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- [00:01]
April Callahan
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- [00:58]
Cassidy Zachary
1-800-Contacts Dressed the History of Fashion is a production of dressed media. With over 8 billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day, we all get dressed.
- [01:15]
April Callahan
Welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast that explores the who, what, when of why we wear. We are friends, fashion historians and your.
- [01:24]
Cassidy Zachary
Hosts, April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary, dress listeners. Hello and welcome to our not final but second to final episode of season eight, where does the time go?
- [01:36]
April Callahan
April, I know that this officially means that this is episode number 574, dress listeners. So we have one more coming your way to round this season out at 575.
- [01:50]
Cassidy Zachary
And because the holidays have come really quickly, we're actually going to be doing our annual gift giving episode fantasy gift giving episode this Friday so you can look for that brand new episode on Friday this week and then we will be wrapping up the season for the year and be back with you in 2026. But before we go, we are so excited to bring to you today the highlights from our recent day tours of New York City which were so exciting and jam packed as usual. But we got to meet so many of you in person which is so exciting. Some people had never even heard of the podcast. They found us from other means, which is also very exciting. So hopefully we have some new listeners with us here today. But yeah, we just had such a blast and our very first day on Wednesday, December 3rd was spent at a well familiar place to you dress listeners. We spent the entire day in front of and behind the scenes at the Fashion Institute of Technology.
- [02:47]
April Callahan
Yes. And this is actually every time we do this tour. We just did one in April, a version of this and then we did it again this December. This always sells Out. So next time we do this, guys, jump on this day as soon as you possibly can, because it sells out lickety split. But Cass and I are just going to walk you through this day a little bit. What we looked at, what we did, what we saw, and then move on through the other two days as well. So we actually split into two groups because of size limitations of some of the spaces that we were in. And the first group I took to special collections and college archives at FIT, which is where I was a curator for nearly 12 years. And once again, and as I always do, I pulled out some of my favorite objects. However, this year we pulled out entirely new things. So just a couple of highlights from our visit. There were cats, and I don't know if you've ever actually seen these. Have you ever looked at the issues of Cabinet Day Mode that we have not Gallerie Day Mode. Cabinet Day Mode?
- [03:47]
Cassidy Zachary
No, I have not. But I am familiar with that publication because I'm entrenched in that era for my upcoming class. Research for my upcoming class. But you'll tell us all about why I'm sure this particular fashion magazine is so significant.
- [04:00]
April Callahan
Yeah. So the reason Kassity is entrenched in this period right now is because her upcoming class, which will start on January 18th, you are actually going to start out by speaking about fashion in the era of Marie Antoinette and then moving forward. And Cabinet Nemod is incredibly special because it was the issues that we looked at were from 1799. And these particular issues were like, basically, it was like one of the very first French fashion magazines that re emerged in the wake of the French Revolution, which, technically speaking, ended in 1799. So we had a whole slew of these magazines that are all bound together. Of course, they're very, very small, only maybe like 8 or 10 pages in the actual text, which talks about, obviously, fashion, social doings in Paris at that time, theater, let's say music, sometimes polite society. But of course, the treasured object in all of these fashion magazines were the fashion plates or fashion images that are at the end of each issue. And a lot of these from 1799. It's fascinating because the color palette that women were wearing at this time was still that revolutionary trio of red, white, and blue. They're all wearing these red, white, and blue ensembles. And the other thing I want to say about these is because of that Directoire, that very slim silhouette that emerged in the wake of the Revolution, the Dierec Troire silhouette. Some of these images include some of the first images of women carrying handbags as well.
- [05:34]
Cassidy Zachary
Oh, so fascinating. Yeah, it's just. It's incredible. When you look at, say, fashion from 10 years prior. Right. Of 1789, and then just how women's fashion has transformed by 1799, it's a dramatic change, one that is a fashion revolution. But I just love the silhouettes of that period. They're so enchanting and so beautiful.
- [05:54]
April Callahan
Yeah, yeah. It's one of the most pivotal points in fashion history that 10 year time span or so. We also looked at a whole bunch of magazines from the 1870s, and it's really interesting because in the plates from the 18th century, there's no advertising at the bottom, whereas by, you know, 70 or so years later, you have full advertising at the bottom. And my favorite part about some of them is that there is advertising text saying where you can get things that are not even in the fashion plate, like what perfume the women are depicted wearing, where their hair dye came from, like where their corsets came from, which, of course, you can't see because it's underneath the clothes. That's one of my favorite objects. And then the last thing that I pulled, not the last thing we looked at many things, but the last thing I want to mention before you give some of your highlights of your visit cast is that we also pulled out some sketches from the Bergdorf Goodman custom salon. And these. You guys have heard us talk about this a million times on the show. These were the sketches that were basically documenting the licensed copies from haute couture houses that Bergdorf Goodman was making, made to measure in their salons in New York City for their American clients, Largely American clients. But what was extra special for this was the fact that the particular sketches that we pulled that people were able to look at were the exact sketches of some of the dresses that you guys got to look at in the museum at Fit Study Collection. So we had the original sketch from the time and then the actual dress. So that is my segue to you.
- [07:31]
Cassidy Zachary
Yes, that was really special this time. And then same with my visit to FIT Study Collection, which is such an incredibly special experience because we get to not only view historical objects up close and personal, we actually get to handle them as well. And so thank you to Raisa, who manages this collection, for helping me. And you too, April. You actually both went in on one of your days off and did a poll for me while I was on FaceTime, which was so fun. Then you really have this expansive collection. Right. And this study collection is meant as a resource for students at FIT so that they can really get that tactile experience looking at garments, but also inside of garments, which is not something you get when you go to, say, a fashion exhibition. So I actually decided for this visit to pull a parallel to my what Women Wore class, which part one and two run from the 1850s to the 1990s, 1960s. So I did that through dress. So we started in the 1850s, which was pretty much all new objects from what I've typically done in the past. And so we had some really cool circa 1860 crinoline era dresses. One was a cotton and the other was silk. So showing the variety of dresses available for women moving into the bustle eras, moving into the early 20th century. And some of my favorite pieces of this go around was this incredible, incredibly beautiful transition era silhouette gown from the post war era. So this is the dress that is circa 1920, and it's a transition because you're coming out of World War I in which hemlines have risen and the silhouette's starting to move away from the body, but we're not quite in that 1920s drop waist or no waist silhouette. And what was really cool about this dress is April. I know we had some debate about is it a wedding dress or was it a court gown? Because it has this exceptionally long silk. It's white cream or cream silk. Right. Sleeveless. It probably hits about mid calf. And it has a waistline, but not meant to be form fitting by any means. And it has this exceptionally beautiful long train lace and that extends from the shoulder, which is why you and Raisa thought that it might be a court gown, because they were still presenting ladies at court at this time in Britain. And then I. But I was curious because once I finally got up close and personal with it and got to see it, there's actually all these little flower buds attached to it, and I wonder if they're orange blossoms and if they are orange blossoms, then it's definitely a wedding dress, because that was so symbolic during that period.
- [10:06]
April Callahan
And the reason why Raisa and I thought that it might be a court dress is particularly because the train descends from the shoulders and not the waist. Because wedding gowns, usually we would see the train start at the waist and not the shoulders. But court gowns, it was like a mandate, at least in British court, that it had to start up high. I believe I could be a little bit off there, but those court gowns, we usually see it starting up high, not at the waist.
- [10:32]
Cassidy Zachary
So, yeah, absolutely. Either way, it's an exceptionally Beautiful dress. You also pulled a robe to steel from the 1920s, which is really exciting to see, especially because it had a lot of folk influences and really being in conversation with what Paul Par was doing at this period. And yeah, just, it's. It was just so much fun. We saw designs by Claire McCardell and then in reference to the crossover between special collections and the study collection, we got to see this Christian Dior Couture ensemble for 1953. Cocktail dress, cocktail length, with characteristic Dior new look silhouette, that interior boning and structure in the bodice. And then you had a fashion illustration of it, which was really cool. And then also from Dior, but under Yves Saint Laurent in the early 60s, a pink Dior evening gown that you also had the Bergdorf Goodman sketch for. So.
- [11:25]
April Callahan
And we will say the Dior cocktail dress was like a white ground with pink polka dots on it.
- [11:31]
Cassidy Zachary
Yes.
- [11:31]
April Callahan
So amazing. And then the YSL for Dior was a pink bubblegum, pink pale taffeta sheath dress with a swath around the shoulders. They were very lovely. And at least one of them had matching shoes. Just saying.
- [11:46]
Cassidy Zachary
Yes, the 1950s Dior had matching shoes. And they actually have a blue version of a very similar dress that has a matching stole and shoes as well though.
- [11:55]
April Callahan
So it's that very 50s, like head to toe matching cocktail look. Yeah, yeah.
- [12:01]
Cassidy Zachary
And so that was real, a real treat. Everyone just has so much fun there because like they can do at special collections too, you get to actually touch these pieces, which makes it an extraordinarily special experience.
- [12:12]
April Callahan
Very carefully, we must say.
- [12:14]
Cassidy Zachary
Exactly.
- [12:16]
April Callahan
With some guidance and supervision.
- [12:18]
Cassidy Zachary
Extraordinary experience. To be matched by an even more extraordinary experience for one of our tour groups. And unfortunately we couldn't do it with both tour groups, but we got a in person tour of Dress Dreams and Desires, which is the current Fashion Institute of Technology exhibition with the one, the only, Dr. Valerie Steele.
- [12:40]
April Callahan
So we had two different tours by two past dressed guests. The first one was Valerie and her schedule that day didn't allow her to do both tours. So our second guest host was Risa Britannia, of course, who has been on the show twice now as well, who runs the museum at Fit Study Collection that we have just been speaking about, in addition to many other things that she does there. But it was really fascinating being part of the two tours by both of them. And Valerie, of course curated this exhibition which is Dress Dreams, Desire, Fashion and Psychoanalysis. In this exhibition. Valerie's already been on the show, we've already spoken about it, but just briefly, here it is actually the first exhibition to examine fashion through the lens of psychoanalysis. Specifically, of course, there's been a ton of work done on fashion and psychology, or the psychology of fashion, but this is fashion and psychoanalysis. So we're talking lots of Freud, we're talking lots of Lacan, all these different theorists, which Valerie's tour really tapped into specifically about this very, very complex concept that she has been working on for decades in various permutations. The book alone that accompanies this exhibition, she spent five years working on. And so with Valerie, we got a little bit of peep into more of the theory and the theorists that are supporting the concept of the show, which was really enlightening. And then on Rice's tour, I found it equally engaging because she kind of brought us a slightly different take. She engaged with the concept, but through the objects a little bit more. So highlighting very specific objects within the exhibition and then putting those forward within the concept. Did I describe that well?
- [14:29]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, yeah.
- [14:30]
April Callahan
Okay. So the show actually has about 100 different objects in it, and quite a few of them are actually by slightly more contemporary designers. There's pieces by Alaia in there, Chanel, we have John Galliano for Dior, There's Jean Paul Gaultier, Alexander McQueen, you name it. There's tons and tons of really wonderful, more contemporary 21st century designers within this exhibition. Not to say that there wasn't some 19th century fetish boots in there as well, and some other kind of older objects, but I would classify this more as late 20th, 21st century fashion through the lens of psychoanalysis.
- [15:09]
Cassidy Zachary
There was a lot of earlier, like 19th and early 20th century. In the first section, which is before you go into the exhibition space, there's kind of two exhibitions, exhibition spaces. And so when you kind of enter the museum, some of the earliest pieces were in there, including an example of what Freud himself might have wore. She engages with that before moving later into the 20th century. Some of my favorite pieces were in that early section, especially seeing the Salvador Dali textiles in an Adrian dress from 1947. That was a highlight to see. And also just going with Valerie through the tour was really fascinating because she explained a lot of. You got insight into her process, right, of curating the exhibition and also the meaning behind things that maybe perhaps weren't initially obvious to you as a visitor, including the exhibition design. So at one point, you, like, walk in and you're face to face with yourself, right. And there's water on the wall and the lighting's a certain way. And Valerie explained about how you're moving from basically, I think it was one part of your subconscious to another part. So that was really cool. And then just how the exhibition design is. It's like you're walking through your subconscious. Right. Or these different elements and then how you saw the objects themselves too. It's just. It was just really cool. And there's some really spectacular highlights in there, including some unexpected ones, like the JLO Plunge versace dress from 2000 that everybody probably knows because it literally broke the Internet.
- [16:35]
April Callahan
It's why Google image search was invented.
- [16:37]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah.
- [16:38]
April Callahan
Because so many people were looking for images of that dress. And then Google was like, maybe we should make this an actual function.
- [16:44]
Cassidy Zachary
But this dress was really cool because again, Dr. Steele analyzes it from a different perspective. And she quotes the psychoanalyst Paul Laurent Assun, who wrote that quote, nudity is both feared and desired. And then she expounded upon that, writing, clothing is both the signifier of desire and protection against fear. And then she writes that Gianni Versace's choice of the Medusa as a brand logo, for instance, was brilliant because it is precisely her terrifying aspect. And she's talking about Medusa, the sight of her turn men to stone that makes her such a powerful protector. So it's that sort of analysis that you can expect throughout the exhibition. And I found it incredibly thought provoking and so fascinating.
- [17:24]
April Callahan
Yeah. One of my favorite objects in the exhibition was near the very front of the second section. And I love Schiaparelli Cass. And you know that I'm teaching a class on Schiaparelli dress listeners that starts on January 4th and extends into January 11th. So there's two different sessions. But the glove that were in the case, they were these Schiaparelli gloves, evening gloves, where they came up over the arm. But the first part was skin tight, I would say up to mid forearm. And then they basically turned into ballooned sleeves that you could add to your look. They were fabulous.
- [18:00]
Cassidy Zachary
And the way they were displayed, like they were coming out of a mirror, if I remember correctly, they were coming out of the wall almost like they were reaching towards you and as if they were embodied. So they were like somebody's arms were reaching towards you. So that was really cool because there's.
- [18:13]
April Callahan
A tactile aspect to touch as well. If you want to learn more about this exhibition, you can listen to Valerie and I's at least 45 minute talk that we did earlier this season, several months ago, probably in September or so. So you can tune back into that back episode if you're interested in learning more. And that is where we wrapped our day one of our three day tour. Cass, where did we head next?
- [18:39]
Cassidy Zachary
So next was the next day, Thursday. We started our day at the New York Historical Society at an exhibition April, that you're going to tell us all about.
- [18:48]
April Callahan
Yeah, so the exhibition that we went to see was fascinating. We have to note that New York Historical Society, they obviously specialize in the history of New York City. And within the New York Historical they also have a center for women's history that does very fascinating exhibitions, including this one which is called the New York Sari. It is still up dress listeners and it runs through April 26th of next year, 2026. So you still have time to make it to New York Historical to check it out. But by their description, quote the New York Sari, meaning the exhibition centers the sari as an essential part of the cultural fabric of New York City, using it as a metaphor for the ways in which the individuals who wear and create saris have straddled tradition, culture and modernity in their work, art and lives. The exhibition tells the stories of who wears sari and the relationship between saris and identities and how they've evolved over time. And it was incredibly charming. I learned a lot. The exhibition was curated or co curated by Salane Bauman, who is a Mellon Foundation Postdoctoral Fellow at the Women's History and Mellon Foundation Postdoctoral Fellow in Women's History and Public History, and also Anna Danziger Halperin, Director of the center for Women's History, who was actually the person who gave us the tour. So these are the kind of experiences that we are crafting for you guys. When you come on these trips with us, you are frequently interacting with the curator of that exhibition. And this doesn't happen all the time. Just saying.
- [20:22]
Cassidy Zachary
The exhibition was just wonderful. Everything New York Historical Society does is so incredibly thoughtful and incredibly well researched. You're never going to accuse these curators or this museum of not having jam packed, well researched exhibition labels for you that just tell you this incredible story. And this exhibition was no exception.
- [20:44]
April Callahan
The exhibition wasn't only garments. There were a ton of historic photos. There was actually some contemporary art pieces within the exhibition itself which actually physically used sari or sari creation as the theme within the artwork. And it also tells the story of New Yorkers behind some of these very specific sari looks. One of my favorite pieces in the exhibition was right at the beginning and it was cash. You remember that example of Parsi Gara embroidery. And this is a very specific painstaking embroidery technique that was brought to India by the Parsi community from Persia. And they were actually inspired a lot in their trade with China. And so this embroidery pulls in all of these kind of Chinese embroidery techniques and motifs. And we see this again and again about the legacy of trade that is evidenced in textiles throughout history and around the world. And this Parsi gari technique, this piece probably took thousands of hours of handwork. And remember when we were at the show and I was like, cass, we just talked about Parsi Gara embroidery. Where did I see this? And you were like, no, I don't remember. Okay, I remembered. And it was in our Met Gala recap episode because one of the people that I spoke about that was on the red carpet was Natasha Poonawalla. Oh, right, yeah. And she's, quote, unquote, empress of Indian fashion and she's executive director of one of the of India's largest vaccine manufacturers. And also she's this really big philanthropist. But we discussed her ensemble from the Met Gala red carpet, which was created by Manish Malhotra, who actually used some vintage Parsi Ghara saris, one of which was over 100 years old. And this was a reference to Natasha's own Parsi heritage. And another incredible thing about this embroidery example technique is all of this is done usually with a single thread. So it's just over and over, which is so painstaking. So we actually got to see up close an example of this within the sari exhibition.
- [22:54]
Cassidy Zachary
So beautiful exhibition. Congratulations and thank you New York Historical Society for having us. Thank you to Karen Ben Horn, who actually we only got to briefly see. I got a quick hug.
- [23:05]
April Callahan
And that was it.
- [23:06]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, got a quick hug. You will remember, dressed listeners, that Karen is a multi past dressed guest. She was one of the co curators on Reality Women Real Lives, which we visited on our early spring tours of the New York Historical Society earlier this year. While not giving the tour of this exhibition, she actually set up a talk with the founding director of this center for Women's History at the museum, Valerie Paley, who actually joined us at the top of our tour to give us a brief history of the New York Historical Society, which is one of the oldest cultural institutions and museums in New York City. And so that was really special as well. So thank you. Thank you, Valerie. Thank you, Anna. Thank you, Karen, and thank you, Kristin, who set this all up as well. So thank you everybody. And we're not actually done at the New York Historical Society because there was another fantastic exhibition there that I didn't have all the time in the world. I wish I'd had more time. Did you make it to see the Gay Harlem Renaissance, April?
- [24:00]
April Callahan
I popped into it previously, so I did not go back in this time because New York Historical also has a really fabulous gift shop.
- [24:10]
Cassidy Zachary
I may have.
- [24:10]
April Callahan
I might have picked up a few Christmas skiffs while I was there. Just saying.
- [24:15]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. So I went and saw the Gay Harlem Renaissance, which is an exhibition that invites visitors to immerse themselves in the richness of black LGBTQ life in the 1920s during this incredibly exciting period, which many of us know as the Harlem Renaissance. And as the exhibition tells us. Uniting paintings, sculpture, artifacts, documents, photographs, and music from collections across the country, the Gay Harlem Renaissance celebrates the creativity, innovation, and resilience of Black LGBTQ Harlemites in the face of racist pressure and homophobic laws. This exhibition, again jam packed with information. I wish I had more time, but it was absolutely fantastic. Just briefly, want to mention one of my favorite objects in the exhibition, because I'd never heard of these before, the rent Party tickets that were on display. And apparently Rent Parties were a popular kind of community party during this period in which people needed help to pay their rent. So when they threw parties in their home, you would pay, like, a small fee to come and engage in this really vibrant and safe place for queer nightlife and the queer community to gather. And so they had rent Party tickets, which were part of that, and so that was really cool to learn about. They also had reports from undercover cops who attended some of these parties and was describing what he was seeing. So again, just jam packed with information and a really cool exhibition.
- [25:40]
April Callahan
Yeah, and we've actually touched on this before on the show. In our episode with Eleanor Medhurst on a history of Lesbian fashion, we talked about rent Party culture a little bit in that episode as well. So you can tune back into that. But we're also not done.
- [25:54]
Cassidy Zachary
No, we're not. And when we come back from a brief sponsor break, we're going to tell you all about our afternoon spent at the Metropolitan Opera.
- [26:09]
April Callahan
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- [26:24]
Cassidy Zachary
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- [26:53]
April Callahan
And Cas, you know, I'm not tech savvy, so I really appreciated how Skylight Frame's quick one minute setup was super easy for me. You don't need an app or a subscription. And if you aren't happy with your frame, you can return it within four months for a full refund, no questions asked.
- [27:09]
Cassidy Zachary
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- [27:28]
April Callahan
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- [27:42]
Cassidy Zachary
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- [27:58]
April Callahan
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- [28:23]
Cassidy Zachary
Go to quince.com dress for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com dress to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com dressed welcome back dress listeners. So we are actually not done with day two of our tour because we had the most special experience at the Metropolitan Opera who did this entire afternoon for us, took us in front of and behind the scenes on I think four or five different tours where we Just got this incredibly immersive, incredibly special experience.
- [29:08]
April Callahan
So thank you to everyone, pretty much everyone at the Met Opera.
- [29:14]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. And this day was actually a couple years in the making because it. I think it was one or two years ago now that Chanel Williams, who is the senior publicist for the Opera, emailed me. She's a listener of the show and was trying to figure out ways that we could connect and collaborate. Fast forward to this year. I reached out to her, wanted to see if we could do something with the opera and Chanel and Zoe, who's the press coordinator. And I think it was a team of something like 15 people, all worked together to take us into the Met Opera. And of course, Gilded Age fans may remember the Metropolitan Opera are well familiar with it. This is a plot line in the show. The Metropolitan Opera opened in 1883 as a rival to New York City's more exclusive Academy of Music, and it was built by New York City's new money families like the Vanderbilts and the Morgans. And fast forward to today, it's one of the world's leading opera companies. So we split into two groups, and one of our groups went to a front of house tour with John, who is the. The associate director of archives. And then the other group did backstage tours with Christopher Bronner, who is the senior editor of the Opera. And the front of house was just fascinating. John took us upstairs and downstairs and told us about all of the art on display, the design of the building, the incredible crystal chandeliers. And then Christopher took us behind the scenes, and that was really exciting because it's a working opera house. So we were, like, watching people back.
- [30:45]
April Callahan
Backstage, and they were putting on La Boheme that night. So I think you said that your group didn't actually get to go on the stage. We actually got. We actually got to go on the stage backstage while they were, like, moving all of these set pieces, getting them in their spaces for the performance that night. It was very cool.
- [31:06]
Cassidy Zachary
And what's fascinating about the Met Opera is they do their productions on rotation. So they rotate out these. These epic, giant sets almost every single day. For each unique performance. We got to take peeks into dressing rooms. Right. And learn about this process. It really reminded me, listeners, you may remember, I started out in theater. I interned at the Santa Fe Opera, and it just got me so excited to be thrown back into this atmosphere. That is really exciting because these are live performances, right. And it was just really cool. So thank you to John and Christopher. And then after that, again, our Two groups were treated to a private tour, not one, but two different private tours of their current exhibition, which is called behind the Scenes. And this is the single largest archival costume exhibition presented at the opera. And it featured More than 20 pieces connected to operas in the 2025, 2026 season. So this exhibition's divided into two parts. So if you are familiar with the opera, you can walk downstairs. And left was one exhibition space, right was so it. One of our groups went with the resident costume designer Sylvia Nolan, who took us through the side that had the actual physical costumes, some of which are really famous. Cecil Beaton's 1961 vibrant, almost acid colored designs for Puccini's Turandot. But also for us fashion lovers. I know this is one of your favorites. April was certainly one of mine, was seeing Valentina. So the fashion designer Valentina's Designs for the 1936 production of Carmen starring Rosa Poncel. Did you have a favorite from this side? It was just so cool to see these pieces in person.
- [32:50]
April Callahan
Oh, it was just staggering to see the Valentina, because when Sylvia was giving us the tour, she wasn't really necessarily talking too, too much about the particular designers. We were talking about the productions, and sometimes she would point out the designers, but my jaw dropped when I saw that it was Valentina. Again, I'm going to keep saying this on this episode. We again have already done an entire episode on Valentina, who is perhaps the most outrageous American fashion designer of all time. She was born in Ukraine, actually ended up coming to the US in the 1920s because she was part of a Russian ballet troupe, not the Ballet Russe, but a similar troupe, and then ended up staying and becoming this wildly outlandish fashion designer, probably the most expensive in New York City at this time. And then also it's quite infamous for being part of a throuple with Valentina's husband and Greta Garbo. So when I was telling our listeners this, they were like, what? I'm like, exactly.
- [33:55]
Cassidy Zachary
It was really, really cool to see her designs. And they're so typical of the 1930s silhouette. Right. So even though it's a production of Carmen, which is usually typically in the 19th century and very Spanish inspired, they're very, very typical of that 1930s body conscious silhouette. And Sylvia, what a gifted storyteller.
- [34:13]
April Callahan
She's delightful.
- [34:15]
Cassidy Zachary
She gave us some really fascinating insights into not just the production, but really the mind of the designer. Like, why would the costume designer have created this sweeping, epic train? Right. While it was for dramatic effect, during this really important scene in Carmen. So that was really cool to learn. And I, I told Sylvia to him, like, you're going to have to come. Because she is such an incredible fountain of knowledge and just such fascinating and illuminating stories that she shared with us, as did the director of archives, Maurice Wheeler, who took us on a tour of the other section of the exhibition, which showcased archival photographs, original sketches, so the original beaten sketches for Turandot, and then behind the scenes images that illuminated the creative process and technical mastery that is costume design at the Metropolitan Opera. And so you really gotta see that process. And incredibly special for us was that we didn't just get to see it in pictures because the final part of our tour was actually going into the costume shop and the different workshops and seeing people actually at work, working away. So special. And again, my little heart was a patter because it just really shot me right back into what it's like to be part of these workshops with all of this, these incredibly talented makers. I didn't realize it had an in house cobbler. He was working on building a shoe. There was another young woman building a doublet. I went and talked to a woman named Siobhan. Shout out to Siobhan, who is a listener of the show. She was working on pleating a garment and talked to me a little bit more about what she was doing. One of the really cool things that people were really proud of and was shared with us multiple times throughout the tours was that they reuse the costumes. That's very typical of these opera houses, but they reuse the costumes and they leave the original tag in. So, you know, who else wore the costume as an opera singer. To have that heritage literally on your body is so special. And to see how old some of these costumes are and what legacy and history they come with was really cool. And there's drapers and seamstresses and agers and dyers. There's a whole crafts workshop. I went backstage and met. I don't think this was part of the main group tour. I did a little bit of, of my own tour with Chanel and Zoe so I could get some social media footage to share with you. But I went into the craft and millinery department and met Chris Prussen, who was working on some magic flute accessories. One of the big highlights, I think, April, and you can tell me if you agree with me, was going into the wig workshop and meeting some of the wig makers.
- [36:53]
April Callahan
We didn't get. We didn't get to go in. Yeah, yeah. But that was actually one of my Favorite, favorite aspects too, because we did see some wigs. We didn't go into the wig workshop, but we must say that we are in the belly of the Metropolitan Opera on multiple floors at this point. And what was also really fascinating is in some of these really long hallways, they were using the long hallways themselves as storage spaces for all the costumes lining the hallways. So you got to see things in flux. But one of my favorite cabinets was a whole cabinet of 18th century era esque wigs that was going to be for an upcoming production. And they're all in these pale pastel colors and they were simply magical. It was one of my favorite photos that I took from that day.
- [37:40]
Cassidy Zachary
And I actually did a little bit of a video reel which will be coming to our social media with Susie Knowles, who works in the wig department. She gave me a little introduction to all of those fabulous wigs because they were so incredibly beautiful and in that characteristic 18th century poof hairstyle with all of these different accoutrements. And that was just such a treat when she opened up this cabinet and. And then we, I guess my group got to go in and it was just very brief, but we got to go meet one of the wig makers who we could have spent all day there listening to him tell us about the art of wig making. Because I don't think people realize that these wigs, like many of the costumes, are built piece by piece. They pull individual pieces of hair through the lace and it's this incredibly artistic process. You can't even tell they're wearing wigs because these people are such master craftsmen at what they do. So if you didn't know that a wig maker is a possible job, dress listeners, now you do.
- [38:38]
April Callahan
It's art in itself, really. Yes.
- [38:42]
Cassidy Zachary
And so that was just really special. And special thanks to Stephanie Spangler, who's the director of costumes, wardrobe, wigs and makeup, Tanya Grieving, who's the costume head, and Robert Beulah, who's the assistant costume shop head. And then everyone who let me come talk to them and photograph them and just everyone, thank you so much for allowing us into your spaces and to get to see what you do. I mean, it's so wonderful to get to go see the opera productions. Right. But it's. Sometimes you forget just how much work goes into each and every one of these productions. It's truly extraordinary. And our tour did not end there.
- [39:18]
April Callahan
Actually, at this point, we did get to sit down.
- [39:22]
Cassidy Zachary
Yes. But the opera arranged a very special talk. I got to sit down with Clint Ramos, who is the costume designer and Lincoln Center's artist in residence, Tony Award winning costume designer, incredibly talented and insightful and generous with his knowledge and time, who is creating costumes for Tristan and Isolde, which is a new production that's premiering at the Opera in March 2026. And we actually all got a sneak peek of his designs for that production and his design process, which, let's just say, very much engages with contemporary fashion. And his designs for this production are just incredible. And he'll actually be back in season nine to tell us more about them, but also just about his journey as a costume designer, because it's fascinating. He's from the Philippines, came here and built this incredible career. And one of our attendees was this young woman named Levi, who I don't know if she was in high school or college, but she works in costumes at her school. And she asked him if he had any advice for an up and coming costume designer or someone who wants to be a costume designer. And he gave her the most beautiful answer. It makes me want to cry just thinking about it and I won't do him justice. But he basically told her that if you want to find a community of like minded people who share your passion, share your love, if this is like, like something you have to do to be exist, right. If this is like happy in your body, feel fulfilled. Yes, exactly. If this is your passion and you want to find that community of people who share that passion with you, then do it. Don't do it because you want to be famous or you want the fortune or because you somehow think this is a really glamorous job, because it's really not. But what you get is something so much greater. And I just. That was just such a beautiful message and just such a wonderful way to end our time at the Metropolitan Opera, which is truly this extraordinary space that does not exist without all of these hundreds and hundreds of people who make it what it is. And thank you, Chanel. Thank you, Zoe. Thank you everyone who made this day so incredibly special. Just a real quick shout out to other social media press and marketing team. Dede, Muriel, Amanda, Emily, Colin, and Inet lives. Thank you everyone. And thank you to Clint as well.
- [41:42]
April Callahan
Yeah, I can't wait for Clint to come back because he's an incredibly engaging storyteller.
- [41:47]
Cassidy Zachary
Yes, he's really fun. So more Met Opera coming your way in 2026. And actually we did not even stop there, April, because we went to the opera that night.
- [41:57]
April Callahan
We sure did. It was a long day.
- [42:02]
Cassidy Zachary
Yes, it was a long day. We got to see La Boheme, which is Franco Zeffirelli's opera set in 19th century Paris. I think it was, judging by the costume set in the 1840s. This is apparently the world's most popular opera. I had no idea. And it follows, quote, young friends and lovers who navigate the joyous struggle of bohemian life. And let's just say the music was epic. And then. Can we just talk about those sets? April, like at one point was there like a hundred people on a two tier.
- [42:34]
April Callahan
I think they said it was like 150 people on the stage at one time. And it was depicting like a street scene in Paris. And I'm guessing that was probably mamat that they were depicting because of those big steep staircases that were coming down. It's like multi leveled. So it was a multi level set depicting like a tiered street structure. And there were vendors and they were in a cafe and there were people shopping. There were people out in the street. Street socializing.
- [43:00]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, yeah, it was amazing.
- [43:01]
April Callahan
It was really amazing also.
- [43:03]
Cassidy Zachary
And then there was another scene where there was this giant tree which we did see in our backstage tour. There was this giant tree and it was snowing. It was just such a beautiful experience and a testament to the art and beauty of the opera and really a reminder of why it continues to endure to this day. And dress listeners, if you're going to be in New York City or you live in New York City, the Metropolitan Opera, as you've heard us mention, is offered an exclusive 20% discount for select performances in December and January. And you just have to use a promo code dressed or head to the metopera.org dress to redeem that offer and we will also put that in our.
- [43:40]
April Callahan
Show notes and I popped on there the other day and there's still lots of performances available. It's a limited number of tickets for select performances, but they are 20% off. So head over there if you are interested. Speaking of heading over, we're gonna head over to our second sponsor break but we'll be right back with day three. Hey, what's up, y'?
- [44:06]
Cassidy Zachary
All?
- [44:06]
April Callahan
Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. My favorite thing about the holidays, decking out my whole house. It's not a competition but if it was, well, I'd win the season with Wayfair outdoor inflatable Santa. Got it on Wayfair. Trees, lights and ornaments. Wayfair hosting must haves like dining sets, beds, sheets and towels. Wayfair for everything in your style, delivered with fast and free shipping. Visit Wayfair.com or the Wayfair app to win the season. But again, it's not a competition.
- [44:33]
Cassidy Zachary
Wayfair Every Style, every home on December 12, Disney invites you to go behind the scenes with Taylor Swift in an exclusive 6 episode docu series I wanted.
- [44:45]
April Callahan
To open give something to the fans that they didn't expect. The only thing left is to close.
- [44:49]
Cassidy Zachary
The book, the end of an era. And don't miss Taylor Swift. The Eras Tour, the final show featuring for the first time the tortured poets department. Streaming December 12th only on Disney. Welcome back dress listeners, and welcome to Day three, which was a afternoon spent at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Not the Metropolitan Opera, but the Metropolitan Museum of Art, where we did two tours starting with April's now well seasoned fashion history tour of some of the Met's most fashionable masterpieces. April, do you want to tell us a little bit about your tour and maybe highlight one or two objects?
- [45:38]
April Callahan
Sure. So as you all have heard many times on the show, at least once a week I do these tours of the Metropolitan Museum of Art where we go into their permanent collection and we look at artworks throughout history through the lens of fashion to unpack and tease out the stories behind the clothes depicted. And sometimes people are like, oh, we're not in the Costume Institute. Why aren't we in the Costume Institute? That is because the Costume Institute only has typically one exhibition a year. Every once in a while they do a second, smaller one. But those exhibitions are typically closed group tours entirely. But they're temporary exhibitions. They're not open all the time. So anyway, that's why we use the PERM permanent collection where we have artworks that we know that are going to be there. So yeah, I typically do these on Friday nights. Sometimes I will also do them on Tuesday mornings. So you can still join in 2026 in January and February. I will be posting those dates soon. But the tour that I did for our New York City day tours group was actually a variation of the one that I typically do because it was an expanded edition. It was instead of being like an hour and a half, it was more like two hours. And I'm just gonna talk ever so briefly about two pieces from the day tours that typically aren't on my regular tour. And that is because again, we're going back to the French Revolution, right? And how that was such a pivotal change in fashion and how it happened so quickly. We actually got to see that change happen on the walls of the Met with two portraits of the same woman. And one portrait was just before the French Revolution painted of her. And the second one was pretty much just after. And her name was Noelle Catherine Vorlet, perhaps known better as Madame grand or later Madame Talleyrand. And she was quite an interesting character in and of herself. She was born originally in India because her father was an official with the East India Company. She married at 15 and would go on to become a woman of considerable sexual appetites, I would say. She had an affair when she was 17, ended up running off with that particular lover. She ends up in France in 1782, which is very interesting for what we're about to talk about here, because at this point, she becomes a very high class courtesan, so much so that only having been in France for a year or maybe less, that in 1783, the portrait that we examined of her was by Elizabeth Vige le Brun. And many of you will know that Elizabeth Vige Le Brun was the official court portraitist for Marie Antoinette. So that was her status within society at this point, that Marie Antoinette's portraitist was painting her portrait. She was known to be incredibly beautiful, but one of her husbands later also said that she was very idle and the laziest woman that he ever met.
- [48:38]
Cassidy Zachary
Well, when beauty's your profession.
- [48:40]
April Callahan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was the courtesan to various different aristocrats before the French Revolution, also high power government officials. She leaves France in 1797 during the Middle of the French Revolution, when the Reign of Terror was like, really, really taken off. She comes back to France after the Revolution is over in 1799. She ends up imprisoned for potentially being a spy. And then she kind of like wiggle her way out of prison with the help of the first French Prime Minister, Talleyrand. And then they become lovers. And so they actually got married, not necessarily because they wanted to, but Napoleon Bonaparte was so offended by the fact that he would not marry his mistress that he forced them to get married. And so then what we see is the second portrait of Catherine Verlet after her marriage and after her divorce to Talleyrand, which was in like 1804, circa 1804. But again, we see that shift from probably a robe a l', Anglaise, all silk, all the lace, all the hair teased out to high heaven before the French Revolution, highly powdered. And then again this extreme shift towards the classical silhouette and a more overall look of naturalness after the French Revolution. So only within a decade of the portrait from 1783 to the other one, that was about 10 years later, we get to see that transition in fashion and beauty aesthetics within two portraits of the same woman. So that was my, my cool thing that I did extra special for our New York guests.
- [50:16]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, that was really cool. That was really special. And I also love that you take us like behind the scenes. Right. And like the hidden galleries that you may or may not typically go to, you take us to part of the Met that has these extraordinary indigenous American pieces. We looked at a Yupik Silga parka, which is the way that it's displayed. You get to see it from all sides. That's such a beautiful gallery. And there's so many, many special dress pieces in that section. You also take us into the open storage, which is so fun. So highly recommend April's tours, dress listeners, and getting on them before she leaves us to Paris in the spring.
- [50:54]
April Callahan
Yeah. So I will be running them again in January and February. I haven't posted those dates yet, but I'll probably do that before this episode airs, so you guys can jump on.
- [51:01]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. And if you want to learn more about that pivotal period in fashion history, please join me for my class in January. We're going about to talk, talk all about it. And then we actually concluded our day with our very special, always such a treat visit to the Antonio Roddy Textile center, which is a really special department in the Metropolitan Museum of Art that has over 30,000 textile related objects. And they basically house the textile related objects from all of the departments at the Metropolitan Museum of Art that are not the Costume Institute. The Costume Institute is very much its own department with its own storage. So the Antonia Roddy center has this incredible range. And I will have to say this is the hardest thing I have ever done was picking a selection of 10 to 12 objects from around the world and throughout history. So what ended up happening was that this became highlights of some of my favorite pieces in the Antonio Roddy Center. We went to Britain, we went to Japan, we went to China, we went to India. And I can't, I don't have time to talk about everything we saw today, but I will highlight a few of my favorite objects, starting with what was one of the most special experiences for me because we got to look at one of my all time favorite pieces in the history of fashion ever. We got to see it on display. It's actually housed on a hidden mount. It has its own special storage space, but they put a window into it so you can see it. But we got to come face to face with this 7th 19th century men's jama from India. Now, if you don't know what a jama is? It's essentially a robe, a long sleeve robe with a kind of more fitted bodice that's attached to a long pleated, flowing skirt that probably extends about to the wearer's ankle. And this particular drama fastens on one side. This was essentially a ubiquitous garment worn by Indian nobility from let's say the 16th centuries into maybe the 19th century. It was thought to have been brought to India from the Mughal rulers who ruled over the Indian peninsula from that period. And it's specifically the great Mughal emperor Akbar, who ruled from 1586 to 1605, who is thought to have brought this style into fashion. And he was an incredible patron of the arts. He was also actually quite a fashionista. He loved fashion, he loved getting dressed, he loved textiles. And because he loved it so much, he actually made it part of his mission. Mission to bolster the country's textile and fashion trades. And he did so by focusing on the Kashmiri shawl industry, which as we know became a huge craze in 18th and 19th century, not just Europe, but it was already a craze across India and across Asia. And. And we got to actually see a real cashmere made in cashmere shawl. But we also got to see this incredible drama which is. Is. I'll post a picture of it. It has this gold leaf hand painted detail on it. And then the entire thing is hand painted. The entire thing. So it was just such a treat to see. And also we got to see one of my favorite kimonos in the collection, which is this incredible young girls kimono. It's this blue gradient. It's like a light summer kimono. It's hand painted with koi fish. And it's just one of my favorite things in the collection. And just such a treat. Thank you as always to Eva and Eva as well as Michelle and Philip for making this such a special visit, as always.
- [54:30]
April Callahan
Yes. And people, a lot of people don't know that the Antonio Roddy center is actually there for the public. If you have a valid research request, you can actually go in and request again, very much supervised to actually examine. And you don't get to touch them, but you do get to get up close and examine the objects that are in that collection. It is there as a public resource. So if you are in textiles or textile history or a textile researcher, just know that that institution is actually there for you.
- [55:03]
Cassidy Zachary
And they love, love visitors. So we'll put a link to it in our show notes, but you can definitely reach out to them. And also you can can if you can't make it there in person, you can head to their incredible website. The Metropolitan Museum has such an incredible online digitized database and check out check out their collection there. So wow, three jam packed days.
- [55:24]
April Callahan
Okay dress listeners, so I think that actually wraps it up an hour episode ish into our recap of our December 2025 New York City Day tours. And of course we are hoping to do these again in 2026. So this is just a little taste of what you might experience if you join us at that time. No firm dates on those yet, but again if you want to just periodically check our website which is of course dresshistory.com we post those there. And also our newsletter. You can sign up for our newsletter where we always first announce upcoming trips.
- [56:01]
Cassidy Zachary
And tours including our Paris 2026 tours which will be coming your way later next year. So again send us an email@hellorusthistory.com or join our newsletter for the first to know. And also just a very special thank you of course to everyone who made our New York City Day tours possible and everyone who joined us on our New York City Day tours. It is such a treat and especially as we come into the end of this season and we start looking back on the year and start thinking about all the things you're grateful for. We are so grateful for all of our listeners and to get to meet some of you in person. Right? But even if we can't meet you in person, the fact that you listen to our show, you are the reason we do what we do and we love you and we thank you.
- [56:41]
April Callahan
Yes. Okay dress listeners, I think that does it for us this week. May you consider the legacy of fashion and the Big Apple next time you get dressed. If you would like to follow along with the social media content that Cass has so lovingly created for this episode, you can search the hashtag dressed574. That's dressed574. Please head to restpodcast on Instagram or Rest podcast without the underscore on Facebook to check out the visual content associated with each week's episodes.
- [57:17]
Cassidy Zachary
And remember, we always love hearing from you. So if you'd like to write to us, you can do so@hellorusthistory.com DressedHistory.com is also our website where you can sign up for our monthly newsletter, our our in person tours and online fashion history courses. And you can check out whatever else we have up our finely tailored sleeves.
- [57:35]
April Callahan
We get so many questions from you all about our recommendations for fashion history books. So if you are interested you can always find a link in our show notes to our Bookshop Bookshelf. So that address is bookshop.org shop dress and there you can find over 150 of our our favorite fashion history titles.
- [57:56]
Cassidy Zachary
And do you love Dressed but want to skip the ads? You can now sign up for ad free listening with any tier on our Dressed History Patreon.
- [58:04]
April Callahan
We are also excited to now be part of the Airwave Network and their premium ad free history subscription Airwave History plus available on Apple Podcasts. The subscription brings dressed and also 27 other popular history podcasts ad free for just $5.99 per month. More information on Patreon and Airwave is available at the link in our bio.
- [58:28]
Cassidy Zachary
Thank you as always for tuning in and more Dressed coming your way very soon. The History of Fashion is a production of Dressed Media.
- [58:39]
April Callahan
Steve Cubine and Nan McNamara's podcast From Beneath the Hollywood Sign I pulls out a box and gives McAllister a ring, saying, here's something to remember me by. Daryl Zanuck Hit the roof. Mary Aster has been keeping a diary. This torrid affair with George S. Kaufman is chronicled on a daily basis, talking.
- [58:59]
Cassidy Zachary
About the actors and actresses who won.
- [59:02]
April Callahan
An Oscar on their very first film. Get your fix of old Hollywood on the podcast From Beneath the Hollywood Sign.