Cultural Crossroads: Istanbul to Azerbaijan

Summary

Podcast Summary: Doug Casey’s Take – “Cultural Crossroads: Istanbul to Azerbaijan”

Host: Matthew Smith | Guest: Doug Casey
Air Date: October 29, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Doug Casey’s Take follows Doug Casey and host Matthew Smith as they reflect on their recent journey from Istanbul to Azerbaijan, including time spent in “formerly occupied” territories. The conversation provides insight into Azerbaijan’s remarkable postwar reconstruction, the cultural and geopolitical crossroads of the region, the pervasiveness of propaganda, and critical comparisons to US infrastructure and society. Full of Doug’s signature skepticism and frank observation, the episode marries personal travel experience with wider cultural and economic commentary.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Arrival in Istanbul and the Changing Face of Travel (00:05–02:10)

• Doug and Matthew set the scene in Istanbul at the Kempinski Hotel. Doug reminisces about his first trip to the city in 1967 and reflects on luxury travel and his reluctance to embrace extravagance, despite age and changing circumstances.
  • “It seems shameful to consume luxuriously. But nobody gets out of here. They certainly don’t put luggage racks on hearses.” — Doug (01:57)

2. Exploring Azerbaijan: Geography and Recent History (02:12–05:21)

• Where is Azerbaijan?
  Doug discusses the country’s geography, location between the Caspian and Black Seas, bordering Iran and Russia, and notes difficulty in finding it on a map, even as an avid traveler.
• Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict:
  Doug and Matthew outline their visit to the “formerly occupied territories,” recently retaken by Azerbaijan from Armenia amid conflict and extensive destruction.
• Extreme Traveler International Congress (ETIC):
  Their visit is in conjunction with ETIC, a group focused on systematic travel, and includes rare access granted to the disputed region.
  • “To be in the club … you have to have been to at least 100 countries.” — Matthew (05:14)

3. The ETIC Group: Obsessive Travelers and War Zone Experiences (05:21–06:20)

• Anecdotes of other travelers, such as running marathons on all seven continents, underscore the adventurous spirit (and privilege) of the group.

4. Landmines and the Reality of War (06:20–07:44)

• The travelers participate in detonating an unexploded anti-tank mine, a visceral experience highlighting the region’s recent violent history.
  • “One of our group got to push the button to detonate the mine … it was a loud, sharp, shocking explosion.” — Doug (06:20)

5. Rebuilding and Transformation: Infrastructure Galore (09:02–17:57)

• Doug and Matthew are astounded by Azerbaijan’s enormous reconstruction investment in the recaptured areas. Numbers cited include 3,400 km of new highways, 45 tunnels, 447 bridges, 16 viaducts, and three airports for just $12 billion.
  • “There was more construction than I have ever seen in my life.” — Matthew (09:24)
  • “The highways and bridges, tunnels, viaducts … all that alone is only $3.5 billion.” — Matthew (17:09)
• In stark contrast, US highway spending is $235–250 billion annually, mostly for maintenance with little apparent effect.
  • “We spend 250 billion for basically maintenance in the U.S. … and this kind of leaves you, you know, traveling out of the way to places like this, (thinking) where’s all the money going?” — Doug (17:57)

6. Global Homogenization vs. Authenticity (18:16–19:55)

• Doug laments the global spread of Western brands and values, noting how Istanbul and Baku now boast the same chains and even American-style causes like Breast Cancer Awareness Month.
  • “The whole world has become like a milkshake of these cultures.” — Doug (18:16)

7. Productivity, Graft, and Decline in the U.S. (20:10–22:31)

• Extended contrast with the inefficiency, waste, and bureaucracy of U.S. infrastructure development.
  • “There is no explanation for how the money produces no results.” — Matthew (21:40)
  • “The U.S. truly is regressing to a third-world country.” — Doug (20:43)

8. Authoritarianism, Optimism, and Youth in Azerbaijan (22:58–25:49)

• Despite its placement in the lowest 10% on “freedom” indices, Azerbaijan feels optimistic and forward-looking, according to both hosts.
• Doug received an honorary degree from Qarabakh University, interacting with students he found “personable, enthusiastic, polite”—a marked difference from American campus culture.
  • “I was mightily impressed by these students. And it’s hard to get a student impression.” — Doug (25:49)

9. The Power and Pervasiveness of Propaganda (26:47–31:58)

• The hosts both experience and observe the deep impact of nationalistic propaganda, including personal stories from Azeri students about Armenian “evil”—often vague or metaphorical rather than factual.
  • “His belief is that … the Armenians killed his brothers and his sister and everyone important to him.” — Matthew (28:40)
• Memorialization of recent conflict is everywhere; public spaces, infrastructure projects, and even religious buildings are coded with symbolism to reinforce collective memory and hostility.
  • “Everything is a symbol of this victim and conquering over your oppressor kind of stuff. And it’s like the seed was planted for … future conflicts.” — Matthew (31:58)

10. Reflections on Ethnic Hatred, Victimhood, and U.S. Parallels (29:18–33:50)

• Doug draws comparisons between ancient regional animosities and modern American divisions, arguing that victimhood culture and manufactured grievances worsen social cohesion.
  • “Juneteenth is the equivalent of this memorial with 44 pillars … to put in this division.” — Matthew (33:14)

11. Observations on Modern Muslim Culture in Azerbaijan (34:52–36:34)

• Azerbaijan is described as the “least radical” of Muslim-majority countries—few veils, little overt religiosity, and a mellow atmosphere.
  • “Even in Baku did not see many mosques … there were a few women with headscarves, but not many at all.” — Doug (35:24)

12. Internal Propaganda and the Role of Foreign Guests (37:01–38:54)

• Doug and Matthew realize they were used as part of an Azerbaijani prestige/propaganda campaign, drawing significant local media attention.
  • “We were part of an internal propaganda campaign.” — Matthew (37:01)
  • “For the media … I said, this country can be more prosperous than Switzerland in a generation.” — Doug (39:07)

13. Azerbaijan as Geopolitical Crossroads (42:01–44:27)

• Azerbaijan’s ambitious infrastructure is not just about reconstruction, but about enabling the “Trump Corridor”—a transport path from Shanghai to Berlin avoiding Russia, making Azerbaijan a pivotal trade node.
  • “Ultimately, it’ll allow traffic from Shanghai to Berlin … that’s a key hub … without having to go through Russia or…the Middle East by ship.” — Matthew (42:46)

14. Travel, Change, and Homogenization (45:06–49:02)

• Doug offers a final lament for the decline of authentic, unpredictable travel, as globalization and development bring McDonald’s to even the remotest reaches.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [01:57] Doug: “It seems shameful to consume luxuriously. But nobody gets out of here. They certainly don’t put luggage racks on hearses.”
• [09:24] Matthew: “There was more construction than I have ever seen in my life.”
• [17:57] Doug: “We spend 250 billion for basically maintenance in the U.S.… where’s all the money going?”
• [18:16] Doug: “The whole world has become like a milkshake of these cultures.”
• [20:43] Doug: “The U.S. truly is regressing to a third-world country.”
• [28:40] Matthew: “[The Azeri student’s] belief is that … the Armenians killed his brothers and his sister and everyone important to him.”
• [31:58] Matthew: “Everything is a symbol of this victim and conquering over your oppressor kind of stuff. And it’s like the seed was planted for … future conflicts.”
• [33:14] Matthew: “Juneteenth is the equivalent of this memorial … to put in this division.”
• [35:24] Doug: “Even in Baku did not see many mosques … there were a few women with headscarves, but not many at all.”
• [37:01] Matthew: “We were part of an internal propaganda campaign.”
• [39:07] Doug: “This country can be more prosperous than Switzerland in a generation if you just do the right thing.”
• [42:46] Matthew: “Ultimately, it’ll allow traffic from Shanghai to Berlin … that’s a key hub … without having to go through Russia or…the Middle East by ship.”
• [45:35] Doug: “But I’ve kind of been there and done … every country’s gone to McDonald’s now, which is a big problem if you really like to travel for Gonzalez says.”
• [48:21] Doug: “It’s like they have money to spend, but quite uneasy how to do a hotel part of the way.”

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Timestamps of Interest

• 00:05–02:10: Setting the scene in Istanbul, Doug’s reflections on travel and aging.
• 02:12–06:20: Azerbaijan geography, recent conflict, and the elite travelers' club.
• 06:20–07:44: Detonating a landmine in formerly occupied territory.
• 09:02–17:57: Exponential infrastructure growth and U.S. comparisons.
• 18:16–19:55: Spreading global brands, cultural homogenization.
• 20:43–21:40: U.S. regression and governmental inefficiency.
• 22:58–25:49: Authoritarianism, optimism, and impressive Azerbaijani youth.
• 26:47–31:58: Propaganda and collective memory, from Azerbaijan to the U.S.
• 34:52–36:34: “Moderate” Islam in Azerbaijan.
• 37:01–38:54: Becoming tools of local propaganda.
• 42:01–44:27: Geopolitics and the future “Trump Corridor.”
• 45:06–48:21: Reflections on travel’s loss of authenticity, globalization’s spread.

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Tone and Takeaways

Doug and Matthew blend irreverence, curiosity, and hard-earned skepticism in dissecting their unique, government-arranged journey. They surface big questions about propaganda, group memory, and why the U.S. can no longer build what others can for less. While critical of American decline and global sameness, they nonetheless express admiration for the optimism and ambition seen in Azerbaijan—even as they recognize its authoritarian bent and the bleakness of ongoing, cyclical grievance. The listener leaves with acute, on-the-ground observations about the state of infrastructure, culture, and conflict—both abroad and at home.

Transcript

[A]

All right. Good morning, Doug.

[B]

Matt.

[A]

So where are we?

[B]

Well, it's nice to be here with you in exotic Istanbul. Certainly one of the most exotic cities in the world. And first time I came here was in 1967 as a riding variant express. But not like James Bondon third class gypsies machine in the back of the train. So here we are at the Kempinsky Hotel with Mossburgs in back of us with all kinds of ship and traffic and the Kempinski. It was a chain of hotels. I hate chains generally, but we're certainly one of the best in the world in the classic amounts, the Four Seasons, the rest of them.

[A]

I mean if you want to stay in ice or something, you have to stay in chain, don't you?

[B]

Pretty much. You pretty much do. But just because it's chain doesn't mean.

[A]

It'S to be cheap like McDonald's or Motel 6.

[B]

No, this place is beastly expensive. The it's about a 50 minute ride from the airport to this hotel and we crossed down. It was a nice car, but it was €500 and some euros for the trip.

[A]

Yeah, it was about €500 but that's because we got the VIP pickup and stuff.

[B]

I suppose we got the taxi bobblehouse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know I just get to a certain stage in life and you don't line up the red side of the menu and you want to just get to know our voice. So.

[A]

Yes, but I still have to regularly remind you to suppress your midwestern instincts to miserable your middle class values and just do it.

[B]

Exactly. It seems shame, shameful to consume luxuriously. But nobody gets out of here. While they certainly don't put luggage racks on hearses.

[A]

No.

[B]

Why bother?

[A]

So we mostly we want to talk about though where we were the last few days, which was in Azerbaijan.

[B]

Yeah, my first time in Azerbaijan.

[A]

Mine too. Yeah.

[B]

And it's. I'd say it's one of the most obscure countries not just the central Asia, but the world and don't know even though I'm long been an amateur geographer, I would be challenged to do any better than the average congressman who I always made fun of. They spent billions of dollars places on the other side of the world and you can justifiably say the city couldn't even find it on a map. But I defined myself definitely Azerbaijan. And apertures unmarked. And it's not easy to do.

[A]

You just know Caspian Sea, it's over.

[B]

There somewhere in between the Caspian and the Black Sea. And to the south of us major border is Iran. That very Close to and to the north of us. The major border is Russia and then the Armenians to the west who will I assure you that the average Asia Bhajani will say are very, very bad people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Evil people.

[A]

Yeah, we're going to talk about that. So what we had the opportunity to do, we were in Baki for a couple days, which is the capital, but we got to go to the formerly occupied territories. Yes. The big, the biggest part of the trip I guess was going there and apparently I didn't know this thing. It's a very rare opportunity to go there because Azerbaijan doesn't even allow its citizens to go there without special permission now. And Ashton. And the whole idea is that area was occupied to some extent by Armenians up until close to two years ago.

[B]

Yeah, actually less than two years ago. And the auspices for being here are with a group called ptic, the Extreme Traveler International Congress, which is run by an old friend of mine, Kolya Scori, who's a German who believes in systematic travel.

[A]

Yes. Which is not. Which is, which I didn't even really understand until before this week.

[B]

Well, I've never really thought of it before. But Kolya, like almost always the members of the group have them to almost every country and exotic non countries of the world. So I felt like I. I've been to 150 countries, but I felt like I was kind of a lone man on the totem.

[A]

Yeah. To be in the club, like I'm president's guest, Doug's, I've got to go. Otherwise to be in this club you have to have. Or this congress, you have to have been to at least 100 countries. I've only been to 50 something so I don't qualify.

[B]

That's kind of a begrudging minimum for these guys. Like one of the guys on the trip with us had you asked, you.

[A]

Asked him how many countries have you been to?

[B]

Well, he'd been to every member of the United.

[A]

Yeah, he's like all of them.

[B]

And another guy that was there had run marathons, seven marathons on seven continents in seven days, including Antarctica. So they charging a private jail to fly the marathonistas to each of the seven countries on the seven continents to do that.

[A]

It's wild.

[B]

All kinds of. All kinds of crazy stuff like that with these people.

[A]

And Kolya, the founder of the Clay, his special interest is war zones.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like he was in the Donbass a couple times. And so this Cornwall war zone or so where we were was on the scan where formerly occupied Territories as the Azerbaijanis fella kind of met the bill and we detonated an unexploded landmine while we were there.

[B]

Yeah, that was a worthwhile experience. We were about 200 yards away I'd say from it and one of our group got to push the button to detonate the mine because they say that this area as a Beijing now used to be a disputed area with Armenia is full of land mines. So they picked a choice anti tank mine for us to detonate and it was a loud, sharp, shocking explosion.

[A]

And yeah, maybe I'll try and include that E video. I have a good video of it so maybe I'll slice it in.

[B]

One. Explosion, Explosion, explosion. Yeah, yeah, that'd be good. So in this most recent war between the Armenians and the Azerbaijanis, I don't know what they say because you can't believe the casualty figures from either side but it's something like. Was it 20,000 dead soldiers on each side or something like.

[A]

Something like that. Yeah, is what they told us.

[B]

That's what they told us. And a bunch of destroyed buildings which we can't really for anything. So we drove hours and hours across this country and it's on a map, it looks pretty small relative to its big neighbors but we drove for hours.

[A]

And hours at an entire day basically.

[B]

At 80 or 90 miles an hour.

[A]

Typically on roads that are not meant for that.

[B]

No, no, it was very exciting. And our driver, we were in a convoy in Kara's and we were playing dodgy at high speed. That was part of the exotic nature of the trip. Americans are not used to that kind of stuff.

[A]

No, it was intense. It was definitely intense driving the entire way and I mean I don't usually.

[B]

Wear my seatbelt, truthful toll, but I put my seatbelt down because it kept.

[A]

Me from tumbling over. You're constantly homeowning your handrail otherwise. Yeah, I was intense. And so apparently this, the size of this territory was the size of Connecticut to put it in perspective.

[B]

And the newly acquired.

[A]

Yes, part of Azerbaijan reacquired. They would say you got to get the language right with them.

[B]

Yes, this is the homeland of ethnic cleansing and revanchism actually. So this is the Hatfields and McCoys on a global scale in this part of the world.

[A]

Yeah, there were a lot of interest. There were a lot of things that we were trying to make sense of our experience talking about it and we were the whole way. Because there's a lot of things that don't really make sense. Didn't make sense. And I Think it was starting to make some sense. Like for instance there was more construction than I have ever seen in my life.

[B]

Anyway, shock is not conspiracy. I mean 50 years ago this course was a genuine backwater. But now everything's up in dates De Baco City. I mean it's. They got a Lamborghini dealership, they got.

[A]

A Ferrari dealership, a Bugatti dealership.

[B]

Bugatti dealership of all things. And all of the cars and there are lots of. Well, we were caught in a traffic.

[A]

Jam in document the worst traffic jam I have ever been involved in in my life. For sure.

[B]

I think you could say that was bumper to bumper traffic. But it seemed like there were none of the cars were. They were all under 5 years old, all new cars, all well maintained. I consider myself to be a connoisseur. Oh, third world, third world traffic accidents. And as completely crazy as people drive here and the lanes are just advisories at best. We didn't see a single accident and I don't think we saw a single wrecked car with body damage.

[A]

No. And I thought for sure we would cause one very convoy.

[B]

It was a dodgem fight amusement park. But the degree of development in this country, I mean how many, many hundreds or thousands of kilometers of new four lane highways are they putting in?

[A]

They are putting in the very reconquered territories. A total of 3,400 km of highways.

[B]

That's really impressive. And especially since the reconquet corps reacquired is perhaps more correct to say territories. There were numerous tunnels. One of them is what, the second longest in the world, right?

[A]

The second longest, yes. I think there are a total of 46 tunnels. This is a super mountainous, very difficult to get around region.

[B]

Very difficult.

[A]

And so they're doing tunnels through it to make it so that it's a better transit core. And I believe there are 45 tunnels in total that they're building and the longest of those is 24 kilometers long. The second largest in the world.

[B]

Yeah, it's really impressive. Well that's just on the here in the or there in the region because we then flew from Bakum last night, Istanbul, which is a three hour flight. But it's between the super development in Baku and if you go the first oil production in the world wasn't in Pennsylvania, it was actually here in Baku, Azerbaijan. And there's a very famous photo of the Caspian Sea with scores, maybe several hundred oil drills really out there. And the Caspian became ultra polluted with the old technology and so forth. Well, that's all Gone. Except they call part of the city the black part of the black city. Yeah.

[A]

What is the black city? Where all this was, where all these oil wells, where it was heavily polluted. They completely leveled that whole area and now they call it the white city. It's clean.

[B]

Exactly. So. But this leads us to other things. That's that dollar. Here is this very obscure country with only 10 million people sandwiched between Iraq, Russia and their deadly enemy, Armenia. Of course, all these, all these countries are deadly enemies that each other restores. Hatfield's and McCoy's reasons.

[A]

But.

[B]

This place is developed.

[A]

It's developed in a way that's shocking. And it's like the construction. We were able to drive on only a portion of this new highway system. Much of it we could just see from, you know, from the old road that we were driving on. And you look down and it was shocking to see, actually. It was brand new highways, these huge bridge spans going through these valleys, all the tunnels and. But we were able to drive on part of it. They opened up part of it for us. We were driving the wrong way on it, you know, because it was closed and.

[B]

It, it's.

[A]

It is. In fact, it made me angry at the US and the construction efforts there. Yeah. And, you know, so I so want to dig into like, like, where are they getting the money for this? Because I thought that to do that would be. I'm thinking in American terms, it would be how. What would it take for us to build 2,000 new miles of interstate highway?

[B]

Forget about the tunnels and the bridges and everything else, but. Well, look, when there's a road work project anywhere in the US it seems to take years just to somehow repair.

[A]

And when they're done, it's like a slight improvement from the way it was before, but not really nice. No.

[B]

So where's all the money going over this immense period of time? And you looked up.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So what were the amazing numbers?

[A]

In the US annually, we spend $235 billion on highway and bridge construction and maintenance. So, yeah, that's a lot of money. You think? But. So I'm using those numbers, thinking of that, looking at what we're seeing, and I'm thinking there's no way they're funding this themselves. That's what I thought first. Where's the money coming?

[B]

Yeah, you've heard it lead you last night.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I assumed. But it turns out Azerbaijan runs a budget surplus. And in total for their entire budget for these reacquired territories is $12 billion in total, but that includes, that includes a lot. I'll tell you. That includes all the 3,400 kilometer highway, 45 tunnels, 447 bridges, 16 viaducts, three air fords, complete city reconstruction in a number of cities. Housing, schools and hospitals, all that for 12 billion. The highways and bridges, tunnels, viaducts, all that alone is only 3.5 billion.

[B]

And we spend 250 billion for basically maintenance in the U.S. happy inconvenience, eternal maintenance that you can't even tell what's going on. And this kind of leaves you, you know, traveling to out of the way places like this. Like when I first came to Istanbul as a hippie on the Orient Express. One thing that me and my two buddies noticed was coming into Istanbul, the shanty towns, the poverty, with dwellings made out of cardboard and miscellaneous materials which were huge. We were pretty shocked. But in those days, Istanbul still had a Katifa of exoticism. But now everything has been homogenized all over the world. There's McDonald, just like in Baku. There's McDonald's everywhere, there's Starbucks everywhere. There's KFC everywhere, Pizza Hut, blah blah, blah. The whole world has become like a milkshake of these cultures. Like in the, in the market, the tourist area, the old town of Baku, they sell these giant sheepskin hats that they used to wear in the old days. And you can buy them, but what are you going to do with it? Because nobody in this country wears them anymore. This country's transformed.

[A]

Yes. We're so homogenized. In fact, in this hotel right now, every employee is wearing a pink ribbon. But we asked, what's the pink ribbon for? Well, it's for Breast Cancer Awareness month, which is an American product, you know that it's so homogenized that they even.

[B]

Have that maybe women get aware of breast cancer here because the food, which is very good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But so much of it has been imported from Kansas at this point.

[A]

So it's, it's, it's wild. But I don't, I don't, I, I actually don't understand how it's possible that they can spend three and a half billion dollars for this. And we spend, and this total. And we spend 250 roughly billion dollars a year and get nothing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We can't get the Francis Scott Key Bridge fit at all. Nothing's been done in two years.

[B]

Yeah. When they've transformed a primitive country in.

[A]

Rough terrain in that two year period.

[B]

Yeah. So this is very odd since Central Asia is like a whole land of grift and the fact is, is that what this identified to us was that the US truly is regressing to a third world country. There's eight lane highways here in Istanbul and in Baku, Azerbaijan. Ten rebuilt a new highway and the old ones are falling apart. Potholes. The US is really. The airports in the US are all crappy. The airports we go through here are modern, efficient.

[A]

Here Kaku was beautiful, small, like the Montevideo airport, but beautiful.

[B]

And the one here in Istanbul is gigantic, but ultra efficient. Yeah, it's beautiful.

[A]

And it's. To me, it's just. There is no explanation for how the money produces no results. Because I understand you say, well, if you think regulations. Okay, so take 20% for regulations.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Take 20% for grafts, of course, take another half for whatever bullshit. And still where's the construction?

[B]

I don't understand it. Where's the money go? The only thing I can figure is McMansions for the people on the grift and government employees, things like that, consumption. But I don't know, it's a mystery to me.

[A]

But if we. It seems like if we had. We had $5 billion of Azerbaijani efforts in America, it would shock people.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, destruction that we'd get.

[A]

Miracles, evolve. And you know what we asked people about whether or not they were optimistic about the future. And they are. The Azerbaijanis are optimistic about the future. Why? I think it's because they look around them and they've seen progress, they see things being built, they see new things happening. Whereas you can't say that in America at all. Like nothing seems to change. If it changes, it changes for the worse.

[B]

Yeah. Azerbaijan is Freedom House and other similar organizations that monitor freedom of various types in the world all put Azerbaijan in the bottom 10%. Oh, foreign freedom point of view. It's run by Alia, who's the son of his father, who was the first dictator after the Soviet Union fell. I guess he'll have a son who might replace him. It's an authoritarian country, but doesn't. And if that was told it was authoritarian, I wouldn't have known it.

[A]

No, I wouldn't have known it. I mean, the only clue I got was when we learned that citizens were not allowed to go to the area we were going to, but the area.

[B]

That we went to, the actual reason that we went there with ETEC was that there's a new university they constructed there. And this is mildly embarrassing, I mean, but I was supposed to get an honorary degree from Garabach University, which was only formed into 2023. And the physical plant was still building it, but it's going to be large and very impressive. And there are currently 2,000 students there. And we talked to the. A lot of the students.

[A]

Yeah, we talked to lots of them. They all wanted pictures. It was actually a mob scene.

[B]

I couldn't believe. Turned out that I was a local celebrity. I didn't know what the hell, who are these kids and why do they want pictures with a strange foreigner. But. But they all did. And they were. They were personable, enthusiastic, polite. I mean, I was amazed because if we'd been on campus, on Columbia, any American universities, they would have been surly. And. Yeah, yeah, it was quite shocking. So in the little speech that I gave, I mentioned to them that things are very different than the US And I just hope that four years of being in the university, but most of them are taking science and technology, although they have a department for economics, psychology. Yeah, so I, I just mentioned to. I hope they weren't corrupt, by the way. American students have been. But I was mightily impressed by these students. And I'm hard. It's hard to get a student impression.

[A]

It was very impressive. They were all. I engaged and really interested and super helpful. I mean, unbelievable, actually. It really was. It really was. The other thing I was that, you know, we. We got. You know, when you. Wherever you're from, you don't realize the propaganda that you are subjected to. And every citizen of every country is subjected, there's no doubt. And it is much easier to see from the outside coming in, I think, than once you're in the inside. And that means that we. You are subjected to propaganda that is probably, even if you think you're on top of it, beyond your perception, you know, because it's so deep in the roots of your understanding of reality. And we got to see that there in remarkable ways.

[B]

It was remarkable because before coming here or there, because we're in Turkey now, some concerned subscriber reached out and warned.

[A]

Me, an Armenian, an Armenian, that you.

[B]

Shouldn'T go to Azerbaijan. These are very, very bad people and you're in danger and blah, blah, blah. And I wrote back and I said, well, I really appreciate your concern, but you understand, I have to check it out myself. Hey. Then the odd thing was, we got to Azerbaijan. We heard about her whole movie. Yeah.

[A]

There was this really, really great student at the university who was helping us the whole time we were there. His name was Hassan. Great kid. And at one point, when it was just the two of us, he felt the need to tell us the Armenians are bad, very bad, very, very bad. And then he said they killed my brother, they killed my sister. And I said when? And then he starts looking into his memory. You can see, you know, the accessing memories are looking up.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And he says 1993 starts for, for trying to remember the date that the Armenians came into that territory. And. And I said and this kid is obviously not that old. So I'm like 19 19. So I'm like that. The math doesn't work unless you know, probably not your brother or your sister. So I asked him the question, he said not my brother, I mean my cousin, my cousin and my grandfather. And we realized he's speaking metaphorically. And so. But his belief is that they basically killed his brother, the Armenians killed his brothers and his sister and everyone important to him.

[B]

Yeah. And so over the last few decades there have been hundreds of thousands of people. Azerbaijanis moved out, Armenians moved in, Armenians moved out. Displaced persons, no place to live and they get kicked out of their old houses and this goes on. And of course the same thing went on between the Turks and the Armenians and all of these countries have seen us between the Burma with the Rohingyas. Same area affect all of these countries, all these hoops that these stupid nation.

[A]

States.

[B]

Well and of course you know, that old. I think it's a Tom Larry song from the 60s. The French ain't the Germans, the Germans hate the Dutch and I don't like anybody very much. So it's one of the good things about being an American is that.

[A]

We.

[B]

Don'T really suffer from that too much. All except in still a lingering limited but maybe not so limited any more degree from the war of the south secession I hate to say similar work as it wasn't 1861-65. But other than that the US of course the US is going to get into that having imported large numbers of alien people. We're no longer a country with a unified similar culture. Now we're a multicultural domestic empire in the US or subgroups. Whereas to hate other groups because we're all rubbing the common trough and money in Washington D.C. so of course they're hey, these people are getting money I should have or getting money that I'm paying for. So the US is going downhill in lots of ways physically and culturally.

[A]

Yeah and one of the amazing things with this propaganda is that amongst this massive reconstruction effort that's happening all over the country they are taking great pains to make everything a memory of the victimhood that they had at the hands of the Armenians and their victory over them. Every park is like a memorial park. And.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Remember this. And remember to hate the Armenians too.

[A]

Yeah. And they're. They're building this new mosque in. Was it in Susha maybe one of the towns. I can't recall which. The brand new, like big opulent mosque that when seen from the air is shaped like a number eight to remind. Because that's the day that the territory was of the month. The territory was liberated from the Armenians. I mean, everything is like that. Everything is a symbol of this victim and conquering over your oppressor kind of stuff. And it's like the seed was planted for the next. For future conflicts.

[B]

Yeah. And unfortunately we're seeing relations between black people and white people in the U.S. i thought they were pretty good before Obama. I really did. They were.

[A]

I mean, there's the stats on this that show one of the polling agencies does. You know, how blacks. How do you consider race relations? Whites. How do you consider. And it was basically pretty much peaked out in 2007.

[B]

Yeah. So. Okay. Black people usually associated with other black people. Whites and whites. Okay. So why. But now it's. It's look like. What is that Juneteenth or whatever that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

New official holiday is. Nobody ever heard about any of this stuff. Reparations, which is ridiculous. I mean, the best thing that ever happened to black people in Africa was, you know, it was tough. But when some of them were captured mostly by Arabs and other black people and sold off to be slaves. I mean, the average black person in the US lives about 50 times better than the average black person who is distant relatives still trapped in Africa. So it's all artificial and made up to create.

[A]

Yeah. Juneteenth is the equivalent of this memorial they had with 44 pillars to represent the 44 days of the war where they recovered the territories. It's exactly that. It's like to put in this division.

[B]

In society manufacturing something that nobody ever thought about or cared about before. So anyway, further evidence of the way the US is declining radically and relative. Whether you think the US is declining in absolute terms or not. Well, technology is doing things and so forth.

[A]

It hasn't improved our roads. It hasn't made housing cheaper. It hasn't. I mean.

[B]

No. And we're still apparent the air traffic control system are still using computers from the 1960s, which is insanely dangerous in today's world.

[A]

It is so.

[B]

But clearly they're not using those kind of computers in the new airports here.

[A]

No way. Like so you have to understand, like, as Americans, you've been completely. In a way I don't think you can actually grasp until you see this highway project. I always knew, but what I see what they did, like, how extraordinary what they did. And it's not like we knew the Chinese are doing these extraordinary infrastructure projects and it's really cheap. And you go, well, it's China, so they've got the cheap labor and whatever, and they are very industrious people. And I could come up with all these rationalizations for why they could do something so much cheaper and faster and better, but I wouldn't have expected the same to be happening there.

[B]

Here, There in Azerbaijan. And the other odd thing is, of course, Azerbaijan, it has said, is the. Of all Muslim majority countries, is the least radical and the least fundamental. And I certainly believe that because even in Baku did not see many losses. And there were a few women both in with jebs covering their faces.

[A]

Yeah. But not many at all.

[B]

Not many at all. And our driver, I asked them about this. I said, have you made the hajj? Which of course is one of the five pillars of Islam that you have to do to be a good bosom, if possible, you have to make the hajj. And he said that he made it, went to Saudi Arabia and he described it to us, which is very interesting, his experiences. And when he said only about 5%, I presume, of the adult population of Azerbaijan had made brah, and that it was mellow. And the fact that everybody here in Turkey and there were Mohammed, it didn't impinge on us in any way at all. But when they come to a Western country, they tend to group together. What's the difference to bring.

[A]

Especially when they're bringing in the lowest rungs of ladders of them. I think that's the issue more than anything else. Yeah.

[B]

And they feel like they have to engage in jihad, I guess, these infidel foreigners around them. So it's just like any other group, you know, when you put them in a certain environment, they hang together, although in normal circumstances they will be just perfectly nice.

[A]

Yeah. And.

[B]

We.

[A]

One thing that was interesting and unexpected, I didn't know what to expect from the Strip at all, but it became pretty clear that we were. We were part of. Not that we actively participated in it, an internal propaganda campaign. We were. We were tailed by. I don't know, is it the.

[B]

I don't know, the media. That was unbelievable. The last day they had for a little press conference that we had, there were. I guess there Were four or five of us at the table there. But they had. They must have had eight or 10.

[A]

Media cameras, but there were six or there were at least half a dozen that were following us around even through these disputed areas. And I didn't notice them at first because they were like always be behind.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they were. They'd move and I didn't know what was happening.

[B]

I wasn't sure where they were either.

[A]

But one time we stopped and I just sat in the car and everyone on the other convoy got out and I noticed these press come over and they're taking pictures of all of us taking pictures. You know, it was. It was strange. And there are dozens of positives around it. News articles I've seen now.

[B]

Oh, is that right?

[A]

Yeah, I'll send it to you.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, every day is a slow news day. It has a version, actually. Just think we were front page stuff.

[A]

Definitely were from page stuff. It was crazy. So it was interesting to see how that's done, you know, and like, you can see there's the statements they were trying to get out of people, you know, optimism about Azerbaijan. And they really wanted probably someone to say something really awful about our media, but I don't think that happened. No, but they got, you know, positive stuff about the country and foreigners. Optimism for the country.

[B]

Yeah. And jerk. Is a good reason to be optimistic because as I told him in my parting little presentation for. For the media that said this country can be more prosperous than Switzerland in a generation if you just do the right thing. It's like, for instance, become a gold currency and deregulate the usual drugs.

[A]

That's unlikely for them to.

[B]

Unlikely it's going to happen right now they're lucky because 70% of national income or thereabouts, comes from oil production. Still, this place is a major oil producer.

[A]

Yeah. Which generates a budget surplus of about $4 billion a year, which doesn't sound like that much. Four billion in American terms. But again, they built that entire highway system for 3.5 billion.

[B]

Where does our. $250 billion a year ago. We don't get anything for it in the U.S. that's just highways. Well, I'm sure cure all this with Doge, which is disappearing as we speak.

[A]

It's gone. Yes. Nothing's happening. So it's difficult to perceive when you're in the US how bad it is compared to other places. I mean, I've been impressed in Uruguay, which doesn't have anything like oil wealth or any great income source except for individual, you know, Farmers. Yes. Yeah. Which is the state. So. But still infrastructure is built there. Like, you can see things constantly improving around you.

[B]

You can indeed. And when people see things improving around them, their income's going up, their standard of living is going up as a. Definitely here in Turkey too. That's not happening in the US as we send scores of billions a year to finance grip for rich people. These foreign couples, finance workers, which make everybody happy, I'm sure. Yeah.

[A]

And I mean, but. But still, you know, even with all that, we still. 250 billion and we get nothing.

[B]

Nothing.

[A]

We don't even need the 20 trillion we wasted in worse.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

We only need a couple of.

[B]

Just where's the money go for stuff that's supposed to be real improvements at home?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't see that. There's something really warm.

[A]

There's. There's something. It's. To me, it's as if the dollar is actually already worth the. And I'm not saying that that for it is, but as if the money was so weak, was so useless that we were having to use wheelbarrow falls to get potholes.

[B]

And the debt is so great, the spending was so great. It's all got to be financed. Printed money, which people still accept because as strong as the dollar and the dollar is as good as gold. Both ritual lies. Yes.

[A]

Total lies. Yeah. So any other combinations? Yeah.

[B]

What do you think is. We've forgotten.

[A]

Oh, well, one of the biggest things. So why are they doing all this construction in Azerbaijan? Geopolitically, there's a reason for it. And as you may remember in the news, Trump in one of the many wars that he stopped. Right. He agreed to a peace deal between Armenia and Azerbaijan, which enables a. Trump. They call it a tip. The tip, or this Trump corridor, which basically connects Azerbaijan to its exclave of Azerbaijani people that border Turkey. So there's this corridor that will go straight through Armenia into Turkey, and it basically allows. Ultimately, it'll allow traffic from Shanghai to Berlin, and that's a key hub, an entire thing without having to go through Russia or have to go through the Middle east by ship.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So I guess that's why Azerbaijan is one of the reasons why it's on everybody's radar that cares about it, which.

[A]

Is why the US Is getting involved. And Russia was pissed off about it.

[B]

Yep. And it makes me wonder. Trump says he stopped all these wars, like between Rwanda, the Congo and here in Armenia and what others. I can't even remain. Certainly not. But the only way I can figure that The U. S. Can stop these wars is either by really threatening people, which usually doesn't work too well when it comes to war situation. White painting on both sides, which is more likely because there's less man room for grift.

[A]

Yeah, there's definitely. It doesn't make sense that it would. He would walk into a room and naturally be able to resolve because clearly the grievance is still there.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. I think what both sides are thinking. There's anything you want, Mr. Trump, just give me the money and the money stops. The war is going to start again. Yeah, but.

[A]

But if this does turn out to be that major crossroads, huge amount of traffic coming from Asia to Europe, then, you know, if the countries collect a little toll on that, I mean, they get out of the gigantic.

[B]

It's a good idea. Well, I hope it works out because it's home. I love being in this part of the world, actually. And this. Istanbul's always been. It's still homogenized as it is. It's still different. It's. It's a. It's a nice. It's a nice change.

[A]

But look, it's a deeply historic.

[B]

It is, yeah.

[A]

So I mentioned it to an Armenian friend of mine. He said, you mean Constantinople, Right.

[B]

Byzantium. But let's not quibble about semantics.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So anyway, yeah, it's nice to be here, but increasingly for a lot of reasons, I figure I've just traveled out because traveling today is. Well, it's going downhill. Phone in many ways from recent times when.

[A]

But you. And you got to admit, though, this was a pretty hard travel experience as they go.

[B]

But I've kind of been there and done. I know you seen the same damn thing. And every country's gone to McDonald's now, which is a big problem if you really like to travel for. Gonzalez says.

[A]

Yeah, well, there wasn't. There weren't any McDonald's in disputed territory yet.

[B]

Well, let's illuminate too.

[A]

Yeah, it's probably in the building plant. There's enough room for McDonald's here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, it was. Been a very interesting trip for me. The biggest thing was you get to see. Because people always talk about central Asia as being important for this trade. Michael Yan always talks about routes, resources. And you could see with the infrastructure they're building there, they're planning for something. To make that huge investment into a very lightly populated area at any point is quite significant.

[B]

But Kyle was. I've got to say I was mildly disappointed perversely, at how developed Azerbaijan was because like when I went to Kazakhstan the first time, we flew into a camp, a tribal camp, in the middle of nowhere in an MI8. And there were a couple of big yurts together, and we were sitting around a table eating exotic local food. None of it inboarding. And the centerpiece was a sheep's head. And the tribal chief was on my left, and the leader of our little expedition from a mining company was on it. I was on the tribal ship's right, and the mining leader, Mark, was on his left. And the sheep's head gets passed around clockwise. So I'm so glad that it wasn't reversed, because the piesta resistance from the sheep's head is the eyeball and faithfully.

[A]

Was gone by the time I got to you.

[B]

Well, yeah, I was so glad that, you know, this kind of stuff doesn't happen so much anymore. No, it doesn't.

[A]

No. In fact, we. We stayed in a resort. The. The LAN resort, I think it is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There was weird, but gigantic and attempted that luxury. And in the middle of nowhere. It's like kind of a build it and they will come. And I think we were the only guests there.

[B]

I think just about. Yeah.

[A]

And it was almost like they hadn't had many guests at all ever.

[B]

Yeah, it's like. It's like they have money to spend, but quite an easy hunter. Do a hotel part of the way.

[A]

Yeah. And definitely a. A build it and they will come. Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, could go into the details, how to run a proper hotel, even if you've got money, but if you're not sophisticated enough to have the taste to run it the way a proper hotel like this one should be.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

So come to Istanbul if you don't mind dropping a lot of money. Stay with the Kampirsky. It's absolutely refrigerated. All right.

[A]

All right, great. Thanks, Doug.

[B]

Appreciate it.