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- [00:01]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Dr. Death the Cowboy early and ad free. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. Please note, this episode contains strong language and mature themes.
- [00:20]
Dr. Schneider
Well, hello there. Thanks for coming over and checking out this course. I'm Dr. Schneider.
- [00:26]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
As 2017 drew to a close, Dr. Schneider was facing five counts of bankruptcy fraud. But he was still putting himself out there. In fact, he'd found a new calling.
- [00:37]
Dr. Schneider
Bad conflict is a bitter distraction.
- [00:39]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
It's costly and can be destructive. Dr. Schneider had launched a new career. He wrote a book called the Healthcare Provider's Guide to Conflict, Engagement and Dispute Resolution. And he was taking that message.
- [00:53]
Dr. Schneider
Online, conflict can become ugly and frightening.
- [00:57]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
In a series of videos, Dr. Schneider appeared as an animated cartoon version of himself. White coat, stethoscope, and of course, boots.
- [01:06]
Joe Womack
Mistrust, lies, trickery and malicious behaviors breed suspicion and aggression.
- [01:14]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
In one section, he gives an example of a confrontation between a doctor and a nurse, both played by an AI Robo voice nurse.
- [01:23]
Dr. Schneider (courtroom speech and blog excerpts)
What is wrong with you?
- [01:24]
Dr. Mike Levy
Do my orders mean anything?
- [01:27]
Dr. Schneider (courtroom speech and blog excerpts)
Get your job done.
- [01:28]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
The nurse pushes back, warning that the doctor is endangering a patient. Your dose was 10 times what the patient should get. Dr. Schneider doesn't mention that he'd lost his license in Wyoming for his role in the death of a patient that involved over prescribing.
- [01:43]
Kathy Yuen
You were wrong, doctor, not me.
- [01:49]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Now, it might seem a little strange for someone so steeped in conflict to suddenly become an expert in resolving medical disputes. But Dr. Schneider was claiming to be a new man. Literally. He was now going by the name Michael Schneider instead of John. This great transformation was coming at a critical time for Schneider. He was facing up to five years in a federal prison. If he could persuade a judge or a jury that he truly changed, he might not go to jail at all. He would just ride off into the sunset.
- [02:37]
Raza Jaffrey (advertisement voice)
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- [03:37]
Raza Jaffrey (podcast promo)
In the new season of the Spy who, we go back in time to meet Benedict Arnold, the spy who betrayed the American Revolution. As America fights for freedom from Britain, Arnold emerges as one of the rebels greatest generals. But when his loyalty is pushed to the limit, he turns spy and devises a plot to shatter the rebellion and make George Washington a prisoner. Follow the Spy who Now Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can also listen to the full season of the Spy who Betrayed the American Revolution early and ad free on audible.
- [04:11]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
From audible originals. I'm laura beale and this is Dr. Death the cowboy. This is episode six Icarus. At the federal courthouse in Billings, Montana, in the winter of 2017, prosecutor Colin Rubich took his seat in a small meeting room. Facing him across the table was defense attorney John Smith. Rubich knew him well.
- [04:47]
Colin Rubich
John Smith was a pain in my butt.
- [04:50]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
He would fight for his clients, quibbling over the smallest details. Any prosecutor's nightmare. And now he'd been hired by Dr. Schneider to fight five charges of bankruptcy fraud. Rubich assumed that they were there to talk about a deal, but John's position
- [05:07]
Colin Rubich
was we were likely going to go to trial.
- [05:10]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Rubich tried to level with him. The evidence was overwhelming.
- [05:14]
Colin Rubich
John, if I were in your position, I would not want to go to trial. You've got to know that if you go to trial, a lot of the ugly facts in this case, they're going to more likely come out.
- [05:26]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Rubich looked for a sign that he'd gotten through to him.
- [05:30]
Colin Rubich
He would give the non answer, which is, yeah, well, I understand what you're saying and I'll talk to my client.
- [05:37]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
To Rubich, the exchange said everything about the man at the center of the case.
- [05:44]
Colin Rubich
It all goes back to John Schneider's inability to believe that he's ever really done anything wrong. Now, when you're in a defense attorney in that position, it's complicated, right? Because they are your boss to a certain extent, and so you are given marching orders.
- [06:01]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Rubich had once been a defense attorney himself.
- [06:05]
Colin Rubich
The biggest complication factor is your defendant. And I think Schneider was a huge complication because nothing could ever be Dr. Schneider's fault.
- [06:13]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
As the weeks went on, Dr. Schneider held firm Insisting through his attorney that he was innocent. Until Dr. Schneider had a sudden change of heart. On the 18th of April, 2018, faced with a potentially stiff sentence, Dr. Schneider pleaded guilty to one charge of concealment of bankruptcy assets. It would now be up to the judge to decide his sentence. Four months later, on a warm summer's day at the courthouse in Billings, Montana, a crowd of people filed into the gallery of the Snowy Mountains. Courtroom families, former patients, lawyers, people who had spent years waiting for this moment. Among them were Russell Monaco's family. His mom, Judy, and one of his daughters. And there was bankruptcy trustee Joe Womack, the man who'd first uncovered Schneider's fraud. All of them would be testifying at that day's hearing.
- [07:21]
Joe Womack
It made me a little nervous, but I wanted to put in my 2 cents worth to try to make sure that he got punished for what happened and that it wasn't minimized. I thought he had hurt a lot of people and I thought he had to pay for it.
- [07:37]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
They had each been invited by prosecutor Colin Rubich.
- [07:41]
Colin Rubich
I viewed this as an opportunity for the greater universe of conduct, for him to be held somewhat accountable for that. The crime that he committed was the linchpin, but it was important for the court to know and to understand all of the things that led up to it.
- [07:58]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
At the defense table, Dr. Schneider sat smartly dressed alongside his attorney. And the balance was whether Dr. Schneider would go to prison at all.
- [08:09]
Colin Rubich
My worry was that he would ask for probation and that he might receive it if the judge was not aware of all of the sort of aggravating factors that went into the case.
- [08:20]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
The courtroom came to order as Judge Susan P. Watters took the bench. Mallory Monaco was the first member of the Monaco family to address the judge. I still have all these amazing memories we shared as a family, and I wish we could have had the chance to make a lot more. She'd been 14 when her dad had died. Under Schneider's care, she was now a grown woman, 20 years old. I'm scared that since he passed away while my sister and I were so young, that I will forget the little, little memories I cherish the most. That is one of my biggest fears in life. The courtroom listened to her words in silence.
- [09:03]
Colin Rubich
As someone who has a five and a seven year old, you know that gut punches you because you just think the one thing you want out of life right at this stage in your life is to be able to see your kids grow. And she, you know, spoke about the loss of her dad and just how devastating that was.
- [09:24]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Then Russell Monaco's mom, Judy, stood at the podium. At first, she seemed to struggle to get the words out. I'm going to get through this. This is the last thing I can ever do for my son. She told the court that she believed Dr. Schneider had started hiding his money within days of Russell's death. It is now obvious to us that Russ life meant nothing to him. It's all about the money. Because of his actions, we've been put through hell as a family for the last five years. Finally, she pleaded with the judge, please, you, Honor, do not let him walk out of this courtroom without having to suffer some serious consequences for what he has done, not only to my family, but for his total disregard for the laws of this court. Then it was the defense's turn. Dr. Schneider and his lawyer had come up with their own plan. They'd filed a sentencing memo stuffed full of letters of support. His wife, Michelle, wrote about how she'd met him when she'd been working in LA as a nurse. Although he was inarguably handsome, it was his commanding personality that caught my eye. He was neither boastful nor conceited in his God given talents. Michelle told the judge that the man she knew was not the same as the one who had been depicted in the press. Instead, Dr. Schneider was, she said, a man of quiet integrity who goes out of his way to, quote, offer the strong hand on the shoulder of a concerned cowboy. There was also a letter of support from Dr. Mike Levy, Schneider's old pal from his time in LA.
- [11:10]
Dr. Mike Levy
I just wanted the judge to understand that taking him out of the practice of neurosurgery, from my understanding, would not be useful in any way and would basically detract from his life and from just medical care in general, because he's good at it.
- [11:27]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
There were letters of support and notes from patients Dr. Schneider had helped, including from his time at the VA hospital in Iowa, and the Reader's Digest article about how his skill and quick thinking had saved a woman's life after a horrible accident. But there were no letters of support from doctors or nurses in Montana or Wyoming, where he'd spent his entire career in private practice. The letters were One part of Dr. Schneider's plea for leniency. But what really mattered was what he would say on his own behalf. He rose to speak. The hearing wasn't recorded, so his words are read by a member of our production team.
- [12:12]
Dr. Schneider (courtroom speech and blog excerpts)
Your Honor, thank you for this opportunity to speak. I am so very sorry.
- [12:18]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Dr. Schneider described his upbringing. According to him, he did not start out as a middle class kid from
- [12:25]
Dr. Schneider (courtroom speech and blog excerpts)
la, I did not come from wealth and privilege. As a young, small, chubby boy in the 60s, I grew up in the rough streets of Irish Catholic South Boston at the hands of a predatory Catholic church. I was severely bullied and lived through physical and emotional abuse. In addition, my parents could be ruthless with punishment.
- [12:47]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
When we looked into this, we found a different story. Far from being raised on the rough streets of South Boston, he grew up in Hingam, a wealthy coastal enclave south of Boston. And in fact, in an interview for his presentence report, Dr. Schneider himself described his upbringing as, quote, normal, with no abuse, save his mother's occasional silent treatment. But now, as he stood in front of the judge, Schneider painted a picture that was far more gritty.
- [13:20]
Dr. Schneider (courtroom speech and blog excerpts)
I did hold deep seated scars and the seeds of anger and resentment toward anyone that I perceived a bully.
- [13:28]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
He seemed to acknowledge his feud with Dr. Biles and the anonymous letters.
- [13:34]
Dr. Schneider (courtroom speech and blog excerpts)
I let my anger and rage overwhelm my actions. I did behave very badly, escalating a conflict and then suffering the consequences of that unchecked fury.
- [13:43]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
He said he was heartbroken at Russell Monaco's death and had great compassion and empathy for all his patients. He apologized for the mistakes he made during the bankruptcy process, for sabotaging and cheating. But now, he said, that was all over.
- [14:01]
Dr. Schneider (courtroom speech and blog excerpts)
Your Honor, I stand before you today a man in transformation. I've learned valuable lessons from all this conflict and this criminal act. My priorities are realigned and I am
- [14:12]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
blessed by his grace to make amends. Dr. Schneider had brought with him a $35,000 check for restitution.
- [14:20]
Dr. Schneider (courtroom speech and blog excerpts)
I strive daily, reflecting in prayer, determined to be a good father, a good husband. Your Honor, my life is a cautionary tale and I share it openly. But whatever you decide, you, Honor, I accept as my due punishment.
- [14:37]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Schneider sat down. All that remained now was the judge's decision. The prosecutor, the patient's families, and Schneider himself all waited to learn his fate.
- [14:57]
Raza Jaffrey (podcast promo)
I'm Raza Jaffrey, and in the new season of the Spy who. They open the file on Benedict Arnold, the spy who betrayed the American Revolution. America is fighting to free itself from the British Empire, and one of its foremost generals is Benedict Arnold. He's a smuggler turned battlefield hero and admired for his aggressive tactics. But when a war wound, a new wife, debts and politics test his loyalty to the Mags. He turns spy and devises a plot to shatter the revolution and help Britain capture rebel commander in chief General George Washington. And that plot would make him the most infamous traitor in U.S. history. Follow the Spy who Now. Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can also listen to the full season of the Spy who Betrayed the American Revolution early and ad free on audible.
- [16:05]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
While Joe Womack waited for the judge to deliver the sentence, he reflected on Schneider's words in the courtroom.
- [16:11]
Joe Womack
I really thought that he was a pathological liar that had just done this without any regard to the harm that he caused people.
- [16:20]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
But he had no illusions about what usually happened in cases like this.
- [16:25]
Joe Womack
Financial fraud that doesn't involve violence or a gun or that sort of thing. My experience is people like that don't get sentenced as harshly as somebody that uses physical violence to steal or break into property.
- [16:41]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Whether the judge would see this as more than a white collar, rent of the mill financial fraud case was what they were all waiting to find out. And finally, the judge shared her decision. She told Dr. Schneider that she believed that the events leading up to the bankruptcy provided a window into his character. He had lied repeatedly, and he had done so in order to deny his patients the opportunity to try and get justice. Then she turned to the letters against Jimmy Biles. It was, she said, a sordid episode. She told him, when you take an oath to tell the truth and then you lie, that's not honorable. Dr. Schneider. Next she came to his offer to pay back $35,000. It was better than nothing, she said. But Dr. Schneider still had access to much of his fortune. It was sitting in trusts owned by his family. Judge Waters told him, you could have a means by which to come in here and pay your restitution in full and really demonstrate in good faith how remorseful you are. The judge said it was possible that he'd truly changed in the years since his crime. But she did not believe that his remorse was real. Nor did she think that he genuinely empathized with his patients. Then she came to her decision. It is the judgment of the court that you be committed to the custody of the Bureau of Prisons for a term of 24 months. At the prosecutor's table, Colin Rubitsch looked over at Dr. Schneider.
- [18:27]
Colin Rubich
He had this sort of droop of his head and looked down. And so I thought maybe, you know, he got through to him.
- [18:33]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Joe Womack, though, remembers it differently.
- [18:37]
Joe Womack
Schneider threw a temper tantrum. He got mad, slammed paper down, turned and yelled at his attorney and clearly wasn't very happy.
- [18:52]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
There was one place Dr. Schneider did unload his thoughts. About a week after his sentencing, he posted on his blog, this isn't Dr. Schneider's voice, but this is what he wrote.
- [19:06]
Dr. Schneider (courtroom speech and blog excerpts)
I've lived the life of Icarus. As with every hero's journey, the Greek tradition ends in tragedy. I have lived well and laughed at the lawyers, beating drums and soliciting my accusers, satisfied they will never find peace if their ancestors are in heaven or hell. I will find them and torment them as they have tried but failed to torment me.
- [19:32]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
You have to wonder what kind of punishment Schneider might have received if he'd have made these remarks to the judge. Just days earlier, Schneider had sat in the courtroom and watched Russell Monaco's mother, Judy, as she described the trauma of burying her son. But in the blog, Schneider reserved a particular venom for the Monaco's. He described Judy as, quote, a caustic and pedantic woman. And when he wrote about the Monaco's attempts to seek compensation for Russell's death, he questioned their motives.
- [20:03]
Dr. Schneider (courtroom speech and blog excerpts)
Since Wyoming is the Wild west where politics and backroom deals are encouraged and malevolent and sycophantic, plaintiff lawyers circle like the parasites they are. The Monaco clan lifted enough sewer lids and found their lawyer.
- [20:18]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Next, he turned his attention to Alan Knope. Alan had been left dependent on prescription opioids after Dr. Schneider performed two spinal fusions. In the blog, Schneider called him a drug addicted miscreant. He described Allen as a man whose tobacco and alcohol ruined his spine and I cared for for 10 years. He said Allen was, quote, whining because his bones did not fuse. He described Allen and the other patients pursuing claims against him as, quote, a racket of circle jerks. And then the Post took another turn. Harking back to his time in la, he claimed that his gangland contacts were going to take revenge on his perceived enemies. He noted the street where Dr. Bob Nowsky lived.
- [21:06]
Dr. Schneider (courtroom speech and blog excerpts)
The hounds are released and promised to visit my rivals.
- [21:13]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
When we asked him about the blog, Dr. Schneider's lawyer told us that Dr. Schneider was maligned and attacked by competitors and former patients. And he harbored some understandable resentment. Any rational person would defend their name and career. But when we read the blog to Schneider's old friend Mike Levy, he had a very different reaction.
- [21:36]
Dr. Mike Levy
He wrote that, I mean, we all have people we dislike and scenarios we dislike. It seems that he was just hanging on to it and just not able to let it go.
- [21:48]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
But it wasn't inconsistent with the man he had known.
- [21:51]
Dr. Mike Levy
I think that I have a good understanding of who he is. And in understanding who he is, I can see where the things that really defined who he was and defined his success also are things that would lead to these problems. The ability to fixate absolutely and completely on a clinical scenario with a patient maximizes your positive results. And it sounds like taking the personality and the approach that really led to a great deal of success during his training just didn't work in a number of scenarios when he was no longer there.
- [22:28]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
For Joe Womack, the sentencing wasn't quite the end of it. One day he was sitting in his office when the fax machine began to shoot out paper.
- [22:38]
Joe Womack
It was a really nasty picture.
- [22:41]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Somebody was faxing a pornographic image, and the main actor was labeled Joe Womack.
- [22:48]
Joe Womack
The implication is that I'm fucking everybody over.
- [22:54]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
It wasn't long before the photo landed on the desk of Colin Rubich.
- [22:58]
Colin Rubich
Geez, I don't get paid enough for this.
- [23:00]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
It had been sent to him by some of the attorneys representing patients.
- [23:04]
Colin Rubich
They had received an unmarked letter postmarked from San Diego, which was where Dr. Schneider was living at the time. I don't know if this was Dr. Schneider or not, but I don't know who else would have been interested enough to do this.
- [23:21]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
We did ask Dr. Schneider about this, but he declined to comment. The identity of the sender has never been proven. Joe Womack didn't spend much time thinking about it. He focused on the numbers. He felt he'd done all he could to try and claw back Schneider's assets. In the end, he recovered about $2 million, much of which came from the sale of the Whispering Winds Ranch in Wyoming. But Schneider's finances had been so complicated, untangling them had taken years. By the time it was over, most of the money had been eaten up by legal and administrative costs. What remained went to patients.
- [24:06]
Joe Womack
They didn't get very much. It wasn't nothing, but it certainly wasn't anything close to the damages that they had suffered.
- [24:15]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Alan Knope had a claim worth $1 million. In the end, he received just over 83,000. The family of Russell Monaco had been pursuing Dr. Schneider for $2 million. They received just over 166,000.
- [24:33]
Joe Womack
They didn't get compensated anywhere near what they were owed.
- [24:37]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
When we asked Schneider about this, his lawyer blamed the high cost of the bankruptcy on Womack, whose, quote, controversial methods he said, had increased costs unnecessarily. Another patient who was operated on after Schneider declared bankruptcy, received nothing at all.
- [24:57]
Dr. Schneider
I won't call him Dr. Schneider anymore. To me, just Schneider.
- [25:06]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
After the USA Today story broke, Anthony French, the Marine from Iowa with a brain tumor, reached out to his senator, Joni Ernst. Dr. Schneider proclaimed that he had removed all of the tumor. She spotlighted Anthony's story in a veterans affairs committee hearing. It turned out that Dr. Schneider had never removed the tumor. Members of the committee. Dr. Schneider never should have been hired to treat our veterans. Anthony had hoped that all the attention might help him find someone able to remove the tumor. But a lot of time had passed since his first operation. He saw a neurosurgeon at the Mayo clinic.
- [25:53]
Dr. Schneider
He said, if you'd have been here a year, year and a half ago, we'd have taken it out. But he said, you're not going to find a neurosurgeon now that's going to touch you. Because, he said, I guarantee you have an 80% chance of being blind and a 50% chance of just being dead.
- [26:13]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Anthony hired a lawyer and tried to get compensation from the va.
- [26:18]
Dr. Schneider
The legal side of everything goes slower than molasses on a cold winter day. My lawyer said, I can't foot the bill on this. He said, we need to get some highfalutin lawyer involved in this. And we searched and we searched and we searched, and they all kept saying the same thing. You're going to have to hire expert witnesses, which could cost $80,000 to $200,000. If you got that money in your pocket, we'll do it, but we're not going to put the money up front.
- [26:48]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
So Anthony was left with nothing, no compensation. And with the tumor still to this day in his brain, his house sits in perpetual darkness to help with his intense headaches, which are made worse by light, he's been warned that one day the tumor will likely cause him to go blind. For Anthony, there's no way to move on.
- [27:12]
Dr. Schneider
I do my daily reflections, and Schneider's always in on them, and they're never good, you know, and I'm not supposed to be that way, but I can't help it. I always wish bad on him. You know, you call him Dr. Death. That's a pretty good name for him because it's already been so disappointing, losing everything. I've already lost that I don't think I could live with being blind. I don't want to live with being blind.
- [27:42]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
When we asked Dr. Schneider about Anthony, he told us via his lawyer that the accusations were, quote, baseless and that he doesn't remember Anthony. When we followed up with more information, his lawyer did not respond. Dr. Schneider did everything he could to appeal his sentence, but after months of legal wrangling, he was forced to admit defeat. He reported to the Metropolitan Correctional center in San Diego to begin his two year sentence. The following year, he was out on supervised release. He and his wife Michelle moved to a small town in Oregon. They settled into a four bedroom property on a cliff overlooking the Ocean. Purchased for $1.1 million to prosecutor Colin Rubich. It's an outcome that's hard to stomach.
- [28:41]
Colin Rubich
I've seen so many people do such horrible things, sell their souls, really, for what is essentially stuff and money. And Schneider is, of course, one of the ones that sticks with me because here is a guy who to this day, I am sure he is living a very, very comfortable life. He's living a life that most people would never dream of. So many of the defendants that I come in contact with really have never had an opportunity. And then I see a guy like Schneider and I just think, what haven't you been given? And it's sad because I don't know of anything that could be done to get him to see the damage that he has done to people. And that is just tragic to me.
- [29:36]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
We did approach Dr. Schneider to take part in this series. At first, he seemed inclined to participate. We sent him a list of topic areas that we hoped to discuss. But after that, he withdrew. He did, however, provide us with documents and other materials, including several lengthy statements from his lawyer. In Dr. Schneider's view, he was a successful surgeon who helped thousands of people. He argues that we focused disproportionately on a handful of negative outcomes. He says that surgery is inherently risky and that adverse outcomes do not in themselves constitute malpractice or unethical conduct. He also told us that the malpractice lawsuits that followed him throughout his career in private practice were all ultimately dismissed or settled without any admission of wrongdoing. He maintains that those who accuse him of wrongdoing are competing surgeons and disgruntled patients that are motivated by professional rivalry and more marketplace disputes. He describes the allegations against him as negative anecdotes and unsubstantiated claims. In the end, the official record of Dr. Schneider's career amounts to one conviction for bankruptcy, fraud and the loss of his medical license after the death of his patient, Russell Monaco. From what we can find, 19 of his former patients or their families brought claims implicating Schneider. None ever made it to trial. They were all either settled without admission of wrongdoing or withdrawn. To this day, many feel like justice has never truly been served.
- [31:27]
Kathy Yuen
It was about the money.
- [31:29]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Back in Wyoming, Kathy Yuen, the woman who started out our story, was working out her own journey on the path
- [31:36]
Kathy Yuen
to healing the illegal things about Money got him in trouble. That's a strange dichotomy if you think about it. Should have been the opposite. To hurt so many people and not be punished for that. Mistakes happen. I'm the first one to say that mistakes happen. But one or two mistakes with people, that's one thing, but tens of them. So slap his hands about the money, take his money away, whatever. But how do you give back? How do you make him give back to all these people what they've lost?
- [32:20]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Kathy thought about suing Dr. Schneider.
- [32:23]
Kathy Yuen
My dad always said, don't let anyone live rent free in your head.
- [32:28]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
But in the end, she chose not to.
- [32:30]
Kathy Yuen
I had to get Dr. Schneider out of my head and out of my life. We needed to get Dr. Schneider out of our family. And so I talked with all three of the kids and said, we let go of this. We let go of this. Now don't bring him in. He's gone. I've had intense emotion talking about him in this interview and almost am surprised at how well I have tried to block him out. Finally, I'm not sure I'd recognize him on the street, honestly.
- [33:14]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Schneider's behavior and the mythology that developed around him throughout his turbulent career got me to thinking about something very specific. His cowboy boots. Some doctors just find them comfortable. Some, especially here in my part of the world in Texas, grew up in them. But in Schneider's case, there seems to be more to the boots than comfort or fashion. At some point, he chose to go through the world as a cowboy. He moved out of Southern California to the frontier states of Wyoming and Montana to make his fortune. By Hollywood myth, the cowboy depends on no one, remains steadfast, and answers mostly to himself. By most descriptions, Schneider was a cowboy in the most modern sense. He moved quickly and boldly, and sometimes recklessly. The problem is, an operating room, or the US healthcare system for that matter, can only handle so much shoot from the hip. State medical boards, which are tasked with reining in dangerous doctors, move slowly and deliberately.
- [34:29]
Dr. Schneider (courtroom speech and blog excerpts)
We are bad at calling out physicians in our own hospital that are colleagues. We are bad at that for a number of reasons, but there isn't really an entity that has teeth that oversees that.
- [34:44]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Schneider's former colleague Michael Copeland says that means the job of reining in unsafe doctors often falls to the patients themselves.
- [34:53]
Dr. Schneider (courtroom speech and blog excerpts)
I think in the United States, we rely heavily on malpractice litigation to regulate physician behavior. While that has a lot of downside to it because of the large amount of money involved, and the large amount of money never makes anything better. There isn't a plan B.
- [35:16]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
The truth is that it's not just Dr. Schneider who made money from his surgeries. So did the hospitals he worked in. As Dr. Naradsky told us, there can be an incentive not to look too hard. More than that, Dr. Schneider moved between small rural hospitals and hopped from state to state. No one person ever saw the whole picture. And sometimes, even when the system does eventually work and strips a doctor of their license, it still isn't enough to protect patients. Just ask Annette. Richard Hopkins sister why would you allow him to go to another state and practice?
- [35:54]
Kathy Yuen
No one should have hired him. They knew his license had been stripped. I still can't get over that. I cannot get past that.
- [36:06]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Annette and all the other patients and families spoke with us because they're still seeking a sense of justice. They're trying to heal from their trauma. Even today. They don't want something like this to happen again. That's my hope, too. But one thing I know about cowboy stories Even when the law restores order, it isn't long before another stranger rides into town.
- [36:38]
Joe Womack
Foreign.
- [36:47]
Narrator (Laura Beale)
Listen to Dr. Death the Cowboy on the Audible app or wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Dr. Death the Cowboy early and ad free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. From Audible Originals. This is the sixth and final episode of Dr. Death the Cowboy. I'm your host, Laura Beale. Executive producers are Russell Finch and Marshall Louie. Our senior reporter is Zachary Stouffer. Tom Wright is our senior producer. Our associate producer is Mohamed Ahmed. Joe Wheeler is the senior story editor. Senior development producer is Rachel B. Doyle. Our production managers are Cherie Houston and Sarah Mathis. Our associate director of production is Latha Pandya. Fact checking by Jacqueline Coletti Sound design and mixing by Nicholas Alexander and Mark Pittam. Sound supervisor is Marcelino Villapando. Production services provided by Novel the executive producer is Max o'. Brien. For Novel. Special thanks to Lindsey Graham. Head of creative development at Audible is Kate Navin. Head of Regional Content North America is Marshall Lewie. The Chief content officer is Rachel Giazza. Copyright 2026 by Audible Originals, LLC. Sound recording Copyright 2026 by Audible Original.