← Dressed: The History of Fashion
Dressed: The History of Fashion
How to Be a Gentleman: Etiquette Tips from the Refined Men of History
00:51:08
Loading summary
Transcript139 lines
- [00:01]
A
When it comes to gifting, everyone on your list deserves something special. Luckily, Marshall's buyers travel far and wide, hustling for great deals and amazing gifts so you don't have to. That means your mom gets that cashmere sweater, your best friend that Italian leather bag, your co workers unwrap their favorite beauty brands, and your nephews the coolest new toys. Go ahead. A price is this good, you can grab something for yourself, too. Marshalls, we get the deals. You gift the good stuff. Shop now@marshalls.com or find a store near you. Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax, and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts. Dress the history of Fashion is a production of dress media. With over 8 billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day, we all get dressed.
- [01:16]
B
Welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast that explores the who, what, when of why we wear. We are friends, family fashion historians, and.
- [01:24]
A
Your hosts, Cassie Zachary and April Callahan. Dress listeners, have you heard about the new epidemic, the one that's being spread by women? Oh, you haven't? Well, apparently it's called the male loneliness epidemic, and it's where some men can't find women who will date them. And we at Dressed might have some tips for you. I am being extremely sarcastic, of course, and I'm sure that most of our listeners are very familiar with the present discourse on this topic, which basically centers around the growth of women's autonomy over the last 50 years or so and also women's disinterest in participating in relationships where they are undervalued, dismissed, and taken advantage of in a multitude of ways.
- [02:09]
B
Yeah, and I just want to say we haven't really talked about this episode prior to recording today, but this is like such. It's. I don't even want to say it's a fascinating phenomenon because it's so incredibly offensive, but it's also right on brand with the state of our world these days, that somehow the fact that you're single as a young man is women's fault and not your own.
- [02:30]
A
Yeah.
- [02:31]
B
And it's actually very hard to believe that until the Equal Credit Opportunity act was passed by Congress in 1974, so 51 years ago, women in the United States were not legally granted the right to their own bank accounts or credit cards issued in their own name without a male co signer. And there were some exceptions to this rule, of course, but that is not the topic of our episode today. We actually bring this up to underscore the importance of financial independence in women living their lives with or without a partner as they see fit, as they so choose.
- [03:05]
A
Yes. So in light of the current backlash against women's rights taking place all around the world, and particularly swirling around women's healthcare and reproductive rights in the United States currently, I propose the utterly radical, completely unprecedented notion that perhaps, just perhaps, if those men having trouble finding dates would, you know, just treat women better and shift their mindset to women not only being human beings, but also equals, they might, just might find their way into those relationships they keep claiming that they want to have. So to this aim, I dedicate this episode to helping them out with tips and advice from the functionably refined men of history on how to be a gentleman and dress listeners. I am not without bitterness. I acknowledge this in terms of the current state of affairs of women's rights currently. So this episode shall henceforth be infused with a healthy dose of sarcasm. And I just want to say if these manosphere podcasters get to spout outright misogyny, at the very least I'm entitled to a little bit of snark. And that is probably being quite generous.
- [04:19]
B
Well said. And dress listeners with that, a caveat that this episode is actually meant to be light, even humorous. Right? Are these men actually going to listen to this podcast?
- [04:30]
A
No.
- [04:31]
B
No.
- [04:31]
A
They are not our audience.
- [04:33]
B
They are not our audience. You are our audience. So this is a light, right, humorous look at historic men's etiquette. And. And we also want to fully acknowledge that we obviously are going to be Looking at the pre1974 equal credit opportunity act era, where society was very much dictated by those traditional gender roles for both men and women, that we have really worked very hard over the last 50 years or a hundred years to challenge and change. So we are not in any way suggesting we go back to that time period in any shape or form, rather, that maybe men today could learn a thing or two from the past when being a gentleman was part and parcel to how you treated women. Of course, dress listeners, we've received so many listener mails and comments from all of you saying how much you enjoyed our past episodes on historic etiquette codes. We did one in 2020 on the etiquette of calling, so the paying and repaying of house visits in the 19th century. Also, there was one in 2023 on party etiquette during the Gilded Age, and it's actually been a full two years since we have done a new etiquette episode. So we are actually indulging your request here this week with one directly aimed at the proper modes and manners of men. And April, I know that you love these research deep dives as much as I do, so maybe you would tell us about who, when and where the etiquette tips proffered in this episode will be coming from.
- [05:53]
A
Oh, yes. First of all, I pulled some etiquette books from the 19th century which were specifically geared and written for a man. A few to note, and these are just a few, are Manners for men from 1897 by Mrs. Humphrey, the gentleman's Book of Etiquette and Manual of Politeness by Cecil B. Hartley from 1860, the Young Man's Guide by William A. Alcott from 1849, and even one from the 18th century called Principles of Politeness and Knowing of the World by Lord Chesterfield from 1798. And I ended up using this one less, however, because it was a bit pedantic and let's just say the written word has changed a little bit since then. But I did make a very fun discovery of another compendium of historic etiquette advice which was assembled together by Sarah kortem in the 1980s. It wasn't actually published until 1995 as Wicked Etiquette. But I just want to say I am not one to look a gift horse in the mouth because she cites all of her primary sources in it for each and every entry. And I went ahead and I double checked a couple of them, verified them, and they were correct. So some of the pieces of advice in this episode also come from Sarah's very cool Etiquette compendium and Dress listeners.
- [07:11]
B
This list of titles really underscores how etiquette books were incredibly popular in centuries past, particularly in the 19th century. And we need to remember that the middle classes in Europe and America expanded rapidly during the 19th century. And this is a big part of the reason why etiquette books were so in demand at this time. If you weren't necessarily raised quote unquote in the know, you could just buy a book in theory that delineated rules on the proper way to move throughout the world. And these books covered all Sorts of events and occasions from things we consider pretty standard today, like table manners, wedding etiquette, or how to console a bereaved friend. But also, more than a few topics that we would consider, I guess you could say rather niche today, maybe less familiar.
- [08:00]
A
And today we might eek into some of those niche topics, but by and large, I've really stuck to the basics, organizing them into categories of fashionable manners from history, which apply to men's interactions with women. And, Cass, you know this. I told you this yesterday. I actually have a ton more research on this topic on general manners, men's hygiene, fashion proper, and a whole bunch of other topics. But if we got into all of these, we would be here for hours. So, listeners, if you enjoy this episode and you would like another one on men's historic etiquette codes, let us know and I can do a part two at a later date. Okay, I will also say this. If we have time today, I might throw in a couple of words to the wise, to women, which I found in these gentlemen's etiquette books as well. They do reveal that some things never change.
- [08:53]
B
Be warned.
- [08:54]
A
Yeah. But first, in our remedial efforts to cure the male loneliness epidemic, let's begin with some tips on basic manners in interactions with women. Cass, would you like to do the first honors?
- [09:07]
B
Yes, I would. April. So our first Source comes from Mrs. Humphrey in 1897, who writes of common encounters in public of this time. She writes, quote, should a man be so fortunate as to be of some service to any lady in the street, such as picking up a parcel or sunshine shade she may have dropped, or helping her out of any small difficulty, he must raise his hat and withdraw at once. Such trifling acts as these do not by any means constitute an acquaintanceship. And to remain by her side when the incident is over would look like presuming on what he had done, as though it gave him a right to her continued acknowledgments. This would be ungentlemanly. So, translation, if you enact a small act of service. Gentlemen, young gentlemen of today, young men of today, to a woman you do not know, this does not grant you the right to expect any further interaction. Move along, friend. Yes, and this applies to both then and now, Right? So you are not entitled to a woman's good graces just because you compliment her or open a door for her. You are still a stranger, sir.
- [10:12]
A
Thank you very much, gentlemen. And also this sentiment is further echoed again by Mrs. Humphries in a following scenario that she details which is, I think, is quite interesting. She writes, quote, a young man once asked me if it would be etiquette to offer an unknown lady an umbrella in the street, supposing that she was in need of one. I replied, no lady would accept the offer from a stranger, and the other sort of person might never return the umbrella. And then she goes on to say, in large towns, women of breeding soon learn to view casual attentions from well dressed men with the deepest distrust they would suffer any amount of inconvenience rather than accept a favor from a stranger, knowing that so many men make it their amusement to prowl about the streets looking after pretty faces and graceful figures and forcing their attentions on the owners. End quote. Okay, translation. Women cannot trust the intention of strangers who approach them in the streets. And Cass, living in New York City, I cannot say how true this still remains to this very day. Whenever I have had friends that have moved to New York for the first time, I always tell them that anyone who approaches you in the street, 99% chance they want. Either they're crazy or they want something rather unsavory from you. So ignore them. Be rude if you have to, just walk away. Because whatever is about to happen next isn't actually something that you're going to want to happen. And I do think there's an exception to the rule here and there, because once you've been here for a bit, you can start to suss out certain actual genuine interactions. It's just best to ignore these quote, unquote Attentions, as Mrs. Humphrey calls them, and go about your business.
- [12:02]
B
Yeah. And April, I wish I had that advice when I first moved to New York City as an young, impressionable grad student in 2010, because I actually did, out of politeness, decide to give a man the time of day while waiting for the subway. And, I mean, he started out nice, and then he started talking about women's menstruation and women being bitches. It just went. Yeah, yeah. So you learn quickly to pop your earbuds in, Right? As many New Yorkers do, and continue your commute in isolation.
- [12:33]
A
Yes, yes.
- [12:36]
B
But of course, etiquette changes. According to these historic manuals, when a woman you do not know, gentlemen, is actually in the company of a friend that you do know.
- [12:47]
A
Yes. And this is actually one of the most niche practices that I uncovered in my research. According to Ethel Bearing Brandt in Standard Etiquette for all occasions from 1925, the right hand of a gentleman is the place occupied by his wife and ladies of her Class, either in walking or driving, any woman seen on his left hand may be taken for someone outside social recognition. End quote. Translation one, because this is a doozy, there's a couple of things at play here. First up, long standing codes of chivalry have dictated for hundreds of years that a man should place a woman at his right when walking in urban areas to historically protect her from any waste or water being discarded from the windows of upper floors of a building as they pass. Now, it's thought of similarly as protecting a woman from passing traffic or a potential curb splash caused by traffic. But, Cass, funnily enough, this actually happened for me the other day. It was not a curb splash, but rather I was headed somewhere on Thanksgiving with one of my closest male friends. And because there were a lot of people on the sidewalk around us, he was behind me at first. And then when it cleared out, he ended up being on my right. And this fact, he got nervous about it. I felt him get nervous about it, and he quickly went out of his way to move to the other side of me to have me on his right. And I noticed this. He did it on purpose. And we do pay attention to these things, guys. It's not really that hard to show a woman that you respect her by these small gestures of etiquette.
- [14:28]
B
And we're also talking about all these young men who don't have manners, right? Obviously, chivalry is still alive and well today. There are plenty of men who follow these codes, right? These values that were instilled in them probably by their mothers. And so you said that there, you hinted that there are multiple translations of this, right? So translation two pertains to Ethel's mention of being a woman on that left hand side of that woman being quote, unquote, outside of social recognition. And this is where things get a little ooh la la. And we covered this once before in one of our past etiquette episodes. But well into the 20th century, it was actually considered impolite to introduce two people without asking privately in advance first, particularly if one or both of these individuals were of high social standing. So once formally introduced, it was a formal acknowledgment of an association that really reflected on your own reputation. Casual introductions were not done. And in this case, how this is worded, she says a woman outside social recognition to us means mistress. So perhaps an actress or showgirl of the era who were frequently the mistresses of wealthy men.
- [15:42]
A
Another topic that we have spoken about many times on the show, because these actresses or showgirls were often the most fashion forward and financially independent women of their respective eras, but it would not be deemed proper for them to mix in certain social circles. So keeping her on his left was an outward expression of the role in his life.
- [16:06]
B
Yeah, and I have a question about this, because if you're that man with that woman, you would be on her. She would still be on your right hand side. You're not going to put her on the left and offend her. Don't you feel like this is what this author wants men to do with these women? In reality, they would have treated them more respectfully. Or at least I would hope they would have treated them more respectfully.
- [16:26]
A
Maybe I'll go down the rabbit hole further on this one at some point when I have in all my spare time, see what I can find out about that. Okay, moving on. But what if the woman with your friend is on the right side of him, but you know that it's not his wife? This implies that she is an acquaintance of some social standing and that has.
- [16:48]
B
Its own etiquette too. Again, back to Mrs. Humphries who declares this is a quote unquote test of good breeding. And she goes on to say to those uninitiated in the ways of society, it would naturally appear the right thing to give as cordial a greeting as possible. Therefore, the hand is held out even on introduction to a perfect stranger. This is wrong. The first move in the direction of cordiality must come from the lady. The whole code of behavior being passed on, the assumption being based on the assumption that she is the social superior. A well mannered man never puts out his hand in greeting until a lady extends hers. So translation, A woman must acknowledge her wish to get to know you before you attempt to get to know her. It is she who holds the right to agree and initiate an introduction.
- [17:36]
A
Okay, this is super fun. Let's see we have more etiquette for the street from Mrs. Annie R. White in her book Polite Society at Home and abroad from 1891. But this time it's on the occasion of the man and the woman actually knowing each other. She writes, quote, if a lady and gentleman are walking arm in arm, they should keep step. The gentleman must adapt his long stride to her shorter steps, else they have a curious appearance. End quote. Translation, don't be my ex boyfriend. This would drive me crazy when he would do this and it made me feel like he was oblivious to like what was going on with me spatially and physically. Being taller than me, he really outpaced me Two to one. And I was always asking him if he could slow down a bit. And Cass, you know this. I'm a New Yorker. I do not walk slow. I walk fast. On our trips in Paris, if I'm leading a group, sometimes people are always like, april, slow down. I'm like, oh, I'm in New York walk mode. Sorry.
- [18:40]
B
But.
- [18:40]
A
But I would also say that this consideration applies to any companion that you're with walking down the street, not just between a man and a woman. And just a little awareness on this point of pacing or outpacing somebody creates a point of ease and goodwill in any type of relationship or friendship.
- [19:00]
B
Yes, absolutely.
- [19:01]
A
Okay, what else do we got for these mean streets? Cass?
- [19:04]
B
So Frederic Ridal, in his 1907 book Don'ts for Everybody, actually has some advice for you. Walking down the street with, say, a friend or a romantic companion, and he tells the gents, quote, don't be continually talking about what a great beau you were in your younger days. That you are still unmarried is sufficient evidence that you were at least an unsuccessful one.
- [19:29]
A
Okay, okay. I have seen these guys on dating apps. They are still out there. Enough said. We're not going to give them any more attention. We're going to move on.
- [19:38]
B
Okay, Moving on. Alex M. Go advises us in 1873 in their book Good Morals and Gentle Manners. Quote, when a lady appears on the street with a veil over her face, it may sometimes be a sign that she does not wish to be recognized. An acquaintance may pass her as a stranger without either giving or taking offense. Translation, move on. And also, please bring back veils. Why did they ever fall out of fashion in the first place?
- [20:05]
A
Agreed. And also too, in the time that we're living in now, maybe they're a most fashionable way to avoid facial recognition technologies if you are so inclined. All right, we're going to hear again now from our now new bestie, Mrs. Humphries. From her, we learn in passing, ladies on the promenade, in the street or park, if a man chance to be smoking, he always takes his cigar out of his mouth, replacing it when the lady or ladies have passed on in the crowded streets of great cities. This, if carried out in full entirety, would be too much. Therefore, it is observed only with reference to such ladies as they pass the smoker quite closely. And then she goes on quoting an acquaintance. I know he is a gentleman, said a girl once of a good looking young fellow whose appearance had pleased her. I know he's a gentleman, for he stopped smoking directly when he saw us. And then she goes on to say, it is in the observance of little things of this kind that one shows clearly one's breeding or lack of.
- [21:08]
B
And Mrs. Annie R. White, who we cited previously agrees with this. She writes, quote, no gentleman is guilty of smoking who when walking or riding with a lady, it leaves the impression with others that she is of secondary importance to his cigar. Translation While perhaps a bit outdated today is the presumption that women do not smoke or even drink, as most did not in the 19th century especially and early 20th centuries this was considered to be the exclusive domain of men. And the women who did smoke and drink, they were actually considered quite daring and bold and so more on that in a bit actually. But even still today it's considered a polite gesture by smokers to inquire first if anyone around them minds them smoking. And I'm curious, April, what are your thoughts on this?
- [21:56]
A
I personally don't smoke, but most often I don't mind if people around me are smoking, especially if we're outside. But when someone asks if I mind before they light up, I'm always very impressed by their thoughtfulness in advance, as I am also today when a gentleman sees me to a waiting car or taxi or even to the subway. This actually has been a long standing practice dating back centuries when men would attend to women getting in their horse drawn carriages. The Young Man's Guide by William a. Alcott from 1849 advises if a gentleman, quote, wishes to see any lady to her carriage, he asks her permission to do so, folds her wraps around her, hands her in and stands until the carriage has gone some yards away. End quote. And this is quite interesting because I did also look at some more contemporary etiquette books for men from like around the 1960s or so. And this last little bit that the gentleman should linger as the vehicle takes off a bit, comes up again and again. And we do see this in older movies I recognize sometimes I'd never really given much thought on it until now.
- [23:06]
B
Yeah, and actually it reminds me of my parents because they always wait till I enter my door before leaving. Oh that's nice if they drop me off at my house just to make sure you got in the door safely.
- [23:16]
A
So what else do we have? Cass? I do believe that we have some silliness to recommend as well, but we're going to get to that right after this. Sponsor break.
- [23:30]
B
Calling all sustainability minded shoppers this season, join April and I in completing our gift list with quince from men's and womenswear and clothes for kids to a wide variety of home, beauty and wellness products. Quints should be your first stop for gifting this season.
- [23:45]
A
Cas. I have been having friends over quite a bit lately and I know that I can always count on my apartment smelling amazing with quince candles. My personal favorite at the moment is their wild heirloom tomato scent. And you know, not to mention we love quince because they work directly with ethical top tier factories so they can skip the retail middlemen and offer prices for 50% less than similar brands.
- [24:10]
B
Yes, and I've been bundling up this fall season with my gray Mongolian cashmere beanie and matching gloves and I love them so much that I got a matching one for Leo and as you know, dress listeners, Leo's three And Leo's is actually a little different because it's washable, which if you have a three year old you know is a necessity.
- [24:28]
A
Yes. So join us. This holiday season you'll find gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quints. Go to quint.com dressed for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's q-u I n c e.com dressed to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com dressed dressed listeners stumped for a gift idea for a certain loved one? Because you feel like you've exhausted your typical gift list. How about this year you give them the most precious gift of all. Memories of your times together. This is where Skylight Frame comes in.
- [25:08]
B
Skylight Frame is a digital picture frame you can send photos to and they appear in seconds. You can preload a Skylight Frame with tons of your favorite pics so when the recipient opens it, the frame is already full of special moments. And I have to say my family is obsessed with our Skylight Frame. We watch it every day like TV because it's so fun to revisit these precious memories together. And the Skylight Frame is personal, it's meaningful and it's so easy to use that even the least tech savvy person in your family will love it.
- [25:37]
A
And Cas, you know I'm not tech savvy, so I really appreciated how Skylight Frame's quick one minute setup was super easy for me. You don't need an app or a subscription and if you aren't happy with your frame, you can return it within four months for a full refund, no questions asked.
- [25:54]
B
And right now Skylight is offering our listeners $20 off their 10 inch frames by going to myskylight.com dressed go to myskylight.com dressed for dol your 10 inch frame. That's my S K-Y-L-I G-H-T.com dressed.
- [26:15]
A
Welcome back, listeners. As mentioned previously, Cas, some of the advice to men gleaned from these manuals might raise a few eyebrows today because it's either funny or silly to us now. So dress listeners, please do indulge us in a couple of these. Just a couple. My favorite actually pertains to you and I a bit, cass. It's from Ms. Leslie's behavior book and advises a gentleman that quote, never tell an authoress that quote you are afraid of her or entreat her to not put you in a book. Be assured there is no danger. Okay, Translation. I cannot decide whether she's being shady here or not. Is she telling us first that the authoress or lady authority, they don't pose danger to men? Or is she saying if you are dumb enough to ask shit like this, she knows you're not worth putting in her book? I know which of these interpretations I like better, but what are your thoughts on this, Cass?
- [27:14]
B
I guess I'm gonna need more context here because what type of book is she talking about? Is this a period where people are writing a lot of memoirs? Where they're writing about society and even.
- [27:24]
A
Fiction, like basing a character off of that person? I guess men were afraid of the power of a lady with a pe. That's the gist of it.
- [27:32]
B
They should be.
- [27:32]
A
Or a microphone in our case.
- [27:35]
B
Yes. Also curious about your thoughts on this one, April. So Professor B.G. jeffries and J.L. nichols advised their gentlemanly readers in their 1896 book Searchlights on Health quote to keep a lady's company six months is a public announcement of an engagement.
- [27:52]
A
Ooh, I'm gonna hard pass on that one. I get it. Times are different now, and even now it does work out for some people to get married rather quickly. But my personal opinion, and this is how I've always practiced my life is do you really even know somebody until you've been dating for at least a year? I don't know. Just saying.
- [28:14]
B
Yeah, I'm trying to do the math. Sean and I dated for seven years before we got married. And this is even more interesting within the context of how people kept each other's company historically, because in the 1890s when this book would have been written, men and women were not going on dates as we would recognize them today. Getting to know a lady would have been almost always within the company of others as to have been alone together prior to marriage would have been considered entirely inappropriate. Quite scandalous, the intrigue. Yes.
- [28:45]
A
We also have more marriage advice from, again, Lord Chesterfield. His next tip is, quote, if a woman has had more than four husbands, she poisons them. Avoid her end quote. Translation. Pretty solid advice. No notes, Lord Chesterfield.
- [29:03]
B
And just to clarify, historically, divorce, right, was entirely unacceptable, depending on what era you're looking at. So for a woman to have had four husbands would have meant that they had all died. It's the poison reference. And you, of course, move later into the 20th century, women gained more autonomy. The meaning of that changes people like Elizabeth Taylor. I'm looking at you. I think she was married something like eight times to seven different men. She married Richard Burton twice. So context is important.
- [29:32]
A
Yes. And Cass, up until now we have been focusing on tips from men in terms of their dealings with women on the street or in conversation. But should we now transition on to some other topics of potential interest? Let's move from the streets and into the dining room, shall we? Because this is a very likely meeting place, social setting for gentlemen and ladies historically.
- [29:56]
B
Let's do it. And what of his table manners? Well, when first seated, particularly at a dinner party, Francis W. Croninshield advises men in 1909 in his book Manners for the Metropolis. Quote, when you sit down at a table, it is not necessary to whisk the napkin gaily about before unfolding it. The concealed roll is certain to fly a considerable distance before alighting and may even crack the enameling on one of the great ladies at the banquet. This is actually a really interesting find, April, because dress listeners, you probably recognize that reference to a lady's enameling. It's a subject that we have discussed a couple different times. There's the past dress episode from 2022 about the British cosmetics maven con artist Madame Rachel, who practiced the rarefied art of enameling, or painting her client's skin to appear more pale. And it was a practice combined largely to the upper classes for balls and formal events, but did also have the downside that paint could actually crack.
- [31:01]
A
Yes.
- [31:02]
B
So women had to be quite stationary if they took their cosmetic practice to this degree and apparently careful around gentlemen with napkins, with their napkins. And actually, Francis might even be making a historical reference himself to this makeup practice, as Madame Rachel was doing this decades prior in the 1860s. But we also did talk about enameling a bit in our episode on Madame X, as she also engaged in what was considered to be extreme cosmetic art.
- [31:30]
A
Practice in the 1880s, which is presumably again, enameling.
- [31:35]
B
Yes.
- [31:35]
A
And I do love it when our episodes come full circle like this.
- [31:38]
B
Yeah.
- [31:40]
A
Okay, now that our gentleman is seated at the table and has not waved his napkin around, what is Next in the 1890s advice book, as others see us, Its anonymous author cautions us to, quote, never turn the spoon over and look at yourself in the bowl. It is the action of a clown. Wow. Did enough people do this that it was a problem that was worthy of being in print? I have never thought of looking, like, turning my spoon over and looking at myself in the back of the spoon.
- [32:12]
B
It's probably like, you know how women have compacts?
- [32:14]
A
Oh, I guess so.
- [32:15]
B
To get a glimpse of your reflection. But it's always distorted. Like, I did it when I was a very little kid.
- [32:20]
A
Yeah. And I guess too, like, the prevalence of mirrors for us today may be more common and also our phones. So there's that. But I don't know. Another thing that I did not note, Cass, was that it is, quote, very vulgar to stand up to cars. And I don't mean would, basically, if a man were bestowed the honor of carving a bird or other meat for individual servings at the table, it was supposed to be done seated. And I was like, okay, that's interesting. But this actually comes up again as another pressing manner of etiquette in that 18th century etiquette book that I mentioned previously because it advises that, quote, a well bred man ought to know how to carve well, end quote. And then it goes on to explain, if the carver doesn't know how to carve, quote, we are always in pain for a man who, instead of cutting up a foul, genteely, is hacking for half an hour across the bone, greasing himself and bespattering the company with sauce. Translation. This could have come in handy for some of us at Thanksgiving recently.
- [33:27]
B
Good to know.
- [33:27]
A
For next year, practice your carving seated friends.
- [33:32]
B
Also good to know are some tips related to the consumption of corn. Corn on the cob, to be exact. So in 1843, Charles William Day informed us in his hints on etiquette that, quote, it is not elegant to gnaw Indian corn. The kernel should be scored with a knife, scraped off into the plate, and then eaten with a fork. Ladies should be particularly careful how they manage to ticklish a dainty. And I guess dainty is the food they're eating, lest the exhibition rub off a little desirable romance. So basically, it's not attractive, right? To gnaw on a corn on the cob. Don't eat it with your hands. And not to toot my own etiquette, horn or corn.
- [34:12]
A
I actually love pun.
- [34:14]
B
I had to get one in here. I actually love cutting corn off the cob because it's maybe less because of etiquette and more because I hate having the kernels stuck in my teeth. I don't know how many people out there agree with me, but I do. Eating it that way anyways. And then I actually gnaw in the corn that's left on the cob.
- [34:31]
A
Wait, that cancels out your previous action. Just saying.
- [34:35]
B
Well, it's like sweet and it's like less sticky. I don't know how to explain it anyways.
- [34:40]
A
You do you babe.
- [34:41]
B
Well, stop imagining me. Corn on the cob. What do we have next on the table?
- [34:46]
A
April, Happy to serve that right up after this short sponsor break. Coca Cola for the big. For the small, the short and the tall. Peacemakers. Risk takers for the optimists, pessimists for long distance love for introverts and extroverts, the thinkers and the doers for old friends and new Coca Cola for everyone. Pick up some Coca Cola at a store near you.
- [35:28]
B
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast Smart move. Being financially savvy Smart move. Another smart move having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts, and savings and eligibility vary by state.
- [36:00]
A
Welcome back. Our next case is a curious one. Cass, that pretty much goes against common practice today. In 1937, Viola Tree cautioned in her book can I help you? That quote only idiots swallow oysters. Epicures bite them as if they were chicken. End quote. Oh, okay. I looked into this one and it seems that her advice to bite them as if they were chicken might be rather exaggerated here because some sources advise to put the oyster in your mouth and maybe chew it once or twice while in your mouth before swallowing it. But none of them advise to bite it into it like chicken. And also too, I am a big fan of oysters. I eat a lot of oysters and I feel like this would be extremely tricky because of the texture of the oysters. Right. It would all of a sudden turn into this potentially messy situation which is of course always inelegant.
- [37:00]
B
Yeah, I Always put my lemon in there and my little horseradish, and then I slurp it in and swallow it whole. Maybe I'll take a bite. Maybe one bite. But yeah, it that does. That's not conducive to eating oysters. And interesting. Equally inelegant as chomping on your oyster in Genevieve Antoine Dio's opinion, cited in her 1970 book Accent on Elegance. The most contemporary source we will cite in this episode, by the way, is that a gentleman should, quote, never demonstrate your physical strength by crushing a walnut in your fist or in the crook of your arm. Never in a restaurant, at least. Again, is this really happening that often that people are writing about it? I guess so.
- [37:44]
A
Maybe in her social circles. I don't think I've ever seen anybody do this ever.
- [37:50]
B
Now back to that question I had earlier about what authoress is writing about gentlemen in books. Maybe it's these etiquette books. These are. These women are writing about men that they know doing weird shit in their etiquette book. Swallow their oysters whole, carve turkey standing up, and also crush walnuts in their elbow.
- [38:13]
A
Okay, we have another one which actually might be the most shocking practice I discovered working on this episode. It was in another anonymous writer's 1888 book, which was entitled the Successful Housekeeper. The author talks about what seems today to us would have been a rather uncouth practice of the title. This person writes, the change of plates is kaleidoscopic. You take your soup in Sevres, your entrees in England or Dresden, and so on till you come to fruit in China or Japan. It is quite en regale, meaning amusing or trendy. That's what it translates to in these aesthetic times to turn your plate over with a sapient air of a connoisseur and study the marks thereon inscribed. But it is well to avoid the catastrophe which befell an absent minded man who forgot that he had been helped, reversed his plate and bestowed one of Delmonico's Boucher a la reine upon his neighbor's satin petticoat. End quote. Okay, so just a little bit of explanation here. We are talking about dishware, right? We are talking about plates, porcelain ware, etc. At the dinner table. And people were turning them over to see who the maker was during the meal. And this was supposedly like a trendy thing to do that seems wild and desperately snobbish. Also, too, this quote is interesting because they're referring to Delmonico's, which is a very long standing, like steakhouse Here in New York City. And that dish that they're talking about, boucherine, it's the French version of what we would call a pot pie, essentially.
- [39:52]
B
Oh, that's hilarious.
- [39:54]
A
So he turned his bowl over and he was served pot pie. And then it, like, went all over the guest next to him.
- [40:01]
B
Mike Gates says these authors actually have funny real life stories to tell. That's what I'm realizing now is that these have happened to them. These are their dating horror stories, y'.
- [40:10]
A
All very specific stories we have here. Okay, so, Cass, do we have any last few pieces of advice for gentlemen who find themselves dining with dates?
- [40:20]
B
We do. And presumably this has to do with the end of the meal after the dessert course, which comes to us from S.A. frost in their 1869 book, Frost's Laws and Bylaws of American Society, which declares, quote, none but a low bred clown will ever carry fruit or bon bons away from the table. Oh, no. No bon bons for late, sorry, dress listeners. Apparently the letter of the law says says no. Oh, my God, my mom would die if she could not take home dessert.
- [40:52]
A
Yeah.
- [40:52]
B
From the restaurant.
- [40:54]
A
A little sad. Okay, last but not least, our final rule of dining, and I'm not even gonna cite the source for this, because it is such a ubiquitous piece of etiquette across the board in all of these sources I was looking at, was to not eat too quickly. Manners dictate that you follow the pace at which your host or host hostess is eating today. I suppose that would also apply to generally being aware of the pace of your fellow dining companions if you are out at a restaurant, et cetera. Not unlike being aware of your walking companions pace that we referenced earlier. I also did, at the top of this episode, say that we might deliver some tips to women, which I found in some of these etiquette books. Some of these are simply too good to let pass us by. So first up, for our ladies of historic kindred spirit in 1855, the quote, Women who smoke must drink something stronger than tea. Ah. I told you that women smoking in the 19th century was going to come back up, and this is where it does. So apparently, if you're a smoker, you're also a drinker. And if you're a drinker, you are probably also a smoker.
- [42:05]
B
Yes, I've been known to smoke some cigarettes when I drink. It's a social practice that I enjoy.
- [42:11]
A
Or in Paris, just saying.
- [42:12]
B
Yes. When I'm exclusively in Paris. This is actually really interesting because women smoking and even drinking publicly was really Taboo. Even into the 1920s, when you read about the quote, unquote, flappers, everyone's commenting about these women being out dancing and smoking and drinking, and it's so socially unacceptable, but they don't care. And they really, like, crashed that and changed all that. Right.
- [42:35]
A
And there's a lot of, like, satirical cartoons and illustrations of, like, the flappers smoking.
- [42:40]
B
Yeah, yeah. And then I feel like it, all of that lightens up. Right. In the 30s, 40s, 50s. Because by the 50s, you have men and women smoking everywhere.
- [42:48]
A
I would argue that partially has to do with the depiction of smoking in Hollywood, which was also quite linked to sponsorship by the tobacco brand. So it's all. All intertwined.
- [43:02]
B
Yep. And then you learn about them shipping cigarettes to the soldiers during World War II. So there's a lot that goes into that, but it's really interesting. And now it's, of course, gone out fashion again today.
- [43:11]
A
Maybe I should do smoking etiquette at some point.
- [43:14]
B
That'd be interesting because also the 1920s, and I've wanted to do a reel about this forever, there's a smoking diet, so they try to get women who are wanting. There's a new emphasis on women controlling their bodies because corsets are falling out of fashion. Right. So the dieting culture comes up, and one of the diets of the 1920s is a smoking diet. So, yeah, that would be really interesting. Smoking and fashion, too.
- [43:36]
A
Stick it in our cap for season nine.
- [43:39]
B
Yes. And another bit of advice from S.A. frost. In 1869, quote, it is a breach of etiquette for a lady to touch her baggage in a hotel after it is packed. There are plenty of servants to attend to it, and they should carry to the hack. Even the traveling shawl, satchel and railway novel. Nothing looks more awkward than to see a lady with both hands full stumbling up the steps of a hotel hack. And by hack, they mean carriage. Even a lady's reading materials must be carried to her cab by the hotel staff. And so this is 1869, so women are wearing crinolines. Right. So it would have been awkward in part.
- [44:17]
A
Yeah. It would be very difficult to carry anything more than a little. Perhaps a little small satchel.
- [44:21]
B
But, yeah. And of course, this practice is alive and well today, although perhaps not with the social faux pas should a lady carry her own luggage? But there very much are people who help you carry your luggage to and from at hotels today.
- [44:35]
A
Okay. Speaking of things that are not done in a book of that same name by Edgar and Diana woods in 1937, women are cautioned, quote, don't marry a man who has no time for dogs. 10 to 1, such a man will only have time for himself. End quote.
- [44:52]
B
Great advice.
- [44:53]
A
Same. I always say, if somebody doesn't like my pet. Yeah, no, sorry.
- [44:58]
B
Yeah. How you treat animals is really reflective of your character.
- [45:01]
A
Yeah. And I do get that some people are allergic, but my friend the other day, she came over, we were doing charcuterie and cheese and stuff. She just took a Benadryl before she came over and it was fine. Anyway. Okay. Our last but certainly not least and by far and away my favorite piece of advice for our sidebar into advice for women. This comes from. And get this manual's name. This. This is just something to think about. The deans of girls in Chicago high schools. This is. These are the authors. Their 1921 publication, Manners and Conduct in School and out. Their advice is. Avoid looking at a boy with your soul in your eyes.
- [45:44]
B
Guilty. Oh, my God. Don't wear your heart on your sleeves. Right.
- [45:50]
A
That one just like, I went right, right through my heart. I'm like, oh, we've all done that.
- [45:54]
B
Yeah.
- [45:56]
A
Sometimes it goes well and sometimes it doesn't.
- [45:59]
B
Yes.
- [46:00]
A
Admittedly, dress listeners, this episode was researched and written, as I said, in a fit of snark, but also with some glee and also the full awareness that traditional gender roles and expectations were part and parcel to these male etiquette practices. But that does not mean that there isn't something for all of us to learn here. And I also do want to be a bit serious here about this and recognize that the underlying concerns surrounding this male loneliness epidemic are not only real, they're also systemic. And the anger bubbling up from incel communities who get this cast, I don't know if you've read about this, are now referring to women as voids. Now, F O I D S. So it's a combination of feminine and voids.
- [46:46]
B
Oh, no.
- [46:47]
A
This is truly concerning. And also, there's a lot of marginalized people out there right now that need community and safe spaces. So let this episode serve as a reminder that sometimes it's just the smallest of gestures, the tiniest of actions that make the people around us feel safe and cared for. So something as simple as polishing up our manners a bit tells other people that they matter.
- [47:12]
B
Absolutely. And I think that actually, on that note, dress listeners, that does it for us today. May you consider how you treat your friends and loved ones in fine fashion next time you get dressed. Also, April, we have some new classes that just opened up for registration last week. Would you like to share a little bit more about yours?
- [47:32]
A
Sure. So coming this January 4th and 11th, 2026, I will be offering a course that I have been promising you all for years now entitled Hard Chic, the House of Schiaparelli. In two 90 minute sessions on Sundays, we'll explore the life, career and legacy of Elsa Schiaparelli. From her youth growing up in the Italian intelligentsia to a very difficult early marriage and her time spent in New York to her blossoming into an haute couturier after the age of 40. We're going to talk not just about Elsa herself, but also her collaborations with the surrealist artists and the design iconography of the Schiaparelli brand, which is of course alive and well today under the direction of Daniel Roseberry and Cass. I think you know this, but our listeners might not know this. Daniel is actually the alum of F.I.T. just Like Us. So if you are interested in signing up for my Schiaparelli class, which is going to be, I don't know, pretty chic, I would say maybe a little bit shocking, wink, wink. You can head over to dresshistory.com to sign up. And also if you would like to gift or receive the class this holiday season, we do have gift certificates available for not just my class, but Cassidy's class, which she's going to tell you about now.
- [48:52]
B
So dress listeners, what do Marie Antoinette, Jane Austen and a young Queen Victoria have in common? Well, you can find out in my upcoming four part course what Women Ward of the Revolution 1770s-1840s, where we are going to explore the evolution and revolution of women's fashion between the years of the 1770s to the 1840s. So we will first explore how the queen of fashion, Marie Antoinette, wielded fashion as a powerful tool during the early years of her reign before it was turned against her during the French Revolution where she sadly lost her life. And ironically, the simple chemise gown that she made popular in the years leading up to the revolution would survive the revolution even if she herself did not, transforming into a Grecian inspired corset free gown that embodied the post revolutionary enlightenment ideals of democracy and liberty. So those are our first two classes. For class three, we are going to move into the dawn of the 19th century and we will follow that thread over to England where versions of the chemise gown were worn in the real and storied worlds of one of the most beloved authors in history, Jane Austen. And then class four, we will conclude with exploring fashions as they evolved into the 1830s and 40s, so back in artificiality, supported by corsets, petticoats, and this is all gonna be explored through the lens of the early life and reign of Queen Victoria. So coming your way, Sundays after the conclusion of april's class starting January 18th.
- [50:20]
A
Yeah, so basically just set aside a little portion of your Sundays all throughout January and maybe a little smidge into February for fashion History class.
- [50:28]
B
Yes.
- [50:31]
A
My weekly fashion history tours of the Metropolitan Museum of Art are also now back in full swing and gift certificates are available for those as well. Again, dressedhistory.com for more information about all just mentioned, more Dressed coming your way soon. Please head to restpodcast on Instagram or rest Podcast without the underscore on Facebook to check out the visual content associated with each week's episodes.
- [50:59]
B
And remember, we always, always love hearing from you. So if you'd like to write to us, you can do so@hello dressedhistory.com dressedhistory.com is also our website where you can sign up for our monthly newsletter, our in person tours and online fashion history courses. And you can check out whatever else we have up our finely tailored sleeves.
- [51:17]
A
We get so many questions from you all about our recommendations for fashion history books, so if you are interested you can always find a link in our show notes links to our Bookshop Bookshelf. So that address is bookshop.org shop dressed and there you can find over 150 of our favorite fashion history titles and.
- [51:38]
B
Do you love Dressed but want to skip the ads? You can now sign up for Ad Free listening with any tier on our Dressed History Patreon.
- [51:46]
A
We are also excited to now be part of the Airwave Network and their premium ad free history subscription Airwave History plus available on Apple Podcasts. The subscription brings dress and also 27 other popular history podcasts ad free for just $5.99 per month. More information on Patreon and Airwave is available at the link in our bio.
- [52:09]
B
Thank you as always for tuning in and more dress coming your way very soon. Dress the History of Fashion is a production of Dress Media.
- [52:22]
A
Cass, I don't know about your mom but mine is always asking for photos of me to put up in her house. And with all of our photos being digital now, I admit it's a whole task printing them out, etc. But this year I'm going to win the holidays with Skylight Frame.
- [52:37]
B
Skylight Frame is a digital picture frame you can send photos to and they appear in seconds. And with the gift of a Skylight Frame you can send photos to write to family members frames from your phone in seconds, no apps or subscriptions required. It's really a simple way to pop in and stay connected with the people you love. And we love the Skylight Frame at my house too.
- [52:56]
A
It's personal, it's meaningful, and it's so easy to use that even the least tech savvy person in your family will love it. Skylight Frame displays thousands of pictures proudly as part of your home on a sleek HD touchscreen frame. Swipe through memories and keep adding new photos anytime from anywhere.
- [53:14]
B
The Skylight Frames quick one minute setup is easy for all ages or tech skill levels to use and if you aren't happy with your frame, you can return it within four months for a full refund. No questions asked.
- [53:26]
A
Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $20 off their 10 inch frames by going to skylight.com dressed go to skylight.com dressed for $20 off your 10 inch frame. That's my S K Y L I g h t.com dressed starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify.
- [53:52]
B
They have the tools you need to.
- [53:53]
A
Start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into Sign up for your $1 per month trial@shopify.com special offer.