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Dr. Osborne’s Zone
Diet, Mental Health & Mold Exposure A Journey to Healing with Judy Cho
00:42:25
In this enlightening discussion with Judy Cho, NTP, Dr. Osborne explores the intersection of diet, mental health, and environmental factors, particularly mold exposure. Judy Cho is board certified in holistic nutrition and a certified nutritional...
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- [00:06]
A
You unlock this door with the key of compassion. Beyond it is another world. A world of science, a world of common sense, a world of sanity. You're moving into a land of both empathy and ethics, of nutritional knowledge and empowerment. You've just crossed over to Dr. Osborne's zone. Thanks so much for joining me.
- [00:33]
B
I know. Excited. This is so exciting.
- [00:35]
A
Yeah. Here we are. This year we're at Malachi's message gala. So, you know, that's why we're all dolled up. We're dolled up for you. But, you know, this is a mold conference where we come together and we raise money for mold awareness and we raise money to help people get out of their mold. Right. And keep their sanity. So thank you because I appreciate you coming, I appreciate you being here, but I really appreciate your expertise and I want to dive in a little bit on what you've seen because I know you've gone through the traditional shoemaker training route and you've looked into a lot of that, but you've also gone deep into diet with a lot of these people. So I'd like you to share, if you don't mind, share your story. What led you down the path to Carnivore?
- [01:21]
B
Yeah. So I was plant based for 12 years and I had a successful career as a management consultant and I got really sick. I started having depression and suffering from an eating disorder and I even went to therapy and not one person told me it was diet related. And a mix of having a new baby, breastfeeding round the clock, and then getting on antibiotics because of mastitis, I got really sick and I was still using my eating disorder behaviors and I wasn't sleeping enough, you know, all the things that we need for lifestyle. And I had a breakdown and no one understood what happened. But I went to sleep one day and then I woke up and I had no memory and I don't remember what happened, but this is what I'm repeating from my family. And I was just acting off, like I didn't want to breastfeed. And we have a psychiatrist in our family and they reached out to him saying, she's acting off. And so he said, take her to the hospital. They did an interview, I guess with me and they deemed that I wasn't fit to be on my own. And so they put me on a 72 hour hold so I was unsafe for my own free will. And I was in a hospital. And in there they weren't 100% sure what happened, but they put me on antidepressants, antipsychotics and they said I was suffering likely from major depression, postpartum depression, and they didn't know what to do with me, so they sort of let me go home. They're like, we don't know when she's going to get her memory back. And again, I'm just repeating everything I heard. And they said she should probably go to intensive eating disorder care. And so I left my son in Los Angeles and I went with my husband back to Austin to go into a 12 hour facility every single day to start going through treatment. And somewhere in the midst of that, I woke up. So I just remember talking with my brother in Los Angeles and they were, I guess I don't even know what we were talking about. And then all of a sudden it was like a snap of a finger and I was just like, what is going on? And then I started, I was just back to normal, but I didn't remember so much of what had happened. And I stopped nursing. So I never experienced what it felt like to stop nursing with my first son because it just happened and I lost my memory. My son, by the time I woke up, he was on formula and there was just a lot of pain and wounds. And then I went through the eating disorder facility and again, no one told me in there that it was my diet. And so I just tried to be the best student to get out of there so I could get my son back. And I would eat the five square meals. Mindful eating, intuitive eating, stop when you're full and eat the rainbow or the like a mix of carbohydrates, fat, but they were highly processed still. And I would have to sit with the feelings of like they would challenge you with a cupcake, for example. And I would have to sit there and with all the emotions of this is going to make me fat, I'm feeling anxious. I would have to sit there and be okay with it. And until I was okay with it, then I wasn't healed. And so I did all of the things, but eventually I would fall and then I would go back to my eating disorder. And this time like, there's a lot on the line, like if I get too sick again, I'm going to lose my son. And for some reason I would still struggle. And then my brother ended up doing a keto diet. I thought it was crazy. I thought he would die of heart disease. And so I started looking it up and by that time I was on disability or short term disability from work. And I started looking it up and I realized I was the one that was wrong, at least with my low fat version of plant based. And so I started a ketogenic diet, but plant based. So I did big bowl salads with like a lot of olive oil and sometimes I would have eggs and sometimes I would have a little bit of tuna. But again, like it was a little bit better. Like the duration of not binging and purging was a little bit longer, but eventually I would fall back into it. And then in the midst of all of that, there was one point where a friend said to me, why don't you try this diet called the carnivore diet, where it's all meat. And I thought it was crazy because since being plant based, I also had this extra love for animals. And I said, no, I would never do that. And then it was just one moment in the bathroom where she had planted that seed. And I was so desperate because I felt like I can't do this anymore. I don't want to necessarily live anymore. I have a child and yet I'm still at these behaviors. Why am I so broken? And so I said, screw it, I'm just going to try this diet because what else do I have? I've been on the meds, I've tried the keto, I've tried the mindful eating, I've tried the therapy and I'm not fixed. And maybe I am just really broken. So I tried Carnivore and it was crazy. I was literally going to just do it for a week, maybe two. And in those two weeks, the desire from my physical body to go and binge was gone. And I used to, my husband would write me post it notes like, please don't go, like please, I love you, please be strong. And nothing would stop me from going on benders at night or binging. And it's probably because of lack of nutrition. But once I ate all meat, it changed. Where that desire to go out was gone. And yes, there was like the I want to cope with food still. Like it's still my addiction and I feel like I still need to turn to food because of coping or escaping. But the physical desire to go and get food disappeared. And that's when I knew there's something to this. And so I just stayed on it because it was the only thing that was making me feel better for the first time in for however long I was sick. And as I stayed on Carnivore, there were moments where I fell. But it was very few and far between the first year and that's when I realized, oh, I definitely had a sugar addiction. And as I cleaned my microbiome and I worked on my gut and healed my gut, I started looking into the science and I went back to nutritional therapy school and I did a lot of things because I just wanted to understand. My psychiatrist, when I asked what happened to me or is some of this nutritionally related, they always said no. And so I didn't understand how meat, that was the only thing I removed from my diet and then bringing it back how it healed me or was healing me. And so as I brought back Carnivore or and followed an all meat diet, I just looked into the science. I read several keto books and it just made so much sense. And then I went back to school and then I just became an advocate for the diet because as I went I literally would go into the fda, the USDA and I would look up every single meat, every single broccoli and avocado and look at the nutrition and then look at anti nutrients and how it affects your microbiome. And every time I would learn something new, I would get upset because it's like we've been lied to. And so yeah, it was just this long period of learning and then this disillusionment and then finding the truth and then wanting to share because my background is in management consulting where we create PowerPoints and we share stories to C suite members and tell them how their company's doing. So I started doing that with nutrition. And so that's how I landed on Carnivore. And then I opened up a practice where I was starting to work with some of the sickest people. It wasn't just people that were eating disordered and after one or two years. So we would do gut healing, I would get them on some protocols and they would eat like the cleanest versions of Carnivore. So maybe just grass finished or non aged so there's less histamines and MCAS related issues. And we would work on the gut and there was a subset that wouldn't heal. And I just thought maybe they're cheating, you know, maybe it's, they're not following it. Like, well, why aren't they getting the healing that I did? And so I knew that some of it was mind body too, but there was this one client that. And so I ended up going down these rabbit holes of maybe it's mineral balance, right? Maybe it's that people aren't balancing their minerals because there's a lot of people that say that. But I definitely think it's mold related now, knowing what I know. But I went down these specific rabbit holes. And then there was one client who ended up doing a urinary mycotoxin test, and she lived in a basement. And her test, I remember, like, the test is all red and green, and then hers were all black. And then she's like, I have mold and I need a protocol. And so I just remember going through research after research of, like, what are all the big mold people say about mold and how to detox? And so then I went on, like, the, you know, the. I won't name names, but like, certain supplement protocols of mold detoxing and use certain natural binders, and she didn't heal enough. And so then I dug more, and I ended up running into SIRS, or chronic inflammatory response syndrome, and Dr. Shoemaker's work. And then that's sort of how I landed in mold. And then the. The people that trusted me the most in our practice, I asked them to test for a lot of the SIRS markers, like the genetic type or the urinary mycotoxin test back then. And every single person that was not healing from Carnivore, they were suffering from an environmental illness, and it was specifically mold. And now we're finding a little bit of Lyme, too, with it. But that's how I fell into mold. It was. It was a subset of Carnivore. So people mostly find carnivore. So of course there's like the biohackers, like, I want to live the longest, and I'm going to follow the trends, but that's not the people I normally work with. The people I usually work with are the people that are so sick and tired of being sick and tired. They've been to 20 different doctors, spends hundreds of thousands of dollars, have been labeled with multiple autoimmune or undiagnosable autoimmune, and they're still not better. They're on all the pain medications and steroids, and so they, out of desperation, try Carnivore. And then from there, there's that subset that doesn't get better. And that subset are the people that I am so sure are suffering from mold illness.
- [12:13]
A
Yeah. And that's been the trend then for you. Like, it's mold.
- [12:18]
B
Yes.
- [12:19]
A
How prevalent?
- [12:21]
B
Gosh. In our practice now. So it's a little nuanced, and I just want to paint that picture. So there are groups that will do, like, beginners Carnivore, and that's not the people that join us. And people Will use a lot of my YouTube content or podcast information or the books that I've written, and they will get our free elimination guide. So it's people that are pretty much like advanced carnivore or have tried Carnivore for a while, and then it doesn't work enough. And so then they come to us. Some of them have heard about SIRS now or mold illness. So then they'll say, I think I have mold illness. I'd like to get tested. But then there's a subset that's will come to us and say, hey, I still have gut issues, or my autoimmune antibodies aren't going down. Like, I've heard from the rest of the carnivore community, I need more help. And then we will work on gut protocols or other things so that they don't have to do mold. But I would say of the subset that it's carnivore is not working enough. I think over 80% probably is suffering from some type of mold illness.
- [13:20]
A
And in that subset, what are they struggling with? Like, what are their biggest symptoms that you see?
- [13:27]
B
Brain fog. So it's interesting. There's difference in people, but I would say the biggest thing is. So there's a subset that has a lot of pain. And obviously it could be a mix of both, but lots of pain, joint pain, fatigue, lots of tiredness, can't really do much, can't really exercise. They're likely not getting enough oxygen in their system. And then there's a lot of mental illness. What I found so fascinating is we have a subset of people that have been diagnosed with either major depression, bipolar disorder, some type of mental illness, and they all have sirs. So I just wonder, was it ever really a mental illness issue? But more. And they believe the mental illness issue because their parents or their grandparents also had a mood disorder. And it's like, no, but the mold with the genetic type, maybe it was that grandparent too that was also suffering from mold illness. And instead they were diagnosed with, you need to go see a psychiatrist. It's just unfortunate.
- [14:28]
A
Yeah. I mean, mold mimics a lot of things, doesn't it?
- [14:31]
B
It's a multisystem, multi symptom. So you will have multiple symptoms. It could be hormone, lack of sleep, highly stressed, mood imbalances, gut issues, skin issues. It's literally everything. And then all the systems. So all the systems get impacted. And so what we see or what I've seen in the wellness space, because I wasn't. I mean, I didn't grow up in the wellness space. So I didn't care about nutrition, I didn't care about wellness. All I was in the business world and then I got sick and then I had to care about it. And so what I see trends in the wellness space and there's a subset that will think it's just minerals, right, or it's just hormones, or it's just that you're highly stressed and you have high levels of cortisol, or it's that you have mold illness and it's affecting your antidiuretic hormone which is impacted by your pituitary. And your pituitary is the one that determines the release of antidiuretic hormone, which if that marker is imbalanced, you will feel thirsty, you will pee all the time, you will feel electrolyte imbalances. And, and when you're eating carbohydrates, you don't notice the imbalances as much because you have extra water in your system. But when you eat keto or low carb or carnivore, you have less water retention and so you feel the electrolyte imbalances more. So when people tell me I've been carnivore or keto for X amount of years and I still cannot balance my minerals, I know that's an indication that they may have an imbalance in adh, which can be likely because of mold. And so there's all these interesting things. Same thing with hormones. The master hormone that gets impacted is melanocyte stimulating hormone. And then all your androgens get affected. So when people tell me I have low testosterone, yes, lots of modern day things affect testosterone, but it's also because of mold. And same thing with DHEA and other hormones. Not balancing your cortisol gets impacted when your body's in this constant fight or flight. Well, that's what mold does to your body. The mold, its natural point in life is to degrade something that's dying to bring new life. And so if it's in your body, obviously it's going to impact your cortisol levels and cause stress on the body because the body really wants to heal from this. But there's a subset of people that cannot heal alone with mold. I think even if they get out of a bad building, a lot can heal from just getting out of a bad building. But sometimes we need additional supports like binders and detox supports as well.
- [17:02]
A
What do you find is the most helpful for those people that they're out of their building? And you're sure that they're not still in mold, because then there's that subset too, right? People that leave mold for mold. What do you find is helping them the most?
- [17:22]
B
So getting out of the building is such a big one. I think the other one is using a type of binder. So if they can get support. So if mold or water damaged buildings causes issues, and it's not just fungal, it also releases bacteria, so endotoxins, actinomycetes, fungus, and then there's the VOCs and stuff. But if you can have a support, because our modern world is also really toxic. Imagine you're drinking water that has fluoride and all these heavy metals and. And then you're eating GMO plants with all these pesticides and antimicrobials. So you're already against so much, and then you're dealing with mold illness. So if you can take a binder, and I guess it would really depend on the person, like, how strong of a binder. But we have seen efficacy with cholestyramine. Now, I know it's a really strong binder, but if you're eating high fat, you can probably tolerate it better. We've seen its efficacy because it will stop the bile in your gut and then in the bile when you eat a higher fat or if you eat a meal, it'll pull the biotoxins from the bile and then you'll poop it out. But we don't see everybody heal from that. And I do think some of it is also the mind body. So we have seen a correlation with people that are really sick with mold illness, have a lot of trauma in their past. So as a child, they've had some significant traumas. Mom wasn't around, dad wasn't around, they didn't have good attachment or other things have happened. And so their view of the world is a lot worse than the average person. And so they might wake up and they're already. Their mind is racing, their cortisol is like, pouring out of their system. And we have found that even balancing that, like, the view of the world changes your values in the world, changes your desire of I just want health and love and connection and finding peace and not focusing on the negatives. We've seen people heal so much with that. So we also also have a mindbody program for that reason. But you have to change. If you wake up and then you feel a little achy and you're like, oh, no, I must be experiencing mold. And then you start looking around and you're looking for mold you have a part of your brain called the reticular activating system, and it is literally looking for what you are thinking. So if you believe that there's mold in the room and that's making you sick and that's why you're not well, your reticulator activating system is going to look for that and scan it in all of the things you do all day long, whether you're hyper aware of it or not. And it's going to validate what you believe. So why not use that reticular activating system to then view that I can heal from this illness, that I am in a much cleaner environment, that I am taking my binders, whichever ones I can tolerate, or I'm doing a detox or I'm sweating or doing all the things, but I am focusing on that I am going to heal. This is the answer, and I'm going to heal. But the hardest thing is, I think with mold illness, it also impacts your brain. So it's harder to not be in that loop. But we see people that will one day be strong enough, and then the next day they're kind of like, this isn't working. And then they start falling down, this negative spin. And so I think mindset really works. Binders, if you can have any amount of movement, I know not everyone can move, but if you can move, you just help your lymphs and the body just sort of be able to get more oxygen in the system, get more of your hemoglobins moving around so that you have oxygen in your body, because that's something that mold deprives you of. So if you could work on all of those things, that would be really good. And I think this one's kind of hard. I don't bring it up a ton because I want to be mindful, but I think connection is really important. So you have to have strong relationships. Like, you have to have a strong why to continue. And we see families where especially the husband doesn't believe the wife, and then there's turmoil. We've even had couples where they're like, do you know a therapist that we could talk to? Because my wife or husband doesn't believe me. And so you can see that inner turmoil where the patient wants to heal and the patient is so bent on healing and believing, and then let's say they have a bad day, then it's so easy for the significant other to go, yeah, it's because it's bs, it's not a real disease. And then your confidence in the illness starts dropping or the possible healing. So I think a lot of that really matters. Having a strong support system, community, to know that when you're struggling, like, hey, I've been there, you'll be fine. I promise you, you can heal from this and doing some of that Mind Body and then any detox protocols you may need or like nutritional sufficiency stuff that you've talked about on my podcast.
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A
Yeah, so Mind Body, you see a lot of that, though. So you said you had a program. What kinds of things are you doing?
- [22:09]
B
So our Mind Body program covers everything. So because I struggled with an eating disorder, I didn't know that I thought I had an eating disorder because I just wanted to be thin. I grew up in Los Angeles. It was the cool thing to do is to be thin. But I realized shortly after that I was using it as an escape, a way to cope, a way to deal with stuff where I wasn't giving myself self care. And as I went through my therapy, I learned that, for example, I had childhood or core wounds where I didn't feel like I was enough. And so I would then try to be a perfectionist from it. And in that perfectionism, because no one can be perfect, I would that level of stress and anxiety and not being able to perform, I would then turn to my coping strategy, which was food, and then I would binge and purge and go through this dopamine cycle and shame and then go through it all over again. So we in our Mind Body program, we know of that. So we definitely believe that people that have trauma in their past, if they've never gone through it, forgiven people or processed it properly, and they're just sort of putting it under the rug, they still have it. Like, the body still keeps the score, and maybe it's manifesting as autoimmune. What's so interesting is there's a theory out there. There's a subset of people that believe that for people that have no good boundaries, their body will create antibodies, an autoimmune illness, so that it physically makes them have to separate from people because they're not able to have a strong boundary. And so we definitely touch on diet, lifestyle, sleep, all of those good things. And then we also talk about how if you have a childhood wound and there's five, I'll touch on a couple. There's. You could have a wound of trust. So maybe when you had some friends and they broke your trust, and then now you have a hard time trusting people. So the level you can be intimate with someone else may be impacted. There's some called prioritization. So maybe your parents were so busy working all the time, or they were dealing with their own stuff, so they weren't really around and they didn't make you feel prioritized. So then you learn to not need other people or that you prioritize yourself and you just figure things out on your own. There's also one of belonging. So maybe you got bullied when you were a child. And so then you learn that maybe if I just don't share my opinion, then maybe I will belong then. Or maybe if I'm just like the wall on the. The flower on the wall, then maybe no one will not think that I belong. And so we carry these wounds with us, and we sort of use these wounds to sort of, you know, have our daily marching orders. But it's in those where we're not being fully honest with ourselves that people then are living almost double lives. And then they start getting sick too. And so we talk about core wounds, we talk about family relationships, trauma, we talk about diet, nutrition, and then we talk about all the tools then to support that. So we believe that core wounds, if you have them and you've never dealt with them, a lot of people then with the discomfort you feel when you're older, you turn to an addiction. And it's not that it starts as an addiction. Your body learns like, oh, Judy liked food and that there was a dopamine kick. And I'm going to remember that neural pathway because every time Judy feels sad, I can go back to that. And that's the quick response. And so we teach our brain to go that way, but until it becomes an addiction. And so it's, I think a lot of addiction and mood imbalances is because something's wrong that we're not trying to uncover. And so we try to break all of those things and open it up and we talk about family dynamics. And then the healing part of it is all the tools to rewire to basically change your habit of going to the food or going to whatever addiction. Figuring out, are there some toxic relationships in your life or are there communication patterns that are ideal for you? And so we talk through all that stuff and, and then we just make people very hyper aware of like, where is your true feelings in this moment? And are you being honest? Are you having proper boundaries? Are you speaking up for yourself? And so that then with illness, you have less stress, you have less cortisol, because you're not just swallowing all your feelings and storing it Inside you so that maybe, hopefully your immune system can start really healing. Because if you're in a stress state, your immune system is weakened. And then in addition to that, our first line of defense from our immune system is our mast cells. It's a type of white blood cell. And that mast cell is also in our brains. So if we feel like we were slighted or that we're not speaking our truth or that we're not having proper boundaries and we feel like we're being used or abused, we start to feel that in our system we release cortisol, but our mast cells also start getting activated. And if you think about mast cells, it's all the auto, not the autoimmune, but the allergenic type of symptoms that everyone gets with, oh my gosh, I ate chicken and I feel sensitive or I ate pork and that gives me a histamine response. No, it's normally that your toxic bucket is super full now and could it be that some of it is that you are not taking care of your mind body and so it's super full and then now add mold to that and it's just filling over. So we think it's the one chicken, but I highly doubt it's just the chicken.
- [27:24]
A
Yeah, yeah. It's always multifactorial, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that what you found with Carnivore in your practice, that it just as a diet covers so many bases of it's low histamine, it's no gluten, it's low oxalate and it just fits a lot of of the trigger points that are very common in people that are struggling with mold.
- [27:49]
B
Yes. I think that if we think of diet and nutrition as one facet for healing and it's a big one. So if we don't eat, we will die. Right. So if we can get the most nutrient dense bioavailable, so the most nutritionally assimilating nutrients for from our foods and meat is the easiest to digest. Right. With plants you need to either cook it down or you need, if you eat it raw, it really affects your gut. And some people can even do the conversion of beta carotene to vitamin A, for example. But if you eat meat, which is in its most easiest form that our bodies can assimilate, even if you have bad gut dysfunction, that helps the nutrition. So your body even has a fighting chance, that your immune system even has a fighting chance. And then from there all modern disease is low grade inflammation. And if you think about low grade inflammation, it's like the seed oils we're eating, the gluten that you mentioned, the seeds, the grains that we eat that are stored in these places that breed mold in itself. And so if we can reduce the noise from even our foods so that when our immune system is lined against our, our intestinal wall to decipher is this food a friend or a foe or this protein that's coming in, that if we can just reduce that noise by eating a purely elimination diet of an all meat carnivore diet, then we can see, well, what else? Or is it just the diet that you're suffering from? Is your autoimmune just diet related or is there something else? And that's the power, in my opinion, of why we use carnivore. It can gives you the most nutrient density. It's super simple. Like you don't have to remember, wait, which plant of this, you know that can I eat or not? And then beyond that it's, are you just suffering from food illnesses? And if it's not, that's how we're getting to mold so quickly because we're like, yeah, you've done beef salt and water for a few months and you're still not moving the needle enough. And you've done all the gut supports that we know pretty much work for most people. Like at that point. There something beyond that?
- [29:56]
A
Yeah, yeah. So you, you're really finding good success or not success. Right. I mean, one way. And again, back to what you said earlier, the not success is a huge portion of those people that are either emotionally traumatized or are in mold or both. Yeah. And you mentioned Lyme as well. Like some of you're seeing a subset of Lyme.
- [30:21]
B
Yeah. So I definitely think that even if carnivore doesn't work enough, that the diet is still, in my opinion, it's still really important to eat mostly meat based because again, it reduces the noise as you're healing everything else. So let the immune system not have to work on food and work instead on mold or lime or whatever else it's being impacted by. And there are studies that show that saturated fats actually support the reduction of endotoxins and that's one of the biotoxins in mold illness. So I think that's a plus. And every cell lining is fats and you want the quality of fats again for the cells and for your immune health. So what we find with Lyme is that so there's a subset that has been chronically Lyme and never tested for Mold, and then they also have mold, and then there's a subset that has been only down the mold path. And they're in a clean building, they're doing crazy cleaning, and, and they're better, but not fully better. So if we think of it as a gradient from A to F, so A is the best, F is the worst. And maybe before Carnivore they were at an F and now they're at a C, then they do sirs and then maybe they're at a B minus. And then when we test these people that don't fully heal with sirs, and assuming they're in a clean building, and that part's the hardest, we find that there are people that are suffering from chronic Lyme. And so then they have to go through these herbal protocols. I know certain co infections for Lyme are much harder to resolve, but I think if you reduce the inflammatory noise from Carnivore and then also from mold, then you are in a much better place to treat Lyme. And then all the other infectious disease, like Epstein Barr is another one we see really activated. So they might not have the symptoms, but now that they have mold or Lyme, it gets more activated. So their immuno the iggs, even though it's not activated, you'll see it very high compared to other people.
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A
What do you say to the people watching this? That they're just new to all of it, you know, and they're thinking, carnivore diet, heart attack, stroke, you know, saturated fat bad, fat bad. Right. Low fat diets, that's, I mean, that's been the mantra for 30 years. What do you, what do you say
- [32:38]
B
to Those people in 2020 in the Dietary Guidelines, they used to have caps for upper limits for cholesterol, and in 2020 they removed it. And you have to wonder, why did they remove it? And it's because there was no good study that proved that saturated fats or having upper cholesterol level impacted heart health. And so I just think that I like to get really basic or logical with thinking more than here's this study, because everyone can prove their thing with every study that they have. And I just think of it as animals have always been around, they've always been around for our diets, and yet now they're saying that it was animals, animal fats, saturated fats, that are causing us to have heart disease. 150 years ago, these people were trying to sell EKG machines to test your heart health. And it wasn't selling because almost no one was dying of heart attacks. But it was around the Eisenhower period in the 50s, that all of a sudden people are having heart attacks, that they needed an explanation. And it was Ancel Keys and his posse that did. You know, they shared biased results, but they said it's. They decided it's saturated fats and they proved their hypothesis. And then that's what became the narrative. But there's never been true studies or legitimate studies that makes that make sense. There's always healthy user bias, which is basically they get a population of people that maybe they're eating a lot of fiber or maybe they're eating low fat, but they also do all the other good things to be healthy. And so then they're like, see, these people don't eat meat or don't eat a lot of meat, and so that's why they don't have heart attacks. Or it's also that they exercise and that they are sleeping early and waking up to the light and all those other good things. I just think that if we logically think that heart attacks have gone up, we've been taking more and more statins, it's the number one selling prescription drug which lowers our cholesterol, yet heart attacks are not going down and meat consumption has gone down other than carnivores, and yet heart attacks are going up. And why? Again, it's that logic of 150 years ago. Heart attacks barely existed. Cancer barely existed. But why now? Yet it's the one food that's always been around since the dawn of time, that that's the problem. It just. Or how about all the seed oils, the processed food, the ultra processed foods, the GMOs, the fact that we're using, we make canola oil from a toxic plant called rapeseed. And if you ate that rapeseed, you would get really sick or die. And they use that plant and then they hybridize it, deodorize it, bleach it, and do all these things to make it edible. But it's highly, highly oxidative. It causes oxidative stress. So it causes these free radicals in your system and it basically causes excess inflammation. We are eating oils that we were never intended to eat. We are eating processed foods that they create in labs. We are using food dyes that have proven to cause neurological issues, adding fluoride to our water that also has been proven to reduce our IQ levels. We are using genetically modified foods and sprays and herbicides. That the way that it works on the body and the reason why it works so well on plants is it kills a certain part of the biological process for plants. Human cells don't have that, but our microbiome does. So what it's doing every time you're eating a GMO food is it's slowly killing your microbiome because it's an antimicrobial. And we don't think of that because the test is only done on human cells, not on our microbiome cells. And so maybe it's all of that that's causing the heart disease and the low grade inflammation and the toxic stuff. And the toxic stuff we feed our minds and not having connection and, and then the mold we breathe in. In the 70s they changed the laws of the homes. I think there was like a energy crisis. So they started saying, how about we reduce the need and dependency of energy? And so they started making homes really airtight. Well, if your home has toxic air, then what do you do now? And so I think it's a lot of all of that that is causing these heart issues. Yet for some reason they decided to blame an animal that has always been around from the beginning. And while I'm just talking about that really quick. So animals also get blamed for climate change during COVID I know I just gotta take a two second thing on this, but during COVID all the humans were in the homes, but the animals still were outside. And yet I think it was methane and other greenhouse gases that reduced. So explain that. It's just, I think we are fed narratives and we have to just wonder what, why, like, why does that make sense? I mean, we could talk about iodine. It's the same thing. It's like we don't. More and more people are getting thyroid and Hashimoto's and low hypothyroid and I'm certain that all these people are not taking iodine. You just have to wonder why.
- [37:43]
A
Yeah, follow the money, right? I think that's where we really can learn some serious lessons about diet, lifestyle, nutrition and medicine.
- [37:52]
B
Well, I'm faith based and they say that the enemy lies, cheats and steals. And I think if you follow that narrative and you believe that there's an enemy out there that will lie, cheat and steal, then it all makes sense.
- [38:08]
A
And they use the road to. They use good intention. Right? What's the saying? The road to hell is paved with good intention. And so they use the good intention of naive people. You know, you should, you should care about global warming. You're destroying the planet. Your cows are destroying the planet.
- [38:25]
B
Right. Yet they'll sell beyond Meats they were selling and I don't know if they still do, but they were selling it at like a Burger King or a fast food restaurant for A dollar or $2 more than a regular hamburger. And you have people that will probably go there that are maybe more economically challenged and they say, well, I'm supposed to be eating more plant based, so I will spend an extra dollar and eat something I think is better for me, but in reality it is so far worse for you. And there's seed oils and the global impact of making these franken foods is much worse. There's been like some papers done on that. It's just sad because it's these people that want to do good and so they're like, okay, I'm going to make the good decision in eating a plant based burger, not knowing that it's all lies, cheats and steals.
- [39:15]
A
Yeah, that's well said. Yeah. So what message of hope do you have people for people who are in mold trying to recover? You know, what message of hope do you have for them and what you've seen?
- [39:31]
B
I know it's not an easy path, but we have people that have struggled with Hashimoto's multiple sclerosis, walking with a cane, not even able to walk around their block and through the mold protocols. One person even went into a tent to heal and now they're living a quote unquote normal life. There's a saying that all people have so many wishes, but a sick person only has one and their wish is to get better. And I promise you that if you really get your mind right and your diet right and then you work on the home and try to do the best with what you can, you can find healing. It is not the easiest the 21 day fix, but you can heal. And I've seen it. And sometimes it's a long road, sometimes we cry with our patients. But I've seen healing and that's the only reason I advocate. If I thought you couldn't heal with this, I would not be advocating. But you can get your life back. You don't have to end up in a mental home or wanting to end your life because of this. Because that's the other side that people don't talk about is you'll get neurodegenerative disease or you just are tired of living. And we've had our clients and their friends that some people have taken their own life. And it's just that's who I fight for is the person that if they are losing hope, that I'M hoping. I'm hoping that we give them another chance.
- [41:13]
A
Yeah, Amen to that. Judy, thank you so much for sitting down with us and sharing all of your knowledge and experience around Mold and Carnivore and so much more. I really appreciate it.
- [41:26]
B
Thanks for having me. This is Len.
- [41:30]
A
Thanks for tuning in to the Dr. Osborne zone. Don't forget to share like and subscribe for more content like this. And make sure you come back next Tuesday at 6pm Central Standard Time and Thursday at noon 30 for more episodes. Sam.