← Dressed: The History of Fashion
Loading summary
Transcript107 lines
- [00:01]
Cassie Zachary
Dress listeners, you've heard me say it time and time again on the show that while I love studying all things beauty and makeup history, I'm not in fact the biggest wearer of makeup and I've always preferred a more natural look. So there's really only a couple of core products that you're going to find in my makeup bag and that recently has come to include Jones Rhodes Miracle Balm, which multitasks as a blush, highlighter, lip tint, and so much more. I've really been curious about their quote unquote no makeup makeup take on beauty for some time and let's just say now I am hooked.
- [00:36]
April Callahan
Modern day makeup that's clean, strategic and multifunctional for effortless routines. For a limited time, our listeners are getting a free cool gloss on their first purchase when they use the code Dressed at checkout. Just head over to Jonesroadbeauty.com and use the code Dressed at checkout. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. So please support our show and tell them our show sent you.
- [01:03]
Dr. Sarah Grant
WIX is the website builder that just keeps on giving. It's giving.
- [01:07]
April Callahan
I just built my whole site in under an hour.
- [01:10]
Dr. Sarah Grant
It's giving. I actually made that. Whoa. It's giving.
- [01:13]
April Callahan
Our sales are through the roof.
- [01:16]
Dr. Sarah Grant
So whether you need help expressing yourself or just need something to make your life easier, WIX has you covered. Try it out@wix.com.
- [01:27]
April Callahan
Dressed the history of Fashion is a production of dress media. With over 8 billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day, we all get dressed.
- [01:42]
Cassie Zachary
Welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast that explores the who, what, when of why we wear. We are friends, fashion historians and your.
- [01:50]
April Callahan
Hosts, Cassie Zachary and April Callahan. Dress listeners, please excuse the swish of my silk skirts as I adjust my panniers and my poof for today's episode, which is going to transport us all the way back to some 270 years ago to one of the most decadent and delicious periods of fashion history.
- [02:12]
Cassie Zachary
Yes, let's lace up our corsets, shall we, and head into one of the most anticipated and lauded fashion exhibitions of the year. And we are, of course speaking of Marie Antoinette style, which is currently on View at London's Victoria and Albert Museum through March 22 of 2026. And I mean, where do we even begin given the subject herself has been dubbed the Queen of fashion for more than 250 years? Marie Antoinette's enduring influence on new fashions created decade after decade and century after Century is one of the main themes of the exhibition. But that is not all.
- [02:50]
April Callahan
It certainly is not, because alongside examples of more contemporary fashions which have been inspired by the era of the 1770s and the 1780s, the exhibition puts on display some of the most sumptuous examples of fashion, jewelry and the decorative arts from this period of the 18th century, which really, truly is cast as, you know, an apex of artisanal craftsmanship. And just the handmade quality of everything simply doesn't really exist in that way anymore. So many of us are very well familiar with the very public, somewhat unjustified critique of Marie Antoinette as a wanton spendthrift. But lesser known is her official role as a patron of luxury industries and the expectation that she spend freely in doing so to just had been the role of French queens before her. And in many ways, the public perception of Marie Antoinette was a very different figure from the private individual who frequently went to great lengths to avoid the.
- [03:55]
Cassie Zachary
Public eye, which is but part of the story. April. And Our guest today, Dr. Sarah Grant, will touch upon in this episode which explores the supreme artifice at and around the court of Marie Antoinette and her indelible legacy on on fashion's future. Dr. Grant is the curator of Marie Antoinette style. We are so pleased to have her here. And she is also the senior curator of prints at the V and A. So we are so delighted to welcome you to the show. Sarah, thank you for joining us.
- [04:24]
April Callahan
Dr. Grant, welcome to Dressed.
- [04:26]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Thank you very much for having me. Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you.
- [04:29]
April Callahan
We are equally delighted to have you join us today to speak about one of the most anticipated fashion and textile exhibitions of 2025 and also into next year. It's still open in 2026 for a few months. And we are of course speaking about your exhibition, Marie Antoinette Style. But before we open up any discussion on the Queen of fashion herself, I'm hoping that you can tell us a little bit about your background and what exactly is your role at the Victoria and Albert Museum?
- [05:01]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Yes, so I am curator of Marie Antoinette style. I'm senior curator of prints in the art department at the va and I've been at the V and A years. I started in the textiles and dress department, which is now the textiles and fashion department. So I was an assistant curator there and then I moved across to where I am now. I previously worked in at Christie's as well. I studied history of art and 18th century French art. My MA my PhD my PhD was on my Internet as well. So for me the exhibition was really a sort of a once in a lifetime chance really to do the exhibition I'd always wanted to see on my Internet.
- [05:39]
April Callahan
Yeah.
- [05:39]
Dr. Sarah Grant
I think a special note here is.
- [05:41]
April Callahan
Also that the exhibition we're going to speak of today is the first exhibition, if I understand correctly, on Marie Antoinette ever to be mounted in the uk. Is that correct?
- [05:51]
Dr. Sarah Grant
It is. Which is crazy. Yeah, which is crazy because as you know, they've only been around 11 exhibitions actually ever on marriageNet in 230 years. And some of those are quite small. And this is only the third outside France as well. There was one in Japan, there was one in San Francisco, and now there is the one here in the uk. And so, yes, it's the first one in the country to take place, which is particularly surprising given how much of Marinette's sort of collections came to the UK in terms of the collectors who are buying furniture, porcelain and other sort of objetat that ended up here in country houses and other collections. So I think it is surprising. And then the aspect of the fashion and the style has always been something that's been so difficult because of wardrobe being dispersed and because of 18th century French court dress generally not surviving. Yeah. So it was something that we wanted to do and I pitched it about eight years ago and then have been working on it for four years steadily. But yes, because the VA had some of Mariechnet's objects, so we had some of her furniture, we had some of her porcelain. And then obviously we have very good collections of 18th century French dress, textiles, fans, jewels. We could fill in all the gaps. Yeah.
- [07:01]
April Callahan
And don't worry, dress listeners, we're going to get to exactly why Marie Antoinette's wardrobe was dispersed and where some of these pieces may have ended up. But tell us a little bit more about how the exhibition is structured because you have already alluded to the fact that not a ton of her personal belongings survive to this day. But here we are and the exhibition is beautiful. So maybe paint a picture for our listeners of what the exhibition looks like in general or what it consists of.
- [07:31]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Up. Okay, so it's an exhibition in 250 objects and 50 of those belong to Marie Antoinette. It's in two galleries and the first gallery is really devoted to the 18th century. So in the first gallery we look at what is the style that Mary Janet, as the most fashionable queen in history, shaped. And then in the second gallery we look at all the revivals of interest in her style that take place across the 19th century, across the Art Deco period. In particular. And then we bring it right up to date to 2020, because as this year, there's been a huge amount of interest in Marientoanette again, and there have been so many sort of collections and different fashion designers referring to her again. So we have. I think the most recent gown that we have in the exhibition is from Valentino, from the collection, the couture collection that they showed in March, which was inspired by Marie Antoinette. A few of the gowns in the collection, but yes. So you see everything from 1770, when she first arrived in France, up to 2025.
- [08:28]
April Callahan
It's amazing. And she is this enduring figure in fashion history that people just seem to be captivated by. And I think we will speak more about perhaps some of those reasons why here in a bit. But let's. Let's turn our attention to who she was exactly. In the text accompanying the exhibition, you remarked that Marie Antoinette was, quote, the most fashionable, scrutinized and controversial queen in history, end quote. And this is perhaps one of the reasons why we tend to know so much about her. And additionally, as you have noted, that in the last 20 years or so, there's been a lot of new research and scholarship on her life today. Dress listeners, don't be shocked if we shatter some of the myths that you yourself might hold surrounding her and her place in history in our discussion today. Sarah, would you tell us a little bit about Marie Antonia Josepha Johanna's childhood and how she first came to France? Yes, we have to set the scene a bit here.
- [09:32]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Yes, absolutely. So she was born in 1755 in Vienna in the Hofburg, which is the Winter Imperial Palace. She was the daughter of Empress Maria Theresa and Francis Stephen, Duke of Lorraine. So her mother is Austrian, her father is French. She's one of 16 children, although only 13 survive to adulthood. And she is one of 11 girls. She's the penultimate child. So she grows up in Vienna at Schoenbrunn, which is the country estate, and then also in the Hofburg and Vienna. Vienna. And she is groomed essentially for this future role that she will have. She's destined to marry the dauphin. I mean, originally it's her elder sister who's considered for this, but then she goes to Naples instead, and that's Maria Carolina, who was also Marinette's favourite sister. So she's really being prepared for this role that she will have as the wife to the heir of the French throne. And then in 1770, she embarks on that journey. So 1770 is the year of the wedding. And she first has the proxy wedding ceremony in the Augustina King Kirche in Vienna. And then she embarks on the two and a half week journey from Vienna to Versailles. And at Versailles, she has her second wedding service in the Royal Chapel at Versailles. And then so obviously, as everyone knows, the marriage is. I mean, I think it's fair to say that the Dauphins is a slightly shy, timid. It's a tricky. It's a tricky union. We actually have a letter in the exhibition that is from Marie Antoinette to one of her friends complaining about Louis xvi, complaining about their incompatibility. So it's a tricky marriage. It goes unconstummated properly, because they do try, but properly unconstummated for seven years. Then she has four children, of whom only two survive to the Revolution. And then only one survives until the very end. And then as, of course, the revolution occurs in 1789, then the family, royal family, are forcibly brought from Versailles to Paris. They are held under essentially virtual house arrest in the Tuileries palace in Paris, which is no longer there. It's a palace that was destroyed by a fire in the 19th century, but it used to abut the Louvre in the gardens, the Tuileries Gardens. So they are staying there. And then they try to flee in 1791 with a flight to Varennes that's not successful. They're then brought back under much more hostile circumstances. Then the Tuileries palace is sacked in August 1792, and then they're moved to the Temple prison and they stay there. Obviously there is the trial and execution of Louis the 16th in January 1793. And then Marie Antoinette is separated and moved to the Conciergerie, which is the final prison for her trial. And then she is guillotined in October, 16th of October, last week actually is the anniversary of her death in 1793. And then she has one daughter who survives the revolution, who is released in 1795. Marie Therese, age 17. She eventually gets back to Vienna, but she has no children. She marries and has no children. And so Mary Janet's line ends with her. Yeah, and that is the end of that story.
- [12:31]
April Callahan
So that is our chronology. Now we're going to get into the details of this because this is where I think that some of this myth busting for people might occur. Obviously, we're going to speak largely about fashion, but also one of the things that I think is really interesting about Marie Antoinette is that the public portrayal of her is somewhat different than who she really was as a person. And I hope we can get to some of that, too. So from the start, fashion was really foundational for her tenure at the French court. Could you tell us a little bit about the role of fashion at versailles in the 1770s and what might have been expected from her upon her arrival as the young dauphine in terms of her dress at court? And feel free to go into as much detail as you like.
- [13:24]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Okay? Okay. As you know, I mean, I feel ridiculous saying all this because, you know, you know, all this, the sort of the practical in terms of dress and the etiquette and in terms of dresses established by Louis xiv, so in the previous century, essentially. And that includes the kind of the strict hierarchy of dress and what is worn where. Before Marie Antoinette comes to Versailles, she is already being schooled in kind of French ways and French etiquette. She has a French dentist, she sent a French hairdresser to model her into an approximation of a French princess. And hair, it turns out, was a particularly important way of appearing French. That was very important. But also she's wearing French silks in Vienna too. So she does have some French fashions. And then her mother, Maria Theresa, purchases her trousseau from Paris as well. And that is sent to her. And when she arrives, that's when she discovers just how strict and probably to her, ridiculous some of it is. I mean, she famously, as she despised the Grand Navy, which is the Robe du coeur, which is the kind of the apex in terms of the most formal type of court dress that is worn. That's what she wears for her wedding, both of them. And then that's also what she wears to any kind of formal ceremonial event. And that is what she finds most difficult. There's a really wonderful letter from Maria Theresa to Marie Jeanette saying here that the bodices in France are very rigid. The whale bound bodice, the corps, the formal bodice that was worn with the grande navy. And she says, so can I send you some from Vienna because they'll be more comfortable, essentially. And there's also Madame Campin, her first maid chambermaid, says, you know, that as soon as the sort of ceremonies or events, whatever, were over marriage that would rush back to her private apartments, unhook her train and remove her pannier as well, because it was so uncomfortable to wear. So she really objects to and struggles with those rituals and also the whole public performative aspect of life, you know, as we know, and which is so brilliantly evoked Jazan Sophia Coppola's film, the Whole thing of people passing, which you've discussed as well on your podcast. The whole thing of people of different ranks having to hold and pass things like the chemise or the napkin or da da da da d. Those sorts of things. So she does, she tries and she does, with her sort of the power of her personality and her charisma and her charm and her very sort of fashionable and stylish appearance, manage to erode that etiquette and move more with the times and introduce much more fashionable styles as well to the court.
- [15:44]
April Callahan
Yeah, yeah. I always like to joke that at the French court at this time, the higher your rank, the honor bestowed on you was the most uncomfortable clothing possible.
- [15:56]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Yes. It's so true. Simply brutal. We're almost punished.
- [15:59]
April Callahan
Yeah. So things did change a bit for Marie Antoinette. On May 10, 1774, upon the somewhat unexpected passing of her husband's grandfather, Louis xv, he passed due to smallpox, which he most likely contracted from a mistress. And now her husband, Marie Antoinette's husband, Louis, ascended the throne of France as Louis XVI and she as queen. So what exactly was her role at court as queen consort and how much power did she truly have within that role?
- [16:34]
Dr. Sarah Grant
So she is supposed to have no power. Her only role is supposed to be bringing forth heirs, bearing heirs to the throne and producing a sort of a future king and raising a future king, and then also really nurturing and fostering the French luxury trade industries, the native industries, and closing France to foreign imports. And she does that by wearing French products that things like silk from the silk weaving centers in Nilles and other French products and trades. And that is her soft power, is that she is essentially a sort of a brand ambassador for France. She is a fashion plate for France. And that is what she's expected to do. And she's expected to create a regal spectacle, a regal but not extroverted spectacle. And that's where I think her personality and her character almost come into conflict with that role.
- [17:24]
April Callahan
Yeah. I do think that she rather enjoyed some of those aspects of being the patron of the arts, especially, especially in terms of her patronage of the textile industry. And in many ways, at this point, textiles were the star of the show of, of 18th century design, not just in terms of fashion, but also interiors, which is mind blowing. When you go to Versailles, I'm hoping that you might share a little bit about the significance of textiles within her world at this time. Within her role.
- [17:56]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Yes. I mean, she's surrounded by textiles, and as you say, it's not just the textiles she's wearing in her wardrobe, it is the textiles that are furnishing all her rooms and apartments. And these are. I mean, textiles are hugely, hugely valuable during this period because of the labor, because of the materials. And that's why there's also things like thefts of silk and wardrobes and articles of clothing because they're valuable and because there's a huge secondhand market in Paris and throughout France as well, for clothing. And actually, that point is perfectly illustrated by the fact that her wardrobe, which belongs to France, it doesn't belong to her. It's a royal chattel, and people can come and view it at Versailles. They can come and see it. And that at the end of each year, her staff, the staff of her wardrobe, are allowed to choose pieces of their wardrobe which they can sell on, and that is part of their salary, even down to the kind of the very smallest sort of person in her wardrobe, like the garcons de gare des robes, who could choose things like ribbons. And so her whole wardrobe gets picked over at the end of the year. And that is because textiles are so valuable. And she does, as you said, she's hugely important in sponsoring them. She gives them what we call in England a royal warrant, for instance, which is a sort of a. I don't know what you call that in the States.
- [19:08]
April Callahan
Oh, I don't think we have a version of that.
- [19:11]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Okay.
- [19:12]
April Callahan
Let's just call it the 18th century version of a blue check mark.
- [19:15]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Yes, blue check mark. Perfect. Perfect. Yeah. So she gives them her public stamp of approval. I mean, she obviously wearing the wearing of silks visibly and all the kind of manner of silk accessories. I just say there are so many. But then also things like the printed cotton manufactories that she supports. You know, she has schemes of printed, beautiful printed cottons in her private apartments because it was a more informal textile, and throughout the Petit Trianon as well. And then. But yes, the most beautiful example, probably, of textiles profusion is the silk cladding in her formal bedchamber.
- [19:47]
April Callahan
So beautiful. Heartbreakingly beautiful, yeah.
- [19:51]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Heartbreakingly beautiful, yes. With the peacock feathers and the lilac. And it's just the most beautiful textile which they have had rewoven, obviously, because what you see now is a replica, but they still have a fragment of the original in the fire screen that you see when you go through that room as well.
- [20:15]
April Callahan
Cass. I think it's pretty safe to say that many of us at this moment are feeling stress due to not only our own personal lives, but also perhaps some global events. Personally, my sleep schedule has Been all over the place.
- [20:29]
Cassie Zachary
Agreed. And as a mom to a three year old, I also know all about sleep deprivation and that's one of the many reasons I I'm a huge fan of Calm. Calm is the number one app for sleep and meditation, and it's here to help you feel better. Leo and I love to snuggle up and fall asleep to any one of the dozens upon dozens of sleep stories available on this app. And this is just one of its many features. From expert LED talks, guided meditation, sleep stories, music, and even grounding exercises, the Calm app puts the tools you need right in your pocket.
- [20:59]
April Callahan
Well, it's no wonder then why the Calm app has over 2 million 5 star reviews. So join Cass and I in navigating the everyday as the best version of yourself. Calm your mind, change your life. Calm has an exclusive offer just for the listeners of our show. You can now get 40% off a Calm premium subscription at calm.com dressed. That's an amazing value.
- [21:26]
Cassie Zachary
Go to C-A-L-M.com dressed for 40% off unlimited access to Calm's entire library. Calm.com dressed and tell Calm. You heard about them from us.
- [21:39]
Avery Trufelman
In a time when the United States military is being sent into American cities, when civilians and soldiers are being pitted against each other, it's strange that we've never dressed more alike. We all wear performance clothes, we all wear outdoor clothes, whether or not we're outside civilians and soldiers. I'm Avery Trufelman. I make a podcast about clothing called Articles of Interest. And in this new season I trace the interwoven histories of the military and the outdoor industry and how they built each other. Find Articles of interest wherever you get your podcasts. And the season is called Gear.
- [22:20]
April Callahan
One of the things I also love so much about the exhibition catalog is when you go to Versailles and you go through the main palace and you go through the main route, right? Those are not necessarily all of the rooms. Obviously there's something like 2,300 rooms at Versailles. But even when you see Marie Antoinette's formal bedchamber and Louis formal bedchamber, there are rooms behind that. And in the exhibition catalog you give us photographs of some of those other more private spaces. And I was blown away by some of those textiles in those rooms as well, which were again created, designed and woven in specifically for her. For those rooms.
- [23:00]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Yes, they are beautiful rooms and they've just been restored. It was a 10 year restoration project and Versailles reopened them in 2023. And as you said, these are the private rooms that are directly behind the formal enfilage, behind the formal rooms. If you think about Versailles and you have the marble courtyard, and then the King and the Queen's apartments are on either side of the courtyard. And then. Right, you can see the door. You can see the door in the formal bed chamber which leads through to the private apartments. It's a conceal door. It's famously the door through which she escaped when the palace was under attack in 1789, when the March on Versailles. She escaped through that door. And behind them is this wonderful kind of labyrinth of private rooms, which are very intimate in size and where she only received her most trusted sort of servants, also her ladies in waiting, her children, her husband, obviously her lover too. So, yes, these are very private rooms. And it speaks to that, that desire, as we all know, that she had for privacy and for comfort. And generally the sort of story of her life is just this kind of. This trying to retreat from the public eye, this pursuit of personal happiness. Yeah, yeah.
- [24:09]
April Callahan
And might Rose Britann been one of those people invited into those apartments as well?
- [24:16]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Yes, there's some. I think there's still some debate about that. There's still some. She did have. Obviously, she had particularly good access. Rose Bertin. And there is still some debate. I've heard some French scholars say yes, I've heard some French creators say no, about whether Rose Bertin was allowed into those private rooms or not. But actually, what is really sweet when you go in there is that she has a special. Sorry, this is completely unrelated to Rose Bertin, but it's just very. It's just very striking when there are these little stairwells that you go down that connect the rooms because they are mezzanine levels. So they. So you have two floors in the equivalent of what is one big floor in the formal room, which is why you have so many more little private rooms. And there's a staircase that connects them, and in them is a special handrail for the children, which is at a child's height. And that is really very touching when you see that. But, yes. Did Rose Belton. Was she allowed in there or not? Did she gain that special access or not?
- [25:12]
April Callahan
To be determined. To be determined, we may never know. Okay, so let's talk more about the clothes themselves. So very few items of dress that belonged to Marie Antoinette still exist, but one of them that, and correct me if I'm wrong, is included in the show is a fragment of one of her robe a la francaise, which is amazing that this still exists. I'm hoping you can tell us more about this particular piece. And then also some of the other items, not all of which are fashion, I might add, that were known to belong to her, which are included in the exhibition.
- [25:45]
Dr. Sarah Grant
So as you've said that the wardrobe is looted in August 1792 during the sack of the Tuileries. And it's not just her wardrobe, it's everybody else, it's the ladies in waiting, it's the royal family because they had a sort of a semi functioning court at the Giry. And this goes on throughout Paris as well, in the kind of the aristocratic townhouses. Those are also looted. And I did my PhD partly on the Princess de Lamballe, who was her senior lady in waiting. And her wardrobe, also in her Paris town house, was also looted as well.
- [26:14]
April Callahan
And she met a very gruesome end, we must say. We don't have to get into that right now.
- [26:19]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Her life, I think, is almost worse than Marie Antoinette. Very nearly worse, actually. It's just a life blighted by tragedy, actually. But yes, sorry. So there are these two fragments that were researched by Juliette Tres, who is a former curator of Versailles. And then also Kimberly Christman Campbell also looked at these two fragments and they are in the collection of the Museum of London, which is now called the London Museum. And they supposedly came from Versailles in 1791 when the family is moved. I don't know if the that's liked. I feel like it's more likely they come from the lucid. The lucid wardrobe of 1792 from the Tuileries. I just feel like that seems more feasible. But they were given to the Museum of London by a descendant of a man called Benard, who said that he was involved with the wardrobe, with Marinette's wardrobe stuff, which is possible because although you have the Royal Almanac, which lists generally the most senior people, court officers, there are also the accounts of the wardrobe that list all the other different, more junior kind of roles. We have not found anyone called Bernard in those lists. But then there were still, as I mentioned, Garcon de Garderobe and other people who are not listed because they were not as important. So it's still possible that he was connected to the wardrobe. Anyway, these are two fragments of the most incredible beauty and we were able to X ray them here at the VNA because they had never been exhibited before, they had never been analyzed by in a conservation studio before. And so our science conservatives, the VA X rayed them and the sequins were solid silver and solid gold and all the thread was gold thread. And they're clearly fragments with a royal provenance. And so beautiful and so sparkling. And so in the exhibition, what we've done is we've simulated candlelight so that you can see all these gowns under sort of candlelight effect. Effects.
- [28:08]
April Callahan
Yeah, yeah. And what of some of her other belongings that are in the exhibition?
- [28:14]
Dr. Sarah Grant
So what else do we have? So we have one of her black lace colorette, one of her chokers that she wore, and there is this charming detail in the list of the wardrobe staff where there is a woman who was employed just to make those, just to make her lace kind of chokers. That was her role. That's all she did. And then we have her shoes and Marinette's shoes. They survive in greater numbers because obviously dresses can be cut up and sold and things can be repurposed. Often a lot of 18th century French dresses turn into ecclesiastical, you know, vestments. But shoes, you can't cut them up and turn them into something else. So shoes do survive in greater numbers. I think it's around between 20 or 30 of marriage shoes.
- [28:52]
April Callahan
And also she was, I think, ordering some, four new pair a week or something around. So they were abundant.
- [28:59]
Dr. Sarah Grant
They were abundant. They were abundant, absolutely, yes. So it's probably not surprising that there are more of them, but I think some of them, the kind of. The provenance is not particularly reliable, but the ones that we're showing in the exhibition have a completely uncontested provenance. And one of them is a formal mule, so it's a court shoe that she wore with the most formal type of dress, with the Grenavier. And then the other one is an everyday fashionable style, which is really lovely and has these little ruffled kind of pleats. So we have her shoes, and then we have also the wardrobe book from the National Archives in Paris from 1782, which shows this overview of all the silks that she purchased in one year, and which tells you what they all. And what the gowns, what kind of pannier she wore them with, and where the silk came from, and all this wonderful tantalizing detail. And we have to turn the page during the course of the exhibition because the exhibition is on for six months. So because of light exposure, we have to turn the page. So the first page that we have it open on is these amazing chine animal print silks. And then we're going to turn it to another page that has a beautiful turquoise velvet with these gold spangles and. And so, yeah, so that was a nice choice to have to make. So we have those. And I'm just thinking, what else do we have? We have her chemise, which is her underwear from when she was in the Temple Prison as well.
- [30:15]
April Callahan
And those are usually in the collection of the Musee Carnavale. Correct. And you can go see them when it comes back in Paris.
- [30:21]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Exactly. We've displayed it differently. So they display it flat and then because it is very fragile now. And we wanted to display it it upright because we wanted people to get a sense of her form. And so it looks quite ghostly. It's floating like an apparition in the case. And it was our textile conservative devised this new way of mounting it. And she developed these little magnets to put in it so that it's completely supported and safe and secure. But it just meant that you get more of a sense of marginal form when you look at it. Interesting.
- [30:53]
April Callahan
And there are also some decorative art objects and furniture and even some of her little cosmetics. Pots.
- [31:00]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Yes. Oh, yes. I felt like it was so important for people to get a sense of the real person and however you feel about her, to just make her more human. This is someone who died 232 years ago, and she so often is just this sentence in a history book. And so to try and bring her to life a little bit more was, I felt, important to do through the most intimate objects that. That belong to her, which we also could own, which we could relate to. And so having some of the objects from her toiletry case, like her little eyewash cup that she washed her eyes with, like the spittoon that she would have used when she was brushing her teeth, like the mortar and pestle that she would have used for grinding her cleansing paste, which we know from a bill, she used ground almond to exfoliate in her cleansing routine. And then we have her ewer and her basin. So that was for washing her face and her hands. And her powder pot, as you said. Yeah. Which she would have used with a swan's down powder puff. So that was really important to me.
- [31:59]
April Callahan
It's very romantic and charming.
- [32:02]
Dr. Sarah Grant
It is. We have her hair. I forgot to mention as well, we.
- [32:05]
April Callahan
Have her hair, too, in a piece of jewelry.
- [32:09]
Dr. Sarah Grant
We have her jewels. Yeah, we have her jewels. And so this was something that also gave impetus to the exhibition because for so long, nobody knew where Marinette's jewels actually were. The ones that belonged personally to her. Not the crown. Crown jewels. And the ones that she smuggled out of the tree before they tried to leave and they were reunited with her daughter. And then they basically descend all the Way through the Bourbon Palmer line until the family decided to sell them for the first time in 2018. So these have only come up during our lifetimes that these jewels have only finally resurfaced and come to market. And jewels were such an important part of the whole fashion. To the extent that they're mentioned in the wardrobe accounts, the jewels are almost another accessory. They're seen as part of getting dressed, part of that, and the fact that you had to sew them on and the fact that she wore them across her bodice and she wore them on the formal dress at the sides and she wore them in her hair. And she had someone in her wardrobe. Sorry, going back again to the account, she had someone in her wardrobe who just cleaned diamonds and she had someone in her wardrobe who just threaded pearls and. Yes. So it was really, it felt really special to get those and reunite them with her jewelry box. So this is the jewelry box from Versailles that was in her bedroom and which she put her personal jewels in.
- [33:25]
April Callahan
Yeah. One of the things I loved learning and I can't remember if it's in the exhibition catalog or maybe it's in Antonia Fraser's book, but when she first arrived at Versailles, King Louis xv, upon her arrival, sent her an entire chest of jewels. Okay. Now this wasn't just a chest, it was like a ginormous, like coffin sized box full of jewels. And the box itself was a luxury object in and of itself. But it's just staggering. And these were some of the royal jewels.
- [33:55]
Dr. Sarah Grant
It's staggering. Yeah, it is staggering. Yes. Yes, it is. I think it was multi leveled as well, wasn't it? It had like all these levels with the jewels. To be fair, his Louis XVI's parents, he was an orphan and his parents died. And so some of these were his mother's, his mother's jewels. And also some of them were the previous Queen's jewels. And I think, and actually what I find so interesting about jewellery in the 18th century is how everything gets reset and they take stones out of something and they put it into something else and then they refashion it into this. And Marinette in her jewellery accounts has a lot of just loose stones that are just floating around that she might turn into a button or that she might put into her hair that she might have set into shoe buckles. So. Yes, but the incredible gift that Louis XV gives her, and he also gives her a diamond encrusted fan as well and a pair of bracelets with her monogram in the bracelet clasps as well. And Also pearls. He gives her the pearls belonging to her late mother in law as well. Yeah, two fabulous gifts.
- [34:50]
April Callahan
And you can see Marie Antoinette's monogram not just in the main palace at Versailles, it's all over the place at Petit Trianon as well. She had some of the wrought iron on the staircases changed out to include her monogram. Sometimes you see it in her textiles or the little fenestration on the ceiling as well, in different spaces.
- [35:08]
Dr. Sarah Grant
It's so beautiful, don't you think, how many different ways it's used? Used from very small to, as you said, the wrought iron monogram. It's everywhere and it's so creatively used.
- [35:19]
April Callahan
Okay, so speaking of gems and cost and expenditures, I want to frame this in context for people just a bit. Records indicate that say in 1785 she spent somewhere near 258,000 livres on her wardrobe, which is somewhere around £1.6 million today. I'm hoping that we can open up a discussion about her expenditures in context of what was expected of her as queen and what other people might have been spending as well at the same time, and how her spending was portrayed publicly as a critique of her into the mid-1780s, just before the revolution.
- [36:00]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Yes, as you said, so when she arrives, she's still Dauphine, but when she becomes queen. And second, 1774, she has given her annual wardrobe budget, which is the budget that was also given to the previous queen and actually hasn't changed in 50 years. She was always going to exceed it because it had not basically hadn't even moved with inflation, it hadn't evolved. So she does exceed it. And that is the equivalent. The first budget that she's given is the equivalent of a million dollars in today's money. And as you said, she goes on to exceed that. And I think the most she spends in one year in the 1780s is $1.8 million. The equivalent to $1.8 million dollars is the most. At the same time, France is almost bankrupt when she arrives. The spending, I mean, there's been ruinous spending by previous monarchs and then in particular on wars. So if you compare her wardrobe budget, for instance, to the budget for wars, I mean, they spent. France spent the equivalent of almost 11 and a half billion dollars billion on just the American War of Independence. So just on supporting the American War of Independence. So nothing that she is spending is driving France into ruin. And you have to remember the previous Queen also spent very lavishly, but she didn't have the kind of eye catching personality that Marie Antoinette had. She didn't attract attention the same way. And then also the King's brothers. One example, I think that's really fascinating is that there is huge criticism when Louis XVI purchases Saint Cloud, which is the summer chateau for Marie Antoinette for them to go to, which is towards the end of the. Toward the ends of their life lives, and at the same time. So 6 million livres that cost. He absolves the debts of his brother, the Comte d', Artois, to the tune of 20 million livres. So the king's. Yeah, so the king's brothers spend far more in total and cost far more than Marie Antoinette does. The most expensive things that Marianne Antoinette does is really the Petit Trianon. So landscaping that, refurbishing that, holding parties and celebrations and illuminated fashion balls in the Petit Trianon, that is really the most, most expensive part of her spending. But yes, she is associated as this kind of spend thrift queen. And there's this kind of this extreme irony that if she's not wearing silk and if she's not performing publicly and that if she's not presenting this amazing regal spectacle, then she's. She's hugely criticized. But then at the same time, the spending that is involved in doing that is also criticised. And I think the court itself, the cost of maintaining the court is around 6% of the national budget. And it is this very bizarre kind of economy where, you know, the salaries, for instance, that they pay their ladies in waiting, which are substantial, the ladies in waiting are actually supposed to spend on the wardrobes that they need to be at Versailles and the entertaining that they're supposed to be doing for the queen. So the Princess de Lamballe has to spend lavishly on a court wardrobe that's appropriate to the etiquette of Versailles, and she also has to entertain the Queen in her apartment. And all of that costs huge amounts of money, as does all the sort of staff that they have to employ and everything. So it's this kind of monster that's gotten out of controls and was very.
- [39:02]
April Callahan
Much seized upon for political purposes by critics, enemies, political opponents. And we see this all over the press and especially in fashion satire. You are a print specialist, of course. Do you have any favorite Marie Antoinette moments in terms of. Of satirical prints?
- [39:21]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Gosh, there's so many, aren't there? I love the Triumph of Coquetry, actually, which we don't have, sadly, at the V. An impression of it, but the Met Museum in New York has an impression of it, which is the one of all the women who look like Marinette with their kind of Robelle Polinaus. And they all have their big sort of high hairstyles and they're jousting on, on in the water on boats and with all their feathers and toppling over and looking ridiculous. And I love the ones that show things like. Which aren't even. Which aren't even an exaggeration of the entire landscape in your hairstyle. You have a little gardener kind of cutting the bushes in the landscape in your hairstyle or ducks on a lake. Apparently there was one that one of the duchesses had that had a working windmill in it. And I mean they were ripe for sort of satire. They were so easy. It was such an easy target. But yes, it is the kind of. It's the excesses of the 1770s in particular that are drawn on by that people criticize in particular. And even Mary Janet's own mother says to her, I hear that know you, you've bought some diamonds and is this true? And the rumors and the reports are reaching Vienna and I hear that you wear your hairstyles to this ridiculous height and that you're wearing all these ridiculous feathers and is this true? And. But Marienstanette is a teenager. She's 18 when she becomes queen and she's a young woman in her 20s, in her first decade as queen. And I feel that that's what I felt Sofia Coppola's film and Antonia Fraser's biography did so was that they tried to place this in a bit more context and they tried to understand a bit more about her life and her circumstances. She wasn't going to behave like a 50 year old woman when she was 18. Right. Even if it is the 18th century.
- [40:53]
April Callahan
Yeah, yeah. I always say that this period of the 1770s is one of the apexes of the artifice of fashion. And I think that is one of the things that has captivated so many people's imaginations moving forward. Not just, just fashion designers and filmmakers, but also one other particular royal, a Marie Antoinette super fan, one of her first super fans. What was Empress Eugenie's fascination with the former French queen?
- [41:23]
Dr. Sarah Grant
I think she sees this. She is foreign as well. So Marinette, you know, her father's French, but she's Austrian. She. And actually, interestingly enough, Louis XVI's mother is German. So they actually both had as much French blood the one as the other. But she comes to marry Napoleon iii, she comes from Spain. She feels that she, like Marinette, is seen as this kind of interloper, sort of unwelcome foreign consort. And I think she's of a particularly melancholy and romantic kind of frame of mind as well. So she. Marineto's story is so extraordinary and so tragic and so she's spellbound by it and she feels that she might come to suffer a similar fate, which is not actually that far off. She also has to flee the tide de la palace as well, like Marie Janet. And she lives in exile. She doesn't. She's not executed, obviously. But so she sees this connection with her and then she identifies. What I think everyone has identified was that Marie Antoinette had exquisite taste and that the fashions, as you said, of the sort of her reign are the very peak of sort of production in dress history. You're looking at all these remarkable trades that came together to produce something, something so beautiful, whether it's the silks or whether it's the British cottons or the silk ribbons or the stockings or the shoes or the hairstyles or the feathers or the jewels, all of that confection is so exquisite. And so she is inspired by it. She stages the first exhibition of Marie Antoinette in 1867. She's in a way, the first kind of curator of Marie Antoinette. And that's at the pretty triennal. And she identifies that it's important to start reassembling Marie Antoinette's objects because everything was dispersed first in the revolutionary sales of the 1793 and 1794, the revolutionaries sold all the contents of the royal palaces. Everything was gone. And they sold it all for well below its value as well. That's how so much of it ended up in England. And so she starts to reunite objects and bring them back to the palace and put them in the rooms. And so she is hugely important as a pioneer really in making sure that Mary Jeanette has accorded her due. And yet. Yes. So she is the first person to really create that revival of interest in marriage. Nurture.
- [43:27]
April Callahan
Yeah. And that interest has not ceased to this very day.
- [43:37]
Jack Bishop
This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. It's Cybersecurity Awareness month and Lifelock has tips to protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication, report phishing and update the software on your devices. And for comprehensive identity protection, let Lifelock alert you to suspicious uses of your personal information. Lifelock also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, safe and protected with a 30 day free trial@lifelock.com Podcast terms apply.
- [44:06]
Degree Cool Rush Advertiser
We all love a legendary comeback and degree. Original Cool Rush is back and better than ever. Cool Rush isn't just a scent, it's a movement, a fan favorite that delivers bold, fresh vibes and all day sweat protection. Whether you have a man that spends hours in the gym, heads into the office early, or is just trying to stay fresh on a long day, Cool Rush has their back. Head to your local Walmart or Target and grab degree Cool Rush, the fan favorite scent from the world's number one antiperspirant brand.
- [44:40]
April Callahan
I'm hoping that we can now turn our attention to the other portion of the exhibition, which is of course, some of the myriad of examples how fashion designers have been inspired by Marie Antoinette's style throughout centuries. Really, when do we start to see some of Marie Antoinette's style referenced by fashion designers proper? And might you give us some of the earliest examples?
- [45:06]
Dr. Sarah Grant
The first example is Charles Frederick Wirth. He is the first, if you think of him as the godfather of couture and the first sort of proper sort of fashion designer. His gowns for Empress Eugenie are some of the first. She liked to dress up as Mary Janet. She liked to dress up in 18th century styles. And so the silhouettes that he borrows, like the Robelle Epolonaise, like, you know, the Robeille Anglaise, all those silhouettes of Marie Janette's court, he reimagines and reworks for a 19th century taste, using similar textiles as well, using metal lace, using velvets, all those things. And then in the Art Deco period, we see Lanvange and Lanvin's Robe de Sil, which is based on the pannier silhouette. And we have examples of those in the exhibition. We have a lovely buaisur example. Thinking of your friend who is the expert on Buai Sereur. And so we see this Diaphanous, really beautiful 1920s examples with dropped waist, but over a pannier silhouette, and also with embroidery and ribbon work that's inspired by the 18th century too. And so then we bring it right up to date. We have, I think we have something from the 1990s by Galliano Fedior, but really from 1990s onwards, then it's just kind of full steam ahead. Really up until right now. I was looking at Jonathan Anderson's collection for Dior, which includes again, pannier gowns, Schiaparelli's pannier gowns, again with that kind of transparent diaphanous material over them that I mentioned, which we have in the exhibition. There was this big craze across the summer for marionette style wedding gowns. There's the, obviously there's the Vivienne Westwood style Sort of marriagenet wedding gown. But then this was other designers doing it too. And I saw Miley Cyrus was dressing up as Mariannette. Yeah. No, I feel like it's so current still.
- [46:50]
April Callahan
And the fodder for countless editorial fashion shoots. We must add.
- [46:54]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Yes, absolutely. Little Nas X. I know. That is a wonderful. I think that is a really wonderful kind of drawing on inspiration. And we did look at. We did a lot of research looking at music videos, music artists. We could only show so many in the exhibition. Obviously, Madonna's kind of performance at the MTV Music Awards is really famous when she performs Vogue wearing Glenn Close's dress from Dangerous Liaisons. But yes, I mean, Beyonce, arguably Taylor Swift. There are lots of musical artists who have drawn on Dua. Lipa is another one. Yes. That's sort of countless examples, actually. And Rihanna is another one, too. There are so many different examples you could give.
- [47:32]
April Callahan
Okay, so you have a very busy day. I know that our time together is coming to an end, but I want to ask you one last question, and that is, after all of this time that you have spent thinking about Marie Antoinette, this time period, the specific material culture of this time period, I'm wondering if you have any specific takeaways or if you came away with any new thoughts or understanding of the queen of fashion.
- [47:59]
Dr. Sarah Grant
I think some of the research that I did do that surprised me was how much of what appears in her portraits was real. I think so often you think that it's an artist's kind of interpretation or that it's a fantasy that they sit for the portrait, but that the dress is just imagined or made up. But actually, all the dress that she wore for her portraits were real pieces from her wardrobe. And the more research we did in the course of the exhibition in the clearer that became actually. And to the extent that you can connect, you can make connections. So that was really interesting. But I think that probably the overall. I think what's amazing to me is walking through the exhibition and seeing people in the exhibition and seeing and overhearing what they're saying or what they're looking at is. It is amazing how much she still fascinates that. I think you. You're an expert in dress, so you're so used to these, to hearing about Marie Jeanette and her wardrobe and everything, and then modern designers drawing on it and everything. She still holds this incredible hold over people, over their imagination. And so it is interesting to me how every generation has interpreted her slightly differently or taken something slightly different from her. And I feel like our generation at the moment is so interested in her personal story and her personal kind of sorrows and that the idea that she was someone who was interested in, you know, carving an identity and self expression and trying to live this idea of sort of personal happiness to me is something I think resonates very strongly with our generation. Expressing yourself through fashion. And also because now we have this amazing world of fashion, academics like you people understand now that fashion is an superficial. The fashion does have a deep kind of meaning and conveys so much about our time. Yeah.
- [49:45]
April Callahan
And we always talk about fashion being political on dressed, which some people, it's hard for them to initially wrap their brain around it, but she really is the supreme example of this. So many times within her life, she got herself in trouble just from the very fact of dress.
- [50:01]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Yes. She was a victim of her own success, wasn't she? Because she did it so well that she drew too much attention and drew the wrong attention and then becomes a target.
- [50:12]
April Callahan
Yeah. Our favorite fashion superstar, Sarah, thank you so much for your time. Your amazing exhibition. I am trying to plot my way over the pond. Will never forgive myself if I don't see it. And I am popping over back to Paris soon.
- [50:29]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Oh, good. Okay. We're just a short Eurostar journey. Yes, you must come.
- [50:35]
April Callahan
Thank you so much for your time and your wonderful exhibition.
- [50:38]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Thank you for having me.
- [50:39]
Cassie Zachary
Sarah, thank you so much for joining us to speak about your stunning exhibition and the queen of fashion herself and dress. Listeners, run, do not walk to the Victoria and Albert Museum through March 22, 2026 to steep yourself in the splendor of this period. What a treat to actually get to see the exceptionally rare examples of Marie Antoinette own possessions as well as the incredible artistry of the era that surrounded her.
- [51:06]
April Callahan
Yes. And Cass, truly, Sarah and I could have probably talked for at least another.
- [51:10]
Cassie Zachary
Hour, I believe it.
- [51:12]
April Callahan
But her schedule that day precluded us in doing so. And there really is so much more to say about the woman who in many ways was unfairly maligned much of her reign by opposing political forces. For instance, did you know that in addition to the four royal children she birthed, she actually adopted several others? This is new information to me.
- [51:37]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Did you know this?
- [51:37]
Cassie Zachary
Interesting. I did not.
- [51:39]
April Callahan
Yeah. And there is legal documentation of this. And today we might think of the arrangement more as like a foster parent, foster child relationship. But one of those children that she adopted, fostered, whose name was Jean Amelcat, was actually an enslaved Sudanese boy who was originally presented to her as a page by a misguided courtier. And Marie Antoinette, upon receiving this quote unquote, gift of a fellow human, was horrified and she freed him immediately and then went on to financially support him for the rest of his life, including his formal education at one of the finest boarding schools in France. France. And she was even still supporting him through the days of her imprisonment during the French Revolution and afterwards. There were certain arrangements that were made after her execution for him to attend an art trade school, but it was like one of those nice ones where it's like you learn like an artisanal craft. And I just want to share this story to underscore that there's a lot more to the Queen of Fashion that a lot of people just don't know about today.
- [52:46]
Dr. Sarah Grant
Yeah.
- [52:47]
Cassie Zachary
And people just want to focus on the negative. Right? Or even just what she wore. But there is a woman, a very real woman, a human woman, who apparently had a very big heart as you just shared behind the seams of what she wore. So this story and many others that that didn't make it into this episode are all detailed in the exhibition catalog, which is fantastic. So if you cannot make it to the exhibition in person, you can grab a copy of Marie Antoinette at Style the catalog, which is out now in the UK and will be released this week in the us so grab a copy. Highly recommend.
- [53:21]
April Callahan
I think that does it for us today. Dress listeners. May you consider the myriad of ways the legacy of the Queen of Fashion might just reside in your wardrobe next time you get dressed. If you would like to follow along on our socials this week for content pertaining to this episode, you can use the hashtag dress dressed 5, 6, 7. That's dressed 5 6, 7.
- [53:43]
Cassie Zachary
And do not forget that registration for our New York City Fashion History Day tours are in full swing coming your way December 3rd, 4th and 5th. We love to think of these days as mix and match separates. So you can join us for one, two or all three days and we are going to be visiting museum fashion exhibitions, going behind the scenes of world class fashion collections, music meeting museum curators, past dressed guests and expert costume designers along the way. And this is actually the second edition of our New York Day tour offerings. This year we did one in April, so this is coming your way in December. And this trip is offering a very new experience that we're very excited about. We'll be going to the Metropolitan Opera for the first time for private tours of their current exhibition and into the Opera's costume shops for really a one of a kind experience created exclusively for Drast.
- [54:35]
April Callahan
Even if you can't join us in NYC as a dressed listener, the Metropolitan Opera is thrilled to offer an exclusive 20% discount for tickets for selected performances this December and January. Restrictions apply. Use the promo code dressed or visit metopera.org dressed to redeem this very special offer. To secure your seats, you can also visit the Met's website, which is of course metopra.org or call Ticket Services at 212-362-6000. Please head to restpodcast on Instagram or Rest Podcast without the underscore on Facebook to check out the visual content associated with each week's episodes.
- [55:23]
Cassie Zachary
And remember, we always love hearing from you, so if you'd like to write to us, you can do so@hellorusthistory.com DressedHistory.com is also our website where you can sign up for our monthly newsletter, our in person tours and online fashion history courses. And you can check out whatever else we have up our finely tailored sleeves.
- [55:41]
April Callahan
We get so many questions from you all about our recommendations for fashion history books, so if you are interested you can always find a link in our show notes to our Bookshop Bookshelf. So that address is bookshop.org shop dress and there you can find over 150 of our favorite fashion history titles and.
- [56:02]
Cassie Zachary
Do you love Dressed but want to skip the ads? You can now sign up for ad free listening with any tier on our Dressed History Patreon.
- [56:10]
April Callahan
We are also excited to now be part of the Airwave Network work and their premium ad free history subscription Airwave History plus available on Apple Podcasts. The subscription brings dressed and also 27 other popular history podcasts ad free for just 5.99 per month. More information on Patreon and Airwave is available at the link in our bio.
- [56:33]
Cassie Zachary
Thank you as always for tuning in and more Dressed coming your way very soon. The history of Fashion is a production of Dressed Media.
- [56:46]
Jack Bishop
Hi listeners, it's Jack Bishop. I'm the ingredients guy on America's Test Kitchens public television show and the host of our award winning podcast Proof. Proof combines history, science and culture to tell unexpected stories about food. Every episode is filled with aha moments that you'll want to share at your next dinner party. New episodes drop every Thursday. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and you might never look at food the same way again.