Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (3:11)

before we begin, please be aware this episode contains discussions around infant deaths and other difficult topics. Please take care while listening. Certainty has a reputation for being the finish line, whether that's in a criminal trial or a scientific study. You gather evidence, you form a hypothesis, you test it, you doubt it, you stress it from every angle. And only then, if it survives, do you arrive at certainty. There's an old scientific principle that says extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That's supposed to be the order of things. The more explosive the accusation, the more incontrovertible the proof. But in emotionally explosive cases, especially those involving children, something shifts. Certainty can stop behaving like the end result of careful analysis and start behaving more like a social ritual. Here's what I mean. When something horrifying happens, ambiguity feels intolerable. It feels unsafe. So we reach for narrative closure. The media reaches for a coherent villain. Politicians reach for reassurance, institutions reach for control. And slowly, certainty begins to function less like a reasoned position and more like a place of belonging. The narrative about me as a psychopathic, sex crazed femme fatale hardened in the tabloids long before appeals courts dismantled key forensic assumptions. The certainty was loud. The evidence was not. Now, that doesn't mean every high profile conviction is wrong. What it does mean is that sometimes the volume of certainty exceeds the foundation of evidence beneath it. And when that happens, doubt becomes socially dangerous. People who ask procedural questions are treated as sympathizers. Journalists who probe inconsistencies are framed as insensitive. Experts who disagree are accused of undermining victims. The signal shifts from here is why we believe this to everyone decent believes this. And once belief becomes a moral litmus test, the space for inquiry shrinks. From a psychological standpoint this is deeply human. Accusations of harming children trigger one of the strongest protective circuits we have. Disgust narrows our thinking. It sharpens categories. Innocent or evil, that reflex is adaptive. In evolutionary terms, it's messier in legal ones. Courts are built around structured doubt, reasonable doubt. There must always be room for doubt, a certain, especially in light of new evidence. Far too often, our legal systems fall short of this ideal. And in the court of public opinion, that ideal is hard to imagine. Socially, doubt often looks like betrayal, and certainty of someone else's moral corruption becomes a badge of honor. So what happens when that certainty lands on you? I'm Amanda Knox and from Vespucci and I Heart podcasts, this is the case of Lucy Letby. Episode ten, Reasonable Doubt.

Anna Vasquez (7:30)

When the headlines were read about myself, you know, I was a villain, you know, from the get go. I mean, it was the lowest of the low that you could be the way that I was portrayed. Yeah, yeah. Just difficult to talk about when it comes to that. And I just hate that I'm associated with that.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (7:52)

This is Ana Vasquez of the San Antonio Four. She spent nearly 14 years in prison after being wrongly convicted of molesting children in her care. The prosecution built the case on recovered memory testimony that was later discredited. It took nearly 18 years for Anna and her three CO defendants to be exonerated. They were all gay women. The courts ultimately determined that the crimes they were accused of never even happened.

Amanda Knox (8:26)

You know, when I saw images of Lucy in the media, I definitely saw myself. The fear and the isolation and this disassociated sense of self.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (8:44)

That's Heidi Goodwin. In 2014, Heidi walked out of prison after nearly a decade behind bars. She had been convicted of harming a child in her care under a shaken baby syndrome diagnosis, a theory later challenged in court. Ultimately, the court determined that again, there was no crime at all.

Amanda Knox (9:06)

You're being accused, especially of something that as a woman, we are designed to nurture, whether that's our own or someone else's.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (9:20)

Heidi and Anna are friends of mine, both wrongly convicted of crimes against children, both members and advocates for the Innocence Network, and both survivors of the machinery of public certainty. For Anna, her prosecution took place in 1994. Her case was one of the last gasps of the satanic panic that gripped the US in the 80s and 90s, a period of intense cultural anxiety about alleged ritual abuse. It was also a time when anti gay prejudice was still openly mainstream. In that environment, identity became part of the story, and assumption traveled faster than

Anna Vasquez (10:06)

proof to be villainized for the person that I am. And for them to come up with this narrative of, you know, preying on children and, you know, having this orgy with myself and my three other friends against these poor, innocent little girls, it's. Man, that's just. That's really just detrimental to me. Unfortunately, because of what was happening in society, the climate and the way they viewed the LGBTQ back then, all of a sudden this other panic is in called the satanic panic. And when you have an expert witness coming on and putting that in their notes, Amanda, the law enforcement gets. I feel like they got riled up. You know, this satanic panic was real. I mean, these. These people were using this in court cases, in civil court cases. And I had no idea that this was actually happening, you know, at the very young age of 19. Completely naive to the way the system can be twisted and turned and not before you anymore, but now they're against you and they're firing at all rounds. Yeah, but it didn't matter. There were so many inconsistencies in the trials, but there was no getting away from that expert witness coming in and saying there was signs of sexual trauma. Now we know years later, of course, it's, you know, been 24, 26 years now that, oh, we made a mistake. We testified wrong to that. That was an actual proof of signs of sexual assault. And, you know, now we're exonerated. But it took years and years and years, but we had no fighting chance. I mean, and like you said, children are vulnerable. We want to protect children. It just sucked to be on the other side of it. And now I'm this horrible person, this horrible monster. It's just really mind blowing that an allegation like that could lead to a conviction on absolutely no basis.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (12:22)

Heidi's prosecution relied on a different narrative, one rooted in medical certainty rather than moral panic. But the effect was the same.

Amanda Knox (12:33)

I was, I believe, 22, 23 years old, and I was living outside of Portland, Oregon, and I became a caregiver for two children over roughly a two month period. One of them was 15 months old. This little girl lost consciousness in my care. I had to call 91 1. And then the wave of accusations, oh, it's shaken baby syndrome. Oh, it had to happened in this window. So therefore, it had to happen at your house, and you were the only adult there, and only adult could be responsible for inflicting these types of injuries. And that's basically what convicted me. They had to convince the jury that I snapped, because how else could they get them to Believe that someone that looks like me, speaks like me, has

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (13:28)

no history of violence, like you, has

Amanda Knox (13:30)

no history of violence whatsoever. Mother, you know, raising her children, all of the things that we're supposed to be doing and looking like and acting like that was the only way they could convince them was to say that I must have snapped. And we now know that, you know, none of that is actually true. Our experts were able to determine that there were pre existing conditions and those could possibly have led to the loss of consciousness. I think for me, finally realizing that I don't have to be the one to figure that out, that has been a struggle. Like, I feel like I've had to answer. I've had to be the one to answer for what happened and figure out what happened and explain what happened, to defend myself when I am not a professional that would know those things. All I know is that I wasn't responsible for harming anyone. And. And so that was. It's been over 20 years of my life.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (14:34)

Now, in my case, things went off the rails early. The story exploded internationally, and suddenly the police were operating under enormous pressure to produce answers and to produce them fast. I've had to ask myself how much that urgency influenced their decision. Do you think the fact that our cases were all highly emotionally charged fed into how law enforcement went about investigating the case and all of the shortcuts and mishandling that took place?

Amanda Knox (15:13)

I do. Specifically, I think that there was pressure. I think that the county that I was convicted in has a lot of these types of cases actually litigated or tried and has a high rate of conviction. Now, whether they're all innocence cases, you know, I can't make that claim, but I know that it also has a high rate of innocence cases that have been overturned with some of the guys as well. So I think that there was pressure on the Child abuse intervention detective unit to do what it does. And there were terms used at the time like, she's being railroaded. They're making an example out of her. Things to that nature. So, yeah, it was crazy because the judge in the case, all said and done, he stated at sentencing, you know, I'm not sure we got this right.

Anna Vasquez (16:12)

Wow.

Amanda Knox (16:13)

To honor the verdict of the jury.

Peter Elston (16:15)

Wow.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (16:16)

What about you, Anna? I mean, clearly the headlines were like taking advantage of the case to sensationalize it. Do you think that that impacted the investigation?

Anna Vasquez (16:26)

Yeah, I think it was something that somebody could, you know, climb the ladder on because it was just the way that it read, you know, it was just so horrific that yes, we have to get a conviction. And yes, this could put me in, you know, as judge. As a matter of fact, in Liz's

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (16:40)

trial, she's referring to one of her co defendants, Liz Ramirez.

Anna Vasquez (16:44)

Yeah, that prosecutor did become judge. It was almost like they were just solely focused on us. No, there was no investigation. There wasn't anything, you know, it was just us.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (16:57)

So one of the things that really threw me through an existential loop was when I was convicted, like, the jury comes down, you are a monster. Definitively, this is the rule of law. And like I felt like my entire sense of self completely splintered apart because it was like this idea of a person, this story of a person had now more reality around it than me. Right. Like this idea of an evil, sex crazed murder orgy person was now the official truth. And everyone was now going like, all, all reality was now around this official truth and that, you know, that idea of a person was sentenced to this many years in prison and, and that was now the, the story that they were telling. My friend's family, her surviving family is now like, okay, we got the bad guy. The bad guy's put away. But. But it's me. It's me that's being sent to prison, not the bad guy. That's not the truth for me. Like, I had this really existential crisis moment because in that moment I realized the truth didn't matter. And as a part of that, I didn't matter. And what do I do with that? And that was like a really dark moment for me as a 22 year old kid. Do you guys remember what that was like for you?

Amanda Knox (18:29)

Yeah, I. It ruptured, like my sense of identity and autonomy and it, you know, we have layers of childhood traumas, things that happen, you know, and it, it surfaced all those insecurities and fears, right. That told me I'm not good. Something must be bad enough about me that makes this thing happen. I knew that I wasn't responsible for hurting a child or anyone. But I'm bad because this is happening and I have to go away and accept this somehow. It was this like really defeated feeling.

Mark McDonald (19:20)

Hmm.

Amanda Knox (19:20)

I really was convinced that I was bad somehow and that this was supposed to be happening to me.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (19:27)

Totally. And you know what's interesting? I don't know if you guys know this. There are post it notes that Lucy Letby wrote where she was like, I'm not good enough. I am evil.

Anna Vasquez (19:37)

Wow.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (19:38)

Yeah. What about you, Anna?

Anna Vasquez (19:40)

It wasn't so much. I'm thinking I'm a bad person. But what it did make me do it start questioning my faith. Am I going through this because God doesn't like it? You know, am I going against my faith and what I should be, right? Living as a woman, getting married, having children.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (19:59)

I mean, it's a crazy thing that's happening to us, right? Like, it's a crazy thing that is happening and your brain is trying to make sense of it. Like, how do you make sense of it? It just does not make any sense.

Amanda Knox (20:12)

Yeah, I was like clinging on to things like what did I do in my past life? You know, karma. But ultimately, you know, feeling like I'm just, this is where I belong somehow. This is where I belong.

Anna Vasquez (20:24)

Yeah, that's funny that you say that, Heidi, because I felt that same way after, you know, a certain time. All the way in prison, I was like, you know what? I need to stop asking why? Because I'll never know

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Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (23:43)

I could tell you that this episode features an interview with Lucy herself. I've written to her in prison and to her family, and spoken with her lawyer on several occasions, and she and her team have decided that now is not the time for her to speak out publicly. No one else knows the stakes of that decision better than them. It would be nice if verdicts were only as strong as the evidence and interpretation reached by a jury. Sadly, that's often not the case. I know plenty of Innocence Project attorneys who have to turn down strong cases for innocence because there's no viable procedural route to freedom. I get messages all the time from people stuck inside claiming innocence, some of whom have exhausted all their appeals. There's little I can do to help them, because in the US or the UK there is no right to being free just because you're innocent. There's only a right to a fair trial. As of today, Lucy Letby's convictions still stand and she's been refused permission to appeal through the Court of Appeal. But for her current lawyer, Mark McDonald, the case is far from over.

Mark McDonald (25:13)

So there's two elements to this. The first element is the most important element. You don't. You don't undo a conviction unless you have the legal arguments and the expertise to be able to do so. And so that's with all the expert reports and experts that have come forward from across the world. The second is to change the narrative around her, to use that media storm of Ferrari that was around her when she was convicted and to turn the story. And the reason for that is because we do have a system in this country, post conviction system, which many argue is not fit for purpose, that innocent people do remain in prison and that the system has let them down.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (26:04)

According to Mark, Lucy's path back to the Court of Appeals runs through the Criminal Cases Review Commission, the body tasked with reviewing potential miscarriages of justice. He says that in recent years the Commission has faced mounting criticism, particularly after several wrongful convictions were overturned, despite earlier decisions not to refer those cases back to court.

Mark McDonald (26:30)

And as a result, a number of people have had to resign and there's a massive spotlight on them. So there's that and there's the Criminal Court of Appeal. And this is my view that feels a reluctance to go behind a jury's verdict that they seemed that there's a finality to a jury system and as a result I'm reluctant to really interfere, interfere with that, even when there can be compelling evidence or conviction is unsafe. And we as defense barristers are often given a hard time when we get to the Court of Appeal by the judges, because we're seen as people that shouldn't be interfering with the system almost. And if you are somebody that has a strong narrative of guilt around you, then you'll find in both those bodies really against you right from the beginning. And so it's important to get an alternative narrative. They're not a false alternative, not a pretend narrative, but simply tell the truth as to what's going on and exposing the issues.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (27:36)

For Mark, it's clear the media played a powerful role in amplifying the story of Lucy Letby's guilt. Now he's using that same platform to scrutinize the case.

Mark McDonald (27:50)

And so, yes, there's been a campaign in the media to which I have fronted and have driven it intentionally. But as I say, if you don't have the legal argument in the first place, doesn't matter about anything. Else in relation to the media, you're just not going to win. The legal element, the expert element is the priority.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (28:14)

It's the pairing of expert testimony and media scrutiny that he believes creates momentum. That's where Dr. Xu Li and the international panel come in. Independent specialists whose findings challenged the original medical narrative and who were willing to stand by those conclusions publicly.

Mark McDonald (28:35)

He contacted me and said, look, if we find that actually she is guilty, then we're going to say it. So Lucy had a decision. Does she go with that?

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (28:46)

But as you heard in the last

Anna Vasquez (28:48)

episode, in our opinion, the medical opinion, the medical evidence doesn't support murder in any of these babies.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (28:57)

But challenging a conviction in public is always a risk, even if you have the expert testimony to back it up. Mark's arguments were met with shock, sharp scrutiny, particularly around the families of the children who died.

Mark McDonald (29:13)

I often get in interviews, what about the families? And the one thing I've said now is, look, I have over a thousand pages of expert evidence from 24 separate individual experts. I am happy to give them to the families and they can see it. And I'm happy to provide the neonatologist to sit with them in the room and explain the issues and where things have gone wrong, number one. But number two, it's about getting to the truth. What these parents want to know, what they desperately want to know, is what happened to their child. You see, first of all, it started off with the fact that their child has died and they've had to go through the grief of losing their child. And then years later, somebody's come to them and said, in fact, we think your child was intentionally hurt and murdered. And then they've had to sit through a trial, is sometimes given evidence in front of the jury in that trial, and then she's been convicted of it. And then along comes Mark McDonald and says, I think this conviction might be unsafe and I think she may be innocent.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (30:16)

Whatever happens next in Lucy Letby's case, one fact does not change. Parents lost their children and families continue to live with that loss. Legal challenges may move forward, appeals may be argued, evidence may be re examined, but grief does not depend on a verdict.

Mark McDonald (30:41)

They're going to be angry and they have a right to be angry, but they need, you know, I would say they have to be angry at the right people because if she is innocent, then what has happened? What has gone so wrong, both with the police, both the prosecution and the health service, that they've been so let down? Because the one thing that Shu Lee has identified is a Systematic poor health care for medical staff towards their children.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (31:10)

This is one of the hardest parts of any wrongful conviction case. The families of the victim grasp onto the answer given to them as a source of closure. And then when an innocence claim arises, it's like that closure is being ripped away. In my own case, the Kercher family has made it clear through their lawyer that they still doubt my innocence. I understand why it's difficult for them to let go of the answers offered to them, however wrong they were. And they are not outliers in any way. In most wrongful conviction cases I've studied, the families of the victim hold firm to the narrative originally offered to them by the prosecution. If Lucy Letby is innocent, then that means that hospital administrators and Cheshire police and the prosecutors and judges have denied them closure and instead thrown them into years of having to publicly relive their trauma of having answers given and taken away. That is psychological torture that no grieving parent deserves. In recent months, the Crown Prosecution Service announced it would not pursue several remaining charges against Lucy Letby. Prosecutors said the evidence in those cases would not meet the threshold required for conviction, the standard of proof beyond reasonable doubt. Some of that evidence overlapped with material previously examined in court, including in the case of Baby K. Peter Elston, a scientist and reporter, was one of the very first voices to express concern about the case even before the first trial had finished. He was arguably instrumental in getting the pro Lucy let be movement started. For Peter, this newest decision by the CPS signals to something very important.

Peter Elston (33:16)

November 2020 were brought by the Merseyside, the regional CPS, whereas this recent announcement was made by the Serious Crime and Counterterrorism Unit of the cps, which is a national part of the cps. The original's decision to bring charges should not have been made by the Merseyside branch of the cps. All complex serious cases charging decision has to be made by the Serious Crime Division of the cps. So why it was made by the regional CPS is a really important question that needs answering. Because if the strength of the evidence in relation to recent charges that Cheshire Police wanted the CPS to consider was the same as the evidence in terms of strength as the original charges, then it puts into question why charges were brought in 2020. I'm not a lawyer, so I do need to be a bit careful, but I think it's quite likely, given the number of experts who found holes in the evidence, had it been the Serious Crime Division DPS who were asked bring charges against Lucy Letby, they would have said no. They would have looked at the evidence and they would have said, sorry, that's just not good enough.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (34:56)

The decision to not pursue further charges does not overturn any of Lucy Letby's convictions, but it has added another layer to the public debate surrounding them. For Peter Elston, the public discourse around the case is vital.

Peter Elston (35:14)

I feel desperately sorry for wrongly convicted people who are not, whose cases, for whatever reason, generate the same interest. But Lucy Letby's case has, and the role that the public has played in driving interest, driving public opinion, getting journalists interested.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (35:34)

It's essential because according to Peter, both the CCRC and the Court of Appeals do not exist in a vacuum.

Peter Elston (35:44)

They're both very political institutions who will look at the way the wind is blowing. And if they see that public opinion has shifted and is very much in Lucy's favor, they're far more likely to decide in her favor. The reality is this is the way things have to happen. If you've got a lot of public voice behind a defendant, a wrongly convicted individual, then that, I think that makes things a lot quicker. But it really is absolutely essential for public opinion to play a role in these cases.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (36:25)

Whether or not public pressure should influence legal institutions is a matter of debate. But in Lucy Letby's case, the legal fight now unfolds alongside an increasingly vocal and heated public conversation.

Mark McDonald (36:40)

We've been told by a court she's

Public Investing Ad Host (36:41)

guilty, and we sort of all nod

Mark McDonald (36:43)

our heads and think, oh, well, you know, she must be, must be guilty of all of that.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (36:47)

Parents of the convicted baby killer Lucy Letby have told Good Morning Britain their daughter is innocent and the victim of a horrendous miscarriage of justice.

Mark McDonald (36:58)

Big day for Netflix today. They have a Lucy Letby documentary and

Anna Vasquez (37:03)

it features unseen footage from her arrest day. Police went out to tender with documentary

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (37:12)

companies for this footage and actually it's completely backfired on them because it was a PR exercise on behalf of Cheshire Police. The people on Reddit have been insane. I've always thought she was guilty merely from the media coverage. I guess something filled with feels really off about this case. I'm nowhere near as convinced as I used to be. I now have reasonable doubt, to be perfectly honest. Hopefully we get to the bottom of this once and for all. If she's the monster we were told, then she's where she needs to be. If not, then that means we have monsters loose.

Amanda Knox (37:45)

Father was no monster and she's the

Peter Elston (37:47)

scapegoat for systematic failings.

Public Investing Ad Host (37:50)

I don't buy into any of all this.

Peter Elston (37:52)

Lucy let be was innocent. Sick of it, rather bored of it.

Mark McDonald (37:56)

I think she's as guilty as sin, I suppose.

Peter Elston (37:59)

I don't care that much about the privacy of Lucy Letby.

Mark McDonald (38:03)

She killed babies.

Peter Elston (38:04)

I don't really care about her welfare.

Mark McDonald (38:07)

The Crown Prosecution Service that she won't

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (38:09)

face any further charges.

Mark McDonald (38:11)

When Lucy Letby was convicted back in 2023, I was sure she was a baby killer. I now believe believe that she's an innocent woman, a scapegoat was subconsciously looked for. British justice needs to right that wrong. Justice may be blind in this country, but it's not infallible.

Amanda Knox (38:33)

And I do think the armchair detectives online don't help at all with this. Kind of like, oh well, I think she's this or I think she's that. It's like, no, we need to look at facts.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (38:43)

Make no mistake, in the eyes of the law, the facts are Lucy Letby is a convicted murderer. The noise surrounding the Lucy Letby case only continues to increase. It's something that Anna Vasquez and Heidi Goodwin will never forget. It shaped how they were seen and how their cases were later reconsidered.

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Public Investing Ad Host (39:38)

That's innerbalance.com support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S P500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available@public.com disclosures let's talk about modern home shopping.

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Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (42:13)

that like, my relationship with public scrutiny is a little complicated because I do think that at a certain point the public scrutiny and the public fascination with the case both hurt and ultimately helped me because it got a lot of people to automatically assume that I was a horrible monster. But it also introduced the case to people who otherwise would not have heard about it, who are knowledgeable about these things and who came out and became advocates and started like turning the the like turning the tide and like introducing a new narrative. And so I'm wondering, like what is your personal relationship with public scrutiny and how it helped or hurt your path to, you know, freedom and exoneration?

Amanda Knox (43:00)

For me personally, it's that puzzle piece. Why do we rely so much on what media is saying or science that can be, you know, absolute until it's not? How can we do these things better and how can they be reported better?

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (43:20)

Yeah, like we, we want to rely on experts, especially in the world of the medical field. We want to rely on media professionals to be giving us true information.

Anna Vasquez (43:36)

Yeah, I feel like the media helped to put me away and it actually helped to exonerate me. It's all about the narrative, right?

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (43:47)

Anna's case was covered in an award winning documentary called south of the Story of the San Antonio Four. Her face sits front and center on the poster.

Anna Vasquez (43:59)

I was fearful when they introduced the possibility of doing a doctor documentary about my case. It wasn't until, you know, I actually sat down with Deb Esponazzi, who is the director of the documentary, that we had a conversation face to face while I'm still in prison that I felt like comfortable with thinking that this, this lady is going to tell my story. The truth of it. I didn't know, you know, after seven and a half years of filming Amanda, I didn't know what to expect out of all them years. What are you actually gonna put into

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (44:35)

this film and what narrative are you going to present? Right.

Anna Vasquez (44:39)

So it wasn't until I actually, you know, we actually viewed it that I was like, wow, I made the right choice. And yeah, I mean, there's documentation in our court of criminal appeals ruling where it, you know, has Southwestern Salem in there. So I think it was very powerful. I think that, you know, going out in the public and having these speaking engagements and, you know, all these different things that it helped to really tell my story the right way, the truth.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (45:12)

But of course, just because a conviction is overturned, that doesn't mean that certainty simply disappears. It shifts. The verdict may change, but for many people, the doubt doesn't. I know that one thing that I get a lot and I'm curious to know if this happens to you guys. What still happens to this day is if somebody hears from another person that they know me or they've interacted with me before, inevitably someone will ask them, oh, do you think she did it? Like, this happened 20 years ago. And like, still to this day, people are like, oh, do you think she did it? Like, that's like, this is when we talk about how you have to prove your innocence every day for the rest of your life.

Amanda Knox (46:05)

I had, for the most part, tremendous support from everyone that knew me. There were a couple of one offs. I found out later down the road that behind closed doors would say, do you think? You know, But I mean, I guess that's to be expected. I've now experienced people questioning my integrity and my involvement in the case. They believe that they can use it to their benefit. I'll just be honest. I've not spoken about this publicly, but my ex husband used it in our divorce to try to leverage it to discredit me. And that probably hurt more than anything else.

Anna Vasquez (46:46)

That sucks.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (46:47)

Yeah. What about you, Anna?

Anna Vasquez (46:51)

The documentary was rolling out. You know, all these different things were happening surrounding my case, and one of the things that I first went through was the comments. Don't read the comments, guys. I mean, you know, it doesn't even matter. But it was heartbreaking to hear what they were saying. You know, I had to just let it go. Like, I know what happened, I know the truth, and I'm standing with it. So I can't be concerned what other people are thinking.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (47:27)

Anna's conviction was not only overturned, it was formally expunged from her record. Heidi is still fighting to have her conviction filled, fully vacated and cleared.

Amanda Knox (47:39)

I want it gone so that no one can use that to hurt me or hurt my family. What it will never do is give the time back or healing.

Anna Vasquez (47:52)

You know, for me, it's one speaking with exoneration and expungement. It's like reaffirming what I've always said. I'm innocent. Right. But I think it still can be used against us. And that's my fear too. Right. Just the accusation. Only because, like, you can't tell me that it can't happen because it fucking did. That's the issue that I can't wrap my mind around and can't stand when people say, get over it, move on. You can't.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (48:25)

After being defined by this, like, we all know that we still live with a stigma of it. So what does freedom even really mean?

Anna Vasquez (48:37)

That's a great question.

Amanda Knox (48:40)

I think that it's about reclaiming our own power. That's as, you know, as close as to freedom as we're going to get the freedom physically.

Anna Vasquez (48:58)

Yes. Right. I feel the freedom, obviously.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (49:02)

Except that you still have this policy of not being around little kids.

Anna Vasquez (49:07)

It's funny that you say that, Amanda, because that's where I was gonna say I'm not free.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (49:13)

Yeah.

Anna Vasquez (49:15)

And, you know, there's so many of my closest friends that have children. I don't know how to get past sick. And I wish I could.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (49:25)

Yeah.

Anna Vasquez (49:27)

That if I were to get that back, I think that's when I would feel freedom.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (49:33)

You have a lot of fear. That's totally justified.

Amanda Knox (49:37)

I was going to school for Early Childhood Development. My goal was to have a daycare or be a foster parent. I will never want to run a daycare. And, you know, even with my children, when they have become babysitters or for caring for other children, like, I have to tamp down that fear that I have for them of, you know, what

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (50:00)

if something happens for Peter Elston.

Peter Elston (50:04)

In some ways, I've been a bit disappointed that there hasn't been a bit. There hasn't been more anger expressed by the general public. And I guess because, you know, people have busy lives, they may think that she's innocent, but they don't think that this could happen to them. They're very much mistaken. If people think that they can't be wrongly accused of harming someone in their care, then they're very much mistaken. This can happen very easily.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (50:40)

That may be true in some cases, I know from personal experience, but in Lucy Letby's case, the question remains deeply contested. For many, the verdict is settled. Lucy Letby is guilty. Case closed. But for others, including Peter Elston and Mark McDonald, it's not a question.

Mark McDonald (51:03)

Lucy Letby will be freed. His convictions will be overturned. The only question is when?

Peter Elston (51:10)

Oh, without a doubt, they will be overturned. Without a doubt.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (51:16)

For now, that remains a prediction. Lucy Letby is serving whole life sentences in prison. Cases like this don't just test a defendant, they test the system that judged her. Because if the convictions are sound, the system worked. And if they are not, it failed in ways that can never be fully undone. The implications of this case go far beyond just Lucy herself. The justice system, the medical system, the media. As Dr. Phil Hammond put it, if

Peter Elston (51:55)

this turns out to be wrong, every single level of the British establishment will be torn to shreds.

Amanda Knox (Host/Narrator) (52:03)

If we want any of these systems to be better, we have to be willing to embrace the feeling of doubt, however uncomfortable it is. Thank you for listening to the Case of Lucy Letby. The Case of Lucy Letby is brought to you by Vespucci Iheart Podcast and Knox Robinson Productions. I've been your host, Amanda Knox. This episode was written by Natalia Rodriguez. The co producer was Lucy Ditchment. The assistant producer was Ami Gill. Senior producer is Natalia Rodriguez. The sound designer is Tom Biddle. The theme music was written by Tom Biddle. Legal advice was provided by by Jack Browning. The producers at iHeart Podcasts are Chandler Mays and Katrina Norville. The executive producers were Joe Meek, Amanda Knox, Christopher Robinson, Daniel Turkin and Johnny Galvin. Thank you for listening.

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