What it Means to be an American

Summary

Dream Life Club with Sumi Krishnan

Episode: What it Means to be an American
Date: November 13, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and candid episode, host Sumi Krishnan sits down with a co-host to deeply explore the question: What does it mean to be an American today? Rooted in a conversation sparked by Memorial Day and ongoing debates about patriotism, the episode examines themes of American identity, the military, the country’s fractured sense of values, the left vs. right divide over patriotism and nationalism, and the changing nature of America's role in the world.

In true Dream Life Club fashion, Sumi brings sharp insights, tough questions, and optimism, while her co-host offers both cynicism and hope. Their banter is filled with wit, memorable analogies, and a willingness to challenge beliefs—making this a powerful listen for any woman entrepreneur, leader, or citizen seeking clarity and hope in confusing times.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Military, Patriotism, and the “American Ideal”

• Memorial Day Sparks the Conversation
  • With the holiday in the rearview mirror, Sumi expresses sadness and conflict about seeing veterans return to a fraught country.
  • "I do have a lot of good friends who are vets...who served their country for what? To defend the quote, unquote freedoms that this country supposedly stands for." (07:20 - Sumi)
• Motivations for Service
  • Co-host brings up cynicism about why young Americans join the military, referencing cultural stereotypes, while Sumi points to structural problems in recruiting from disadvantaged neighborhoods.
  • “That’s a mean stereotype, but it’s true there’s recruiting in economically disadvantaged neighborhoods...preying on people who have no real good prospects.” (10:00 - Sumi)
• Disillusionment with American Values
  • Sumi asks, "What have they even fought for? What are we fighting for now?" They discuss how ideals like equality are contradicted by persistent realities like racism and unequal opportunity.

2. Nihilism vs. Hope: "Making the World a Better Place"

• Defining and Debating Nihilism
  • Co-host explains nihilism: "This worldview is just like: missions like that are naive and stupid. Fuck that. I'm just gonna try to get mine and leave here as happy as I can be." (16:42 - Co-host)
  • Sumi forcefully rejects nihilism: “That’s pretty much the most disgusting worldview I’ve ever encountered. I relate to zero percent of that.” (17:11 - Sumi)
• Empathy for Suffering, Limits on Cynicism
  • Co-host grants understanding for those whose experience is "an unending sequence of suffering," like children in Gaza, but questions affluent nihilism: “Now take a suburban white kid from New Jersey who has that exact same mindset... that’s where I get pissed off." (18:36 - Co-host)
  • Sumi insists, “If somebody who isn’t 17 anymore is still going to decide to believe that, like, get over yourself. Like, grow the fuck up.” (19:19 - Sumi)
• The Inescapable Interconnectedness of Society
  • “You kind of start to realize things are interconnected.” (26:54 - Sumi)

3. Capitalism, Democracy, and Self-Interest

• Is Selfishness Inherent to American Institutions?
  • Co-host tries to link nihilism to capitalism and democracy: “Isn’t that kind of the core of capitalism—everyone just making a better life for themselves?” (20:10 - Co-host)
  • Sumi makes a distinction: “Capitalism is genius—but not unrestricted. That’s why you need government setting bounds to that.” (21:34 - Sumi)
• Capitalism vs. Socialism: The False Binary
  • Both agree that demonization of capitalism on the left is too simplistic; balance and regulation are key.
  • “I don’t believe capitalism is inherently evil... just like with socialism, when left to go on its own, bad things happen.” (22:46 - Co-host)

4. American Ideals: History, Symbols, and Manipulation

• Do We Still Believe in America’s “Experiment”?
  • Sumi: “We have to believe in the aspirations of what America was built on—the ideals, even if never executed. Otherwise, we’d each just make up our own ideals.” (27:26, 28:29 - Sumi)
• Symbols Twisted for Political Ends
  • Long riff on how American symbols and founding texts (the Constitution, Statue of Liberty) are manipulated by both sides.
  • “Anything—Bible, Quran, whatever—it’s possible for someone to use that book... symbols are good at that… I think you can twist any of that stuff.” (33:32 - Co-host)
• The Core Tension:
  • Sumi sees hope in rooting progress in those enduring ideals; co-host argues this often just feeds partisan confirmation bias.

5. Patriotism vs. Nationalism: Who Owns “Loving America”?

• Why Did the Left Cede Patriotism?
  • The hosts bemoan how progressives have let the right monopolize patriotism:
    • “Why did the left cede loving this country to the right?” (38:13 - Co-host)
• Patriotism Is Not Nationalism
  • “Nationalism means you believe you are better than everyone else... patriotism is having pride and wanting to make this thing better.” (38:43 - Sumi)
• Taking Patriotism and Religion Back
  • Sumi: “I think we need to take back patriotism. And religion. The left needs to take religion back.” (39:47 - Sumi)
• Nuanced on Military
  • Sumi makes clear: “I'm pro-vet, but the defense budget is wildly out of control.” (41:44 - Sumi)

6. America’s Waning Influence and Political Future

• Losing Soft Power and the Global Leadership Role
  • The hosts acknowledge that even in a best-case scenario, America’s reputation and global sway have been damaged.
  • “We’re going to be paying for those sins for a while... at least the hope for me is it’s not going to become Handmaid’s Tale.” (55:22 - Co-host)
• Impeachment Fantasies and The Unique Power of Trump
  • They muse about possible scenarios if Trump left office, and the co-host argues:
    • “If whatever cosmic event occurs that for whatever reason, Trump is no longer in charge—I think all falls apart. I think the entire MAGA thing, it goes away.” (51:24 - Co-host)
    • “Trump is one of one... No politician in history can do what he did.” (52:43 - Co-host)
• Education as a Solution
  • Both agree improving education is crucial to progress:
    • “Solution is also education. For sure.” (37:01 - Sumi)

7. Joe Rogan, the Media, and White Male Confidence

• Frustration at the “Rogan Effect”
  • Sumi: “Can I just say one thing? Fuck Rogan.” (55:53 - Sumi)
  • Extended riff on how the Joe Rogan phenomenon—and his indifference—reflects larger privilege:
    • “Rogan’s a white dude. He doesn’t realize the severity of it... he doesn’t need to think about the danger.” (57:17 - Co-host)
• Who Is the “Rogan of the Left”?
  • Joking that it’s not Ezra Klein, and that maybe Dream Life Club will take that role:
    • “Who is it? Us. No, just kidding. Yes.” (60:56 - Sumi & Co-host)

8. Returning to Hope

• Ending on a Note of Optimism
  • “You just gave me a lot of hope... that's maybe what we all have to just keep holding on for.” (54:32 - Sumi)
  • “That’s another thing to be optimistic about. We love y’all, we’re in this together.” (61:48 - Both)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “That’s pretty much the most disgusting worldview I’ve ever encountered. I relate to zero percent of that.” (17:11 - Sumi)
• “If somebody who isn’t 17 anymore is still going to decide to believe that, like, get over yourself. Like, grow the fuck up.” (19:19 - Sumi)
• “I think capitalism is genius. But I don’t think it can be unrestricted. That’s why I believe in having the power of a fucked up government.” (21:34 - Sumi)
• “Why did the left cede loving this country to the right? Bring back patriotism—not racist.” (38:13 - Co-host)
• “Patriotism is wanting to make the country you live in better... Nationalism is exclusionary.” (38:52 - Sumi)
• “Trump is one of one. There is no...politician on earth who has ever been able to do that. And when he goes, that coalition falls apart.” (52:43 - Co-host)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Military Motivations, Memorial Day Reflections – 07:20–11:25
• Nihilism vs. Hope, Interconnectedness – 15:29–19:19
• Debate on Capitalism & Socialism – 21:03–22:55
• Manipulation of Symbols & Ideals – 28:29–34:03
• Patriotism, Nationalism, and Taking it Back – 38:13–42:19
• America’s Waning Global Role & Hope for the Future – 44:49–55:53
• Joe Rogan, White Male Confidence, Media Influence – 55:53–60:56
• Sign-Off: Optimism and Camaraderie – 61:11–end

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Tone & Style

The episode blends frank political and cultural analysis with humor, banter, and the occasional side-trip into song or impressions (see: “Proud to Be an American” in Oliver Twist’s accent, 05:01). Sumi’s passionate optimism complements the co-host’s sharp, sometimes sardonic edge, resulting in lively, relatable, and deeply authentic conversation.

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Takeaway

“We have to believe in the aspirations of what America was built on...hold onto those ideals and keep working together toward them.” – Sumi (27:26, 28:29)

The hosts urge listeners—especially women leaders and entrepreneurs—to not give up on America’s best ideals, despite setbacks and cynicism. The fight for justice, progress, and community is ongoing, and hope is both a choice and a necessity.

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Final Words:
"We love y’all, we’re in this together. We’re gonna do this." (61:48)

Transcript

[A]

Hey guys, before we get into the episode, we just want to let you know. We just want to let you know that.

[B]

Are we rehearsing or just. Okay. Okay. Gotcha.

[A]

Hey guys, before we get into the episode, we just wanted to let you know that this podcast. Wait, before we get into the episode, before we get into today's episode, we just wanted to let you know that this one was recorded this past. This one was recorded summer of 2025. And we're re releasing it here. We're re releasing it here. Enjoy or not? No, enjoy. Don't enjoy this. So how do you want to split it up?

[B]

Oh, man. Now it feels weird. You want to assign sentences. We could do like a talking heads kind of thing.

[A]

Hey, guys.

[B]

Hey, guys, this episode was released in.

[A]

How about hey, guys, before we get. But hey, guys, before you get into the episode, then we just wanted to let you know that this podcast was recorded in summer of 2025. We're re releasing it here.

[B]

Fuck it. Let's try it. This will be fun. Okay. You starting it.

[A]

Hey, guys.

[B]

You'Re about to take a bite of something elbow here. We could.

[A]

It's fine.

[B]

Okay. Wait, wait, no, hang on. Wait, wait, wait. If we take turns doing this. No, no. It's going to sound so fucking weird and awk.

[A]

Cause you just delete the space.

[B]

No. Cause you're gonna. There's no way to delete the. It would sound like, edited then. So it would just go from like. So here. It'll. We could probably just talk here.

[A]

Okay. Let me like, stand on this or something.

[B]

Okay, you're saying I have a height advantage? No. It'd probably be easier if I slouched. Oh, yeah.

[A]

How about this?

[B]

That is a terrible solution to that problem. What? That is so impractical. That's better than.

[A]

But this works, right?

[B]

I mean, now you're taller than me and I'm feeling insecure.

[A]

Now I have a height advantage.

[B]

Yeah, there's a tall woman around me. I'm feeling insecure right now. Okay. My power has been reduced.

[A]

We should release this.

[B]

Well, of course we're going to release this. No, this is all the. This is the intro. No, this has to stay in.

[A]

Hey, guys. Hey, guys. Hey, guys. Hey, guys. Hey, guys. Before we get into the episode.

[B]

Before we get into another fantastic episode.

[A]

It's ridiculous.

[B]

Another side splitting episode.

[A]

We don't need to like, put adjectives to describe.

[B]

Let those nice, warm and comfy.

[A]

Hey, guys, before we get into the episode.

[B]

Don't say the episode. Say the name of the podcast.

[A]

No, not here. What? Because we say it next.

[B]

But it's funny every time. Here, look me in the eye and tell me it's not funny. Every single time. You hear that bleep.

[A]

I don't think it's that fun. It's your joke.

[B]

Damn it. Damn it, Damn it. I feel like I see you giggle. Just not as hard as me maybe.

[A]

Alright. Hey guys, before we get into the episode of what the do we do now?

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Yay.

[B]

You should know that this was recorded earlier in summer 2025 and we're just.

[A]

Re releasing it here for you guys to enjoy.

[B]

I love you. Wait, that's not right.

[A]

We love you. Oh, you name the voice and I'll try to. I'm so bad at impressions, man.

[B]

You're bad at impressions? So bad. Then we should do a whole podcast of you doing impressions, but only because you're bad at them.

[A]

Name a voice.

[B]

45 year old white male Trump voter.

[A]

Oh, shoot.

[B]

That was good.

[A]

And I'm proud. And I'm proud to be American. Cause at least I know I'm. That was really. It's really bad. It's really bad. Not it.

[B]

Not it. As a 45 year old Trump voter, I'm very offended that you.

[A]

And I'm proud to be an American. Cause at least I know I'm free. And I won't forget the man who died who gave that right to me. Okay, next.

[B]

Yeah. All right. That was not bad. Oh, now seeing it. I know.

[A]

Ariana Grande.

[B]

Okay, now seeing it as a. Now seeing it as a poncey British schoolboy.

[A]

Ooh. And I'm proud to be an American. Cause at least I know I'm free.

[B]

I didn't hear the British.

[A]

No, I forgot all the British.

[B]

What am I doing? That's okay.

[A]

Okay, let me try again. I'm so bad. I don't even know what ponce means. What does that mean?

[B]

Like a fancy boy.

[A]

Fancy boy.

[B]

I just did that in a German accent. Sorry.

[A]

And I'm proud to be. And that's not British. I'm so bad at accent.

[B]

Ponce. British school. Like Oliver Twist. Do I want Oliver Twist?

[A]

Sound like singing that you do me.

[B]

Oliver Twist, please, sir. Oh, yeah.

[A]

Come up.

[B]

I'm proud to be an American.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Honestly.

[A]

Oh, that's so good. And I'm proud to be. No, I can't do it. Can't do it.

[B]

It's tough. Well, you're singing proud to be an American in a British accent, which I feel is.

[A]

And I'm proud to be an America. An American. Cause at least I know I'm free yeah. Oh, man. You do it. You sing it.

[B]

And I'm proud to be an American that's so good. Cause at least I know I'm. What?

[A]

That was amazing.

[B]

Was it? That was so good. I gave you. That was a setup. I wanted just me to do it the whole time.

[A]

I want you to do the end.

[B]

Cause I'm proud to be an American. Where at least I know I'm. That's him being worried he's gonna get beaten. Where at least I know I'm free that's so good. He's, like, in his bedchambers while the headmaster's walking the hall. No one in here better be proud to be an American.

[A]

Why does he have an American accent?

[B]

That guy does, but poor Oliver Twist doesn't.

[A]

Why does he. Oh, my God.

[B]

Because in this scenario, he's in America and he's been brainwashed by the headmaster, but for some reason, he hasn't lost his British accent.

[A]

This is getting weirder and weirder. Well, that was fun.

[B]

That was fun. What do we want to talk about today?

[A]

I think what it means to be an American today, right? Because, look, we just had Memorial Day, which was.

[B]

Welcome to summer, everybody. Barbecues, an American flag, swim trunks.

[A]

Like, the thing that makes me really sad is, like, I do have a lot of good friends who are vets, right? Who, like, served in the armed forces. Served their country for what? To defend the quote, unquote freedoms that this country supposedly stands for.

[B]

Can I give you a really cynical take on what you just said?

[A]

I didn't even say anything yet, but okay, okay.

[B]

That's okay. I don't need much. You just wait. So you said you know vets who proudly. Who serve their country.

[A]

It's really easy having a conversation with you because I don't even need to have a full thought, but you'll take it somewhere.

[B]

That'S called me. Just waiting for my turn to talk and not listening. I just listened to the last three words you said and I was like.

[A]

Can I say something?

[B]

She breathes. Okay, I can go now.

[A]

My turn.

[B]

It's the worst. I'm so sorry.

[A]

No, you got that? I'm curious.

[B]

No, wait, really? Well, I guess I kind of jumped to a thing when you start talking and then I just let you finish, which is what I did. But anyway, a really cynical version of what you just said instead of, like, you know some vets who proudly serve their country is because I know some vets who proudly had nothing else to do after high school and wanted the Dodge Challenger. Oh. So they signed up and then got their little bonus. Went to the local Chevy dealership.

[A]

Wait, they literally got a Dodge Challenger for some reason.

[B]

It's like a joke about. I don't know if it's Challenger. What's the. There's a thing about, like, we come.

[A]

From such different worlds.

[B]

I don't come from. I think it's like a. Yeah, no, that's true, actually. We definitely do. But there's like, this joke about newly enlisted dudes. There's a few. There's a few tropes about them. After they get their recruitment bonus or whatever it's called, they immediately go buy a Dodge super something fast with a Hemi in it.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

And then they. And then they get married before they leave. Because you get a bonus if you're married. And then that woman proceeds to have sex with every other person on the base while that person's gone. No, that's like the thing. It's like, why did you. Like, y' all had been together for three months before, and now he's leaving and you decided to get married.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What did you think was gonna happen? Yeah, that's like a. You know, that's a mean stereotype about newly enlisted men because then they go overseas. We.

[A]

Oh, I shouldn't eat.

[B]

We, as a country, rob them of their physicality and give them ptsd, and then they come back and we say, thank you for your service.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Which. None of that is cynical, but the part about where did they really sign up because they wanted to fight for their country? Or did they sign up because they were a C student and didn't have much else going on? Well, which is so mean and not fair.

[A]

But I think that it also is like, one of the arguments against how, you know, how we recruit for our armed forces is we go into economically disadvantaged neighborhoods and prey on people who have, you know, no real good prospects in front of them, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's. I mean, I can't argue.

[B]

Well, I guess that's kind of like all stereotypes come from somewhere because there are so many enlisted people who. And members of armed services who don't have that as their background are in it for, you know, the. I don't wanna say in it for the right reasons, but that isn't their thing. But let's.

[A]

It's also a lot too. But. Okay. But let's just even out that playing field anyways and just say, well, everyone's in it and everyone's in it. Right, but they all have. Once you're in it, you've got the same experience. But the sad thing, the completely. The thing that destroys me now completely is that, like, what have they even fought for? Yeah, like, what are. And what are they fighting for? Fighting for.

[B]

I bet it destroys them a lot more than it destroys you.

[A]

The weird thing is I don't know that it does. Right. Because the people in the armed forces are really brainwashed to just stay out of politics. Stay out of politics completely. Right. Like you're some of them. But I mean, that's the culture. Right. Like, you're not allowed to speak out against political administrations. You're not allowed to.

[B]

Oh, yeah, you're supposed to serve the commander in chief regardless of who it is.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Isn't it a thing, though, where military tends to, like, when you poll them, don't they tend to be further right leaning? That's like a thing, right?

[A]

That's a thing. Well, within the enlisted, I think.

[B]

Within. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Yeah. Not amongst the officers, I don't think necessarily. But anyways, like, I think though, like, if we're coming back to the point of, like, why? What does it mean to be an American? Like, what are people even fighting for these days? Like, what are we fighting for now? Like, now we're fighting for the exact opposite of the principles that this country was ideally founded on. Of course, it's never been true. Like, since the foundation of this country, we've had slavery. So it's like those two things were in opposition since the beginning. But at least the ideals that we proclaimed were things that I think we should keep fighting for. And those things are now not the embodiment of who we are.

[B]

I don't know, dude. I think when this country was first founded, we were fighting for the rights of white male proprietors, property owners. And I think now finally we are back to that.

[A]

Well, that's again, a very simple way.

[B]

Of looking at it. That's the best thing that has ever happened in this country. Based on what I just said, he was the first person to finally get us back to our true roots. Protecting white male landowners.

[A]

I think. I think the ideals that were established.

[B]

I'm being super.

[A]

The American experiment of like, okay, the idea of America as an idea.

[B]

Yeah. As it's sold to us or as we like to sell it to ourselves.

[A]

As we like to sell it to ourselves. Because what else are we gonna do?

[B]

Yeah, well, if you're gonna be nationalistic at all, you gotta believe your country is cool.

[A]

Or if you're just gonna be a living human being who wants a happy place to live and to create a better society for everybody. You've got to believe in something. Right?

[B]

Like, okay, I've done a pretty good job so far. Are you believing in anything?

[A]

Are you gonna go start a new country that believes in your ideals? You know, like. Or you could just.

[B]

That's what always. That's the I'm gonna move to Canada thing. Right. Cause that's after every election or before. Before every election there's always that group from either side.

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

Actually the right doesn't usually say they're gonna go to Canada.

[A]

Where do they say?

[B]

They say get the fuck out.

[A]

Where do they. Oh yes.

[B]

The right tells us, right says leave. The left says I'm going to Canada.

[A]

They want to go be a fisherman on the coast of Italy. Go be an immigrant asshole.

[B]

That's why. Maybe that's why they always say get out. Cause they don't want to go anywhere else. Maybe they know they won't be accepted anywhere. They're a bigotry won't. No, I totally would be. There's bigots in every country.

[A]

No. Oh, you meant that. I thought you meant they said they wanted to get the fuck out of the way.

[B]

I feel like. Don't they usually say get the hell out of here?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like, if you don't like it. No, exactly. Because according to them, this is white man's land. Everybody else should get the fuck out of here.

[B]

To be fair, it was in the Constitution at one point.

[A]

Wait, it was?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

What did it say?

[B]

White male landowner, that's who the constitute. We had to add a bunch of amendments to fix that shit.

[A]

Okay, but we added amendments.

[B]

We did. And that is literally in the Constitution now. Yeah, but there are large groups of people.

[A]

Again, ideals again. The idea that the moral arc of.

[B]

The universe, you know, leans towards better.

[A]

Leans towards justice.

[B]

Yeah. Leans towards justice.

[A]

Yeah, leans towards justice. That's that old saying.

[B]

I think I truly do you truly believe that? I truly believe that.

[A]

Wow, you do?

[B]

I think over a long enough period of time, we do bend towards that with interruptions. But I think if you zoom out far enough, you can get it. You can, you can. I think you can see the needle start moving in a positive direction if you zoom out far enough.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think, am I naive for believing that?

[A]

I think that.

[B]

Am I white male for believing that?

[A]

To me I feel like that's the only thing we can believe. Like, but that's my Worldview in general. Like, I kind of feel like you can decide what to believe. Right. And, like, why pick a belief that is going to make your life worse? Like, you might as well pick the belief that's going to give you the most hope and the most chance of, like, making a change for the better.

[B]

Well, explain nihilism then. Yeah, explain the. Like, I think here I'll play devil's advocate because like I said, obviously I agree with what you just said. That's been my core. My. One of my core beliefs as well. Or one of the things I keep coming back to, but I'll give credence. Yeah. Because I think we've all felt that way. At least I know I have. There are times when just saying, fuck it and saying, the world is fucked. Everything is fucked. I bow out.

[A]

What do you do when you bow out, though?

[B]

You embrace nihilism, but how you embrace that. The. It's kind of a anarchist ish ethos in that, like, the world sucks. The world will always.

[A]

Is that a punk rock ethos a little bit too?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's shared amongst a bunch of groups like that, and that's definitely one of them. Like, this is fucked. It's not gonna get better. And putting any effort into trying to improve it is pointless. And you're better spent just trying to drain as much of your own happiness out of life as you possibly can.

[A]

And what does drain, you mean? Oh, squeeze.

[B]

You're in it for yourself.

[A]

You mean squeeze as much happiness?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

When you're done with. When you're leaving your mortal coil, when you're leaving this earth, you want to hold as much happiness out of this experience as you possibly have. And it's a very different way of thinking than, I want to leave the world a better place. I had a mission, and did I accomplish it or not? This worldview is just like. Missions like that are naive and stupid. Fuck that. I'm just gonna try to get mine and leave here as happy as I can be.

[A]

Yeah. I think that's pretty much the most disgusting worldview I've ever encountered. Like, I relate to zero percent of that. Zero. Zero.

[B]

You've never felt like.

[A]

No, no, not to that extent.

[B]

I've definitely felt that way before. I've def. And not only just felt that way before. I can sympathize 100%. I can sympathize with people who feel that way.

[A]

Well, that sucks.

[B]

Well, okay. I bet I can make it make sense to you with an example. Okay, go let's say your experience in life has been a completely irredeemable, unending sequence of suffering after suffering your entire life. And there are so many people in this world who have that experience, whose lives are so immeasurably worse.

[A]

Being born and now living in Gaza.

[B]

I mean, great example. Holy shit. If you're a kid born in. Oh, my God. Born in that part of the world, and that's been your entire life, and your view is that this world is filled with awful people who are just trying to hurt each other. Why the hell would anyone try and save it? You know what? I just hope I can get to the grave with a. Some happiness before I die. And for someone whose grave could be any second from now, because a shell is gonna hit them, I'm not gonna judge them for living that way.

[A]

I get that.

[B]

I guess now you can now take a suburban white kid from New Jersey who has that exact same mindset, who has not.

[A]

That's where I get pissed off for sure.

[B]

Okay. And that I understand. But also, like, you know, those are emo kids, and I was an emo kid, so I kind of grew up.

[A]

You grow out of it, though, hopefully.

[B]

Do I? Did I?

[A]

I mean, you did I. I don't know.

[B]

Did I?

[A]

Did you?

[B]

No, not always. I revert back to that mindset, but I think. I think.

[A]

I don't think it's a good mindset, though. Like, that's where I come down on the idea that, like, we have choice over our mindset. Right. And if somebody who is mature enough, like, isn't 17 anymore is gonna decide to still believe that, like, I'm sort of like, get over yourself. Like, grow the fuck up.

[B]

At this point, any nihilists or anarchists listening to this right now, you just heard it. Grow the fuck up.

[A]

Grow the fuck up. Yeah. And decide to do something.

[B]

That was cute when you were 17.

[A]

That was cute. Decide now to do something that means something with your life.

[B]

You know, start a podcast.

[A]

Try to make the world a better place. Try. Try to make the world a better place.

[B]

I cannot argue with that at all. I sympathize with people with that mindset and, well. Oh, man. You know, what I'm trying to do right now is I'm trying to think if there is a place in this world for them. Like, is the world a better place for having people like that in it to a certain up to a certain percentage? I agree. The world will be awesome.

[A]

I like making arguments for every side, but I can't even begin to See an argument for how the world might be a better place with those people in it. I'mma get mine and squeeze every bit of pleasure I can and fuck this world.

[B]

Okay, hang on. Ah, it's. This is a stretch. So I don't know, you might be able to easily bat this down, but isn't that kind of a core fundamental component of capitalism and even by extension democracy.

[A]

Democracy, no.

[B]

Vote in your own best interest. In fact, the right got to where they are by, and this is a common talking point on the left, convincing people to vote against their self interests. If those poor people who have been voting for rich people tax breaks this whole time hadn't been doing that and instead had been voting for their actual own economic self interests, this country literally would be in a better place right now. But they didn't. They were manipulating.

[A]

You're making a really excellent point, but. Yes, but your connection to animalism, nihilism. How do you pronounce that word?

[B]

Nihilism?

[A]

Annihilism. Your connection is very weak because you've taken one tiny thing and you're excellent at doing this. Yeah, the one thing from about just the self interest. But yeah, no, but that was a good point.

[B]

I think the relationship to capitalism is less strained than the one to democracy. The one to democracy is pretty strained.

[A]

Yeah. Capitalism, the relationship we really are supposed.

[B]

Capitalism'S fuel is greed.

[A]

Well, here's the thing. I think that capitalism is actually genius. Right? Like, but we need.

[B]

Ooh, wait, really?

[A]

Oh yeah, but I don't think it can't be. I wouldn't have guessed you had that thought about capitalism. But it can't be unrestricted capitalism. Like that's why I believe in having the power of a fucked up government. Right. But like I don't. I think capitalism plays onto every human's innate selfishness without taking it to. And then government comes in and says okay, but there's bounds to that, you know.

[B]

Okay, I love everything you just said. Cause I assumed this whole time you were a socialist.

[A]

You did not.

[B]

No, I did not. Honestly though, we haven't really talked about that whole capitalism where we have not. Yeah, because on the left like it, the demonization of capitalism is a pretty common thing, Right.

[A]

Especially now.

[B]

And that's actually somewhere. So we'll only talk about this briefly.

[A]

But I think that's a whole nother episode.

[B]

Yeah, it is, it is. But I'm just so we know where we're at. I'm a hundred percent with you and I honestly think that has excluded me from some Conversations on the left. Because I don't believe capitalism is inherently evil. I think exactly what you just said, that it's a fantastic idea when balanced, when controlled. And I think similarly about socialism. The idea of, like helping your fellow man and the government caring about everyone is great, except it's when left to go on its own, just like with capitalism left, bad things happen.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So. So I'm 100% with you on that. And I love that you. I love that you said that. Being said, what I was, when I was thinking earlier was trying to make the connection between nihilists or that, like, fuck it all mindset. And if they have a place in this world, right? If they can contribute, if they contribute.

[A]

To making this world a better place.

[B]

But wait, what if. Okay, so much in the same way that, like the fuel of capitalism is, you know, the. An individual going like, well, I want to make a better life for myself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when you expand that mindset amongst an entire population, the goal is everyone makes a better life for themselves. Isn't that wonderful?

[A]

Right.

[B]

What if this world was just filled with people who didn't give a fuck about anyone else and only wanted to make their own lives better?

[A]

I literally think that's the definition of hell. Okay, have you heard that old analogy? There's some. It's maybe from the Bible or someplace where they're like, people are trapped, sitting in a circle, and they're supposed to be in hell or something. I think I'm probably getting this so wrong. But they have their hand. There's like a big pile of food in the middle or something. And they're all starving to death because their hands are outstretched and they can't reach their mouths. Their hands are like tied straight in front of them. They can't reach their mouths, but they could literally just turn to the side and feed the next person with their hand outstretched, but they never do. And that's fucking hell. Is that in the Bible or something? Where did I get that from? It's something.

[B]

I don't think. I mean, I don't think that's in the Bible, but it's a great analogy. I'm sure it's from somewhere.

[A]

Yeah, it's from something.

[B]

Some proverb.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And that's really interesting.

[B]

So that's hell. Wait, when you say that's hell, that's the worst possible version of existence?

[A]

I think so.

[B]

I feel like there's worse ones.

[A]

Being so selfish and only concerned about yourself, I think that makes you.

[B]

What if rather than being only concerned about yourself. You are only concerned with hurting others. Okay, okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's the worst world.

[A]

You win.

[B]

You win. That's what I do. I just take that ridiculous thing and I just turn it way up. I know that's terrible, but. Well, I won because you went to an extreme. And anytime someone goes to an extreme, it's always easy to poke a hole.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That being said.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I don't want to discourage you from going to an extreme, though. Always do that. Please. Always go to an extreme. Because then I can. I do that a lot too.

[A]

I don't like going to extremes.

[B]

I do that too, though. I always take things to an extreme, so. Okay. I don't think. I guess. Yeah. It's unquestionable that a world where you care about your fellow man is definitely better than a world where you don't. I just. Yeah. I want to try and feel sympathy for people who don't give a fuck about the system and think it's all fucked and pointless and are just in it for themselves, I guess. Cause I kind of consider them harmless. Are they harmless? Are they useless?

[A]

I think they're useless and harmless. I don't know. Right. Because if they are being an example for anybody, like their kids, then they're harmful. Right. And they, you know, if they're harmless at work, well, they're probably harmful because they're not serving the common mission. They might be more likely to cheat and bribe and kill and do shit if it serves their purposes.

[B]

You don't care about other people you serve. About your own aptitude. I didn't think about that. Yeah. You know, what you're kind of getting at is. And I think this is a thing that. I think a big reason why that ethos or that mindset dies as you get older is because it is so easy to find holes in it. Okay. You're only out for yourself and the system sucks. What are you gonna do for a job? Okay, go to your job. You're still only out for yourself. Or do you have to do what your boss tells you and your co worker over there? If you don't help them right now, that's actually gonna make your life worse. So maybe you should help. Okay, you're helping them now, so you are helping your. Like, how far back do we have to live?

[A]

You kind of start to realize things are interconnected.

[B]

That's it. I think, maybe. Wow. I'm sort of just like, I don't hate people with that mindset, but it is so goddamn immature because we are all interconnected.

[A]

Cause we are.

[B]

That analogy you had about the hand, that's not the world we live in, but that's a part of the world we live in that does exist to a degree. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Okay, I can't defend those people, but they're here, they're out here.

[A]

My thing is, since we're all American and we have to figure out what it means to be an American today, I think that what we do is we believe. We have to. We have to. I don't think we have any other choice. Like, we have to believe in the aspirations of what America was built on, the idea and ideals of what America could be. And we have to keep holding those close and working together towards that.

[B]

Hmm. How important is the existing idea of America to the vision that you have for America? Is it necessary to get to where you see the country going? Or do you think it doesn't really matter where we came from, we just need to go, we need to just do better? Or do you think it's important to always keep in mind, well, this is how we started. This is what we've done, this is who we have been. And then thus that should inform who we are.

[A]

I think we need something to like, keep us together. Because if we just, like every person has their own vision for America. There's nothing connected, right? But like the principles that America was founded on, not always executed on, never executed on, but the principles and ideals that we were founded on were things like equality, right? Everybody is equal. It started, right, wasn't executed like that, but that was the idea, right? And things like, you know, human rights and things like due process, like things like, you know, innocent until proven guilty, like things like that. Like we need to hold whatever good was back then stated as like the ideals and then build from there because that's what connects us all. Like, otherwise we would each just make up our own set of ideals. But we can't do that.

[B]

Hmm. We need that to hold us together. Okay. Damn. I think you're right. But what's giving me pause is just how God damn easy it is to twist and manipulate. Similar to religion in that, like you can take any holy book and twist it to make it mean what you want it to mean. It's a tale as old as time. Anything, Bible, Quran, whatever it is, it's possible for someone to use that book, an authority figure, and preach a message that maybe wasn't actually at all in line with that. And I think the Constitution can be similar. I think this country's ideals. I think the things you just mentioned are great fundamental components of any Statue of government. Liberty.

[A]

You know, like this idea bringing your.

[B]

Tired and you're poor. Yeah, yeah. We don't do that. We don't want them no more. We don't like immigrants no more. More, apparently.

[A]

But that ideal, like, I don't know. Like.

[B]

Yeah, but. Okay, wait, wait. I'm just gonna. Let me play devil's advocate like a motherfucker for a second, because I'm just gonna tell you the twisted version of everything you just said. The Statue of Liberty. We don't. They're just sending us. They're criminals and they're rapists. We don't want that. We want white people from Europe. That's what the Statue of Liberty meant.

[A]

Ew. Ew, ew. You're just talking Trump now. What are you doing?

[B]

That's what I'm playing devil's advocate. I'm twisting it. What I'm doing is twisting all those ideals you just said that we should have.

[A]

Okay, bring me. You're tired and you're poor.

[B]

Yeah. White people, they're tired because they just got done going to college.

[A]

We are the shining city on the hill. How does that. Sorry. Go ahead.

[B]

So we should only get good people. Yeah. First of all.

[A]

First of all. But that's a lie. That it's the criminals and the rapists that are coming in through Mexico. That's. Fuck. That's just made up. So, Ty. So.

[B]

So do you want criminals and rapists here? Is that what you're saying?

[A]

They're not criminals and rapists.

[B]

Yes, they are. I just found a story about a guy from Mexico who raped someone. So clearly, yes, they are.

[A]

Logic.

[B]

It's just really easy to change and manipulate that stuff. Like just because someone goes, I fucking hate brown immigrants coming into this country. I really wish we only had educated white people in this country. Someone who thinks weirdly enough. Ryan.

[A]

Okay, sorry. Just pin in that. I want you to finish. But I will say I've seen a number of stories recently which shocked me, shocked me that they ice is apprehending. Like, for example, this one family from Denmark, as white as you can fucking get.

[B]

Were they liberal, though?

[A]

Good question.

[B]

Because then they need to get the fuck out of this country.

[A]

Maybe. Maybe that's why. But they've apprehended a Denmark family because the father. They were here legally, and yet there was one form that they didn't fill out in 2013.

[B]

Oh, I'll bet if they voted for Trump, they'd still be here.

[A]

I wonder. I mean, this is craziness, but anyways. Okay, go on.

[B]

Yeah, I know. What was I saying? The. Oh, okay. For instance, you said, like the Statue of Liberty, what that means. I think in the heads of the, you know, bigots and racists who only want certain people coming to this country. I think in their heads, they're not at all abandoning the ideals of the Statue of Liberty. In fact, they get it in their heads. They actually know what the Statue of Liberty means and what it represents. And idiots like you and me don't. We are actively trying to hurt this country by bringing, by encouraging the worst of the worst to come here and not bothering to police our borders and only get the best of the best to come to this wonderful shining hill city on a hill that we've created. And we need to stamp out all those people on the left who are letting all these awful people in. That's what the Statue of Liberty means, that we should keep this country great.

[A]

How does the Statue of Liberty mean that, though? I don't.

[B]

Because we want immigrants. We want the best of the best to come here, and we want to protect that. We don't want to make the country worse by doing.

[A]

That's not even what. Give me your time. Nowhere in that Statue of Liberty thing does it say that, like.

[B]

This is.

[A]

Where we need to pause and.

[B]

No, no, no, but it's still. It's a symbol, right? It's just, what does the symbol mean? I don't think there's many people who could recite to you exactly what's on the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty. I don't think I can go much beyond bring me your tired and your poor. But what does it symbolize? And you brought it up as the Statue of Liberty should be a symbol of essentially a progressive ideal. And I think you can get pretty easily twisted to make it mean whatever you want. I think symbols are good at that. Just like Bibles, statues and constitutions. I think you can twist any of that stuff.

[A]

I just.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know.

[A]

You haven't convinced me that. Just take the line. Bring me you're tired and you're poor could be twisted to mean only bring me your place.

[B]

No, I don't think the lion, tired and you're poor can be twisted like that. God, maybe I'm not gonna underestimate the ability of a person to do circular logic.

[A]

Yeah, no, but. Okay, but. So, but what's your ultimate point there?

[B]

Okay, here's my ultimate point. So you were saying that we should not forget the fundamental core principles that this country was based on. We need to keep those in mind as we move forward and try to fix what we've done wrong, especially recently with this country.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm playing devil's advocate by saying, is that actually hurting progress? Because I think, like, I don't think you can say what you just said to someone who disagrees with you politically and then go, like, you're absolutely right. Those founding core principles are so important. We should do all that stuff. I think they're gonna go, you don't know what the fuck. You just made my point for me. All those core principles, those are on my side, stupid, not yours. And they'll just use circular logic to make them all fit. You can take the Bible to say love everyone, or you can take the Bible to mean fuck gay people. And both. Both people who believe the Bible says that are 100% convinced the Bible says that much. Like, so.

[A]

But what's okay in this devil's advocate position then? Like, what is the solution?

[B]

Keep all the brown people out.

[A]

No. Oh, my God, stop. People are gonna think you're racist.

[B]

The solution is. Well, I hope not.

[A]

You're just gonna. You're just gonna have to keep repeating, I'm married to a black woman. This is my black friend, Okay?

[B]

I have a black friend. You wanna know the quickest way to know when someone is super, super not progressive in terms of their thought? They keep saying that shit. I guess what I'm saying is, like, I'm not really arguing for, like, let's abandon everything that made this country great in the first place, but I think the other side would view it as, like, no, no, no. This last election did it. We're finally back to the maybe that's good.

[A]

Maybe that's good, because then there'd be something we can quote, unquote, agree on the core principles, and then, you know, and then we would actually have something to start from and say, okay, I.

[B]

Don'T think you're gonna get past the racism. Yeah, they're not gonna come around on that.

[A]

But honestly, like, what is the solution then? I don't see any other solution than starting with something that, like, this country was founded on.

[B]

Well, the solution's probably education, because more informed.

[A]

The solution is also education. For sure. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

Because. Okay, okay, how did we get to where we're at? Uneducated people being misled.

[A]

Yeah. But I guess what I'm trying to say is, like, before all of this like, okay, okay. Like when you start a company or when you start a movement or when you start anything, you need to have a vision of, like, you start a career. You need a vision of, like, where you're going. I think that the first thing we need to do is like. And maybe it's just on the left, right? Cause like you said, the right, right now is off the deep end, is going to pervert everything and anything. Right. And already has. But so maybe it's just like those of us on the left, like those of us on the left need to come together on a vision first and foremost before we can start working together on any progress.

[B]

I do love the idea. Okay, you're.

[A]

Because if we have half the Democratic coalition saying that, like, you know, America sucks, then, like, how the fuck are we ever gonna get anywhere?

[B]

I love everything you're saying right now. I love the idea. This has been. This came around. I first heard of this idea back in the George W. Bush days, but this idea that. How did. Why did the left cede patriotism to the right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Why did the left cede loving this country to the right? Yes. Bring back patriotism in a not racist dude. I hear so oft. Like.

[A]

And there's a real difference between patriotism and nationalism. A huge difference.

[B]

Talk about that for a second.

[A]

Even etymology. I don't disagree with you etymologically. Is that the word?

[B]

Yeah. Is it ET or entire? One is bugs. One is words. I don't remember.

[A]

Anyways, yeah. Like, nationalism means you only care about, like, you believe that you are better than everybody else. And you.

[B]

It's exclusionary.

[A]

It's exclusionary. Patriotism is having pride and wanting to make this thing better and having exclusionary.

[B]

Making you feel patriotic. I love that way to go to war for you.

[A]

Right now I'm proud to be an American.

[B]

Okay, now, like a Kenyan school teacher. No, don't you dare sing it like that. No, I will not do that. Don't you dare sing it like that. Patriotism is wanting to make the country you live in better. And nationalism is.

[A]

And feeling comradery with those in it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And nationalism is feeling exclusionary. And we're better than everybody else.

[B]

Sucks. We're the best. And if you don't fit what my view of this thing is, you're not welcome.

[A]

You're not welcome. And let's kill and let's destroy to make sure that we remain the best.

[B]

So did the left let. Okay, so how do we take patriotism back?

[A]

How do we take, you know what I think we need to take back patriotism, religion.

[B]

And.

[A]

Well, those are two big things. Patriotism and religion.

[B]

The left needs to take religion back.

[A]

I think so for sure.

[B]

How do they do that?

[A]

I mean, I don't know, but I'll be honest.

[B]

Patriotism, I could see religion. You want to take evangelicals from the right, bro. If the left got evangelicals, actually Trump kind of. Okay, let's talk about this for a second.

[A]

But like the Pope, like, Catholics aren't voting Trump.

[B]

Not. Not as. Not as en masse as you'd think religious group would. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing the degree to which Trump hasn't lost the evangelical right. For someone who's as openly just flippant about so many religious ideals, you kind of wonder, like. And he still didn't lose him that much.

[A]

Yeah, that sucks.

[B]

Racism.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just always blame.

[A]

No, it. I mean, I think that's a huge, huge, huge, huge part of it.

[B]

I don't love that he's an awful person, but I do love that him and I share our hatred of brown people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Gonna vote for the guy now.

[A]

But also because of their, like, master messaging around making them fear immigrants and making them fear brown people and making.

[B]

Them think that master messaging.

[A]

Those people are the things that are making their life and not billionaires or.

[B]

Whatever else, you know, I mean, it's a tactic as old as time. Like medieval kings were using.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Divide and conquer.

[B]

100%.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it is all in the messaging. And how does. Okay, how. Like, how. Okay, I think. Okay, how does the left get back patriotism? How do you. So you're proud to be an American? You, I think. Are you pro military if you're on the left?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, you're pro.

[B]

Love that. You're pro vets.

[A]

Pro vets. God, yeah.

[B]

Are you pro increasing the defense budget?

[A]

No, I mean, I think the defense. I think the defense budget is wildly out of control.

[B]

Yeah, me too.

[A]

You gotta have, like, reasonable people looking at it.

[B]

Okay, so now you're talking about cutting the defense budget, you fucking communist.

[A]

Right now the defense budget is informed by the huge defense lobby and the donors. Right? Like, it's not in proportion to what it would mean?

[B]

Well, it's a jobs program, isn't it? Isn't it just like, it's a guy from Montana being like, if we build F16s here, then my constituents will be happy?

[A]

I think it's that.

[B]

And it's easy to sell that.

[A]

Cause I think it's that. Plus it's like, you Know, all the huge corporations like the Lockheed and the Raytheons, just, you know, lobbying huge amounts of money.

[B]

Dwight, that's what Eisenhower said on his way out, the. What's it called? Military industrial complex. I think he coined that term. On his way out of office, he was like, yeah, this could get bad, y'. All. You better keep an eye on that. And we were like, thanks, Ike. We didn't.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then it just went and took over our country.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Oops. Our bad.

[A]

But I mean, I think having a strong military is important, but just not one where we're wasting billions of dollars a year or hundreds of billions of dollars a year, you know?

[B]

You know, when. Here's another kind of thing about. This is an interesting thing about what it means to be an American. And the south park guys made a whole movie about this. But the idea that we are the world's police. Yeah. And that. Here's something that I don't want to say I agree with the ride on, but it is a bit of a common beef I have with the rest of the country. Okay, okay. A lot of other countries don't have to spend nearly as much on their military because we spend so much, because we do so much policing. A very, very quick. What is it? Point against. What I just said is calling into question our ethics with which we use our military, which is 100% valid. We do not use our military ethically in every situation. And there are many examples where we have used our military for very unethical purposes. But that being said, just from a fucking budgetary standpoint, like, there are many countries on earth who, when they're putting their defense budget together, go. We don't have to do this defense thing because America is covering that. And if we weren't covering it, those countries would. And I've heard Trump make that point before.

[A]

Yeah. But the point is that. That.

[B]

Is.

[A]

That we do that because it also serves our self interest. We do that because it keeps us as the leader of the world. We do that because.

[B]

But I would also love if we didn't spend so much on defense. I would love if we cut that. But it does. It's not just a. Because this is an interconnected world that comes with consequences.

[A]

Like, for example, like Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal because we said we would protect it.

[B]

Right. Perfect example.

[A]

Perfect example. And now, of course, all of that has gone haywire and we're doing the complete opposite of what we have promised all of our allies.

[B]

Great. Great.

[A]

Yeah, but that's. It's it's so. Yeah, so it's like, now, I think, at this point. I mean, I agree with you. Like, at this point in our path toward fascism, like, I don't. Like, I don't think America's ever gonna come back as the leader of the free world. Like, oh, if our analysis. And, like, where we're gonna be in four years, like, I don't see any path to where we're suddenly gonna be the leader of the free world again. Like, that's not. I don't know that there will be a free world. That's the other thing. Right. Cause, like, will China and Russia, you know, be the leaders now of the world? Like, we're so used to living in a post World War II environment. I can't even get my head around post Cold War.

[B]

Really. It was bipolar. Post Cold War ii. Post Cold War, it was just us.

[A]

Yeah, kind of. So. But, like, I can't get my head around what it would mean to live in a world where the whole world order was upended. Right. And, like, living in a police state just becomes the normal.

[B]

Well, okay, what is that? Okay, let's map out that future, though. What does that future look like? So let's go to a future where America's soft power has eroded.

[A]

And let's say the dollar is not the strongest currency around the world.

[B]

Is that part of soft power? Hard. Hard power is military and just guns. I think soft power is like culture. And is economics part of soft power? I can't remember. But that's really the thing, because we still have, by far the biggest military, and I don't think that's going away anytime soon. So from that perspective, like, bring it, China, we got way more guns than you. And taking nukes out of the equation, in which we all die, like, we still. Like, that's still there. But what we have lost already and what it looks like we're probably gonna still continue to lose is that soft power that, like, English is the business of language, the dollar is the currency of business. And the way the world works is kind of through that American funnel. That's that American exceptionalism thing.

[A]

If that goes away, which it will, but. Okay, sorry, go ahead.

[B]

Yeah. God, you keep bumming me out.

[A]

Like, I don't see a future where we get that back. Like, we are the laughingstock of the world right now, and we are aligned with Russia. Like, what the fuck, right?

[B]

Like, what if you don't think the next. Oh, man.

[A]

Is there an adult. I know. Is there an idyllic scenario okay, here's, here's my best.

[B]

I think there's an idyllic scenario.

[A]

Okay, let's, let's, let's go. Imagine, okay, so it's whatever fall 2026, and there's midterms, midterm elections. And somehow we still have an election. We still have elections.

[B]

You're still bumming me out even in your ideal scenario.

[A]

No, no, this is a good thing. We still have elections. Right. They're not interfered with. The results are counted accurately and say the Democrats take over the House and the Senate and then we impeach Trump.

[B]

And did this exact thing happen up until the impeach thing? Actually, no. Didn't all this happen in 2018?

[A]

First term, 2018, we took over the House and did we took over the Senate too?

[B]

There was a blue wave.

[A]

We might not have taken over the Senate and I think that's what stopped the impeachments from going through.

[B]

You're 100% right.

[A]

Or we took over the Senate, but we didn't have that 2/3 majority which we need to pass an impeachment through the Senate.

[B]

I don't think we even got the Senate. This is something we should know.

[A]

That we should know.

[B]

This is something we should look up. I don't think we got the Senate, but yeah, even if we did, we didn't. Obviously we didn't get enough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so it was the Mansion thing. Manchin was the mansion in cinema.

[A]

He was the mansion in cinema.

[B]

What are they, the swing or whatever.

[A]

But yeah, anyways, I think we may have had the Senate anyways. I don't remember.

[B]

2026, blue wave. We get the House.

[A]

We get the House and the Senate, we end up getting enough of the Senate that we can impeach Trump and get him to leave office. But then what?

[B]

J.D.

[A]

Vance becomes president, which is very like doomsday scenario in my mind, but I.

[B]

Disagree with you on that. I think J.D. vance could be. But also president is one of the best things that could happen to the left.

[A]

But then say Trump's okay. If Trump gets impeached and removed from office, there's no way he's leaving. There's no way he's leaving. Right. So he's gonna tell the military to whatever. Do whatever.

[B]

He's gonna try to January 6th again.

[A]

He's gonna try to January 6th. His own removal 100%. But then what happens? The military is loyal to the Constitution. And supposedly before Trump won this past year, like there had been conversations.

[B]

You're talking about trying to avoid a coup this is insane.

[A]

It's not even insane.

[B]

No, it's insane that this is reality. Nothing you're saying is out of poh. My God. Yeah, sorry, keep going.

[A]

There had been. I have heard that there have been, like, conversations high up in the Defense Department before Trump won in Nov. 24 about what happens if. Right. Like, what happens if Trump tries to.

[B]

What, that man gets his finger on the butt?

[A]

Yeah. What happens if Trump tells the military to do something that's unconstitutional? And a lot of conversations within high levels of the Defense Department to remind everybody that, like, the Defense Department, the military is loyal to the Constitution and not to the President.

[B]

Didn't a bunch of stories come out from the first. Trump's first term about that kind of stuff happening all the time where he would give an order that someone between him, like, down the chain of command would just ignore because they knew that it was insanely unconstitutional?

[A]

Really? I don't know about that.

[B]

I feel like there was a bunch of stuff that came out that specifically with military stuff where he would just, hey, we should do this.

[A]

I guess what's so scary to me now, though, is, like, yeah, he had at least, like, career public servants, like, and, you know, strong military leaders who at least understood, like, their job.

[B]

Okay, wait, wait. We're getting off track because you're trying so hard to pick this idyllic scenario, and it keeps bumming me out.

[A]

It keeps going in the wrong direction.

[B]

Okay, so.

[A]

So what happens in this ideal scenario?

[B]

The military doesn't fuck us over.

[A]

God.

[B]

I guess.

[A]

Will the military not? I can't even see that happening. Oh, no, no. Oh, my God.

[B]

Okay, can I pause your idyllic scenario?

[A]

Yeah, edit my idyllic scenario.

[B]

Okay. Here's how. I'm gonna have to edit it. Yeah.

[A]

What else could happen? That's good.

[B]

Here's the. Okay, I'm gonna. This is gonna be depressing, but I think this is the only way the idyllic scenario ever happens.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I'll bet you could guess what I'm gonna say.

[A]

No, I actually can't. I don't know where you're gonna go.

[B]

I'll bet I can get you to guess it. There's only one way.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But there's only one way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Here's. Let me. Let me be a little optimistic for a minute.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I think I. I don't know if I'm alone in this on the left, but sometimes it feels like it. If whatever cosmic event occurs, that for whatever reason, Trump is no Longer in charge. I think it all falls apart. I think the entire MAGA thing, I think all of it goes away.

[A]

This is where you're so much more optimistic than me. I thought you were the cynical one.

[B]

No, I know. And I'm bringing this up for a reason, because I do. This is very different from my normal. And again, from viewpoints that a lot of people on the left that I agree with on a lot of stuff differ with, I think this begins. I think the left grossly underestimates the insane charisma Trump has because it doesn't work on them. Like, if this were a game of dd, his charisma role is the number infinity. And especially compared to the black hole of charisma that is his current vice president, you can't. It doesn't get any, it doesn't get any further from truth for that. It doesn't get any further apart from that. That dude, that coalition does not get behind them. Trump is one of one. There is no, I don't know if there's a politician in history who can do what he did, who can get away with what he's got. He's broken every rule. No politician has ever survived what he's survived. No politician has survived what Trump did in 2015, much less what he's done up through 2025. He is so far out ahead of everyone else in terms of what he can do. No one's been able to mimic it. They've all been trying. They've been trying it for a decade now. Every politician on the right since that fucking primary where he was on with a book tour that ended with a presidential bid. Ever since then, all those other politicians on the right were looking at him going, I can do that. I see what he's doing. I can do that better than him. And they've all failed, every single one of them. None of them have been able to do it. They all lost. None of them can bring together that unholy coalition that he did, those disgusting people and their viewpoints. He can bring them together and he can make them lock step, do what he wants them to do. And no other politician on earth has ever been able to do that. And when he goes, that coalition falls apart. They infight, they disagree, they don't vote in lockstep and rationality survives and beats them back. And we win. And it goes back to the way it was where it's imperfect and we disagree and sometimes we win and sometimes we lose.

[A]

That makes me so happy.

[B]

But no one else can bring together that basket of deplorables, as Hillary called them.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

Shout out Hillary. Sorry, girl.

[A]

I think that I would have to agree with you that that is the best case scenario. That is the only best case scenario that I can think of right now, actually. Cause mine doesn't work. He's not gonna leave. He's not gonna be. He's not gonna go be removed from office.

[B]

I mean, listen, I don't think what I said is gonna happen because I think he's gonna live forever.

[A]

No, he's not.

[B]

I think the power of hatred will keep him alive until the heat death of the universe.

[A]

No, he's not. But I.

[B]

That.

[A]

I think that's where we end this episode because you just gave me a lot of hope. Yay. That is that. I think that's like the best case scenario. And that's maybe what we all have to just keep holding on for.

[B]

Let me. Before we end it, let me give just a little bit of cynicism because I'm me. And it actually goes back to what you were saying earlier, what the future of this country could look like. Because even in my ideal scenario, unfortunately, a lot of damage has been done and our soft power has been eroded. And what really, really sucks is we've lost the trust of so many other countries that we somehow kept even through the 2016-2020 run.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And our vote this last fall, we lost a ton of that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it sucks how narrowly we lost that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Gosh darn it.

[A]

So narrowly.

[B]

But that I don't think we get all that toothpaste back in the bottle. I think we carry on to some degree, but it's not going to be the way it was. Like, not everything. We're not going to get what we want in negotiations with other countries. Trade is going to be immeasurably hurt. Manufacturing is going to be immeasurably hurt. That stuff isn't going to go away. Unfortunately. We're going to be paying for those sins for a while. But at least the hope for me is that it's not going to become Handmaid's Tale.

[A]

Can I just say one thing? Fuck Rogan.

[B]

I hope you enjoy your millions in Texas, you piece of shit.

[A]

Literally. Like, I know that that whole trope on the thing of, like, the left needs a Rogan of the left. Like, who's our Rogan of the left? That. Everybody's sick of that question. Everybody's sick of that question. Some people think it's, you know, we need to find that still. Some people Think that's a ridiculous concept.

[B]

Well, it's Ezra Klein. It's Ezra Klein. We all know it's Ezra Klein.

[A]

Stone, not Ezra Klein, in case you didn't get that joke.

[B]

Yo, how sad is that? R. Ro. Ezra Klein. No wonder we lost. I'm sorry, Ezra. I love you, but, like, you're no Rogan.

[A]

Ezra Klein. But also, like, like, if it weren't for that idiot Joe Rogan, like, he may not have won. You know? Like, who knows? It's obviously not for many, many, many, many factors.

[B]

I'm gonna totally go with you on that joke.

[A]

If Rogan doesn't exist because he's not a horrible guy, he's not somebody that's, like, actively trying to, like, whatever, do bad stuff. But, like, also, he didn't have enough intelligence to understand the impact of what that was gonna have. And, like, why the fuck would he endorse that idiot, you know? Like, there's just some people who. I'm like, what is wrong with your level of intelligence and your lack of thinking?

[B]

I think I can explain Rogan to you in a way that's gonna make a lot of sense to you.

[A]

What?

[B]

White man confidence.

[A]

Say more.

[B]

Rogan's a white dude. He doesn't realize the severity of it, much.

[A]

Like, so many of these issues have nothing to do with being a white dude.

[B]

No, no, no. Not like, the impact of these issues.

[A]

Meaning you will still be impacted by climate change. You will still be impacted by. Right. Like, economic ravage. What's the word?

[B]

Economic.

[A]

Savage.

[B]

What's the word? Honestly, everything you're saying totally makes sense. Yes. All of that. Yeah.

[A]

But specifically, you'll still be affected by the police state. You'll still be affected by not having due process. You'll still be affected by.

[B]

Not. Don't undress. As a white man. Don't. Let me tell you something. Don't underestimate. Listen, for everyone out there who's not a white man, and if you are a white man, you should hear this, too. Do not underestimate the white man's ability to be completely ignorant of everyone who isn't also a white man. Like that. You just. You don't have to care as much. Your shit is just so much more taken care of. There's so much less to be scared about. There's so much less to worry about, especially if you're an insanely lucky. Rogan is a lucky dude. He tried to make a career in a really difficult career field, and he did it. He made it as a comedian, actor. Which is super difficult to do. So the dude has just been hitting royal flushes for, like, 20 years straight. He started a stupid little podcast where he smoked weed with people and it turned into him interviewing presidents. Like, how could he not think that he. Like that? What he does is awesome because he's just been winning consecutively for a long, long time. Yeah. He doesn't need to think critically about this kind of stuff. He is blessed with the ability to be really ignorant. And there's a lot of people like him out there. That's how you explain someone like Rogan. Like, that's the only way I can. Because how could you not see that, bro? That's how. Cause he's just. He doesn't need to. He doesn't have to care. He can say. He can say things like, why can't I have Trump on. I'm just. He's just. He, he, he. Why can't we just let him talk and let people figure out if they believe him or not? What's wrong? What's wrong with just letting people speak? Are you against free speech, bro? Go eat some elk meat. Like, that's, that's. It's. From someone like his perspective. He doesn't need to think about the danger and how much, how much it can hurt when the things that come out of Trump's mouth hit many ears.

[A]

Like, he doesn't have to think about.

[B]

It all because it doesn't hurt him, but it hurts you.

[A]

But that's true.

[B]

And a lot of people like you.

[A]

But that's true. Like, climate change will hurt him. Gun violence will hurt him.

[B]

He doesn't believe that he has a gun. He loves guns. Climate change is. Climate change is so easy to just throw out. If you're on the right, you want to know how easy it is? 20 years ago, there were scientists, or at least it was being paraded around on the right. The oceans are going to swallow us up. We got. We're all going to be dead. In fact, there were literally. There were studies. There were things that came out like, you can go find them. That said, like, they gave us a timeline. We have up until this point. And then the world is going to be fucked. And that time passed and the world wasn't fucked up. That's all someone on the right needs.

[A]

I don't know if that's true.

[B]

It has happened. Like, there have been literally climatologists who put out papers that ended up being wrong. They just went with the knowledge they had. They didn't get it right because climate's really fucking hard to predict. But all people on the right, all the people who didn't want to have to hear about it, who wanted to keep things going the way they've always. All they had to know is that they got it wrong once. Fuck them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't believe that shit. They're just. It's just them. That's the left's propaganda for just trying to get us to vote for fucking solar power. It's so easy for them to do that.

[A]

It's so easy.

[B]

Yeah. That's even without the white man thing. Yeah. Oh, my God. Throw that on top. Forget it.

[A]

So who is our Joe Rogan on the left?

[B]

It says recline, unfortunately. I'm sorry. It is, right?

[A]

It's not. It can't be.

[B]

Who is it?

[A]

Us. No. Just kidding. Yes.

[B]

It's gonna be us. Why not, though? It could be us. We gotta smoke weed with a billionaire. If you and me smoke weed with a billionaire, we can definitely become the Rogan of the love.

[A]

I could definitely make that happen.

[B]

You heard it here first, people. At some point, if you're ever listening to an episode of this and we go on today's episode, we've got.

[A]

Give me a billionaire Mark Cuban.

[B]

Yo, that would be sick. Today we've got Mark Cuban in here. And then you hear, like, a lighter. And then you hear, like. And then you hear Mark go, what's up, everybody? At that moment, we'll have become the Rogan of the left.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

And it's gonna happen. We're gonna make it happen.

[A]

Here we go.

[B]

That's another thing to be optimistic about.

[A]

We love y'. All. We're in this together.

[B]

We're in this together. We're going to do this.