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Dressed: The History of Fashion
Advanced Style, Part II: Meet the Models and Muses (Dressed Classic)
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- [00:00]
Cassidy Zachary
It's time to turn your daydream into your dream job. Wix gives you the power to turn your passion into a moneymaker with a website that fits your unique vision and drives you towards your goals. Let your ideas flow with AI tools that guide you but give you full control and flexibility. Manage your business from one dashboard and keep it growing with built in marketing features. Get everything you need to turn your part time passion into a full time business. Go to wix.com Please enjoy this episode from the Dressed Archive of over 500 plus shows. Dressed will be back with all new content in March of 2025. Until then, consider heading to DressedHistory.com to explore our latest online fashion history classes and in person tours of Paris and New York City. More from Dressed coming your way soon. With over 7 billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day we all get dressed welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast where we explore the who, what.
- [01:07]
April Callahan
When of why we wear.
- [01:09]
Cassidy Zachary
We are fashion historians and your hosts, April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary. Last week we were joined by Ari Seth Cohen, the visionary and lovely photographer behind Advanced Style. What started out as a street style blog capturing the styles of the quote unquote senior set has since blossomed into an international movement that celebrates the sartorial expressions of individuals over 60 years of age. Ari's work has not only been instrumental in changing the fashion and beauty industry's relationships with older women and models, the subjects captured by his lens have inspired individuals around the world to reassess their own relationships to themselves, the aging process and the clothed body as an act and an art of self expression and identity. And today we are so pleased to.
- [01:57]
April Callahan
Be joining by some of these wonderful.
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Cassidy Zachary
People who have fueled both the Advanced Style and Advanced Love movements. And what better way to start this interview series than April? We are so excited with an interview with a man near and dear to both of our hearts. And that is one Hyland Booker. For those of our dress listeners who have been with us since day one of the podcast, then you might remember Hyland as our very first guest on our very first episode. Yes, so today is an extra special treat because not only is he joining us again, he's also accompanied by his beloved wife Charlotte. And you might remember from last week dress listeners that Ari's Advanced Style project evolved into the publication of his third book, Advanced Love. And Hyland and Charlotte were featured in this. So we are so thrilled to have them both with us here today. Hylan and Charlotte, welcome To dressed. Hello? Good morning, Charlotte, It's Cassidy.
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April Callahan
Hi. Hi. How are you doing?
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Cassidy Zachary
Good.
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April Callahan
Yeah, I'm here, actually.
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Cassidy Zachary
I can hear you. Hello, Hylan, it's Cassidy.
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April Callahan
Great. How are you, Cassidy?
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Cassidy Zachary
Oh, it's so nice to speak to you again after all this time.
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April Callahan
Yeah, I know. How was the success of the podcast?
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Cassidy Zachary
Oh, it's been going really well. We're now in our third season.
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April Callahan
Oh, you're in your third season? What period are you at?
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Cassidy Zachary
We've gone all over the place. We've done. I think we have over 200 episodes now.
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April Callahan
200 episodes? My God, I'll never catch up.
- [03:27]
Cassidy Zachary
We can send you some suggestions if you would like. If you tell us some topics, we can help direct you. But yeah, it's been really fabulous. And you remain our first guest on the show.
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April Callahan
Oh, no, it was a pleasure. It was a pleasure. I was looking at the notes I wrote about the questions that you guys have asked me just to see, but 200 things later, my goodness. So you've covered the entire fashion world now. You must be up to date.
- [03:52]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, we've done everything. Yeah. And that's why it was such a treat to see Charlotte and yourself in Ari's book. And April and I both agreed we had to talk to you both was a good excuse to catch up.
- [04:02]
April Callahan
Oh, that's great. No, we were very pleased to do it. Fashion did play a strong role in our life. That's actually how we met. It so happens that I was on my way to Los Angeles for the first time after a long recovery of an accident, and I got dressed up for the first time in almost three years because I was really ill. So I was wearing a load and green Calvin Klein pantsuit, a marvelous Missoni coat over my shoulders, and I was really feeling terrific. And it's so funny because we met, we talked, we. Everything was a fabulously romantic experience. But a few months later, maybe even a year or so later, when we were on a trip to Europe and a couple of women came on board in sweatsuits, and I said to him, if I had been dressed like that, would you have talked to me? He said, absolutely not. So fashion plays a role, doesn't it?
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Cassidy Zachary
Absolutely. And I love that you remember exactly what you were wearing, because I think clothing in so many ways holds memories for many of us.
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April Callahan
Oh, absolutely.
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Cassidy Zachary
And that was Valentine's Day, 1985, right?
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April Callahan
Yes, yes. Valentine's Day, 1985. So that's the day we celebrate our wedding as opposed to our actual wedding, which took place and September. And in 93, I think it was 94. 94. See? So Valentine's Day is our anniversary day.
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Cassidy Zachary
Right.
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April Callahan
Wow.
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Cassidy Zachary
And that 35 years together. What have you both learned about love and relationships? Can you impart any words of wisdom to people like myself? My husband and I have been married six years, been together 13, but nowhere near the 35.
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April Callahan
I have a very solid feeling about what makes a relationship work. And last. And I think it's very simple, if you're on each other's side, there's no end. Yeah. I think you. You have to know that what's petty in your life. And never. I. My secret is never keep a list. People say you didn't do that, and I'm doing this all the time, or whatever that thing is. Never do that. Never keep a list. If you keep a list, that means you're trying to measure how much you're putting into the relationship and the other person isn't or apparently isn't. And I think that whole list thing is absurd. You know what I mean? You might be doing more, but it doesn't mean you love her more if you get what I'm driving at. So that's. My great theory, is that this list keeping, this, what are you doing and what am I doing? Thing. You do the thing you have to do and do the supporting thing. If someone's tired, you work a little harder. If someone's not feeling well, you take up the slack, whatever that is in a partnership like this. And we try. The arguments we've had, we try never to go to sleep with that argument in place. That means that you must find a way to say I'm sorry at the end of the evening before you go to sleep. It's a secret that you have to hold onto. Unless, of course, you don't want to hold on to. And that's. That's another thing altogether. Of course.
- [07:10]
Cassidy Zachary
And, Charlotte, you're talking about being each other's champion, right? When you said, be on each other's side. Yeah.
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April Callahan
Yes. And trust. If you trust each other and you really care enough and are on your partner's side enough, then the arguments are very small and very rare. And they're not fights. They're just disagreements.
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Cassidy Zachary
Of course. We're a fashion podcast. I have to ask, and I've been asking everyone this. Do either of you have an earliest memory of clothing, of dress that holds resonance with you today?
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April Callahan
Yeah, I think so. Let me give you some thought. While I can only say that a great deal of my fascination with clothing Started I was. My mother and sister. I would be buying Christmas presents for. And they loved things. And of course, I would find out what it is they liked. In those days, kid gloves were very important and certain small things so that you could buy a present that you knew that they would love. And this went on for years. And so when they get dressed, they'd say, how do I look? So I had a real relationship with this female dressing up thing. So by the time I go to high school, I went to a special high school called Cass Tech, which is a. I think I told you this previously, anyway, in that there was a fashion portion of the commercial art course. And I took that and won a contest in fashion drawing and also fashion illustration. And I thought, oh, this is something really great. And I didn't have. It wasn't like I was interested in being a football player or a basketball player or other. I was always interested in art. And so that's where my leanings went. I went toward fashion. Out of high school, I became a window dresser for a pretty good expensive store in Detroit, and then also in the first mall that was built in Michigan. So it was a long journey of loving clothes and then dealing with clothes and then finally being able to make clothes. So it was great. And I've been sitting here thinking while Hylan was talking that when I was 12 years old or in that neighborhood, I was like. I dressed like everybody else, with bobby socks and saddle shoes and pleated skirts and big sweaters and all of that standing in line waiting to Frank Sinatra. So I was one of many. As I grew, as I got older, I started to develop tastes that were my own and were different in many instances from my friends and from other people. Because I had. First of all, I was obsessed with have Everything match, which I got over finally. But I found a store near where I lived in Manhattan, which was called Off Broadway. It was on 72nd Street. It was a little boutique. And they carried something that I fell in love with. They carried dress outfits for the evening, for dinner or for concert or whatever that were as close to pajamas as you can imagine. Soft, casual, sexy, tailored outfits in lovely fabric. And that's what I wore all the time. They were different colors, they were different shapes of pants and different tops. But that was my obsession for a very long time. In terms of every time I was going anywhere that mattered, I would be in one of those outfits for years. And then things change. When you get to be. You get. You start. You become pregnant, then you're starting in Those days it was maternity clothes, which were horribly ugly, but I wore them because there was no alternative at the time. And then as a mother raising children, you don't really think that much about what you're wearing. At least I didn't. But I've never been a reader of Vogue or W or any of the fashion magazines. I was always on the business side and reading Forbes and the Wall Street Journal. But Hyland tells me that I have a real sense of style and I have finally took a while, accepted that I think he's right, but I never really was aware of it. I do make choices and I do care how I look. And I've always been that way. In fact, when I was working for my daughter in law who was running a thing called Sheila Kelly's S Factor, which is a fitness program that empowers women, and I ended up running it because she needed help and I was between things. And that's here in California. Here in California. And I would arrive early in the morning dressed like I always dressed in New York when I went to work. And the teachers, the wonderful nubile marvel, young women in their tights would look at me and say, where are you going? And I'd say, what do you mean, where are you going? I am where I'm going. And they couldn't figure out why I was dressed the way I was. California has a different style of presentation, as you can imagine, right? Yeah, they do that. Fashion has been more present in my thinking and in my life and in my acting activities than I had any idea until Hyland began to compliment me and tell me. And when I saw his portfolio for the first time, I was stunned by how much, like, what I wear, his designs were. So we were designed to be together. It was hilarious.
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Cassidy Zachary
You've talked about a couple decades already, but is there a period of fashion that you liked in particular throughout history that you've experienced or ones that you never want to see again?
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April Callahan
I really love the short skirts, the mini skirts. That was in the 70s, 60s and 70s. Yes, I really did. I really enjoyed that. I have very good size. I enjoyed that too. I would say yes, I would say, obviously, because it was like the beginning of my career as well. But also it was a sort of new freedom that had never been exerted on the culture. And it was worldwide and it was exciting and some of us were avant garde in the process of it. And so I'd have to admit that the 60s and 70s were my favorite period. Although other periods were interesting. The Big shoulders of the. What is it? The late 70s, early 80s were pretty exciting too, but crazy when you look back on them. People look like they're in their parent clothes or something. But no, that was my favorite period. Plus I was doing that and the stuff still feels right to me. But today it's interesting that you think about this. I think fashion is a kind of huge cultural, emotional flavor that we're all flowing through. And I think that at the certain age and then when as time passes and you pass out of that huge flowing thing, you begin to say, why are they wearing that sort of thing? Or why are they hair? You begin to wonder about. Once you start wondering about why people are wearing things, then you're out of the fashion business in a kind of crazy way. I happen to be enjoying again because I have good size, I'm enjoying the tights and wearing wonderful tops on with them and shoes. I think that's a really chic look when it's done well.
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Cassidy Zachary
Oh, and it sounds like you do it excellently.
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April Callahan
I love dressing that way. I really do. Sometimes it could be going out for something special and sometimes it could be going to the movies, but it's still comfortable and good and it looks good and it's flattering. And truth being is that she still wears some of my. The clothes that I designed and I believe in a kind of simplicity. So things look more contemporary than you would think they would. And I was a pretty good tailor as well. So I. She still wears a lot of the jackets and things that I made during that period. The funny thing is that whenever I do and I go, I belong to a thing called the International Women's Forum and it's a very high end dressed group of women globally. And whenever I wear one of Highland's jackets, I'm always asked by a number of them, where did you get that? Where did you get that? That's gorgeous. That's gorgeous. And I say, where did you buy it? Where did you buy it? Actually, I didn't buy it. Here's the label and I show them. Highland Booker label. But his work is beautiful, absolutely beautiful. And it was always, it always fitted me as if I was born in it. But it's a long ways from 20 odd years ago. I made that collection now. Yeah, I'm still wearing it, loving it.
- [15:44]
Cassidy Zachary
My, how time flies. This has been such a treat to talk to both of you. Hylan, again, you are our very first guest on our very first episode of our podcast.
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April Callahan
Oh, I feel honored still.
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Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. 200 some odd episodes later. And it's such a pleasure to have you back and with your lovely wife, Charlotte.
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April Callahan
That's great, Cassidy. Lovely. Yeah. Pleasure to do that. And a pleasure to meet you.
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Cassidy Zachary
What better way to start this interview series, Cass, than with this beautiful story of love? Hyland and Charlotte, you are both certainly an inspiration to Cass and I'm sure to many of our listeners as well. Oh, yeah, and April, as such a treat to get to talk to Hyland after over two years and time really flies. Hyland, as our listeners remember, was the head of the London branch of the House of worth in the 1960s. And our interview in our very first episode on the father of haute couture, Charles Frederick Wirth, concludes with an interview with Hyland. So definitely check that out if you haven't already. And of course, grab your copy of Advanced Love for your bedside table. Now more than ever, we need a reminder of love in all of its myriad forms. Next up, we are joined by Alice Carey. Our listeners might remember we quoted some of her words of wisdom last week on part one of this series. Her words of wisdom included never leave home without lipstick, which I always subscribe.
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April Callahan
To, and also sex.
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Cassidy Zachary
Never give up on it in whatever shape or form. It keeps the roses in your cheeks.
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April Callahan
And the gleam in your eyes.
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Cassidy Zachary
I just love that. Alice is a model and author, and she's a regular contributor to the Huffington Post. She's written numerous books, including I'll Know It When I See It, A Daughter's Search for Home in Ireland and then also Manhattan to West Cork. Alice's Adventures. Alice joins us today to share more profound advice learned from a life of dressing and style. Alice, welcome to Dressed. Alice, welcome to Dressed. It's such a pleasure to talk to you today.
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April Callahan
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you today.
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Cassidy Zachary
And I'm hoping you can tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe what you do, where you're from. Just a little introduction.
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April Callahan
Yes. I think the most important thing about myself is that I'm Irish and I'm a New Yorker. And I don't actually think of myself as an American because I think that frames my personality in that my parents came here in the early 50s and we were immigrants. And it was just the two of them and me as a little girl. And we were not we really had no money and my parents had no education, but they were it was after the war. And I'm sure you've talked to people about this with the Eisenhower and times are going to be Good times are going to be great. And what has made me who I am today, I think, is what my mother did for a living. My mother, as in true immigrant fashion, got a job as a maid. And at that point, the rich in New York who they really wanted as maids were the Irish because of breeding and accent and all that bullshit you can imagine. You look at TV and old Irish movies and my mother got a job working for theater people. And of course it opened my eyes to another world. It was in a beautiful brownstone right off Park Avenue. And she trundled in every day with me. And I was co raised in a way in that house. Granted, I had to stay in the kitchen because I don't want a little kid running around this gorgeous living room. But I stayed with her for quite a long time and I grew older and then she would have all sorts of people at parties. Like I remember once seeing Marilyn Monroe there.
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Cassidy Zachary
Oh, wow.
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April Callahan
And it was one of those extraordinary moments. Yes. Did I see it? Did I talk to her? You have to behave well. And there she is over in the corner in a gorgeous evening gown. And it was that environment that I think made me realize you can be anything you want to be if you want to be. I picked up fashion, I picked up style, I picked up manners, I picked up the way I speak. Because that little girl who would go back and forth to Ireland with the mother, we'd save money and go back, come back, had a really thick brogue. And that can run funny in New York even to this day, because people have a very stereotyped idea of the Irish as they do of blacks and as they do of Jews. They think we're all in a movie that they've seen and accent means oh, you're one of them. And of course I became me and that's that for a while. I was an actress, worked a lot of musicals and about 20 odd years ago I began to write. And actually I am a writer, even though I who have fashion ads and things like that. Fashion ads are easy. Looking good is easy. Writing's hard. So that's a little bit about me.
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Cassidy Zachary
I would love if you would describe your personal style and maybe how you came to it, how you developed it. Because there's these very clear distinctions between what is fashion, what is on trend, what is on the Runway, et cetera. And then there's this very different realm which is style, which people like yourself have honed for years and years and people like myself envy you for. Could you talk a little bit about how you came to it. It sounds like you've spent a lot of time thinking about it.
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April Callahan
Athena. It became rather easy. I went to Catholic school, and there were uniforms. And we're not talking uniforms at Catholic school. Back in the old days, they were pretty awful. They're better today if you see little girls in the street. But I liked and still love the idea of a uniform. And I think when I see any of the military or any of the police and any the Irish police, the English police, and the various police in various states in America, everyone looks so snappy. And it's because of kind of a regimented look. So that's number one. Number two is this. It's a good 30 years ago or so. I heard the wonderful designer Jeffrey Dean being interviewed. And I was a huge fan of his. And I have a lot. I said, I have a lot of three of his dresses here. And he said, and the question was, why do you always look the same, Mr. Bean? Something like that. And I realized, if any of you, your listeners think back, and what did Jeffrey Bean look like? He was not an attractive man. He did not look like Bill Blass, who was dead handsome. Jeffrey Dean looked like a priest. And he always wore black jackets and kind of a black shirt with no collar and black backs, which you saw. But he looked like a million bucks. And he began to talk about it, and he said, but I believe in uniforms. And I thought, jesus, so do I. And at that point I realized, especially in winter, I dress in a uniform outside. And I'll tell you what my uniform is. My uniform is this. I love men's clothes. I love men's clothes. A man's tweed jacket is worth a million bucks for anyone to buy. And you can buy it again in thrift shops, and you keep trying them on till you get one where you do look like a million bucks, preferably British made. The Americans generally not made in America. It just don't look as good. But I believe in all winter, I leave the house here and I wear Doc Martens shoes. I believe in Doc Martens big time. I have two pairs here, two pairs in Ireland, in our Irish house. And what I do to add to that is brooches, fabulous brooches. I have so many. I don't want people to give me a brooch anymore, really. I have too many. But a beautiful pin or a brooch on a jacket that says, yeah, I know, you see, I'm wearing men's clothes, but look at the brooch, that tells you something else. And so I truly Believe. Find your uniform. Just do. Don't go trendy. Trendy is ridiculous. Just be daring. I say to women, just be daring. And don't dress like what you think you see in the press. Just. You'll never look good if you do that. Find your own inner fashion. Oh, that's a good reason to find your own inner fashion model. Yeah.
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Cassidy Zachary
And I love. If you're gonna do something wonderful. That's a wonderful sentiment as well. April. One thing I can say about Alice is she knows exactly what works for her and her body type. And she believes that every woman can also hone this skill. And it just takes a little time and effort. I'm definitely still working on that myself. Yeah, same. Although I think I'm gonna continue to stick with the maxi dresses and sneakers. Cause that definitely works for me. And also, like, how form her style journey to come face to face with Marilyn Monroe at such a young age. The apex, the epitome of oak glamour right there. Yeah. And I have to say, Alice and I, like so many of the guests featured on today's episode, we actually talked for well over 30 minutes. So unfortunately, I had to cut a lot of the conversation because of time. But honestly, each and every guest here today could have their very own podcast episode. So they have so many fascinating stories to share and advice to give, including our next guest, Valerie von Sobel. And you might want to check out her Instagram page while you listen to this interview. It's alarievaughn with an O and then underscore Sobel. S, O, B, E, L. Talk about really unique, singular style. Cass, we are so pleased to welcome Valerie, who graces the COVID of Ari's second book, Advanced Style Older and Wiser. Valerie, welcome. Valerie, welcome to the show. It's such a pleasure to talk to you today.
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April Callahan
Thank you. It's mutual. In these very quiet days, it's the perfect time to talk about things that are not politics and the weather.
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Cassidy Zachary
Yes, absolutely. I've been having so much fun talking to everyone about their fashion sense, their style, and really how they came to their individuality and their individual relationship. And you yourself, you just have the most incredible personal style. You're, of course, the COVID girl of Ari's second book, Advanced Style Older and Wiser. And you're wearing just the most fabulous outfit. Our listeners, of course, are going to look you up immediately and be as amazed as I am with your incredible style. But in Ari's book, you write that you started your creative life at the age of 8, and I was hoping you could tell us a little bit more about your first experiences with clothing or when you first understood the art and value of dressing your body. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that with us?
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April Callahan
The only way I can explain my very early interest that it was truly a knee jerk reaction to beauty. Because later on I was very privileged to express it both in architecture and interior design as well as clothing. So came the Hungarian revolution and we left. And I must have been very sentimental because all I carried was family photographs and a copy of Vogue. I was riveted to what freedom in fashion looked like in a country that is under communist occupation and had, strangely enough, one color of lipstick. And every spring one pair of shoes would come out and you would stand in line. And if they ran out before you were in line, then you had no new shoes. So to be freed up of that was not immediate, of course, because first we were Hungarian refugees and had no place really to live. Spend nearly a year in a refugee camp. And all of that was really jolly good because it meant we were in freedom. And it was only a question of time that one finds whatever there is to find personally for one. And so I had an unfortunate early success. And I say unfortunate because I really wasn't prepared for it. I was at 17, under contract to 20th Century Fox and I made a major motion picture with Jimmy Stewart, which probably most of your listener won't know who he is, but he was a very big star. And I was as prepared for it as my dog. I've never had any training as an actress. I came from another planet, really, because communist Hungary with closed borders and closed mouths and the press that was so humiliatingly sycophants of the communist era. There was never a car accident, there was never an airplane, there was never an illness. It was what I grew up with. And a child will sense that there is something wrong with that picture. So coming out and finding my style early is certainly not the case. There was a very famous dressmaker, her name was Claire Rothschild. And I really don't know if she was a Rothschild or not, but we had one fashion street in Budapest. And I watched my mother being fitted for a beautiful black dress and. And soon after that we left the country and she bought that beautiful black dress with her. And she went through all the seasons. In the spring she would have a cognac colored little collar on it with a bunch of violets. In the spring it would be white against the black. White pique or tartan. I saw how one good dress can really take you to the opera and can take you anywhere, including a PTA meeting. Depends if you recognize what to do with it. So I also had one good dress for many years to come while I always watched. And I think whatever I brought to my aesthetics later on, that was quite celebrated as an interior designer. I did a lot of palaces of hundred thousand square feet in the Emirates. What I brought to my sensibility was discernment. To know good from bad, to know mediocre from sensational. And there are some people who are not born to see that.
- [30:37]
Cassidy Zachary
And I was going to say, because you yourself are an artist. And that was definitely one of my questions for you, is if you consider what you do and the way that you combine the clothing pieces and all the accessories on your body, to me, is such an art form. And, yeah, not all of us possess that art form. For sure.
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April Callahan
It is definitely an art form because you have to not just understand pretty, you have to be able to analyze proportion and texture and color and what really makes an outfit shine that is beyond a designer. A little turquoise earring with a purple dress, and suddenly both colors come alive.
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Cassidy Zachary
Oh, absolutely. And that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what the different color combinations you put on your body, the different clothing from different cultures, different eras throughout history. It all melds into this incredible. Like I said, I consider you a walking piece of art, of fashion, of style. What you do is just incredible. And I'd love to hear a little bit more about when you started using dress to build those art forms. That art form on your body, was that something that you've developed over many years or.
- [31:49]
April Callahan
Definitely over many years. Because as a Hungarian refugee who has absolutely no money, when I married my husband, who did have some. At first, you want to fit in, and so your social life is about your latest Chanel. I wouldn't go near a Chanel. I would almost put up my fingers like a cross. Get away from me, demon. It is so expected to wear recognizable clothes today. I take pride in going to Target and combine it with a couture skirt. It's about confidence. It's about understanding. It's about not following a fashion nor making a new fashion deliberately. Because at first, you have to understand your own figure. If it's not becoming, don't go near it. Every day a new designer is born, a new understanding. My favorite is probably, hands down, Christian Lacroix. The way he used colors is how God designed butterflies and his silhouettes. And his understanding of combining fabric was just superb. I don't know why I talked about that right now, but the sensibility of different designers are just astounding.
- [33:10]
Cassidy Zachary
Oh, absolutely. And you know what? I take daily inspiration from your Instagram finding inspiration and people like yourself who have that jas de vivre and then who really are the living embodiment.
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April Callahan
It takes that a depressed person cannot do this. And I have had many years of really deep mourning, and it was reflected in what I threw on. It was probably something black or gray. And so it is indeed emblematic of the certain periods of your life or the certain periods of the world.
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Cassidy Zachary
Something you do wear incredibly well is hats. I have to say.
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April Callahan
Yes. I love hats.
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Cassidy Zachary
You, I would say, are the queen of hats. You have the most beautiful collection. Can you tell us about that before you go?
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April Callahan
Yes. When I could no longer house my hat, they are on my upholstered wall like dead butterflies. So I just. They are all over my apartment, and they really do look like a museum collection. But that started only about 20 years ago when I was too lazy to do hair.
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Cassidy Zachary
Wow.
- [34:18]
April Callahan
So I just simply don't do hair. I wear a ponytail, a small chignon in the black, the back, that it doesn't interfere with my hat. And you will see every photograph of me, no hair, just plop it on, whether it's a summer straw, a bowler, or some of those really elaborate things that you see. Even like McConnell, who was American aristocracy, a millinery.
- [34:44]
Cassidy Zachary
Oh, yeah. And you have the most beautiful collection. And it's such an inspiration, again, because hats are not something people really wearing every day anymore. I'm a huge advocate of hats, and I think they need to come back. And you're a beautiful example as to.
- [34:59]
April Callahan
Why not everybody is comfortable with them. It has to be comfortable for you with what you are wearing. And sometimes I wear something just so it goes with my hair.
- [35:11]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. You really have quite the collection, and it's absolutely wonderful. Valerie, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today.
- [35:19]
April Callahan
Oh, it was wonderful. If you weren't in New Mexico and it wasn't the COVID I would invite you to tea and introduce you to my hats.
- [35:29]
Cassidy Zachary
I would love that. Someday maybe.
- [35:32]
April Callahan
Yes, absolutely. Everything passes, Cassidy. Everything.
- [35:36]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah.
- [35:37]
April Callahan
That includes the plague. That includes good and bad economy, depressing time and presidents.
- [35:45]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah.
- [35:46]
April Callahan
But I think that it has to do, as you say, with a personal joie de vivre. Something that is unshakable. Like I said, I came from a very dark place. I probably mourned my husband, my mother, and my son who died in the same year my son was 17. So once you find the light, you better celebrate it in every way you can.
- [36:09]
Cassidy Zachary
Oh, that's so beautiful. Thank you for that.
- [36:11]
April Callahan
Thank you for calling and it was great fun.
- [36:15]
Cassidy Zachary
Valerie, thank you so much for joining us. Valerie April is the embodiment of the art of dress. Like so many of our listeners, I just love how she referred to Delacroix's designs as the way he used colors is how God designed butterflies. What a beautiful phrase. Also, for those of you who may be curious, the film Valerie was in with Jimmy Stewart. Yeah, 1962's Mr. Hobbs takes a Vacation. You could also head to Valerie Sobelart.com where you can learn more about her art and her philanthropic work. And after the death of her son, she founded the Andre Sobel river of Life foundation in 1995. And from this, this came the organization Compassion Can't Wait, whose mission is, quote, when Compassion Can't Wait and single parent families are in despair, we help with the urgent expenses to allow these caregivers to stay at their child's bedside during catastrophic illness. So thank you for that, Valerie. Yes, such a wonderful cause and a wonderful woman and more wonderful guests after a brief sponsor break. Menopause, perimenopause. These can be some of the most uncomfortable phases of a woman's life.
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April Callahan
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April Callahan
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April Callahan
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- [40:01]
Cassidy Zachary
Our next guest is Marcia Battle Philpott, better.
- [40:04]
April Callahan
Known as Marsha Music, a Detroit based.
- [40:07]
Cassidy Zachary
Writer, performer, poet and cultural historian.
- [40:10]
April Callahan
She joins us and shares many of.
- [40:12]
Cassidy Zachary
Her words of wisdom about a life lived and loved in style. Marcia, welcome. Marcia, it's such a pleasure to have you here with us today Undressed. Thank you for joining us.
- [40:23]
April Callahan
Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
- [40:26]
Cassidy Zachary
Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from, what you do currently? Just a little introduction to our audience.
- [40:33]
April Callahan
I am a writer, a sometime poet. I live in Detroit, Michigan, and I have lived here or in a city within the city of Detroit, Highland Park. I live between those two cities my entire life. I am in my mid-60s and I have been increasingly practicing the art of dress even as I become older. And I take dressing very seriously and I love to dress. And I have been a student of fashion and dress really my entire life. I have a distinction in that I have never missed an issue of Vogue magazine since I was about 16 years old.
- [41:19]
Cassidy Zachary
Wow.
- [41:20]
April Callahan
And I have had a long love of the art of dressing.
- [41:26]
Cassidy Zachary
And I'm glad you brought that up because that was one of my questions. Because you appear in Ari's book Advanced Love with your husband David, and in that you write that you're a lifelong student of style. So I was hoping you could tell us maybe a little bit about the beginning of your relationship with style. Is there an early moment or formative moment in your childhood where you Remember first realizing the power of dress, what clothing could be to yourself and to your identity. Could you talk a little bit about that early relationship with style?
- [41:55]
April Callahan
I grew up in a family. My maternal family was my mother, grandmother, and my mother's four sisters. So my mother was one of five girls of her mother's family. And they were beautiful women, and my mother especially, as well as my other aunts, and they were dressers. They all had been raised in church, and so they had a very striking way of dressing, but also very modest because they had been raised up in church. And so modesty was the primary goal in that situation. So they had learned how to, on the one hand, dress modestly, yet on the other hand, to be very stylish. So I guess just being in the environment of these women had an impact on me as far as always wanting to present correctly, be correct, as they say. Then. As a young woman, a teenager, I became very much involved in social activism during the upheaval of the 1960s and 70s, the social upheaval. And I became very active in the movement, as we called it, and in the black power movement. And. And that was a time in which there was either a kind of counterculture, hippie kind of look or an eschewing of fashion. It was looked down upon to be a lover of materialism, such as fashion and trends. A lot of us young women, particularly those of us who love fashion, even then, as teenagers, we tended to dress in the way of the times. I remember wearing fatigues and combat boots and army surplus clothing, and big bell bottoms, raggedy bell bottoms from flea markets. And that was our dress back in those days. But at the same time, I always snuck away and read the story of the couture of Vogue magazine and Bazaar magazine. And that was my guilty pleasure of those times. And so it truly began to mold. The way that I looked, I affected at that time a kind of counterculture look. But over time, I skewed my look, skewed towards independent kind of look, but at the same time wanting a high. A look of high quality fabric and fiber. I love fiber. I love fabrics and textiles. And as I've become an older woman now, I'm even much more enamored of beautiful textiles and garments.
- [45:02]
Cassidy Zachary
And you said earlier that dressing is really an art. You take getting dressed very seriously. It's part of your, I'm guessing, your daily practice. How would you describe your style if you had to describe it or your approach to the art of dress?
- [45:16]
April Callahan
I have a very eclectic, dramatic, textural look. I Am a full figured woman now. And I dress with a great deal of textile and fiber. I have a very regal look. I love beautiful fashion. And so I think that those words would describe the type of style that I have. It's not necessarily Afrocentric, although some people, for lack of a better term, would describe it as Afrocentric, but it really isn't that. It's really a kind of world look, I guess one could say drawing from many cultures, although I do a great deal of African style.
- [46:04]
Cassidy Zachary
And I have to talk about yourself and your husband because you were married. You write in the book that you're married in 2012 and that he let you really help him cultivate his look. And you two have really become these fixtures, these style icons in Detroit. Can you talk about the artistic expression of dress as something that you have developed together? Is it something that you do together? Is it something you enjoy doing together?
- [46:27]
April Callahan
My husband passed away in.
- [46:30]
Cassidy Zachary
Oh, I'm so sorry. I did not know that he passed away.
- [46:34]
April Callahan
And I had written that just before he passed away. And I have posted it after Ari's book came out. Ari really honored me by having that be such a prominent part of the book. My essay that I wrote about our collective style. And I ended up posting it as an homage to him on his website. I'll put it on my website too. But he was not such a dramatic dresser as that when I met him. And I do realize that I was able to without trying to change him, because really resisted change. He really resisted me changing him. But he gravitated on his own to certain things. I remember buying him a hat as a birthday present or something. And it was basically a steampunk hat with a curled up brim, a leather hat with a curled up brim. And I thought it would be a kind of nice, whimsical piece for him. And he refused to wear it. He just refused. I'm not wearing that. I'm not wearing that. And then maybe after about a week, the hat set around and finally he put it on and bingo, that was it. He never wore another hat for the next three or four years. That was his hat. He wore it winter, spring, summer, fall. And that became such a part of his work that there are many artists who have rendered his image in painting and drawing. And that hat is always a signature of Mr. Philpott's book.
- [48:21]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. And there's these wonderful images, of course, those two wonderful images in Ari's book of you both. And of course, there he is. He's wearing the hat in Both of those images.
- [48:30]
April Callahan
Yes.
- [48:30]
Cassidy Zachary
Thank you so much for sharing that story. That's beautiful. And I'm so sorry I did not know that he had passed away.
- [48:38]
April Callahan
Yeah, I'm sorry that you didn't know that.
- [48:40]
Cassidy Zachary
I apologize, too. I feel like I missed that completely, and I apologize. But thank you for sharing that story.
- [48:46]
April Callahan
I don't think it's in the book. It doesn't say that. Because he hadn't passed away at the time of the book. I don't think.
- [48:53]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. And before I even knew I was interviewing you, that was one of the pieces in the book that I had flagged because it's just such a beautiful homage to your love story.
- [49:03]
April Callahan
Yes. Thank you. I'm so glad that you asked about it. If you had known he had passed, you might not have asked. I'm glad I got a chance to talk about that. That he was such a dynamic artist. And it was pretty obvious to me. Anybody that has this much artfulness inside of him has got to be a real dresser.
- [49:23]
Cassidy Zachary
Right.
- [49:24]
April Callahan
And I think I was able to bring it out in him. And he also had a love of scarves. And he would don these different scars and then he would take him off guards and wearing my scarves. But he loves scarves because that was just a nice dash of style, A nice long scarf wrapped around his neck.
- [49:46]
Cassidy Zachary
And I think that's gonna be so inspiring to a lot of our listeners too, because I think a lot of people don't think they can have a relationship with style or they don't know about the art and joy that can come from dressing. And that's something that you both exhibit so beautifully.
- [50:01]
April Callahan
It is so much fun. It is fun to be with any person who loves to dress, who loves to look good when they walk out. I view dressing as a certain art form and an art practice. Even if your style isn't really eclectic or artful, dressing is an art. And there's nothing like even in a conservative bent to see, let's say, a man that has all on a very nice suit, high quality fabrics, and the coordinated tie shirt. That's an art in and of itself. I think that's beautiful. And by the same token, I love to see men that have on bloomer pants and harem pants and funky clothes. All of that dressing. I read somewhere, dressing well as its own reward. And it really is.
- [51:02]
Cassidy Zachary
There's so much joy that comes with just the very practice of getting dressed and putting that outfit together.
- [51:08]
April Callahan
Yes, there is. No matter what your economics are.
- [51:12]
Cassidy Zachary
Exactly.
- [51:13]
April Callahan
There's nothing to Me more satisfying than a great ensemble put together from Value Village.
- [51:18]
Cassidy Zachary
Yep. Or spending the time to go to a thrift store and putting in the time to look through and find that one special piece, too, to complement your wardrobe.
- [51:27]
April Callahan
That's what I call my happy time.
- [51:29]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah.
- [51:30]
April Callahan
I get so happy when I walk into a thrift store. Oh, my God, I'm just so happy.
- [51:37]
Cassidy Zachary
I feel the exact same way. And that's something that my mother really instilled in me, is the fun and joy that comes from hunting and looking and finding that special piece. Marcia, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today, for sharing your stories, your history, and your philosophy of dressing. It was a real pleasure to speak with you.
- [51:56]
April Callahan
Thank you so much for listening and for appreciating someone who takes such a thing so seriously, as do I. Oh, absolutely.
- [52:07]
Cassidy Zachary
And trust me, you're an inspiration and something I think so many of us aspire to.
- [52:13]
April Callahan
I have to add this, though. I cannot tell you the high honor of having been included in this. This group of advanced style women of Ari Seth Cohen. That is an extreme honor. Women who I have been following for years on Pinterest and in the different Instagram and all that. And then for him to have reached out to me and to now include me in this wonderful collection of women dresses of a certain age. Mature Stylista. It's just really an honor. And I have really enjoyed my association with him and them.
- [52:58]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, and it's such a pleasure, too. And we're all so lucky that Ari has created this platform for all of these wonderful women like yourself, because you all are an inspiration. So thank you for sharing your art of dress with us.
- [53:12]
April Callahan
Thank you so much.
- [53:14]
Cassidy Zachary
What a beautiful love story. And I just love their shared connection to the art and power of dressing her and her husband. And another couple that is no stranger to the blending of love and style are Barbara and Stanley, which is one of two interviews I actually had the pleasure of doing in quote, unquote person over Facetime. So I will go ahead and let them introduce themselves and their very untraditional relationship. Barbara and Stanley, it is such a pleasure to have you here with us today to see your faces. Thank you so much for joining me on Dressed.
- [53:50]
April Callahan
Oh, it's such a pleasure. We're so looking forward to it. Lovely.
- [53:54]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. And I would love if you could each just introduce yourselves, tell us a little bit about yourselves, and then maybe how you both met.
- [54:02]
April Callahan
Oh, okay. Well, I'll go first because I always go first. My name is Barbara Flood. And I've been in fashion my whole life. I started as a model and then as an actor and then as a stylist and still a model and an actress. I grew up in New York City and my dad was in the clothing business. So at a very young age, I was introduced to everything connected with fashion. And it's something that I love and I'm very involved with and always will be involved with as I go along.
- [54:36]
Cassidy Zachary
What about you, Stanley?
- [54:38]
April Callahan
Okay, I come from South Africa. I was born in South Africa, left, went to Paris to art school and then lived as an artist for some years in France and then lived in France for six years and then moved to London and joined the BBC and became a producer, director of music, jazz, all music. And so that's what I did for many years until I retired and I started to paint again. And that's what I'm doing now. Here you are. But the show is called Top of the Pop. He's very shy and he's very famous, but he doesn't talk about it.
- [55:18]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. And I want to hear a lot more about Top of the Pops and your 60s modeling career.
- [55:23]
April Callahan
He was the original, first, original producer director of Top of the Pops.
- [55:27]
Cassidy Zachary
So before we get into that, and maybe this will be part of that, but how did you both meet? Because I think that's a wonderful story.
- [55:34]
April Callahan
It is a wonderful story. And Stanley will tell it to you. A condensed version. A condensed version. I'm trying to think of where to start. I was at a party and I met this director called Henry Jackman. And he talked about this movie he was doing and he said, would I like to come see the editing? So I said, that would be lovely. Next I went to see the editing. And I'm sitting and I'm looking at this horrific scene of Dennis Hopper, Dennis Harper, and boy on a beautiful girl in a train. And they were shot on a big wide angle lens and their faces are all distorted and they're licking each other. I thought, oh, my God, what am I going to say when the light goes on? Anyway, then there was a knock on the door and we stopped that and in walked this girl, the same girl, and that was Barbara. That's how we met. That's how we met. The film is called Track and it was shot with Dennis Hopper, myself, and a whole bunch of other wonderful people.
- [56:37]
Cassidy Zachary
And this is in the 1960s, right?
- [56:39]
April Callahan
Yes. Yeah. No, 1970s.
- [56:43]
Cassidy Zachary
1970S. I want to talk about the 1960s a little bit. So going back before you two both met, because, Stanley, you did Top of the Pops. You're co creator of this wildly successful, very famous and iconic TV show. I'd love to hear about that. And also, Barbara, you were one of Rudy Gernreich's models and dear friends. And so if you guys can talk a little bit about that period in your lives individually before you met, I would love, love, love to hear.
- [57:14]
April Callahan
Okay, so I had a very wonderful, successful modeling career. I still have it. And the late 60s was a very creative period in fashion. And there were no holds bars. And I worked. I was with an agency called Mannequin, and we did live Runway shows. And I worked for Oscar de la Renta and Valentino and a lot of Very Mr. Morton, Gail Kirkpatrick, and all those wonderful people. And I was so honored to be one of Rudy's girls. There were five of us that did all the shows. I did most of them in New York. And Peggy Moffatt, who was very well known. Known was in California, and she did a lot of the California shows and New York as well. And Rudy Kernrock was so ahead of his time. He was a master of everything. He designed. He designed the topless bathing suit. And we were on the COVID Three of us were on the COVID of the New York Times saying the top fell out of fashion. And there we were with our tits hanging out in these clothes. And it was caused an uproar and a huge sensation. But I've been in fashion in my head my whole life. I'm always. Too much is never enough. And I just, I follow it. And I love the new designers. And I'm always looking for creative people who do things, because I have a business called Flood's Closet, and my business requires me to find new and interesting things. So besides vintage, I'm always looking for the great new young designer who is creative. Not just boring, but creative, creative. So fashion has been my life and will continue to be my life. And he's my Barbie doll because he wasn't into fashion at all. He was only into directing. And so as you can see by his T shirt, I don't know if you can see it, but it's done by an artist. Before he met me, Stanley had no clue about fashion. He was a genius at music, but he had no idea. So we pulled it together, the two of us, sometimes.
- [59:15]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, Stanley and I'd love to hear about. Yeah. Your experience in the 1960s, fashion was such a big part of the music scene. You had to have been introduced to it, even if you might not have participated.
- [59:26]
April Callahan
In 1964 myself and a guy called Johnny Stewart devised the show called Top of the Box, which is going to be for little kids. And we shot it up in Manchester, which is way up, up north of London. We shot it in a converted church hall. We used to go up there every week and come back, and it was a funny little pop show. But then people discovered that their appearance on Top of the Pop sold records, so suddenly everybody wanted to be on the show. So we expanded it. Originally, it was geared to the top 30 on the chart, but we introduced a few little other ways of getting onto it. This is all in black and white in those days. And then BBC went into colour and we were transferred back to the London big studio in colour. And that exploded completely. And literally everybody, everybody beaten Stones, Kinks, who? But Stanley wasn't into fashion, but before I knew him, him, when he was an art student in Paris, the only way he got into fashion was I had a girlfriend who was a Dior model. So he was backstage at the Dior shows all the time. She was American.
- [60:51]
Cassidy Zachary
Oh, wonderful.
- [60:52]
April Callahan
Oh, it was wonderful. I used to go to the rehearsals and sit backstage with all the girls.
- [60:58]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, I bet. So you guys met in the early 1970s, right?
- [61:04]
April Callahan
Right in the middle 1970s, yes. I didn't come to America until 1974.
- [61:10]
Cassidy Zachary
1974.
- [61:11]
April Callahan
So this was after about five, six, something like that.
- [61:14]
Cassidy Zachary
So I'm just curious, of course, because this is a fashion history podcast, but Ari's book just gave me this excuse to talk to you both because you have this incredible story and relationship. You've been together over 40 years. I'm just curious, as you go through the 70s, the 80s, are there any other memorable periods, maybe in fashion or problems you had with fashion over those decades? The 90s, there were such changes.
- [61:39]
April Callahan
I worked for a wonderful designer called Jean Muir in London in the late 60s, early 70s, and again, she wasn't ahead of her time, but she was a permanent. Her things today would be the same as then, but she had an idea that was individual and that was all the creativity. And things got easier as we went along in the 80s, 70s and 80s, because skirts got shorter. There was all the love ins. There was every. There was a lot of creativity. And the creativity prompted the designers to experiment and to do what they wanted to do. In fact, the rock and roll people, I think, were a huge influence on fashion. Stay more dressed to like, everybody dressed differently. And like people like David Bowie and. Genius. Genius. Tremendous influence on fashion. They influenced a lot. I think there was a lot creat There was a lot of creativity. Most creativity was in the late 60s, early 70s. Then we went on and it's always expanded. But I think that was the period that affected fashion the most. The thing about working on the Top of the Pops in terms of fashion is we had these girls, girl dancers called Pan's people. American choreographer called Slick Colby. Slick Colby and five other girls. And they each week had to dance to a song that became the number one record. And we didn't know what was going to be the number one record two days before we were going to do the show. So the costume designer had to design a set of costumes and make set of costumes in a day.
- [63:28]
Cassidy Zachary
Wow.
- [63:29]
April Callahan
Each week different, completely different. And they all were gorgeous. Absolutely fantastic. You see playing of that show or Google Pans, people, you'll see this explore makeup is that she was designed creative. She was a wonderful designer, wonderful dancer, wonderful designer.
- [63:49]
Cassidy Zachary
Before we go today, I just want to talk a little bit about your relationship. You're both featured in Ari's book Advanced Love and you have this wonderful love story that's decades long, but it's not traditional by any means.
- [64:02]
April Callahan
Nothing about our lives is traditional.
- [64:04]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, you both live on separate coasts.
- [64:08]
April Callahan
That's the fact that she lives in New York and I live in Los Angeles. And we have two months or three months or one month backwards and forwards the whole year. And it keeps everything going, very much going. We're such different people and we need space to breathe. And I'm a Scorpio lady and he's an Aquarius guy. Sagittarius. The other boyfriends were Aquarius. He's a Sagittarius. And we're so different and we need space. I need a lot of space. So this has been the most perfect arrangement because it's just we're not a normal, best basic he and she couple. We're just Barbara and Stanley. And we have different lives and different interests, but when we get together, we merge the whole thing. And then we're Barbara and Stanley in la.
- [65:01]
Cassidy Zachary
One more question before you go. What advice do you have for couples such as myself and my husband, who are starting out on our lifelong journey? We've been together 13 years, but we similarly fuse his rock and roll interest. He's a musician, a rock and roller, and my fashion interests, we similarly have that dynamic, similar interest.
- [65:22]
April Callahan
Yes.
- [65:22]
Cassidy Zachary
Although we do live in the same house together. But what advice do you have for couples today?
- [65:29]
April Callahan
The first thing I think is for couples, wherever they decide to be, whether separate or part, is to give space, emotionally, physically, space for each person. You think so? Give space because then you can each express who you are and what you are and talk to each other a lot, especially if you have different interests because you can merge them together. And it should always be a creative. Each day should be a creative day for the two of you. And to be as open as possible and do exactly what you want to do with your life. If you can be free enough to politically, emotionally use your life well as a single person and as a couple, that was great. I would say the same thing. Mainly you have to let each other do exactly what they want to do in their life they want to do. Become this, let them do that. Don't restrict anything except when it comes with him in clothing. And I say, no, you can't wear that. There's a few exceptions.
- [66:44]
Cassidy Zachary
Barbara and Stanley, thank you so much for joining me today. This was really a pleasure.
- [66:48]
April Callahan
Thank you. Oh, it was such fun. Thank you so much. See you soon. Bye Bye. Bye bye.
- [66:54]
Cassidy Zachary
Talk about a power couple. Cass and what an inspiring and unique relationship. The fact that they make it work on two separate coasts is so wonderful. They both have so much autonomy and mutual respect and trust for one another. Yeah. And I can't say enough wonderful things about them both. There is actually a fabulous video on the streaming service Nowness. I think you can also find it on YouTube. It's called Barbara and Stan A Modern Romance that our listeners have to check out. And I just had so many more questions for Barbara about her Gernreich modeling days that let's just say we will be coming back again in the future to discuss. And I am very much looking forward to that. We still need to do that episode on Rudy Gernreich cast. We keep saying we're going to do that. So maybe we will make this interview with Barbara a two parter. Yes. And dressless listeners. More fabulous interviews with fabulous people right.
- [67:46]
April Callahan
After this brief sponsor break.
- [67:54]
Cassidy Zachary
Welcome back. Who's up next? Cass? Judith Boyd, AKA the style crone, psychiatric nurse turned style icon. Judith, thank you so much for joining me today. It's a pleasure to be speaking with you.
- [68:08]
April Callahan
I'm so excited to talk with you, Cassidy. Thanks for calling.
- [68:13]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. Can you just tell us a little bit about yourself for our listeners who might not already follow you?
- [68:18]
April Callahan
Tylekrone on Instagram Yes, I started blogging in 2010. It ended up being nine months before the death of my husband of over 30 years. And I started out as a cancer caregiver and I blogged that out Outfits and cancer caregiving, then outfits and us and grief. And then my reinvention. So that's how I started. And I was inspired by Ari because I found advanced style prior to starting my blog and gave me the courage to start and provided a lifeline during a very difficult time.
- [69:02]
Cassidy Zachary
So when you say reinvention, what was this relationship to dress and kind of expressive style? Something that was new for you?
- [69:10]
April Callahan
No, actually, my career as a psychiatric nurse. I always dressed up to go to work. I didn't have uniforms because we wore streetwear. And it was in that I started wearing hats to work as well as whatever I decided to put together. And I was accepted in the mental health environment. And then I also had a hat shop in the. And I sold vintage. I had a booth in an antique market. So I always had something on the side having to do with style, even though my career was psychiatric nurse.
- [69:44]
Cassidy Zachary
And I'm looking at your Instagram now, which is just. It's just full of the most beautiful color blocking and incredible combinations of fantastic hats with vibrantly colored dresses and jackets. How would you describe your style? And yes, like I said, do you have a dressing philosophy?
- [70:02]
April Callahan
It's really hard to put into words. I do adore headwear and I usually wear a hat, not always. I really like my white hair now, but I would say that I'm experimental and whatever I'm attracted to, I start with one piece and then progress from that. I have a lot of vintage because I've been collecting since the 70s. Also, I hardly ever wear anything that I don't buy retail. I focused on sustainability. That's another value that I have. So much of what I wear is from estate sales, thrift shops, consignment stores. I love supporting artisans who are also. What they create is sustainable. And so that's my area of play.
- [70:55]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. And could you tell us a little bit about your hat shop in the 80s? What inspired you to open it? Was it in New York?
- [71:02]
April Callahan
No, it was here in Denver. But we would go to New York and buy. I had a business partner. She too is a psychiatric nurse. Neither one of us had ever had retail experience. We just loved hats. And so we started this hat shop. And we had the hat shop for four years, but it was very difficult to maintain. And we closed the shop on a Saturday in 1987, and on that very. The very next Monday, I was working in the Denver General Psych Alcohol drug emergency room. So I was going for a paycheck.
- [71:37]
Cassidy Zachary
Oh, wow. But I love that you've always had like you said, you've always had style and the expressive art of dressing right alongside your work as a psychiatric nurse. I think that's really wonderful. And one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you, there's many reasons, but it's because I've been following yourself and Ari and some of your other friends and these incredible Zoom and Instagram dance parties that you've been having since COVID started during quarantine. And this is something we've discussed a lot on dressed is because so many people don't feel the need to get dressed because they're not leaving their homes anymore or they're staying homes for extended periods of time. Why is getting dressed important to you during this period? And can you tell us a little bit more about these dress up and dance parties?
- [72:28]
April Callahan
Yes. For me, getting dressed up contributes to my health because it's something that it's like a passion. And maintaining my Instagram and my blog is a purpose because not only do I talk about style, but I also talk about what's going on in my life, about aging and ageism. And as on my story, I was talking about death, which of course, we are all closer to death the older that we become. But we started Ari and Eric, Ari's husband, and then my photographer Daniel, who has been my friend since the 80s, we started doing these Zoom dance parties at the beginning of Sheltering in Place, which was in March and every Friday night. And we had no idea this was going to be something that we would continue to do. We all dressed up usually. Ari is the dj. He knows music inside and out.
- [73:24]
Cassidy Zachary
And it's so lovely that you guys have been able to, the group of friends that you have been able to find this way to be together and to still celebrate each other and the joy that comes with dressing up over in this new digital age that we're living in of Zoom calls.
- [73:40]
April Callahan
That's really true. I tell you, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing if if it wasn't for Ari in advanced style because he has brought all of us that are aging out of the shadows. And so that has indeed been a gift to my life.
- [73:56]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, and you certainly are a gift to all of us. Thank you so much for sharing your art of dress with us and thank you for taking the time to talk to me today.
- [74:04]
April Callahan
Thanks so much, Cassidy.
- [74:06]
Cassidy Zachary
Not only are Judith and Ari's dance parties fabulous, they are now also being done for a good pause. Just this last Friday, they danced to raise money for the Navajo Nation Covid relief efforts. You might remember from our interview with Amy Young of Orinda Tribe that the Dine people have been disproportionately affected by Covid. So if you head to Judith's Instagram, tylekrone, that's C R O N E, you'll find a link to that GoFundMe page as well as all Judith's fabulous images, of course. Yes. Last up, Deborah Rapoport, who, among her many talents, finds beauty in renewing the old and discarded and advises using mending as a form of meditation. Debra, welcome to Dressed. It's such a pleasure to have you here today.
- [74:50]
April Callahan
Thank you. I'm delighted.
- [74:53]
Cassidy Zachary
Can you introduce yourself to our audience, tell us a little bit about yourself, and then I would love to hear a little bit about what you're wearing as well.
- [75:01]
April Callahan
Okay. I'm Deborah Rappaport. I'm a native New Yorker. I lived here most of my life experience except the 60s and 70s. I went to graduate school at UC Berkeley. So I lived in Berkeley, the Bay Area, for all those years, and then I taught for eight years at the university there. And then I just missed New York. So 41 years ago, I came back. So this is really home. And I now live in the West Village, which to me is the best neighborhood in Manhattan, because we have the river, we have the High Line, we have the Whitney Museum, we have. We have a wonderful little park, which now we can go to every day and be in the shade. And it's beautiful. And I've always been involved, more so, as I say, personal style than fashion, ever since I'm about three and I was encouraged by my mother and grandmother. It wasn't considered superfluous or ridiculous. It was an act of creativity. And what's more important to reach yourself, capital S, than to find that creativity in whatever form it emerges, whether it's cooking, painting, gardening, dressing, making things. And I am a maker, so that's all part of it. And of course, I got a lot that from Grandma because all grandmas used to make things and encourage it.
- [76:18]
Cassidy Zachary
And you have an incredible, unique style. And you're one of the stars of Advanced Love. You're in both of Ari's books. You're in, I think, actually in all three of his books. I think he has a third one I haven't seen, and the wonderful documentary, Advanced Style. I'd love to hear a little bit more about your personal style. Is this something that you developed at a young age? Is it something you're still developing? How did you come to how you dress and your relationship with dress? Because I think even for someone like myself, I feel like I dress in a uniform. I'm still trying to find that sense of self through style. So I'm always really curious to know how people such as yourself, how you came to to it.
- [76:59]
April Callahan
To me, it's an act of play. It's not serious. I'm not trying to fit in with any trend. I just know what feels right for me. And I call it my morning meditation, where I'm by myself and I say, who am I today? Meaning how do I feel? What are my activities? What's the weather, and what's going to work for me? And it's not even an intellectual process. It just. When I ask that question, sitting quietly, I get an image and I know exactly what I want to do. And if I start out putting it on and suddenly I say no, I think it needs to be belted. So it is a process. It's not like a fixed photograph. And I go to the closet and I say, okay, outfit number 103. There's no outfit that remains the same. I just have elements. And I call it my ABCs. I call it assembly, assembling, building and constructing with color, texture, and layering. And it's become my art form. I did my graduate work working with textiles, and I started to do non loom textiles. So I could build these forms. They were more like environments than actual clothing. The whole idea was that it wasn't about apparel. It was just about building something that went on the body, and it wasn't even traditional materials. I would go to the TV station and this is back in the late 60s, and get videotape or old twine or fishing line or anything that I could find in bulk that was available. That just spoke to me. And that's what I'm still doing. People know me as the trash lady. I walk down the street, I pick up stuff, and people are always giving me things that they think is refuse, and I reuse it. So sometimes I call myself Deborah Debris or Residue Rapoport. Because every. Everything has another life. And it speaks to me. It's the relationship that I established. For instance, the necklace I'm wearing. I made it last summer when we were in Mexico for two months. And I need to work on something to keep my hands going. Because again, that's my meditation, mending as meditation. So I started just twisting masking tape because I love to twist tape. I've been doing this for decades. It's just a process that appeals to me. And they're always now on Canal street, where they used to be wonderful old stores. They're always selling bags and bags of tape that the stickum is no longer good. But for me, it wasn't about the stickum. It was about this linear element that I could manipulate. So these are just made from three different color masking tapes, twisted and then woven simple in and out over three pieces of wire. And at first I had intended to just make one, and then I realized I had two other colors of tape, and I decided to make two more. And as always, it's about layering, so I usually wear the three together.
- [79:52]
Cassidy Zachary
So style, it sounds like for you, is very much part of an artistic expression as well.
- [79:56]
April Callahan
Totally. That's what it is. The fact that I happen to be recognized for it now was not my intention. Yes. The pieces I made early on, I've always exhibited an international museums. And a lot of the pieces, like right now, there's a major piece from 69 in the Philadelphia Museum of Art, which unfortunately closed early. And it's called off the wall American Art to Wear. And so they're pieces that are, like I said, they're not apparel. So that's something the body has always spoken to me. And I used to be heavier, and I didn't love my body as a teenager. I wouldn't even put on a bathing suit when I was 16. And now I'm happy to be photographed nude. So I think the whole idea of embellishing the body, having these New York Jewish hips, how can I camouflage it and still feel the way I want to feel? Not necessarily sexy or beautiful, but what is the statement I want to say about my body? That I'm comfortable. So there's a lot of that involved. And I think all young women go through that. Our culture just is so judgmental about women's bodies, and it's terrible because it's traumatizing.
- [81:08]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. It becomes almost this internalized dialogue that we all have with ourselves about societal ideals. And you've given some incredible advice already. But your chapter in Ari's book was one of my favorite because you had, like, line after line of basically life advice. This is a philosophy of dressing, but it's also a philosophy of living, of how to live. I think one of my favorite quotes, you say, remember what you really loved when you were four or five years old, when no one interfered with your identity or your fantasies. And that just made me. It instantly sent me back to a time when I. Yeah, I didn't judge my body. I didn't have these insecurities. And I played and played with fashion and dress and clothing. Maybe not fashion as a five year old. But before you go today, are there any lessons for our listeners that you've learned living this life and style that you can impart?
- [82:02]
April Callahan
I have a couple favorite quotes that I've made up over the years. And one is where there's creativity, there are no rules. Where there are no rules, there is no fear. And I live by that because nobody can tell me how I should look or what my creative action should or shouldn't be. My other belief is what I call. It's a mantra. It's the 4T. And the first one is truth. And we all know our truth, but over the decades, it gets very deeply buried. Our culture just puts all kinds of barriers in front of us and other belief systems. So if we go inside, we can find our truth. We know what we want to look like, we know what kind of creative act we want to do. And then number two is trust. We have to trust that truth because it's too easy to be judgmental and criticize it again, hearing these other voices. So we have to trust it. And then we have to be tolerant. We have to really be tolerant of ourselves and stay with the truth and the trust. And then we have to embrace it with tenderness and then put it out there in the world and give everybody else the space to go through their four T's and we'll have a happier, more peaceful world. I do believe style is healing because then if we're allowed to be in touch with ourselves, capital as then we can be true to ourselves.
- [83:29]
Cassidy Zachary
Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much. That was really beautiful. Thank you.
- [83:35]
April Callahan
You're very welcome, listeners. You must check out Deborah's Instagram at Deborah Rappaport.
- [83:42]
Cassidy Zachary
And that's Dash E B R A R A P O P O R.
- [83:47]
April Callahan
T dot com is also where you.
- [83:50]
Cassidy Zachary
Can check out her fabulous upcycled creations.
- [83:54]
April Callahan
And rest assured, we will be doing.
- [83:56]
Cassidy Zachary
Profiles of each of today's guests this.
- [83:59]
April Callahan
Week on our Instagram feed.
- [84:01]
Cassidy Zachary
So stay tuned for that. I don't know about you, Cass, but.
- [84:05]
April Callahan
All of this, I'm so inspired right now.
- [84:07]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, it's so much to take in and such wonderful insights into things like the healing power of style. Clothing is an act of self expression, dress is an art form. And talk about shattering ageist stereotypes and tropes. This whole interview series has been just incredible. I have to say, after having admired these individuals from afar for all these years through Ari's work, it was Really a pleasure to sit down with them digitally, of course. And I really found great joy and inspiration in them all. And I'm sure our dress listeners have, too. And I also really loved everything that they had to say about sustainability and the mixing of high and low fashion shopping, secondhand, finding what's best for your body type, of course, being bold and having fun.
- [84:51]
April Callahan
And I also think that it's pretty.
- [84:53]
Cassidy Zachary
Clear that none of our guests really play into current trends per se. It's all about mixing and matching and.
- [85:00]
April Callahan
Figuring out really what works for you personally.
- [85:03]
Cassidy Zachary
And if there was one consensus among today's guests, it really has to be that clothing should spark joy. Absolutely. And I was just so inspired by my original talk with Ari that I went and pulled out my own grandmother's jewelry box that I inherited when she passed about a decade ago. And I also, like Ari, has of his grandmother. I have so many fond memories of dressing up with her when I was growing up. And while, of course, there's a few pieces of fine jewelry in there that I cherish and wear, I've never actually worn the costume jewelry that I admired as a young girl. So I recently pulled it out thanks to Ari and everyone's inspiration. And I've really been able to revisit this connection with my grandmother by wearing her old costume jewelry. So a big thank you to Ari and Advanced Style and our guest today. I am so grateful for that reminder of my own grandmother and my own connections to clothing. And time is really finite, and we have to do the best with what we have while we have it. And that includes includes life as much as the people that populate it. So on that note, dress listeners, be bold, be brave. Go out there next time you get dressed. Remember, we love hearing from you.
- [86:17]
April Callahan
So if you'd like to write to us, you can do so@hellorusthistory.com or you.
- [86:22]
Cassidy Zachary
Can also DM us on Instagram Restore.
- [86:26]
April Callahan
Podcast Podcast, which is of course where.
- [86:28]
Cassidy Zachary
You'Ll find reels and posts accompanying each week's episodes. We get so many questions from you.
- [86:35]
April Callahan
All about our recommendations for fashion history books.
- [86:39]
Cassidy Zachary
So if you're interested, you can always.
- [86:40]
April Callahan
Find a link in our show notes.
- [86:42]
Cassidy Zachary
To our Bookshop Bookshelf. So that address is bookshop.org shop dressed. And there you can find over 150 of our favorite fashion history titles. You can also find a link to that in our show Notes, where you can find a link to dressedhistory.com which of course is our website where you can check out our latest offerings. From the dress universe that includes our classes and our tours. So head over to DressedHistory.com and see what we have up our sleeves. Love dress but want to skip the ads? Consider subscribing to our ad free version of the show for just $3 a month and enjoy our eight new episodes. Episodes a month ad free. That does it for us today. Dress listeners. Thank you as always for tuning in and more dress coming your way very soon. The history of Fashion is a production of dressed Media. All you homeowners have unique needs.
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April Callahan
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Cassidy Zachary
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April Callahan
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Cassidy Zachary
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April Callahan
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Cassidy Zachary
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