questions. Special guest, can you please come in? Come on in, special guest.

[Kathryn Grody]

Oh, wow.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Wow. It's Carla Fernandez.

[Kathryn Grody]

That's so amazing. I knew it had to be one of two people I happen to know, too.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Hello, Carla. Pretend I'll stand up and give you a hug.

[Carla Fernandez]

Let's pretend.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Oh, yeah, pretend to give a hug

[Mandy Patinkin]

or give a real hug.

[Carla Fernandez]

Just a pretend, real hug.

[Mandy Patinkin]

All right.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

I want to introduce our special guest today to our listeners. Today's guest is Carla Fernandez, writer, grief advocate and family friend. Carla is a co founder of the Dinner Party, a community where people who've lost someone come together over shared meals and honest conversation. She started that with the one and only Lennon Flowers. Her new book is called Renegade, A Guide to the Wild Ride of Life After. And we wanted to bring Carla here to help us today with this question that we got and filed under Weird, wild and wonderful Emails.

[Kathryn Grody]

So perfect for Carla.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Is Carla on camera or is she able to be seen? And Carla has a friend with her.

[Carla Fernandez]

I do.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Who's the friend?

[Carla Fernandez]

Who's the friend?

[Kathryn Grody]

Who's the friend?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Little Carla inside cooking.

[Carla Fernandez]

Oh, my God, the pregnant person. And Mandy did already offer for me to give birth in his swimming pool,

[Mandy Patinkin]

which we're gonna make it a live podcast.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Carla, could you please read Wendy's question for us to get us.

[Carla Fernandez]

Wendy. Wendy. Wendy. All right.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Is this Wendy from Peter Pan?

[Carla Fernandez]

No. Wouldn't that be amazing? Maybe coming out of the fictional world. Never Neverland. Okay, we're getting serious.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yes.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh, fuck. No. I'll do the Peter Pan music in the background.

[Carla Fernandez]

Correct. Captain Hook. Dear Mandy, Catherine, and Gideon, I would love to talk with you about the collision of inconsolable grief. Monarch butterflies, which I just saw outside as I was coming in, and Dolly Parton. My brother Matthias died on October 4, 2021. He was 33 years old. I would say young. He was the light of my life. Since then, I've been thinking a lot about the expectations people have for grief versus the actual experience of grief. We're really. Wendy's emphasis on really bad at it. I think we could be better. Monarch butterflies and Dolly Parton have helped me understand my grief, and I'm curious about the collisions of disconnected things that other grievers have cobbled together. I have so many questions. What do people do when grief events stack up one after the other without adequate time to heal in between? Do our atoms transform, linger, or disappear when we die? If matter can neither be created or destroyed, wouldn't the matter that makes up a human still be here somehow? What would happen if we started expressing our grief outside of the rather formal framework we currently have in our national culture? Is grief ever funny in a gallows humor way, in an absurdist way? You're all such a lovely balance of witty and wise. I thought you'd be good people to talk to about this. Wishing you all wonderful success in your podcast endeavor. Wendy. Grieving sister, butterfly guardian, and Dolly Parton acolyte.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Thank you, Wendy.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Thank you, Wendy. My first question. Where do monarch butterflies and Dolly Parton enter into her grief experience? I can't, other than watching butterflies die,

[Kathryn Grody]

because probably, my guess is, first of all, thank you for sharing that, Wendy. I think. I think our culture sucks at allowing people to be however they feel, you know? And Carla's book, by the way, which I truly love because I think it shares such creative ways of dealing with loss so that it's not something that happens to you and then it's over. Yeah, I'm gonna let Carla speak to this, but I would assume, man, monarch butterflies are beauty, and they don't live forever, and they come and they go. And Dolly's songs probably have spoken to

[Mandy Patinkin]

her, and she's got some songs about grief, particularly.

[Carla Fernandez]

Something tells me she's written some songs about heartbreak.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah, heartbreak. And also, I would just say I deeply believe we transform. And I'm continually looking for the matter that has transformed from who I've lost. And I'm so far it's in my mind. But I do believe that we do transform, and I'm going to pass it on to Carla, who has more expertise at this.

[Carla Fernandez]

Well, what I love about Wendy's question to me is it kind of shows the moment in culture that we're in that's shifting. 100 years ago, Freud wrote a very big, important paper called Morning and Melancholia, where he basically explained that if someone was continuing bonds with somebody that was dead, if somebody was seeing butterflies and feeling connected to their brother or hearing a Dolly Parton song on the radio and feeling moved to tears, that there was something wrong with them.

[Kathryn Grody]

Right.

[Carla Fernandez]

He turned it into A pathology to continue grieving, which was very distinct from human culture up until that point. And we're now at a point where science is disproving, actually, the magic is not about breaking bonds and cutting the person off and pretending like you didn't know them, but it's about finding these magical small ways to continue their presence in your life. And yet the muscle memory of the culture we live in is still in the kind of Freudian breaking bonds that

[Kathryn Grody]

it's something wrong with you.

[Carla Fernandez]

So the fact that Wendy here is like, is it okay that I have this kind of bizarre combination of things that reminds me of my brother? The answer is like, hell, yes. That's the whole point of the game, is how do we find ways to continue our connection? And what I love about this is it's not like the standard aesthetic that you might think about when you think about a grief connection or something that can, you know, an object related to your grief. This isn't like a crocus poking through the snow. There's obviously a story here about her and Matthias and country music and monarch butterflies that I would love to hear more about.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah, I would, too.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

And it's like, whatever those connections are, like, if it's a peanut butter sandwich and, like, clean windows, that's like, you know, it's like, what. What does it for you? What makes sense in your idiosyncratic brain and experience? I was one of the things I love most in her email is this question, is grief ever funny in a gallows humor way, in an absurdist way? That was something. I really enjoyed reading your book. This kind of notion that we have of grief of somebody, like on the beach with their head in their hands. And then there's this expansive universe of ways people deal with it. Can you speak at all to the conversation of it being funny or absurdist or gallows? I think we can relate to that.

[Carla Fernandez]

I have nearly pissed my pants laughing so many times, talking to people about dead people, their experience of grief. And the Dinner Party, the organization that Lennon and I co founded, we're bringing people together to not just recount the diagnosis or the accident or the death, but all of the ways we're stumbling and fumbling our way through life after. And more often than not, there is hysterical mishaps and confusing moments and awkward conversations that, like, the only appropriate response is to laugh. And I think when you're opening up to the tenderness, the intensity, the sadness, like the. The low notes on the piano keys related to grief, it also opens up the other end of the emotional spectrum, too. And I feel like sadness and praise are like two sides of the same coin. That the more we can lean into grief and our connection to someone, the more we can feel into, like, what is the wild, hysterical reality of being

[Kathryn Grody]

a human being A human. I mean, my. My experience in terms of funny, are

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

we thinking of the same one?

[Kathryn Grody]

I bet I had a first love. He was somebody that I was. You never met him.

[Carla Fernandez]

Not him.

[Kathryn Grody]

Not him. He was my actual, real, permanent love. This was somebody I had delusions about being that.

[Carla Fernandez]

But those are fun eras.

[Kathryn Grody]

They're very fun. I was very young and I loved that my parents hated him. So I felt very grown up because it was like I brought this guy, you know, this sort of Brooklyn guy to Sherman Oaks. Long story short, he became ill. He had Huntington's disease. I was his guardian after he made me insane. And he was cremated and he became

[Mandy Patinkin]

part of our family.

[Kathryn Grody]

He became part of our family.

[Mandy Patinkin]

He's at all our family dinners.

[Kathryn Grody]

And Mandy was great with him because at one point he was, at this point, Cardinal. Cardinal Cook Home for Huntington's People, and very diminished. But Mandy said, what is your. Who's your favorite author? And I thought, oh, God, don't ask him that. It's so painful. And Jeffrey went, Schopenhauer. Schopenhauer. Because that's what they are.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Huntington's is a condition where you lose control.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You have.

[Kathryn Grody]

It's an inherited, horrible genetic illness. But I took the box of Jeffrey to the Hudson river, and my brother Michael was with me. And he wasn't yet a monk, but we both took Jeffrey. And it was a still day. It was not a breeze, it was blue. We opened this box and I said, jeffrey, become part of the city that you love. And at the moment I went like this with his ashes, a frigging gale sized wind out of nowhere came and covered me from head to. To with Jeffrey. And Mike said, that's him not ever letting you go.

[Carla Fernandez]

One last embrace.

[Kathryn Grody]

One last embrace. Or making me crazy. So that was pretty funny.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

That story was Grandma at Point Lobos.

[Carla Fernandez]

Maybe not.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Yeah. Do you always get covered in your people's ashes?

[Kathryn Grody]

No, honey, that was a very different situation. Oh, yeah.

[Carla Fernandez]

What I love about that story is finding a moment to honor his life.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Carla Fernandez]

To take, you know, to think about what is a uniquely Jeffrey way to release him back into the world. That it was an ode to New York City. That's the way I think tending to grief is actually a creative process. It requires you to kind of tap into what? Someone's spirit and legacy is different from anybody else.

[Kathryn Grody]

Just very specific to them. Even though a lot of people can identify with that 100%. Yeah.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

What is it? What comes to mind for you, dad?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Well, I love all those ideas. I live them, I do them. Every time I see a house fly, sometimes I kill it, and sometimes I put it on my finger. Because every time we see a house fly, I decided that's my dad. The ones I kill are not my dad.

[Carla Fernandez]

How do you tell the difference?

[Mandy Patinkin]

I can tell because I know my dad's voice. I know how he looks. I know how I listened for the cough, the sound of the coughy eyes. I know his eyes and I. Why did you. I'll tell you why I did it. Because, mom, every time we saw a blue jay, we have a lot of blue jays. Here she go. That's my father. Because her father, Irving, he Blue Jays

[Kathryn Grody]

ate out of his hands.

[Carla Fernandez]

Wow.

[Kathryn Grody]

I mean, wow. Blue Jays. Yeah. He would do this and they would come and they wouldn't do it for anybody else.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

So dad wanted that experience with his dad?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yes. I thought it. Blue Jays out of her father's hand. My father's going to be in this game, too. And I pick the house fly, so. And here's something about the house fly. I do concerts, and in a concert, there's a spotlight on me. Sometimes the stage lights are a little lower and the spotlight's on me. And when. When you're watching someone on stage and a fly gets in the light, everybody in the audience can see it. It totally takes focus. And I. This has happened to me two or three, three times. And always when I'm singing a song like I'll be seeing you, you know, or something, and the housefly hits the light, and in a spotlight, it's major, and I just put my finger out, and every time it lands right on my finger and the audience becomes absolutely still as can be. I finish the entire song to the house fly, my dad, and then I go like this with my hand and let him go. And then the place, you know, says, thanks. And it's happened more than once.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

So it's happened more than once?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Yes, it's happened at least three times.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Wait, can I ask you a question? Did that happen once and it was so wild that it felt like three times?

[Mandy Patinkin]

No, it's happened. Absolutely.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

And you're not rubbing your fingers with fly pheromone?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Nope. Nope. I don't even know what it is.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Carla, let me ask you a question. You lost your father A while ago. What winged animal is he?

[Carla Fernandez]

Listen, I don't want to steal Wendy's thunder, but there's a monarch story.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Oh, wow.

[Carla Fernandez]

My dad, he lived in this town called Pacific Grove, California, which is one of the overwintering spots for the monarchs migrating to Mexico. And you can walk from his home to this little park where, when you look up at certain times of year, there's thousands and thousands of monarchs clustered in the branches. And he's buried, like, 100 yards from there. So it's sort of this, like, one, two punch of visiting his grave and then going through the monarch sanctuary. And he was obsessed with them in the way that you talk about quantum physics.

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah.

[Carla Fernandez]

And for him, the thing that transfixed him was the migration patterns that the monarchs that leave this tiny little town in California go on this long journey, and the monarchs that return to that exact same grove are something like three or four generations later.

[Kathryn Grody]

Wow.

[Carla Fernandez]

And yet there's this, like, magnetic pole, the sort of path that they know how to follow despite it being like their great, great great grandparents.

[Kathryn Grody]

It's the ancestors.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Is that the epigenetic?

[Kathryn Grody]

Epigenetic.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

That's a different.

[Carla Fernandez]

They think it's like, you know, there's some ideas or some sort of magnet, they're following some magnetic currents, et cetera, et cetera.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I actually know the reason why that happens.

[Carla Fernandez]

Please.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I've been sworn to secrecy.

[Kathryn Grody]

I mean, isn't that like ancestors? I mean, isn't that what. You know, ancestors to friends of mine of Xhosa tribe in South Africa. Their ancestors are as real as us sitting around the table. They think that we think that people that are physically dead are not here is really a depraved idea.

[Carla Fernandez]

And that's why the Freudian moment, the Freudian slip, if you will, was kind of this severing from what is like, deep, innate human intelligence.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And. Read that 40 and say that Freudian slip again.

[Carla Fernandez]

The appropriate thing to do when someone dies is to break bonds.

[Mandy Patinkin]

That's what Freud suggested.

[Carla Fernandez]

That's what he suggested. And what ended up happening, tragically, is that his daughter died a few years later. His favorite daughter. Could you imagine saying that one of your kids is your favorite? He always wrote about her as his favorite.

[Kathryn Grody]

One of his many therapists. Yeah, yeah.

[Carla Fernandez]

She died of the Spanish flu. He wrote in a letter to friend. And I'm paraphrasing and modernizing. Basically, he was like, oh, whoopsie daisies, actually, I miss her. Nothing's ever gonna fill this void. There's an appropriateness to want to maintain a connection with her. And yet through the kind of academic pedagogy that he'd already released, like the domino had already fallen and the. The problem had already started and psychological best practice had already been established as break the bond. I don't know. So it makes me think that what we're doing here and telling these stories, and they might seem sort of silly or trite, the monarch or the bluebird or the housefly, but within each of those moments of connection is like deep history, ancestry, love. And that's the work we need to do in grieving, is figure out how do we continue that bond. And it doesn't matter what other people think about it. It's about how it makes us feel.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I know I've said it to Kathryn Gideon, so forgive the repeat, but I have my. I guess I would call it my grief vitamin that I take every day, sometimes more than once a day. And I do a couple of things. First of all, I have to preface it by saying my belief in the higher power is my belief in science and Einstein's theory of relativity. That energy never dies. Therefore, in my belief system, all matter is energy, and all of that matter never dies. So whether it's us or anything, a tree or flower, it transforms. It's not familiar. But that matter, that energy, those protons and neurons, move out into the universe, and you can breathe them in if you choose to, or see them if you choose to, or imagine them near you if you choose to. Meaning my father and Moses or Buddha or Allah or anyone that you want to visit. Jesus.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

And you'd probably choose your dad out of those.

[Mandy Patinkin]

I don't know. I've been with my dad. I'd actually like to meet Jesus and Buddha and Allah first, because I've been with dad and get. Get some insight from them. But. But then. Then it couples with my favorite line from literature, written by Oscar Hammerstein for a libretto of a musical of all things, called Carousel. And the line is, as long as there's one person on Earth who remembers you, it isn't over. And that led me to creating a litany of. In my morning ritual, prayers, meditation, I say the name out loud of every person that was a part of my existence that I was close to, or maybe not even that close to, but that I had connection with. And I go through this whole list.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

How long does that take?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Well, I think it takes about five minutes to say all the names. Probably a little less, maybe close to 4, but I'll just do just a little bit. Daddy Joe Irv Hattie Allen, Runner Doc, Uncle Cale, Bob, Mark, Uncle Errol Dre, Jeffrey Siegel, Marsha Ui, Uncle Arch, Dana Kristoff, Bella, Smitty, Leo, Jill Siegel, Nando, Bill Modell, Den Savitsky, Sheldon Landee, Maris, Skyler, On Silver, Sam, Tez Daito. And it goes on and on. Wow.

[Carla Fernandez]

And so are you saying it out loud?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Out loud? I do it out loud, and it's very comforting to me. I do it always before I go on stage or in front of a camera or in front of a podcast. I do it morning in my morning prayers, where I come here to do these things so that I'm not alone, so they're with me, but I do it for a tremendously selfish reason down the road. And that reason is so when my time comes to leave this life that I'm familiar with, and I hope I'm conscious and aware of it, I believe they will be there.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

All those people.

[Mandy Patinkin]

All those people. I believe they're in big groups. That's the only time I'm willing to go to a rock concert. It's the only rock concert I will attend.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Minutes of people you want all them to be.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And when I look out into an audience during a concert and I see the darkness, because when the light's in your eyes, you sometimes see darkness. I see them all there. I see. I see all the people from, you know, Holocausts across, you know, the planet, you know, from, you know, you know, Jews don't like you to use the word Holocaust, but, you know, you know, the Holocaust of the Jews, the genocide of American Indians, Bosnians, all the people that have suffered. And the list goes on and on, unfortunately, and continues to grow. And I fear that the Palestinians are now part of that list. And I see them and I sing to them and I welcome them, and I always ask, and I always sing the Misha Beirach prayer, which is a Jewish prayer for healing. Because I've heard that in certain cultures of religion that the soul goes into limbo, or what's the word? Purgatory, until it's ready, and then it goes here, it goes there. And if they need any healing, any of them, I wish them the Misha Bayrak prayer. I wish them to heal.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

You also sing that to your dog when you feed her.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And I sing it to God, who I refer to as Hashem, because I can't imagine that my God, my Hashem isn't also wounded and dying inside, watching his creation fail and hurt and kill each other.

[Carla Fernandez]

What do you get out of that? Like I love this ritual so much. It's so simple. It's so powerful. You're continuing the connection. You have your own private way of doing this, but you can also talk to folks about it. Why would you advocate that someone has this sort of grief ritual that they turn to, as opposed to trying to forget or block out the memory of those people? What do you get from that?

[Mandy Patinkin]

Oh, because I get comfort. Great comfort. I also took six years till I had a dream where my dad was there. I refuse to believe that what my mind has in a dream state is any different from the reality of the 34 of us sitting here talking to each other. That's reality to my brain. So is my dream.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Do you hear that, Ma? Sometimes it takes six years to get your people to visit you.

[Mandy Patinkin]

It took six years, and then I had the most extraordinary dream. And so I want people. I want people to look forward to those visits. Like when you're walking down the road looking at your baby for the first time and you start to bawl and weep because you missed that loved one who's not holding them. Those tears are that loved one's tears coming out of your eyes. They are with you. You are remembering they're there. And those children, babies, dogs, animals, feel them. I believe that that's not just my fun. It's my way of getting through this game called life.

[Carla Fernandez]

And what do you say to the person who has yet to have the dream six years later, and maybe other people have had dreams of their person?

[Mandy Patinkin]

You're kind of like, well, I'd say, Mom's going, yeah.

[Carla Fernandez]

Do you want to talk about that at all?

[Kathryn Grody]

No.

[Mandy Patinkin]

What would I say? Yeah, I'd say, you know, stay healthy, eat right, keep walking, do your exercise. Because I believe it will come. And if it doesn't come in this life as you know it, I don't know what happens after this life. Maybe this is it, maybe it's not. But don't be so sure that it doesn't come, because I'll tell you when I think it comes. If it really wants to keep you waiting, it comes just as you're leaving, and it comes to take you somewhere. And I've been in the room with my father and my Aunt Ida when that room was electric, and it bonded us forever. And I believe to this day my Grandpa Max, my father's father, showed up in that room, and it made my Aunt ida and i1 being for the rest of our lives. When my dad died at 52, I felt it. I've asked other People about this kind of thing. It's spooky. People think you're crazy. I love it. If people think I'm crazy, I don't give a shit. I believe it.

[Kathryn Grody]

Well, you know, it's funny. I'm always looking for signs because, you know, my brother left us a hero. February. But I was walking down the hall in the apartment. He made me this gorgeous collage for, like, my birthday in 1986. It's hung on the wall.

[Mandy Patinkin]

It's right behind you.

[Kathryn Grody]

No, no, honey, not that one. It's one in the city, and I love it. And it's up there and just. It's been there for 20 years, just hanging there. And I walked by it the other day, and I noticed there was a little bit of writing like, that he'd cut out, you know, And I couldn't see it, and I couldn't see it, and I wanted to. And I took it down, and it was this incredible quote that I have it memorized, but it spoke to this moment that I'm in because I'm working on a piece about the age I am. And here's this quote that he put on this collage in 1986. And it says something like, youth, ferocious, lusty, glorious, wonderful. Do you know that old age can also be lusty, ferocious, beautiful? That the darkness and the stars can also be as extraordinary as the sun? And it just.

[Mandy Patinkin]

And you never saw that.

[Kathryn Grody]

I never saw it before. I never remember even reading it. It was like, 1986. And, you know, Isaac was, you know, four, and you weren't here yet. Yeah, you were. And it just felt to me like, okay, okay, that's a sign. You know, I just couldn't believe that as I'm struggling with this piece about how to be fully alive and feel ferociously alive in this age than I did when I was younger. And there, my brother put that in 1986.

[Carla Fernandez]

I love the part of these conversations that's about just, like, opening these big, curious topics that are at the heart of the big mystery that is life. And, like, we don't know. Was the moment, seeing the collage, your brother kind of beaming in and bringing your eye to this frame? Or was it just like you were looking for a clue that had been there all along and, like, it doesn't actually matter?

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Or was it Dad's dad as a housefly who landed on the corner of that frame at that moment, drawing Mom's eyes there?

[Kathryn Grody]

Yeah. And, Wendy, I thank you. I thank you for sharing your story with us and inspiring this kind of conversation. And I'll think of you when I see monarch butterflies.

[Carla Fernandez]

Mandy, maybe you can add Matthias to your list of folks. There's room for one more.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Oh, Cam, I'd like an honorable, alive person mention.

[Kathryn Grody]

No, that would not be good. That would make me very super.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Okay, never mind. I don't need to be there. We spend enough time together. Carla, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for coming by. You can check out Carla's incredible book, Renegade Grief. And lastly, folks, can also check out the Dinner Party. Amazing organization for people who have lost someone trying to find community 40 and under. And amazing thing to plug into if you're looking for that in your life. Thanks so much for coming by.

[Carla Fernandez]

Thanks, guys.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Next time bring some cookies or something, okay? We should bring.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

We should have the cookies.

[Mandy Patinkin]

The cookies.

[Kathryn Grody]

You look so beautiful.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You do.

[Carla Fernandez]

Come on.

[Mandy Patinkin]

Bye. Thanks, Carla. All right. That was wonderful. That was wonderful.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

We love having our. Our people stop on by here. Thanks everybody for tuning in. We want to hear from you. More questions, stories, advice for us. Advice you've had.

[Kathryn Grody]

We need advice.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Strange tales from beyond. You can send an email to askmandyandkatherinemail.com or check out our socials for an easy way to send us a voice note. And just remember, don't Listen to us.

[Kathryn Grody]

Don't, Don't, Don't.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

Don't Listen to Us is a Lemonada Media original hosted by Mandy Patinkin, Kathryn Grody and Gideon Grody Patinki. Created by Katrina Onstad, Debbie Pacheco and Gideon Grody Padinkin. Executive producers are Kathryn Grody, Gideon Grody Padinkin, Mandy Padinkin, Katrina Onstadt, Debbie Pacheco, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Whittles Wax. Our engineer is Ryan Derringer of Welterweight sound. Video and audio production by Mark Whiteway of Bellows Media.

[Mandy Patinkin]

You can watch on CNN.com watch or the CNN app.

[Gideon Grody Patinkin]

If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Media Premium yet, now's the perfect time. You can hear Don't Listen to Us completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like behind the scenes conversations, questions so weird they didn't make it on air, Becky the dog shenanigans and more. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple podcasts. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other apps, app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out.