Shaking Up the Establishment

Summary

---

DOUBT: The Case of Lucy Letby – Episode Summary

Podcast: Amanda Knox Hosts | DOUBT: The Case of Lucy Letby
Episode: Shaking Up the Establishment (Bonus Episode 4)
Date: June 23, 2026
Host: Amanda Knox
Key Guests: Mark MacDonald (Letby’s barrister), Sir David Davis MP

---

Overview

In this episode, Amanda Knox digs deep into the legal and political establishment surrounding the conviction of Lucy Letby, the neonatal nurse found guilty of murdering and attempting to murder infants under her care. The episode examines the UK legal system’s aversion to admitting error, the ongoing appeals process led by Letby's barrister Mark MacDonald, and the growing political scrutiny of the case, notably from MP Sir David Davis. Throughout, Knox questions not just the evidence against Letby but the broader structures of justice and accountability in the UK, highlighting themes of institutional bias, the reliability of expert testimony, whistleblowing retaliation, and systemic failure in the NHS.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The English Legal Tradition and Its Limitations

• Historic Setting: The episode opens in Lincoln’s Inn, a storied English bar association, to reflect on how tradition shapes the idea of justice.
  • Amanda Knox: “A system this old doesn’t just hand down its rules. It hands down its instincts. Who belongs, who’s reliable, who sounds right. And 600 years of that builds something beautiful and something very sure of itself.” (04:24)
  • Insight: The culture of belonging and established tradition fosters both confidence and a reluctance to admit institutional mistakes.
• The Challenge of Public Scrutiny: Mark MacDonald is breaking tradition by making Letby’s defense argument public—a move at odds with the system’s discreet nature.
  • Amanda Knox: “Mark MacDonald is Lucy Letby's barrister. He's doing something his profession isn't built for. Making the argument out loud in public...” (05:36)

---

2. The Legal Route to Appeal

• Complex Process:
  • Mark MacDonald elaborates on the possible routes for Letby’s release:
    • The CCRC (Criminal Cases Review Commission) can refer the conviction to the Court of Appeal.
    • The Court of Appeal must decide if the convictions are “safe.” If not, convictions can be quashed, potentially triggering a retrial.
    • If the CCRC does not refer the case, judicial review in the High Court is still a remote possibility. (10:20–13:46)
  • Key Quote: “The battle in this case is the Court of Appeal... their only decision that they have to make, boil it all the way down, is, are these convictions safe?” – Mark MacDonald (10:20)
• The Role of Experts: Expert testimony (or its absence at trial) is central to the appeal.
  • MacDonald: “The starting point with the whole of this trial is that it was based around a hypothesis. So no direct evidence. No one saw her do anything wrong. The hypothesis was given by the experts.” (14:21)
  • Three types of experts now involved: superior to those at trial, those raising new evidence, and those from unrepresented disciplines (esp. statisticians).

---

3. Challenges to Forensic Evidence and Prosecution Narrative

• Critique of Expert Testimony: MacDonald describes inconsistencies and post-trial media statements by prosecution experts, casting doubt on the reliability of the evidence.
  • Mark MacDonald: “The prosecution expert witness ... in some of those interviews, he said things that are inconsistent with what was said before the jury. So that's gone in [the appeal].” (15:27)
• Unpaid Experts: All defense experts have worked pro bono due to lack of resources. (17:04)
• Focus on Insulin Cases: While the prosecution held the “insulin deaths” as the “smoking gun,” MacDonald has challenged every pillar of evidence, revealing issues with testing reliability.
  • “I’ve dismantled every single element. But here, says the prosecution, this is the smoking gun, the insulin cases … Now we've looked at them, we can see why [they're not reliable].” – Mark MacDonald (19:11–21:03)
  • Seven-expert joint report highlights major flaws in hypoglycemia and insulin testing evidence.

---

4. Systemic Failures Over Individual Guilt

• Alternative Explanation: MacDonald contends the real issue is not murder, but a hospital system failing under resource strain.
  • “Here, no crime has been committed ... what there was is a systemic failing of a unit that was taking babies that were too sick for that unit and shouldn't have been on that unit that was overworked, overstressed, under resourced.” – Mark MacDonald (21:17)
• The Whistleblower Hypothesis: Some believe Letby was targeted after raising concerns about the hospital, fitting a broader NHS pattern of retaliation against whistleblowers.
  • “Lucy, let me epitomizes everything that's gone wrong in our National Health Service … our labor units are dangerous, our neonatal units are dangerous. Not all of them, but many of them. And people won't accept it.” – Mark MacDonald (23:46)

---

5. Hopes for Overturning the Conviction

• MacDonald remains hopeful: “Lucy Letby will be free.” (24:46)
• He cites the unprecedented number and caliber of experts raising concern about the trial: “I've never seen more expert, most national and international expert come forward... this is a blatant miscarriage of justice.” (24:50)

---

6. Political Pressure and the Role of Parliament

• Sir David Davis MP as “Mr. Miscarriage of Justice” (29:27)
  • Initially accepted the “monster nurse” narrative until reading critical reportage and hearing from a range of experts.
  • None argued “she’s innocent,” but all questioned the evidence in the area of their expertise.
  • Davis: “You had this trial resting on a dozen pillars ... each of those pillars being knocked down by the most authoritative person in the country on that subject. That was far more persuasive … than if somebody rang up she's innocent.” (31:36)
• Dispassionate Appraisal:
  • Doesn’t visit Letby in prison—avoids “emotionality.” Searched painstakingly for a “slam dunk” of guilt in trial records, but found none.
  • Davis: “There’s no evidence for any of the murders or so called attempted murders... if you had taken all 14, 15 cases and tried them independently, there wouldn’t have been a single conviction. Because this is built on an accumulation... a cascade which turns into a confirmatory bias.” (36:16)

---

7. Systemic Policy Implications for UK Governance

Sir David Davis outlines four major policy areas put under the spotlight by the Letby case:

1. Police Procedure

   • Serious medical homicides cases should be handled by specialist national units, not local forces, to avoid parochial errors and bias. (37:50)

2. Expert Witnesses

   • Concern over experts becoming advocates for their side; calls for proposal from a 2011 Law Commission report (never adopted) to be made law.
   • “Experts don’t win or lose. In fact, if they start thinking about winning or losing, they should be disqualified from the case.” – Sir David Davis MP (38:44)

3. Appeal Process Problems

   • The appeal court system prioritizes “the dignity of the law” over correcting miscarriages, per historic legal doctrine—something Davis finds “anathema.” (39:30–40:25)

4. Failure of the NHS to Self-Correct

   • NHS and hospitals have a pattern of misclassifying deaths to avoid accountability.
   • “Hospitals misclassify deaths in order to avoid embarrassment ... if the baby dies maybe within 36 hours after her birthday, they will often misclassify that as a stillbirth.” (41:02)
   • Suggests a no-fault aviation-style system for investigating and preventing errors in hospitals. (42:06)

---

8. Human Cost and Gendered Concerns in Wrongful Convictions

• Discussion on the personal toll Letby faces as a young woman in prison—emphasizing lost years for family and childbearing.
  • “For me, the measure of success or failure on this is not winning. It's winning early enough for her to recover some of her life.” – Sir David Davis MP (44:14)
  • Amanda Knox notes how rare it is for advocates to recognize wrongful conviction’s unique impact on women. (44:16)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Legal Tradition:
  “A wall of certainty looking down. And I kept thinking a system this confident in its own history is a system that finds it very hard to say it got something wrong.” – Amanda Knox (05:05)
• On Multiple Pillars of Evidence:
  “You had this trial resting on a dozen pillars ... each of those pillars being knocked down by the most authoritative person in the country on that subject.” – Sir David Davis MP (31:36)
• On Confirmatory Bias:
  “Because this is built on an accumulation, a cascade, a cascade which turns into a confirmatory bias.” – Sir David Davis MP (36:16)
• On Whistleblowers and NHS:
  “There are doctors being sat for speaking out, there are nurses being sacked for speaking out. We have a real problem and they're not being protected.” – Mark MacDonald (23:46)
• On Hope for Freedom:
  “Lucy Letby will be free ... Because I have never seen more expert, most national and international expert come forward and say ... this is a blatant miscarriage justice. She’s innocent.” – Mark MacDonald (24:46)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Traditional English Legal System & Belonging: 02:45–05:18
• Letby’s Appeal Pathways (with Mark MacDonald): 10:02–13:46
• The Importance of Experts and Evidence Issues: 14:05–21:03
• Whistleblowing, NHS Failures, and Systemic Mistakes: 21:17–24:39
• Political Perspective, Sir David Davis MP: 28:31–44:39
• Policy Implications for Law & NHS: 37:26–43:22
• Personal Cost, Gender Focus (Letby’s Future): 44:14–44:54

---

Tone & Language

The episode is investigative, cerebral, and empathetic—balancing legal analysis with human interests. Amanda Knox brings a tone of curiosity and skepticism, carefully unpacking both facts and deeper biases, while guests MacDonald and Davis are measured but passionate about challenging the establishment and highlighting possible injustices.

---

For More

• Next Episode Teaser: Amanda Knox will visit Chester and examine whistleblowing in the NHS, recognizing that Lucy Letby is not the only person to have raised alarms about conditions at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

---

Transcript

[Amanda Knox]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Guaranteed Human Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities, so do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Mint Mobile Ad Voice]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan opt and fees extra. See full [e-mail] here's another mouthwatering recipe

[Marukan Rice Vinegar Ad Voice]

idea from Maracon the world's finest rice vinegar. Try a Morrican hot chicken sandwich with pickled cucumbers made with chilies, garlic and the vibrant, zesty flavor of Morakan Genuine Brewed Rice Vinegar. Or go sweet and savory with Morakan Seasoned Gourmet, a flavor bomb for veggies and grilled proteins. Get the green label for Genuine Brewed or the orange label for Seasoned Gourmet. Then check out ricevinegar.com for more delicious R recipes because the food you love is better with Marcon.

[Amanda Knox]

Your social media feed delivers plenty of advice, but it doesn't know you. It doesn't ask questions. It doesn't give physical exams or order tests doctors do. At the American Medical association, we believe the best care starts with a real conversation with someone who understands the science and your unique health. So stay curious. Ask questions. But when it's time to make decisions, make them with a doctor. Learn more at amahealth versus hype.org that's amahealthvshipe.org I admit it.

[Wix Ad Voice]

I'm a control freak. Luckily, the folks at WIX get it. That's why they created Wix Harmony. It's an AI website builder for people just like me. It lets you create any type of website super fast, but stay in control of every detail. You can even choose whether to use AI or click and edit things yourself until your website actually feels like you. Try it for [e-mail] that's wix.com Harmony

[HomeServe Ad Voice]

A burst pipe? A dead water heater? The AC calling it quits. Who do you call? HomeServe is an easy way to handle unexpected home repairs with plans covering stuff basic homeowners insurance usually won't. Instead of scrambling for a contractor, you make one call to get the repair process started. Join the millions of customers who trust HomeServe right now. Go to HomeServe.com podcast for 50% less your first year. That's HomeServe.com podcast savings compared to renewal price void in Florida.

[Mark MacDonald]

So I'll walk you on and I'll show you the actual inn inside. It starts off in Lincoln's Inn. So this is Lincoln's Inn that we're about to enter. I think this is the oldest of all the inns, about 600 years old.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

Almost everything I understand about a fair trial I owe to a place like this. One of England's historic bar associations.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

This is nuts, guys.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

All right, so this is a huge

[Interviewer/Co-host]

room, a huge banquet hall that has

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

wood paneling with all of these, like, crests of some knightly kind.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

There's portraits of people from presumably very important people, and it looks like a cathedral.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

But I guess for food, the presumption of innocence, the right to be judged by a jury of your peers. England built all that and then it handed the blueprint to the rest of us. And you have to belong to this.

[Mark MacDonald]

Yes.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

What does that mean?

[Mark MacDonald]

So you become a member.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Okay.

[Mark MacDonald]

And you can only become a call to the bar once you've eaten so many dinners.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

That's bizarre.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

So, okay, so you take the test to become a barrister, but that's not enough.

[Rach (Johnny Pops Ad Voice)]

You have to eat food.

[Meaningful Beauty Ad Voice]

Okay.

[Mark MacDonald]

I had to eat 18 dinners.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

18 dinners.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

What is the point of that?

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

Is that to say, like traditional bar

[Mark MacDonald]

was that you didn't actually take exams to become a barrister? You learn by dining and being with people.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

You learn by belonging. That's the part that stayed with me. A system this old doesn't just hand down its rules. It hands down its instincts. Who belongs, who's reliable, who sounds right. And 600 years of that builds something beautiful and something very sure of itself.

[Mark MacDonald]

This here is a painting of all the great lawmakers throughout history. Up there is Alfred, King Alfred and Plato and sort of all the great voices throughout history is all painted on that wall there.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

A wall of certainty looking down. And I kept thinking a system this confident in its own history is a system that finds it very hard to say it got something wrong.

[Mark MacDonald]

I think the slightly unorthodox approach that I've taken to this case of playing the whole thing out in public.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Mark MacDonald]

Is something that a few parts of the bar, certain elements of the bar, would probably raise their eyebrow.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

That's why I'd come to London. Mark MacDonald is Lucy Letby's barrister. He's doing something his profession isn't built for. Making the argument out loud in public, where everyone can see it because the quiet traditional route, the one those portraits would prefer, is the one that's kept her where she is. This is Doubt the Case of Lucy Letby Bonus Episode 4 Shaking up the Establishment.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Mint Mobile Ad Voice]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] and now another mouth

[Marukan Rice Vinegar Ad Voice]

watering recipe from Maracan, the world's finest rice vinegar. How about a Maracan hot chicken sandwich with tangy slaw and pickled cucumbers? It's bold, crispy and spicy with chili, garlic and bright tangy notes. The secret? Marukan Genuine Brewed Rice Vinegar. It adds a zesty kick that elevates sauces, marinades and homemade condiments. Craving sweet and savory? Try Maracan Seasoned Gourmet Rice Vinegar, a flavor bomb delivering perfectly balanced taste. Great for spring vegetables, fresh slaws and grilled proteins. Maracan has crafted premium rice vinegar in Japan since 1649 and brewed in the US for over 50 years. Next time you're at the market, pick up a bottle of Maracan Genuine brewed with a green label or Seasoned Gourmet with the orange label. Then check out ricevinegar.com for more delicious recipes. Because the food you love is better with Maracan, the world's finest rice vinegar.

[Meaningful Beauty Ad Voice]

Have you ever wondered why some people seem to age slower? Like they figured out some secret the rest of us missed? Well, it turns out someone actually did. And it starts with a melon. Yep, a melon. There's a rare French melon that stays fresh four times longer. Fruit you and I buy at the store. Scientists discovered it produces an extraordinarily high level of a super antioxidant called sod, the kind that helps defend skin from the visible signs of aging. And get this meaningful beauty partnered with world renowned French cosmetic specialist Dr. Jean Louis Sabah to capture that melon's youth preserving power in a skincare line you can actually use every day. So if you're tired of trying products that all promise the same thing, this one is just truly different. Because it starts with something nature designed to stay young. Subscribe [e-mail] and you can try their introductory deluxe system for 25% off. You'll also get two free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. Trust me, it's the easiest way to see what this melon powered skincare can do for your skin. These days I hear about AI so often that I tend to tune most of it out. But I gotta say, WIX Harmony actually lives up to the hype. It's an AI website builder that lets you build any type type of website with AI, but still gives you the freedom to edit anything yourself. So you're not just stuck with whatever AI gives you. And you've got an AI agent named Aria that can help you out. Try it for free at wix.com harmony that's wix.com/harmony.

[Rach (Johnny Pops Ad Voice)]

Hey, it's Rach. And if you're like me, you want treats that are simple and taste amazing. And that's why I love Johnny Pops. They're deliciously made with simple ingredients and no artificial dyes. Whether it's a quick snack for the kids or a sweet moment for yourself, Johnny Pops are the perfect treat. And there's a kind deed on every stick to encourage everyone to share a little kindness. So next time you're in the freezer aisle, grab a box of Johnny Pops and feel great about what you're sharing. Johnny Pops, a better Pop for a better world.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

Sitting down with Mark at his offices, we got straight into the important business of understanding what Lucy Letby's route to release might be.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

So you talk about her getting released?

[Mark MacDonald]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Can you explain to me how that could happen?

[Mark MacDonald]

So the CCRC refers the matter to the Court of Appeal before the Court of Appeal. We have some amazing judges in this country in the Court of Appeal. I'm not just saying that because I want them to agree with me, but we do. We do have some brilliant judges. And they will put what I have put before the CCRC under scrutiny and they will test it and if it's found wanting, they will reject it. The battle in this case is the Court of Appeal. Now, the CCRC can refer the conviction to the Court of Appeal on any of the reports that I put before them or all of the reports I put before them, but they can do on a discrete issue. And when I get to the Court of Appeal, I'm going to have to argue. Well, the CCRC has said the failure to have a statistician is so important that the convictions are unsafe. But actually I want to bring in Shui and the international experts and I want to bring in this. So I want to expand it and it's up to the Court of Appeal to decide whether or not they agree with me or not, if they want to hear all that evidence. Or they could just say the whole line and then all these experts, and if that's the case, then we could have a lengthy argument in the Court of Appeal that could go on for weeks, where they hear all this evidence. And their decision, their only decision that they have to make, boil it all the way down, is, are these convictions safe? That's the test. If they say they're not safe, then

[Interviewer/Co-host]

they're quashed and she's out.

[Mark MacDonald]

No, the prosecution can then apply for a retrial. The Court of Appeal can agree, or it's called Appeal's decision as to whether or not she has a retrial. But the prosecution can apply for a retrial and it is likely that if they do apply, they will agree to let them have a retrial in front of the jury. Now, who they're going to use as their experts when it comes to retrial would be of interest, but that's their problem, not mine.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

So when does the Lucy gets out part?

[Mark MacDonald]

If there's a retrial and it goes in front of a jury and she's found not guilty, she walks out of the Crown Court. If there's not a retrial, she walks out of the Court of Appeal.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

So the court appeal before even being retried. But also there are a lot of ifs.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

What happens if the CCRC doesn't recommend it to the Court of Appeal?

[Mark MacDonald]

If they don't refer it to the Court of Appeal, I can challenge the CCRC by way of judicial review in the High Court. I have to say that applications to judicially review the CCRC don't often succeed. I've done it once, in fact, I've another nurse case. I succeeded in that. I got leave to appeal and then the CCRC took it back and said, yeah, we agree with the High Court where we look at this.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

So it's not a complete dead end if the CCRC doesn't refer it to appeal. But if the High Court, if you challenge that and you go to the High Court and they say, too bad, that's it, that's it.

[Mark MacDonald]

Nothing more.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Nothing.

[Mark MacDonald]

Mark, Sometimes I think, oh, shall I hold one of these reports back just in case? But no, they've got everything.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

And when Mark says they've got everything. He really means it. The amount of work that has gone into those reports has been immense.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Clearly, the role of the expert plays an outsized role, especially in this case. How important are the roles of the expert witnesses during her appeal, especially considering the fact that she had none during her actual first trial?

[Mark MacDonald]

The starting point with the whole of this trial is that it was based around a hypothesis. So no direct evidence. No one saw her do anything wrong. The hypothesis was given by the experts. Therefore, the quality of the experts and the evidence that they give is under a microscope. And so the experts that I have gone to and used fall into three categories, really. The first is a greater expert by far than the ones that were used at trial by the prosecution. Secondly, an identification by experts of evidence that was not put before the jury. The third is in relation to experts of a discipline, for example, statisticians, that were simply not used in the trial. So I have those experts. There is now evidence that I'm relying upon that's put before the CCRC in relation to the police investigation. It is up to the CCRC to decide whether that is something that impacts upon the safety of the conviction. So that's what I'm putting in the main prosecution expert witness has been saying quite a lot since the conviction and has given a number of podcasts and interviews. And in some of those interviews, he said things that are inconsistent with what was said before the jury. So that's gone in.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

How do you think they should conduct themselves?

[Mark MacDonald]

So an expert has a duty to the court that overrides their duty to the person who instructs them to give their evidence. So their duty is to be the Criminal Cases Review Commission or the Court of Appeal is to assist the court. And if it's a jury trial, the jury invests to come to the conclusion of what their opinion is. The juries are directed that they've got an expert opinion. It's up to them whether or not they accept it or not. They could disregard it if they wanted to. And so they're there to be independent and not to come to a conclusion as to the guilt or innocence of the individual. That's not their job. Their job is to look at the statistics, look at what was said to the jury, and then say, I don't think that they were given accurate information and this is the reasons why. And not to go beyond that and to say, and that means she's not guilty and she's innocent. That's not their job. Now, the important thing about all the experts or 30 odd experts is that not one of them has been paid? Not one penny.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

Why not?

[Mark MacDonald]

Because I got no money.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

Well, should they be in an ideal situation?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Mark MacDonald]

I mean you do a job, you expect to be paid, but I don't have any money.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

So what kind of experts does Mark have working on his CCRC reports?

[Mark MacDonald]

Neil Ayton is an incredibly experienced neonatologist, but he's also a man who's a detailed man who has spent hundreds and hundreds of hours working away at the hospital notes and the hospital X rays and expert reports and found things that other people have not been able to find, not based upon. Oh, I've got a different opinion. But hold on, you haven't included that lab result there. That's actually quite important. And here go through the whole of the transcripts and it was never mentioned before the jury. And he has, I think has become very important to this appeal system now probably also is that he's a neonatologist and one of the things that the Court of Appeal don't like is just getting another expert.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Just any old expert.

[Mark MacDonald]

Any old expert, yeah. And so he's been great from the point of view that he's uncovered things. But the hierarchy of experts starts with Shu Li and the international experts across the world. But what he's been very good at is uncovering a lot of wrongdoing, mistakes that happened before the trial and exposing them. So his reports sometimes go up to 1890, 100 pages of detail.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

I was particularly interested in how the CCRC report would deal with the cases of supposed insulin poisoning.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Why have you focused on the insulin deaths and what is there to still find out about them?

[Mark MacDonald]

I haven't focused on the insulin deaths. I focus on every death.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Okay, well, all right, I stand corrected.

[Mark MacDonald]

No, I haven't. I've challenged every single element of the prosecution case that's been put before the trial. Every element, be it the so called confession notes, be it the statistical evidence, be it the issues in relation to air embolism, be it the insulin. I've focused on all of them, I've dismantled every single element. But here, says the prosecution, this is the smoking gun, is the insulin cases because they've got these insulin results.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

Indeed they put that question to Lucy on trial.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

If these, these babies were murdered by insulin, if it wasn't you, what else could it be?

[Mark MacDonald]

In cross examination, quite robust cross examination was she conceded the issue in relation to the expert evidence that was put to her in questioning and said to her it's not criticism towards the prosecuting Council, he, he did his job and he did it very well in the way that he cross examined her. But he, he in essence said, look, do you accept that if these experts are correct, that these babies are poisoned? Yes. So who poisoned them is the issue. Said, well, I didn't poison them. So you can see the way that she was cross examined. But it was never the defence case that they accepted the results of this incident. The defence never accepted, it was never their case. And now we've looked at them, we can see why. You know, the seven expert joint report that I put in last year in relation to expert completely exposes the whole issue in relation to hypoglycemia and the assay testing and the reliability of the testing. And the report that I'm about to put in next week exposes the many issues in relation to insulin and the testimony on insulin that was given to the jury, the many mistakes that were made because there were many.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

I mean, I think this is a problem in a lot of wrongful convictions, is if it's not the convicted person, if it's not Lucy, then what was it? What is the alternative explanation?

[Mark MacDonald]

I think this is what's unique about Lucy, let me, is because in most cases you find someone has been murdered and there's a gunshot wound or a stab wound and it's who did it. Here no crime has been committed and when no crime has been committed, it's not who did it, because there was no crime.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Right.

[Mark MacDonald]

But what there was is a systemic fading of a unit that was taking babies that were too sick for that unit and shouldn't have been on that unit that was overworked, overstressed, under resourced. And issues in relation to medical care have been raised by the medical experts. Issues in relation to not having appropriate staff on the unit have been raised by the experts. And it's important to say that this actually mirrors other neonatal units in the country. It's not unique to the Countess of Chester, it's just that the Countess of Chester, they started pointing the finger at somebody, but people in the hospital said no. Senior people, senior managers said no. There's no evidence that Lucy had done something, none. But then the police were contacted and an investigation started and a press release happened. And sitting at home drinking his coffee was a man called Dr. Derry Evans, who then sent an email saying, this sounds like my type of case. Within weeks of meeting the police, and as he would say, and as he said on the podcast, I knew within 10 minutes that there had been intentional harm to a Baby. There have been post mortems clinical reviews for months, if not years and no one had identified anything. But within 10 minutes, over his coffee, Darry Evans did.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

There are many who believe that Lucy Letby is in prison because she was a whistleblower. Someone who was bullied by senior staff, challenged them at tribunal and was retaliated against to such an extent that she was accused of murder. I asked Mark about his thoughts on whistleblowers in the nhs.

[Mark MacDonald]

It's happening almost on a daily basis in our health service. There are doctors being sat for speaking out, there are nurses being sacked for speaking out. We have a real problem and they're not being protected. They're just not being protected by our system. Lucy, let me epitomize us. Everything that's gone wrong, always going wrong in our National Health Service. Our health service has been broken for a long time and nobody would admit it. Our labor units are dangerous, our neonatal units are dangerous. Not all of them, but many of them. And people won't accept it. We put our health service up on a pedestal, but it's broken.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

How hopeful are you feeling this conviction will be overturned? You think so?

[Mark MacDonald]

Lucy Letby will be free.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

What gives you that hope?

[Mark MacDonald]

Because I have never seen more expert, most national and international expert come forward and say what went wrong at that trial was so bad that this is a blatant miscarriage justice. She's innocent.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone. Paying big Wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments.

[Mint Mobile Ad Voice]

But.

[Ryan Reynolds]

But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[Mint Mobile Ad Voice]

of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] and now another mouth

[Marukan Rice Vinegar Ad Voice]

watering recipe from Maracan, the world's finest rice vinegar. How about a Maracan hot chicken sandwich with tangy slaw and pickled cucumbers? It's bold, crispy and spicy with chili, garlic and bright tangy notes. The secret Maracan genuine brewed rice vinegar. It adds a zesty kick that elevates sauces, marinades and homemade condiments. Craving sweet and savory, try Maracan Seasoned Gourmet Rice Vinegar. A flavor bomb delivering perfectly balanced taste. Great for spring vegetables, fresh slaws and grilled proteins. Maracan has crafted premium rice vinegar in Japan since 1649 and brewed in the US for over 50 years. Next time you're at the market, pick up a bottle of Morakan Genuine brewed with a green label or Seasoned Gourmet with the orange label. Then check out ricevinegar.com for more delicious recipes. Because the food you love is better with Maracan, the world's finest rice vinegar.

[Cindy Crawford]

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like, I never liked being told, oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

great at any age? Every age.

[Cindy Crawford]

That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more@meaningful beauty.com.

[Wix Harmony Ad Voice]

If you've been sitting on a business idea for a while, consider this your sign to do something with it. You can even make it official today by creating a website with WIX Harmony. Just tell WIX Harmony what you want and it'll create the whole website for you, business features included. But don't worry, you can still change anything by hand. It's your website, your call. Try [e-mail] Harmony that's wix.com Harmony hey, it's Rach.

[Rach (Johnny Pops Ad Voice)]

And if you're like me, you want treats that are simple and taste amazing. And that's why I love Johnny Pops. They're deliciously made with simple ingredients and no artificial dyes. Whether it's a quick snack for the kids or a sweet moment for yourself, Johnny Pops are the perfect treat. And there's a kind deed on every stick to encourage everyone to share a little kindness. So next time you're in the freezer aisle, grab a box of Johnny Pops and feel great about what you're sharing. Johnny Pops. A better Pop for a better world.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

Mark MacDonald believes Lucy Letby is innocent, and though it is his job to argue that point, my sense is he'd be fighting this fight regardless. I wanted to hear from someone with no brief to argue, someone with nothing to gain. So we went to the palace of Westminster, the Houses of Parliament to be exact, into the shadow of Big Ben, past armed police and through security, where an aide met us and led us up a narrow back staircase to a wood paneled office overflowing with books. Tea was poured. Big Ben chimed through a window looking down on the courtyard. And here in the Heart of the British establishment sat one of the most persistent thorns in its side. Sir David Davis, mp.

[Sir David Davis MP]

So you want to talk about Lucy

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Letby, I would love to know what initially drew you to the case, because it's not, you know, politically opportune, I might think.

[Sir David Davis MP]

My hate mails went up by a small amount, I imagine. I don't know. I mean, I never read it.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sir David Davis MP]

It is not my first rodeo. People tend to see me as sort of Mr. Miscarriage of justice, or the obverse, one hopes the sort of classical pattern for a miscarriage is that the person who turns out to be the victim of the miscarriage is hated by everybody. In the first. You must have come across this yourself.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

I don't know what you mean.

[Sir David Davis MP]

Yeah, exactly. It's hated by everybody, and so everybody else is terrorized out of doing anything about it. So my role, in many ways, is to be the icebreaker for that.

[Meaningful Beauty Ad Voice]

Right.

[Sir David Davis MP]

And you will have seen with this that once I'd spoken in Parliament and so on, once I'd said publicly various things about it, there was then a cascade of witnesses, mostly experts, but not just experts. The 19 nurses and something like that.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

Among the people reaching out to Davis was a friend in New York, the old science advisor of number 10 Downing

[Sir David Davis MP]

street he had just read the article in The New Yorker, 13,000 worder. You know the one I mean? Yep, yep. And he says, you know, this is your territory, David. You should have a look at this. It makes it look as though the case is very flawed. Didn't say wrong, he just said flawed. So I went online to try and get it. And it was suppressed by a court order, right?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yes.

[Sir David Davis MP]

So I got it another way, read it, thought like everybody else, I'd sort of accepted the monster nurse headlines. Until then, I thought, this looks worrisome at that point. No more than that, you know, it's just worrisome.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

He raises the question in Parliament, why is it that we can't read about court cases in our own jurisdiction? He wasn't trying to get an answer, he was just trying to make a point. We should be able to access this information. But very quickly, people started to take notice of Davis doubts of the Letby convictions.

[Sir David Davis MP]

And then in the next two weeks, I had 16 different people get in touch with me. Nobody was a conspiracy theorist, for a start. Not that sort of territory. They varied from, well, a whole range of expert people. The past, present, the Royal Statistical Society, the past president, the Royal College of Pediatric and Child Health Care, a Nobel Prize winner, a professor of Legal statistics, a forensics professor and so on. And all these people were saying the same thing. None of them were saying, she's innocent. They were all saying, I can't speak for the rest of the trial, but the bit I know about is rubbish. Right, so you had this trial resting on a dozen pillars of evidence, so caught, and each of those pillars being knocked down by the most authoritative person in the country on that subject. That was far more persuasive to me than if somebody rang up she's innocent.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

In most of the interviews I've done into this case, I've asked the interviewee if they think Lucy Letby is guilty or innocent. But David Davis, he wastes no time in making his position clear.

[Sir David Davis MP]

People often say to me, do you think she's innocent? And I say yes to that. Now, if all I had done is what I've just described, I would have said, I don't know. But she's not being proven guilty. That would have been my normal response. But I do say, yes, she's innocent. Now, why do I say that? I say that because I think there's a demonstrable alternative cause. And the demonstrable alternative cause is a very, very poor standard of care in this hospital.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

David Davis, Mr. Miscarriage of justice, knows the process for these kinds of cases can be long.

[Sir David Davis MP]

A typical miscarriage case for me will swallow roughly 10 years, start to finish. Right. The post office cases took 15 years.

[Mark MacDonald]

Right.

[Sir David Davis MP]

I was involved in that as well. Not actually from the complete beginning, but nevertheless, it took 15 years from the beginning.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

I didn't realize, oh, wow.

[Sir David Davis MP]

You see, my reputation is civil liberties, rule of law, limitation of the powers of the state, free speech,

[Mark MacDonald]

they become.

[Sir David Davis MP]

They all become topical again. I am Mr. Civil Liberties in this place. That's how I'm seeing. So that also lends people to come to me when they think the state's done something wrong, whether it's a legal miscarriage or an oppressive treatment of a whistleblower or whatever. I've come to view this is plainly a mistrial in the sense that a number of pieces of fundamental evidence were wrong and as such have been presented wrongly. The jury had believed them when they were not true.

[Mark MacDonald]

Right.

[Sir David Davis MP]

But I didn't know whether she was guilty of any of them, because my view, I mean, she was convicted or whatever it was, 14 cases. My view was if she was guilty of one of these cases, she's in the right place. And I was not going to invest 10 years in proving a technical mistrial. Right, right. So we tried to get hold of the transcript.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

Getting hold of the court transcripts proved to be more difficult than expected, resulting in his office resorting to cross checking the BBC live feed of the court case with detailed local reporting.

[Sir David Davis MP]

And I went through all those, right. And what I was looking for was a single slam dunk. One proof of guilt I went through and I didn't find one. Took three months and I didn't find one emotionally.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

What was that like for you? Were you almost hoping to find evidence of guilt?

[Mark MacDonald]

Nope.

[Sir David Davis MP]

No. They've got to bear in mind my sort of psyche is. I'm sort of cold blooded, analytical, vicious,

[Mark MacDonald]

okay.

[Sir David Davis MP]

But, you know, no, I would. I try to distance myself from the emotionality in these things. I've never been to see her, for example, and people say, why not? And you look her in the eye and see if she tell the truth. And my answer to that is I'm a professional, which is probably 60 psychopath. You know, if you ask them something, they'll tell you an outright lie

[Mark MacDonald]

in

[Sir David Davis MP]

a very persuasive way. On the other hand, you go and look at somebody who's been broken by the system and they won't meet your gaze and they'll be hesitant and their memory will be. And even they may even half believe their own guilt.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Sure.

[Sir David Davis MP]

Yeah. So I make it as dispassionate as I conceivably can.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

Having not found the slam dunk he was looking for, he came to a couple of conclusions.

[Sir David Davis MP]

One, there's no evidence for any of the murders or so called attempted murders. There's no evidence that a murder occurred. Secondly, I came to the conclusion that if you had taken all 14, 15 cases and tried them independently, there wouldn't have been a single conviction. Because this is built on an accumulation, a cascade, a cascade which turns into a confirmatory bias. I don't know if you saw it, but I did a speech in the chamber about two weeks ago which was deliberately focused on the prosecutorial process, the police and so on. I rather upset the head of Cheshire police.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

I had seen the speech. Sir David Davis in the House of Commons had alleged egregious failures in the police investigation. The fallout had made huge national headlines as the head of Cheshire Police retaliated against MPs comments in a public statement.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

I'm wondering if you think that this case isn't just a personal tragedy but also a political one. Is this a political case?

[Sir David Davis MP]

Well, let me change the question slightly.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

Okay.

[Sir David Davis MP]

Does it have policy implications?

[Wix Harmony User]

Sure.

[Sir David Davis MP]

The answer is an emphatic yes.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

As Sir David sees it. There are four areas of government policy which will be impacted based on this case. Some of them are already in place but have been ignored. Policy Area 1, the Police.

[Sir David Davis MP]

Police procedure is incredibly important. Prosecutorial procedure is incredibly important. We have rules today and they were in application at the beginning of the Letby case, but they were not quite so clearly stated. But we have rules today. We say if there are four suspected homicides or more, or if there's a health care involvement, it should go to a specialist unit in London which is the counterterrorism and specialist unit. So it should be done from here, not from the Cheshire and Merseyside Crown Prosecution Service. Right, so they didn't do this. So that's the first thing is the whole nexus of police and CPS obeying the rules, making sure the rules are done properly.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

This would also include making sure that confirmation bias doesn't bleed into future investigations. Policy number two, the handling of expert witnesses.

[Sir David Davis MP]

A very famous retired judge here wrote to me and he said in his experience, expert witnesses become advocates for which Everside employs them and as such they cease to be impartial experts. This is the Dowie Evans issue here and indeed the other experts here. And Dow Evans famously said at one point, I've only lost one out of 35 cases. Experts don't win or shouldn't winning or losing. In fact, they start thinking about winning or losing, they should be disqualified from the case. There is a law Commission report that came out in 2011 which we did not adopt. It should be in law. Okay, so that's point number two.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

Policy number three, appeal procedures.

[Sir David Davis MP]

There is a couple of strong feelings about this. One, that the appeal court seemed to put the dignity of the law above the individual case, the individual miscarriage. Indeed, way back when a very famous British judge called Lord Denning actually said it's better that we preserve the belief in the dignity of the law. Then we solve an individual miscarriage, which to me is anathema. Yeah, but there's that feel about it. Now. The new evidence guideline is there to prevent defense lawyers trying one set of evidence and when that strategy fails, come back, try another one. But in a case that's 10 months long, there's 15 babies, you know, with vast numbers of doctors and nurses and God knows what else. I can understand why it's there, but it's a problem. And it's one of the reasons the ccrc, which has to guess, it sort of second guesses them, sends few over. So that's three.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

Policy number four, the Behavior of the National Health Service.

[Sir David Davis MP]

The health service is incapable of healing itself when it goes off the rails. Now, neonatal and maternal deaths is sufficient of a cause for concern in the UK that we have a woman called Valerie Amos nominated by the government to go around and do a review of it. Right. She's been visiting various places with local scandal. One of the things she's already found she's gonna be doing it six months is that hospitals misclassify deaths in order to avoid embarrassment.

[Cindy Crawford]

Really?

[Sir David Davis MP]

Yeah. If the baby dies maybe within 36 hours after her birthday, they will often misclassify that as a stillbirth. Stillbirth does not require an inquest.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Really.

[Sir David Davis MP]

But if they die in a hospital, so for example, a baby born, let's say it got pseudomonas, could die after 24 hours.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

And they call it a stillbirth.

[Sir David Davis MP]

They call it a stillbirth.

[Wix Ad Voice]

No.

[Sir David Davis MP]

And that's a recent scandal. Right. So my concern is that our National Health Service behaves like big bureaucracies everywhere. They avoid blame. They may be well intentioned organizations, but they avoid blame.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

Sir David has thoughts on how this could be done. What if hospitals behave more like airlines after a crisis? Identifying what went wrong, changing protocols and retraining accordingly. What if they change the culture to one that is less interested in scapegoating and blame into one that is focused on improvement?

[Sir David Davis MP]

When a pilot makes a mistake, there's a no fault reporting procedure. Let's imagine I reach down. Instead of putting the flaps down, I put the wheels down. Or instead of bringing the flaps up, I bring the wheels up. In whatever phase of flight and that causes a crash or causes a risk, I report that various things will happen after that. They might change the training, they might change where the knobs stand. So, for example, in an aircraft today, if you, you go to put the undercarriage up or down, there's a wheel. So it's obvious what it is. If you put the flap up and down, it's a little thing shaped like a flap. So the risk of, you know, even by feel.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Sir David Davis MP]

And location they are, they don't put them next to each other typically, and so on. So there should be a system which picks out hospitals or even individual departments that have high death rates and goes and unswervingly, unflinchingly analyses why it is Right. The doctor should not be fearing a manslaughter charge. They should be looking to improve their performance. I'm a big believer in the health service. I'm a working class boy. My entire life has depended on it. It doesn't now because I can't afford to wait. I have to go and pay for myself to get fixed. But generally speaking, I'm a big believer in it, but it's got to be fixed.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

I wanted to know more about the perception of politics in the Lucy Letby case.

[Sir David Davis MP]

Most MPs give a really wide steer around these things. This is dangerous territory. There's not much upside. You know, people, once. Once we win, which we will, albeit take years, it might take years. Once we win, people will forget. I think we'll win this. I've got high confidence in winning. The issue is when she is a woman of peace, childbearing age. We know from the infamous post it notes. One of the things you said was, I'll never get married, I'll never have children. So it matters to her. And for me, the measure of success or failure on this is not winning. It's winning early enough for her to recover some of her life. Forgive me if it's a slightly sexist comment.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

No, actually, I'm surprised that you thought

[Interviewer/Co-host]

of that because the vast majority of people who work on wrongful conviction cases, even those who are dedicated like, it doesn't occur to them that that's a special issue for women who are wrongly convicted.

[Sir David Davis MP]

One of the. One of the first things I wrote to Vera Baird about that, that's Vera

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

Baird, current interim chair of the ccrc.

[Sir David Davis MP]

I said, I don't want an answer. I just want you to take on board. This woman's life is evaporating while your organisation takes his time. So that's the test of success.

[Amanda Knox (Host)]

In the next episode, I'll be heading north to Chester to find out more about whistleblowers in the NHS and at the Countess of Chester, specifically, because, as it turns out, Lucy Letby hasn't been alone in raising the alarm about conditions at the Countess of Hospital. The case of Lucy Letby is brought to you by Vespucci, Iheart Podcasts and Knox Robinson Productions. I've been your host, Amanda Knox. This episode was written by Isis Thompson. The producer was Isis Thompson. The assistant producer was Ami Gill. Senior producer is Natalia Rodriguez. The sound designer is Chandler Mays. The theme music was written by Tom Biddle. Story editing by Natalia Rodriguez. Legal advice for the series was provided by Jack Browning. The producers at iHeart Podcasts are Chandler Mays and Katrina Norville. The executive producers were Joe Meek, Amanda Knox, Christopher Robinson, Daniel Turkin and Johnny Galvin.

[P]

You're listening to a podcast, so you're doing something else too, like maybe scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving places you like without thinking you'll get them, because that's what house hunting has become. But Redfin isn't built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents, which means when you find a place you love, you've got

[Marukan Rice Vinegar Ad Voice]

a real shot at getting it.

[P]

Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses. Get [e-mail] own the dream Ryan Reynolds

[Ryan Reynolds]

here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Mint Mobile Ad Voice]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee full [e-mail] and

[Marukan Rice Vinegar Ad Voice]

now another mouth watering recipe from Maracon, the world's finest rice vinegar. How about a Moracan hot chicken sandwich with tangy slaw and pickled cucumbers? It's bold, crispy and spicy with chili, garlic and bright, tangy notes. The secret? Morakan Genuine Brewed Rice Vinegar. It adds a zesty kick that elevates sauces, marinades and homemade condiments. Craving sweet and savory? Try Maracan Seasoned Gourmet Rice Vinegar, a flavor bomb delivering perfectly balanced taste. Great for spring vegetables, fresh slaws and grilled proteins. Morakan has crafted premium rice vinegar in Japan since 1649 and brewed in the US for over 50 years. Next time you're at the market, pick up a bottle of Morakan Genuine brewed with a green label or season Gourmet with the orange label. Then check out ricevinegar.com for more delicious recipes. Because the food you love is better with Maracan, the world's finest rice vinegar.

[Amanda Knox]

Your social media feed delivers plenty of advice, but it doesn't know you. It doesn't ask questions. It doesn't give physical exams or order tests. Doctors do. At the American Medical association, we believe the best care starts with a real conversation with someone who understands the science and your unique health. So stay curious. Ask questions. But when it's time to make decisions, make them with a doctor. Learn more at amahealth versus hype.org that's amahealthvshipe.org I'm no web designer, but Wix

[Wix Harmony User]

Harmony kind of makes me feel like one. It's an AI website builder where I just describe what I want and it builds the entire site for me with all the business tools I need. My favorite part? I get an AI agent named Aria who helps me think things through or get stuff done. Wix has been pioneering website tech for 20 years, and they've done it again. Try it for [e-mail] Harmony that's wix.com

[Amanda Knox]

Harmony this is an iHeart podcast.

[Mark MacDonald]

Guaranteed Human.