"PICTURES OF HEAVEN" – Don't Miss This Study

Podcast Hosts: Dave Butler & Grace Freeman
Episode Date: November 3, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Dave Butler and Grace Freeman conclude their journey through the Doctrine and Covenants, focusing on sections 129–132—some of scripture's most mysterious and "heavenly" passages. They reflect on how these verses, often confusing or overwhelming at first, can become deeply relevant and faith-affirming by focusing on what we do know about God, heavenly relationships, and the journey of becoming. The conversation balances doctrinal insights, practical application, personal stories, and heartfelt encouragement, making complex topics accessible and meaningful.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Transitioning From Doctrine and Covenants to Old Testament

• Excitement for New Beginnings: Both express affection for the Old Testament and plan to help listeners "fall in love" with it next year.
  • "Some scripture you have to gradually fall in love with. This is love at first sight." (Dave, 00:55)
• Resources & Tools: Mention study journals, calendars, "tip-ins," and a forthcoming free download for better scripture study (01:16–02:44).

2. Interpreting Complex Revelations (Sections 129–130)

• Dealing with the Unknown: Dave relates President Oaks’ statement from a recent press conference:
  • "We don't have all the answers to the world's problems. We don't know everything... But here, there are some things we do know." (Dave, paraphrasing President Oaks, 04:31)
• The Believer's Experience:
  • Dave describes the "spiritual jet lag" Christians live in, balancing what we sense spiritually with what we cannot see or fully understand (07:16).
  • "We all come from a place that we can't remember, following a God we cannot see, believing in a heaven that we don't really understand for an amount of time that we don't know." (Dave, 07:24)
• Scripture Study Tip:
  • Grace emphasizes relevance and application over understanding every detail:
    • "The coolest thing to me about God is that he will still use words written in the context of someone else's life to benefit me." (Grace, 11:26)
  • Even when context isn’t ours, God speaks individually through revelation (13:36).

3. Heaven: Sociality, Relationships, and Character (Section 130)

• Heaven as Relationship:

  • The "same sociality" that exists here will exist there, "only coupled with eternal glory" (17:28–19:53).
  • Illustrated by Story: Dave shares a touching story of Sunday night mission prep gatherings at his home—"as much of heaven as I can even imagine right now in my life" (19:53).
  • "Heaven is relationship. It's sociality, it's people around the campfire." (Dave, 22:29)

• Immediate Application:

  • Grace: "It makes me want to cherish people more... far less scrolling and far more conversation. And I want to discover what it looks like to experience heaven on earth, and that is what relationship [means]." (22:52–23:34)
  • Discussion points for families: Where have you experienced "hints of heaven" in your relationships?

4. What Do We Take With Us to Heaven?

• Beyond Trivia and 'Book Knowledge': (Section 130:18–21)

  • Verses suggest the knowledge and intelligence gained "by diligence and obedience" are what persist after death (24:54–28:56).
    • "Diligence is a grit word... I think he's talking about experience. He's talking about a level of learning that comes through what you're experiencing in life... I think this knowledge is character." (Grace, 27:35)
  • Dave contrasts "quick gets" of factual knowledge with the slow process of developing a "heart like God" through experience (30:50).

• Obedience as a Pattern for Blessings:

  • "Let me show you the patterns and how to do it. ...There are patterns of living upon which all blessings are predicated." (Dave, 35:02)
  • Memory and experience are guides to see divine patterns and recognize blessings from living God's way (35:23–36:27).

5. Wrestling with Difficult Doctrine (Sections 131–132)

• Introducing Section 132:

  • Acknowledgement: Plural marriage is a tough, sometimes troubling topic for many (39:44).
  • Tips for Approaching Hard Topics:
    • "Remember the heart of God. Remember what he is like. Read some scripture in light of all scripture. ...Look who Jesus was in the New Testament as you read section 132." (Dave, 42:32)

• Exaltation and God's Intent:

  • Focus on the beginning of Section 132, where God says, “I’m trying to exalt you"—to lift us to a higher state (43:12).
  • "To exalt means to take someone from one station to a higher station. And that is what God wants to do with all of us." (Dave, 44:59)
  • God as a “promise keeper”:
    • "No matter any oath, vow, performance, connection, contract, bond, obligation that we enter into in faithfulness, he will keep." (Dave, 46:12)

6. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "We all come from a place that we can't remember, following a God we cannot see, believing in a heaven that we don't really understand for an amount of time that we don't know." – Dave, 07:24

• "The coolest thing to me about God is that he will still use words written in the context of someone else's life to benefit me." – Grace, 11:26

• "Heaven is relationship. It's sociality, it's people around the campfire." – Dave, 22:29

• "If diligence and obedience could turn me into the type of love that my grandma and grandpa Freeman know how to give... I would take it in a heartbeat." – Grace, 32:42

• "There are some things I do not understand, and there are some things I do know. ...God says, I will use all of those things...to change the heart, to change the soul, to prepare you and expand you." – Dave, 48:58

• "When he says 'by My word,' this is true. Remember who's speaking." – Grace, 46:33

Segment Timestamps

• 00:52–02:44: Reflecting on finishing Doctrine & Covenants; excitement for Old Testament study & new resources
• 03:21–05:41: The new First Presidency press conference and President Oaks’ statements on what the Church does and does not know
• 06:28–08:07: Wrestling with the mysteries of Section 129; the “spiritual jet lag” of believers
• 10:05–13:36: Grace on seeking relevance in scripture and finding personal application
• 16:25–22:18: The kitchen-table origins of Section 130 and sociality in heaven
• 19:53–24:28: Story: Sunday night mission prep as a glimpse of heaven; cherishing relationships
• 24:54–33:49: Knowledge, intelligence, and the importance of character over factual learning
• 35:02–36:27: Patterns of living, blessings, and changing perspectives on obedience
• 39:44–42:32: Difficulties with plural marriage, context for Section 132, reading tough doctrine
• 43:12–46:12: Exaltation, covenants, and God as a promise keeper
• 46:33–47:13: Trusting God’s word and His intent to bless
• 48:58–49:35: Concluding thoughts on trust, worship, and hope

Practical Takeaways

• Scripture can speak to your context even when it is written for another’s.
• Heaven is both here and ahead: found in relationships, deep emotions, and experiences.
• The knowledge that persists after death is rooted in character, developed through patience, diligence, and obedience.
• Obedience is less about strict rule-following and more about embracing divine patterns that lead to blessings now and eternally.
• Difficult doctrine warrants context, patience, and trust in God’s goodness—and should be read in light of all scripture.
• God’s promises are dependable and His intent is always to exalt and bless us.

Final Thought

"There will be hard things—things you do not understand—but God says: I will use all of those things to change the heart...to prepare you to receive all the gifts I intend to pour out on you." (Dave, 48:58)

For more resources, follow @dontmissthisstudy, @thisweeksgrace, and @mrdavebutler on Instagram or visit dontmissthisstudy.com.