College Killer Thinks He's Getting Away With It

Summary

---

Dr. Insanity Podcast

Episode: College Killer Thinks He's Getting Away With It

Date: November 12, 2024
Host: Dr Insanity (with narration from Mike and Dirty Keith)

---

Episode Overview

This chilling episode dives into the harrowing true crime case of Isaac Pence, a young man who brutally murdered a college student, Charles Starner, during a chaotic party at a cabin in Ohio. Through police bodycam audio, witness interviews, and expert narration, the episode unpacks the events leading to the murder, the subsequent investigation, and the psychological dynamics between the killer, his girlfriend, and the group of friends forever changed by senseless violence. The episode is a blend of true crime storytelling, insightful commentary, and memorable detective interrogations that highlight failures of character, the nature of abusers, and a tragic loss.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Cabin Party Turns Deadly

[01:17-04:22]

• Dalton Flagg’s 23rd birthday is celebrated at a rented cabin in Hocking County, Ohio, with college friends and family.
• Isaac Pence (20), described as beligerently drunk and aggressive, is present with his girlfriend Sabra (Sabre).
• A fistfight escalates: Isaac throws the first punch, is pushed back, and gets into his car.
• In a blur of violence, Isaac retrieves a knife and stabs Charles Starner six times (neck and back), then flees with Sabra.
• Witness Hannah, an EMS student, is unable to save Charles despite desperate attempts; he dies before medics arrive.
• Initial confusion among police: everyone at the scene is considered a potential suspect.

Notable Quote:

“Over college students watched as Isaac viciously took the life of their friend, Charles Starner … Isaac thinks he's getting away with it.” (Mike, [01:17])

2. Witness Statements & Early Investigations

[05:17-11:47]

• Police quickly separate key witnesses: Hannah and James, both covered in blood from trying to save Charles.
• Hannah describes a brawl stemming from drunken bravado, with escalating tension; "Somebody said, gun, and that's when I was like, I'm definitely gonna stay in here." ([07:11])
• Both confirm Isaac escalated the violence and was the aggressor ("He went straight for the neck...very fast, very vigorously." – Hannah, [07:47])
• Party host Dalton details Isaac’s prior violence against his own mother and Dalton's sister Sabra: "Isaac's had issues in the past. He's put his hands on my sister and ... his mom." ([11:36])
• Police learn Isaac's history of abusive, unpredictable behavior.

3. Tracking the Fugitives

[12:29-15:47]

• Isaac and Sabra visit two locations after the murder: friend Justin Sloan’s house, where they hide the knife; then Sabra’s mother’s hotel.
• Sabra’s shocking detachment: "She just watched her boyfriend stab someone to death, all she cares about is getting her belongings back before work the next day." (Mike, [16:06])

4. Crucial Video Evidence Emerges

[16:40-18:25]

• The next day, Hannah and James deliver a cell phone video that captured the stabbing. The evidence is damning: “I captured the entire stabbing … she [Sabra] grabs him and she tosses it onto his seat.” (Hannah, [17:23])
• Sabra may have handed Isaac the murder weapon.

5. The Interrogations – Lies, Trauma, and Manipulation

Isaac’s First Interview

[21:55-29:17]

• Isaac weaves a self-serving narrative, claiming self-defense and portraying himself as a victim: "I didn't try to do it to physically hurt anybody really bad, but... just to poke, like, hey, I have a knife." ([27:30])
• Contradicts witness accounts, stating “They all decided they were gonna try me” and lies about the number of times he stabbed Charles.
• Downplays his intoxication, omits acts of aggression.

Sabra’s Interview

[30:06-40:04]

• Sabra insists Isaac “is not that type of person,” denying his violent nature, despite records of domestic abuse.
• Detectives attempt to break through her trauma-bonded denial:

  “If you’re trying to protect this man, you're gonna go down as an accomplice for murder.” ([36:27])

• Ultimately, she admits helping hide the knife after being confronted.

6. The Final Interrogation – Breaking the Killer

[41:08-49:40]

• Detectives leverage inconsistencies and emotional appeals:

  “Your honesty … is all you have left. I have found about 40 loopholes in your story, and I know the truth.” ([41:28])

• Reveals tragic impact:

  “A mother lost her son, a father lost his son … Several friends lost another friend who bled out at the hands of someone you care about.” ([42:19])

• Isaac begins to admit more but maintains partial memory loss, culminating in his arrest for murder.

7. Justice & Sentencing

[50:19-51:13]

• Sabra pleads guilty to obstructing justice, gets up to 12 months in prison.
• Isaac is convicted of murder, felonious assault, and evidence tampering:

  “… sentenced to 18 years to life in prison, where he will not see the light of day for a long, long time.” (Mike, [51:08])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Isaac’s Violence

  “Isaac's had issues in the past. He's put his hands on my sister and he's just literally went to jail three months ago for putting his hands on my mom.” – Dalton ([11:36])

• On the Party’s Chaos

  “Tonight was just not right … I trust my gut feeling. And that was terrifying.” – Hannah ([09:07])

• Sabra’s Denial

  “He’s not the type of person, he's not violent... I know he's not that type of person.” – Sabra ([31:15])

• Detective’s Confrontation

  “What you did last night is fucked up. You killed somebody.” – Detective ([42:12])

• On the Aftermath

  “Charlie didn't die right away, but … his kid isn't the only one left without a dad. Because Draco and Waylon aren't gonna have their dad either. They're not gonna have their mom either. She went to jail today.” – Detective ([49:40])

---

Key Timestamps

• [01:17] — Crime and chaos begin; stabbing occurs
• [07:47] — Detailed witness description of the stabbing
• [11:36] — Dalton reveals Isaac’s violent history
• [16:06] — Sabra’s disturbing reaction to the murder
• [17:23] — Hannah presents crucial phone footage
• [27:30] — Isaac insists it was "just to poke" people
• [36:27] — Detectives escalate pressure on Sabra
• [41:28] — Final confrontation with Isaac
• [49:40] — Detective summarizes the emotional devastation
• [51:08] — Sentencing and aftermath details

---

Tone & Style

The episode is delivered in a gripping, narrative-driven true crime format, balancing dark humor, incredulity at the suspects’ lies, and deep empathy for the victim and those left behind. The hosts and detectives use candid, sometimes blunt language to confront the brutal reality of the crime and the psychology behind the participants' actions.

---

Summary

This episode of Dr. Insanity is a haunting account of a murder committed by a young man amidst the backdrop of toxic relationships, substance abuse, and a tragically preventable chain of events. Through methodical police work, powerful witness accounts, and the unraveling of lies during interrogations, justice is ultimately served—but at great cost to all involved.

Transcript

[A]

Hey you and welcome. My name is Mike and I'm joined as always by my junior associate, Dirty Keith.

[B]

Heyo.

[A]

And this is the that Chapter podcast where every Monday morning we have a brand new episode for you exclusively talking about the strangest, scariest and most mysterious stories from around the world. Such as the Evangelista occult murders where the entire Evangelista family was found horrifyingly murdered. Was it related to the creepy occult life sized paper mache men found in the basement?

[C]

Or.

[A]

Or was it a crazy axeman the family knew who had only just escaped an insane asylum?

[B]

Or how about the High Gate vampire, where from a gothic graveyard a terrifying figure was spotted? This led to mass hysteria and eventually two notorious and hilarious vampire hunters attempting to handle it with crazy results.

[A]

So wherever you get your podcasts, join me and Keith every Monday morning for a new spooky tale. Or else. I think that'll do. All right.

[C]

So you know if I'm gonna be able to go home today. Go get my.

[D]

You aren't going anywhere. What you did last night is f ed up. You killed somebody.

[B]

Just hours prior to this interrogation, 20 year old Isaac Pence brutally stabbed someone to death and fled the scene. Over college students watched as Isaac viciously took the life of their friend, Charles Starner. Unfortunately for them, they were in the middle of the woods, staying in a vacation cabin in Ohio. Help was far away and Isaac was on the run. Over the course of the next few days, this group of college kids would work with police to hunt down this evil killer together and bring justice to their friend who was senselessly killed. But Isaac thinks he's getting away with it.

[C]

I stabbed myself.

[D]

Holy sh T. And you think that's funny?

[C]

Everyone got way too drunk. About 15 of them all wanted to come outside and try and jump me. Shit's gonna happen. Yeah. I woke up and my mom's like, hey, cops are out here for you. I was like, what the do you mean the cops are right here for me?

[B]

On the night of April 22, 2023, 23 year old Dalton Flagg was celebrating his birthday with family at a rented cabin in Hocking County, Ohio. But what should have been the perfect night would quickly turn out to be a tragedy. This is the CCTV footage outside the house after a long night of drinking. An altercation ensues between a group of teens. Isaac stood in the midst of the argument with his girlfriend Sabra, watching from afar. After a few seconds of back and forth, Isaac snaps, throwing a punch into the crowd. This made them push Isaac back into A car where he would strike the crowd again before setting off towards his own vehicle. However, moments later, the fist fight quickly turned into a gruesome scene outside of the camera's view. Isaac ran back to his car to grab something, but before he could exit his car again, he was quickly cornered by multiple people trying to force him to leave. That's when Isaac pulled out his knife and attacked. Charles Starner, the college student pushing on Isaac's car door went on to receive six brutal stab wounds. Struck in the neck and the back. Panic set in as everyone realized the horrifying scene unfolding in front of them. One of Charles friends quickly grabbed him and pulled him away from the vicious attack. Isaac would then quickly get inside his car and drive off into the woods with his girlfriend, Sabra. The killer. Isaac was now on the loose and would spend the following hours attempting to cover his tracks. Charlie, on the other hand, the student he just stabbed limped over to his friends, fading in and out of consciousness. Charlie's friend Hannah was an EMS student, but the injuries were too brutal for her to keep him alive. By the time paramedics arrived on scene, it was already too late, and Charlie would pass away. Officers at this point have no idea what led to Charlie's death. Anyone at the crime scene could be a potential killer. So they immediately rally everyone together looking for outliers.

[C]

Slide them over so we can.

[E]

I can move my.

[F]

Let's go.

[G]

Right.

[C]

That is Detective Suer right there. She's going to start asking questions.

[B]

Nice to meet you.

[D]

Top of the morning.

[A]

Yeah.

[H]

Great night.

[D]

Who saw what happened?

[G]

I saw everything that happened.

[D]

Why don't you come stand over here? You saw what happened to. Stay separate, but stand over here. Anyone else?

[B]

The two people who just stepped forward are Hannah and James, and they are the only two who are entirely drenched in blood.

[D]

You have a phone?

[C]

I believe.

[F]

It's right to the side of the Forerunner.

[D]

Just stand where you are. You blow it on your pants or shoes, we're probably gonna take your hoodie, James.

[B]

Blood stains appear to be those of a witness, since they were smooth and smeared. If he was the one who stabbed Charlie, the blood patterns would likely be sharp and scattered across the body. As for Hannah, all of her arms were covered in blood, indicating that she was likely trying to stop Charlie from bleeding out by applying pressure. Regardless, it's clear the two were eyewitnesses to Charlie's murder. So Detective Summers and her counterpart would immediately conduct an interview with both James and Hannah to get a clear recollection of events.

[D]

That's a body cam sitting up there on the dash. All right, tell me what you saw, what happened, what led up to all these events.

[F]

So I had been inside the house. Once you go in. Once you go in and you go to the right, there's, like, the whole kitchen, family room, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, there's this one kid, the whole party that, because he knew I had a background in ems, was calling me firefighter, firefighter, firefighter, fire. And so I showed him some pictures from, like, different, like, fires I'd been on. And then somebody got mad at him for talking to me, which wasn't even any guy that I really knew. Well, so they started fist fighting inside, like, right in the doorway. Once you go into the right. And the kid that's covered in blood. Jimmy. Jimmy and I were kind of standing off to the side, and I told him. I was like, I don't like this. I mean, everybody's trying to tear it up and stuff. Like, they were still wrestling. They got out into this main corridor right here in front of the door. But I was still sitting, like, at the kitchen table, so I could kind of hear what was going on. But once again, I didn't want to get a fire. Well, I heard somebody say, gun, and that's when I was like, I'm definitely.

[G]

Gonna stay in here.

[F]

They're out here fighting, like, right in front of my truck, the Toyota 4Runner. And Jimmy, the kid that's covered in blood, was trying to separate him. And I think what happened is he pulled over to a center console, pulled a knife out, and when he did, he went straight for the neck. That's how he got the neck wound. For his back. For his back again. And he got him again in the back. I want to say it was like, five stab wounds. Four or five stab wounds. But, I mean, he did, like. I mean, it was very fast, very vigorously.

[B]

The moves Hannah describes are not supposed to be used to protect yourself from the attacker, but to kill them. One poke or a stab might be enough to deter the attacker, but four or five of them to vital parts of the victim's body is a clear indication that Isaac intended to kill.

[E]

So kind of explain this to me a little bit. So they were fighting, I guess, fist fighting over here on this side? Yeah, they were fighting on this side. Okay. And then what happened? That guy, I think his name's Isaac, he got up, came over to his car, which was right where the got up. So he got knocked down.

[C]

I don't know.

[E]

I. I was standing on the porch at that time. He's over here on the porch?

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

Okay. But I just saw them all go down there. He was parked right next to the Forerunner. So he went to get in his car, and that's when everything happened. But I saw him start stabbing Charlie.

[C]

So that's when I kicked his door.

[E]

To kind of stump him. And then I pulled Charlie away and then onto the other side. And that's when I was. We were all just holding him. Did he know he had a knife at that point, you think?

[C]

No, Nobody knew. Okay.

[E]

And then after that, I, like, I just kept my arm around Charlie to hold pressure on all of his wounds. And then that's why there's blood from this side of the Forerunner over. Cause after I drug him there, that's where I sat the whole time until.

[C]

You guys got here.

[F]

It's just. I trust my gut feeling. And tonight was just not right. And that was terrifying.

[D]

I understand completely.

[F]

It was just an absolute show. And I came out onto the porch to make sure. Like, I was honestly kind of scared I was gonna get shot because they had said, you know, there might be a gun, but I wanted to be.

[G]

Here in case somebody got hurt.

[B]

Zach had called over the phone and threatened to come back and finished the job, further confirming to police that this was not an act of self defense. While Jimmy and Hannah's interviews provide detectives with a clear picture of what led to the stabbings, both witnesses had never met Isaac before. However, police still know nothing about the actual person who committed this murder. So Detective Summers decides to bring in Dalton, the party's host, who also happens to be Sabra's brother. And he would reveal some twisted information crucial to solving this case.

[D]

So walk me through. How long have you guys been here?

[H]

We've been here the whole weekend. Yeah, we got here Friday, like 4pm I think it was. And literally, like, all these people, I was making sure everybody had, like, safe rides home. I didn't want people driving. Like, if you're driving, there's plenty of room to stay. Everybody can stay. And I was making sure everyone was leaving. And Isaac pinched one, that he was belligerent. And I said, dude, I was like, you have a safe ride to go home. Just leave. Leave. There's no, like, just. No. There's no reason for anything. You're like, everybody's going home. Half the people are sleeping, trying to go to bed. Like, I was in the.

[C]

In the.

[H]

When this all went down, I was trying. I was telling everybody to get, like, get him out. Like, just get him out of here. Tell him to leave. Get him out of here. And then start. They all start freaking out. He stabbed. He stabbed something. I was like, we all were freaking out. Like, I was like, I'm so much in shock. Like, I did not know what to do. I was up in there and Hannah and Jimmy, they were all helping, like, holding, like, I was like, just keep pressure on him. Like, I, like I don't know what to do. Like. And they were all calling.

[D]

Who is him when you're saying that they were holding pressure on him.

[H]

The one that got stabbed. Charlie Star, Hannah and Jimmy, they were holding pressure on him after. Like, they were like, he, he stabbed him, he stabbed him. And like Isaac hopped in the car after immediately and sped off through. Up through here.

[E]

Okay.

[D]

Who was Isaac with? Who did he flee with?

[C]

He.

[H]

My sister. Saberfly. Isaac's had issues in the past. He's put his hands on my sister and he's just literally went to jail three months ago for putting his hands on my mom.

[B]

Isaac Pence was someone that should never have been at this party in the first place. He already had a history of being violent, as Dalton explained. And to make matters worse, he was deadbeat drunk, flailing around, assaulting everyone that came into view. It was only a matter of time before someone got seriously hurt. It just so happened that Dalton telling Isaac to leave made him explode. More importantly, Dalton explained that Isaac went to prison for assaulting his mother. This is very important information as it could prove in court that Isaac had pre existing tendencies of assault. Detective Summers plans to speak to Dalton's mother face to face. But before she's able to do so, she receives disturbing information that changes the case completely.

[D]

They went to the hotel room where Sabre's mom is staying. She told him to get their and get out. And I don't know, she doesn't know if he's coming back to finish what he started or what.

[E]

Oh, nice.

[C]

Cool. All right, good. Mark, come a card.

[B]

With these claims in mind, police would have everyone evacuate the premises and lock down the cabin. Fortunately, Isaac would never show and the hunt for Isaac Pence would go cold for the night.

[E]

I'm Ukraine. We just need a statement from you about what happened last night.

[F]

Okay.

[I]

I know I was not supposed to.

[G]

Be at work at 6 o' clock this morning.

[I]

I was woke up at 3am by my daughter calling me on the phone. She was hard to understand. I could tell she was intoxicated and she was very hard for me to understand what she was saying. I knew There was a fight. She said a fight was breaking out. She said, I've lost my glass. I don't have my glasses. I don't have my purse. I don't have a shoe. I was trampled on. Dalton and Isaac. Dalton is my son.

[A]

Isaac is.

[I]

They not Been bad blood, but Isaac's not treated Sabre very well.

[D]

I've had.

[I]

We had a court case not too.

[F]

Long ago when he put me across the room.

[I]

So Dalton's just protective of his sister, worried for her safety, really. So he told her yesterday he's not to come if he's been drinking. Well, when he got out of the car, he already had an empty container on. And Don said he tried to get him to leave all night. Several times he tried to get him to leave, and Isaac wouldn't leave.

[C]

Okay, so this is what she told.

[E]

You on the phone, correct?

[D]

Yeah.

[I]

And then I said, sabra, where are you going right now? Where are you?

[F]

Are you.

[I]

She said, they. She first told me they were at Isaac's house. I said, sabra, okay, But I could hear this in the background. I could hear Isaac talking to somebody. And she was still sitting in the car. And I said, if you're at your house, if you guys are at your house, why are you still sitting in the car? She was like, well, I don't know where we are. I said, sabra, ask Isaac where you are. So she asked Isaac where they were. Isaac said, it's okay. I stopped at a buddy's house, and I said, okay, I don't know what buddy. I know they said something on Chicken Coop Road. But then they left there and came to the room.

[F]

They were at my room.

[I]

Maybe 20 minutes. And I told Isaac he needed to leave. He said he was calm when I was talking to Sabre on the phone. Much different person when he was there at the room. He said, well, once I go to my house to get what I need, I'm going back out there. I don't know what he was meaning, but he was going out there to finish. Finish something off.

[G]

What time was that?

[I]

That was. I mean, they left my room at 19 till 5.

[C]

5Am yes.

[I]

Because then I called my mom because I said, obviously, I don't know what's going on.

[F]

It's.

[I]

I can't.

[F]

I'm not.

[I]

I'm not going to work today. And I called McDonald's. I'm a manager McDonald's. And I called him and said, I don't really know what's going on. This is all I know. But I know my kid I don't know, I just feel like something. I'm not being told everything, and I just. I. I still can't believe this.

[B]

It's frankly terrifying that despite the fact that Sabre just watched her boyfriend stab someone to death, all she cares about is getting her belongings back before work the next day. This ignorance and complete disregard for their crimes is something that both Isaac and Sabra should be held accountable for. Police would go on to get written statements from everyone at the house that night, adding to the pile of evidence against Isaac. However, the next day, Hannah and James would show up to the station to provide police with the most damning evidence they've received yet.

[F]

Obviously, a lot was going on yesterday. A lot. So I remember how I said I had been on the porch. Well, I think I'm. I flew off the porch so fast, and I ended up on the hood of my truck because I thought Isaac was gonna hit my car.

[H]

Okay.

[F]

So I started recording a video in the circumstance that he hit my car. And I captured the entire stabbing. I captured Sarah, the female that was in the passenger seat. You can see her reach into the back seat with her flash gun, her phone on.

[C]

Watch it.

[F]

There. She saber grabbing the. Sticking her back. So him dragging him away. Honestly, if you put the brightness on the video up, we might be able to see a little bit better. So this goes so fast, but it's him standing up in the door up there. There's safer. Getting into the back seat, she grabs him and she tosses it onto his seat.

[E]

Tom tosses what?

[F]

Something from the back seat onto his car seat that Isaac's on. So Isaac's right there in the middle. Okay, I see he's the one standing up there. That's his arm yelling, telling him. Then he's stabbed right there. And that's Jimmy grabbing him and pulling him back.

[B]

Unfortunately, we have to censor the evidence due to YouTube's guidelines, but an uncensored version along with the extended three hour cut of the video is available on our Patreon linked in the description. This video is a crucial step in proving Isaac guilty, as it shows clearly that Isaac did in fact stab Charlie. Additionally, Sabre seems to hand something over to Isaac right before the stabbing occurs, meaning she could have potentially given Isaac the knife used to kill Charlie. With this, police have more than enough evidence to arrest Isaac and Sabra. This would be an easy task as police were able to ping Sabre's phone location to Isaac's house. They would be detained shortly thereafter. However, during the investigation, they also discovered something peculiar by Tracing the car's movements found at Isaac's house, officers realized that Sabre and Isaac visited two other locations before arriving at their own home. The first was the house of Isaac's friend Justin sloan. At approximately 3am, just minutes after the stabbing, CCTV cameras captured Sabra and Isaac stopping at the home. Why exactly they stopped would soon unravel itself as officers call Justin.

[C]

Hello?

[E]

Hello, is this Justin?

[G]

Yes.

[E]

Hi, Justin. This is Detective McKnight, Hocking County Sheriff's Office. I appreciate you talking to Captain Robinson earlier, but I've just got a couple follow up questions real quick. So the questions that I have is, do you know Sabre?

[C]

Yes. Because she knew my little brother and stuff. That's how I met her.

[E]

But this is the first time she's been to your house?

[C]

This current house that I live in, yes. Normally we all just kind of meet at our friend's house.

[E]

Was she present during the discussions when he was. When Isaac was telling you what was happening, what happened last night?

[C]

Yes, sir.

[E]

Okay. Was she present when he hid the knives?

[C]

She was in my garage on the phone with her mother.

[E]

And he left the garage to go that he said say he was going to go do that?

[C]

Yeah, I couldn't really tell him no because I didn't know what was going on. I had no idea if it was true or not. Okay.

[E]

Do you have any idea who told the police that he was going to come back and finish the job?

[C]

I don't think. I didn't hear him say stuff like that when he was drunk and freaking out at my house, though. It might even be on camera, but I don't know.

[E]

He did say stuff like that at your house?

[C]

Kind of. It was more of like he just wanted to go back and beat up the other people that were trying to jump him.

[E]

Okay. All right.

[B]

The killer couple hid two knives at Justin's home. Evidently, the two were panicking with a fresh kill on their hands. They didn't know what to do and stashed the knives at Justin's home without him knowing. Once Justin refuses to give them shelter, Isaac and Sabra make a second stop. Sabra's mother's hotel room. It's obvious the two are panicking. Isaac knew what he did could get him in serious trouble. So instead of working with the police to prove his innocence, he hid the murder weapons and ran. The evidence points to Isaac as a Claire killer who murdered an innocent college student for no reason. With little to no evidence proving this statement to be wrong, detectives decide it's time to conduct their first formal interrogation with Isaac. The goal of this interrogation is to get Isaac to admit to the murder and then slowly break his attempt at claiming self defense until he has nothing left other than to admit his evil actions.

[E]

Why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself? You live on Pickerington Road. Okay. How long have you lived there?

[C]

About six or seven years now.

[E]

Who do you live there with?

[C]

My mom, my stepdad.

[G]

Okay.

[C]

I got a little brother, a little sister.

[F]

Okay.

[C]

Then Sabra and my two kids. Okay.

[E]

And who's safer?

[C]

My fiance. Okay.

[E]

And how old are your children?

[C]

One is one and one is four months.

[E]

Okay.

[B]

All right. On the surface, it might look like Isaac is a proud father, but he's hiding more than a few skeletons in his closet. When officers arrived to arrest him, his home's condition was beyond deplorable. The pungent smell of a man. Ammonia, likely accumulated from urine, filled up every single corner of the home. But that wasn't even the worst part. Isaac was a well known abuser, and in his girlfriend's mother's words, Sabra was his biggest victim. This meant that the children he tries to speak so dearly about were the same ones who, according to people close to Isaac, had to live in a house that stunk of urine, all the while seeing their mother be abused on the regular. To many, it might seem that Isaac's complete disregard and ignorance of anyone but himself is what landed him here in the first place. Yet in his eyes, he seems to think that he's done nothing wrong. In fact, as the interview continues, it's almost as if he sees himself as the victim.

[E]

So sounds like you guys came up here for a birthday party. Is that correct?

[F]

Yeah.

[E]

So whose birthday was it?

[C]

It was her brother's birthday. Me and her brother never got along. Okay. I was sitting there the whole time. I was like, I know this is a bad idea, but I want to make her happy. So I was like, you know, I will try to put my pride aside. Let's go ahead and go. Okay. We were there. Everything was good. It was completely.

[E]

When did you get there?

[C]

As of around eight, I think. 8:30. Well, everything was completely fine and we're having a good time. She ended up having a panic attack because she wanted to get into a hot tub and she was way too drunk and she oh, he's gonna be mad if I get a hot tub. I said, hey, you're fine. Get a hot tub. She's like, well, there's other dudes in there. I was like, listen, I'm not getting a hot tub because I'm wearing work shorts or work pants. Work shirt. I'm not getting hot tubes. You want to get in there? Go ahead.

[B]

Notice how Isaac completely leaves out the facts that he, too, was belligerently drunk. Pay attention to how Isaac cleverly leaves out details that may diminish his story.

[C]

She gets in there. Everything's fine. Well, later on that night, she's outside, and we're all standing out in the hallway.

[E]

She's outside, so.

[C]

And she's out on the patio.

[E]

Who's she?

[C]

Sigma. Okay, then it was me, her brother, and I think, like, two other guys.

[E]

What's her brother's name?

[C]

Dalton. Dalton. Okay. I don't know the other two guys, but we were all standing right here in the hallway, and someone ended up pushing me, so I pushed him back. Well, Dalton thought that I pushed his girlfriend, Horizon. And so he got all pissed off. That's when everyone tried to jump me. Well, I kind of knew what I'm doing a little bit, so I start throwing them to the side, and that's when I was like, you know, I'm not trying to F anybody, so just.

[B]

Toss them to the side.

[C]

I got in my car. I was telling Sabre. I was like, hey, if you want to go, then we're going. Well, they came, and they got in the faster car, and they took her sunglasses. Or no, her actual glasses, and her purse out, trying to keep her to stay there. Oh, you're gonna stay here. And I was like, well, with everything going on, like, I'm going to leave.

[E]

Because you said you just want to leave.

[C]

Yeah, it was from 10 to 15 guys, and they all decided they were gonna try me. Well, then this one comes up to my corridor. Came up, and he was kicking my car. I mean, once they start sitting there trying to bust the glass to get to me, that's when I put a knife. I was like, hey, you need to back up. And they didn't want. No. They ended up opening my car door. What car door? My driver said carter. They did?

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

It was two to three guys were sitting there, and they're just yanking on. I was trying to hold it as good as I could, and there's three guys sitting there pulling on it. I was like, I'm not gonna let my door break. I was like, hey, you guys need to back up. Like, this is not going down right here, okay? And they didn't want to listen, so I was like, listen. Just start poking out a little bit.

[B]

Immediately, Isaac's story contradicts all of the witness statements thus far, Isaac claims he was the one trying to leave the party, while everyone else claims they were trying to get Isaac to leave. Unfortunately for Isaac, the phone recording, CCTV footage, and mountains of other evidence go directly against what he's saying. But for now, detectives will let Isaac create a detailed narrative without confrontation so that they can use it against him in later interrogations.

[C]

Like, I didn't try to do it to physically hurt anybody really bad, but I did it just to, like, poke, like, hey, I have a knife.

[G]

Calm down.

[E]

Where did you get the knife?

[C]

Oh, it was in my car.

[F]

Okay.

[C]

I use it for work. Okay. Because doing construction, we used to cut plastic and everything.

[E]

Okay.

[C]

They wouldn't stop. They just kept going. So I tried to step the one guy in the arm just so they would go. Well, as soon as I stepped him in the arm, they left. The other two guys took off completely. Okay. And that's when Sabre got in the car and I took off. I left, got somewhere safe. I called my mom. I was like, hey, I should not be driving right now. And a bunch of shit just popped off. I was like, I need to figure out something. I gotta go somewhere, but I don't need to be driving.

[E]

So you stabbed the guy in the arm one time?

[C]

I think it was twice.

[E]

Twice?

[C]

Sure.

[E]

Wasn't more than that?

[C]

I don't think so. Okay, so when you left and you said you called Mom.

[G]

Right.

[C]

So did she come get you from there? She was not able to. Gotcha. So did you go. Where'd you go after that? I went straight home.

[B]

Isaac is blatantly making lie after lie. Every lie he makes during this interrogation will only come back to haunt him once he's presented with factual evidence.

[C]

The knife, what's its location? Where is it at? Should still be in my car. Should be in the car. So if I didn't drop it after. Gotcha. It's either in the car or it's at their house. Gotcha.

[E]

Okay.

[B]

Detectives would wrap this interrogation up quickly as they got exactly what he needed. Isaac doubled down on his claims of self care defense and lied through his teeth in order to do so. Now that they have these statements on record, Isaac is going to have a really hard time proving his innocence once he's confronted. But for now, police have another issue to address. It's still unclear what Sabre's role was in the murder. The phone recording could indicate that she handed Isaac the knife, so she could be equally as guilty for the crime as Isaac is. However, their 1 priority is to Convict Isaac and extract the truth of what happened that night. So they sit Sabre down for her one and only interrogation with plans to slowly build the pressure until she breaks down and confesses. Everything.

[E]

Start out at, let's say, 8:00 o' clock last night. What time did you get?

[G]

So I was at work and then I got off at 7. I asked for prominent 7:30. I had a few people coming at 10, really late. So I didn't get up until about 7:30. I went home. He was asleep when I got there, Isaac was. So I woke him up. I was like, don't want to go? He's like, yeah, you know, we'll just go for a few hours because I have. I'm supposed to open today. Well, once we got there, my brother was like, yeah, I want a drink with you. Like, just stay and then we'll make sure you're up in the morning. I just decided to sit on the couch because I was like, I know I gotta get up in the morning, you know, I gotta go to work. I'm not, I don't want to get too, like, wasted. So I just stand on the couch, couch. And they're still having a good time. Isaac's having a good time. And all of a sudden I hear this big like, you know, arguing. I was like, oh my gosh, please tell me it's not with Isaac. I go out and I hear like a bunch of different stories. Isaac and a few other people are saying that he accidentally pushed Horizon, which is my brother's girlfriend. Then my brother's sitting here saying he intentionally purged her. I don't think he had intentionally pushed her. He's not the type of person, he's not violent, especially with girls, because his mom was abused by his dad. So he knows what it's like and he's seen his mom go through all that. So I know he's not that type of person.

[B]

It's awfully odd that Sabre describes Isaac as non violent and doubles down on him not being the aggressor the entire night because all of the previous witnesses stated otherwise. Isaac has had a thorough history of abuse and everyone besides Sabre clearly remembers him the aggressor the entire night. There is a good chance that the reason why Sabra is defending Isaac is a far more deep rooted issue. Trauma bonding occurs when an individual suffers from cycles of abuse followed by positive reinforcement. This causes the victim to develop a strong emotional attachment to the abuser, which can result in a rationalization of the abuser's behavior. Considering the fact that Isaac has abused Sabre's mom. One might question if he's really the saint Sabre makes him out to be in their relationship. But for now, all that Sabre wants is to defend Isaac, because to her, it doesn't matter if he's a murderer.

[G]

And they're sitting here arguing. I'm trying to talk to Isaac to calm him down, because I'm, like, one of the only people that calm him down. I'm like, okay, let's just. You know, if anything, let's just go in your car, sit for, like, a couple hours, and then we can go home. Then they followed us outside. It was, like, 10 guys, all of my brother's friends, and this guy, I think his name is Clay. I don't want to be wrong. He goes, are you really starting problems again? And I think he might have thought maybe when I had my panic attack, that Isaac was starting some sort of drama. But he pushed Isaac. Isaac went flying back into a car. I tried to intervene, just trying to get Isaac away, because I didn't want to see my brother fight Isaac. I didn't want any of that to happen. They end up, like, back behind Isaac's car. They end up going down that hill. So I'm following him, trying to, you know, break it up somehow. I fall, and they're, like, trampling all over me. I have a big bruise on my knee. And Isaac, he got in the car, and he goes, sabre, come on, come on, come on. I didn't even know someone got stabbed until way after we left. And Isaac was like, I think I stabbed that dude. I think I stabbed him. I was like, oh, my God. Isaac was like, you literally ran away. Like, that's not what you should do. And I think we stopped at his friend's house because his friends live shortly down the street. He was slipping out because he was like, you know, he's like, oh, my God. I don't want to get in trouble. I don't want to get in trouble. Then he ended up falling asleep. So I had an alarm at 7 so I could try and wake up and get time to call someone and see if they were up at that time. And then at that time, that's when I hear pounding on our front door. And I walk out, and I. Isaac's mom was like, isaac needs to get out of here. There's a bunch of cops out here drawing their weapons. He's gotta go out.

[B]

It's clear Sabra doesn't intend on cracking. So detectives decide it's time to put the pressure on Sabra. And get her to confess.

[E]

You can't think of anything else that you forgot to tell us or didn't mention?

[G]

Not that I know of.

[C]

Okay.

[E]

What do you know, Justin?

[G]

I know him. Not like really well. I just know that him and Isaac were friends for a couple years.

[E]

How long were you at the house talking to him today? With Isaac?

[C]

Isaac?

[G]

Like five minutes? Five to ten minutes.

[A]

Hey you. And welcome. My name is Mike and I'm joined as always by my junior associate, Dirty Keith.

[B]

Heyo.

[A]

And this is the that chapter podcast where every Monday morning we have a brand new episode for you exclusively talking about the strangest, scariest, and most mysterious stories from around the world. Such as the Evangelista occult murders where the entire Evangelista family was found horrifyingly murdered. Was it related to the creepy occult life sized paper mache men found in the basement? Or was it a crazy axeman the family knew who had only just escaped an insane asylum?

[B]

Or how about the High Gate vampire, where from a gothic graveyard a terrifying figure was spotted it. This led to mass hysteria and eventually two notorious and hilarious vampire hunters attempting to handle it with crazy results.

[A]

So wherever you get your podcasts, join me and Keith every Monday morning for a new spooky tale or else. I think that'll do. All right.

[G]

Only five to ten minutes as far as I know. Like, I mean, then we were out there for a little bit and then we left.

[D]

I'm sure that somebody's already kind of explained things to you, right? So mother to mother, you love your children, right?

[G]

Yes, very much.

[D]

Okay. And you want to see your kids again someday, right? Because today somebody's actions made it so. A mother lost her son, a father lost his son, Somebody lost their boyfriend. Okay. Several friends lost another friend who bled out at the hands of someone that you care about. And you know something?

[G]

I. I really, I don't.

[D]

You were there.

[G]

Yeah, but I didn't. I didn't know he got stabbed.

[F]

I didn't.

[G]

I didn't know that until after he.

[C]

We left.

[D]

If you're trying to protect this man, you're gonna go down as an accomplice for murder.

[G]

I'm not, I promise.

[D]

You know something?

[G]

I got knocked down and I was on the floor or on the ground. And then I got up and I didn't. I didn't see anyone on the floor. I didn't see anyone else on the floor. I swear. I'm not trying to protect him.

[D]

So what did he say after he stabbed him? Because you guys drove away together, he had to have Said something.

[G]

He didn't. He really didn't. He said. I don't even think he said anything. He just got in the car. I got in the car and then we left. And then shortly after that, he said that he stopped.

[D]

I'm going to tell you that I talked to his parents, and they said that he's an explosive, angry, violent drunk.

[G]

He is. And he is. He's never been like. Like aggressive to me. He just. He gets aggressive and he'll like. He punched his back when she'll. He. He does stupid things when he's drunk. I. I'll be the first to admit that.

[E]

Listen, he died. He's dead. He's gone.

[G]

So I went in the house.

[E]

Your honesty today is imperative about what happened. Your honesty today is the. Is the paramount of what we need now.

[C]

Okay?

[E]

You're not telling us you're hiding some stuff back. Catch your protection techn. Right. Now listen to me. I spoke to your mother on the phone.

[D]

So did I.

[E]

You know he's violent against women, correct? He's been violent before against women, correct?

[D]

He was violent against your own mama.

[E]

Talking about Isaac, he.

[G]

So, yes, he did push my mom.

[E]

He did what?

[G]

He pushed my mom. Pushed your mom because he went to court for it. She punched him first, and then she. He pushed her, so. I will say that, yes. But he has never laid a hand on me. He's never done anything like that.

[E]

You told me earlier that you would never do that to a woman.

[F]

Correct?

[G]

I totally forgot about my mom. I'm so sorry.

[C]

How.

[E]

It's your mom. How can you forget about your mom? You're trying to protect him.

[G]

I'm not.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

I'm gonna tell you right now that my specialty is domestic violence, sexual assault, and crimes against children. And the living conditions that your children are in are a crime. A deplorable, sickening crime. I'm 35 years old and I could barely breathe in that house. There's dog feces everywhere. They're. The ammonia in that house is horrible. We've made a referral to have your children. Emergency room. I'm gonna tell you that. You know how I know? You're full of. You went to your mom's, you went to Justin's, all before you went back to the house. I talked to your mom.

[G]

I did go to my mom's. I totally forgot. I am so sorry.

[D]

Are you forgetting because you were drunk? Are you forgetting because you were high?

[G]

No.

[E]

You're forgetting because she doesn't want to tell us the truth. The only thing That I can have and that I can say about you right now is either she was lying and she's on the back of you, or she was scared. But she finally told us the truth.

[G]

I was scared.

[C]

Okay.

[E]

You knew that he threw the knives at Justin's house, correct?

[G]

Yes, and I apologize. I was scared.

[E]

Who had the gun at the party?

[G]

I. And I'm being honest to God, I didn't see a gun. I didn't know who had a gun. I know my brother has a gun registered in his name.

[E]

Did your brother have a gun?

[G]

I don't know. I didn't see one.

[C]

Okay.

[E]

What did you see about the stabbing?

[G]

I didn't see. And I'm being completely truthful on everything. I didn't see anyone get stabbed. I didn't see anyone fall to the floor. I didn't see anything. This is when I was. I think this. All of this stabbing happened when I was on the ground.

[D]

Well, is there anything else that you think that we should know about? Anything that you want the prosecutor to know? Because now's the time to make your case if you feel that you have one.

[E]

Would you like to write out an apology lawyer for lying to us about that?

[G]

Yes.

[B]

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like Sabra is going to crack anytime soon. However, her lying is just as bad as Isaac's, so convincing her shouldn't be much of a challenge. Additionally, her cathartic behavior only strengthened the case against Isaac as she revealed that they did in fact hide the knives at Justin's home, giving detectives another lie to confront Isaac with. So once and for all, using all the evidence they've collected for the last several days, detectives, sit Isaac down for a final interrogation.

[D]

We're gonna re Mirandize you since we've had a break in between. Do you know what your Miranda rights are? Okay, I'm gonna read them to you.

[B]

After reading Isaac his rights, he would recount everything that happened the night of the murder. We've heard his story multiple times now, so I'll fast forward through that portion of the interrogation.

[D]

So I'm gonna tell you the only thing you have left in this world is your integrity. You know what integrity is?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Your honesty. And I'm gonna tell you that I have found about 40 loopholes already in your story, and I know the truth. I'm not gonna ask you a question I already don't have the answer to, okay? That would make me a horrible detective. Been here since 3:30 this morning. The last thing I want is your bullshit, okay? I am giving you honesty. And I'm giving you the opportunity to come clean. Okay? If I go to the prosecutor and say he gave me a line of crap, you know what they're gonna do? They're gonna throw the book at you come court time. If I go to the prosecutor and I say, hey, this is a guy who made mistakes. Because we all make mistakes. We do it every single day. I'm not a perfect person. Dave's not a perfect person. We've done and seen some fucked up things, okay? What you did last night is fucked up. You killed somebody.

[C]

What?

[D]

He's dead.

[C]

And my daughter.

[D]

Yeah, he died at 8:31 this morning. The world lost a father. He leaves behind a nine and a half month old son named Jet. Okay, Somebody lost their son this morning. A mother and father lost their son. A girlfriend lost her boyfriend that she held compression on for several minutes waiting for a medic to get there to try and save his life. He died at Grant this morning. And you're facing murder charges. He did. Because you didn't stab him twice. You stabbed him multiple times. Way more than twice. And I've interviewed probably 15 or 16 people today that have painted a pretty gruesome picture involving you. This is your chance to be honest about it.

[C]

I'm just trying to get me to stop.

[D]

You get one shot at this and one shot only. I've talked to your mom. I know you wear a very violent, explosive person. I know you drink almost every weekend. You left her in the care and custody of your two children, Draco and Waylon, who are 13 months and 4 months old. I've been inside your bedroom. I've been inside your car. I've had a very deep conversation with your girlfriend, your girlfriend's mother and everyone that was at that cabin. You get one shot at this with me. And that's it. You want to start over.

[B]

With this brilliant confrontation, the detective successfully convinced Isaac to start again with his story. Just like in Sabre's interview, he already gave his version of events before that. So any mistakes he makes now will seal his fate.

[D]

Start at the very beginning. How did you end up there?

[C]

Ended up because Sabra wanted to go and I told her that I would go with her. And so we ended up going. But we've never got along, me and her brother. And of course her brother's friends aren't gonna like me if he don't like me. But he said that he was gonna be cool, calm, collected. I said, I'll do the same. And I was. Until everything blew up. And Once everything blows up, then I just blow up and I end up lacking out.

[D]

How much cocaine did you do last night?

[C]

I didn't do anything.

[D]

I know there was cocaine there. I have already found the cocaine.

[C]

I didn't do any.

[D]

Did you smoke weed?

[F]

No.

[D]

How much did you drink last night?

[C]

I think I drank a 12 pack of Miller. I took a couple shots of Hennessy and a bottle of Green. It's like green Sour Apple Snobs. There was like, a half a bottle of that.

[D]

Okay, so you drank a lot of alcohol knowing that you have an explosive personality when you're drunk. Okay. Was there some jealousy issues at this party last night?

[C]

Yeah, a little bit.

[D]

What happened?

[C]

Well, it's just her brother's friend. Well, her friend and her brother's friend Trey. I've always not liked him because she sits there and says, oh, he's like a brother. But then she got mad at me one time and said, oh, well, Trey's so hot, I'll just go him. So that's where I don't really trust him anymore. And so when he came, that's kind of where I got jealous.

[D]

Okay, so Sabra is talking to Trey. Right. Where are they together?

[C]

They're in hot tub. Okay.

[D]

And she starts having a panic attack because why?

[C]

She thought I was gonna be mad.

[B]

If Sabra had panic attacks just thinking that Isaac was going to be mad at her. One can question exactly how much abuse she dealt with to behave like this. Worse yet is the fact that Sabra still believed Isaac to be a saint, going as far as to cover up his murder.

[D]

So a scuffle ensues, and during this scuffle, Sabra tries to break it up. Right. Okay. And what happens to Sabra as she's trying to break this up?

[C]

She says she got trampled.

[D]

Who comes to run to her aid. Okay, so fair to say that you probably blacked out or. There's bits and pieces missing here.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So Dalton comes running over because his sister's now on the ground, and she has this tattoo that says, my brother's keeper. And they're. They're close. Right. And he is screaming at you guys to knock the off because his sister's now on the ground and Sabra is having some type of panic attack. Right. She goes to get in the car and she scrapes, screaming at you at this point. Right. Do you remember this?

[C]

No.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Is that when we start fighting on the hill?

[D]

And what happens on that hill?

[C]

On the hill, that's where I got pushed down.

[D]

Do you have Injuries that would corroborate. You saying you got pushed down? The scrapes on your side?

[C]

Yeah, scrapes all over my side. And I have a big knot right here where I got hit.

[D]

Okay, so you get pushed down this hill and then what?

[C]

Then I think we kept on going at it.

[D]

Who's we? Cuz we have about 20 or 22 people now that have been at this cabin.

[C]

I don't even know their names. I saw the video. Somebody clearly shoved you in the front, which started the, you know, the scuffle. This is about the one part I remember is getting pushed. Kind of gone from there until I got in my car.

[D]

And when you get in your car, what happens?

[C]

That's where I think I grabbed the knife. He was pulling on the door, I think.

[D]

I'll tell you that. I have a footprint that tells me they were trying to close the door. Do you remember any of that?

[E]

No.

[C]

That's right.

[D]

Okay. And where's Sabra?

[C]

She was just sitting in the car.

[D]

She got out of the car at any point?

[C]

I don't think so.

[D]

She paying attention to what you're doing there, or is she preoccupied with something?

[C]

I think she was watching Tiktoks on her phone.

[D]

Watching Tiktoks on her phone, knowing her boyfriend just stabbed somebody. It's pretty normal behavior, right? I mean, hey, you went home and took a nap like it was just another day in the park for you.

[C]

I was too drunk. I didn't really remember it when I get home.

[D]

But not too drunk to drive. Not too drunk to dispose of the murder weapon. Not too drunk to try and cover up your tracks. Did you know his name was Charlie? Yeah. You never met Charlie before that, did you? So you grabbed Charlie by the neck. And you didn't stab Charlie two times. You stabbed Charlie six times. The side of his neck, right here on his face. Twice in his side, once in his back. And somewhere in between his head and his neck, you left. You left Charlie to lay there and bleed out on the ground. Charlie didn't die right away, but Charlie, he died. He coded out in a trauma bay. He made it in an airplane to a hospital in Columbus, made it through the surgery. And then he could put. His heart gave out. And you know what? His kid isn't the only one left without a dad. Because Draco and Waylon aren't gonna have their dad either. They're not gonna have their mom either. She went to jail today.

[C]

What's she gonna do?

[D]

Complicity to murder. Because she knew and she didn't do anything about it. And I turned your kids over to the state earlier this afternoon because the living conditions in that house are deplorable as well. So they're not going to have a mother or a father. Does that change things for you? Does that put some things into perspective? Bet you weren't thinking about that when you threw the knife. All right, Isaac, you're going to stand up, put your hands behind your back. At this time, you're under arrest for murder.

[B]

At this point, Isaac has nothing more to say. And the body cam concludes shortly after. With so much evidence stacked against him and his girlfriend, the two were placed into custody as they awaited their trial. A year later, on August 26, 2024, Sabre Flag pled guilty to obstructing justice. This is a fifth degree felony that comes with a maximum of 12 months in prison and a $2,500 fine. As for Isaac Pence, he was convicted of one count of murder, two counts of felonious assault, and one count of tampering with evidence. A month later, on September 25th, he was finally sentenced to 18 years to life in prison, where he will not see the light of day for a long, long time. If you're interested in watching our uncensored, extended two 4 hour coverages of these original cases, make sure to check out our Patreon linked in the description.

[A]

Hey you and welcome. My name is Mike and I'm joined as always by my junior associate, Dirty Keith.

[B]

Heyo.

[A]

And this is the that Chapter podcast where every Monday morning we have a brand new episode for you exclusively talking about the strangest, scariest and most mysterious stories from around the world, such as the Evangelista occult murders where the entire Evangelista family was found horrifyingly murdered. Was it related to the creepy occult life sized paper mache men found in the basement? Or was it a crazy axeman the family knew who had only just escaped an insane asylum?

[B]

Or how about the High Gate Vampire, where from a gothic graveyard a terrifying figure was spotted. This led to mass hysteria and eventually two notorious and hilarious vampire hunters attempting to handle it with crazy results.

[A]

So wherever you get your podcasts, join me and Keith every Monday morning for a new spooky tale or else. I think that'll do. Alright.