The Whistleblowers

Summary

Podcast Summary: DOUBT: The Case of Lucy Letby — "The Whistleblowers"

Host: Amanda Knox
Episode Date: June 30, 2026
Produced by: iHeartPodcasts / Vespucci / Knox Robinson Productions
Bonus Episode 5

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Episode Overview

This episode, titled "The Whistleblowers," delves into the seldom-discussed role of whistleblowers at the heart of the Lucy Letby case and within the broader NHS (National Health Service) system. Amanda Knox explores not only Letby's actions as a whistleblower but also draws parallels to others within the NHS who have faced institutional resistance—and sometimes retaliation—when raising serious concerns about patient safety and systemic failings. Through interviews and personal accounts, the episode interrogates how institutions may protect themselves at the expense of truth and justice, asking whether the culture of silence and denial contributed to the conditions surrounding both the Letby case and wider NHS failings.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Lucy Letby as Whistleblower

[03:17–04:35]

• Lucy Letby’s Early Warnings:
  • Lucy Letby raised repeated concerns about issues within her neonatal unit, filing Datex incident reports and a formal grievance against two senior consultants.
  • Martin Pittman (Retired NHS Consultant and Whistleblower):
    • "She raised concerns. She repeatedly put in Datex forms when she recognized significant issues. And she put in a grievance. As a junior nurse, she put in a grievance against two senior consultants. So all of those, all of those are whistleblowing events." (03:35)
  • Letby's act of confronting senior staff and winning a grievance as a junior nurse is described as unprecedented.

2. The DARVO Phenomenon

[05:23–07:16]

• Playbook Against Whistleblowers:
  • Martin Pittman describes the common institutional tactic described as DARVO: Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender.
    • "They deny the issues that you've raised, then the A is attack or accuse... then they use techniques to reverse the victim and offender... an absolutely textbook approach by NHS trusts to get rid of challenging individuals." (05:58)
  • If denial and attack fail, employers use the legal catch-all of SOSR ("some other substantial reason") to push out internal critics.
    • "They basically manufactured the belief that my position was untenable because my relationship with the trusts senior management had become untenable." (06:45)

3. Supporting NHS Whistleblowers

[07:41–08:10]

• Pittman continues to advise and console other NHS whistleblowers, emphasizing that anyone, regardless of rank, can be targeted for raising concerns.

4. Case Study: The Countess of Chester Hospital Porters

[12:34–40:47]

• Introduction of John Creighton and Tom Jones:
  • Two hospital porters at the Countess of Chester raised alarms over mortuary practices—specifically about handling of deceased bodies without following dignity, safety, or infection control protocols, and their tasks overlapping with mortuary technicians (higher-skilled jobs).
  • “We were sort of 7:00am till early hours, preparing, prepping…We used AI...sometimes it gets confused…Because the case was so contracted, there were so many different elements to it.” (13:11)
• Disturbing Mortuary Practices:
  • Regularly found bodies not properly covered or prepared, and with inadequate PPE.
  • Recount harrowing experiences, such as handling the body of a local young man after a suicide, and being asked to hold body parts during police investigations.
    • “So we managed to sort of slid him off their table onto one of ours, slid him into the fridge, shut the door.” (16:15)
    • “I just had five minutes to recompose myself. And then the phone rang again.” (17:25)
  • Concerns about being asked to unwrap and process remains, which they saw as undignified and dangerous.
• Institutional Denial and Retaliation:
  • Initial approach to the mortuary manager resulted in a dismissive attitude:
    • "He shut us down, didn’t he? Within 10 minutes." (22:05)
  • After John discovered a severed head left uncovered in the mortuary, they escalated via the NHS "Freedom To Speak Up" initiative.
    • “I had one more incident where it just sent me over the edge, which was as he’d open the fridge, everyone should be covered. It was just a head…” (23:28)

5. Whistleblowing Process and Breakdown of Anonymity

[28:09–34:42]

• Finding the "Freedom To Speak Up" initiative offered little protection.
  • "You go see them, you tell them, they’re horrified, they seem genuine…But the mortuary technician in question…realized those questions were the same ones we asked two weeks earlier." (28:48–30:45)
  • Their anonymity was breached, management retaliated by revoking access and accusing John of potential misconduct—implied as necrophilia—without evidence.
    • "So that is the reason that my access was removed, that I had something to hide. I didn't want to be discovered in a mortuary setting." (33:49)
    • Humiliation and baseless accusations followed from colleagues and management.
      • "John said he received a text message asking him if he'd been caught with his pants down in the mortuary and had to put up with jokes from other staffers insinuating that he was a necrophiliac." (36:35)

6. Tribunal & Vindication

[37:41–40:47]

• Legal Battle:
  • The case progresses to an employment tribunal, where management’s contradictory statements are surfaced under oath.
  • The tribunal rules in favor of the porters, accepting that their claims were in the public interest, that their duties exceeded their pay grade, and validating their distress and grievances.
    • “How did it feel when the judge ruled in your favor?” (40:19)
    • Tom Jones: “A complete release of pressure for over two and a half years? It was bittersweet really. I just felt like relieved.”
    • John Creighton: “I felt vindicated. The most apt thing out of the whole thing is when the judge said that we were creditable. And to me, to say that we were creditable suggests that they're not.” (40:19–40:40)

7. Emotional & Personal Toll

[40:47–41:45]

• Despite legal vindication, the ordeal badly damages their personal lives and relationships; they suggest institutional tactics (portraying them as mercenary or self-serving) persist even after the ruling.
  • “We didn’t see it as a victory. They painted a light of we’d done it for compensation, we’d done it for selfish reasons. All completely untrue.” (40:58)

8. Broader Systemic Issues and Reflection

[41:45–43:00]

• Amanda Knox draws a parallel between these local institutional responses and the grander context of the Lucy Letby case, closing with broader NHS scandal references, such as the Donna Ockendon report, and the suggestion that without whistleblowers, systemic failures will not be corrected.
  • “Reflecting on the story of these two porters, I’m struck by how much the institution fought to protect itself against a claim of poor conditions and improper policy by two whistleblowers…How in the same hospital years earlier, a small group of consultants would apparently sooner believe there’s a serial killer on the payroll, rather than dig deep into the systems, protocols and environment that could be factors contributing to their poor outcomes.” (41:45)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Martin Pittman on Lucy Letby’s courage:

  "To be brave enough as a junior nurse to submit a grievance against two senior consultants was an incredible achievement. To win that in an NHS trust was unprecedented, absolutely unprecedented." (04:08)

• On Institutional Retaliation:

  "There's this thing called Darvo ... [NHS Trusts] get rid of challenging individuals, which is what I was." — Martin Pittman (05:58)

• On the porters' emotional burden:

  “Sometimes you get situations in a mortuary setting where you never forget it. ...you have to recompose yourself. And then the phone rang again.” — Tom Jones (17:25)

• On perceived retaliation:

  “So that is the reason that my access was removed, that I had something to hide. I didn't want to be discovered in a mortuary setting. …We interpreted that as we pose a risk to deceased patients.” — John Creighton & Tom Jones (34:04–35:05)

• On tribunal vindication:

  “When the judge said that we were creditable. And to me, to say that we were creditable suggests that they're not.” — John Creighton (40:28)

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Timeline & Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:17] — Martin Pittman describes Lucy Letby as an (unintentional) whistleblower.
• [05:58] — Explanation of the DARVO tactic commonly used against NHS whistleblowers.
• [12:34] — Introduction to John Creighton and Tom Jones, the porters at the heart of the Chester hospital whistleblowing case.
• [16:15–18:04] — Descriptions of harrowing mortuary experiences, emotional impact.
• [22:05] — First attempt to raise concerns met with outright denial.
• [28:48–34:42] — Breakdowns in the NHS Freedom To Speak Up process; loss of anonymity, escalation to sinister accusations.
• [37:41] — Lawyers and tribunal involvement.
• [40:19–40:40] — Porters on their ultimate vindication after a multi-year struggle.
• [41:45] — Amanda Knox’s reflection on institutional protectionism and whistleblower necessity.

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Final Reflection

By paralleling the stories of Letby, the porters, and senior NHS whistleblowers, Amanda Knox highlights a pattern of institutions prioritizing self-protection over hard truth and safety—even if that means scapegoating or demonizing individuals. The difficulties faced by those who speak up for reform, both personal and professional, echo the central question at the heart of the series: when blame is quickly assigned—sometimes against mounting doubt—what is lost in the process, and who pays the price?

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“Whistleblowers, going forward will have to become an essential part of reversing these systemic failures. As such, they need to be encouraged and protected. That's true for the NHS and for other organizations like the Crown Prosecution Service. Getting them to take responsibility won't be easy. I know firsthand what lengths such institutions will go to to cover their own shortcomings. And so, I believe, does Lucy Letby.” — Amanda Knox (43:10)

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For updates on the case and more bonus content, follow the DOUBT feed.

Transcript

[Amanda Knox]

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[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

warning, death and descriptions of the dead. Please listen with care.

[Martin Pittman]

Lucy Letby was a whistleblower. She probably didn't realize it at the time, but she was because she recognized issues in that unit.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

This is Martin Pittman, a retired consultant, obstetrician and gynecologist and NHS whistleblower.

[Martin Pittman]

She raised concerns. She repeatedly put in Datex forms when she recognized significant issues. And she put in a grievance. As a junior nurse, she put in a grievance against two senior consultants. So all of that, all of those are whistleblowing events.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

In 2016, before there were any criminal charges, Lucy Letby took on these consultants after they had had her removed from clinical duties on the neonatal ward. She fought back with an employment grievance.

[Martin Pittman]

From Lucy Letby's perspective, and I think it's underplayed the fact that, and this is why it never got anywhere near her trial, was to be brave enough as a junior nurse to submit a grievance against two senior consultants was an incredible achievement. To win that in an NHS trust was unprecedented, absolutely unprecedented.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

There is a playbook for how whistleblowing cases often play out. And Martin's story unfolds in a very typical way. In 2019, as Lucy Letby's case was raging on, Martin was experiencing his own courtroom drama in tribunal with his own hospital when it merged with another local NHS trust, he had noticed an increase of poor outcomes on his ward.

[Martin Pittman]

I very vividly remember the moment when I decided that I had to act. A baby was injured that I know for certain that could have been avoided. And it was that happening in a close sort of temper association with a number of our very best midwives saying to me that they were so disheartened with how the unit was being run that they were going to leave.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

Out of concern for patient care and for the well being of the midwives in his department. He spoke up, calling for a meeting with the head of midwifery. From here, things got increasingly worse. A complaint was made about Martin. Martin took out a grievance against the hospital. He then got taken off the ward and isolated from his colleagues. If you've been following the Lucy Letby case, you'll recognize the parallels. Whistleblowers have a name for what they believe is happening in this process. They call it Darvo.

[Martin Pittman]

There's this thing called Darvo D A, R, V O, which is a technique that's deployed against whistleblowers. They deny the issues that you've raised, then the A is attack or accuse, so they basically accuse you of exactly what you have accused the organization about and then they use techniques to reverse the victim and offender. So the rvo, I was the victim raising the whistleblowing concerns, but they made me, or they tried to make me the offender, that I was the problem. And that's an absolutely textbook approach by NHS trusts to get rid of challenging individuals, which is what I was.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

If Darvo doesn't silence a whistleblower, there's another move in the playbook.

[Martin Pittman]

If they can't get rid of you for gross professional misconduct, and if they can't get you on an inability for you to do your job anymore, then there's this gray area, it's called SOSR or some other substantial reason, which is basically a legalese term that enables organisations to dispose of troublesome individuals. So they basically manufactured the belief that my position was untenable because my relationship with the trust's senior management had become untenable.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

When this final move was made, Martin Pittman lost his case and his job. It did not matter that he had decades of experience as a successful obstetrician or that a judge had officially recognized that he'd whistleblown in the interest of the public. Since then, Martin has become a supporter of other NHS whistleblowers.

[Martin Pittman]

I've been in contact with, tragically, lots of whistleblowers since what happened to me, just to give advice and to console people that have been through a similar thing. They cross the spectrum of different areas of professions and levels of seniority. I don't think any group of NHS staff are immune to it. I mean, the recent case of the porters in the Countess Adchester, good luck to them, because they whistleblow concerns and pursued the trust or an employment tribunal and they didn't have legal representation.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

Two hospital porters blew the whistle on improper conditions at the Countess of Chester Hospital, the very same hospital that went after Lucy after she filed a grievance in April of this year. A judge oversaw their case. I took the train from London to Chester to find out how it all unfolded. This is Doubt the Case of Lucy letby. Bonus Episode 5 the Whistleblowers.

[Tom Jones]

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[John Creighton]

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[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

I've come to Chester to visit John Creighton and Tom Jones, porters from the Countess of Chester Hospital. We take our seats in John's sky blue living room, which had become something of a situation room over recent months.

[John Creighton]

We've done all our casing here.

[Tom Jones]

Mission control, wasn't it?

[John Creighton]

Yeah, it was, yeah.

[Tom Jones]

It's like Leslie park at one point.

[John Creighton]

Yeah. So we went, we went to ground many times, didn't we? We had to say, look, we need, we need four days. And we were sort of 7:00am till early hours, preparing, prepping.

[Tom Jones]

We used AI. Ah, well, yeah, sometimes it's not always accurate, not quite right. And sometimes it gets confused, doesn't it, when you load it up? Because it was so contracted the case, there was so many different elements to it. It was quite easy to confuse the computer, wasn't it?

[John Creighton]

Yeah. So we did upgrade. We treated ourselves to the 18 pound a month Gemini.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

I mean it's cheaper than a lawyer.

[Tom Jones]

Well, we were both financially challenged. John supports a family and you know, I've got my own issues at home. So yeah, we didn't really have legal representative finance available to us.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

John is an experienced porter. This role is often called a patient transporter in the Us. But the UK version is a little broader than just moving patients. As a hospital porter in the uk, you're expected to deliver equipment and supplies where they're needed, to move patients between different sections of the hospital and to deliver deceased patients to the hospital mortuary. John moved into the health sector during the pandemic as a porter for a hospital in nearby Wrexham.

[John Creighton]

I'd worked at a different hospital and it's just a better way of doing it and it was safer and it was better for the staff.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

Wanting to travel less for work. He eventually moved to do the same job at the Countess of Chester. But here he found that the job expectations and conditions were worrying, especially when it came to moving dead bodies. And this is where things got pretty dark at the Countess.

[John Creighton]

You knew, and I'm like, are you lads all right with this? Because there's a better way of doing this.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

And describe the conditions.

[Tom Jones]

You'd be walking around the hospital doing ward transfers and AE transfers and stuff like that, and you could just sort of. You might open a door or peek behind a curtain and they're just people that just laid out. They haven't even been prepared yet.

[John Creighton]

You get the job. So you turn up to do the job and then when you get there, everyone's just got a blue curtain and then that's how they do it. Unless you'd open it, there'd just be

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

somebody dead, they tell me. Roughly 20% of the time, they'd be asked to transport a body before it was fully prepared to be moved, meaning the bodies were not covered properly in body bags, nor was appropriate personal protective equipment provided to the porters to safeguard against potential infection or splashback from the bodies they were asked to move. And beyond their own safety, there was also the dignity of the deceased to think of. But the deaths in the hospital were not the main issue for them. Their main problem was deaths in the community, people who had died outside of the hospital. Dealing with any dead body can be emotional and triggering, but these deaths were often more harrowing.

[Tom Jones]

Sometimes you get situations in a mortuary setting where you never forget it. There was a suicide. Some lad had jumped in front of a train at a nearby train station and he had a dislocated shoulder and a head injury. Where it was open, it was exposed and it was brought. It was raining that night, so the British Transport Police didn't have chance to tag him and stuff and prepare him for transport. So their plan was to get him in where it was dry and do it in the mortuary. But you've got to be there. You can't just leave them in the mortuary. You've got to supervise them being there and then, you know, wave them off and shut the door. And it was just like a security measure really. And they brought him in and he was in like a shell suit. So we managed to sort of slid him off their table onto one of ours, slid him into the fridge, shut the door.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

Tom, who was a more senior porter at the time, always found himself shaken up, particularly when younger people were brought in who had clearly come to a tragic end.

[Tom Jones]

Yeah, it just affected me, so I was trying to delete it out of my brain and put him in the fridge and I just had five minutes to recompose myself. And then the phone rang again.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

The transport police tell Tom there is an issue. The deceased young man may have been assuming another identity.

[Tom Jones]

So we need to come back and try and identify him so we can go back and tell his mum.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

Mortuary technicians should be on call. Assisting with identifying bodies is above the pay grade of a hospital porter. So Tom picks up the phone.

[Tom Jones]

I phoned the on call mortuary technician and he said, oh, I've just had a glass of wine or something and it's like 3 o' clock in the morning. And he said, just stand there, don't do anything, you'll be all right. Just supervised transport police had arrived, pulled him back out the fridge and they needed to identify him by a tattoo that he had on his shoulder and it was on the arm that was dislocated, the shoulder. And every time they tried to do, the arm just sort of flopped. He said, would you just hold his hand while we go up with the scissors? I go. Had gloves on and everything. But it's just not nice. It wasn't nice at all. So, yeah, that was my experience of just seeing things that I shouldn't really see.

[John Creighton]

I seen someone who lives 50 yards from me and you don't know and you never know who people are, of course. But as I look down and actually. And it's such a shock, isn't it, when you see someone you know. But honestly, everyone's got loads of stories.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

The staff who usually work in the mortuary would typically keep nine to five hours, leaving the porters to deal with any bodies that came into the hospital. On evenings and weekends, there is a

[John Creighton]

plea for the pathologists. They should come out. There's no ifs or buts. They should come out. If someone dies in the community, they should do it. I think it was just over generations, it Might have been, you lads couldn't do this for an hour and you know how things progress. Before you know it, they're doing it all the time. So, for instance, even at Easter, there's nobody in for four days solid, not day or night, not in.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

The pair had concerns about what they were being expected to do, jobs typically reserved for more trained positions like mortuary technicians, as well as the conditions under which they were expected to perform. And their issues were racking up. They were being asked to move bodies that had been dead for many months without proper PPE or, or any testing done to ensure the bodies weren't infectious. They were told to unwrap the deceased and remove personal effects, including jewelry and false teeth. At one point, they were allegedly taught how to wrap dead patients, using a deceased woman as a prop. They were also concerned that, given the lax procedures, their own DNA might contaminate the bodies of crime victims. This was all deeply distressing to them and undignified for the deceased. And none of this had been part of John's previous porter job at the hospital in Wrexham. So the two look into the hospital's policy on mortuary practice.

[Tom Jones]

We looked on the intranet site for any policy or standard operating procedures that were available. More policy, really, wasn't it, on the intranet?

[John Creighton]

We would want to make sure if it was our. If it was our job, then we can't gripe about it.

[Tom Jones]

But there was complete absence of it. There was nothing there. So. Rings alarm bells straight away now, doesn't it? Because there's no risk assessment being done if there's no policy written up, there's no guidance, there's no. There's just nothing.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

The response from the wider porter staff was varied when it came to attending bodies that came in from the community,

[John Creighton]

some just wouldn't do it, would they? They said, I'm not doing it. So it's goodwill, then, isn't it? So some will do it, some are reluctant, some don't mind. Some would say, I'll do it, but on my last shift at midnight, I am not doing anymore because you don't

[Tom Jones]

want to carry the memory.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

In January 2024, John and Tom spoke to the mortuary manager, encouraged by things they had been told in training.

[John Creighton]

You did have training maybe once a year. And they'd say, if you've got anything, please come and see us. We've got a good ethos, working ethos with you people. We appreciate you. So I thought it'd be easy.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

They raise their concerns, you go, you

[John Creighton]

say, I used to Work in Wrexham. This is how we do it. It's much better. It's safer. You don't do community deaths in Wrexham. They won't allow you in there. So the undertakers and the colonels, they have access and they do everything themselves. You just get a form. So you can imagine getting a form compared to this that I'm not seeing. I'm like, this is. It's not right. It's not right. So I explain and it's immediate, isn't it? You can just sense for people, we don't do that here. I'm like, okay, you don't do that. But what about. Everybody's in the body bag, even on the wards that way. Well, we don't do that here. This is Chester. This is Chester, mate. He shut us down, didn't he? Within 10 minutes.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

And this is probably a good moment to remember that word Martin Pittman used at the beginning of the episode, the word that whistleblowers use to describe their view of how they are treated. Darvo, deny, attack, reverse victim and offender. With their first attempt to bring up the issue, they were told it was a non issue, essentially deny. So the two porters decide to let it go until John has to deal with a particularly disturbing image.

[John Creighton]

I had one more incident where it just sent me over the edge, which was as he'd open the fridge, everyone should be covered. It was just a head,

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

a severed head just sitting there.

[John Creighton]

And then I said, that is it. I'm going to escalate it.

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[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

After one too many unpleasant experiences in the mortuary, John and Tom escalate the issue.

[John Creighton]

The only avenue you've got is Freedom to Speak Up.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

Freedom To Speak up is an NHS initiative that allows anyone working within the NHS to raise issues of patient safety, poor practices or bullying without fear of reprisal. An employee raises the issue with the freedom to speak up guardian or their line manager. This is then reported directly to the board and can be open, anonymous or confidential as requested.

[John Creighton]

You go see them, you tell them, they're horrified, they seem genuine. You tell them that we need to be anonymous because you know how it works. No one had any faith in it, did they, Tom, really, for Freedom To

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

Speak up when you brought up these problems, that the bodies were just left uncovered, that, you know, there was no protocol to protect you from potential infection, all of that, I imagine you brought up the emotional toll that that was having on you, but did you also bring up just the lack of dignity to the patient?

[Tom Jones]

Absolutely, yeah, yeah.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

Can you describe how that conversation went?

[Tom Jones]

One that was one of our primary things, was.

[John Creighton]

It was, yeah, it was a massive concern for me. I just didn't think it was nice and I wouldn't want it ended up saying, I don't really want to die here. As you go and you meet Freedom To Speak up, they are completely unaware of these things going on. So after an hour, you think they're actually really going to do something about this. They're serious people are genuine, aren't they? You can tell that this lady has no idea this is going on and she's going, can I have your permission? I need to go and see the CEO immediately about this. And she did. How you're coping and how does others feel? Does everyone feel the same?

[Tom Jones]

When Freedom To Speak up reported it to the Chief Operating officer she said she'd go on an investigative journey to see and try and establish what was wrong and try and get us some answers. But she mirrored almost perfectly the questions that we'd asked. Rather than say, oh, can I just come down and have a little look around? Would you be all right with that? And she would have said yes, and she could have done it sort of covertly. The mortuary technician in question didn't take much aptitude to realize that those questions were the same ones that were asked by me and John when we went in two weeks earlier.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

At this point, the pair's anonymity is blown. The anonymity that the Freedom to Speak up initiative promises. All sides now know what the complaint is and who made it. And life becomes way more difficult for the two porters as they're questioned by management about whether they'd gone over their heads to the board. Here we are at Darvo Letter a attack or accuse.

[John Creighton]

So he took the access away. Tom's didn't get taken away, but it was going to be next. So my access gets removed.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

John finds that his access to the mortuary is revoked. Though the level of work that the pair were expected to do was above their pay grade as porters, they still had some reasonable responsibilities to fulfill, such as bringing bodies from other hospital wards to the mortuary. But John, without his access, could not fulfill those duties.

[John Creighton]

I went to see my MP about this and she warned me. She actually said, this is very, very concerning. And I said, yeah, of course. She said, are you sure you want to do this? And I said, explain. She said, they come for you, yeah. You will be targeted. Are you in a union? I suggest you join one if you're not. I wasn't shocked, but I knew it. But I was shocked. My MP was telling me to watch out.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

John shows me the subject access request. This is a UK system that allows employees to access all correspondence about themselves written by other staff members, emails, performance reviews, instant messages. John requested access to all that back in June 2024. A year later, the documents arrive.

[John Creighton]

So this is where they circle the wagons were they suppressed it. Now when you get it, of course, it's horrifying. So this is the interview notes that the mortuary manager. So they've got to justify why he's done it.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

We don't know the infection status. Some have suffered traumatic deaths. I think there were five justifications put into sop that is only community deaths.

[John Creighton]

So that's where the admittance that there's no infection, the PPE and it Wasn't inadequate, by the way, which they did change it, which was one thing, but it shows the PPE wasn't right and there's no infection. So that refers to that.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

I took John off the mortuary authorized list on Net two.

[John Creighton]

So that's you swipe to get in.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

I am aware there is an escalation process to follow. To me, when someone says something like that to me, it looks like they have something to hide and not wanting to be discovered. Yes. I acted in haste then, with a logical thought perspective. I was acting out of duty of candor for the patients. That comment made me feel he had something to hide.

[John Creighton]

So that is the reason that my access was removed, that I had something to hide. I didn't want to be discovered in a mortuary setting. So he then goes on to say, when we get the.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

What does that mean, something to hide in a mortuary setting?

[John Creighton]

Well, that's a $24,000 question.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

John shows me the interview from the head of nursing who believed that the mortuary manager was acting out of concern for deceased patients when he revoked your mortuary access rather than because you raised any concerns. So she's denying that, but she has

[John Creighton]

said that the reason was he did it out of concern for deceased patients. So.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

As if you were doing something to deceased patients.

[John Creighton]

Yeah.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

So here we arrive very firmly at the final stage of Darvo, the rvo, reverse victim and offender.

[John Creighton]

So there's three phrases there that. That's the reason my access was taken away was because I. I had something to hide and I didn't want to be discovered and he did it out of concern for deceased patients.

[Tom Jones]

We interpreted that as we pose a risk to deceased patients.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

Because you brought up concerns about the conditions of deceased patients.

[Tom Jones]

Yes.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

Another manager went even further in their statement as to why John's access was revoked.

[John Creighton]

This is career threatening. This is. So our highest band manager, she said it was bordering on a safeguarding issue, why I removed the access. So there's four things there that mean only one thing to, I think, to anyone. Normal, really. The suggestion that's sinister.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

All these statements when put together are saying, without saying that they've revoked John's access, not out of retaliation for his grievances with the job conditions, but because they believe John is up to something in the mortuary, something he wants to hide, something that poses a risk to deceased patients who need safeguarding. John concluded that they were accusing him of sexual acts with the dead.

[John Creighton]

Sinister allegations. So at that point I'm wrong. Didn't. Yeah.

[Tom Jones]

In a Mortuary setting. Yeah, it's sick, really.

[John Creighton]

So that was tough to take, but at that point, I said that that's it. Well, we both did, but not until that's removed, because that's on our file. It's a grievance, so it's on your file. The plain meaning of that is risk. That's what we said. Risk. That's the word. We're a risk. If you've got something to hide and don't want to be discovered, and they've done it only out of concern for deceased patients, and it's a safeguarding issue, we're a risk.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

Tom and John weren't the only ones who concluded that. John said he received a text message asking him if he'd been caught with his pants down in the mortuary and had to put up with jokes from other staffers insinuating that he was a necrophiliac. John felt he had to take action to make sure further accusations could not be made about him.

[John Creighton]

So at that point, we said, until it's removed, I will not work with the patient, alive or dead.

[Tom Jones]

When we said we wanted the risk allegations, all these four bits of information, removed rather than removing them, because you can't remove it until you appeal. The process facilities then issued a contradictory statement that said that we weren't a risk.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

So they abruptly reversed course, requesting they go back to full duties without removing the sinister insinuations from their file. But John refused to return to full duties until those accusations were removed. And it took the tribunal to make that happen.

[John Creighton]

In the parallel world, they're saying, we never said you're a risk. I'm saying we're at tribunal. You're saying it was solely removed because there's a risk element, a safeguarding issue. You're saying it under oath. So we do this. I do it for about four months, three months, and then it gets taken off at appeal. The day it got removed, I said, I will now go back to full duties.

[Tom Jones]

It later emerged that they'd used this contradictory document to get you on an insubordination charge for not doing what they'd asked you to do.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

In November 2025. The pair appear in tribunal and give their evidence. But the court proceedings are cut short when one of the Trust's key witnesses cannot attend and the case is adjourned to April 2026. They are immediately put on leave.

[Tom Jones]

When we got all the admissions that we wanted from the chief operating officer of the Trust, we thought, there's no real reason why we should stay off because she agreed to make loads of changes that we'd asked for. So we thought, well, that's our dispute settled, so we wanted to go back to work because the one control they've got over you is your finances, isn't it? Because they just run you down with sick pay and stuff like that and you end up on half your pay and everything's still the same price in the shops, isn't it?

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

Yeah.

[Tom Jones]

So we wanted to go back to work because we both sort of enjoyed the job, didn't we?

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

When before all this happened in 2026, the judge finally ruled in favor of the porters, stating that the the respondents position about pay grade was not irrelevant. The claimants were right to set out that the risk all porters were exposed to was disproportionate to their pay grade and not something that was required in their job description. Because ward staff were not complying with the policy, they were required to carry out checks contrary to the respondent's policy. The claimant's belief that their disclosure was in the public interest was reasonable. The respondent has conceded that if the disclosures were qualifying, they would be protected because they were made to the employer. The tribunal also ruled that removal of mortuary access meant Mr. Creighton could not complete his duties. It added the first claimant's role, as we know from the job description, involved mortuary duties. How did it feel when the judge ruled in your favor?

[Tom Jones]

A complete release of pressure for over two and a half years? It was. It was bittersweet really. I just felt like relieved.

[John Creighton]

I felt vindicated. The most apt thing out of the whole thing is when the judge said that we were creditable. And to me, to say that we were creditable suggests that they're not.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

It was a long, tough road, but they got the outcome they wanted, even if it came at a cost.

[Tom Jones]

It's sad that during the course of this case it's completely destroyed both of our relationships with our wives and girlfriends.

[John Creighton]

We didn't see it as a victory. They painted a light of we'd done it for compensation, we'd done it for selfish reasons. All completely untrue.

[Tom Jones]

It was just their defenses, as if

[John Creighton]

it was a grand plan from me. So the plan was that Covid would come, I'd lose my job, I'd go and work at Wrexham and then after four years I'd transfer to the Countess. Then I'd go to Freedom to speak up who would completely cock it up. Then this guy removed my access. Then they'd say, I was a risk to deceased. And then I get compensation. Oh, what plan? I mean, Ridiculous.

[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

Reflecting on the story of these two porters, I'm struck by how much the institution fought to protect itself against a claim of poor conditions and improper policy by two whistleblowers. How the Countess of Chester would apparently sooner let people believe it might have a necrophiliac on staff rather than address reasonable safety and dignity concerns. How in the same hospital years earlier, a small group of consultants would apparently sooner believe there's a serial killer on the payroll, rather than dig deep into the systems, protocols and environment that could be factors contributing to their poor outcomes. As I Learned from Mark McDonald and MP David Davis, it's not just the Countess. Last week, childbirth expert Donna Ockendon published an explosive report commissioned by the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care into the Nottingham University's Hospital Trust. It found that that over 500 women and newborn babies had experienced potentially avoidable outcomes and deaths due to substandard care over 13 years. Whistleblowers, going forward will have to become an essential part of reversing these systemic failures. As such, they need to be encouraged and protected. That's true for the NHS and for other organizations like the Crown Prosecution Service. Getting them to take responsibility won't be easy. I know firsthand what lengths such institutions will go to to cover their own shortcomings. And so, I believe, does Lucy. Let be. That's it for this series of bonus episodes, but look out for more as the story develops. The Case of Lucy Letby is brought to you by Vespucci I Heart Podcasts and Knox Robinson Productions. I've been your host, Amanda Knox. This episode was written by Isis Thompson and Christopher Robinson. The producer was Isis Thompson. The assistant producer was Ami Gill. Senior producer was Natalia Rodriguez. The sound designer is Chandler Mays. The theme music was written by Tom Biddle. Story editing by Natalia Rodriguez. Legal advice for the series was provided by Jack Browning. The producers at iHeart Podcasts are Chandler Mays and Katrina Norville. The executive producers were Joe Meek, Amanda Knox, Christopher Robinson, Daniel Turkin and Johnny Galvin.

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Amanda Knox]

Upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] this is Julian Edelman

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[Narrator (Amanda Knox)]

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[Amanda Knox]

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