Can People Change?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Dr. Laura Call of the Day

Episode Title: Can People Change?
Host: Dr. Laura Schlessinger
Air Date: September 26, 2025
Theme: Examining whether people can fundamentally change, particularly in the context of long-term marriages with abusive dynamics.

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Episode Overview

In this emotionally charged episode, Dr. Laura Schlessinger takes a call from a listener named Jim, who is struggling with the enduring challenges in his 20+ year marriage. Jim seeks insight into whether people can truly change, recounting his history of filing for divorce three times and ongoing marital strife rooted in his wife’s anger and past abuse. Dr. Laura’s no-nonsense approach surfaces, as she presses for details and offers her trademark blunt and ethical perspective on human behavior, responsibility, and the limits of romantic hope.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Caller Background & Relationship History

• Jim (55) and his wife (51) have been married for over 20 years, with two adult children.
• Both are in their first and only marriage.
• The caller has initiated divorce proceedings three times but has not followed through.
• The marriage was fraught with “anger issues” and physical abuse early on, which transitioned into chronic verbal abuse.

The Nature and Course of the Abuse

• Physical abuse: Occurred at the start of the marriage but reportedly stopped after Jim confronted his wife; she sought individual counseling for this (04:47).
• Verbal abuse: Continued for years, with yelling aimed at Jim but not at the children (05:08).
• Dr. Laura questions whether the children, despite not being yelled at directly, witnessed their father being demeaned and considers this damaging to parental respect (05:22–05:44).

Dr. Laura’s Tough Probing

• Dr. Laura pushes back on Jim’s claim that he didn’t see signs of anger during their four years of dating, expressing skepticism that the temper issues emerged only after marriage:

  “You really want me to buy your story that in four years she never showed temper? Really? I'm not going to buy it.” (02:55)

• She differentiates between staying in a marriage and maintaining a relationship with an abusive partner, deeming the latter “neurotic behavior.” (04:17)

Sticking with the Marriage

• Jim says he stayed out of love, but Dr. Laura challenges this, saying,

  “I love her, therefore I'm going to stay and let her be abusive to me. Doesn't sound healthy. Does it sound healthy to you?” (09:25)

• Dr. Laura questions whether repeated divorce filings were used to manipulate change, but Jim insists they were genuine attempts to leave (10:01).

Acknowledgement of Mutual Toxicity

• Jim admits that as the marriage wore on, “we both started doing the bickering. It just became a very toxic relationship.” (11:01)
• Dr. Laura latches on to the word "toxic" as a summary of their interactions (11:12).

Infidelity

• Jim discloses an affair lasting about a year, four years prior, which his wife now knows about (11:20–11:55).

The Central Question—Can People Change?

• Jim finally asks:

  “Can it be? Can somebody change and become the person they were when you were dating?... Or am I just being overly hopeful and wanting things to be like they once were?” (12:07)

• Dr. Laura’s Core Message:

  "People only change when they're desperately in desire to make a difference in how they perceive the world, themselves and other people and how they behave. You haven't indicated that she's desperate to change... People only change when they damn well want to, not because you drag them into therapy or you spend time hoping—that's the truth.” (12:22)

• She adds a pointed reminder about the brevity of life and the dangers of wasting it out of fear (12:42).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Denial and Early Signs:

  “You really want me to buy your story that in four years she never showed temper? Really? I'm not going to buy it.”
  — Dr. Laura (02:55)

• On Abuse and Perceived Love:

  “I love her, therefore I'm going to stay and let her be abusive to me. Doesn't sound healthy. Does it sound healthy to you?”
  — Dr. Laura (09:25)

• On Toxic Patterns:

  “We both started doing the bickering. It just became a very toxic relationship.”
  — Jim (11:01)

• On Change:

  "People only change when they're desperately in desire to make a difference in how they perceive the world, themselves and other people and how they behave... People only change when they damn well want to, not because you drag them into therapy or you spend time hoping—that's the truth.”
  — Dr. Laura (12:22)

• On Preventing Regret:

  “Let me remind you that you're more than halfway through your life. You're going to get older, infirm, and then die. Don't waste time because you're scared.”
  — Dr. Laura (12:42)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:00 – Jim introduces his marital struggles and the history of divorce filings.
• 02:20–02:55 – Dr. Laura challenges Jim’s account of not seeing anger during dating.
• 04:50–05:08 – Discussion of ending physical abuse but ongoing verbal abuse.
• 05:21–05:44 – Dr. Laura probes the family impact of witnessing the mother's anger.
• 09:25 – Dr. Laura challenges Jim's assertion of “love” as justification for staying.
• 11:01 – Jim admits to mutual toxicity and infidelity.
• 12:07–12:42 – The central question of whether people can change and Dr. Laura’s conclusive answer.

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Conclusion

This episode highlights Dr. Laura’s incisive, ethical approach—stripping away rationalizations for enduring abuse and offering a blunt reality check about human change: it can only occur with genuine, personal motivation. Through probing questions and pointed observations, she encourages listeners not to waste precious years hoping others will change, but to recognize difficult truths and act with self-respect and clarity.

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Useful for listeners seeking:

• Advice on confronting long-standing relationship issues
• Understanding the limits of hope and the importance of accountability
• A candid look at personal responsibility in the context of marital strife

Transcript

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[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

To the People thanks for listening to my Call of the Day podcast. You can hear my live radio program Monday through Friday from 2 to 5pm Eastern time on Sirius XM Triumph 111. Jim, welcome to the program.

[Caller]

Hi doctor.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

Yeah, hi. I'm good. How are you? How can I help?

[Caller]

So I want to say first, thank you. I picked up your books a week ago and as a male, it's somewhat validated that the feelings I've had over I think the course of my 20 plus year marriage are not invalid. The reason I called were is I filed for divorce three times.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

Okay, let's start at the beginning. How old are you? How old is she? How long have you been married? Any kids? If so, how many? How old? Give me the whole background.

[Caller]

55 and 51 respectively. And adult children.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

Okay. And is this your first and only marriage? And hers too.

[Caller]

Correct.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

And what went south?

[Caller]

It's been rough the entire time. The marriage?

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

Well, not while you were dating. When you were dating, you thought she was the best thing in the world.

[Caller]

Yes, I did.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

Well, were you mistaken? Did you miss something?

[Caller]

There were anger issues and the marriage started off with a lot of yelling and I received some physical abuse. It went away. That resolved, but the anger.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

And so when you were dating, she would get violent with you and yell at you, but it stopped or it slowed down?

[Caller]

That started during marriage. It didn't happen during dating.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

So how many years or minutes were you dating her?

[Caller]

Four years.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

You really want me to buy your story that in four years she never showed temper? Really? I'm not going to buy it.

[Caller]

Rare, rarely.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

I don't buy it. And then it just all escalated accidentally after she wore that pretty white dress. But okay, what kinds of Things was she angry about?

[Caller]

It's obviously hard to reflect back that far, but there were times I didn't pay her enough attention, and then I. It was probably a lot of small stuff. I mean, toilet, literally the toilet seat sort of stuff. The dishes weren't put in correctly, that sort of thing.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

Okay, and how many babies did you have with her?

[Caller]

2.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

Okay, so you file for divorce three times. So each time you file, what happens?

[Caller]

I initiated conversations because I wanted to try to save. I really wanted to try to save the marriage. We've been through lots of counseling over the time, and I don't understand.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

You want to save the marriage. Is that separate from staying with her? Saving a marriage is sort of an idea. Continuing to live with a person who's abusive is neurotic behavior.

[Caller]

Well, that was 20 years ago and was revenue.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

So for. It all stopped. What stopped?

[Caller]

The physical. What are you talking. The hitting.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

Oh, so she stopped hitting you early on in the marriage. Why? How did you get her to stop hitting you?

[Caller]

Just told her. Was that acceptable? And she did some individual counseling work.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

And so she stopped hitting you, but she didn't stop yelling?

[Caller]

Correct.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

Gosh. Was this yelling like every day?

[Caller]

It felt like it, yes.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

I mean, did she yell, like, at the children a lot, too?

[Caller]

No. Never?

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

No.

[Caller]

Never? Nope.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

So the children didn't experience it aimed at her? They experienced it. Their mother yelling at their father, making him look like an idiot. Right.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

Isn't that true? What else do kids think when the mother's always ripping the father? They think he's an idiot.

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[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

Early on, kids don't understand that's bad behavior. They just think you're an idiot. Mommy had to yell at you. Okay, so three times you gave it yet another shot to see that she would stop being abusive. And each time something told you that maybe this time how did she convince you she would stop being abusive? How did she do that?

[Caller]

Well, again, the physical abuse stopped at the beginning of the marriage.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

I'm not talking about that. We left that a long time ago. Three times you stayed. So my question is how did she convince you she would stop being abusive?

[Caller]

She did not convince me. I.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

Then why did you stay?

[Caller]

Because I love her.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

And oh for God's sake. Usually hear women say that. Well, don't tell me you love somebody who's been abusive. Then you're not telling me the whole true story. I love her, therefore I'm going to stay and let her be abusive to me. Doesn't sound healthy. Does it sound healthy to you?

[Caller]

Can I? Let me backtrack. There's some context you haven't heard, but.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

I could, ah, to help explain why three times you filed for divorce. Was filing for the divorce to threaten her, to get her, to manipulate her, to get her to change? Yes or no?

[Caller]

No, I don't think it was.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

So you filed. The purpose of filing was not to get her to change. It was to do what?

[Caller]

I was done. I had time away and I think I went through.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

Okay, so what got you undone? How did she convince you that she wasn't going to be like that anymore? How did she do that so that you stayed and. Don't give me the. It sounds very sad. It sounds like a dog that's being kicked and hit who's still loyal to its master. When I hear somebody talk to me about abuse in a relationship and they talk about love, that's not a healthy love. That's a dependency and a fear. That's not awe, admiration and respect. Unless you've left out a whole bunch of stuff, which would explain it better.

[Caller]

I've gotten left out a whole bunch of stuff. I would say 10 years into the marriage, I also started doing. We both started doing the bickering. It just became a very toxic relationship.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

Toxic.

[Caller]

I think.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

Thank God we have toxic. Okay, so how can I help you today?

[Caller]

I guess I've tried to understand it. I think one important point you need to know is at about 20 years, I was. Listen, I was with another woman for about a year.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

Oh, so you left and then came back.

[Caller]

It was no fair.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

You're still out. Oh, so you were. You had a secret affair for a year, correct?

[Caller]

Yes.

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[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

And when did that end, if ever.

[Caller]

It edited. 21. I'm trying to think. I'm trying to think back. It's been four years.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

Okay. Does she know about this?

[Caller]

She's aware. Oh, yeah. Okay.

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

Your question for today is what? This is all fascinating. Your question today is what.

[Caller]

Can it be? Can somebody change and become the person they were when you were dating? Getting back to your original question, or am I just being overly hopeful and wanting things to be like they once were?

[Dr. Laura Schlessinger]

The latter. People only change when they're desperately in desire to make a difference in how they perceive the world, themselves and other people and how they behave. You haven't indicated that she's desperate to change. So. People only change when they damn well want to, not because you drag them into therapy or you spend time hoping that's the truth. And let me remind you that you're more than halfway through your life. You're going to get older, infirm, and then die. Don't waste time because you're scared. 1-800-375-2872. You're just a click away from some terrific deals being offered by companies that get the Dr. Laura stamp of approval. Visit DrLaura.com Click on Sponsors to take advantage of the special Discounts available to Dr. Laura listeners like you Shoes aren't really built to last anymore. Seriously. Some footwear barely survives a season, but L.L. bean doesn't chase trends. They've been crafting quality boots for over a century. With full grain leather, durable rubber bottoms and triple needle stitching, Bean boots are meant to last and built to easily handle the great outdoors. Each pair becomes more personal, more distinctive and uniquely yours. L.L. bean boots are simply best worn. Find your pair at llbean. Com.