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Dressed: The History of Fashion
Charles James: Genius Deconstructed, an interview with Timothy Long (Dressed Classic)
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A
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Please enjoy one of our favorite episodes from the Dressed archive of over 500 plus shows. With over 7 billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day, we all get dressed.
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A
Welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast where we explore the who, what, when of why we wear. We are fashion historians and your hosts.
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B
April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary. April Today we get to talk about the great American fashion designer Charles James. Not to be confused with James Charles. By the way, if you Google it, you'll know what I'm talking about. But before we talk about Charles James, we do want to mention a very lovely listener message from that we received actually a while back from Charlotte who wrote to us to say I am a high school student and I took the SAT two weeks ago.
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A
Oh, I hope it went well.
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B
I know, I just thought you guys would want to know that one of the passages in the grammar section was called Costume curation. And it was about how technology is used in fashion exhibitions. I talked a lot about Charles James's Cloverleaf dress. I just thought it was awesome that there was a bit of fashion history on the sat. We do, too. That is so cool.
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D
Yeah.
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A
I mean, just to think about how much our field has expanded, that it's actually on the SAT test. And Charlotte went on to say, quote, it was also cool because the test passage mentioned FIT and Valerie Steele. And I got really excited because I recognized her name from your podcast. And you better bet. Once I read this message, I emailed Val immediately and told her that she was on the SAT test.
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B
So to learn all about Charles James, we are turning to the expert Timothy Long, who has researched and written extensively on James, looking quite literally into James's clothing to deconstruct his legacy seam by seam. Now, with over 20 years of experience working with historic clothing and textiles, Tim began his career as an intern and volunteer at the Chicago History Museum. And he worked his way up to collections manager, then assistant curator, and finally the curator. So this is no small feat.
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A
And it was in his pursuit of a graduate degree that he made his way to London, where he went on to become the curator of fashion and decorative arts at the Museum of London. And he has recently moved back to his hometown of Chicago, where he is currently the director, senior specialist of couture and luxury accessories for hindman auctioneers. Tim, welcome to the show.
- [04:13]
B
Tim, welcome to the show today. We are thrilled to have you with us.
- [04:17]
D
Thanks so much for having me.
- [04:19]
B
We are here today to talk about the fashion designer Charles James, with whom you are quite familiar. So while curator of costumes for the Chicago History Museum, you curated an exhibition on Charles James in 2009, and that was entitled Charles Genius Deconstructed. And this was followed actually by a book with the V and A in London, Charles Designer in Detail. And that was published in 2015. So trust listeners. For those of you who might not know, Charles James is famous for his dramatic evening silhouettes, his illustrious and glamorous clientele, but also his temper and difficult personality. He is often recognized as a genius, albeit a torture genius. But you took this book as an opportunity to truly define this genius in ways that have been overshadowed by the glitz, the glamour, and the controversy. So, Tim, why was this important to you?
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D
I found it really important to look quite deeply at Charles James work because I had the opportunity to work quite closely with James's pieces. And it wasn't until I had that experience and I sought to learn More about him that I found there to be a void in the market, a void in the published literature that spoke about his actual construction, about his actual design. There were a few books on the market, and of course, James was included in endless books that spoke about fashion history. But I could not find very many details related to what made this man special in regards to his approach to design. And I got to work closely with Elizabeth Ann Coleman and a couple of times at the Chicago History Museum, and she wrote the book the Genius of Charles James, this absolutely incredible book. She went into all of the museums collections around the world and took stock of where the items were. And in her biography on James, she focused largely on his personality, on aspects of his history, where he was born, all things that were appropriate and needed. But I found her book, the Genius of Charles James, to have not answered that specific question as to what made him a genius. There would be statements like the exterior silk chiffon of a Charles James hide an interior layer of scientific precision or something of the like. But what does that mean? For example, what. What about actual needle and thread and fabric and patterns was different? And so that's what I sought out to try and answer, because when I was working at the Chicago History Museum, they have a very strong collection of James. Not an enormous amount. I think it's somewhere around 25 pieces. But that meant that I could sit in the basement of that museum and spend countless hours and days and weeks and months trying to figure out, well, what was he special? Was there something that made this man's legacy true? Was he a genius? Was he this special man in the history of fashion that people like even Christian Dior were inspired by?
- [08:05]
B
So in your pursuit of defining Charles James genius, is he a genius? What makes him a genius? As you mentioned, Elizabeth Ann Coleman says he's a genius, but really doesn't define it in detail. And in your book, you even say that some people dismissed his genius as being overrated. And you clearly disagree. This book is evidence that his designs and his construction techniques were indeed incredibly innovative and complex. And we're going to hear more about that in a minute. But I'm hoping you can tell us a little bit about Charles James as a young man, when he was born, his upbringing, and perhaps how his creative inspiration might have been hatched.
- [08:45]
D
Charles James was born in 1906 in Camberley in England, not too far outside of London. He was born to a American mother from Chicago, the city I am sitting in right now, my hometown, and a British father. And he had A privileged upbringing. It's very evident from the images of his youth that there was a pampered lifestyle. Really spectacular images of James and lots of ribbons and very Edwardian in his look. I have an image in my mind, I think there's a dog in the image, even with the little bow as well. And he lived a life between Chicago and Britain. And there is some good documentation through images and other family records of activities that were happening in his family, not focused on James at this point, but his mother and father and grandparents were individuals of note and individuals in society and connected to various institutions. That meant they were in the newspaper. Different social registers record different comings and goings of the family, certain members on boats and receiving this and that, and connected to members of royalty at times, or at least listed adjacent to them in the social registers. And so there was quite a bit of information to be found about James's upbringing and family descendants. And we know that he went to school with Cecil Beaton, he went to Harrow. And we start to see James's biography form and we start to see some of the beginnings of what of course we come to know about James, about his personality, about his interest in the arts. And so he didn't have a formal training in fashion, he had no training in fact in fashion. And so it surprises a lot of people that in Chicago, where he eventually ends up as a teenager and his family had lived in various places, but James went through a few different jobs. But skipping to his fashion career, it was 19 when he opens a millinery salon in Chicago. And the story goes that his father was beside himself. That his son would choose such a.
- [11:25]
B
Career because his dad is an officer. Right. Or he's in military.
- [11:28]
D
Exactly, exactly right. So that they would, you know, dear old Charlie, James would not follow in a similar pursuit was obviously quite upsetting to the family. So due to Charles, James's father, not allowing the family name to be used for this hat making salon, Charlie opens the salon at 19 years of age under the name Beaucheron. B O U C H E R O N which supposedly is either a friend of James at the time, potentially even who he received some money at the time, but supposedly it's a friend of James that for some reason he was inspired by him to use his name. And this was surprising not only because it was not the type of job that he was expected that James was expected to go into, but also because James had no training at all. But it appears that James worked with a talented hat maker and because of course he couldn't. He didn't know about it himself. And through that close relationship, James likely was the gregarious front end. And then he had someone making the hats where he learned from this person. And so it is through that training, that sort of on the job training, if you will, almost like an apprentice, that James picks up this trade. And perhaps because he was untrained, he then starts to create things that were slightly unusual. And that's what we then, of course, see continue on into his design in fashion.
- [13:17]
B
Right. So I think it's in 1928, he moved to New York and he's designing hats and dresses. And then he establishes a relationship with, I think it's Best and company who began selling it. And then he moves to London. And I know he moves back and forth quite a bit, but by the end of the decade, his designs, right, are being featured more and more in British and American Vogue, and he really starts becoming well known, you know, even.
- [13:40]
D
The first, I think within a couple of months of his arrival in London, he is already in Vogue and Harper's. And the reason for that, and this can't be detached from James's biography, is due to his close connections with Cecil Beaton.
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B
Right.
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D
That definitely helped because Cecil Beaton was already well loved and used extensively by the high fashion magazines both in the US and the UK as a photographer, as an illustrator, as a style authority. Beaton was very well connected and well loved and celebrated by this point. And because of that connection, it helps James's meteoric rise, because upon arrival in London, as you say, in the late 1920s, he sets up shop on Bruton street in 1930 in the center of the very wealthy area. And due to his mother's connections, his family connections, there's a lot of people already in that orbit. And so, yes, James, of course, is talented. I truly believe in that. But James also had very good connections, and there was cash around. James did very badly with cash. As we know, when people who are very talented and artistic, you need to let them explore that component of their brain and not force them to balance the checkbooks at the end of the day. And James, unfortunately tried to do both. And so from the very beginning, the wild success of these incredible designs is almost always adjacent to financial woe. And so we see that from the very beginnings of his life, there's even rumor that the reason why he moved from Chicago to New York so quickly and then on to London was because he was already at this point in his career, fleeing the debt collectors.
- [16:05]
B
Wow. When you mentioned his early designs here, and I think it's really important to talk about. I know his most famous designs are from the 50s, but in the 30s he's really using already innovative materials and unique construction techniques. I mean, these really are a staple of his work from very early on in his career. Can you tell us a little bit about the first collection James showed in Paris, for instance, and his ingenious use of upcycled World War I silk ribbons, which is fantastic.
- [16:36]
D
James's first collection that he presented in Paris was a compilation of many designs that he had created up to that point. Many fashion shows by James were often compilations of designs that he created over long periods of time. Sometimes even James would call clients of his and say, you remember that dress I made for you 25 years ago? Use it. And so I think when one is thinking about a collection with James, you have to detach the standard definition of a new collection, of all new themes that are different than the collection prior. James really was more of an evolution over each season. And so that collection that he presented did have new things, as you mentioned, the wide millinery ribbon created by Colcombe at the time a famous Parisian ribbon company. And he designed these exquisite garments, many of which still exist. Many are at the VA in London. And unlike other designers who use the ribbon in their own way, but very similar to each other, James cuts these ribbons into little bits and shapes these ribbons into ways that really make a mark. Because those ribbon dresses that he presents, there are endless orders of them. And the receipts of those orders survive at the V and A museum in London. And those designs, that presentation. There were many fashion designers in Paris who attended Schiaparelli, for example. Supposedly Schiaparelli even sent some of her best models over and there's some spectacular photography. So I think what that did. Even though James was around for a while, James had his own salon. He was very much celebrated in the high fashion glossies. He was almost as if the industry accepted him or he felt the industry had accepted him by that presentation in Paris during that time.
- [19:00]
B
So James really honed his skills throughout the 1930s, creating of course, body skimming bias cut gowns which were in line with the fashionable silhouette of the day. But by the end of the decade, he's already experimenting with the sculptural designs and artificial silhouettes with which he will become synonymous. So, Tim, let's talk puffer coats a la 1937.
- [19:22]
D
This coat has really stayed with me since I had the pleasure of spending an entire day with it. In the depths of the storerooms at the Victorian Albert Museum in London. This piece, the puffer coat, as many call it, or as Salvador Dali referred to it as the first soft sculpture.
- [19:44]
B
That's incredible, right?
- [19:48]
D
Getting Salvador Dali to make a quote about one of your items. Of course, they knew of each other. They really were in the same circles. Dali, James, Jean Cocteau, as we mentioned previously, Cecil Beaton. There are a lot of artists around James at the time. And what we find is it's during this period, I think, that is this sort of purity years, if you will, the pure years of James's design. After I curated the Genius Deconstructed exhibition, as you mentioned, I went on to write a book on James, but then I was able to write a chapter in another book called London Couture 1923-1975 British luxury. That was for the VA. And in that book I wrote a chapter just on James's London years. And it was a real joy to focus on just about seven, eight years during James's London years because there was this almost like a little think tank or artist commune that I think James absolutely thrived in. He had his studio, which was this place where people would meet on Thursdays. Supposedly there was this gathering that James would have in his salon where all of the leading artists, socialites, free thinkers, progressive thinkers, would come. And that's where we see some of James's, or it's, in my opinion, some of the greatest ideas that James had. And because we know James worked on ideas for the rest of his life, this seven years, I think, gave him a lot of seeds that he continued to mature throughout the rest of his career. And one of them is the puffer coat. Yes, it was made in Paris, but the seed of the idea, as can be found in other garments, where you can see clues of the puffer coat forming that begins in London. And it is such a spectacular jacket. It's called the puffer coat. It's more an evening jacket because it really stuns, I think, the viewer when you first look at it. Now, of course, we all have the puffer coat, but James really took the idea of a padded interior and created art out of it. The lines of this jacket don't really seem to be natural or how can that be a jacket? It really struck me the first time I saw it and I couldn't figure it out. Of course, it's very difficult to figure out, and unfortunately, it's the way it currently is. Some stitching has come loose on the interior and due to that some tucks in internal things have meant that the way we see it today is not the way James meant to see it. And so, upon this close inspection, that I know that they don't often give this kind of access to this piece. It has some fragile components.
- [23:14]
B
Yeah, I'm. I'm, like, supremely jealous that you've spent all this intimate time with one of my. I mean, this is absolutely one of my favorite pieces of fashion ever. It's incredible.
- [23:26]
D
Yes. You know, I feel the same. And so I have made a replica one for myself. It's in process as I continue to figure it out. So what's, I think, really important here is, as you say, as you noted, it's a point where James starts to take a different route in his design from where in the 30s. He really wanted his designs very 30s, very bias cut, but they really enhanced the figure. He wanted the cuts and the pleats and the darts to enhance the quote, unquote, natural figure of the wearer. Where from the puffer coat on, it's James providing the wearer with the visible silhouette. It's where James starts to use his authority on pattern cut, on grain, but also, I think, really key here on the manipulation of that grain. If you think of the use of grain, typically we have sort of two grains, if you will. It's on grain, it's off grain. But James's patterns exist all in the middle and every variation. And it's this dress or this jacket. Pardon, this item, where it's him putting it into place. He experiments with a few other designs prior to this, and one day I will see them all next to each other in a book or in an exhibition that I produce, because I think it really is amazing to see the origin. But he starts to realize that by using his unique approach, he can create the silhouette that he wants the wearer to have. And it is due to this that I think this piece really is extremely important to James. He, of course, credits it with being one of his best designs. But we, as viewers of his work have, as you have said, have recognized this piece as being something really important. And that's why I think many people think that it's one of the most important pieces of 20th century design.
- [25:56]
B
Oh, absolutely.
- [25:58]
D
Yes. So watch this space. But there's definitely some work that I'm getting into right now on trying to reveal some of the. The secrets of this item.
- [26:08]
B
Well, I cannot wait. And Tim is, of course, referring to his fantastic Instagram account, Timothy Long, Fashion Curator. So follow him immediately for daily fashion history posts and we will hear more from Tim after a brief sponsor break.
- [26:26]
A
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B
So to help define James genius, as you've discussed here, you conducted this thorough analysis of extant Charles James garments, such as this incredible puffer coat, but also, you know, the butterfly dress and the floral leaf clover dress and all of these incredibly iconic James pieces that are in museum collections around the world. And I keep picturing you in the basement surrounded by Charles James. It's this incredibly wonderful image.
- [30:15]
D
I had the luxury of working closely with his designs. I had the luxury of a boss and a institution that wouldn't mind not seeing me for long periods of time because I was deep inside these exquisite pieces. But when it came to looking at James, there was something different. And it jazzed me and got me going. So excited. That's why I proposed Genius deconstructed. And in the development of that exhibition, we brought many garments to the hospital or to the Museum of Natural History, where they had X ray machines and CT scans because there were many layers inside. There are many layers inside James's work where you can't. You can't get to them because there are multiple layers inside another layer and there's all this weird padding. And I knew that in order to really decipher what was going on and really understand how the clover was made, how the butterfly was made, how these iconic designs that I had in my fingertips, we enlisted the help of all of these X ray technicians who were really excited to help us. So in goes a mummy, and then we take that out, and then in goes Charles James, or in goes a few patients. And then we would get a call from the technician that said, oh, we've got a break in the schedule. And then in goes a few Charles James. And so the X rays and CT scan, the information they provided was of absolute paramount importance because we were able to see grain lines, we were able to see darts, seam lines. We could determine different types of fabric that we obviously would not be able to see otherwise. And so in that exhibition, we took the reproduction to the next level and remade the interiors of many of his most celebrated designs to exhibit adjacent to the originals. So you would come in and you would see these exquisite pieces of 20th century design, iconic pieces that we all have known and come to love. And adjacent to them were these replicas of the interior. And it was an absolute joy. I again worked with the same two students who went on to become professionals by this point and enlisted a lot of other very talented people who really embraced the project. And it was an absolute joy. So that exhibition opened right after I left the Chicago History Museum and ended up going to graduate school, strangely enough.
- [33:30]
B
So let's talk about the specific construction techniques that James used in his gowns and the surprising role that geometry played in his design process.
- [33:39]
D
Charles James took many approaches when creating his designs, and one that regularly surfaces is his use of geometry. He writes about it, you can see it in his illustrations, some from the 1970s that look very much like futurism or cubism. Even in some of his pattern cutting. When you look at them as pieces of art or look at them as not a device that you cut a garment from just the shapes themselves, you can see the trueness that he has of always coming back to geometric shapes and geometric patterns. It's why many authors and fashion historians have called James and people like Madeleine Vionnet or Halston, they'll refer to them as geometricians, as Madeline Vionnet referred to herself. These approaches by a designer or an artist that seem to naturally come back to the use of geometry and the human body and how geometry and the human body can work in harmony. You can see these discussions, of course, by architects of the period, Corbusier and others, that will describe very similar approaches to how the human being and our interpretation of how the human being fits within this world, using geometry as that connector, as that conduit. And once I started to look more closely, I found some really exciting aspects of triangles, curves, spheres in James's work. And when you are able to look at a garment and turn that into a two dimensional pattern, where you can either physically make a pattern or in your mind, see how some of these items fit together. The core idea behind many of his garments starts off with rather simple geometry and how simple shapes fit together. And so we see that in his spiral dress, the use of the spiral, but even the four leaf clover. I, very late in my research on James, was able to get my hands on the actual four leaf clover. I had worked with an earlier iteration at the Chicago History Museum, which we'll talk about, I think, in a minute when we get to plastic but while that one has a four leaf clover shape that's made by manipulating plastic, the later one that we all know, that black and white one really is the use of geometry. That over skirt, that black and white over skirt is a flat piece of fabric. And the way it intersects with the cone of the dress or the cone shape of the dress really comes back to some of the basics of how geometry is created or was created. These ideas of intersecting triangles, spheres, planes, to create the sphere or cone shapes that we find in geometry. And once you start to look at many of his designs, you see it over and over again. These returns to geometric shapes to create some of his most notable designs.
- [37:33]
B
Oh, and dress is so sculptural that they often receive their own custom mounts for storage and museum collections to keep this incredible shape. I mean, I know a lot of people jest. Oh, Charles James gowns could really stand on their own, but they're. And they're just incredible feats of craftsmanship. And now we know of geometry.
- [37:53]
D
Yeah. I had the pleasure of making many of those mounts to store James's pieces in the storeroom. And it really is a challenge. You really, as an institution, to store James, you have to spend a great deal extra time just to keep them in their shape. So it is an endless updating that must be done as well to keep these things in good condition.
- [38:16]
B
Because whereas a lot of garments would be stored, hanging, or flat, Charles James gowns really are stored, like I said, in the shape of the gown, as it probably would have been worn on the body. So they're incredible. Absolutely incredible. And you've talked about geometry now, but let's talk a little bit more about the millinery training and how that informed his work.
- [38:35]
D
Yes. I think while I get really excited about the geometric approach and some of the discoveries I made with his pieces, it the realization that James took the approach he had learned of in millinery to garments, that's one of the discoveries in my own research that I just really was shocked by. This truly is something that I think sets James apart from others. So James, as we've mentioned, and as many may know, of course, starts as a milliner and then eventually quite quickly goes into clothing design and continued to make hats throughout his life. And so how many hats are made, of course, is a technique called blocking. So you have the shape of a head in wood or other materials, and you then through applying heat and moisture, you block or reshape felt or other materials over that head form. You let it cool. And depending on the material, it can often retain that shape once the moisture and heat is gone. And so James was introduced to that technique as an untrained milliner when he had his hat still on. And as an untrained milliner, James perhaps wasn't restrained by a taught approach. This is how you make a hat. You do this, and boom. And so we find some designers who aren't trained can have a different approach, because, again, perhaps they can approach these problems with a bit of a freer mind than what is taught. And so when it comes time for James to make garments, to fulfill these ideas he was clearly having from hat design to fashion design, it's not surprising that he continues to block fabric. But for garments, it's what really tickles me here, is this totally strange approach to where James would instead of creating a head in wood, he would create the body like a mannequin. But if you see some of these early shapes, they're like these almost like fish like shapes, where he would mold the body into the shape that he wanted the wearer to be. So often an exaggerated hip, a small waist. So it's not a normal mannequin. He would create an exaggerated mannequin. And then the legs, instead of having two legs, he would have this sort of fish tail, which was the stride of the wearer when walking. So he would know that if he built the mold to fill in where the legs go when you walk, that is how much movement or room the wearer would need. So he would then take these weird, often papier mache structures he built and then block the garment on top. And sometimes using steam, he would block that shape to stay like that. And then the wearer would get into that dress, of course, and then that shape would relax onto the wearer. So a totally unique approach where typically, of course, you would drape on the human body or you would pattern cut for the human body, James would create this sort of intermediate phase of this shape, like a head mount, and then mold the garment on that. And eventually he continues to do this for decades. And many of these molds still survive. And while some are made out of paper mache or harder materials, others are made out of a dress form, like a dressmaker's dummy that's covered in clothes. And then he would pad them out to these wild shapes and then cover that padded shape, sometimes with boning to help control the shape or support the shape, and then an exterior layer of fabric. And with many of these having survived, I traveled around and I saw them, and the way he would pad them is just so perfectly Charles James. You could look on the inside and see a newspaper probably that was sitting on the counter when he had this crazy idea. And he would just grab whatever he could to fulfill this shape in his mind. And so he would create these weird shapes, totally unnatural, and then use those to drape his creations. And so I think his untrained eye, his unusual approach, really gave him this ability to create what we now see as unique shapes in the history of fashion design.
- [44:15]
B
Yeah. And you actually have images of both those types of dress mannequins padded out by James in the book, which are incredible. When I first saw it, one of them, I thought, oh, is that a Comme des Garcons dress? Because it looks like this abstract dress form. But it's incredible to think that he then draped this, of course, incredibly beautiful silk gown on top of it. So we're going to learn more about James unique approach to fashion after a short sponsor. Welcome back, dress listeners. So, Tim, you write that quote, James was mainly an experimenter, a test driver for ideas and concepts. So this spirit of experimentation led to numerous innovations from the creation of dress forms to fabric. So let's talk about perhaps one of the most unlikely materials that James used in his gowns. And you mentioned it earlier, but what did he think about plastic?
- [45:12]
D
So if you look on the inside of many Charles James's garments, even some that appear quite light gossamer, you might be surprised to find a lot of plastic on the inside. And maybe today, plastic on the inside of garments might be considered lower end material instead of more natural fabrics. But of course, we must remember that throughout the period James was designing, plastic comes into use. And of course, for experimentation driven designers, they are always looking for new and exciting materials. And so when plastic starts to surface, James is one of the first to use the material. And interestingly though, he starts to use some plastics in rather unusual ways. One of the materials that I see quite regularly is almost like the screens that we have in our windows, but out of 100% plastic. So it's a rather loosely woven plastic fabric, almost like what one might cross stitch with. And he uses that quite a bit as an under layer in his 1950s garments, for example. And those are perhaps used quite in a standard approach where you under layer your silk exterior with this plastic layer to help give it a great deal of structure, but also at times some buoyancy because of its plastic properties. It has a little spring to it. But some of the other materials I found quite unusual in James's approach is he would take that plastic layer and then he would quilt it. So he would use the plastic, the properties of plastic, and bend that screen like material into a shape and then stitch it to retain that shape. Or also really interesting is he would heat set plastic. And this is where I think we see his unusual approach. So while others were using plastic in a more standard way, as an under layer, or sometimes even in the hem of a garment, you would use the kind of biased braid. James would start to melt the plastic, he would start to deform the material in perfect Jamesian way, where the natural properties not only inspire him, but inspire him to take it to the next level, to apply his interpretation of what those properties can do. And we see this in the beginnings of the four leaf clover. While James uses geometry to create the four leaf clover in the more celebrated, more well known white and black, or cream and black trimmed with black velvet design. The earlier version that the Chicago History Museum has is made with a hoop skirt, if you will, or the concept of a hoop skirt. But how James holds the four leaf clover shape in place on this piece is if we go back to that hat blocking method. James creates a hoop skirt style mount, so this big block of foam and carves into it this sort of four leaf clover shape. So if you're looking at it from above in plan view, you can see that this skirt shaped mount from above looks like a four leaf clover. So he then drapes the hoop skirt fabric over that. And then as hoop skirts need, he then stitches the horizontal hoops into the skirt. But of course, if you were to then let that skirt free, those horizontal hoops would spring back into a circular shape, creating the standard hoop skirt. Well, James doesn't want it in a circle shape, of course. He wants it to retain this four leaf clover. So what does he do? He makes melts the fabric of the plastic tubes. And so I, of course, am inside this dress and I'm realizing these things. I'm seeing the bones, which I first thought were misshapen from improper storage. But then I realized, oh no, these are certainly. This is totally intentional. This plastic tubing, this plastic tubing boning has been heat set. So the pattern and the heat set plastic are what hold this manipulated hoop skirt into shape. And so I was of course, like giddy with excitement as I started to figure this out. And that's the first dress that I recreated by recreating this foam structure and then draping the pattern off of the original. So I got on the inside Layer and then stitching the plastic tubing around this plastic foam shape. And then with a heat gun, I heated up the plastic, and then with pins, I pinned it on just like you would a hat. Imagine if you want, like, Philip Tracy, those crazy hats, of course, he has to pin various things to keep it on the head mount until it cools. And you do the same with plastic. And that's what James did. You melt that plastic to get it to loosen up, hold it into that shape, let it dry. And that's what he did with each of those rings. So the use of plastic in James's work and its crazy weird properties, that I'm sure delighted him to no end. And I can just see his, like, mind firing off all these crazy ideas of how to take this new and wonderful material and make it perform like he wanted it.
- [51:53]
B
So I. I really don't think anyone can argue, Tim. I mean, you've. You've done it. You've truly realized and defined Charles James genius.
- [52:02]
D
Mm. Thank you.
- [52:05]
B
And, you know, he is most famously remembered for his evening gowns, but also his, as you've mentioned a few times, his difficult personality. And the latter is an association that you write, came very early in his career when he was profiled even by Harper's Bazaar as being somewhat of a tortured artist. And they highlighted his creative agony. And this, you know, photographing him in this hotel room where he was working. By thoroughly examining James creative oeuvre over the span of his career, you are essentially letting his work speak for itself. I mean, it is speaking to you with all this time you've spent with it. And the genius is really in the details of James's garments and not his personal life. And I'm really interested to get your opinion on can an artist ever truly be separated from his art? Because I think especially this has kind of come up repeatedly with kind of these great artists or people throughout history who have really problematic personal lives. Most recently Karl Lagerfeld, for instance, with his passing, you know, people are jumping to celebrate his career and other people are jumping to point out, you know, these problematic things that he said and did. So what is your take on that?
- [53:15]
D
I do not think that you can separate the two. Most definitely not. With Charles James, I can't help but think of Amy Winehouse, for example. The biography of an individual and the art that they produce are, of course, one and the same. They are together. They are intertwined. I remember, actually, it reminds me of a moment years into my research into James, because it was over a 10 plus year period over different exhibitions where I included his work and some and then focused on specifically. I studied him in the uk, I studied him in the United States. I traveled to people's homes to find things about him. I found, of course, his own collections in various places and in a museum in the depths. You know, one day, going through some things that didn't really matter much, I found a few letters. And I feared that I wouldn't have liked James. I feared that I was studying this man who in these letters said these things that really made me mad. And of course, we know about him being the highs and lows and this and that, but I had to step back for a moment and allow him to be, of course, a human being. And if you take a letter or one sentence of a person's life over a long period of time and assess them in their entirety off of that, I think that's unfair. It also reminds me of the spectacular story I read about James, who was at the time working with a fur company who was making his designs. And there was some disagreement and James did not feel that they were working to his standards. So supposedly, reportedly, James comes into the manufacturing plant with a glass jar full of moth that he threatened as he's screaming, holding it in his hand, high above him, saying, if you do not make my designs the way that I intended, I will release this jar. And so you can just imagine. But you know, the women who were around him and who he would slight and say horrible things, you know, there was another side to him as well. And so I think the tumultuous up and down life had to exist in order for us to know the Charles James that we know today. So in no way do I feel that one could detach the individual from the art.
- [56:01]
B
And in closing, can you speak to James legacy today?
- [56:06]
D
Charles James lives within many of the celebrated designers that came after him, who trained under him, who were devotees of his, designers that I've spoken to who would go to James's. In the Hotel Chelsea in New York where he dined. There were positive things that some designers have said. There were some negative things about him, about relationships they had. But you can even today continue to hear designers referencing James's work and the inspiration that James had. His biography, of course, is there. But what I think is celebrated most by some of the most celebrated designers of the 20th and 21st century is his craft, is his approach to cut. It is unique. There is a Jamesian style that you can hear other people's work described as and People know what that means, the certain flare or curve to a seam or a dart that just captures something that is so recognizable as James. You can see it, of course, in the Met's exhibition and that celebrated exhibition of theirs celebrating his work. James work is regularly, annually included in exhibitions around the globe. And so I speak about James quite often with the designer, American designer Ralph Rucci. Through James's work, I have become close with Ralph Rucci. I met Ralph through a fashion event. And by discussing Charles James work, Ralph and I have developed a very fun relationship, a friendship, and we often come back to talk about James. We've looked at James's pieces together. We've analyzed cut and seam, and Ralph regularly evokes James in his approach. Ralph, of course, also speaks about Halston. Halston, of course, was greatly inspired by Charles James. So James legacy is strong and still very much a vibrant force in fashion today.
- [58:40]
B
And in many ways, thanks to you and your incredible work. Thank you so much for being here today, Tim. This was a pleasure.
- [58:47]
D
Absolutely. It was a pleasure of mine. Thanks so much for the invitation, Tim.
- [58:53]
A
Thank you so much for being here.
- [58:54]
B
Yeah. And I want to say that another designer that I think deserves a shout out for precision and mastery of technique is Zach Posen. In fact, if you Google Charles James, Zach comes up immediately, and he really makes the most incredible sculptural evening gowns. He is certainly keeping that tradition alive while also updating it for today's day and age. And actually for the Met Gala, Zach paired with GE additive and proto labs to 3D print his designs and design elements. Jordan Dunn, for instance, wore this 3D printed rose petal dress. It was pretty incredible.
- [59:26]
A
Yeah, it was actually one of my favorite pieces from that event. And it's something that we actually didn't talk about when we covered it on one of our fashion history mystery episodes. But from what Tim has revealed to us, there is no doubt in my mind that James would have been also at the forefront of this exciting new period of design technology. Charles. Charles James died on September 23, 1978, at the Hotel Chelsea, or the Chelsea Hotel, which is actually right around the corner from fit. But his legacy and design innovations will continue to live on in these new technologies and people like Zac Posen. So may you consider the legacy of Charles James. Next time you get dressed.
- [60:09]
B
Please head.
- [60:09]
A
Over to Dressed Underscore podcast on Instagram or at Dressed Podcast without the Underscore on Facebook to check out the visual content associated with each week's episodes.
- [60:21]
B
Remember, we love hearing from you. Dress listeners. So if you'd like to write to us you can do so@hello dresshistory.com Dresshistory.com is also our website where you can sign up for our monthly newsletter, our in person tours and online fashion history courses. And there you can also check out whatever else we have up our finely tailored sleeves.
- [60:39]
A
We get so many questions from you all about our recommendations for fashion history books, so if you're interested you can always find a link in our show notes to our bookshop.org bookshelf so that address is bookshop.org shop dressed and there you will find over 150 of our favorite fashion history titles.
- [61:00]
B
Do you love Dressed but want to skip skip the ads? We are so excited to now be a part of the Airwave Network and their premium ad free history subscription Airwave History plus and this is available on Apple Podcasts and the subscription brings you our podcast as well as 27 other popular history podcasts ad free for 5.99 per month. More information is available at the link in our bio.
- [61:25]
A
Thank you as always for tuning in and more Dressed Coming coming your way soon. The History of Fashion is a production of Dressed Media Experience, the sequel everyone's been waiting for. With Sideline 2 intercepted, join Drayton and Dallas as they navigate the challenges of college life while trying to stay true to themselves and each other. Catch all the drama and watch Sideline 2 Intercepted, starring Noah Beck and Sienna Agadong for free. On to be this Thanksgiving.
- [61:58]
E
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