Clare and Carl

Summary

Podcast Summary: DOUBT: The Case of Lucy Letby – "Clare and Carl" (June 16, 2026)

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Overview

In this bonus episode of "DOUBT: The Case of Lucy Letby," hosted by Amanda Knox, the focus centers on a first-hand account from Claire and Carl, a couple whose baby was treated by Lucy Letby, the nurse convicted of murdering seven infants and attempting to murder seven more at the Countess of Chester Hospital. Amanda, herself a former subject of international media scrutiny and wrongful accusation, approaches their story with empathy and a persistent drive to uncover truth and nuance, challenging the mainstream narrative around Letby’s conviction. The episode is a poignant exploration of trauma, survivor's guilt, institutional failures, and the pursuit of answers amidst public outrage and uncertain justice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Amanda Knox's Mission and Context

• Amanda travels to London and Chester, motivated to explore the Letby case not only due to media parallels with her own unjust treatment but out of a commitment to “pay it forward” for truth and accountability.
• She highlights the enduring role of public opinion:
  • “In the last 18 years, the UK media has consistently vilified me. My definitive acquittal did not change that. But I wanted to take the opportunity to talk to more people about the Lucy Letby case.” (03:02, Amanda Knox)
• The moral weight of speaking out is addressed:
  • “Now I’m putting myself there because I can. I can handle it. And I know that it’s for a good reason.” (04:21, Amanda Knox)

Claire and Carl’s Birth and Neonatal Experience

• Claire describes a traumatic emergency C-section, rapid postnatal interventions, and immediate post-birth respiratory distress in their daughter ("Jessica") while at the Countess of Chester Hospital in May 2016—at the height of Letby’s alleged crimes.
• The hospital environment is portrayed as rundown and chaotic:
  • “It was really old, really hot, like ridiculously hot... lots of staff complaining and they're not quiet about it... everything was a series of compromises...” (15:24–15:49, Claire and Carl)
• A critical equipment failure is revealed, with malfunctioning scales potentially misinforming critical care decisions:
  • “So many babies have got the wrong weight right now...That’s really important...I just couldn’t believe it, really. I thought, in a neonatal unit, does it not work?” (19:18–19:51, Claire)

Interaction with Lucy Letby

• Both parents recall Letby’s professionalism and composure:
  • “Lucy Letby being very serious, very quiet, just quietly doing what she needed to do.” (14:02, Carl)
  • Letby is said to have calmly explained Jessica’s symptoms and care (nostril flare, respiratory support).
• Letby later facilitates their daughter’s discharge from the NICU:
  • “Lucy Letby was the one who brought Jessica up to our room...She just, you know, ‘here's your baby’. My experience is very different than my wife’s… But for me, it was like one of the best times of my life.” (20:33, Carl)

Aftermath: Doubt, Police Inquiries, and Institutional Responses

• After Letby’s arrest makes headlines (2018), Claire and Carl are wracked with anxiety—especially about unexplained “pale moments” (sudden drops in their baby’s stats).
  • “We wanted to know for sure if any of the things that had happened to her...had been induced by this person that was being accused of murder...” (23:11, Carl)
  • Police (Operation Hummingbird) tell them Jessica is not among the investigated cases, but Claire’s doubts persist.
• Second investigation follows Letby’s further arrest, and the couple is offered a meeting with hospital leadership.
• Hospital administrators are described as defensive and dismissive:
  • “It very much was a ‘please don’t sue us’ meeting...It was a very dismissive attitude...” (29:35, Carl)
  • The couple is shocked to discover they were not told Jessica was “the sickest baby in the unit for 24 hours” and not informed of key interventions, such as intubation. (29:59–30:54, Claire and Amanda)

Letby’s Role: Lead Nurse and Interventions

• The couple learns Lucy Letby was Jessica’s lead nurse and personally twice intervened to save her life:
  • “You're telling me that the person in the media, Lucy Letby, was Jessica's lead nurse and twice she had to call for help because she was going to die unless someone came to help?” (31:42, Claire)
  • “...the so-called serial killer had saved our child's life twice like an angel, without our knowledge, never asking or telling us that she'd done it....it always comes back to the same question. It just doesn’t make logical sense.” (32:20, Carl)
• Claire’s persistent attempts to raise concerns (e.g., the faulty scales, possible overfeeding) with authorities are brushed aside.

Psychological Toll and Survivor’s Guilt

• Claire deals with deep guilt, ongoing anxiety, and an inability to move on:
  • “I felt guilty for not being there for Jessica...I felt very guilty that, in a way, she survived and the others died. So that stayed with me for a very long time. ...It still bothers me now. I still get upset about it now. That shouldn’t happen.” (34:47–35:52, Claire)
• Therapists and others do not want to discuss the topic, further compounding her isolation:
  • “I try to talk to counsellors about it. They don’t seem interested in it. ...Probably too frightened to, I don’t know.” (35:52–36:15, Claire)

Life Inside a Maze of Doubt

• The couple describes feeling trapped between disbelief in the system’s integrity and uncertainty about the truth:
  • “I've got this idea that this potential serial killer has saved my child. I'd say over 90% sure that they've blamed bad management and bad procedures and badly run units on one individual. ...It feels like the administration and everybody else involved, and the media, just decided: that's it, she's guilty. And we're just gonna make that fit however we can.” (37:25–40:17, Carl)
• They struggle with the idea of survivor’s guilt and the ethical duty to speak up:
  • “It’s like a survivor's guilt, like mine was spared but at a cost of losing theirs....I feel really, really sorry for them and I always will. Always.” (41:53, Claire)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Amanda’s motivation:

  • “To pay it forward and try to help get the truth out about someone else’s life and these tragic cases.” (04:41, Amanda Knox)

• On hospital conditions:

  • “It just didn’t seem very professional...everything was a series of compromises that these people had to make every day...” (15:24–15:49, Carl)

• On Lucy Letby’s care:

  • “She went all through the correct procedure and called the right people, did the right thing twice over two days. ...She didn’t even tell us she was her lead nurse. She just got on and did her job to the best of her ability. And now I have my daughter because of that. ...It doesn’t make sense.” (32:20, Carl)

• On being trapped in doubt:

  • “We don't even know if Lucy actually did save our child. ...We're left in a limbo of, who do you believe? Because the hospital can't be trusted, the police can't be trusted. Nobody seems to be interested in finding out what really happened anyway, apart from independent people like yourself.” (39:29, Carl)

• On survivor’s guilt:

  • “She survived, and the others died. That stayed with me for a very long time. ...It still bothers me now.” (34:47, Claire)

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Key Timestamps (MM:SS)

• 02:42 — Amanda sets the context for her UK trip and intent to explore the Letby case firsthand.
• 04:41 — Amanda discusses her motivation for pushing into contentious territory.
• 11:03–14:43 — Claire and Carl recount Jessica’s birth and immediate postnatal complications, and their introduction to Letby.
• 15:24–19:51 — The couple describes systemic problems at the hospital, including equipment failures and staff shortages.
• 20:33 — Letby is the nurse who returns baby Jessica to her parents after NICU.
• 22:11–23:51 — News of Letby’s arrest, realization of possible connection to their case, and contacting the police.
• 29:35–32:20 — Hospital meeting revelations: Letby was Jessica's lead nurse and directly intervened to save her life twice.
• 34:47 — Claire shares the emotional aftermath: guilt, anxiety, and nightmares.
• 36:38–37:25 — The couple discusses their attempts to raise institutional failures and skepticism of the investigation’s integrity.
• 39:29–40:17 — Carl describes being “in limbo” regarding the truth about Letby, the hospital, and Jessica.
• 41:53 — Claire talks about survivor’s guilt and empathy for other families.

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Conclusion & Next Episode Tease

Amanda Knox closes by emphasizing the lingering uncertainty and emotional consequences for Claire and Carl, even as their child survived. Their testimonial exposes troubling ambiguities in the Letby case and institutional responses. Next week’s episode will feature Mark McDonald and David Davis, providing further perspectives on the case.

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Transcript

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[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

Okay, we're on the plane. Oh, God. We're on the plane.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

Aisle 33. Good to be here.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

Good to be here. In late April, my husband and I traveled to London.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

Are you feeling nervous about going to the UK for the first time?

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

It's starting to hit me. Yeah, It's starting to hit me. I hope that it's not like the first time I went back to Italy. I had never been to the UK before, and frankly, I was really nervous. In the last 18 years, the UK made media has consistently vilified me. My definitive acquittal did not change that. But I wanted to take the opportunity to talk to more people about the Lucy Letby case. In the days that followed, I interviewed people in London and in Chester connected to the case, the Countess of Chester Hospital and the nhs, meeting them on the ground and in person for the first time. I can't say that I'm super thrilled about going on Good Morning Britain. Keeping the Lucy Letby case in the public consciousness was also a priority.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

On the pre call you did with Good Morning Britain, the producer was like, so why are you sticking your head above the parapet here? It's just like, essentially, I don't think she's wrong. It's like you are going out there into a position that, you know people are gonna want to snipe at you.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

Right. Well, I mean, I feel like that's exactly the position I need to be in in this situation. That's what people were doing for me back in the day. And now I'm putting myself there because I can. I can handle it. And I know that it's for a good reason.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

What is that reason?

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

To pay it forward and try to help get the truth out about someone else's life and these tragic cases. Wanting to get the truth out meant I did put my anxiety aside and appear on Good Morning Britain. There are families who have lost children

[Claire (Mother)]

who believe and in fact, factually have conviction because Lucy Letby has a conviction for the murder, an attempted murder of those babies.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

Questions about the grieving families, understandably, did come up.

[Claire (Mother)]

So when you investigate whether that conviction is unsafe, how do you handle those sensitivities?

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

For me, I approach this as a mother. And what would I want as a mother? I want to know. I want to know the how, I want to know the why. And I want to make sure that the people who are accountable for what happened to my children are held accountable. And so as I approach this story, I'm very, very sensitive about protecting the privacy and the dignity of the families and the victims while pursuing a course of investigation that is very, very focused on the facts. It's about what do we know about this hospital, what do we know about these cases, and what can we say we know for sure as opposed to what is speculation. I also spoke to several UK podcasts about the Letby case, including Andrew Gold for his podcast Heretics, and questions about family and parenting came up here too.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

I suppose it's a horrible question, but would you know if you were having another child and you knew that Lucy Letby was going to be the nurse at that hospital, would you take your, would you do it there?

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

I mean, I wouldn't go to the Countess of Chester Hospital for sure, but if it was at a proper hospital, I think the evidence that has revealed about the quality of care that Lucy Lepy was giving to those children was that she was highly qualified and there isn't evidence to suggest that she intentionally harmed any of these babies. So yeah, I would, I would trust my baby in Lucy Lepy's care.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

That's quite something.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

This interview was heard by a couple in Cheshire parents who had had direct contact with Lucy Letby. Having been silent for a decade, they reached out to me, ready to share the story of what happened to their baby at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

We wanted to know for sure if any of the things that had happened to her, which we thought were just medical, had been induced by this person that was being accused of murder.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

This is Doubt the Case of Lucy letby. Bonus Episode 3 Claire and Carl.

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[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

What was your first experience of birth like?

[Claire (Mother)]

Fine. Easy as anything. Yeah, didn't even know I was in labour, wasn't in enough pain. They woke me up and said you need to push. And I was like okay. And he was fine and perfect, natural, no problems. Went home the next day. Wow. Yeah.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

And how about for the birth of your daughter? This is Claire who gave birth to her daughter at the Countess of Chester in May 2016 when Lucy Letby was at her supposedly most dangerous and prolific.

[Claire (Mother)]

Yeah, I was admitted a week before and I had the same week after. The pregnancy was awful. She was transverse which meant she was lying sideways, but she was up. She was down sideways, just kept spinning around. I was older as well, so they were a little bit concerned about that. The actual birth was an emergency section, and it was the most traumatic thing I've ever gone through. Why is that? Just the way it. They came in to monitor me and said, her heart rate isn't very good. Then I pushed the big red button. It's going to get very busy very fast. It did. And everyone flew in and they just said, get on your side, get on your side. They just said, we're taking you for a section now. And I was like, crying. They wanted to put me to sleep. And I said, no, because I want Carl to be there because his only experience of being a father at birth. They eventually agreed. They put the sheet up, and there was so many people in there. And I asked them, when are you going to start? And they said, we already have. I was getting punched to death in my stomach. I thought I was going to throw up. I was sweating. She took 47 minutes to get out. Wow. She was little. She was tiny. And they just took her straight to check her over. And that's when Carl came in, and then Carl came back with her to me. And that's when the nurse came past and said, you've got to take her. She's got nostril flare. And they just took her away.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

Nostril flare in babies is a sign of potential respiratory distress, a very serious condition in such a small baby.

[Claire (Mother)]

So when the nurse looked at her, because she was wrapped up so well, she just saw her nostrils really flaring and said, sorry, just took her off call. And then a guy came in and said, here's a picture of her. You can see her shortly after recovery. Obviously, I was in a wheelchair, and I went in to see her, and she was on lying on her front with a bum in the air. And she had a big mask on her face, a breathing mask, loads of wires. And I said to the nurse, should she be lying on her front? And they're like, she's fine. She's monitored up to everything. And they said she was okay. She just can't get a big breath in. And it was actually Lucy that said that to us. She explained what was going on.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

Carl, Claire's husband, also recalls Lucy on the neonatal ward.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

Lucy left being very serious, very quiet, just quietly doing what she needed to do. It looked like she was taking stats, so she was looking at the monitor. She's writing things down. And then she spoke to us briefly, and then she went on. I think she went to another baby in the corner and then off out the room.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

At this point, their new baby daughter Jessica had had a battery of tests including X rays and a lumbar puncture, and was now on antibiotics in case of any infection. All normal procedures. But they were told one thing that was a cause for a little concern. She had had two so called pale moments.

[Claire (Mother)]

And I said, what are they? And they said it's where the stats drop and we don't know why, but she's okay now. So I was like okay.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

In the following days, Claire and her husband Carl spent time between the maternity ward and the neonatal unit. And before we get to how Lucy interacted with their baby, we need to understand what conditions were actually like in Countess of Chester Hospital. Because those conditions, if you recall, are at the center of the alternate non criminal explanations for the increased deaths during this time. What was it like on the maternity ward at the time?

[Claire (Mother)]

Not very good to be fair. It was really old, really hot, like ridiculously hot. The doors didn't work properly or the bathrooms weren't very good. There was loads of arguments between staff and people staying on the wards with families. There was police called, there was security there. It just didn't seem very professional.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

Old 70s buildings, automatic doors not working quite right. You have to knock on a window to get someone to let you in, you know, that sort of thing. Lots of hustle and bustle, lots of noise, you know, lifts out of order. The thing that comes across the most is there's a lot of staff complaining and they're not quiet about it. So because we were there for a week and a half or a little bit longer, these people just naturally get to know you and they just tell you about the day and it's nothing but well, this isn't working. Such and such isn't in today. So we're understaffed or we can't do that now because that unit's been shut down for a deep clean. So we've got everybody working on that. So you're not going to get this today. Like everything was a series of compromises that these people had to make every day because of either understaffed or under equipped or the facilities themselves weren't working. So they were waiting for a plumber to come in or they were waiting for an electrician. So that area was out of use until then.

[Claire (Mother)]

On the actual Saturday she was born, I actually woke up with contractions and I was like, this isn't good. So I got up and went to someone and said, I'm having contractions. And they went, oh, wow, well done. And I was like, no, no, this isn't good. I can't have her naturally, you know, her foot might come out or she's lying the wrong way. And they just walked away. So I was like, I need to find someone sort of thing.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

I wasn't shocked that they were all rushed and they were understaffed or shocked that there weren't people to answer questions. We just. That's just part and parcel of what happens when you go through the NHS system.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

What was it like when you went down to visit the neonatal unit?

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

The way it's laid out is there's a room which is very, very dark. They keep the lights very low and I think that's the room where they have the sickest children.

[Claire (Mother)]

It was very, very busy. They were, like, shooting everywhere the staff, and there was monitors going off and that room was kind of quiet. But there were nurses just, like, going everywhere, though. Never, still, ever. And they said, she's fine, she's fine, she's doing well. That was the first night. The second night she was out of there into a separate room in a cottage with no dome over it still wired up on the monitors to check our stats all the time.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

What would you say the vibe of the atmosphere was like?

[Claire (Mother)]

It seemed very intense, very stressed. The atmosphere seemed like you cut it with a knife sort of thing. It was very. Oh, God. You know, I mean, we were sat there with Jessica in a cot and there was monitors going off behind us and nurses rushing everywhere and they're saying, oh, this baby keeps stopped breathing. We don't know why. And I was like, oh, my God. You know, it was very. Not inappropriate, but very like. I didn't want to sit there and witness that. I know we're in a room with poorly babies, but I was like, oh, gosh.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

Did it seem like the nurses knew what to do?

[Claire (Mother)]

Yeah, they did. To be fair,

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

one of the things that the nurses brought up was a small detail, but knowing what follows is possibly a huge clue as to what was going on on the unit.

[Claire (Mother)]

They had a fright because they went to weigh her and she was like, five pounds, and they told us that she was six pound three when she was born. So she's lost a lot of weight very quickly. But they went and checked with the delivery room to make sure and their scales were out. I was like, wow, so many babies have got the wrong weight right now. Well, these babies been born, they've got the wrong we' which is important with A newborn?

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

Yeah, yeah. It depends on what kind of food you give them, what kind of medication you give them.

[Claire (Mother)]

Yep. I was just shocked, really. I was like, that's really important. Part of a newborn baby is like, how much they weigh to how much are they gaining weight, are they losing weight, how much feed you give them, how often you feed them, you know, things like that. I just couldn't believe it, really. I thought, in a neonatal unit, does it not work? You know, it's just a bit bizarre.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

So if the scales were out on the maternity ward, could that mean the babies we know who died from overfeeding could have been saved? Eventually. Thankfully, baby Jessica recovered.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

Lucy Leppie was the one who brought Jessica up to our room in the wardrobe when she was free out of the NICU to come up and sit with us. So she delivered that to us and that was a very short, quick interaction as well. She just, you know, here's your baby kind of thing. She's all yours. My experience is very different than my wife's. You see. Very, very traumatic time for Claire. But for me, it was like one of the best times of my life because my daughter's coming into the world and I thought everything was okay. So those, that week and a half for me was really just filled with, I can't wait to get her home and make sure Claire was recovering quickly.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

How did it feel when you were

[Claire (Mother)]

able to go home after Jessica had finished her antibiotics and got the all clear? It was literally just like, couldn't wait to get home, you know what I mean? Just wanted to leave and never come back ever. When I got home, I just literally put her down. I just needed to go outside and sit down outside and just give myself five minutes to say, I'm home, you know? Yeah, it was really nice to be home.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

Two years later, it's 2018 and Jessica is growing healthy and happy. There had been some issues with her breathing, but she had recovered well. Do you remember when you first heard that there was a case at the hospital against Lucy Letby?

[Claire (Mother)]

Yeah. My sister in law sent me a message, said, have you seen this? And I read it and I was like, oh my gosh.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

When you hear news like that, you go, I knew there was something going on in that unit, but we didn't know what at the time. You just get a feeling there's something wrong, there's a tension in a place, you know. Again, because my experience had been reasonably positive, I hadn't thought about it and dwelled on it as much as Claire had. So when the news came out, it would have affected Claire more than me, really.

[Claire (Mother)]

And it sprung to my mind that these pale moments that she had that couldn't be explained, which I found very strange considering I thought these people in the hospital, worked in that unit, were specialised in very sick children, babies.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

My attitude was, she's here, she's happy, she's healthy, we're lucky, we don't need to be involved, you know.

[Claire (Mother)]

I said, well, I need to find out because it didn't sit with me.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

Well, we wanted to know for sure if any of the things that had happened to her, which we thought were just, you know, medical, had been induced by this person that was being accused of murder. Because just like everybody else and the way the media portrayed it, we just jumped to the conclusion that she must be guilty. Why would you arrest a woman for that, you know, if you didn't have proper evidence? And then the news is saying there's a confession and all the rest of it. So you're just like, well, this person has been in extremely close proximity to my daughter at the time that she was extremely ill. We did want to know if she would be involved in the investigation. And that's when we reached out to the police.

[Claire (Mother)]

I emailed them, I said, the only reason is because she had these two pale moments and they won't explain to me why. And they just came back and said, well, look at her file.

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[Narrator/Host (Amanda Knox)]

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[Commercial Announcer]

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[Pod Meets World Cast (Danielle Fishel, Ryder Strong, Will Friedle)]

This is Danielle Fishel, Ryder Strong and Will Friedle from Pod Meets World. Let's talk chewy.

[Advertiser/Brand Representative (Chewy)]

Yes. For starters, They've got over 100,000 products. Food, treats, toys, beds, and as a dog and a cat mom, I can go to Chewy for literally anything I need. And it ships fast.

[Pod Meets World Cast (Danielle Fishel, Ryder Strong, Will Friedle)]

And Chewy's customer service is unreal. Day or night.

[Claire (Mother)]

They're ready to help.

[Pod Meets World Cast (Danielle Fishel, Ryder Strong, Will Friedle)]

You know what else I love? They handle prescriptions, pet insurance, telehealth, vet visits, and they're rolling out vet clinics across the country for life with pets.

[Advertiser/Brand Representative (Chewy)]

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[Narrator/Host (Amanda Knox)]

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[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

The police working on Operation Hummingbird agreed to investigate Jessyca's file to find out if any intentional harm had been done to their baby by Lucy Letby. Did you have any particular feelings about Lucy Letby at the time when you,

[Claire (Mother)]

when you heard about all of this? I at the time I was like first I thought I couldn't believe it because they were so busy. Where would they find time? They always be together. There's always two nurses. So I was like, how on earth that could have possibly happened? I don't know. You know, because literally they were everywhere. There was nurses just together, flip, flip, flip, flip to different things. And then I was like obviously concerned that something could have happened to Jessica and I wanted to know why. But the only interaction I had with her firstly was that very first Time, she said, this is what we've done to her and bringing her back to our room.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

The police eventually came back to the couple having gone through Jessica's file. They say there is no need for further investigation. Jessyca will not be a part of the case against Lucy Letby.

[Claire (Mother)]

Really relieved, obviously, like, thank goodness. But then still had questions, really, like, if she's not being investigated, why does she have these moments where her stats dropped for no reason at all?

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

It didn't matter to me because she's here, she's happy, she's healthy, she's got a great mind. She's completely just everything you could ever want out of a child. So it was like, all's well that ends well, was my kind of feeling at that point.

[Claire (Mother)]

We thought, okay, we're done. Then it came out again in socials and the news that she was accused of more. So I thought to myself, well, if they missed that first time around, maybe they missed my daughters. So I said, look, I'm not happy. Like, obviously, new information's come out, so reinvestigate my daughter.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

In light of Lucy Letby's second arrest, Operation Hummingbird, agree to take another look at baby Jessica's file. They also make Claire and Carl an unexpected offer.

[Claire (Mother)]

Would you like to meet with the head of the hospital and the head of pediatrics and they can go through what happened to Jessica while she was in the unit? And I said, perfect. And he said, okay, we'll arrange that. You'll hear from the countess in the next few days.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

Let's talk about that meeting at the hospital.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

It very much was a please don't sue us meeting was the feel, you know, it was, we haven't done anything wrong. Don't worry, your child was not in any way involved. Oh, but by the way, she did have all these things done to her, and you should know them already. It was a very dismissive attitude to us. It was like, well, don't worry, she's fine, was the takeaway that they were trying to give us.

[Claire (Mother)]

One of them was head of the hospital, and the one was the head of pediatrics. The head of pediatrics had a piece of paper with him, and they said, I've got a list here of what happened to Jessica while she was onto the unit. I said, okay, yeah, read it out. Great. So they said she had what we were told, and then they said she needed to be intubated and have medicine put into her lungs to help her breathe. And we were like, what? And it said, well, it says here Parents informed. And we were like, no, we were not informed at all because both of us just went, oh, Said you? Oh my gosh. Then the head of hospital said, well, she was the sickest baby in the unit for 24 hours. Was she? I said, if I knew that, I wouldn't have left her side. We weren't told.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

In a meeting lasting 45 minutes, Claire and Carl finally get their answer as to why their baby had suffered pale moments.

[Claire (Mother)]

He said, well, a baby with reflux, if they lie in the back, they hold the breath and the stats drop. And I said, if I knew that then I wouldn't be here now. No one in a unit that worked with sick babies who were specialized in looking after sick babies could tell me that. No. And he was like, well, that's what happens with a baby remlux. You just hold the breasts.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

And at the same time, they learned that the woman who was accused of being a serial killer of babies had complete access and control over the health of their newborn.

[Claire (Mother)]

And he was like, oh, yeah, you know, quite blase about it. He said, oh, I know all the things in the media at the moment about, you know, certain staff members, but she was her lead nurse and she went through all the right procedures to get help. So I sat there and I was like, wait, wait, you're telling me that the person in the media, Lucy let be, was Jessica's lead nurse and twice she had to call for help because she was going to die unless someone came to help. So she went all through the correct procedure and called the right people, did the right thing twice over two days.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

The revelation that this so called serial killer had saved our child's life twice like an angel, without our knowledge, never asking or telling us that she'd done it. Never. You know, wasn't like she was trying to look at me. I'm the greatest nurse in the world. She didn't even tell us that she was her lead nurse. She just got on and did her job to the best of her ability. And now I have my daughter because of that. So this just. It doesn't make sense. You know, whenever we talk about any part of this, it always comes back to the same question. It just doesn't make logical sense. And when things don't make sense, there's usually either missing information or somebody's telling lies, one or the other.

[Claire (Mother)]

You know, how is it possible that she's been accused of randomly going around these babies, but then sees my baby and does everything that she should when being trained for. I saved her Twice. She didn't do that. Jessica wouldn't be here. You know, she could have said, please learn nothing, you know, and nature take its course, but she didn't. It's so hard to get that around my head because it's like she was accused of being a serial killer and I was like, well, why would you? She saved my daughter's life twice.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

Operation Hummingbird came back to the parents and confirmed again that there was no need to investigate Jessica's case.

[Claire (Mother)]

I asked the police, why do you think she left Jessica alone if she did do stuff? And she said, lack of opportunity. And I said, lack of opportunity. But she saved her life twice. That is a perfect opportunity right there if she wanted. But she didn't. She saved twice. And apparently Carl said he remembered the second intervention. Lucy actually did something to Jessica to help her before the consultant came in. So she more than just did the procedure, but she actually did something to her to help, to save her. So I couldn't get that around me as, like, lack of opportunity. So, no, that's not an answer

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

for this family. The revelation that this supposed serial killer had gone above and beyond to save their child had a huge effect.

[Claire (Mother)]

I felt guilty for not being there for Jessica because I should have been as a mum and that I felt very guilty that, in a way she survived and the others died. So that stayed with me for a very long time. I had nightmares, anxiety, really bad anxiety about her. The fear of losing her all the time. Wouldn't leave her with anyone, didn't trust anyone. I wouldn't leave her with any medical person again by herself, ever. Her or dad is with her. After I found that out, that's when the nightmare started of this losing her. You know, the loss of nearly losing her, people nabbing her, taking her, you know, it was really not a good time. Like I say, it was a relief. But at the same time, it still didn't sit with me at all very well. It still bothers me now. I still get upset about it now. That shouldn't happen. You know, I try to talk to counsellors about it. They don't seem interested in it. It's like they don't want to talk about it.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

Why not?

[Claire (Mother)]

I don't know. I really don't know. I say to them, this is like what's happened in the last few years to me to make me feel quite sad or anxious. It's the anxiety that gets me. And I bring up Lucy and I bring up the hospital and they just don't ever touch base on it.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

And these are just like therapists that you reach out to. Just people don't want to talk about it.

[Claire (Mother)]

And I say, this has happened, you know, that's happened. And it just never. It's never talked about. Probably too frightened to. I don't know.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

How do you cope with all of this? Like, it's almost like you have insider knowledge that other people don't have. Like, is that strange? How do you cope with all of this?

[Claire (Mother)]

It's very frustrating when you're trying to give your information to help. Maybe I sent an email to the court when she was in trial to say, like, the scales were wrong. That's why overfeeding babies, maybe that was why. Because I hate unfairness. I really do. And it's a simple thing. Like, if they said, oh, this baby has dropped so much weight, let's get loads of milk in it. And then they're like, you ever fed that baby? Well, yeah, of course it is, because your scales, hospital scales are wrong. In a neonatal unit, Carl wrote this big email to Operation Hummingbird, and they basically said, well, she's been investigated twice. There's nothing there. It's like, no, you're not listening. It's not about her. It's about the hospital.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

I've got this idea that this potential serial killer has saved my child. I'd say over 90% sure that they've blamed bad management and bad procedures and badly run units on one individual. They've seen an opportunity to scapegoat somebody. I feel. I don't believe for one minute that there's a individual out there who's capable of murdering one baby and then passing up on the opportunity to murder another twice. Maybe people can be that crazy. I don't know. I don't know. I hope not. But it doesn't make any sense to me. You know, I'd love to just sit down with Lucy and say, look, what happened that day. Why did you do what you did and why didn't you hurt her if that's what you did? I said this to my wife. The only person that could answer that question for us is Lucy. If she is guilty, and if she's not guilty, then I don't believe a word that came out of the hospital's mouth.

[Claire (Mother)]

Anyway,

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

over the years, as more information came out about the case, doubt and confusion continued to grow for this couple.

[Claire (Mother)]

I asked the head of the hospital, when we had that meeting, at the time Jessica went into that unit, did you have any idea or any knowledge that anything untoward was going on in that unit. Because if you did, you purposely knowingly put our daughter's life at risk. Because that would be, like, base, wouldn't it? And he was like, no, nothing. Didn't do a thing. After we watched that documentary, I was like, they lied so bad because they absolutely knew. They absolutely knew way before Jessica went in there that something was going on and put her in there and lied about it. So I said to Carl, for all we know right now in that meeting, that could have been all lies.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

It's all about saving themselves from being sued or, you know, bad press. They'll tell you anything to make you walk away happy. So I can't.

[Commercial Announcer]

I.

[Carl (Claire's Husband)]

We don't even know if Lucy actually did save our child. We think she did because it says so in the notes. But I don't know if I can even trust the notes at this point. We're left in a, like, this limbo of, who do you believe? Because the hospital can't be trusted, the police can't be trusted. Nobody seems to be interested in finding out what really happened anyway, apart from independent people like yourself. It feels like the administration and everybody else involved and the media just decided, that's it, she's guilty. And we're just gonna make that fit however we can. And if we hear opposing opinions to that, we're just gonna keep them quiet and push them out of the way. That's what it feels like has happened.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

I really can empathize with your determination to know the truth of what happened. And it seems odd to me that someone would suggest to you, well, what do you care? Your kid's fine. Can you talk to me about, like, how you manage that almost confrontation? Like, do you feel like people are questioning your motives?

[Claire (Mother)]

Or like I just say, were you there? And they're like, no, I was. We were. It's like, you didn't see the things we see. We didn't go through what we went through. You haven't been told that your child nearly died twice by suppose a serial killer that saved her life twice. So you can't possibly imagine or start to imagine how it is for us and the fact that if it comes out something different, could you sit there and honestly say someone's been in prison and been found innocent or whatever, and who saved our daughter's life twice if we did nothing about it, we didn't stand shout up and say, look, this happened. There's events that happen that shouldn't have in the hospital. We don't sit well with that. Just telling Our story, our experience of what happened to us whilst we were there with our daughter and afterwards when we had insurrection with the hospital. Because no one really listens to those stories. They want to hear the sad ones or the horrid ones or the gritty ones or, you know, ones. That gets more interest in my eyes.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

How did you feel about the families of the lost babies at this time?

[Claire (Mother)]

So it's like a survivor's guilt, like she's mine was spared but at a cost of losing theirs. And I wouldn't want to know how they feel. I just couldn't bear it. It still upsets me to this day because I don't feel it to happen to my children. I never recover, ever. Yeah, and that's what I mean. It's like they've gone through so much for so long. Like I say, I feel really, really sorry for them and I always will. Always.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

The toll on Claire and Carl has been great even for a family who were lucky enough to have been able to bring their child home safe. I want to thank them for sharing their story with me, but also the many people who have shared their personal stories and comments as well. Next week we meet with Mark McDonald and David Davis in London to hear more about their involvement in the Lucy Letby case. That's next week on the Case of Lucy Letby. The Case of Lucy Letby is brought to you by this fucci Iheart Podcasts and Knox Robinson Productions. I've been your host, Amanda Knox. This episode was written by Isis Thompson. The producer was Isis Thompson. The assistant producer was Ami Gill. Senior producer is Natalia Rodriguez. The sound designer is Chandler Mays. The theme music was written by Tom Biddle. Story editing by Natalia Rodriguez. Legal advice for the series was provided by Jack Browning. The producers at iHeart Podcasts are Chandler Mays and Katrina Norville. The executive producers were Joe Meek, Amanda Knox, Christopher Robinson, Daniel Turkin and Johnny Galvin.

[Commercial Announcer]

Foreign.

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

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[Narrator/Host (Amanda Knox)]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] youm know what quality feels like you can see it in the way a fabric moves, recognize it in a flawless fit and appreciate it in the details that make our styles unique. It's the standard Coldwater Creek has honored for over 40 years, derived from a rich Mountain west heritage and designed for today in styles that are distinctively Coldwater Creek. For a wardrobe you can count on season after season, visit coldwatercreek.com, shop new arrivals and save 15% on purchases. 75 doll or more with code iHeart

[Commercial Announcer]

when you own your own business, you need to keep things moving. Need to book a last minute flight? Earn a $300 travel credit to cover that. Need to take a meeting before takeoff? Do it from the comfort of the Chase Sapphire Lounge by the club. Need to catch your breath before you board? Done. Chase Sapphire Reserved for business the business card that gives back all you put in. Visit Chase.com ReserveBusiness to learn more. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase bank any member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply.

[Pod Meets World Cast (Danielle Fishel, Ryder Strong, Will Friedle)]

This is Danielle Fishel, Ryder Strong and Will Friedle from Pod Meets World. You know what I didn't expect? Becoming best friends with Chewy's customer service.

[Advertiser/Brand Representative (Chewy)]

Oh, been there. I've chatted with them as late as midnight. They actually get pet people.

[Pod Meets World Cast (Danielle Fishel, Ryder Strong, Will Friedle)]

And if Pickles or Lucky hate something, I just send it back. 100% satisfaction guarantee gives you a whole year to make a return, no questions asked.

[Advertiser/Brand Representative (Chewy)]

Meanwhile, I'm over here ordering everything for bill and brunch. Food, treats, beds, toys. Because Chewy has over 100,000 products to

[Pod Meets World Cast (Danielle Fishel, Ryder Strong, Will Friedle)]

choose from and it shows up in like a day. I mean, my dog Sammy thinks the delivery driver is her personal assistant, and I'm not sure she's wrong. It's not just for dogs and cats either. They've got stuff for birds, fish, reptiles. The list goes on and on.

[Advertiser/Brand Representative (Chewy)]

And the health side is huge for me too. Prescriptions, pet insurance, telehealth, vet visits.

[Pod Meets World Cast (Danielle Fishel, Ryder Strong, Will Friedle)]

They're even opening vet clinics now. My cat pretends he doesn't care, but he benefits.

[Advertiser/Brand Representative (Chewy)]

Chewy just makes the whole pet parent thing easier for life. With pets, the answer is chewy. Save $20 on your first order with free shipping at chupanions.chewy.com World There's a

[Narrator/Host (Amanda Knox)]

Fire inside you you can't ignore.

[Amanda Knox (Host/Interviewer)]

Stand still.

[Narrator/Host (Amanda Knox)]

Not a chance. You're a lifelong learner who's come this far. Now we are here. Here to help you keep going further. Capella University what can't you do? Visit capella.edu to learn more. This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human.