Jordan Roth and the Theater of Fashion (Dressed Classic)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Dressed – The History of Fashion

Episode: Jordan Roth and the Theater of Fashion (Dressed Classic)
Date: June 5, 2026
Host: Cassidy Zachary & April Callahan
Guest: Jordan Roth

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Episode Overview

This classic episode of Dressed features a compelling conversation with Jordan Roth—Tony-winning Broadway producer, fashion collector, muse, and advocate for the performative and expressive power of fashion. Through intimate storytelling and insightful analysis, the episode explores Roth’s evolution as a fashion icon transcending the boundaries of gender, the interrelationship of theater and dressing, and how one’s wardrobe can become a daily act of personal truth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Formative Years and the Power of Dress (05:05–08:16)

• Jordan’s Early Connection to Fashion:

  • Fond early memories involve shopping with his mother and sitting in his grandmother’s closet, both pivotal figures in his fashion journey.

  • Observed clothing as a language of familial relationships and self-differentiation.

  • School “Uniform” as a Fifth Grader: Crafted his own look—oxford shirt and sweater vest—as a means to establish identity.

    “Clothes were always a differentiator. I think I often sort of created a uniform for myself...” – Jordan Roth (05:44)

• Halloween as a Day of Permission:

  • Described Halloween as “the festival of festivals,” a day to embody “what you want to be.”

  • Linked theater and costume as spaces for self-exploration and permission.

    “Halloween is a day of permission... The theater was a place of refuge for me as a child because that too is a place of permission.” – Jordan Roth (06:52)

2. Fashion as Self-Discovery & Evolution (09:17–13:44)

• Transitioning from Uniformity to Authentic Expression:

  • Early professional years involved a self-imposed uniform—a subdued Prada suit and buzz cut—to project authority in a senior business environment.
  • With growing professional confidence, Roth began to rediscover his expressive self:

    “I felt less that I had to dress the part and more that the part was me.” (11:13)

• Recovery of the “Fashion Self:”

  • Lapsed into strict forms, then rediscovered expressive dressing after seeing college photos.
  • Emphasized growth as both “an outward expansion and an inward return.”

3. Gender Fluidity and Liberation from Binaries (13:44–19:09)

• Letting Go of Gender Labels in Fashion:

  • Recounted childhood anxiety over crossing “boys” and “girls” department lines, and the sustained psychological impact.

  • A profound liberation came from no longer caring for whom a garment was designed.

    “The profound weight that I feel slipping off my body when I am no longer asking, caring, or interested in who was this made for...” – Jordan Roth (14:26)
    “It is how it’s supposed to be. It’s just fabric sewn in different ways of creative expression.” (16:34)

• How Garments Inform Movement:

  • Roth talked about the physical resonance he has with clothes, favoring non-bifurcated garments, and not perceiving his choices as “transgressive” but simply as “my clothes.”

    “I’m just wearing what makes me feel beautiful. It’s not that the fact that it is a dress or a skirt is incidental. It’s just no longer gendered to me.” – Jordan Roth (18:17)

4. Fashion as Performance and Intellectual Rigor (19:09–23:13)

• Sharing the Joy of Fashion:

  • Fashion as both visceral joy and intellectual labor.

  • Detailed the collaborative process behind his looks, considering event context, symbolic meaning, and history.

    “Fashion begins when we are conceiving what this look is and creating it and or styling it...I take the word performance to be an expression.” – Jordan Roth (21:08)

• Performance vs. Artifice:

  • Roth sees performance not as artificial but as sincere self-expression through fashion.

5. Collaboration with Designers & Fashion as Art (24:55–36:29)

• The Met Gala as Artistic Canvas:

  • Described working with famed designers such as Iris Van Herpen, Thom Browne, Zac Posen, and textile artist Michael Sylvan Robinson.
  • Stressed mutual creation—garments emerge from the “space between us.”

• Iconic Met Gala Cape with Iris Van Herpen (26:21–34:30):

  • Detailed the process of conceiving his 2019 Met Gala look themed on “Camp.”
  • The cape's proscenium motif blurred boundaries between performer and audience:

    “When you open the curtain and you see the audience…that renders you part of the performance.” – Jordan Roth (32:28)

  • Viral fitting moment:

    “I burst out laughing and then I burst out crying.” (31:34)

  • Fashion as layered, referential, and intellectually engaging art.

• Art vs. Wearability Debate:

  • Scorned the “but is it wearable?” reaction; compared to no one asking “but where can I hang that?” of a painting.

    “That is to miss the point…when fashion is art, you don’t ask of a painting, but where can I hang that?” – Jordan Roth (35:23)

6. Fashion Collecting and Performing the Archive (37:29–40:39)

• Wears What He Collects:

  • Roth’s collecting is personal and performative, not focused on preservation or speculation:

    “I’m not collecting as commodity…and I’m not even collecting as preservation…mine is to be my wardrobe, to be the tools of my expression.” (37:47)

• The Role of Artisans:

  • Acknowledged the often-invisible masters behind couture—hundreds, even thousands of years in the craft lineages.

7. Runway Experiences and the Theatricality of Fashion (41:00–44:29)

• Modeling at Paris Haute Couture:
  • Described the thrill of walking for Yuima Nakazato and Thom Browne.
  • Related runway performance to his theatrical roots: a fleeting, one-shot, ritualized moment.

    “The fashion show is one and done…it is previews, opening night, the run and closing night all in one kind of 15 minute explosion of yes.” – Jordan Roth (43:11)

8. Advice for Self-Expression (45:19–46:48)

• Permission to Express:
  • Roth’s advice is not to wait for “fearlessness” before expressing oneself. Embrace fear and move forward anyway.

    “Not waiting until I wasn’t afraid is its own block...I’m afraid and I do it anyway…can I live fully in myself with my fears, not despite them, but with them?” – Jordan Roth (45:27)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On personal style:
  “Discovery is always rediscovery. We’re always coming back to ourselves, even the parts of ourselves that we’ve never expressed.” – Jordan Roth (12:29)

• On gender in fashion:
  “It’s just fabric sewn in different ways of creative expression…I’m in my clothes.” – Jordan Roth (16:36, 18:17)

• On the Met Gala’s theater cape:
  “When the curtain opens…you are now on the stage, that renders you part of the performance. You become the performance.” – Jordan Roth (32:32)

• On dressing as art:
  “When fashion is art, you don’t ask of a painting, but where can I hang that?” – Jordan Roth (35:23)

• On advice for the self-conscious:
  “Not waiting until I wasn’t afraid is its own block. I think I’m afraid and I do it anyway.” – Jordan Roth (45:27)

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Important Timestamps

• Jordan’s earliest memory of fashion: 05:05
• Professional “uniform” years: 09:17
• On gender and fashion liberation: 14:26
• Instagram as performative art and thinking: 19:09
• Met Gala collaboration process: 26:21
• Met Gala proscenium look and its meaning: 32:28
• Debate: Is fashion art? 35:23
• On collecting to wear versus to archive: 37:47
• First Paris couture runway experience: 41:00
• Advice for personal expression: 45:19

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Tone and Language

Throughout, Roth and the hosts maintain a tone of deep respect, curiosity, and celebration of individuality. There is a mix of playful fashion enthusiasm and intellectual rigor, always geared toward encouraging listeners to reflect on their own habits of dress as opportunities for self-expression and liberation.

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Takeaway

This deeply personal and philosophical episode offers a view of fashion as lived art—performative, intellectual, and profoundly liberating. Roth’s journey models the courage to self-express, reminding us that “the world is a stage” and our self-styled wardrobes are daily performances in authenticity and joy.

Transcript

[April Callahan]

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[Cassidy Zachary]

Over 7 billion people in the world. We all have one thing in common. Every day we all get dressed.

[Podcast Narrator/Host]

Welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast where we explore the who, what, when of why we wear. We are fashion historians and your hosts,

[Cassidy Zachary]

April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary. Dress listeners, you have heard us sing the praises of today's guest, Jordan Roth on numerous occasions over the years.

[Podcast Narrator/Host]

For sure.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And that is because the acclaimed Broadway producer is one of our favorite fashion provocateurs, collectors muses on and off the red carpet.

[Podcast Narrator/Host]

Jordan is the president and co owner of jujamson Theaters, a group of five Broadway theaters. As a producer, he has six Tony Awards and a bevy of award winning credits to his name including the recently opened Kinky Boots, Funny Girl and Into the Woods, Moulin Rouge, Angels in America and the perennial New York favorite Book of Mormon. I mean cast. The list goes on and on. And he also just so happens to be one of the most exciting voices and faces in fashion today. As an haute couture collector and patron, a model and muse, he is truly passionate about the art of fashion.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah, and you may remember, dress listeners, we've been talking about Jordan's clothed expressions since 2019 and that was when he first came on Our radar after wearing a custom Iris Van Herpen cape to that year's Met Gala. So spectacular and awe inspiring was this moment, which we'll of course discuss today, that it still remains, hands down, one of my all time favorite Met Gala red carpet fashion statements ever. Jordan's embodiment and performance of this garment will forever live rent free in my head, as will many other of his sartorial stylings, including his coat of many colors, created in collaboration with textile artist and queer activist Michael Sylvan Robinson, who came on the show earlier this season. So definitely listen to that episode if you've not already.

[Podcast Narrator/Host]

For Jordan, fashion is about so much more than mere function or aesthetics. It's a performance art and a way of life. And one of the reasons we so appreciate him is that he is so seamlessly bridges the worlds of high fashion and theater. And he does so in a way that transcends the gender binary to remind us all of the true beauty, art and expression of dress. He calls himself the quote, self expression evangelist and has said, quote, the pinnacle of performance is really engaging with the truth, which is how I understand fashion. A daily performance of the truth of yourself. If, as the saying goes, all the world is a stage, well, then Jordan Roth is by far its most fashionable performer and we are so pleased to welcome him to the show.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Jordan, welcome to Dressed. I cannot tell you how excited I am to talk to you today.

[Jordan Roth]

I'm so excited to talk to you. Thank you.

[Cassidy Zachary]

April and I are huge fans and admirers of what you do. You literally embody everything we stand for on Dressed, celebrating the joy and the beauty and the art of fashion. So I am so excited to talk to you and learn all about it today.

[Jordan Roth]

I appreciate that so much and I say right back at you. I just love, I love what you all are doing.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Oh, thank you.

[Jordan Roth]

And the joy with which you do it.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Thank you. Thank you so much. So I just want to talk to you a little bit maybe about your formative years in relationship with fashion. That's one of the questions I ask a lot of people just because I think it's different for everyone. And it's fascinating to learn about people earliest relationship to dress and clothing. And I'm curious if you have an earliest memory in which you recognize the power or the magic of clothing or maybe if there was a moment that sparked your initial interest in fashion as a form of self expression.

[Jordan Roth]

I always remember loving fashion and being captivated by beauty and beauty in clothing in particular. I have great memories of shopping with my mother and hours sitting in my grandmother's closet, who was a fabulous style aficionado and collector of all things. And for myself. And so I think, you know, so several of my dearest role models, I always remember just observing how they dressed. Which isn't to say that I'm necessarily emulating them, but just the fashion clothes were sort of part of the vocabulary of those seminal relationships for me. And then for myself, clothes were always a differentiator. I think I often sort of created a uniform for myself. I remember I started a new school in fifth grade and I self styled a uniform of an oxford shirt that was either blue or pink or white and a V neck sweater vest. This was all very progressive for fifth grade and sort of that was my look that year. And I think also, you know, Halloween was a national holiday for me. I guess it is a national holiday for everybody. But what I mean to say is it was the festival of festivals. And I think that's because Halloween is a day of permission.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Right.

[Jordan Roth]

It's when you are allowed to be what you want to be. You are allowed to be what you imagine yourself to be. And that is also, I think, why the theater was a place of refuge for me as a child. Because that too is a place of permission. It is a place where you are allowed, you're given a pass, and your desires of self are not attributed to you. Which is a wonderful way to explore. But also I think it's a bridge. It's a bridge. It's a bridge to try on the self without being blamed.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Right.

[Jordan Roth]

And I think ultimately the goal, the growth, the growing into ourselves, which is, I think the work of our lives is to offer ourselves that permission and also own it as ourselves, not as something we put on, but hold at a distance, as in costume.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And you're talking about the permission to be yourself beyond this day of the allowance of pursuing fantasy. Right?

[Jordan Roth]

Exactly. Correct.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And when I look at you too, and I think that there's a level of courage to what you do, or people might view it that way because you are in so many ways kind of pushing societal boundaries that tell you who you should be and who they want you to be. But in reality we're all individuals. And the, you know, this kind of art of self expression through dress has to be one of the most liberating things I think anyone can really go through because we're put in those boxes so often. Right. I certainly don't express myself as much as I may want to, but it's an ever evolving Journey, and one that I know you've been on over the years, because if you look at images of you and you like your earlier career and you're in suits and ties to where you are now, it's very clear that you've had an evolving relationship with fashion and dress.

[Jordan Roth]

Been a journey, as they say in overused words.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yes. But in your case, it's so very clearly visually manifested in your dress. So I would love if you could just talk about what fashion and the fashion self means to you and how that's evolved over the years.

[Jordan Roth]

I really appreciate this question because it has been an evolution. And I'll tell you, you know, I look at those pictures too. Not so much the suit pictures, which we'll talk about, but when I got back to my fashion self, I look at some of those pictures now and I remember thinking, oh, I'm really, I am really out there. I am really pushing the boundaries. And now I look at it and I'm like, oh, God, that was staid and boring. Right. But it's only because that's my view from where I sit. Now, back to the uniform conversation. I started producing theater very young, almost right out of college. And everybody who worked with me was older than me and had more experience than me. I again self styled this uniform of authority. And it was a black, blue or gray Prada suit, a white shirt untucked. And the untucked was my nod to I'm not a banker. And I had a buzz cut, short, short cropped hair. And that was my look for it ended up being like 15 years.

[April Callahan]

Wow.

[Jordan Roth]

And it served me really well until it didn't. And when I started to bristle under its constraints, I don't think I was articulating yet what I was feeling or what I was trying to kind of break loose from, break free from. But I think it also somewhat coincided with a feeling, a measure of professional confidence as I started to feel more secure in what I was doing and less, I think I felt less that I had to dress the part and more that the part was me. And so however I dressed was the part. And that is a. That's also part of growing into ourselves. And so I started to feel like it was okay to break free a bit. And first it was even knowing that I was not feeling free. Right. You have to sort of connect to first, what are the feelings of constraint in order to release yourself from them. I think many of us don't even know that we feel constrained because that does require a level of deliberate sight Right. And when I started to emerge from that, I had forgotten. I had forgotten that this was always how I expressed myself, because it was so many years of not. And a friend sent me a picture of us from college and I was decked and I couldn't believe it. I looked at this picture and I was like, oh, oh, oh, right there I am. I had legit forgotten that this is who I've always been. And so I think discovery is always rediscovery. We're always coming back to ourselves, even the parts of ourselves that we've never expressed. But if we are really coming into ourselves, we are coming back to ourselves. And so the process of pushing boundaries. Right. Imagery that that suggests an outward expansion is also simultaneously an inward return.

[Cassidy Zachary]

That's beautiful. Thank you for that reminder. And I've noticed something that's part of your journey of self expression. And fashion has been about gender fluidity and kind of moving past that gender binary in society. And that's so very, you know, encompassed in, like, women wear skirts and dresses and men wear trousers and flat shoes. And this is how it's always been. And correct me if I'm wrong, but when I first read articles about, like your haute couture buying, for instance, it involved buying menswear. But then it feels like your style has developed a lot more into, like, gender fluidity because you wear these fabulous non bifurcated garments now. Can you speak a little bit to that?

[Jordan Roth]

Yes, I can. So, yeah. I cannot tell you the profound weight that I feel slipping off my body when I am no longer asking, caring, or interested in who was this made for? What body type, what gender was this made for? Is no longer a question of meaning to me. The question is simply, do I have something to say to this piece? And does it have something to say to me? I remember you started our conversation with early childhood experiences with fashion. I remember being in the local department store Seal Fonds in New Jersey, and there were signs sort of hanging of boys department and girls department, but the signs were up in the air and it was unclear where the line of delineation was. And I was petrified to be on the wrong rack. And oh, that's boys, that's girls, was the end of the discussion. There was no but I like that. And that's a definition that sticks with us in the most pernicious ways. And it doesn't serve us. It doesn't serve any of us. And it has been profoundly freeing and nourishing and also just relaxing.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Relaxing like taking a deep breath and Letting it out.

[Jordan Roth]

Yes, it is. It's like this giant sigh because it is how it's supposed to be. It's just fabric sewn in different ways of creative expression and expressing the body in different ways. And I am very aware I am a body who is very sensitive to clothing. And so how my body will respond physically to how a garment is cut. And so. And it tells me very clearly how to move in it. And to be able to have that conversation with the full panoply of possibility is freeing. And my body, the way my body is built, and this has taken us, me and my body, many decades of. Of real struggle with one another, to relax into finally. But mine is a body that is more conversant with clothes that are originally intended for a female body. It is my waist in relation to my hips. It is how my legs move the rhythms of my physical self. When I allowed myself to let my body be what it wants to be is when all of that started to drop away. And I stopped asking, who is this for? And I only asked, is this for. For me? And I'll tell you, I don't even have a sense anymore of, like, I'm in a dress, I'm in a skirt in a way that would imply some sort of transgressive act. I'm just wearing what makes me feel beautiful. And it's not that the fact that it is a dress or a skirt is incidental. It's just no longer gendered to me. I no longer feel like I'm in women's clothes versus men's clothes. I'm in my clothes.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Right. And by doing that, you are giving others permission to do the same thing and to. And you're setting this incredible example for all of us because you're so generous with your Instagram, which you post to almost on the daily. And you take us all inside of this world with you, your theater world and your fashion world, which, of course, are one and the same. But you're so generous with sharing that experience and that joy with us, and it's infectious. It reminds me, I know you're friends with Ana Cleveland. Her mom Pat's been on the show a couple times, and Pat Cleveland's the same way. It's like this infectious joy that fashion brings to her life, and then she shares it with all of us. That's what you do.

[Jordan Roth]

I love that. And I just saw Anna in the Margiela show, and she was literal, physical divinity in a way that I have not experienced before. It was thrilling.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Oh, my gosh I'm so excited to talk to you about that.

[Jordan Roth]

Yeah, I so appreciate what you are sharing. And indeed, that is part of the joy for me because my experience with fashion is both a kind of visceral joy as well as a intellectual rigor. And so I put a lot of thought into why am I wearing this here and to this what is it? Expressing of myself and expressing of the space between the way I am reacting to where I am, this event or this thing we are celebrating or honoring. And you know, so much of fashion is iconography and reference and funneling those elements through an artistic vision. And that's what I'm doing. That's the joy of how I dress every day. I mean, not quite every day. Sometimes it's just a T shirt and blue jeans, jeans and babies and dogs, and I love it. But what I'm sharing on my Instagram is that thought process, because that is the thing too. For me, fashion begins when we are conceiving what this look is and creating it and or styling it and then preparing in that day the process of getting ready and then the wearing it, which I take to be a performance, performing the piece. And I think, you know, the word performance gets a bad rap. I think a lot of people associate artifice with performance. I do not. I take the word performance to be an expression. And so when I am performing the piece, I'm expressing the piece. I'm expressing myself through the piece. And then the sort of post experience. Post as in after, not post as in to post, but both is the kind of looking back on and explaining and thinking through. And in many cases, as I write on my Instagram, I often will see references that perhaps were subconscious because they weren't in my original intent, but I see them coming through when I look at pictures and I love that because we really are repositories of all the visual stimulus that we encounter. That is both a wonderful thing and a warning because we take it all with us. So we do have to be careful what we allow to come in.

[April Callahan]

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[Podcast Narrator/Host]

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[April Callahan]

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[Jordan Roth]

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[Cassidy Zachary]

Your relationship with fashion is multifaceted. You're a patron, you're a model, you're a museum, and you're an artist. And in most cases you collaborate. I mean, maybe it's all cases with the designers and artists whose fashion art you embody and are central to creating. So there's your work with Zac Posen, who does many of your like, Broadway red carpet looks, most recently Funny Girl. And then there's of course the designers for your Met Gala looks, most recently this fabulous reconceptualized tuxedo with Thom Browne, but also Michael Sylvan Robinson's coat of many colors. They were just on the show earlier this year talking about that fabulous collaboration. And then Iris Van Herpen, number one. Jordan, number one, hands down, best Met Gala look ever. Ever.

[Jordan Roth]

Ah, I am floored. I'm floored. Thank you.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Not as floored as I was when you walked on that red carpet. I mean, I think it was the most innovative and ingenious and poetic, my favorite ever. So I would love if you can talk about how you build these relationships with designers but also artists, because Michael is an artist, a textile artist, but not a quote unquote designer and how you work with them to conceptualize and build these garments. Because it's really a process you take very seriously and something you're deeply Involved in it is.

[Jordan Roth]

First of all, thank you. That is just the highest of wonderful praise. And I will. I feel like I need to put that on a plaque immediately. So, yes. So for these big moments, it is my great joy to collaborate with remarkable artists. And the piece that we end up with has emerged from the space between us. And that is part of what fashion is for me. When we are talking about fashion at that scale, and there are. There are very few canvases that you can paint on quite as large as the Met. And so it's an opportunity that I relish because we were talking about permission earlier. It is its own kind of permission, because what's a thing that we hurl at each other? You're too big. That's too big, right? Too much. Too much. That's a cut down that. And, you know, of course, we're always dressing to our context. I often tend to go a little larger than context, which is where I like to live. But what's so thrilling about the Met is it's very difficult to be too big for the method. And so that's freeing because it's an invitation to allow your imagination to really soar. And I think, for me, the word fashion and the word art are interchangeable. And you can imagine many pieces of visual art, extraordinary canvases, magnificent sculpture of scale. And you can see the artist who is unfettered by concerns of scale, who has allowed themselves to really bust out and take space and allow their creativity to determine where the bounds are, rather than the bounds determining their creativity. And I also love the themes because they give us. They give us something to really dig into intellectually, esthetically, and to be in conversation with. And part of what's so wonderful about the Met and the exhibitions that we are celebrating is they are all constructed around these contextualizing ideas. That's where they begin. They don't begin with pretty things. And then you write a story to them. So with the Camp exhibition, of course, that Andrew Bolton and team, who are so brilliant, began with the Susan Sontag Notes on Camp essay, which, of course, is a piece that I have known well. And so then I go to that source material and read again. And that began a sort of clarity for me, of mission statement for that piece, which was I knew that I wanted the piece to be both about performance and a performance in itself. I also knew that I wanted the proscenium to be a central visual element and metaphor, because the proscenium in the theater is the frame. It is basically a sign that says look here. It has also become a kind of architectural centerpiece, but it has a performative function as well. And so that's where we began. And Iris and I had just these thrilling, thrilling, moving, joyful zoom calls just like this. And then passing emails back and forth and sketches back and forth. And then she would actually send. And, you know, the shoulder caps she sent back and forth so that they could be fitted on me. And she was. Petra, who works with her, were on FaceTime as we were fitting that piece, that part of it here. And then I finally, I went to her studio in Amsterdam for the final fitting, which PS has become my super viral TikTok of the moment that I tried it on for the first time and spread my arms and saw it and literally just.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I know your face.

[Jordan Roth]

I burst out laughing and then I burst out crying.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I know. And I mean, that's how I. That's how I was introduced to you. Because you came on that red carpet and it was like, okay, like, stop everything. What just happened here? Because it's like, you know, it's a closed curtain and then it opens and it opens which sound. And the curtain opens and reveals the stage, which sounds almost like it sounds costumey and gimmicky when you just say it like this. But when you see it, dress listeners, if you have not already, it is the most magnificent, surprising, like magical, embodied experience ever. So unexpected and so amazing. And then. Yes, so then I started researching you and following you and look and then came across the video of such joy and surprise. I mean, yeah, there's no other way to explain it. I guess people just have to look it up because I'm not doing it justice.

[Jordan Roth]

Yeah, come look it up. But I do think there's much to delve into because when the curtain opens, what you would expect to see is a stage. What you saw was the audience. And so that renders you the viewer on stage. The back, when you look at it from the back, that's where you see the stage. So what we discovered together through the process of conceiving this was those many layers of meaning and rigorous. Again, back to this signpost mission statement of the piece is about performance and a performance in itself. And so when you open the curtain and you see the audience such that you are, you, the viewer, are now on the stage, that renders you part of the performance. You become the performance. And I, in embodying the proscenium, am facilitating the performance of you. And those levels which, again, you don't have to get that when you See it, if you just open it up and you go, whoa, great, now you're in. But where these big looks want to go for me is I want to be able to have meaningful conversation about the many layers that are part of it. After you see it and it continues to hold us, it continues to reveal itself. And that's where one of the reasons why I think fashion is such a thrilling art form, because it does allow for those possibilities of layers being revealed.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Absolutely. And there's the debate about. Is fashion art? Is fashion art. And there's so much conversation about it. It's like, not all fashion's art. Fine. But there is pieces where it so clearly is art and embodied art and performed art in a way that, like a painting on a wall will never be able to perform. But you get the same reactions as you would as if you're, say, standing. If I'm standing in front of a Van Gogh for the. That experience, that awe and that magic that just draws you in and doesn't let you go. Like, I'm still thinking about this garment that you wore for three years later, and it stays with you. That is fashion as art. Again, because it's an embodied art form and because so many different hands go into creating it. It's really unique in so many ways. But, I mean, I'm preaching to the crier here.

[Jordan Roth]

But. But it's meaningful to keep saying it because slippery, it's easy to lose. I often, as I was sharing so much of my recent trip to Paris for couture, you know, lots of comments on the socials of but is it wearable? And certainly lots of comments on my recent Tom Brown piece of like, where can you wear that? And I think that is to miss the point and exactly to your point of when fashion is art, you don't ask of a painting, but where can I hang that?

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah.

[Jordan Roth]

And if I. If I can't hang it anywhere, it's useless to me. And so I think what you're saying does bear repeating and repeating and repeating so that we're not missing the opportunity to experience great art. Because it's right here. It's right here.

[Cassidy Zachary]

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[Podcast Narrator/Host]

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[Cassidy Zachary]

I want to talk to you about your collecting because you collect fashion as others collect art. And can you talk to us a little bit about what you look for when you collect fashion? And do you wear all your fashion or is there pieces that you archive away? Can you talk to us a little bit more about that experience and practice?

[Jordan Roth]

For me at this moment, and I could absolutely see this evolving, but for me at this moment, it's all things that I can, will and want to wear. Many of the pieces are things that I will have in kind of my daily collection, which even if I don't wear it from year to year, if it's like a sort of major piece that I'm not going to wear every other week, it still is kind of in my immediate sphere. And then there are other pieces, like all the major couture pieces that I wear, and then they go into archival storage as part of my collection. But they're all pieces that I have worn or will wear. Because for me, I'm not collecting as. As commodity, and I'm not collecting as or. And I'm not even collecting as preservation. Though I think there, there are extraordinary collectors who are doing a great service to the art of fashion in collecting for preservation. Mine is to be my wardrobe, to be the tools of my expression, the colors of my canvas. And I think most art collectors, I believe, will tell you that first buy what you love is the mantra, is the premise, and the rest takes care of itself. I was just with Alexander Fury in Paris, who was showing part of his archive collection, and, you know, he was describing that it began as a just profound passion for Galliano's work and which became a collection which then grew and grew and grew. And so, you know, great collections of anything begin with a passion for the work. In my case, it is a passion for performing the work, which is to say wearing the work and all of

[Cassidy Zachary]

the hands that went into the artisans that go into creating that. It's like the designer is artists, but there's also these artisans who in many cases these crafts and arts, art forms are hundreds of years, thousands of years old. And you're just seeing them at like the highest Quality. And I can't even imagine. I mean, some designers are pretty generous with showing us, like, up close detail shots of the creation of some of these garments. But it's one thing to watch it on a screen, it's another thing entirely to touch it and then to actually be able to wear it.

[Jordan Roth]

I can only imagine it is a fashion blessing.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yes. And we are all. Because most of us will never be able to get that experience. We're so grateful to people like you that we can kind of live vicariously through this experience. And you were just got back from Paris Haute Couture Week, where you made your couture Runway debut. I have to say I did. That was amazing.

[Jordan Roth]

And of course, a thrilling experience to walk for Yuima Nakazato in my first Paris couture show.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And can you talk a little bit about that designer? Because our listeners will be aware there's, like, kind of three categories within the Federation of Haute Couture. There's like, the traditional members that are in France, and there's the collaborative members who are outside, and then there's guest members, which kind of allows you to get more of a global purview of the art of fashion and dressmaking and bring it to this week as well. Can you talk a little bit more about that designer and what inspired you to walk your first Runway couture Runway? Because you did walk for Thom Browne last fashion week in New York.

[Jordan Roth]

I sure did. And that was my first major Runway. And it was. It was the most thrilling, thrilling experience. And it was definitely jumping into the deep end with the shoe, the height of the shoes and the weight of the piece and the sort of unwieldiness of it. And it was. I loved every second of it. I loved every second of it. And of course, it was the kind of opening to the Met weekend, because the piece that I walked and my piece at the Met were developed as the same silhouette, though of course, presented quite differently. And so my weekend with Tom was extraordinary. Just extraordinary. So Uima's work I first experienced on a shoot for as if magazine that will be coming out momentarily. And it was this magnificent multicolored movement. A piece of multicolored movement. And it just so gave extraordinary space to my body to live my best Martha Graham life. And that was my introduction to this work. And it was amazing to experience this new collection from within it. At our fittings, I tried on lots of the pieces and ultimately walked the sort of shaman, esque, blue, ethereal, organic magnificence that I got the great Joy of walking. And I really love walking runways because they are the kind of pinnacle of what we've been talking about, of the performance. Maybe I shouldn't say pinnacle, but they are. They are a unique form of the performance of fashion. And I very much connect to them from my theatrical roots because there's something so in this moment that it is, the fashion show is one and done. It is previews, opening night, the run and closing night all in one kind of 15 minute explosion of yes. And I love the energy of that. I love the poetry of that. I love the traditions of that, the rituals, the rituals around the performance of the fashion show. I find it a deeply meaningful experience. So more to come. Stay tuned.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Well, Jordan, fashion so clearly gives you joy. It also gives us joy just watching you. I mean, like I said, it's infectious. I have to say that the world is a better place because you are in it. And I want to thank you so much for sharing your fashion joy with us and love with us. I think you're really setting an example for so many of us and giving us all permission, right, to be ourselves and to express what that means sartorially. So thank you so much for being here today. And just in closing, I wonder if you have any advice for people who might be trepidatious and taking that leap to sartorial expression. As you said, so many of us might not even know the boxes that keep us from exploring ourselves in that way. So do you have any advice about how to move into that space of being?

[Jordan Roth]

Well, first, I just want to thank you so much for what you've just said. It is really meaningful to me and I'm really grateful for how you see me and what I'm doing and how you help all of us understand and value and contextualize this form of expression. As for advice, I don't know. I think we're all on the same path. We're just at different spots in it. And I think for me, not waiting until I wasn't afraid is its own block. I think I'm afraid and I do it anyway. And I think offering ourselves that grace to say I don't have to wait until I am fearless, because I may never be fearless. But that's not really the point, is it? The point is, can I live fully in myself with my fears, not despite them, but with them. And not that I need to wrestle with my fears, but perhaps we can just walk together and maybe I'll walk next to my fears and some monster Rick Owens heels and we are so

[Cassidy Zachary]

grateful that you do. More, more, more. Thank you so much Jordan. This has been truly wonderful.

[Jordan Roth]

Can't stop, won't stop.

[Cassidy Zachary]

No one wants you to.

[Jordan Roth]

All right, my friend. This was a real joy. Thank you.

[Cassidy Zachary]

It was. Thank you, Jordan.

[Podcast Narrator/Host]

Thank you so much for taking us behind the scenes of your sartorial journey and sharing with us so much about what clothing means to you dress listeners. Be sure and follow Jordan on Instagram ordanroth R O T H where he so generously shares the daily happenings of his haute fashionable life.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Well, that does it for us today. Dress listeners, may you consider yourself to be a performer in the world's theater of fashion. Next time you get dressed,

[April Callahan]

Please head

[Podcast Narrator/Host]

to restpodcast on Instagram or Rest Podcast without the underscore on Facebook to check out the visual content associated with each week's episodes.

[April Callahan]

And remember, we always love hearing from you, so if you'd like to write to us, you can do [e-mail] Dresshill is also our website where you can sign up for our monthly newsletter, our in person tours and online fashion history courses. And you can check out whatever else we have up our finely tailored sleeves.

[Podcast Narrator/Host]

We get so many questions from you all about our recommendations for fashion history books, so if you are interested you can always find a link in our show notes to our Bookshop Bookshelf. So that address is bookshop.org sl shop dressed and there you can find over 150 of our favorite fashion history titles.

[April Callahan]

And do you love Dressed but want to skip the ads? You can now sign up for Ad Free listening with any tier on our Dressed History Patreon.

[Podcast Narrator/Host]

We are also excited to now be part of the Airwave Network and their premium ad free History subscription Airwave History plus available on Apple Podcasts. The subscription brings dressed and also 27 other popular history podcasts ad free for just $5.99 per month. More information on Patreon and Airwave is available at the link in our bio.

[April Callahan]

Thank you as always for tuning in and more dressed coming your way very soon. The history of Fashion is a production of Dressed Media.

[Jordan Roth]

This Father's Day when you ship UPS air at the UPS store, your items arrive on time or your money back back guaranteed at no extra cost. It's like the father of all shipping services. It shows up to the airport way too early just to play it safe. It's overprotective about all the things that truly matter. And it's always prom, especially to be with family. Make it your first choice. To celebrate your dad, ship UPS Air with our money back guarantee exclusively at the UPS Store US retail locations. Visit the upsstore.com airshipping for full details. Terms and conditions apply. In a time when the United States military is being sent into American cities, when civilians and soldiers are being pitted against each other, it's strange that we've never dressed more alike. We all wear performance clothes. We all wear outdoor clothes, whether or not we're outside civilians and soldiers. I'm Avery Trufelman. I make a podcast about clothing called Articles of Interest, and in this new season, I trace the interwoven histories of the military and the outdoor industry and how they built each other. Find Articles of interest wherever you get your podcasts, and the season is called Gear.