The Retrial

Summary

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Podcast Summary: DOUBT: The Case of Lucy Letby – Episode 7: The Retrial

Host: Amanda Knox
Podcast Network: iHeartPodcasts
Air Date: April 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this gripping installment of “DOUBT: The Case of Lucy Letby,” host Amanda Knox examines the retrial of British nurse Lucy Letby who, after being found guilty of murdering seven premature babies and attempting to murder seven more, faces new legal scrutiny. The episode focuses on the attempted murder charge relating to Baby K, and whether the prosecution’s main narrative — centered on Dr. Ravi Jayram’s vivid testimony — withstands deeper questioning and emerging evidence. Knox explores doubts raised about the reliability of key witness testimony, procedural flaws, media influence, and the dangerous consequences of a story so easily hardened into “truth.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: The Retrial

• Context: Lucy Letby is serving 15 whole-life sentences in the UK. Six charges from her original trial resulted in no verdict; the retrial focuses on the attempted murder of Baby K and serves as a referendum on the entire case (04:07).
• Media Landscape: Stricter reporting restrictions after the initial conviction. Despite the UK’s attempt to suppress Rachel Aviv’s critical New Yorker article, its influence grew internationally and among the UK legal commentariat (06:24–07:14).
• Public Perception: The “angel of death” narrative dominated available coverage before the retrial, constraining public and jury perspectives. Supporters of Letby began to emerge publicly, protesting her innocence outside the courthouse (08:19–08:45).

2. The Prosecution’s Centerpiece: Dr. Jayram’s Testimony

• Critical Allegation: Dr. Ravi Jayram’s account claims he entered the neonatal unit, found Letby standing by Baby K's incubator as her oxygen levels dropped — and doing nothing (03:20–03:45, 15:48).
  • Quote: "Lucy looked up and said, 'Oh, it looks like she's desaturating.'" – Dr. Jayram (03:43)
• Key Details of Jayram’s Account:
  • No alarm sounded despite the baby's oxygen falling (17:05)
  • Letby did not call for help (17:24)
  • Jayram claims only deliberate action could have dislodged the baby’s breathing tube (20:19)
• Defense Critique: Ben Myers and former nurse Michelle Warden challenge Jayram’s certainty, arguing that premature babies’ tubes can easily be dislodged and that Jayram never directly witnessed any harm (19:11, 20:41, 22:06).

3. Inconsistencies and Emerging Evidence

• Contemporary Records vs. Testimony:
  • Transfer Note (05:55 AM): States the baby had “dislodged the tube”—implying accidental, self-inflicted extubation (18:15).
  • Internal Email (Sept 2024, surfaced post-retrial): Jayram writes Letby called him for help when the baby deteriorated — contradicting his court testimony that she didn't call for help (27:42–28:16).
    • Quote: “[Jayram’s] earliest recorded piece of evidence…is completely different, black and white, different from what he came to testify about at trial.” – Reporter Clusy de Oliveira (27:48)
• Implications for Justice: Had the defense known of the email, it could have changed the nature of cross-examination and possibly the outcome of the retrial (30:14–30:22).

4. Credibility and Conflicts of Interest

• TV Deal Revelation:
  • On the eve of trial, news broke that Dr. Jayram had entered talks for a lucrative TV drama project on the Letby case, raising concerns about his objectivity (32:20–32:52).
    • Defense Complaint: “The doctor would portray himself in a particular way in a story that is being developed.” – Ben Myers (32:52)
  • The judge declined to intervene (32:56).

5. Political and Public Fallout

• Parliamentary Intervention:
  • MP David Davis criticizes the trial as a possible miscarriage of justice and demands a perjury investigation into Dr. Jayram (33:24–34:47).
    • Quote: “It touches on public confidence in the integrity of our criminal justice system.” – David Davis MP (34:01–34:41)
• Broader Concerns:
  • Journalists and lawyers voice loss of faith in the system, questioning whether the doctors' narrative was too easily accepted by investigators and whether alternative expert opinions were systematically overlooked (34:41–36:08).

6. Evidence Omitted from Court

• Alternative Explanations:
  • Davis notes alternative causes of death were available to the prosecution but not shared with the jury (36:50–37:17).
    • Quote: “There are much more likely alternative causes…the evidence was available at the time, but it was simply not presented.” – David Davis MP (36:50, 37:01)
  • Specifics include a medical error (an improperly inserted needle) that may explain at least one fatality attributed to Letby (37:41).

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:20–03:45: Dr. Jayram's core eyewitness account introduced.
• 08:19: Protests and Letby’s supporters at retrial.
• 15:48–17:24: Re-enactment of Jayram’s testimony, critical analysis of the alarm system and nurse procedure.
• 18:15–19:01: Hospital notes on tube dislodgment, opening cracks in Jayram’s narrative.
• 20:41: Michelle Warden and Ben Myers dispute Jayram’s assertion about deliberate dislodgment.
• 27:42–28:16: Revelation of the internal email contradicting Jayram’s sworn testimony.
• 32:20–32:56: TV deal discovery and its legal ramifications.
• 33:24–34:41: David Davis MP raises the issue in Parliament, formal complaint.
• 36:50–37:17: Omitted alternative causes described.
• 37:41: David Davis describes specific alternative medical explanations.

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Memorable Quotes

• Dr. Ravi Jayram: "The only possibility was that [the tube] had to have been dislodged deliberately." (20:19)
• Ben Myers (Defense Lawyer): “He’s also on record…she didn’t have her hands in the incubator. So if she didn’t have her hands…how did she actually dislodge the tube?” (22:06)
• Reporter Clusy de Oliveira: “This is the earliest recorded piece of evidence…completely different from what he came to testify about at trial.” (27:48)
• David Davis MP: “It touches on public confidence in the integrity of our criminal justice system.” (34:01)
• Guy Rowland (journalist): “They did believe those doctors...They didn’t look at the history...and then Dowie Evans walks in and...in 10 minutes over a cup of coffee, that seals it...” (35:02–36:08)
• Amanda Knox (Host): “Once you start asking what the jury didn’t hear, the focus shifts from who was present to what actually happened to the babies themselves.” (37:17)

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Analysis and Tone

Amanda Knox leads the listener through dense and nuanced legal territory, balancing skepticism with empathy for both the families of victims and the accused. The episode is deliberate and measured, giving space for legal critiques, political outrage, and the vulnerable uncertainty of “reasonable doubt.” There is a persistent thread of caution: when narrative certainty substitutes for forensic truth, justice is easily derailed.

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Takeaways

• The retrial rested heavily on one doctor’s shifting testimony, later contradicted by his own prior written record.
• Media control and expert conflicts of interest complicated the search for truth.
• Missing and omitted evidence raises the specter of wrongful conviction and systemic bias.
• The case’s ripple effects now reach UK Parliament and the broader criminal justice community, with renewed calls for review and reform.

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This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in the complexities of criminal justice, the weight of expert testimony, and the dangers of constructing open-and-shut narratives in the face of uncertainty.

Transcript

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[Dr. Ravi Jayram (Testimony)]

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[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

begin, please be aware this episode contains discussions around infant deaths and other difficult topics. Please take care while listening.

[Dr. Ravi Jayram (Testimony)]

Let's take this very slowly. Did she have her back towards the direction you were coming from? No, she definitely was facing in my direction. I can't remember whether she was directly face on or slightly angled towards the incubator, but she wasn't looking at the monitor. And as I approached, I looked up and I can't remember my exact words. I just said, what's happening? And Lucy looked up and said, oh, it looks like she's desaturating.

[Defense Lawyer / Commentator]

What kind of a story is that? You call a doctor for help and the doctor walks in and she's monitoring the baby. You go and do your doctor thing at that point.

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It's not a story.

[Defense Lawyer / Commentator]

But somehow that piece never got told in court.

[Ben Myers (Defense Lawyer)]

It couldn't have happened the way he described that it happened in court, which is hugely problematic for the prosecution.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

It's been nearly a year since Lucy Letby was convicted and sentenced to life in prison. But during the first trial, the jury couldn't settle on six of the charges, including one that led to a retrial, the charge for the attempted murder of Baby King. But this retrial is about much more than what happened to Baby K. It's about whether a story can hold up in court a second time. And in this courtroom. The prosecution's case leans hard on a single vivid account, one you've already heard, that of Dr. Ravi Jayram. That moment is he says he walked into a neonatal room in the early hours and saw Lucy Letby standing by a cot as a baby's oxygen levels fell while she did nothing it's the most direct allegation in the entire case, one that the first jury didn't find compelling enough to convict. But the Crown was willing to try again. And yet, as time passed, serious questions would be asked about that testimony. Questions about timing, about memory, about what was written down at the time. Eventually, one piece of evidence would surface. An email at odds with the account the jury was asked to to believe. I'm Amanda Knox, and from Vespucci and iheart podcasts, this is the case of Lucy Letby. Episode seven, the Retrial.

[Ben Myers (Defense Lawyer)]

Breaking news in the last hour. A nurse, Lucy Lethby, who was given a whole life sentence for the murder of seven babies and the attempted murder of six is to face a retrial on an outstanding allegation that she attempted to murder a baby girl.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

This time, the world around the courtroom is different. After the first convictions, reporting restrictions tightened. But as we saw in episode six, Rachel Aviv's article in the New Yorker would be released the month before the retrial began. The UK courts did their best to suppress anyone in the UK reading the article. But in the void left by the media restrictions, her words only rang louder. For UK columnist John Robbins, her article signified that there were finally more eyes on the case and now the retrial.

[Dr. Ravi Jayram (Testimony)]

From my perspective, there was this appetite in America to kind of understand the potential for mistakes in our justice system.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

But regardless of who was now watching, the retrial was still taking place in the backdrop of those first convictions and the dominant media story that Lucy was the angel of death. In fact, this was the only media story the court had allowed before the restrictions.

[Dr. Ravi Jayram (Testimony)]

So any kind of nuance, any kind of inaccuracies are sealed forever in the trial and the prosecution story becomes the story, the truth. Very hard to get the genie back into the bottle. And there's this one story that it is she is a serial killer.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

For the Crown, this retrial was a chance to close a loose end and to reinforce the integrity of the wider case. But those stakes cut both ways with that. What's the thing? We all agree Lucy Letby should be free. What's the thing we all agree Lucy

[Dr. Ravi Jayram (Testimony)]

Letby should be free.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

An emerging group of supporters believe Lucy Letby is innocent. One even turns up outside the courthouse holding a huge banner that reads, no justice for Lucy Letby in Liverpool is

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the proof that there are people who support Lucy Letby.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

We are proud of that and we are going to keep it up. We are not going to give up until this conviction is overturned.

[Ben Myers (Defense Lawyer)]

In every one of them.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

For them, this retrial matters because a second acquittal wouldn't undo the verdicts, but it would change the conversation, forcing uncomfortable questions about the wider case into view. Journalist Cluside de Oliveira followed the entire

[Reporter Clusy de Oliveira]

retrial and the case of Baby K. She was born very, very premature, I believe at 25 weeks in February of 2016, and she was not supposed to be born at the Countess. You know, the Countess wasn't really prepped. The doctors didn't have the right experience of dealing with like super premature babies on a constant basis in order to be able to care for the baby appropriately. She wasn't supposed to be born there, but there were concerns when the mother was already in labor of transferring her out to another hospital. There was a fear that the baby could be born in the back of an ambulance, and so the baby was born at this hospital, which wasn't qualified for this kind of birth of a very, very vulnerable baby.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

When Baby K was born, the Countess was already on edge. By that point, three babies had died at the hospital in just one month alone, in a unit that typically saw two or three deaths in an entire year. Concerns had been raised internally, reviews had taken place, but crucially, no allegation of deliberate harm had yet been made to police. Questions were circulating among doctors, patterns were being discussed, associations were being noted, but there was still no crime scene, no suspect, no police investigation. That all changed when Dr. Jayram came forward with his shocking account.

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[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

what follows is what was presented to the court read by actors.

[Dr. Ravi Jayram (Testimony)]

Lucy Letby was. We use the term babysitting, so it's when the name nurse is called away, another nurse goes to supervise. At this time, February 2016, we had had a number of unusual incidents with babies and a number of colleagues and myself had noted the association with Lucy Letby being present at these things. At this stage we'd had a thematic review, an external review which hadn't found any other obvious factors. I was sitting and I'll be very honest, I felt very uncomfortable. Objectively, you could say that was completely irrational, but I just had a feeling because of knowing what had happened before and my internal dialogue was very much, stop being stupid, get on with your work.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

Nick Johnson, the prosecuting lawyer, asks Dr. Jayram to describe what he saw on Baby K's monitor.

[Dr. Ravi Jayram (Testimony)]

What I saw on the screens was that Baby K's oxygen saturations were dropping. They're in the low 80s and going downwards next to the incubator. So sort of around where, just to the top of the A is where the ventilator sits and the pumps to give intravenous fluids. And Lucy Letby was standing at point B next to the incubator. She wasn't looking at me, she didn't have hands in the incubator. Let's take this very slowly. Did she have her back towards the direction you were coming from? No, she definitely was facing in my direction. I can't remember whether she was directly face on or slightly angled towards the incubator, but she wasn't looking at the monitor. And as I approached I looked up and I can't remember my exact words, I just said, what's happening? And Lucy looked up and said, oh, it looks like she's desaturating. What was of note is usually the monitors are set to alarm if the saturations drop usually below a level of 90% and they alarm immediately. I didn't look to see whether the button that caused the alarms to be suspended was pressed, but the saturations were going down and continued to go down. Was there the sound of the alarm? No, there was no alarm. Had an alarm gone off. That would have been my prompt to walk in. And although if you look at the layout of the unit, the alarms are loud and where I was sitting, had an alarm gone off, I would have heard it.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

The picture that the prosecution is trying to paint here is very deliberate. A room full of machines designed to scream when something is wrong. A baby's oxygen levels falling and yet no alarm, no call for help.

[Dr. Ravi Jayram (Testimony)]

Did you hear while you were either sitting at the nurse's station or your progress into nursery one, any call for help from Lucy Letby? No, not at all. I was surprised that the alarm wasn't going off, although my priority was Baby K and I didn't question it at the time. And in retrospect I was. I'm surprised that help hadn't been called. Given that Baby k was a 25 week gestation baby and her saturations were dropping.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

Dr. Jeram suspected something was wrong with Baby K's breathing tube.

[Dr. Ravi Jayram (Testimony)]

So having established that there was an issue with the tube, I removed the tube. So basically took the tube out of Baby K's mouth, connected the T piece to a small mask, which I then put over Baby K's nose and mouth and ventilated through the mask. She picked up extremely quickly. Within a few breaths, her color improved, her saturations improved and I could see that her chest was moving.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

Normally, Baby K stabilizes, but she is still critically premature. Baby K would spend the next six hours at Countess Hospital waiting to be transferred to another hospital better equipped to care for her. And here is where the stories become important in terms of what actually happened and what the jury was asked to consider. A transfer Note written at 5:55am reads, Call received from Dr. Jayram. Baby dislodged the tube and had to be re intubated. When asked about that wording in court, Dr. Jayram was careful.

[Dr. Ravi Jayram (Testimony)]

I probably framed it as the tube was dislodged.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

So what was it? Did the baby dislodge her own tube or did someone else?

[Ben Myers (Defense Lawyer)]

We know that Ravi's saying Lucy extubated the baby, dislodged the the tube, but we know that also that baby self dislodged the tube on two more occasions during that same six hour period.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

This is former neonatal nurse Michelle Warden.

[Ben Myers (Defense Lawyer)]

Babies wriggle, they move. If you think these tubes, they're tied in, they're not what's called cuffed, which is what happens in an adult or a child where it's fixed so they can very easily slip and you only need that baby to Slightly move their head and move half a centimeter.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

Although Dr. Jayarum makes an excuse for the difference between what the hospital note said and what he meant, other times he was much more certain that the tube had been dislodged deliberately.

[Dr. Ravi Jayram (Testimony)]

The nurse would have called for help. And Lucy Letby was standing by the top of the incubator. She didn't have her hands in the incubator.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

This is from an interview Dr. Jayarum did with ITV between Lucy's first trial and her retrial.

[Dr. Ravi Jayram (Testimony)]

What was she doing then? Well, she was just standing there. Now tubes become dislodged. But this was a 25 week gestation baby who wasn't kicking around, who wasn't vigorous. The only possibility was that that had to have been dislodged deliberately.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

This has never sat well with Michelle.

[Ben Myers (Defense Lawyer)]

He very clearly said the only Explanation for a 25 week gestation baby is that somebody deliberately dislodged it. Well, that's just rubbish.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

It also didn't sit well with Lucy's defense lawyer. In fact, Ben Myers would play the interview that Dr. Jerum gave in court. Here's court transcripts of that cross examination read by actors.

[Dr. Ravi Jayram (Testimony)]

Dr. Jeram. The only possibility is of the tube being dislodged deliberately. Yes. Bear in mind this interview was a long way after the events. You're telling the truth. And at that time we also knew Lucy Letby had been convicted of several charges of murder and attempted murder. We all know that. But you said the only possibility you're talking about that night. Yes. The only possibility is the tube must have been dislodged deliberately. So you'd got her. Yes. Hadn't you? Hadn't you? You'd walked in on her, hadn't you? Well, I walked in and there are a number of things that should have been happening that didn't happen that weren't happening. Yes.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

Except after all this certainty that the tube had been deliberately dislodged. Dr. Jerram would later go on to tell the court that in actual fact he didn't witness the tube being dislodged.

[Ben Myers (Defense Lawyer)]

He's also on record as saying he walked in and she didn't have her hands in the incubator. So if she didn't have her hands in the incubator, how did she actually dislodge the tube?

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

Now some have argued that Lucy Letby may have deliberately avoided being seen with her hands inside the incubator, that she was careful to cover her tracks. But the central fact remains no one ever testified to actually seeing her harm a baby. And yet Dr. Jayram's account came to be treated as if it were eyewitness evidence. A doctor from that unit later told the court at retrial that if she had been born there, she would have had access to the specialist's she needed and might have survived. But by the time she reached them, she was already too fragile and there was no chance of saving her. But for Dr. Jayram, there was one clear answer as to what happened to Baby K, and he would distill his account against Lucy Letby to three points of suspicion. One up until the point he saw Lucy at the incubator, Baby K had been stable. Two the alarms didn't sound and three

[Dr. Ravi Jayram (Testimony)]

I hadn't actually been called, or nobody had actually been called to come and look at the baby.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

Except in actual fact he had

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vary based on the way you purchase insurance and by state. Unsafe driving behaviors may increase your rate. American Family Mutual Insurance Company SI and its operating companies 6000American Parkway Madison, Wisconsin

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[Reporter Clusy de Oliveira]

Ravi Jayaram had sent an email to his colleagues.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

This is reporter Clusy de Oliveira again

[Reporter Clusy de Oliveira]

and there's this one line in it where he says where he's describing the incident and he says Lucy let be at caught and called Dr. JRM for help. When the Baby started deteriorating. So this is the earliest recorded piece of evidence of Ravi Jayaram describing the events of that night. And it is completely, completely different, black and white, different from what he came to testify about at trial.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

Unbeknownst to the defense and prosecution at the time, there was one piece of evidence that complicated the picture. Dr. Jaram had painted an internal email that would surface in September 2024. It had been written before the trials, even before the police investigation had started, and it directly went against Dr. Jerum's claim that Lucy had never called for help. The email was written when the doctors were putting together their case in a document for the police. In this email, Dr. Jayram was clear about the goal. The document, he said, was meant for the police to have their interest piqued. And he suggested the cases should, quote, highlight explicitly for these cases that ll was in attendance and in close proximity to the incubators, end quote. He stressed that this should be done, hopefully more in a stating the facts way than a subjective finger pointing way. Jeram wrote staff nurse Letby was at incubator and called Dr. Jayram to inform of low saturations. In this telling, it was Letby who called him, not a doctor acting on instinct or suspicion, as he testified in court. He also recorded that Baby K's collapse and eventual death was consistent with complications from extreme prematurity, not from a dislodged breathing tube. More striking still, in a final report that the doctors at the Countess sent to the police, the report that started the whole police investigation, this information was absent. For Sarah Knapton, science editor at the Telegraph, it was clear it couldn't have

[Ben Myers (Defense Lawyer)]

happened the way he described that it happened in court, which is hugely problematic for the prosecution.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

The problem is this email would emerge one month after the retrial was over, a retrial that Lucy would lose. Although Lucy's defense was never able to bring up Dr. Jeram's email in court, it raised a very important question whether Dr. Jayram's account, so central to the investigation and to both trials, had been fully and consistently told. There was Another detail about Dr. Jayram that was brought up during the retrial and which made those following the case even more concerned about the validity of his testimony. Because on the eve of the second trial, the Guardian newspaper reported something that took Dr. Jeram's interest in this case to a whole other level. They reported that the man, who was already well known to the UK public from his reality TV stint, had become involved in what many could imagine to be a very lucrative project. Producers were interested in making a TV drama about the Lucy letby case and Dr. Jayram was involved. This latest discovery only added fuel to a fire that started way back when Rachel Aviv's article was published. A public that had started to question the legitimacy of her conviction had only more questions. On the first day of the retrial, Lucy's lawyer requested that the judge get a statement from Dr. Jayram to ask whether he had commercial involvement with the TV production. Because to Ben Myers, this would cause a significant issue that the doctor would, quote, portray himself in a particular way in a story that is being developed. The judge declined. It's hard to understand why this was a story so compelling that it was already being shaped for the screen and. But it was an ongoing story and new questions were emerging about one of the prosecution's most pivotal witnesses. And it was that exact witness who would be shaping the way the story would be told. As scrutiny rose, production on the TV drama would eventually be halted, with creators saying that the case was more complicated than first thought.

[Ben Myers (Defense Lawyer)]

I'd be amazed if that didn't form a significant part of the Criminal Cases Reviews Commission to look back at the trial and to send it back to the Court of Appeal, because there isn't any evidence apart from what he says, and now what he says has been called into question.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

Sarah Knapton was wrong. The court would deny her appeal.

[David Davis MP]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am not in the habit of issuing trigger warnings, but I must warn the House in this case that this speech covers deeply distressing events.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

But just because the court had decided they were done deliberating the case, others were not. Conservative Member of Parliament David Davis stood up in the House of Commons and publicly demanded answers.

[David Davis MP]

But my central argument today, which comes back to what the Right Honourable Gentle asked me, is what to do about a trial which, in my view is a clear miscarriage of justice by a judicial system.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

In May 2025, Davis wrote to Mark Roberts, Chief Constable of the Cheshire Police, to make a formal complaint, calling for Dr. Jerum to be investigated for perjury. He argued that the jury in the retrial reached their verdict on the basis of misleading testimony. And that, quote, this matter goes beyond the outcome of a single trial. It touches on public confidence in the integrity of our criminal justice system.

[Defense Lawyer / Commentator]

I think I've lost a lot of faith in the criminal justice system as I've looked into this.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

For journalist Guy Rowland, the issue of Dr. Jerum's testimony was just one aspect of a case riddled with questions, questions Surrounding stories that began with the doctors.

[Defense Lawyer / Commentator]

The moment those doctors walk through the door to that police station, they're the doctors. They felt like, right, okay, we believe these doctors. And let's give them the benefit of the doubt. They did believe those doctors. They just believed what they were told. They didn't look at the history of the fact that they'd lost a grievance against this lowly nurse that they'd accused of the most terrible things. And then Dowie Evans walks in and his amazing gift at being able to spot what no one else has spotted. 10 minutes over a cup of coffee, and then that seals that the system itself seems to work in a certain way that once you're on a track saying, right, we think this is a winnable case now, it's just extraordinary how fast it went from there's no evidence here to doctors tell a story, another doctor comes in and spots murder in 10 minutes over a cup of coffee. And, right, we're off to the races. And I will stand by this. I think that the vast majority of those people really believe they're doing the right thing.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

That belief in the doctors, it mattered because once it took hold, it narrowed the frame shaping what was questioned, what was pursued and what was quietly set aside. What Guy Rowland is pointing to isn't a single missing detail. It's a pattern. A series of facts, reports and expert opinions that never made it into the courtroom at all. And once you begin to lay them out, a different picture starts to emerge. Not of what the jury decided, but of what the jury was never asked to consider.

[David Davis MP]

There is a great deal of evidence demonstrating that there are much more likely alternative causes of these tragic deaths than those put up by the prosecuting team.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

This is David Davis again speaking in the House of Commons.

[David Davis MP]

One of the problems we face is that much of the evidence was available at the time. Expert analysis of the case notes, which were there at the time, but it was simply not presented to the jury. This means the Court of Appeal.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

Once you start asking what the jury didn't hear, the focus inevitably shifts from who was present to what actually happened to the babies themselves. Because beyond patterns, beyond charts, beyond suspicions, there were detailed medical records, there were post mortems, there were alternative explanations.

[David Davis MP]

The consultant in charge took a decision to insert a needle into the abdomen to release what they thought was pressure in the abdomen, gas pressure in the abdomen. However, this was wrongly inserted into the right side of the baby's abdomen. As a result, result of this error, the needle penetrated the liver, causing serious internal bleeding.

[Narrator / Amanda Knox (Host)]

That's later on. The Case of Lucy Letby Doubt the Case of Lucy Letby is brought to you by Vespucci, iHeart podcasts and Knox Robinson Productions. I've been your host, Amanda Knox. This episode was written by Natalia Rodriguez. The co producer was Lucy Ditchment. The assistant producer was Ami Gill. Senior producer is Natalia Rodriguez. Story editing by Kathleen Goldhar. The sound designer is Tom Biddle. The theme was also written by Tom Biddle. Voice acting by Tobias Davies, Tall Leeming and Kenny Blythe. Legal advice was provided by Jack Browning. The producers at iHeart Podcasts are Chandler Mays and Katrina Norville. The executive producers were Joe Meek, Amanda Knox, Christopher Robinson, Daniel Turkin and Johnny Galvin. Thank you for listening.

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availability vary based on the way you purchase insurance and by state. Unsafe driving behaviors may increase your rate. American Family Mutual Insurance Co. SI and its operating companies, 6000American Parkway, Madison, Wisconsin

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[Dr. Ravi Jayram (Testimony)]

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[Dr. Ravi Jayram (Testimony)]

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[Dr. Ravi Jayram (Testimony)]

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[Dr. Ravi Jayram (Testimony)]

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