← Dressed: The History of Fashion
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- [00:02]
eBay Spokesperson
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- [00:30]
State Farm Spokesperson
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. You might say all kinds of stuff when things go wrong, but these are the words you really need to remember. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. They've got options to fit your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk to your agent to choose the coverage you need. Have coverage options to protect the things you value most, File a claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person when you need to talk to someone. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
- [01:00]
Cassidy Zachary
The history of fashion is a production of dressed media. With over 8 billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day, we all get dressed.
- [01:15]
April Callahan
Welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast that explores the who, what, when of why we wear. We are friends, fashion historians and your hosts, April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary.
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Cassidy Zachary
Well, hello, dress listeners. Hello, April.
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April Callahan
Hi, Cass. Hello from afar. Because actually we were just in person quite recently.
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Cassidy Zachary
Yes, we were. And that is actually why we are here, dress listeners, because we are so excited to tell you all about our recent New York City day tours. And when we say these were jam packed, they were jam packed. So much so that I was like, oh, we'll do one episode. And then it's like, actually, no, we're gonna have to make this a two parter because we have so much fashion history and fashion history content to share with you today.
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April Callahan
Yes, this day tour happened, let's see, a couple weeks ago. And each day of these tours is a completely different itinerary. And when we do these New York tours, because so many of our listeners might potentially live in New York or they have friends that they can stay with in New York, we create them as individual days with separate itineraries. And people can book the day. You can book one, you can book two, you can book all three, you can book day one and three. Do as you like.
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Cassidy Zachary
Mix, mix and match separates, as you always say. Yeah. And this one was particularly fun because not only was it only the second ever time we've done this.
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April Callahan
Well, New York, New York.
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Cassidy Zachary
Yes. We had a whole cohort of people who joined us in our recent Paris 2024 trip come to New York. So really, that was just so special and it really speaks to the community that dress has built and continues to build throughout these events. So we really enjoy doing this and meeting some of our listeners in person.
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April Callahan
And not just the 2024 Paris trip. We actually had people from past Paris trips also, so they got to meet all the other Paris, Paris people.
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Cassidy Zachary
So, yeah, yeah. And it's such a treat because, as we always say, we're behind the microphone, especially me in New Mexico. I don't often get to meet a lot of our listeners in person. So this is always just so fun and so special. And this trip was no exception. And this one was really, as I said, jam packed, but also really cool because we had not one, not two, but eight past dressed guests who joined us throughout. And they weren't attendees of the tour, they were people we actually visited throughout our various festivities. So that was really special and many of whom you will hear from today.
- [03:39]
April Callahan
Our trip on day one was spent entirely at the Fashion Institute of Technology, where we got a deep dive into their incredible collections. Some of you may remember that I was a curator there in Special collections for nearly 12 years. So that was one of the things that we did that day. But we got up to lots of other fun things as well.
- [04:01]
Cassidy Zachary
And I actually just want to say the Fashion Institute for and many of you, if you've been listening to the show for a long time, know this. The Fashion Institute of Technology is where April and I both went to school. We both got our master's there at separate times in the Fashion Museum Studies program. But that's also where April and I actually first met and as I love to say, bonded, fell in love over our shared love of fashion plates. So it was particularly special to start this tour at the Special Collections department where you and I first met. And April took us on a journey through some of her favorite pieces throughout the collection in April. I'm so excited to share that experience with our listeners. Can you tell us first, more about the significance of the special collections at fit? Because this is really one of the most significant, most important fashion collections in the world. Can you tell us more about it?
- [04:54]
April Callahan
Sure. So I will say this first, Special Collections is distinct from the museum at fit. They are two totally different departments. Technically speaking, Special Collections is part of the library at fit, but it is where all of the very, very rare, important and valuable fashion ephemera and other associated design materials live that are mainly paper based. One of the things for Instance that we looked at on our tour was a document pertaining to fashion that was from during the middle of the French Revolution. It was from 1795. And basically that document was issued by the national assembly, basically being like, hey, you guys are infighting about what everybody can wear. You all can wear whatever you want as long as it's appropriate for your gender. But these are the types of primary source materials that are so rare and so special that is held there. And the collection holds about 10,000 rare books, 500 different magazine titles dating back again to the 18th century, as well as original works of art on paper, original sketches, fashion illustrations, et cetera, et cetera. So it is amazing.
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Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. And I will say I did intern there. That's how April and I met, because April was working on her first book about fashion plates. And obviously Spark holds an incredible collection of fashion plates. But I would, when I was interning, turning there and I'd go back in what we call the stacks, I would literally just take something off the shelf and open it and just be gobsmacked by whatever was revealed to me in that box. And one of those things is pochoa, those hand stenciling fashion plates, which, again, April and I, I'm sure, you know, dress listeners, wrote a book on the significance of pochoa and fashion illustration in the golden age of fashion illustration in the teens and twenties. And April selected several of these supreme examples to share with us. Les Chose du Pauperre, illustrated by Georges Lepape. So our listeners got to see that in person, which was incredibly special. And if you have not seen Peshwa in person, it's like looking at a painting. It has the most beautiful, bold color palettes, and it just really brings fashion to life in a way that you just had not previously ever seen in the history of fashion illustration.
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April Callahan
Yeah, it was extremely trendy in the 1910s and the 1920s in luxury publications.
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Cassidy Zachary
We should say, not a cheap technique.
- [07:24]
April Callahan
Very expensive, and it involved hand stenciling. So, yes, you can check out our book Fashion on Art of if you'd like to learn more.
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Cassidy Zachary
And what are some other highlights, April? One of my personal favorites, for sure. And I think this was maybe the second thing you shared with us were the fashion plates from Galerie de Mode. Can you tell us about the significance of that publication? Because that is so special.
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April Callahan
Yeah. So Galerie des Modes was first published in 1778, and then it ran through 1787. So it's capturing those years when Marie Antoinette was queen of France. And right before the revolution, when Fashion was at its high artifice. Like, we're talking those insane poofs and the giant panniers. And this is a series of fashion plates that were issued by a publisher in Paris. They originally came in sets of six that documented what people were wearing at the Quarter Versailles and also in the most fashionable sections of Paris. So I always like to say it's like an 18th century street style blog, because these were actual records of what people were wearing. And you could subscribe to it to receive these prints in the mail. And it was not a fashion magazine per se. It didn't have articles, it didn't have anything. But this is how you kept up to date with the latest Parisian fashions. And there's hundreds of them. Hundreds.
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Cassidy Zachary
And they're so charming. And so we got to see those in person, which was really special. And I have to say, one of the most surprising things that you pulled out and showed us were the geisha calling cards. I was not expecting those at all. But again, so beautiful little pieces of art in and of themselves.
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April Callahan
Yeah. And just to say, I would venture to guess that the repository at FIT Special Collections is probably like one of the top three repositories anywhere in the world for fashion related materials. But that doesn't mean that the collection doesn't contain things that apply to the rest of the school, because it's now a full fledged design school. So that also might apply to graphic design and stuff like that, which is why I pulled out the geisha calling cards. And they're so beautiful. There's tiny little. They almost look like product labels. But they're also, again, woodblock print. So beautiful. Probably dating to the 1920s. Also, I want to say, so many of you who joined us on the trip remarked on the etiquette books that I pulled out because so many of you have been fans of those etiquette rituals of days gone by episodes.
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Cassidy Zachary
They're so fascinating.
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April Callahan
One of them I pulled out is called Shooting for Ladies.
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Cassidy Zachary
Yeah.
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April Callahan
And it's from the nineteen teens. It's from like nineteen eleven. And it's about the etiquette of shooting a gun as a woman and what you should wear while doing so. So if you want to talk about.
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Cassidy Zachary
Niche, it really, really was so fun and so special. And you too, dress listeners can make an appointment if you have a specific research interest. You can make an appointment and they will pull out pieces for you if you know what you're looking for.
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April Callahan
Yes, yes, yes, yes. You just have to make an appointment in advance and let them know what it is that you would like to see. Speaking of letting us know what people want to see, Cass, you took us on an incredible visit to the museum at FIT's study collection. Do you want to talk about that?
- [10:40]
Cassidy Zachary
So this is actually a really special experience that you only can get with us unless you are a student at the Fashion Institute of Technology. But essentially, we went into the study collection at the museum at fit, which is a collection that is really special because not only does it highlight significant moments of fashion history beginning, I think the oldest thing they have is maybe the 1840s, but you can handle it. So these are garments that are meant to be touched. They're meant to be examined. They're meant for students in particular, people interested in how things are constructed. And it really is this rare opportunity to be able to handle these really historic pieces. And so I chose a theme which was in line with the class I am about to teach and that I am going to rep here, which is what women wore to the revolution. 100 plus years of transformative fashion coming your way in May dress listeners. And in that class, I'm going to be looking at the evolution and revolution of women's fashion from the 1850s to the 1920s. This is part one. I do go all the way to the 60s, but this is such a pivotal era in women's fashion. It is incredible when you look, and we did over the course of an hour at how drastic the changes in women's fashion from the 1850s all the way up to the 1960s were. Right, April?
- [11:58]
April Callahan
Yes. It's just remarkable. And not just a silhouette, but even in materials. Right.
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Cassidy Zachary
And so it was really special. We started with a crinoline gown from the 1850s with those wide, expansive skirts. We then went into the bustle era, into the turn of the century era and the last stronghold of that corset. Right. And then we looked at that transition that happened beginning in the pre war era and then into World War I. But something that was really special. And past dress guest Raisa Britannia is the one who oversees the study collection. They have a really expansive collection. And I think I chose. I don't even know. I think I chose maybe 30 pieces. But during that selection process, we came across this Lucille garment, which, April, I don't know if you want to talk about a little bit more. It was dated a little earlier than I thought it looked. And so we started talking about it. Then we looked at the label, and we had a really, aha moment. That was really cool.
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April Callahan
Fashion history, sleuthing. Happened in real time.
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Cassidy Zachary
Yes.
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April Callahan
This dress, which was previously dated to be 1914, had a label in it that said Lucille. And it was the graphics of Lucille Lady Duff Gordon's Custom Salon here in New York. But it had a little addition to it that said Staff underneath and then the address underneath it. And we were so curious about this. We weren't exactly sure. But of course, what did I do? I jump on the Internet and I go down an archival rabbit hole, and I found all of these articles in Women's Wear Daily that were from the early 1920s, basically saying that Lucille's Custom Salon in New York had gone out of business circa 1921, 1922. But members of her staff, Lucille Staff, had reorganized into a completely separate entity and were continuing to design in the loot in the Lucille style starting in 1924. We realized that is what exactly what this dress was. And it was Evelyn McWhorter who was the designer, the main designer then. And we were able to redate the dress. It was 10 years off in the original catalog record because Lucille Staff didn't even exist until 1924. We have the original announcements in Women's Wear Daily. That was like a little fun side jaunt that we went on.
- [14:20]
Cassidy Zachary
And if you take my class, dress listeners, many of you already have, but if you take this class, you will learn to tell the difference in silhouette. Because if you do look at this dress and you look at the hemline and the waistline, you notice that it has more features from the 1920s than the early 1910s. But that was a really fun discovery. And then we went into the 20s and looked at kind of those quintessential silk and bugle bead dresses into the 1930s bias cut silhouette. And then, of course, into the 1940s and 1950s is when we started seeing designer names that people would recognize. And again, that's what's so special about this experience. And of course, we will do this again, if not this year, then next year. But we got a handle. Clothing by Gilbert Adrian, by Pierre Balmain, by Claire McCardell, by Christian Dior. And my. One of my particular favorite pieces, and I don't know if you have any, April was getting to handle a Madame Gray gown in person, which was just so cool. Now, it was built for a child. I think the waist was like 22 inches, which was just bananas. But getting to see her pleading technique in person up close was really cool.
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April Callahan
Yeah. And we just want to stress here, this is the study collection. So these particular examples of these garments are in not so great condition. Right. There's a reason why they have been relegated for the students to learn from.
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Cassidy Zachary
Yes. So don't cut your pearls. They're not supreme examples for museums.
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April Callahan
We have shattering silk like the linings and the bodices are like falling apart. But that was really cool. And also one of the things that we got to do too, which was also supremely special, is we got to see a Fortuny Delphos gown that lives in the study collection as well.
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Cassidy Zachary
Yes. And more on that in an upcoming episode, just FYI. So we won't dig into that here, but yes. So that is the type of experience and that's what we spent our morning doing, was engaging with these really rare examples of fashion ephemera and fashion dress art. So that was always such a joy. So thank you Raisa and the museum.
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April Callahan
At fit, and also a big thank you to everybody at Special Collections as well. The missing child is Lucia Blix, 9 years old.
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Cassidy Zachary
Please let her come back home safely.
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April Callahan
Thursdays the kidnappers plundit meticulously.
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Cassidy Zachary
If money is what it takes to get her back, we're gonna pay it.
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- [17:00]
Cassidy Zachary
The mother's hiding something. I know it. To find her, tell me where she is. The stolen girl. New episodes Thursdays stream on Hulu.
- [17:09]
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- [18:13]
April Callahan
So after that, everybody went off to a leisurely lunch. But then we returned back to the museum at fit, where we got a private curator led tour of the exhibition, which has now since closed only a couple days ago, as of a couple days ago. But it was called Fashioning Wonder, A Cabinet of Curiosities. And that was curated by past guest Dr. Colleen Hill. And if any of you are unfamiliar with this term, Cabinet of Curiosities, sometimes you also might see them referred to as Wunderkammer. But essentially they were they could be actual cabinets, like a piece of casement furniture. It could be an entire room. But they were collections assembled usually by private collectors. And in many ways they're thought to be the precursor to the modern museum. So these collectors were gathering things from all over the world. They could contain anything under the sun that particular collector deemed worthy. They could have a lot of botanical and biological specimens. It could have ancient coins, they could have decorative art objects, musical instruments, tools. Nothing was really off limits here. We have already done a two part episode with Colleen about this because her exhibition was based on the examples of fashion and dress that were commonly found in these cabinet of Curiosities, some of which date all the way back to the early 16th century and then also.
- [19:41]
Cassidy Zachary
Just fashion's engagement in conversation with the art of collecting and those kind of concepts, theoretical concepts. What were some of your favorite pieces? It was a fantastic tour. Thank you so much, Colleen. She is now the senior curator at the museum at fit, and she's been on our show previously to discuss one of her other passions, 90s fashion. But I just want to say congratulations, Colleen, on this exhibition because this really was exceptional. It was such a cool experience to get a walk through and see all the different layers. And you know that I love miniature things and there were so many miniature things to enjoy. What were some of your favorites, April?
- [20:24]
April Callahan
Oh, gosh, I have a few. One of my favorite things was actually something that Colleen and I talked about in her episode and it was in this section called what Is It? Because one of these things of the Cabinet of Curiosity, sometimes people were collecting objects that they didn't know much about. They were collecting literally items of curiosity. What is it? So there was this whole section in the exhibition called what is it where they put forth objects that were unusual or hard to understand. But they covered the exhibition label and then you could flip it up and then learn more about it. But one of my favorite objects was a Victorian silver filigree posy holder. Basically, it was like a little brooch that you could wear on your garment that you would put actual fresh flowers in.
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Cassidy Zachary
Love that.
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April Callahan
But you don't really. It's hard to read what its purpose was originally, but I think my top favorite thing in the entire exhibition is actually an Alexander McQueen piece. It was in the section called Kunstkammer. So it was about the intersection of art in these particular cabinet of curiosities. And the. It's a blazer, essentially. It's a McQueen Blazer. It's very tailored. But the motif that's featured in the textile is a reproduction of the Garden of Earthly Delights.
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Cassidy Zachary
Yes.
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April Callahan
And. But the thing is, it's not printed, it's woven.
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Cassidy Zachary
Amazing.
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April Callahan
Which is mind blowing. So that was another favorite special, too.
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Cassidy Zachary
Because that was the last collection he was working on when he passed away, right? Was that collection. Yeah.
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April Callahan
And I think I just want to mention one last thing. One of my other favorite objects is in the jewelry section where they did something really interesting in the exhibition design, where there was some sort of tactile interactions between the visitors and some of the objects. And in this case, there were drawers that you were supposed to pull out so you could see these jewelry pieces that were encased below. But did you see that snake necklace from the 1970s, late 1970s, early 1980s. It was like costume jewelry, but jewel encrusted. And it's oh, so me. And it's oh, so disco. I would. If there was one piece that I would have made my way out of that exhibition with, which of course I would never do, but that would have.
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Cassidy Zachary
Been it in the fantasy world. Somebody posted recently. I don't know who it was. Somebody tagged us in a post and they were like, I love how April and Cassidy have dressed. Podcasts go back in time to fantasy events and. Or wear fantasy fashions, because I think that's something we all fantasize about. Right. And that's why the imagination is wonderful. One can dream.
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April Callahan
Now that I've told you about some of my favorite pieces, what are some of your favorite pieces?
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Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. There are so many wonderful elements of it, and it was such a delight for the senses. I will say Colleen was really thoughtful and she explained that one section where you walk up to this area and I think it has five or six dresses. It's the trump l'oeil section. But the light kept coming on and off. And I don't know if there was a like text that necessarily explained it, but because we were with Colleen, she did explain it to us and it was essentially like sensory. Maybe you can explain it better than me, but what I remember her talking about was the sensory deprivation of it. Right. So you expect to see something and you don't. And then when light does come on and you do have this experience to engage with these objects, you see, how is it different? How are you interacting with it? How does it change your understanding and engagement with the ensembles? And that happened to be the trump loy section. So things that aren't necessarily what they appear. And there were some really lovely pieces in there, including this Byron Lars union suit. I don't know how else to explain it. It's these short knit, black button front little suit and the mannequin's legs are in it. But then the top looks like it's almost flat, like it's being hung on a clothing line. And that effect is emphasized by the fact that there's actually clothespins on top of it. So I just thought that was really playful and fun. So I really enjoyed that section. As I mentioned, there's miniatures galore. Colleen and I share a love of miniatures. There's a miniature corset which was just.
- [24:34]
April Callahan
It's like maybe like 4 or 5 inches tall.
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Cassidy Zachary
Right? It's not. Yeah, it's not big. And it's so charming and lovely. And then I have to say one of my favorite sections was specimens. And that section text started with this Olivier Sillard quote. And it says, quote, our fashion victims, odd little animals to be pinned like butterflies and framed in the history of fashion. Which I just love imagining that. And then the section text talks about how cabinets of curiosities regularly house specimens of animal, vegetable, mineral varieties. Goes on to say numerous objects featured here highlight fashion's long standing fascination with the natural world. And there's this one particular case and it's gotten a lot of press. I think you see it a lot in association with this exhibition. Cause it's such a lovely relationship of objects that are all different but really speak to each other. There's this Elsa Peretti shell leather purse that is insane. And it's next to this spiky Sean Lane collar necklace. And then I think this was one of our. Both of our favorites was this lovely, exceptionally beautiful coiled fortuny gown resembling a shell, which is just lovely. And that was next to this open fan imprinted with a butterfly. So just such incredible exhibition design. Such a unique and fabulous concept. Unfortunately it is now closed. But yes, thank you.
- [26:02]
April Callahan
You can tune back into our two part episode to learn lots more. So we might be going a smidge out of order here in terms of the days, but day three of our tour was actually six spent entirely at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, which is obviously one of everybody's favorite stops when they're here in New York City. And we had not one, not two, but three private tours cast. Do you want to talk a little bit about our special? Well, we had two special guests that.
- [26:33]
Cassidy Zachary
Day, two special past dress guests, of course, one of whom was a person who was one of our very first interviews on the podcast I think in 2018. She also is one of I think a very small handful of interviews April and I actually did together in person in studio. And I am talking about Dr. Colleen Darnell who if you do not follow her dress listeners, she is vintage Egyptologist on the socials. She is a renowned Egyptologist, author, educator, media personality, model and she led us on a very special fascinating tour into fascinating tour and look into the dress practices of one of history's most captivating civilizations, the ancient Egyptians. And it this tour spanned thousands of years, political dynasties, and her tour was tailored exclusively for our audience, which was equally special. And Colleen truly has an encyclopedic knowledge on this topic and she is so engaging and that is evidenced by this clip that I'm going to share with you from our 2018 interview with her. Let's listen in now.
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April Callahan
You've mentioned, I think a couple of times, women acting in men's roles and correct me if I'm wrong, but there was at least one female pharaoh. Is that correct?
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G
There was. There were in fact a number during Egyptian history, three major ones in the Pharaonic period up until Cleopatra vii, the final Ptolemaic ruler of Egypt who commits suicide in 30 BCE rather than being dragged back in chains to Rome. The most famous and appropriate for the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York is the female pharaoh Hatshepsut. And she's fascinating because in her art she starts out very obviously feminine. So she has a female body, she is wearing a dress, she's wearing a crown appropriate to a queen because she was the wife of the previous pharaoh and when her husband dies, his successor is still quite young. And after about seven years of rule she becomes co king with this young pharaoh, Thutmose iii. And in her art she transitions from this Female queen becoming more androgynous, having pink skin because women traditionally had yellow skin, men had red skin. So she's pink to show that she's in between role. And she starts to have a less feminized body and start wearing male clothing. So she'll be not wearing anything up top, a male kilt on, but still have a fairly feminine face. And then in her 2D representations, having this indeterminate skin tone. And by the end of her reign, she's depicted fully masculine where she's almost indistinguishable from her co King Thutmose iii. So you can see how she uses the art to solidify her power. Because for the Egyptians, the king was always male. The queen could be very significant even in foreign policy. We know the queens wrote letters to other courts and probably were quite involved in the decision making. But it's still a gender based role. So to see her take on the role of king and then have to use clothing, skin tone, artistic representation to try to harmonize the idea of being a female king.
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Cassidy Zachary
And I have to say, April, we got to see those very sculptures that she's just talked about in this clip on this tour, which was so cool. And you can see yourselves, of course, dress listeners, if you head to the Met, you can listen to our interview with her, our full interview with her. And of course we're going to link to the full interviews of all of our past dress guests with you in the show notes if you want to check those out. But April, you unfortunately were not able to attend Colleen's tour because you were simultaneously giving your own tour of the Met. And before we dive into that, because you actually typically start in ancient Egypt on your tour, which of course you did not do because Colleen was doing that tour. But I'm just curious, what are your favorite pieces in that section in the museum?
- [30:45]
April Callahan
Well, so I do these Met tours twice a week and I do start in Ancient Egypt, but we don't necessarily start out speaking about garments per se. We actually talk about ancient Egyptian beauty and cosmetic practices. So some of my very favorite objects in that ancient Egyptian section are Princess Cytheronet's makeup boxes that were found in her tomb with these incredible alabaster and then stone and brass containers that held all of her beauty products. There's a tiny little one that's a little jar that held her coal, her eyeliner and yeah, there's so much to say about. They are basically beauty and wellness obsessed.
- [31:30]
Cassidy Zachary
Do you stop at the wig that is on view in that section, because that wig is just insane.
- [31:37]
April Callahan
So this was also found in Princess Sith Atharinet's tomb were hundreds of gold, actual gold wig rings. And then there's tiny little rings that gradated in size, starting smaller at the top and bigger at the bottom into a wig to create almost like a lattice like pattern on the outer layer of the wig. It's amazing. And so obviously, when they were found at her tomb, the actual wig had disintegrated.
- [32:05]
Cassidy Zachary
Because that was my next question. I was like, is this real human hair that survived?
- [32:11]
April Callahan
Because of their placement, how they were found in the tomb, and also depictions in ancient Egyptian art, they were able, Egyptologists were able to reconstruct how this particular wig style would have looked. And if any of you are familiar with the Egyptian bead net dresses, this is very much kind of the same concept of when these dresses have been found in tombs, the placement of the beads helps them understand how this would have looked and then again, confirming that with art as well. But there were hundreds of these wig rings in her tomb. And that tells us that not only does she have this one particular wig, which they have reconstructed now at the Met, but also probably an entire wig wardrobe of other styles as well.
- [32:53]
Cassidy Zachary
Amazing, amazing. And that always, when you say wig wardrobe, it always makes me think of Elizabeth Taylor's Cleopatra, because I don't know if you've seen that movie from the 60s. She has this wig closet and this giant wardrobe, of course, all of these 1960s acid colored dresses. But again, one can dream and one can fantasize. But something I also really love about your tour, and you didn't necessarily get to do it for this tour group, because we only had a limited amount of time, is you take people around the Met into these hidden recesses that people don't necessarily know about, which is really special. And one of the things that you take them to is the visible storage section where you give this fantastic talk about this man with powder on his shoulders. Wig powder? Yes, wig powder. I don't know.
- [33:47]
April Callahan
Interesting dissection of fashion and politics is what it devolves into. It's not where you think it's going to go. Basically. A long story short, one of the main ingredients in Whig pattern in the 18th century was wheat starch. And when you process the grains of wheat to remove the starch for this product, it renders it unusable for flour. And one of the main, not I wouldn't want to say main, but a big incendiary point that kicked off the French Revolution was multiple years in a row the wheat harvest failed or didn't do well. So there was a famine happening. So when all these aristocrats, including Marie Antoinette when she was at the court of Versailles, were wearing all this wheat starch in their hair, it was obviously quite upsetting to some people. The people who were experiencing famine.
- [34:35]
Cassidy Zachary
Yes.
- [34:35]
April Callahan
So this is just a little tease tidbit of the types of things that we talk about in the context of art and how we can look at art and use fashion as a lens to talk about all these other things.
- [34:48]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. And you did such a fantastic job. Is there any other pieces you want to highlight from your tour?
- [34:53]
April Callahan
I think that people should come on the tour and I will say this, it has been suggested to me because not everybody can come to New York. It has been suggested to me that I do a class that would essentially be a sort of variation of the tour itself. And of course I could add like additional images and stuff too. But if you guys would like like a an hour and a half class that is a variation of what that tour is, I'm more than happy to do that. So hit us up. Yes, hit us up at our email.
- [35:20]
Cassidy Zachary
Hellorusthistory.Com and we are going to head into the last part of our day. Three after brief words from our sponsors.
- [35:28]
April Callahan
Foreign.
- [35:36]
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- [36:36]
Cassidy Zachary
Welcome back dress listeners and welcome to the concluding part of today's episode where we talk about another kind of I don't want to say it's hidden in the Met, but maybe a lesser known area of the Met. We hear so much about the Costume Institute, but how often do you hear about the Antonio Roti center, which is such a special, incredible place. Do you want to tell listeners more about it? April yes.
- [36:59]
April Callahan
So the Antonio Ratti Textile center is actually a study department within the museum itself, and they house the overwhelming vast majority of textiles from all the other departments at the museum. There are some rare exceptions where perhaps the African department still has some of the specific textiles. But overwhelmingly every department sends their textiles to be specially cared for by the Radi Center. And one of the things that makes the Rattie center so special is that you as a member of the public, if you have a valid research request, you can make an appointment and actually view some of these objects, which is exactly what we got to do. And they have something above approximately 36,000 textile based objects within their collection. And we were joined by a former Ratty employee and past dress guest, Elena Kanagi Lux. And because she knows the collection so well, she'd worked there for many years and she pulled out some really beautiful examples from the collection that kind of spanned the globe. And then also she picked out some really particularly beautiful examples of lace because that is her specialty. She is not only a historian of lace, she is a lace maker herself. And as a past dressed guest, we're going to hear a little bit more from her, told from our 2022 episode.
- [38:22]
Elena Kanagi Lux
So there are a number of factors that kind of convened at the same time to encourage the development of lace in Europe. As I mentioned, the development of printing technology to allow the circulation of pattern books. Also the availability of cheap skilled labor by women in convents and schools, which.
- [38:39]
April Callahan
I think we're going to talk about more. Yes, absolutely.
- [38:42]
Elena Kanagi Lux
And the desire for increasingly elaborate fashion by aristocrats whose wealth was growing through colonial expansion. So, you know, this is emerging kind of at the same time as the development of colonialism and capitalism. And unfortunately, I'm not sure if it would have developed to the heights that it has if it weren't that it emerged at that precise moment.
- [39:02]
April Callahan
Elena's knowledge of lace casts spends not only techniques but also the globe. And I think I have mentioned this on the show before in the past, but one of the things that when we go to the Roddy center that she pulls out because she knows I am personally obsessed with it, is this example of Chantilly lyres that is made from did not silk, but human hair. And you would never know by looking at it, really. No, it's simply gorgeous. It's a blonde lace made from blonde hair. And you would never necessarily know unless perhaps you were a textile historian, that it was individual strands of human hair that are creating the lace and not threads.
- [39:47]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. But this is the part that I really appreciated, is that you jumped in with a really fascinating history about the hair trade that I'd love if you could just share a little bit of that history, because it's really, really fascinating.
- [39:58]
April Callahan
I've done a little bit of work here and there on the hair trade industry in terms of, like, the harvesting of hair and how hair pieces were made in the 19th century. And this is part and parcel due to the fact that we had a lot of hair trade manuals at FIT dating back to the Victorian era. And so these are made by industry for industry, talking about the trade itself, itself. But this particular piece of lace that Elena pulls out, within the regions in France, of Brittany and Normandy, those were known as these epicenters of hair harvesting. And a lot of the. The residents of those regions were blonde. And so the hair trade salesmen would make annual pilgrimages at certain times of the year, and the women would know that they were coming in, like, May or whatever, and if they felt like it, they could sell lengths of their hair to be used in the wig industries. And a lot of these communities had a very specific type of regional dress where their heads were entirely covered, sometimes in these fantastical and quite whimsical headpieces. But if you did sell your hair and it was short, your headdress would completely cover that and allow you to regrow it and in another year or two, perhaps sell your hair again.
- [41:18]
Elena Kanagi Lux
So.
- [41:19]
April Callahan
So these specific regions where this hair lace was being made was also known as an epicenter of hair harvesting as.
- [41:26]
Cassidy Zachary
Well, which, again, is just so fascinating. And then you see what actually people did with this hair, which, of course, there was a hair wig trade at this time, hairpiece trade, that was quite common, but apparently you could also use it to embroider and to make some lace. This is always such a treat to do this with Elena. This is now the second time we've done it, because she really does, as you said, take us on a world tour of fashion and dress practices. And in just an hour, we get ahead. All over the world and throughout history, she pulls some really stunning objects. There's these Chinese embroidered slippers, and then there's this really exquisite Chinese jacquard woven vest that is so beautiful. It has all these lovely butterflies. There's these insane Turkish platform shoes that I think are mom shoes. 14 inches. They're crazy.
- [42:16]
April Callahan
Yeah. And they're wood and they're inset. With mother of pearl.
- [42:19]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. Mind boggling. They're so beautiful. But there's also. She always pulls a really lovely example of this Central Asian ecot robe, which, if you've seen these robes in the past, and they are just exceptionally beautiful because they're in these really bold, lovely colors. But what's so insane about this particular example is it's also velvet. And she is really wonderful because she really understands how these things are constructed and the techniques that are used to construct the textiles and to weave the textiles, and in this case, to do not only an E cot, which is you're binding the threads before you dye them in the warp and the weft. And then on top of that, you have the velvet pile that then gets cut, which is just a remarkable feat of artistry, of craftsmanship. So that's always a highlight for me.
- [43:09]
April Callahan
The technical mastery to create this textile.
- [43:14]
Cassidy Zachary
So thank you, Elena, and thank you to the entire Ratty staff for hosting us. We had such a wonderful time. And thank you to all of our dress listeners on these two days that we've highlighted for joining us in New York. And we hope, dress listeners, that even you could not join us in person, that you have at least been transported to our experience. And maybe we've given you some tidbits that you can explore on your own.
- [43:35]
April Callahan
And one of the big questions that we got while we are on our New York tour, and many of these queries came from our past travel colors that had joined us again is, where are we going next? Well, we have an answer for you now.
- [43:48]
Cassidy Zachary
We do. And dress listeners, coming your way in October, although it is still very much in the works, is a fashion history tour of Santa Fe, which might not be what you were expecting, but as you know, I am from New Mexico, and New Mexico has an incredibly rich textile and fashion history going back thousands of years. We have incredibly diverse indigenous communities stretching back thousands of years. Then the Spanish colonized in the 16th century and moving into American colonization in the 19th century. So you have all of these different cultures and dress practices that exist separately, but then come in conversation with one another. And one of the places where those conversations were happening is in the capital of Santa Fe. And we are really excited, actually, I.
- [44:37]
April Callahan
Am very excited to go to the Georgia O'Keeffe Museum in Santa Fe. And when we go there, there's a really great exhibition up right now that does feature some of her garments and basically talks about her lifestyle quite a lot. And so we will see what we can tease out of the curators. In terms of having potential access to some of her wardrobe type stuff. But as Cass said, this is still very much in the planning phase. But it is happening in October. Yes, probably second or third week of October.
- [45:09]
Cassidy Zachary
And we're going to be going to a lot of museums, of course, and exploring a lot of this diversity. The Museum of International Folk Art, the History Museum of New Mexico, doing tours and fashion history tours there. But one of the things that I'm most excited about is we will be transported back in time with tours of El Rancho de los Colantrinas, which is a historic ranch and a living history museum that I grew up going to. I go there at least once a year because they have these wonderful festivals. Unfortunately we're going to miss the festivals, but it's this expansive ranch and we're going to be doing a walking tour there and then hopefully be doing a picnic down by the lake. So it's very much in the works. But this is all to say if you want to join us, please send us an email@hellojusthistory.com and get on the first to know list and Dress listeners Also Up Our Sleeves Some things up our sleeves Just remember my class what Women Wore to the Revolution is coming your way every Sunday in May. You can head to dress history.com to sign up for that, but I think that does it for us today. Dress listeners, you can find social media content related to these episodes this week. Because this is a two parter, we are not done. We still have one more day to tell you about. You can find that@ hashtag dress534 and dressed 535.
- [46:24]
April Callahan
Until next time, may you consider what your favorite item of clothing means to you. Next time you get dressed, please head over to Dressed Underscore podcast on Instagram or out the Underscore on Facebook to check out the visual content associated with each week's episodes.
- [46:43]
Cassidy Zachary
Remember, we love hearing from you dressed listeners. So if you'd like to write to us you can do so at hello@dressing history.com DressHistory.com is also our website where you can sign up for our monthly newsletter, our in person tours and online fashion history courses. And there you can also check out whatever else we have up our finely tailored sleeves.
- [47:02]
April Callahan
We get so many questions from you all about our recommendations for fashion history books, so if you're interested you can always find a link in our show notes to our bookshop.org bookshelf so that adds address is bookshop.org shop forward/dressed and there you will find over 150 of our favorite fashion history titles.
- [47:23]
Cassidy Zachary
Do you love Dressed but want to skip the ads? We are so excited to now be a part of the Airwave Network and their premium ad free history subscription Airwave History plus and this is available on Apple Podcasts and the subscription brings you our podcast as well as 27 other popular history podcasts. Ad free for $5.99 per month. More information is available at the link in our bio.
- [47:48]
April Callahan
Thank you as always for tuning in and more dressed coming your way soon. The History of Fashion is a production of Dressed Media.
- [48:00]
Dan Souza
Hey everyone, it's Dan Souza from America's Test Kitchen. I'm super excited to let you all know that we're launching a new video podcast that takes you behind the scenes into the messy, imperfect but riveting day to day life right here in our Test kitchen. Not only do I get to talk to my colleagues about the latest taste.
- [48:15]
Cassidy Zachary
Test they attended, I just came from a tasting of salted caramel apple pie bars and then roasted garlic.
- [48:21]
Dan Souza
So I apologize or about a recipe they're developing.
- [48:25]
Cassidy Zachary
The thing about this recipe is it's a secret. The restaurateur refuses to tell people what her secret ingredients are.
- [48:31]
Dan Souza
We also chat with with amazing guests from the culinary world and beyond. The lamest joke I've ever said. I said to Maria Bamford, what's great.
- [48:38]
eBay Spokesperson
It's definitely the joke.
- [48:39]
Dan Souza
Thanks man. Make sure to subscribe to in the Test Kitchen so you don't miss an episode. You can watch in the Test Kitchen on YouTube and Spotify and listen to it wherever you get your podcasts. Can't wait to see you in the Test Kitchen.