Thai Long Ly on Fear, 20+ Years in Music and One Question Every Creative Needs to Answer

Summary

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Dream Life Club Podcast | Episode Summary

Episode Title:
Thai Long Ly on Fear, 20+ Years in Music and One Question Every Creative Needs to Answer

Host: Sumi Krishnan
Guest: Thai Long Ly
Date: June 19, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features a candid, humorous, and deeply insightful conversation between host Sumi Krishnan and Thai Long Ly—an established Los Angeles-based music producer, engineer, mixer, and bassist with more than two decades in the music industry. The discussion focuses on navigating creative careers, conquering fear, Thai’s nonlinear artistic journey, lessons from music-industry mentors, and the essential questions every creative must answer.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Thai’s Origin Story & Journey into Music

[03:57-11:31]

• Early Aspirations:

  • Began playing bass at 12, inspired to be a rock star, especially wanting to be “Geddy Lee from Rush, except I didn’t have the voice.” (Thai, 04:13)
  • Faced discouragement in singing, notably from family:
    • “My mom was like, you don’t have a very good voice. And then my brother would always make fun of me.” (05:02)
  • Emphasized developing skills over relying solely on innate talent:
    • “If you put time and energy in anything, then you can get better.” (Thai, 05:08)

• Navigating Career Detours:

  • Transitioned from bass player in hard rock bands to running a retail bass boutique (side quest!), before returning to music full-time after a series of personal losses.
  • Noted the critical realization from his early near-death experience:
    • “At 12 years old, I got run over by a car… it gave me a very unique perspective at 12 that life can—it is fleeting.” (Thai, 10:16)

• Cultural Pressures:

  • As a 3/4 Vietnamese, 1/4 Chinese first-generation American, faced pressure for more “stable” careers (e.g., “doctor”), and music wasn’t seen as a legitimate option. (11:38-12:50)

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2. Pivotal Mentors & Seizing Opportunities

[13:03-21:08]

• Thai credits much of his growth to mentorship by industry professionals:
  • Eric Zobler: “He became my mentor… He taught me how to listen and how to engineer.” (14:15)
  • Al McKay (Earth, Wind & Fire): Connection began serendipitously, leading to major professional opportunities:
    • “He ended up tracking all over my record… I was there every day, five days a week. He ended up taking me around the world…” (Thai, 19:07)
• Takeaway on Preparedness & Luck:
  • “Luck is opportunity meeting preparedness… as artists, we should constantly be doing what it is that we want to be doing.” (Thai, 17:49)
• On Imposter Syndrome:
  • “I’ve always long suffered from imposter syndrome… I really needed the world to hear what I was doing. I wanted the validation.” (Thai, 22:02)
• Advice for Creatives: Be working on your craft constantly; be ready when “luck” comes by. (17:49)

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3. Art vs. Commerce: Creating for Yourself or for the Market?

[23:17-27:09]

• On Releasing Art:
  • Thai favors authenticity and legacy over churning out content for algorithms:
    • “When I’m sitting on my deathbed, am I proud of everything that I’ve left behind?” (Thai, 24:53)
    • “If I put something out that moves me, then it’s bound to move somebody else. And if it doesn’t move them, then they’re not your audience.” (Thai, 25:19)
• On Money in Music:
  • “If you got into music for the money, I think you’re an idiot. Because there are far easier ways to make money.” (Thai, 27:09)
  • Still recognizes the need to survive: side hustles are ok—define your own version of success.

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4. Industry Realities & Personal Philosophy

[29:12-35:27]

• Myth-busting the Music Industry:
  • Chose professionalism and avoided the “party lifestyle”:
    • “If there was a billable hour, I was not drinking and I wasn’t doing anything else.” (Thai, 30:43)
• Evolving Dreams:
  • Transitioned from wanting to be a “rock star” to simply waking up every day and working on music:
    • “Eventually, it was like my boat to stardom had a leak in it.” (Thai, 31:23)
• On Change & Acceptance:
  • “Drama is something we create. There’s just outcomes in life no matter what.” (Thai, 33:19)
  • Meditation and acceptance help in both life and chaotic studio moments.

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5. Returning to Creating for the Self

[35:45-43:13]

• Biggest Challenge:
  • “The most challenging thing for me so far is my own music.” (Thai, 35:50)
  • After 15 years focused on others’ work, is again writing and playing bass for himself, battling internal expectation and comparison.
• Instrument as Voice:
  • “Every instrument that anybody plays is… an extension of themselves. It’s their voice.” (Thai, 39:13)
  • Struggled with “self-imposed prison” of trying to impress peers; had to redefine purpose:
    • “Why am I doing it? Is it to impress my friends? No. It’s actually not. It’s to express myself.” (Thai, 42:30)
• Importance of Creation for Its Own Sake:
  • Plans to release new music primarily for personal growth, not acclaim:
    • “If the only people that hear it are my cats and my friends, then so be it.” (Thai, 42:51)

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6. Thai’s Core Advice for Creatives

[43:40-45:53]

• On Motivation and Goals:
  • “Ask yourself why you’re doing it. What is the goal? Why am I in music?… Embrace it, accept it, and then make every move from that point forward to reach that goal.” (Thai, 44:13)
• On Path and Detours:
  • “Sometimes you gotta find something, you pull a string… you don’t realize that’s the detour you needed.” (Thai, 45:00)
• On Fear:
  • “Fear is the one thing that holds us all back… if we remove our fear in life, we can go so far.” (Thai, 46:35; 47:38)
• Real-Life Example:
  • Sumi shares a story of encouraging a friend scared to invite a curator for her art show:
    • “What’s the worst that could happen?… She emailed the curator and then texted me back right away, ‘Oh my god, she’s coming.’” (Sumi, 47:15)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Early Inspiration:

  • “I wanted to be Geddy Lee from Rush, except I didn’t have the voice.” (Thai, 04:13)

• On Life’s Lessons:

  • “You can work really hard at something and it could be taken away the next day because you’re gone.” (Thai, 10:06)

• On Legacy:

  • “Am I proud of everything that I’ve left behind? The breadcrumbs, the trail of music, the art?” (Thai, 24:53)

• On Preparedness:

  • “Luck is opportunity meeting preparedness.” (Thai, 17:49)

• On Motivation:

  • “If you got into music for the money, I think you’re an idiot.” (Thai, 27:09)
  • “Ask yourself why you’re doing it. What is the goal?” (Thai, 44:13)

• On Fear:

  • “We can talk ourselves out of everything if we give enough time.” (Thai, 46:45)

• On Self-Expression:

  • “It’s to express myself.” (Thai, 42:30)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Thai’s Early Music Story & Family Pressure: 03:46–12:50
• Mentorship & Al McKay Story: 13:03–21:08
• Art vs. Commerce & Releasing Music: 23:17–27:09
• Industry Life, Personal Shifts, and Acceptance: 29:12–35:27
• Getting Back to Personal Music/Expression: 35:45–43:13
• Advice for Creatives & The Role of Fear: 43:40–47:38

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Takeaways for Listeners

• There is no straight path: Side quests and detours shape your artistry.
• Prepare relentlessly: Always be working on your craft—even when no one’s watching.
• Seize opportunity: Be brave enough to approach those you admire and put your work out there.
• Define your own success: What does it mean to you—not anyone else?
• Remove fear: Most creative blockages are self-imposed.
• Stay present and accept change: Your best work and happiest life flow from adaptability and authenticity.

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To follow or reach Thai Long Ly:
He is online (website, socials), but also jokes, “You’ll find me stumbling around the streets of Pasadena. Come up and say, hey.” (48:00)

Transcript

[A]

All right, welcome everybody back to the Dream Life Club podcast. Today we've got a really special guest with us, Tai Long Lee.

[B]

Nice to be here. Thanks for having me.

[A]

You're so welcome. Thank you for being here. It's really an honor to get to dive deep with you this hour.

[B]

It is very early for me. This is one hell of an hour.

[A]

It's noon, you guys. It's noon. This is musician life in la. Yes, it is. Some musicians.

[B]

Yeah, it's actually quite early for me. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so Ty refused to present me with an official bio that he wanted read off and he basically told me he wanted me to introduce him as someone who rides his motorcycles all day long in the mountains.

[B]

That is true.

[A]

Okay, so I am actually going to read what Google AI says about you.

[B]

I don't want to hear this.

[A]

Tai Long Lee is a highly versatile Los Angeles based music producer, audio engineer, mixer and bassist with over two decades in the industry. He is celebrated for his deep technical knowledge of analog and digital workflows and his work with top tier artists like Dionne Warwick, Pink and George Duke. But they're missing a few. In fact, they're missing many.

[B]

That's. Those were four days right there.

[A]

Key credits. Oh, those were. Those were four days.

[B]

I'm kidding. It was four people, four days. The rest of my life. I've been doing other things as well.

[A]

The rest of your life is riding motorcycles?

[B]

That's the majority of my life, actually. Yeah.

[A]

Key credits. He has worked with artists such as Elle King, Madcon, Robbie Williams and Jax. All true collaborations. He frequently collaborates with the highly popular musical collective Postmodern Jukebox.

[B]

That is indeed true.

[A]

We all know Postmodern Jukebox and frequently tracks and mixes for international artists at esteemed studios such as East West Studios in Los Angeles.

[B]

I sound really cool via AI.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I don't sound half as cool via AI really.

[B]

By the way, look you up and see what.

[A]

Oh, my. No, no.

[B]

All right, next question.

[A]

I don't know. Yeah, if you want to,

[B]

I will.

[A]

Let's see. I was gonna ask you something about that, which now you made me lose my train of thought. I'm gonna blame it on you. Thank you.

[B]

All right, it'll come back to you.

[A]

Okay. Okay. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Speaking of, have you ever read that book?

[B]

I actually have not. I probably should, so.

[A]

Because part of your reputation in the industry and the city, as far as I understand it, is depth and kind of calmness and centeredness. And I think people look at you as sort of like the Buddha of the engineer producer scene.

[B]

Is that because I ate too many late night Cheetos and cheeseburgers?

[A]

Not the laughing Buddha.

[B]

Oh, okay, that'd be. I mean, I'll take it. Buddha's Buddha, right?

[A]

Okay, dude, Buddha's amazing. But. Well, let's. Let's hear a little bit about, like, who you are from your own perspective and your story and like, so. Because basically, you know, the people listening, Ty, are mostly people who have a creative dream and like, to hear about how people who are actually living it operate and how they've made their dream work for themselves. Right. Because a career in music, a career in the arts, a career in entertainment is, I would say, probably like one of the most difficult fields. Or if not the most difficult field, because there is no standard path with, like, steps you can follow and boxes you can check to make a career for yourself. You kind of have to keep creating it for your. For yourself, every step of the way. So what's your story? And like, how did you get to where you are now?

[B]

Wow. Do we have a year to talk about? Do we have a lifetime?

[A]

I will say, Ty, you're a very. You're. You're a great storyteller. And we need the fast version.

[B]

Fast version. Okay. Essentially, I. I was playing bass since I was. I've been playing bass since I was 12 years old. Wanted to be a rock star.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's the. The genesis of it all. Wanted to be, you know, who was your. Who.

[A]

Who, like, did you want to be, like, when you were 12?

[B]

Oh, man. I wanted to be Geddy Lee from Rush, except I didn't have the voice.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But that's what I wanted to do.

[A]

Did you ever sing? Were you a singer ever?

[B]

No.

[A]

When you were young? No.

[B]

Well, I was, but then my. No, not at all.

[A]

No, I was, but. No, not at all.

[B]

Well, I would sing, but it was pretty terrible, so.

[A]

Okay. Okay. Yeah. You tried?

[B]

I tried. I quickly stopped.

[A]

Okay. Did you have a moment when anyone told you, like, don't do this anymore?

[B]

Oh, absolutely.

[A]

What happened?

[B]

I kept doing it. You meant singing? I meant singing, Yeah. I think my mom.

[A]

But actually, it's a really good point. We should come back to that.

[B]

My mom was like, you don't have a very good voice. And then my brother would always make fun of me. You have a pretty terrible voice. So then I kind of believed it.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

Right. And then I got in my head

[A]

about it, and it's funny. Cause, like, maybe you could have worked on it and developed it, like, who knows?

[B]

Oh, for sure. I think if you put time and energy in anything, then you can.

[A]

Better.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's the 10,000 hours thing. Some people are just born with the natural aptitude.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, you know, they're way ahead of

[A]

the game, which I actually respect less than people who like, really have to put in the work.

[B]

True. I also think that when you see somebody who's highly skilled out of the gate and they don't know what they're doing, if they do actually put in work, I mean, if they start here and they put in the same amount of hours as somebody who starts here, perhaps they're gonna get.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Here. I think the. The less respecting that. I think, if I understand what you're saying, is that if they just actually

[A]

don't just rely on their national talent. Right, that's. That's right. That's right. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Well, so to answer your question, I was a bass player then played in a bunch of bands growing up. When I moved out to California, I joined a band and did the usual playing around town.

[A]

What kind of. What kind of like genre? What kind of bands?

[B]

Oh, it's a hard rock, long haired, spandex, heavy metal type thing. And then Nirvana happened and we went from a, what I thought a happening sound, went to the, you know, dustbin of. Of musical history because Nirvana was such the opposite thing. And the anti play, meaning that, like, they were good musicians, of course, but they weren't. We were shredding and playing riffs and, you know, everybody had, I thought, mad skills. But then the grunge thing happened and we were no longer hip. So anyway, I ended up starting a retail store.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Along the way, I ended up starting a retail store.

[A]

See, I love this little interjection of career path because I think a lot of people think it's a straight line. Right. But there's always like little adventure, like side quests, actually, as the kids are saying these days. Like our. Our intern producer is shaking his head. He's agreeing with the side quests. But like, in a creative career, I think it's like, we're creatives, so we're gonna want to do other things rather than. It's not a linear, like climb the ladder type of path. So. Okay, so go on.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. I think everything you do in life prepares you for the next thing you're doing. And sometimes you don't even know why. When I was younger, I thought, all right, this is what I'm going to do. And it's Forever. Of course that's ridiculous because nothing is forever. It's for as long as it serves you. However.

[A]

See, Buddhist, right?

[B]

So anything that I did, even if I didn't think it was related, it actually is related. Because I think everything that you're doing when you're expressing yourself as a human, regardless of what instrument you use, whether it's a business or music or art or creation or whatever it is you're doing, even if you're just sitting there having a conversation, you're expressing something and everything that you do will benefit later. And you're drawing upon everything you've ever done before in your life. So anyway, before I go off on some Buddhist tangent, I had a retail store that I did for a number of years. And in the back I was still working on music. I assembled a little recording studio and I was writing music, still performing. And when I got out of retail, I was at a crossroads. What do I do with my life? Do I get back into retail? Do I start a new business? What do I do? Or do I go and pursue my dreams full time? Because I had never done that before.

[A]

Just for people who may be like, wondering how this works. Was retail a profitable venture for you?

[B]

It was. Until it wasn't.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay meaning I did, I did okay. You know, I lived a decent life, but I didn't, I didn't get rich. Certainly not. But it was, it was great for the five years that I did it.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. So it was, it was enough.

[B]

It was enough. And the. What happened? And it's still going now. The store that I, that I started is still in business now. My ex partner is still doing as far as I'm. As far as I know. But we had a pretty bad falling out. So that's a whole other discussion for another day. So I was at this crossroads and I thought, well, what am I going to do? So I had. The year leading up to me leaving retail, I had lost a bunch of people that were very dear to me, including my father and my grandfather and one of my best friends. So I was not in a great mental state space. I mean, I was fine, but I just kind of thought, like, what am I doing? What does life mean? And life is short. And you know, you can work really hard at something and it could be taken away the next day because you're gone. So with that mindset, I thought, you know what? As I'm sitting here trying to decide what I want to do, I'm going to try to pursue music full time.

[A]

Okay? So that was your impetus, kind of being motivated by losing loved ones and people close to you and realizing that life is short. We only have like one chance to do what we want to do.

[B]

Correct, correct. And if I back up it. And it was kind of paired with. When I was 12 years old, I got run over by a car. Really literally run over 30, 30ft. They had to lift it off of me. I broke a bunch of stuff and. And, you know, went to the hospital, got airlifted out. It was. And I had a. And what they call an nde, right. A near death experience where I, you know, it's weird to talk about it, but it, you know, I know what happened. I saw myself and it essentially. It gave me a very unique perspective at 12 that life can. It is fleeting. And, you know, there's that whole saying, hey, you know, I can get hit by a bus tomorrow. Well, yeah, hello. I was actually that guy.

[A]

So was it actually a bus?

[B]

It wasn't a bus. It was a Honda Civic, of all things. Even though it was the most physically painful thing I'd ever gone through emotionally and spiritually, or I don't know what the word is, it gave me a very. It gave me a unique experience or a unique viewpoint on life, and that is to go pursue your dreams no matter what, because it can be taken away in an instant.

[A]

Yeah. Ty, can I ask what your, like, background is, ethnicity wise?

[B]

Yeah. I am Vietnamese and a quarter Chinese, so 3/4 Vietnamese, a quarter Chinese.

[A]

Okay. And did you, I mean, speaking like stereotypically about like the Asian parent stereotype, did you feel pressure culturally to pursue a different path, like, other than your passion or other than music?

[B]

Oh, yeah, definitely. I should be a doctor.

[A]

Should be a doctor or something.

[B]

Okay, yeah.

[A]

So you had to fight that as well.

[B]

Definitely. And I understand it. You know, my parents came here. They are immigrants and I'm first generation. So, you know, my parents sacrificed a lot to give me opportunities. And so I think they just wanted me to make the most of my opportunities. And in that culture, money represented freedom. And so there was a big push to make money and to be successful and to be comfortable and to not struggle, which also in the Vietnamese society, music is. That's not a career choice. It wasn't a legitimate career choice. So they couldn't even understand how you could even begin to be successful. And what does that even look like? So I was fighting quite a bit.

[A]

Okay, okay, okay. So then take us. So then you decide to go pursue music full time that year after you felt those Many losses in your life.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

So then what happened?

[B]

So a whole bunch of stuff kind of happened around the same time. I think it's interesting how the universe works. It pushes you on a path. And I ended up meeting several people who were very. What's the word? Pivotal. They were quite pivotal in helping me to develop my skill set as an engineer, as a producer, as a writer, as a player, and ultimately as a person. So I'll pick one. I met a guy named Eric Zobler through George Duke. Or I met George Duke and Eric Zober on the same day. And. And I was a fan of George Duke's forever. And finding myself in his home in his recording studio one day, it was mind blowing. So as I was watching Eric Zobler, who is George's longtime engineer, work, I was like, what are you doing? How do you do that? How are you getting these amazing sounds? So anyway, long story short, he became my mentor.

[A]

George Duke or Eric Zobler?

[B]

Well, Eric Zobler, originally. And then George didn't become a mentor, but he was very pivotal in helping me. You know, he recommended me for gigs later on, as we got to know each other and we became friends, and he would give me advice on music and so forth. But Eric became a very huge part of my life. He taught me how to listen and how to engineer. So along with working with Eric, I met Al McKay, the original guitar player from Earth, Wind and Fire. And that was pivotal for me as well. Not only as a. As a person, but as a player, as a bass player, as a producer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I was working with him, getting tutelage from Eric. There was a really great film composer named Gary Chang, who is still a dear friend of mine today, and he was helping me with production.

[A]

So pause you there for a second when you're getting these opportunities to be mentored by and learn from and be in the rooms with these types of people, like, how did they. Do you have a story you could share for people listening, wondering, well, how did you even get that opportunity in the first place? Like, how does something like that come to you?

[B]

Okay, so let's start with Al McCarry. When I was 20 and I had first moved out here to Los Angeles, I joined this rock band and we were in the studio making a record, and somebody that was in our band knew Al. I'm not sure what the connection was, but he knew Al. And Al came down to cut a solo on one of our songs. And so I got. That was the first time I'd met Him. And he played some really, really amazing stuff. Right. And it was a highlight for me because I was a huge Earth, Wind and Fire fan. So we fast forward many years later, I don't know, five or six years later, I run into Al in a parking lot. And I run up to him, I go, hey, Al, I don't know.

[A]

So you just recognized him, decided to run up to him?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, he's a fairly famous guy. So I ran up to him and I said, hey, Al, I don't know if you remember me, but you came in and you cut this unbelievable solo on this track of ours, and it was really great.

[A]

What was it the parking lot of? Do you remember?

[B]

It may have been. It was a parking lot somewhere in Tarzana. Somewhere. I don't know.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, a Best Buy.

[A]

Okay, okay. Like something like that. Like a retail parking lot.

[B]

Yeah, a retail parking lot. So he said to me, surprisingly, he goes, oh, I absolutely remember that session. I was very nervous and I. I said to him, well, you are Al McKay. Why would you be nervous? And he goes, well, because it's a rock thing. That was a rock gig, and I don't play rock and roll. And so I said, well, that's funny you say that, because I'm actually working on my own. My new record of my own stuff with. With a friend of mine, and it's an R B thing, and I'd love to have guitars on it. And I said, that kind of cheeky. And I didn't think anything was going to happen, so I ran out of my car and I grabbed a CDR of some bounces, some really rough ideas, and I scribbled my name and my number on it and I gave it to him. And I never expected to hear from him. He called me about an hour later and he said, hey, this is really great stuff. You need a guitar player. I'm in. And I didn't know what to say.

[A]

And I said, so just to break it down like you were so you already. So as people are thinking about takeaways, like, you're already doing the work, you had worked on your craft enough, you had been writing, recording, you had had a CD with you that had stuff good enough for him to say, yes, I want to work with you.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah. I think, you know, they always say luck is opportunity, meeting preparedness. And I really do think that as artists, that we should constantly be doing what it is that we want to be doing. I think the approach of saying, like, oh, I'm an artist. What do I Need to do? Well, I don't think Michelangelo sat there and was like, well, how do I need to. How do I advance my career? He probably just created art every day, whether he was getting paid for it or not, because that's what he does. My cats are just cats every day. They're not sitting around thinking about how to be a cat.

[A]

Well, and even if you do focus on, I guess, marketing, it's like, you also do your art. If you're an artist, you just do it.

[B]

That is the. Actually, that's the core of it, right? As an artist, we have to continually be creating so that when we do have to market and all the other. The stuff that has nothing to do with the art, that in and of itself, you have something to sell. If you're, you know, they say, what if you're. If you're not selling, you're preparing to sell. So you have to have something to be putting out there. And the expression of it, of who we are is the art. So. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, well, that's a good story. Was that it? Was that the ending of it?

[B]

Well, he ended up cutting my record. He came in and I said to him, I go, I probably can't afford you. And he says, I'm not offering. I mean, I'm not asking for money. So he came in and he ended up tracking all over my record. And of course, as he was involved other people that were successful and known name people jumped in on the project as well. And it taught me quite a bit about how to actually make a real record. So I worked on it for a number of years. A couple years. And I called him up when I was done and I said, hey, Al, I finally finished that record. Can I drop off a copy of it? And he said, yeah, come on by. So I went to his house and I gave him the CDR or the cd and didn't expect to hang for more than just a couple minutes, but he ended up listening to the entire record from front to back. And he was in the studio at the time with Rusty Hamilton, who at the time, I believe he was the musical director for Cool and the Gang. So they were. I had really just crashed their session is what had happened. So after we listened to the whole thing front to back, Al said to me, he goes, you did all this on your own? And I said, yeah, this is what I've been doing for the last year. And he looked at Rusty and he said. And he looked at me and he goes, hey, what are you doing tomorrow? Come on up. We need an engineer and bring your bass, and we need a producer. So I ended up working with Al for the next couple years. Ended up with a key to his house. I was there every day, five days a week. And he ended up taking me around the world as a monitoring engineer. And all these other doors started to open up for me through my association with him. And probably the most incredible thing that happened was just through osmosis. He never sat down and taught me anything specifically, like do this or do that. But just being around someone like that, day in and day out, writing and playing and recording, it was the greatest education I could never have imagined.

[A]

Right, right. No, that's amazing. That's amazing. And just to think that, like. Like, honestly, so generous of him too, to first decide to play on your record without asking for any compensation for it, especially who he is. And, you know, for someone to do that, I guess that must have felt really validating of your own skill and creativity. And did it? Did it kind of. Was it a confidence boost in terms of feeling like you had your place in this industry? Or did you always feel confident enough? Or what was the internal chatter?

[B]

No, I don't think so. I didn't look at it that way. I looked at it as, this is what I'm doing today with Al and how exciting is this?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I've always long suffered from imposter syndrome. I think maybe it just comes from being, I don't know, a son of immigrants. I don't know, maybe my specific immigrants, my parents. So I really needed the world to hear what I was doing. I wanted the world to hear what I was doing. I wanted the validation. But I, at the same time just showed up and worked. So I didn't put too much thought into it. I just was, like, excited about the whole thing. And especially when I was learning the engineering from Eric as well, because I was working with Al, I was getting advice from Eric. I'm learning. I was spending time here and there, figuring it all out, talking to different people. And I think it was just such an exciting time for me because every day I was just devouring information and working on my craft that I didn't really have time to stop and think about it. Before I knew it, I turned around and X amount of time had gone by. And the cool thing about art is if you're working on it, you have something to show for it. Right at the end, you can hit play and go, oh, wow, I did that. That's pretty cool.

[A]

What's your opinion now on. And we're gonna get to some of the current stuff that you're working on. But I know you're also working on your own projects now, as well as the stuff that I was talking about in your intro bio. But. But, like, what's your opinion now on the balance between. For artists who are building a career now, the balance between, like, releasing stuff into the world as much as possible versus trying to figure out what the, you know, absolute best thing is to release before you release. Because there's really, like, two schools of thought on it nowadays. I think a lot of people are playing the volume game where it's like, create, release, create release, create release, create release. Every two weeks, every week, you should be dropping something new is a lot of the current wisdom in the music industry. And then there's the opposite, which is like, write 50 songs and pick your 12 best to be on an album and put that out. Or write 100 songs and pick the 12 best. Where do you fall on that continuum?

[B]

Good question. I feel that maybe it's from my school of thought or it's from my upbringing and the music that I grew up listening to. I understand the.

[A]

You're saying you're old.

[B]

You just said it. Yes, I'm very old. I think it just depends on what you want to think about your career when you look back upon it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

When I'm sitting on my deathbed, am I proud of everything that I've left behind? The breadcrumbs, the trail of music, the art? So that somebody who doesn't know me or owe me anything, if they discover me, can they follow a path that thread and go, oh, I like this. I like everything that this person did.

[A]

But how do you know what someone else is going to think?

[B]

Well, I don't do it for what other people think. I do it for myself.

[A]

So whether you're going to like it?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. I'm thinking, like, if I'm doing something that's authentic, then. And if I feel like I have any decent taste in music and I've been doing my homework and I feel schooled and studied and just experienced. If I put something out that moves me, then it's bound to move somebody else. And if it doesn't move them, then they're not your audience. So I don't think that working on something that you're trying to hit a target, unless it's a commercial gig where you're being. There's a very specific target. You know, you get a commercial for whatever, writing music for someone else, some corporate gig Right? Yes, absolutely.

[A]

Brand or a product or a TV show or film.

[B]

Correct. If it's something that is yours, wholly yours, I think you should just be authentic. And whatever that you put out in the world is your legacy. Because at some point we'll be six feet under and it will be what we've done. And if. If it's 40,000 songs that you put 38 seconds of your life and thought into, but you put them out every day, if that's your legacy, then that's your Legacy. If it's 12 or 20 highly crafted, exceptionally well done, emotional, evocative pieces of art, music, film, whatever it is, if that's your legacy, then if that's what you're happy with, then that's what you should do.

[A]

What would you say to someone who says, yeah, but I need to, you know, I need more at bats. I need to continue to like, like throw stuff out there to see what hits because something may go viral on TikTok or I need to make money from this shit. So, like, the more streams I can rack up with, whatever it is, the better. How do you deal with the money question?

[B]

I think you have to ask yourself why we're doing it to begin with. Because I think if you got into music for the money, I think you're an idiot. Because there are far easier ways to make money. So I'm not saying that people who are doing it full time don't need to make money. We all need to pay our bills and up to the lifestyle that we are comfortable with. But. But I think you have to make the art for the right reasons. And I think that's a question every artist needs to ask themselves. Am I doing it for the money? Am I doing it in spite of the money? You know, am I doing it because I have something to say? I have to express this, or I need an outlet for something. Yes, money is important. Sometimes you need to get a side hustle. You need to have other streams of income so that you can support yourself. But also, what does that success look like? How does it feel like to you? Somebody might say, well, I want to be in a house in Malibu, and I'm not going to be happy until I've got a wall full of gold records and so forth. Other people, they just want to be able to wake up every day and create music. And that's kind of where I fell. I worked really hard in retail. I busted my ass doing it and I enjoyed it and I learned a lot. But I also realized when I stepped away from it that I had never been so stressed in my life and I was a 20 something year old kid with like heart palpitations and stress and like I was, I was a wreck.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I didn't feel it when I was in it because I didn't know any better. You know, when you're younger you can stress yourself out.

[A]

You really can, you can burn the candle on both. You can really go hard and party till 4am up at 8am yeah, yeah.

[B]

And you don't realize anytime you step away.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I. Part of the decision making of when I stepped away from retail and to go full time into the music thing and to pursue that dream was okay, I don't want to do that to myself anymore physically, emotionally, stress wise. So I.

[A]

But going into like. So your side of the industry, which is like on the engineering and producing side, like that doesn't really have a reputation for being stress free. I mean that speaking of parties till 4am up at 8am I mean there's a lot. Music industry's reputation is late nights, lots of drugs parties. Like did you fall into that at all?

[B]

No, I did not.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's not what I wanted. You know, I experimented a lot with things when I was younger and I got it out of my system when I reached adulthood. And so it wasn't important to me. It didn't mean anything to me. I watched people getting messed up and doing all sorts of things. But my crowd of people, my crew and the people that I wanted to hang out and make music with for the most part were clean. Of course there's stuff that happens, but I never partook. Especially being a professional. I never wanted to partake in anything, even a drink. If I was in a relationship recording session and we're going all day, all night and somebody breaks open a bottle of wine or they break open, you know, beer or alcohol. And I never wanted. You're working, I'm working. I never wanted to be on the clock and then show that I wanted to show my professional face. Now afterwards, if we leave the studio or we're hanging and we're off the clock. Yeah, perhaps. But even if we were at the very end of a session and it was winding down, if there was a billable hour, I was not drinking and I wasn't doing anything else.

[A]

Okay. And so did you ever find yourself like. So you, you got into this. I remember when you were 12, you said you wanted to be a rock star, right? When did that kind of fade? And you realized actually you just want to Be able to get up every day and be able to work on music, like. Because that is a different mindset, right?

[B]

Yeah, it is. I think once I put out my first real record or once I worked on it and did that. Well, not my first one. I did a couple, but essentially, at some point, I just. Eventually, it was like my boat to start them had a leak in it. That's what I always thought.

[A]

But your boat to stardom had a leak?

[B]

I looked down and I was like, there's a little hole in the bottom. I'm taking on water and.

[A]

But see, some people keep trying to fill that hole for, you know, decades.

[B]

Yeah, you know, I toured around as a bass player. I got a taste of it. Okay, so.

[A]

And you. Were you. Were you into the party lifestyle when you were touring as a bass player?

[B]

I. Well, party. Well, let me put it to you this way. Party is. It depends. I'm gonna get in trouble here. Let's just say, who are you gonna

[A]

get in trouble with?

[B]

I don't know, Mom. I don't know, Mom. Turn this. Mute this part. I don't know if my daughter's watching you. Describe. I'm kidding. No, I had fun. I enjoyed being on the road. You know when you put a bunch of dudes on a. I don't know, in a vehicle, and you take them around somewhere and they have no responsibilities except to just be somewhere at some time, and you're just walking aimlessly through life that way. That's fun. It's great. You can be completely irresponsible, and then. Then it's over and you come home and you got to be responsible.

[A]

Do you have nostalgia for those days, or do you feel like your life now is much more fulfilling?

[B]

I. I loved every minute of everything. Like, I love my life now. I love my life then. And if I didn't love it, I would change it and do something different. I think that we can create what it is our experience. We can't control the world, but we can control how we're moving through it. So if I'm unhappy with something that I'm doing, then I just. I shift myself, change myself, change my viewpoint, and head towards that direction that I'd rather be walking.

[A]

What's something you've changed in, like, recent years? Has there been anything,

[B]

I think, working on acceptance for me, which kind of maybe ties into the whole Buddha thing. Right.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

As I do more meditation and I work on myself and, you know, I used to be, like, something happened, and I'd go, ah, man. And It'd be dramatic and have some drama in my life. And now I realize that drama is something we create. There's just outcomes in life no matter what. Like, you know, coming here today, right. I was, I left early so I could get her early so I could relax before we started. But I ended up getting caught in traffic and. And it was a big four car pile up on the 110 freeway or on the 10 freeway. And I thought, I'm going to be late and this is not the thing I want to be late for. So it's real easy to get upset or to start feeling stress. But then I thought, nope, this is what the universe wants and this is how it is. And there's nothing I can do anyway, so might as well just crank up

[A]

the music and have a good time.

[B]

Enjoy the moment, being present. So you ask if I've changed anything, it's really just myself and I think that will be reflected in my art.

[A]

How so?

[B]

Because I won't be. Because I can, if I'm present and I can accept. I think presence and acceptance is the same thing. I'm accepting what's going on. Right. This place could be burning down right now and we can either choose to flip out and run around and scream and be stifled or frozen, or we can just accept that it is and then make a rational decision from that point forward.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Being calm and. So if I'm in the middle of a recording session and all hell is breaking loose, I've got 18 people in front of me through the glass and half, there's a line bus somewhere, there's somebody's charts missing. I don't know, whatever that could be happening in a recording session. If I start to lose my cool or I don't accept that this is what's happening, have a piece of gear go down or drummer's got to leave in half an hour or whatever it is. If I'm accepting of the situation and I can stay present, I will always be able to make the right decisions.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Instead of something that I would regret later.

[A]

What is in your experience so far an example of the most crazy or most fun or most challenging thing you've worked on?

[B]

Ah, interesting. Musically you're talking.

[A]

Musically,

[B]

I think the most challenging thing for me so far is my own music.

[A]

Okay. Okay, tell us about what you're working on.

[B]

Well, so I haven't worked on an album of my own and God, 15 years maybe.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'd have to look at the calendar to get you an exact date.

[A]

Yeah, he's actually 83. We just. He just. I'm actually really good for his age.

[B]

I'm aging as we speak. You're aging the shit out of me, Ella. Can I say shit?

[A]

I can't say you can say shit. Yeah, we say, we say, we say everything on this podcast.

[B]

Okay, good. I did not play my bass for a long time. When I gave up touring and I stopped, I just stopped playing bass. I put it down and I just walked away from it. And I concentrated on production, I concentrated on engineering and I worked on a bunch of other people's material. And I have been doing that for the last, I don't know, 15 some odd years.

[A]

Robbie Williams, pink, PMJ. Like, just some people. You may not have heard of people. Yeah.

[B]

But I did not think I had much to do. Say, I had spent my life since 12 years old glued to my instrument, glued to my bass. My retail store was nothing. It was all about the bass.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah, it was a base, high end bass boutique.

[A]

Oh, it was just bass.

[B]

Just bass. So my entire life.

[A]

That's so specific. Okay, sorry.

[B]

Yeah. I didn't know there were that many more specific.

[A]

I didn't know there were that many bases that you could sell.

[B]

Yeah, there were. There still are. So I have been, you know, bass has been a huge part of my life. It's been my face almost. Right. It was like my identity. And at some point I just said, you know what? None more. I don't know why. I just burnt out. Part of it also was you also

[A]

got really busy with other stuff.

[B]

Well, I got busy with other things. And I think because I had been playing the bass for so long, not that I was any good at it, but I had been playing with at it for so long. When engineering and production came along in my life, it was new for me. It was an unknown.

[A]

Right, okay, so you were exploring that and having fun with that.

[B]

I was learning that, yeah. I could have taken that knowledge and put it into my instrument and gotten to become a much, much better bass player. But for some reason, I guess I'd been doing it for so long, I just wanted something new. And also at that time, bass, as a producer, I could. I could hire a great bass player. And bass was just a component of everything else. Vocals, strings, and all the other instruments. So I felt like I was getting a larger, more macro view of music. And that really appealed to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I put a lot of energy into learning that. And I think because that in and of itself is such a huge, deep rabbit Hole of never ending learning that it just was fresh. So to get to answer your question, originally, I didn't have anything to say on the instrument for the longest time.

[A]

Say on the bass.

[B]

On the bass, yeah.

[A]

Now I just like, okay. As a singer, songwriter, you know, I think. And a lot of people listening are in that, like, we think of writing as lyrics. So when you say to say on the bass, explain even what that means to you.

[B]

I think every instrument that anybody plays is just an expression, an extension of themselves. It's their voice. You have your voice, and you have something you want to sing or say comes out of your face. Well, what I would say as an instrumentalist comes out of my bass.

[A]

Did you purposely have to rhyme those two?

[B]

No, it just happened. It never happened.

[A]

I was like, that was good. That was good.

[B]

It'll never happen again. So having the instrument in my hand, if I'm playing the same thing, if I haven't learned new vocabulary or I'm sick of what I'm saying, I got to a place where I would play.

[A]

This is a very jazz concept, perhaps, I think, you know, I think in other genres, musicians don't really think like this.

[B]

Well, I think every instrumentalist and I think every musician that is has any amount of critical thinking, probably does feel that way about themselves. They get bored of what they play. So then you got to learn more vocabulary, expand your language. And I think jazz musicians in general tend to continue to expand their vocabulary. And I'm not calling myself a jazz musician by any stretch. I hang out with a lot of them, but I'm not necessarily one of them. But the mindset of constantly creating and learning and having something to say, meaning, again, to answer your question, is I would pick up the instrument, play something, and go, yeah, that sucks. And I'd put it down, but.

[A]

But not. Not the notes. It's more. You're talking, not the notes or the rhythm or the specific thing that you're playing. It's more of the emotion that you're offering through whatever you're playing. Correct?

[B]

Yeah. I think, you know, it's interesting you're asking me this because I've never actually put it in. Had to put it into words. It's always been a feeling. So if I had to put it into words, yeah, I'd pick up. So let's say I'd grab my instrument, I play something, and there are notes, I'm playing it with some kind of feeling. Yeah, I guess maybe I just didn't have the emotional tie to it. It just wasn't moving me anything that came out, I just thought, ah, that sucks. And I'd put it down or I'd play something and it wasn't impressive to me. God heard that. It's rote. I put it down. At the same time, I also have been surrounded by some really amazing musicians. My, my peer set and my friends, my group, my circle of friends, close friends are all extraordinary musicians. So part of it was also like, what can I play on the instrument that would move their needle? Not that I have to impress them by any stretch, but there is always a little bit of hey guys, check this out kind of thing, especially with our friends. And these are people that I'm making music with on a daily basis, whether as an engineer or a producer. So when it came down to my own writing and my own playing, to answer your question, I was very reticent about putting anything down and then showing it off. Because again, I would think, how can I play or write anything that would move the needle for my friends? And I had to get out of my own way and get, you know, that was a self imposed prison that I had in my own mind. So I had to get rid of that. That's been the struggle.

[A]

Yeah. Finding something new to say and getting out of your head about needing it to be impressive.

[B]

Right. Because then I had to ask myself, why am I doing it? Is it to impress my friends? No, it's actually not. It's to express myself.

[A]

Do you like what you've been creating?

[B]

I do, I do. I'm liking it more and more now.

[A]

Okay, that's exciting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So do you plan to release your project?

[B]

I hope to. However, the reason why I'm doing it is not necessarily for a release or for any kind of critical acclaim. It's really, for me, it's to go through the process of doing it and at the end, if the world hears it, great. If the only people that hear it are my cats and my friends, then so be it.

[A]

Okay, That's a good attitude to have. I'm just gonna check the time. Okay, we're gonna wrap up. Thank you so much for all that you've shared so far. I think you've provided just a lot of great perspective and insight for everybody listening on building a career because everybody's path is different. What advice would you have to someone coming up in the music industry or in any really creative career field?

[B]

Run.

[A]

Run where?

[B]

Away.

[A]

Run away.

[B]

No, I'm kidding. Understand why you're doing it, what is your motivation and whatever that is. Then embrace It. Accept it, and then make every move from that point forward to reach that goal.

[A]

Well, you make it sound very simple.

[B]

What is. Mm. It's simple in execution. It doesn't mean that you got it. You can actually do it, but that should be the mindset.

[A]

Say it again. Know why you're doing it?

[B]

No. Ask yourself why you're doing it. What is the goal? Why. Why do I. Why am I in music?

[A]

Is any goal good, in your opinion? What if it's like to be famous?

[B]

Yeah. I'm not here to judge what anyone's goals are. You know, if someone says, hey, I need to get a little. Get a little exercise, well, somebody might go, you know, I don't know, climb Mount Everest. Someone else might just walk around the block, you know, for five minutes. The goal is the same. I need some exercise. It's such a vague statement, but it. I can't judge.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

What that is. So.

[A]

So know why you're doing it.

[B]

Know why you're doing it.

[A]

And wake up every day and move forward toward that.

[B]

Yeah. Work towards that goal. It's like we get in a car, we're gonna go to get some food, and let's get in the car and drive towards food.

[A]

Don't drive in the opposite direction.

[B]

Yeah. And if you happen to find yourself in the opposite direction, then accept that you are there. And then just know that this isn't the way you want to go. Sometimes you got to find something. You pull a string. Pull every string that's given to you. Right. Pull every thread, because you never know how that's going to affect you. Something you do today, and you're going, why am I doing this? I think I'm getting further from my goal. But you don't realize that that's the detour you needed to go around the world says, you know, move to the right. And you don't know why. Why is my GPS routing me this way? That's not the way I go to work every day. Why is it telling me to get off on this exit? And you question it. But if you actually get off on the exit and then you were to take a viewpoint and you look at, you know, well, maybe you avoided an accident. There's a shutdown on the freeway that you didn't know about. So sometimes you have to just follow the thread and then find. Learn whatever it is that. That that moment was teaching you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that can apply to what you're doing.

[A]

I think, from my perspective, some takeaways that I would get from this conversation from you would be continue to work on your craft, like, no matter what. Right. Because that's from your stories. Like, what had opened up a lot of opportunities for you. You didn't wait and sit there and say, well, I'm a baseball. I should have these opportunities. You continue to work on your craft. Create things. Create things. Focus on creating the art and. And then say yes. And take. And say yes to yourself. And be brave enough to run up to Al in a parking lot or whatever it is. Right. Like, to put yourself out there when the time is right or even when the time is not right. Right. Like at any time.

[B]

Just don't be afraid to look. Fear. Fear is the one thing that holds us all back.

[A]

I think so. I think that's huge. I mean, I think this whole podcast really is just getting over fear.

[B]

Yeah. We can talk ourselves out of everything if we give enough time.

[A]

I had a friend this morning texting me about her art show. She's exhibiting tomorrow and I'm gonna stop by and support her and invited a few friends to come with me. And she said to me, well, I was afraid to, you know, put this out there. I don't want people to feel obligated to come on a Saturday. And there's this other curator that I want to invite, but I'm not going to. I'm scared to send her the email. I'm like, genuine question, like, why would you not. Why would you not send her the email? And she literally had not asked herself that. So to answer me, she had to think, yeah, why would I not? What's the worst that could happen? You know, what am I afraid of? And it just. Then she emailed the curator and then texted me back right away, oh, my God, she's coming. Like, you just. Yeah, good for her, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's what it's about.

[B]

Fear stops us in our tracks. And it's all. The majority of it's self, self imposed. If we remove our fear in life, we can go so far.

[A]

I agree. I agree. Is there anything else you want to add before we close?

[B]

Just want to thank you for having me.

[A]

Absolutely. Where can people find you and follow you and check out what you've got going on?

[B]

You'll find me stumbling around the streets of Pasadena. Come up and say, hey, okay, go

[A]

find him in a parking lot.

[B]

Yeah, I like to frequent parking lots looking for opportunities. That's it. That's it. Yeah. I don't know if you really care. Find me on the Internet. I'm there. Apparently it has very good things to say.

[A]

It has very good things to say. Where on the Internet can they find you?

[B]

I have a website. I've got a. I don't know. I've got a Google. No, I don't have a Google. I've got a. What do I have? He is 83 of MySpace. I've got a Friendster page. I don't know what is.

[A]

Tai Long Lee, everybody. Thank you so much.

[B]

Yeah, thanks for having me.