Dorothy Grant: An Endless Thread

Summary

Podcast Title: Dressed: The History of Fashion
Episode: Dorothy Grant: An Endless Thread
Release Date: April 30, 2025
Host: April Callahan & Cassidy Zachary
Guest: Dorothy Grant, Haida Artist and Fashion Designer

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Introduction

In the episode titled Dorothy Grant: An Endless Thread, hosts April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary delve into the illustrious career of Dorothy Grant, a pioneering Haida artist and fashion designer. The conversation explores Grant's journey from creating ceremonial regalia to becoming a trailblazer in the indigenous fashion movement, culminating in her influential role in Native Fashion Week Santa Fe.

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Guest Introduction and Early Inspirations

[01:28] Cassidy Zachary introduces Dorothy Grant as one of the foremost figures in indigenous fashion, highlighting her role in the upcoming Native Fashion Week Santa Fe. Grant emphasizes her heritage, saying, “I come from the Haida nation,” and traces her roots back to Heidelberg, Alaska, currently based in Canada.

[05:03] When asked about her earliest memories related to dress, Grant recalls learning to sew at 13, which ignited her passion for fashion design. She explains, “I was a seamstress from the time of age 13,” laying the foundation for her future endeavors in both ceremonial and mainstream fashion.

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Transition to Fashion Design

Grant shares her initial foray into making ceremonial garments in her early twenties, a natural progression from her sewing skills. [07:22] She recounts being selected by her maternal grandmother to learn spruce root basketry, a complex Haida craft. This experience was pivotal, as it not only honed her craftsmanship but also spurred her to integrate Haida formline art into fashion design.

[10:37] Grant discusses her role in the Northwest Coast Revival of the 1980s, asserting that she was among the few, if not the only, indigenous designers venturing into commercial fashion. Her groundbreaking efforts in translating traditional Haida formline into modern silhouettes marked a significant shift in indigenous representation in the fashion industry.

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Breaking Into the Fashion Scene

[11:12] As Grant navigated the predominantly Euro-American fashion landscape, she highlights the challenges of being a native designer. Despite initial skepticism, her innovative designs gained recognition, leading to her first collection in 1989—a milestone that garnered extensive publicity even before the internet era.

[15:20] Grant shares an anecdote about the overwhelming demand at her early fashion shows, noting, “People were waiting and lined up outside my booth,” illustrating the immediate impact and acceptance of her work within both indigenous and broader communities.

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Cultural Significance and Decolonization

A central theme of the episode is Grant's commitment to decolonizing indigenous fashion. [25:28] She elaborates on the Haida concept of yagudang—respect—which permeates her design philosophy. This ethos ensures that her work honors cultural traditions while pushing creative boundaries.

[27:33] Grant reflects on the historical context of indigenous resistance through fashion, recounting how her designs serve as statements of empowerment and cultural pride. By integrating Haida art into everyday wear, she challenges stereotypes and redefines indigenous identity in contemporary fashion.

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Legacy and Mentorship

In discussing her ongoing influence, [35:38] Grant expresses pride in her role as a mentor to emerging indigenous designers. Her participation in Native Fashion Week Santa Fe symbolizes the growth and vitality of indigenous fashion, a movement she helped catalyze decades earlier.

[36:42] Grant also mentions her efforts to educate future generations through workshops and curriculum development, ensuring that her expertise and cultural heritage continue to inspire and inform upcoming designers.

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Conclusion

Dorothy Grant's journey from a young seamstress to a venerated fashion designer exemplifies the fusion of cultural heritage and modern artistry. Her relentless pursuit of innovation and respect for Haida traditions has not only shaped her own career but also paved the way for a flourishing indigenous fashion movement. As Native Fashion Week Santa Fe approaches, Grant's legacy serves as both a foundation and a beacon for future designers striving to blend tradition with contemporary fashion.

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Notable Quotes

• Dorothy Grant [05:03]: “I was a seamstress from the time of age 13.”

• Dorothy Grant [10:37]: “I just really move forward with it in a really strong, positive way and committed. Just basically committed my life to it.”

• Dorothy Grant [22:00]: “So my clothing became, to a lot of people, that symbol of transformation and pride.”

• Dorothy Grant [25:28]: “Yagudang really was a core center of my philosophy, my vision...respect for oneself and for all that surrounds you.”

• Dorothy Grant [27:33]: “I wanted this clothing line to be able to decolonize the way people thought about us.”

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Final Thoughts

Dorothy Grant: An Endless Thread is a compelling exploration of how one designer's dedication to cultural integrity and artistic excellence can influence an entire industry. Grant's story is not just about fashion; it's about identity, resilience, and the power of art to effect social change.

For more insights into Dorothy Grant's work and her upcoming showcases at Native Fashion Week Santa Fe, listeners are encouraged to explore her monograph, Dorothy Grant An Endless Thread, and follow her journey through her official website and social media channels.

Transcript

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[April Callahan]

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[Dorothy Grant]

Go to your happy price.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Priceline the History of Fashion is a production of dressed media with over 8 billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day, we all get dressed.

[April Callahan]

Welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast that explores the who, what, when of why we wear. We are friends, fashion historians and your host, April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Hello dress listeners, and welcome to the first of two episodes coming your way this week dedicated to the past, present and future of indigenous fashion design and the thriving indigenous fashion movement that really has taken the world by storm these past few years. As you know, we have covered it quite extensively on the show and it's really been ever evolving with an increasing momentum that shows no signs of stopping anytime soon. And this is exemplified by not one, but two native fashion showcases happening next week in Santa Fe, a vibrant cultural center and meeting ground for indigenous fashion innovation and storytelling coming from designers across North America.

[April Callahan]

But let's not think that this is anything new, because indigenous fashion designers were America's first fashion designers, after all, and the dozens of designers presenting at this year's festivities follow in a very long tradition of fashion creatives from various indigenous cultures spanning the continent and thousands and thousands of years who have used dress as a really vibrant artistic canvas for personal and cultural expression. One of these designers is today's guest, Haida artist and fashion designer Dorothy Grant, whose quote designs embody 10,000 years of living Haida culture and Dorothy is one of the 30 designers whose work will walk the Runway in the first ever Native Fashion Week Santa Fe, a four day immersive fashion experience to be held at the Santa Fe Railyard Art District May 8th through the 11th. But there would arguably be no Native Fashion Week without the groundbreaking designers like Dorothy, who, with a career spanning four decades, in many ways laid the foundation for today's thriving indigenous fashion scene, just as her ancestors laid the foundations for her.

[Cassidy Zachary]

As we will learn today, Dorothy began her career making ceremonial regalia before entering the commercial mainstream fashion conversation in the late 1980s. And this is a time, dress listeners, when you are more likely to see Euro American designers, so white Euro American designers selling culturally appropriated Haida designs than you were to see actual Haida designers representing their own cultural heritage. But Dorothy was incredibly instrumental in changing all that, becoming the first artist to translate Northwest coast formline. And formline is that highly stylized and distinctive artistic style. It's known for its flowing, curvilinear renderings of animals and other motifs. And as you saw it, you would instantly know, famously on things like Chilcot blankets. But anyway, she was the first to translate that formline onto these impeccably crafted, fashionable silhouettes for sale to a wider clientele. And her first collection, debuted in 1989, was a sensation. And it launched Dorothy into this successful fashion career that she has shown no signs of stopping almost 40 years later.

[April Callahan]

Dorothy's work has always represented the highest level of hand craftsmanship, artistry, and visual storytelling, something impeccably illustrated in the recently released monograph, Dorothy Grant An Endless Thread, which is a celebration of her life and work. And we are so, so pleased to welcome Dorothy to the show. Dorothy, welcome to Dressed.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Dorothy, welcome to Dressed. I am so honored and excited to talk to you today.

[Dorothy Grant]

Thank you. I'm honored to be here.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I first just want to say congratulations on this monograph of your 40 plus year career. It's exceptionally beautiful.

[Dorothy Grant]

Thank you so much.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And for those who might not be familiar with your work, do you want to just do a brief introduction to yourself?

[Dorothy Grant]

My name is Dorothy Grant. I am an artist fashion designer, and I come from the Haida nation. I was born in Heidelberg, Alaska, and have been living and working in Canada for the past 45 years.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I'm really excited to talk to you about your incredible career. But before we take a deeper dive, I want to ask you a question that I ask a lot of our guests, a lot of our fashion history makers on the show. Do you have an earliest memory of dress from your Formative years that you'd like to share with us or something that perhaps sparked your interest in pursuing the expressive powers of fashion?

[Dorothy Grant]

I think it was something that, for me, that evolved just from my life experience, just beginning from when I was 13 years old and learning how to sew on a Singer sewing machine so I could alter our clothes for school or make clothes for school. And once I learned how to operate a machine, I would just study patterns and put them together. And so I was a seamstress from the time of age 13. And then I started to delve into making ceremonial garments in my early 20s. And that just became natural because I loved the feeling of textiles and cutting height of artwork just seemed to come natural for me. And sewing it by hand was painstakingly a patience tester. But I think it formed a really good basis for going forward and creating something innovative at the time. So this would be about the mid-80s, about 1986, when I did my very first garments. It really was about thinking forward and not sort of boxed in in terms of what traditional garment tree might look like. But I wanted to bring it forward in modern day fashion, which at the time, nobody had ever thought of that concept before.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah, and you're actually quite groundbreaking in that regard. And I want to talk to you a little bit more about that. But first, would you mind talking to us just about your entry into making ceremonial garments and some of the cultural practices, but also historical objects that you engaged with in that process? Because I think a lot of that informs your early work in fashion design as well.

[Dorothy Grant]

Yeah, I was pretty honored to been selected by my, one of my maternal grandmothers in Haida. We have a lot of grandmothers, particularly if we're the same clan. And Florence Edenshaw Davidson was my teacher of spruce root basketry. She actually chose me and said, I'm going to teach you to weave. It wasn't an ask, it was a statement. And I'm like, okay, I'm on, I'm here. I realized it was an honor. And so I learned the craft of weaving spruce root, which I would have to say is one of the most complex weaving art forms in the world next to chilkat weaving. It's such a refined type of weaving art form, and I mastered it in a few years time. I was making very fine basketry hats, painted baskets, embroidered really fine baskets. And I didn't do a lot of it, but what I did was I felt like I needed to push the boundaries and move into more of the graphic work of Haida formline. And then I became involved with a Haida dance group here in Vancouver, and there was a need for new regalia. And so I raised my hand saying, I can do that. I've made some pieces before. And so it was really engaging to work with a dance group and create their regalia for them, which consisted of button robes, dance aprons, tunics, painted hide kind of stuff. And then somewhere along the way, during one of these artistic meetings where we would gather, and these were quite now older people and masters of their art back in the day, and they wanted to talk about. We talked really in depth about what can we do in Haida art to bring it more forward to the world. They were producing totem poles and prints and original paintings and jewelry and all that kind of stuff was the medium, but nobody had done fashion. And it was Bill Reed who said, and I talk about this in my book, it was Bill Reed who said very loudly, and he was looking at me and he said, somebody has to incorporate our art into fashion, or you're going to have designers from New York and Paris take the art and do a very bad job. Which happened. And, you know, the piece I'm talking about that appeared on time magazine around 1990, or maybe it was 80, 89, I don't know. But what that did was it gave me fuel in this fire that was just starting to burn in me about pushing the boundaries of Haida art into a new medium of fashion. And that really was the start of it for me. And I had endorsement from all of these artists around me saying, go, you can do this. And so it consumed me for a long time. And I created my mission statement based on Haida philosophy. And I just really move forward with it in a really strong, positive way and committed. Just basically committed my life to it.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And one of the essays in the book tells us that you sat at the heart of what has often been termed the Northwest Coast Revival, which, quote, produced a vibrant, thriving indigenous arts community in the Pacific Northwest, end quote. And the 1980s in particular, proved an incredibly pivotal era for. For the widespread recognition of Pacific Northwest artists in a wide variety of arts, not least of which was fashion, thanks to your decision to enter the world of commercial fashion design. Can you talk about what that was like at that time, being the only designer doing that in that sphere?

[Dorothy Grant]

Well, I wasn't looked at at that point. Neither was I a fashion designer, but I made regalia. I knew how to work sewing machine, and I knew how to sew with the needle and do all those kinds of things. And like I said, I was trained by my maternal grandmother to weave baskets in spruce root. So I was very much enthralled with the women's side of the work in Northwest coast art. So, you know, I wasn't looked at as a master artist at the time, but I was amongst these male artists who were considered masters in their fields. It was pointed out to me that I was not just sitting on the periphery of the table serving them coffee and sandwiches. I was sitting at the table at those conversations and made to be part of that movement of innovation, of fully carrying the work into another medium of fashion. And it was new, it was groundbreaking. And it was scary because I felt I had the principles of my ancestors on my shoulders and because nobody had done any of this before. And we were considered to be very ceremonial kind of people. And our art was, I wouldn't say sacred. Too sacred that it couldn't be used in fashion. But it was a test. It was a test. Is this appropriation or is this creating a new medium or a new tradition? So it was always a step ahead of taking that. That step again, again, and going, yes, I can do this. Yes, it's acceptable, in fact. And then art galleries started to take notice of my work because nobody was doing the kind of cut work and applique of borders. And the whole blanket was designed. And so it just, you know, hit people's attentions. And I started putting my work in galleries. And then when I released my 1989 collection, 55 pieces, we showcased it with the dance group coming out with all the blankets that I had made in this, it's traditional Haida song. And they opened the show for me, and it just created a wave of publicity. We didn't have Internet in 1989. We didn't have websites, we didn't have social media. We didn't have any of that. So everything was done by AP wire and phone calls and faxes. So it was old school, really did old school. Releasing of this collection in a very, very big way. And then right after that, a month after that, I took the collection to Haida Gwaii, to my own people during one of our big annual conventions in skirigate. And I did the very same fashion show there. Got a standing ovation from my people. People were thrilled. In fact, so many of the ladies came to a trunk show after that, after that show, and purchased a lot of my collection. So in a sense, I was endorsed by my own nation. And it just gave me stronger wings to keep going. And that was in January 1990. And I just kept going. It was like one thing after the other. The wave of publicity that happened, I would say, continued for six months. And again, keep in mind that in the 80s, it was a very dismal look for native politics. This was something that was very uplifting and something that was new and positive and something that people could really focus and look at and decide whether that was for them or not. But I just kept going with it. And it was a continuous stream of activities and invitations to open up fashion shows for conferences, to do my own shows in various parts of the world, like New Zealand, and a lot to do in Santa Fe. A lot of shows in Santa Fe that I was part of. So it's almost like it's had a momentum of its own and I just keep rolling with it.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. I was gonna say there's so many fun stories in the book, but one of them is someone's recalling your booth opening at Swaya. And before you can even get the clothes on the racks, people are already purchasing them and pulling them out of salespeople's hands. It's true.

[Dorothy Grant]

Those were exciting times. Yeah.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah.

[Dorothy Grant]

People were waiting and lined up outside my booth, and sometime they were so crowded that people couldn't get into my booth. Yeah. And everybody was saying, there she goes again. She's selling out.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Nordstrom brings you the season's most wanted brands. Skims, Mango Free People, and Princess polly, all under $100. From trending Sneakers to beauty must haves, we've curated the styles you'll wear on repeat this spring. Free shipping, free returns and in store pick pickup. Make it easier than ever. Shop now in stores [e-mail]. i just have to say that for being the pre Internet or early Internet era, you have an incredible amount of documentation of this early part of your career. And something that I particularly love about this book is it is such a rich visual archive and narrative of your journey as an artist and designer. And it features some of the very first pieces you created, including those hand woven spruce root hats you mentioned, but also your very first fashion pieces that you created while a student at the Helen Lefo School of Fashion Design, where you studied from 1987 to 1988. And I just want to point out that just one year later, you would launch your sensational debut feastwear collection that you just spoke to, which is just remarkable. But I just want to back it up a bit. And I was hoping that you could talk about these formative years at design school and maybe describe one or two of these early pieces for us.

[Dorothy Grant]

One of the second garments I did was the eagle bolero and big form line full circle skirt in cashmere wool. And I remember back in the day that when I cut the artwork, I actually sewed the work by hand. It was hand stitched, not machine applique. And I still have that piece and it's actually in the book. But going to fashion design school was important for me because it helped me to get into a system of drawing on body figures and template type things. And I became, I think, good at illustrating what I wanted to make. And that's what fashion design school was good for me for getting the ideas onto paper. But what I designed was this skirt that had this huge T shape, we call it in high art form, like a tertiary shape that came right down the middle of the skirt and it was like a great big tee, but curved along the hemline with about a 4 inch border. And I called it the T Forum full circle skirt with the eagle bolero. And so when I looked at fashion, I didn't see anything that had seam lines sewn right in as the form line.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And it's this incredibly beautiful black and red number in very graphic, very bold colors and bold graphics and dress. Listeners, we will of course be posting, with Dorothy's permission, images of these on our Instagram, so you can see for yourself. And can you talk about this early period, say the 1990s for you, what that was like coming into your own as a fashion designer in this new sphere?

[Dorothy Grant]

Yeah, well, I was an anomaly in the fashion world here in, in Vancouver. I remember taking my portfolio and I had this huge portfolio from the 55 pieces that I made to a real fine store in downtown Vancouver, thinking maybe she would host or take on my line for me and help to sell it. And she looked at my work and she just said to me, dorothy, you need a boutique of your own. Your work is so unique and so incredibly culture. It's not mainstream fashion. You need a place of your own. And she said it in such a way that maybe. Oh, okay, maybe it's true. In those days, it's like you had to make your own path, you had to have your own store or you're going to trade shows. And it was difficult. And long story short, eventually, about three years later, I'm sitting in my own boutique, my own physically designed Haida inspired boutique in downtown vancouver. And it's 1400 square feet. We had it designed to look like the inside of a longhouse, but in a Very sort of almost Japanese haikyuu kind of look. It was spotless, impeccable wardrobes that look like bentwood boxes, dressing room doors with carved panels on them. You walked in and you had this feeling like you were really coming into a real modern longhouse. And I operated that store for eight years, and it taught me a lot about the retail and the fashion business. I had to keep three seasons going. I employed about eight people, and for a new designer to just bite off that much was huge. It's amazing. I didn't get bowled under, but I could have because we were always seeming to go through recessions or really times in retail. And like I said, there was no social media. We had to take out $5,000 ads and magazines to get the word out, you know.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And you had a team working with you who you highlight in the book and introduce us to. Can you also introduce us to some of your early clients who supported you in your venture?

[Dorothy Grant]

My story came, you know, with big header Dorothy granite over the door in a very nice public building downtown. It became a symbol of pride for native people. So Native people from across the country, even coming across the border, heard about my store. You know how Moccasin Telegraph goes. Everybody wanted to come to my store. So my own people, first nations people from across Turtle island, would come and they would buy stuff, so that supported us. And then there were politicians who were needing to look the part of working with indigenous people. They needed to look the part so they would come in. And at the time, I was making a lot of menswear, and I made a lot of suits in the 90s, the early 90s were all about the power suit. Remember that?

[Cassidy Zachary]

Right. I would love if you could talk about the power suit, because your power suits are pretty well known from this period.

[Dorothy Grant]

It was really about people feeling their identity. And I gave them that okay to feel that pride in clothing when they would buy it. They felt like they were walking. They could walk into a door, in a courtroom or in a meeting room or a black tie event. They felt that they could walk in with a certain amount of power within themselves. And I think I provided that through my clothing. Well, that's what they say, and it's true. So my clothing became, to a lot of people, that symbol of transformation and pride. And so when you have that kind of effect, word of mouth is your best advertising. And that's really how I survived in those earlier years, was because my quality was there, my sense of fitting and materials and application of artwork, it all tied together it all worked as a beautiful symphony, and people gravitated to it. That's how I survived.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And now I'd like to turn to some of the specific garments featured so beautifully in the book. Almost everything in the book comes with a story attached, so you really provide us insights into the symbolism behind a garment or the impetus behind its creation. And in the book, you write that my DNA as a designer is infusing Haida art into fashion.

[Dorothy Grant]

Yes. And you're right. Every picture of a garment has a story that I wrote. So I wrote every. The description of every garment in my book, because every garment has a story and an inspiration or an essence of timing of where I was or people I was around that inspired that particular garment. So when I wrote the text for the book and I would look at the photograph, I literally had to go back in space and time to what that mood was, to where I was and who I was with. And that's where the memories came up. When I say that my DNA as a designer, if I can explain that, it's okay. So when you see a whole bunch of Chanel garments and you've seen them all your life, you get this sense of how the design house has a certain philosophy and way of designing. For instance, hers was black and white and pearls and beautiful knit fabrics and short jackets. And so that was the DNA of a Chanel look. My DNA for my work is the balance that I use Haida art with on a garment and how it accentuates the body, in essence, and not making the artwork take over the body and make it so that the artwork flows within the garment and on the person. And so it's not overwhelming. So I think for me, that, in essence, is how I talk about that my DNA in clothing, and something else.

[Cassidy Zachary]

That I thought was also really beautiful and is repeated throughout the book as well, is how the core tenant, or the core value of your brand, your position. Part of your DNA, I'm sure, is. Is respect. And there's a beautiful Haida word for that that is really embodied in everything you do and your entire process as a designer. And I thought that was really a beautiful thing to share with us about your work and an insight into what you do.

[Dorothy Grant]

Yes. That word is in Hydra, Yagu Dang. And yagudang really was a core center of my philosophy, my vision, and I made it a mission to incorporate that within my company, within the people who worked for me and how they approached people. In essence, what yagudang means is to have respect for oneself and for all that surrounds you, which means everybody and everything, so that you respect it. No matter if it's a dog or, you know, a group of people, There's a sense of respect. And I put that into my clothing. I put that into. When I'm cutting artwork, it's. I must cut this artwork exactly as the template is, because I'm respecting the artwork, and if it's a collaborative piece, I'm respecting that other artist. So Yagudang is that essence that goes through every piece of work that I've done. And I think it shows, too, in the way that people, when they put the garment on, how it elevates them, how it just makes them feel like they can walk through any door and feel like they can. They own the garment and the garment's not owning them.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And that's really evident throughout the book, too, from 1989, when we see your first images all the way up into the present day, for sure. I'd love to talk a little bit more about the way that your garments are in conversation with your culture. The subtitle of the book is An Endless Thread, and that's one of the narrative themes throughout the book that we learn about is the conversations that your pieces have with your culture and cultural dress practices. You're continuing in a very long line of people who have created fashion and dressed the body. And there's really beautiful stories in here about the history of the Haida people and their engagement with European colonizers beginning in the 17th century and how they used fashion and the body as an expressive form of resistance, resilience. Would you like to talk a little bit more about that?

[Dorothy Grant]

The other thing that I was determined to do from the very onset of this vision of creating fashion and blazing this path was really about decolonizing the way we are perceived as indigenous people in the sense of our intelligence, our artwork, our customs, our ways of being. I wanted this clothing line to be able to decolonize the way people thought about us. And so I was a decolonizer way back in the 80s, and now it's a thing.

[Cassidy Zachary]

A lot more mainstream conversation, which is fantastic.

[Dorothy Grant]

Yeah. But I've been doing that now for 40 years, and it's been a mission, and it's hit the right ears. It's hitting accord with people. It's brought me all over the world to share this with other indigenous cultures like the Maoris. I've gone down there and done fashion shows. It's hit a chord, and I think I was at the brink. I was at the very beginning of this period, unbeknownst to me at the time, I just kept moving with it because I felt this urgency, this need to decolonize. I talk about this one garment in the book, and it's the raven swing coat and how I could put myself back into, like, 1850s, when the fur trader captains came off their clipper ships to Haida Gwaii and landed on the beach or the docks, and they came off in these great voluminous caped coats called the Reddington coats, or they sometimes called them the great coats. And they were these raincoats, but they had these huge capes that came over the shoulders of these long black coats. And the Haida people would give up their chilkat blankets, would give up their woven spruce root hats to have one of these coats. It became a prized possession. And by the way, I did make a raven greatcoat. It's in the book. During that time when we were a task in design school to make a historic garment, I picked a raven Reddington coat to make for my class. But I put Haida artwork all over that outer cape and called it the raven great coat. Now, I only made three of them, and they're now all in museum institutions, but it was like I was putting myself on that dock where those people first saw the fur traders, the white people, coming off in those coats. I put myself on that dock. What did that feel like? Fast forward up until now, where I'm making the raven swing coat and I'm putting the parallel together of feeling. And now it's the other side of culture that wants that coat from me, wants the raven swing coat that I put artwork on the front. And it just. It makes a statement. But people want to identify with that and feel that sense of power or transformation or that. Or they just love the beauty of it. So it's a real contrast, but it's a real step forward for me to see that.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And, I mean, I guess we didn't mention this earlier. Perhaps it goes without saying, but when you entered the more mainstream fashion, you went from making ceremonial garments to opening your own fashion line. Your fashion line was for everyone. Right. So there were people from your culture, but also people outside of your culture who are embracing what you were doing and wearing it as well. So that's what you're talking about when you're saying the. The roles have switched.

[Dorothy Grant]

Exactly. I. I didn't make a distinction that. That it should just be for a Haida people or indigenous people. It was made for anybody who really understood and appreciated my work and the artwork. It wasn't about appropriation either. Back then, people would say, can anybody wear your garments? And I said, absolutely. If you love it and you want to swing around in my swing coat at some event, you're more than welcome to because it's sharing height of art and it's supporting an artist. It isn't any different from buying a really beautiful piece of carved jewelry from an artist. It really isn't any different.

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[Cassidy Zachary]

To something you've touched on a couple times now where you talked about being at the forefront of starting this conversation about decolonizing. Right. And shifting the narratives, those traditional narratives. And something you mentioned was the way that indigenous people are perceived. And one of those kind of traditional narratives is that indigenous people are stuck in the past and that there's this idea that indigenous design and fashion should look a certain way. And you actually have this story in the book about a garment that you submitted, and I'm hoping you'll share it with us to a museum jury that was rejected because they thought it was store bought and it didn't fit into their little box about what an indigenous designer could create. Do you want to share that story with us?

[Dorothy Grant]

Yeah, I know it's one of the stories. I wondered if I should put it in the book. But I put it in because other indigenous designers should know that they need to stand their ground and speak up when their work is being challenged and questioned. I did submit this Chilkat jacket and so I have a factory, a little workshop where my sea interest is cut and sew everything. We do everything in house for the feast for label. And we had this jacket that I entered in and I thought it was quite beautiful. We did the pattern, we did the cut work, sewing, everything, submitted it. And yeah, they said it was just too perfect to be native made. She must have went out and bought the garment and then put the artwork on it. When I heard that, I just, I had to hold it together because I had to be in public and be nice. But I was fuming. I was fuming. And I had told somebody this during this event, and she said, please, Dorothy, write to the director just what you told me. And so I did. And this is long gone as the days where we're just made up of beads and feathers and fringe. We come from a culture where we are dignified, where. Where we know how to make first class garments, where we do everything by hand, where we design things based on our culture and not on a stereotypical look that you think we should be. I just had to. I had to say it. And since then, all the jurying changed.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. I was going to say in. Yeah. In the wake of that, I would say, and especially this is a conversation Amber, Don and I have had repeatedly on the show, too, when talking about indigenous fashion. And the landscape today is challenging these misconceptions. Right. If an indigenous designer is making it, then it is an indigenous design. And you are at the forefront of that conversation, clearly. Yeah. And that leads me into one of my last questions today, because I am so excited that you are going to be one of several designers showcasing at the first ever Native Fashion Week Santa Fe this May. And Santa Fe, as you know, as you are foundational to, has become a thriving epicenter of indigenous fashion talent. And of course, thanks in no small part to designers like yourself who've laid that foundation for many of these designers. And I'm just wondering if you would share what that means to you, especially looking back with this monograph over your career and how far you've come, what it means to you to show at Native Fashion Week or a similar. A similar event today.

[Dorothy Grant]

Well, you know, I have done seemingly hundreds of fashion shows. A lot of them joint with other designers and organizations and all over the world, and a lot of my own singular fashion shows. And it's always uplifting and working with young people and seeing the models and feeling that exhilaration after it's all done. It's an indescribable feeling of accomplishment, honor, and just feeling really good and positive. And you can see that effect on the models that come off the Runway. I'm excited because I feel like, yes, I am the pioneer. I'm the elder kind of designer now. All these young people coming up to me and just wanting to express themselves and tell stories. It's wonderful. I just. I feel like I stand in a place of encouraging them. Keep moving.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And the book writes about how you've moved into a mentorship role at this point in your life as well.

[Dorothy Grant]

Yeah, I enjoy it. I'm teaching a lot of my skills to communities that bring me in and we do four day workshops on pat making and design. And I'm also writing a curriculum right now based on my 40 year experiences to teach in universities. And it's all about design. It's all about our culture, our design, how we can innovate and keep things going within our culture and share it with the rest of the world in a way that's very positive.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Dorothy, this has been such a pleasure talking to you dress listeners. You're going to have to go out and get your hands on this book. If you will not be joining me in May in Santa Fe for a live fashion show of Dorothy's work. Dorothy, thank you so much.

[Dorothy Grant]

Oh, thank you, Cassidy. It's been a pleasure. And we'll meet up soon.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And dress listeners, let me assure you that you have just only heard a fraction of the incredible multitude of stories quite literally sewn into the scenes of each and every piece of Dorothy's work. And many of these stories are shared in her wonderful book, Dorothy Grant An Endless Thread. And that includes this beautiful story that Dorothy shared to accompany a dress entitled Raven Takes the World, which is a hand painted white deerskin hide, a wedding dress that debuted in her 1994 Gold Label collection and was created in honor of her mother. And this dress was presented in this beautiful ceremony on the Runway. It brought tears to the audience. It brought tears to myself reading about it 40 years later. It's bringing tears to my eyes now. So just again, this is just such an incredible testament to her life and work.

[April Callahan]

Yes. And needless to say, we highly recommend getting your hands on Dorothy Grant An Endless Thread to learn more about Dorothy's life, work and the myriad of inspiring ways her clothing is in connection with her Haida culture. Dorothy's essays and stories in the book are joined by that of different Haida cultural specialists, museum curators, friends and clients who helped put Dorothy's work in a cultural and historical context. And we'll of course put a link to the book in our show notes, as well as to Dorothy's Instagram, which is Dorothy Grant Studio and her website, Dorothy Grant.com and dress listeners, I hope.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I might see some of you at Native Fashion Week Santa Fe next week. This is not to be confused with Swaya Native Fashion Week, of course, which is also happening at the same time and which I will also be at. And so Swaya, or the Southwestern association for Indian Arts and their annual fashion shows that accompany Swaya's annual Santa Fe Indian Market in August has of course been something April. We have covered for years at this point on the show in interviews with the show's visionary producer, Amber Dawn Bare Robe, who has been a guest many times. And Amber dawn has been instrumental in cultivating Santa Fe as a world fashion capital of indigenous design talent. So much so that she was the driving force behind launching Swaya's first ever Native Fashion Week last year in 2024. But this year she has embarked on a new adventure, a new path, and she has launched these standalone Native Fashion Week Santa Fe and will be joining us on Friday to tell us all about it.

[April Callahan]

Well, that does it for us today. Dress Sisters. You will find all the exciting visual content connected to this week's episodes at the hashtag on Instagram and social media dressed 536 and dressed 537 until next time, may you consider the endless threads that connect you to the past, present and future of your closet. Next time you get dressed, please head over to Rest Podcast on Instagram or on Facebook to check out the visual content associated with each week's episodes.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Remember, we love hearing from you dress listeners, so if you'd like to write to us, you can do so@hello dresshistory.com dressedhistory.com is also our website where you can sign up for our monthly newsletter, our in person tours and online fashion history courses. And there you can also check out whatever else we have up our finely tailored sleeves.

[April Callahan]

We get so many questions from you all about our recommendations for fashion history books, so if you're interested you can always find a link in our show notes to our bookshop.org bookshelf so that address is bookshop.org shop dressed and there you will find over 100, 150 of our favorite fashion history titles.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Do you love Dressed but want to skip the ads? We are so excited to now be a part of the Airwave Network and their premium ad free history subscription Airwave History plus and this is available on Apple Podcasts and the subscription brings you our podcast as well as 27 other popular history podcasts ad free for 5.99 per month. More information is available at the link in our bio.

[April Callahan]

Thank you as always for tuning in and more Dressed coming your way soon. The History of Fashion is a production of Dressed Media.

[E]

Hey everyone, it's Dan Souza from America's Test Kitchen. I'm super excited to let you all know that we're launching a new video podcast that takes you behind the scenes into the messy, imperfect but riveting day to day life right here in our Test kitchen. Not only do I get to talk to my colleagues about the latest taste.

[Dorothy Grant]

Test they attended, I just came from.

[Cassidy Zachary]

A tasting of salted caramel apple pie bars and then roasted garlic. So I apologize.

[E]

Or about a recipe they're developing.

[Cassidy Zachary]

The thing about this recipe is it's a secret. The restaurateur refuses to tell people what her secret ingredients are.

[E]

We also chat with amazing guests from the culinary world and beyond. The lamest joke I've ever said, I said to Marie Mambert.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Great.

[Ryan Reynolds]

It's the great workout.

[E]

Thanks. Make sure to subscribe to in the Test Kitchen so you don't miss an episode. You can watch in the Test Kitchen on YouTube and Spotify and listen to it wherever you get your podcasts. Can't wait to see you in the Test Kitchen.