← Dressed: The History of Fashion
Dressed: The History of Fashion
The First Book of Fashion: 16th Century Fashion Blogging with Ulinka Rublack and Maria Hayward (Dressed Classic)
00:51:31
Loading summary
Transcript89 lines
- [00:03]
A
Kids, they grow up so fast. One day they're taking their first steps and the next they don't fit into the tiny sneakers they took them in. You blink your eyes and their princess dress is two sizes too small. And their dinosaur backpack isn't cool anymore. But don't cry because they're growing up. Smile because you can profit off of it for real. There are a bunch of parents on depop looking for the stuff your kid just grew out of. Download depop to start selling.
- [00:33]
B
So good, so good, so good.
- [00:35]
C
New Year New gear. Thousands of fresh active styles are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Save on top brands like Nike, Puma and free people starting at just $35.
- [00:46]
B
How did I not know Rack has Adidas?
- [00:48]
D
There's always something new.
- [00:50]
C
Plus, join the Nordy Club to shop new arrivals first, unlock exclusive discounts and more. Great brands, great prices.
- [00:57]
D
That's why you wreck Please enjoy one of our favorite episodes from the Dressed archive of over 500 plus shows. The history of fashion is a production of dressed media. With over billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day we all get dressed.
- [01:34]
B
Welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast that explores the who, what, when of why we wear. We are fashion historians and your hosts, April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary.
- [01:47]
D
Dress listeners, today we bring you an episode that has been years in the making about a very special 16th century book of fashion that both April and I happen to have in our personal collections.
- [02:00]
B
Yes, or maybe we should specifically say that we have a copy of this.
- [02:05]
D
Book of fashion.
- [02:08]
B
Which is entitled the First Book of Fashion and subtitled the Book of Clothes by Mateos and Fight Conrad Schwartz of Oseberg.
- [02:17]
D
And that is because this has to be one of the most gobsmackingly beautiful primary sources in the history of European fashion. April, I'm sure you agree with me, it's insane sane. So where today a fashion influencer can take a photograph and instantly post it to social media, this was not a luxury afforded to, say, a well to do fashion conscious accountant by the name of mateus Schwartz. In 16th century Renaissance era Germany, as a member of the mercantile elite, fashion was incredibly important in projecting Mateos's wealth and status. So important in fact, that over the course of 40 years he hired a team of artists to capture his and his son's fights, sartorial triumphs, and a series of incredibly detailed images that can only be described as illuminated manuscripts.
- [03:04]
B
Yes, and this book, or these books are truly extraordinary. And really they are these incredibly rare records that speak to both the personal and societal significance of dress during the Renaissance and today. We are so pleased to welcome to the show the historians responsible for bringing it to us in full brilliant color, Maria Hayward and Ulinka Rublak, who, as historians of early modern European history, are responsible for writing the accompanying text and the book's reprinting. And that text contextualizes the book's significance within that period. And we are so, so pleased to welcome them to the show.
- [03:47]
D
Maria, Alinka, thank you both so much for joining me on Dressed.
- [03:51]
E
Hello. It's lovely to be with you, Cassidy.
- [03:54]
F
Very nice to be with you. Yes.
- [03:56]
D
So first, I would just love to hear about how you both came to collaborate on this incredible book about another incredible book from history.
- [04:05]
F
So I was aware of Maria's path breaking work on the dress of the court of Henry viii. And then we met through a network on early modern dress and textiles that was convened by Evelyn Walsh and was really pioneering and putting together people from different backgrounds. So historians of literature, historians, curators, conservators, and people who were engaged in reconstruction. And for this project, I realized that working together with Maria would be a dream.
- [04:36]
D
Absolutely. And how did you come to find this book or did it find you?
- [04:40]
F
I would say it found me. So I was aware of it for a long time because it's so unique. And then my biggest wish was because the only edition of it there was in German, was black and white, and it's a book full of color for the 16th century. So I was lucky to meet the editor from Bloomsbury who said, what would you like to do next? After I published my previous book, Dressing up, and I said, I would love to do an edition of the first book of fashion, as we came to call it, in color. And she said, well, let's go for it. And then working on that with Maria was just wonderful.
- [05:21]
D
Yeah. And I mean, dress listeners, if you've not seen this book, you're going to have to get your hands on a copy of it. It was just published this past year or so in a paperback edition and it is just so incredibly Olinka, as you just spoke, to vividly colored, vivid depictions of dress over 30, 40 some years. And something that we're going to dive into today on this episode. So first I would love if you could just introduce us to Mateus and Feit Conrad Swartz and their books of fashion.
- [05:52]
F
So Matthias and Feit Conrad Schwartz live in augsburg during the 16th century. Matthias is born as the son of a wine merchant in 1497, and he's a Great example for the social mobility of people at the time. So he comes to work for the Fugger Merchant Company. So that's one of the most powerful merchant companies at the time. As an accountant. As an accountant. And he's really interested in the arts, he's really interested in history. And he starts when he's around 20, this absolutely extraordinary project, which is to chronicle in 137 images how he was dressed as a child, how he's dressing when he's undertaking that project. And he carries on doing this into his late life, so his 60s. And then he even inspires his son, Fay Conrad, to start a book on his own. So that takes us in terms of the chronicling of fashion up to 1561. So we have a complete record for both of them for what men dressed like in the Renaissance. Yeah.
- [06:58]
D
And of course an era in the pre digital age. Right. We're talking hundreds and hundreds of years ago. So for someone to have documented what they wore in such detail and in such a regular basis, it's just an incredible record and also an incredibly rare record that we're all, of course, as cultural historians, as fashion historians, as lovers of art can all really appreciate. But more than just an exercise in self preservation, these books are really a reflection of the time that Mateos and Feit lived and arguably helped to shape Alinka. I would love if you could please set the scene for us. What was 16th century Augsburg, Germany like? And how did its cultural environment inspire Mateos to record his film Fashion for posterity?
- [07:42]
F
So Augsburg 500 years ago is really a hub of politics and the economy and all the changes that are going on at the time. So we're talking about period of the oceanic explorations. Much more global trade is going on and therefore many more goods circulate, many more dyes circulate. And through his connections with the Fugger Merchant Company, he's got his hands mateus on many of these materials or he's aware of influences also. People and information circulate a lot more. You know, I think this is the first age of printing. And so he's got access to vintage items from Italy and he uses the whole network of people who work in different places in Europe for the Fugger to source some of the items and he wears. But you would have also received much more information about how people else were dressed. So it's quite a unique time, as I said, also of social mobility. Augsburg is a weaving town, so a lot of the are not that well off. They make fustian cloth, which is a humble cloth. But, you know, the whole vibrancy of being involved in textile manufacturing is very evident in that city in particular.
- [08:58]
D
And it's really fascinating, too, because this is a time shaped by, among many factors, you know, kind of this global new trade network that's happening, the Renaissance, the Protestant Reformation. And then, of course, Maria, which you'll speak to, hopefully, the rise of fashion is this social phenomenon across Europe where you have, like, this rising merchant class who can now afford to express themselves so visually through clothing. And I've actually never considered the Protestant Reformation in the context of the European fashion system. So it's actually an interesting contrast to consider.
- [09:30]
F
Yes, absolutely. So the reason Reformation matters is because it makes people like Matthias Schwartz think about time, the passing of time, and he does that. That's, again, so unique about this book, which is manuscript. He calls it his Book of Clothes, but it's actually a very precious manuscript on vellum, and therefore the colors are so vibrant. Right. But it's not printed, and I don't think it was ever meant to be printed. It's very personal. And what he wants to document is just his experience of change over time, which he doesn't quite understand. Why is it, he asked that, you know, people just, even 10, 20 years ago did dress so differently. And he's very f, on the one hand off some of these clothing traditions, but also going with the time and looking forward. And he knows that everything he does at any moment will look quite odd in. In just five years time. So in that sense, capturing that transitory notion also of time and fashion, he's very much a man of his time that experiences so much change.
- [10:35]
D
Absolutely. And something that we'll talk about a little bit later on is the contrast in fashions between the father and son. So you actually get to also observe not just the evolution of fashion over this time, but also how it compared across generations. So in the book, you write that Mateos and Feit were the world's first fashion bloggers. But more than just being sartorially savvy, Mateos was an exceptionally creative Renaissance man. So what does Mateos and Feit's attention to dress reflect beyond just aesthetics? You spoke a little bit to it with the transition of time, but what else does it speak to?
- [11:11]
F
It's really about the way in which dress expressed, obviously, status, aspiration, but also emotion. I mean, Fyde Conrad chronicles his life in fashion as a young man, and most of the images of Matthias also chronicle his time as a young man trying to find, frankly, a woman So a lot of the dress really expresses his excitement about flirtation, but also his hope for love. So he wears heart shaped bags and, and you know, and the color of green when he goes out into the streets. And he wears little vase almost like with carnations and so. And I think this is something we just weren't aware of. So, you know, the status aspiration thing, prestigious objects and so on, that's what we're used to in analysis. But that really it's about displaying all these emotions up to his marriage. Then he's got a very telling marriage portrait because things don't go into plan. He actually marries someone, he from the, the same company, the daughter of someone in the company. And he shows himself even when he marries just from the back, but in an amazing fur coat. So, you know, the fact that clothing was for men, such a vehicle to express ideas and emotions, that's something we were less aware of.
- [12:32]
D
Yeah, and I'm actually, I love that you mentioned those heart shaped purses because that's definitely one of my favorite items or accessories featured in the book. And I think you write that it's romanticized love translated into commodity, which is perhaps something we are familiar with today. But the sentimentality of that accessory that he's wearing and walking around with, as you mentioned, expression of his emotion, it's a lovely sentiment. These books are extraordinary in that they allow us to track the evolution of men's fashion across some 50 plus years, from the 1490s to the 1560s. So Maria, what were the standard pieces of men's dress at this time? And how did they evolve across Mateo's and Feit's lifetime? And perhaps just starting with the clothing practices dictated by the evolution from infant to child.
- [13:22]
E
So if we look at the sort of fashion life cycle, as it were, within the context of these men's lives, we see them, their first clothing is swaddling. And so we see this initial practice that is then followed by a transition into what is referred to as coats. So essentially we see them as little boys dressed in a long garment that is usually buttoned down the front and with skirts. So in that sense, the clothing for young boys is to the modern eye, quite similar to that that you might expect young girls to be wearing. Although there are some distinct and important sort of differences that would have meant to contemporaries they were very clearly masculine. And in terms of looking at the examples we have for Matthias, we see that he is wearing this, these coats until he is seven and where he proclaims, in fact proudly, that he was seven years and two months. And at this point we see him in his first tight fitting, doublet and even tighter fitting hose. And this sort of marks that transition into adult male clothing. And from this point onwards we see him becoming increasingly fashionable in his appearance. Although in those early years, from sort of 7 to 14, we he's at school, I suppose his natural enthusiasm for clothing is maybe held in line a little bit by the requirements of education. But at 14 he starts to represent his father's business and his clothes now become a reflection of his father. And as such we start to see him having more money to spend on his appearance and it becomes more fashionable. And then at the age of 15, I think we have the first really striking striped, slashed, very tight outfit. And I think this then maps onto exactly what Olinka was talking about. This sense of young male, male culture that is driven in part by engaging with his male friends, but also in part that sort of the beginnings of interest in romance and where clothes might help him attract some female attention. And so from this point onwards we see an amazing progression of clothes, sort of one outfit after another. And as Linka mentioned, I think the next point where we see a distinct change is at the point when he becomes engaged to be married when he's 41. So he's finally thinking of about shedding some of these very tight, striped, slashed, brightly colored garments in favor of something that maybe sort of fits a little bit more with that marriage status. They're still eminently fashionable, but they're a little bit more somber, a little less tight. And then as we move through his life, I think one of the most poignant images is the one where it's thought that it's after he's had a stroke and he's recuperating and we see him dressed informally at home, surrounded by his children. And while he goes back to, to fashionable dress after that, it is never as flamboyant. In fact, you know, comfort, warmth, these are the things that are as important as looking good in his clothes. So in that sense you see his relationship with clothes and fashion develop over time. It's reflected in the garments he has, but also his aspirations and I think probably also his relationship with his body. So, you know, when he's young and fit, he, those clothes are tight and he's showing off his physique and. And then by the end of the point where he's recording his life, which isn't actually the end of his life, but the last drawings we have acknowledge a change in Body shape less active and a more sort of maybe introverted view of life and himself.
- [17:07]
D
And can you speak maybe just what those standard items of male attire were in the early 16th century?
- [17:13]
E
Yes, absolutely. So if we start at the top, no well dressed man, especially if Matthias status. So men across all ranks indeed would have worn a hat. Headwear was an important vehicle for displaying their taste, but often it would be decorated with badges that might reflect cultural or religious influences and interests. But if we then start to look at his body, first and foremost, that he would have a linen shirt. This was very important to protect his body from the outer layers of clothing, but also protect that clothing from his own skin. Skin in terms of laundry wasn't so straightforward for those outer garments. So the shirt plays a very important function. And we see lots of wonderful illustrations of shirts with both front fastening and side neck fastening. Over the shirt would come the main sort of upper body garment, which is the doublet, predominantly. And we see a beautiful evolution of these in terms of style from those with the sort of low, round neckline, usually side fastening in the early stages, moving through to buy the sort of 1550s and 1560s, something that is tight fitting to the body, longer and also buttoning usually up the center front and with a high stand collar. If we look at the waist down, men would have had hose. And these sort of vary in style and they are one of the great sort of markers of the sort of changing decades, as it were. They probably change more than the doublet does. And so in the 1520s and 30s we see him wearing those amazing slashed, puffed and very vibrantly coloured hose. But by the time we get to say, the 1540s, and more importantly, when we look at Veit Conrad, we see him wearing the trunk hose with a very sort of full upper, upper stocks and then the tight sort of stockings underneath. And then over that, dependent on what you were doing and the occasion and the date, you would have had an outer garment as well. So for instance, in the 1510s and 20s we see Matthias wearing a gown. By the time we get to the 1540s, these might still be fashionable for older men, but for younger men they're sliding out of the sort of desirable repertoire. And they will then be replaced by the short little cloak that we see by Conrad wearing in lots of his images.
- [19:36]
D
And we can't forget that Cod piece because I think that's such a fascinating marker of masculinity historically and something that I think you quote someone, Gregorius Wagner in the book, who said that the codpiece attracted attention, quote, as if there was sweet honeycomb inside. I mean, it's such a fascinating, I guess, accessory, as it were, and piece of clothing that is very specific to this one moment in time and dress listeners, we've done a whole podcast episode on the codpiece and then also the role of accessories. Right. Linka spoke about those heart shaped purses. You both write about how they played an essential role in shaping male identity, which again, is something maybe not as familiar to us today. So these books are also extraordinary in that they allow us to observe, as I mentioned earlier, not just the clothing choices of two generations, but the clothing choices of a father and a son. So who in many ways had very different tastes and approaches to dressing. Can you speak to what ways they maybe were similar and then what ways they. They differed from one another?
- [20:39]
E
Well, as Linka noted, I think they both use clothing to, to stress a sort of youthful rebellion at various points, but they also do use it to sort of assert their position in Augsburg society. And I think that's one of the things that we see with Matthias that, you know, there's that strong sense running through the book of his, his progression in business, how he progresses through the firm, his social and political advancement, as it were, culminating in his ennoblement. And then on the sort of the personal side, we see him looking for a bride and then marrying and having children. So there's that sense of there are a number of different sort of patterns in his life that run through, I think for me, certainly, I suspect Olinka might have another view. But I certainly find that one of the things that's very interesting about Conrad is that, you know, on the one hand he sort of rather father denounces both his father's interest in fashion and the whole idea of keeping the book as sort of foolish activity, but then of course does it himself. So it's that sense of the way that sometimes children do criticise their, their parents in a way, but then actually he is following in his footsteps for a certain period of time. Obviously he breaks off in that book earlier than his father did. But you suspect that there's an element that whereas his father has, you know, had to work for his sort of social advancement. Veep marries, is born into a family that is now a noport, and his position with the company, if not guaranteed, is made a lot easier by his, his father's presence and probably his clothing choices are also helped by his, his father's money to a certain extent. So, you know, I Think that's the difference. Potentially one of the key differences we see is between someone who's had to make their way and then someone who is benefiting from, from what their parents have achieved.
- [22:40]
F
But it's also true to say that Fi just has less of that real passion for dress. I mean, his father really exudes fascination with particular accessories. As you said, Maria, he's sporting like, you know, he says, oh, you know, it's super fine material from Valencia. I have in this headwear. And that's less evident. But you know what also strikes me? You've referred Maria to the image later on in Matthias's life where he shows himself having suffered a stroke. It does turn into that autobiography. It's also marked by gaps. And because it's one thing to do this kind of project of portrayals and display when you're young and fashionable and slim and. And quite another to, to carry on with it. And. And I think that's also why it was ultimately unique because facing up then to the, the process of aging, the process of becoming more frail in certain periods of your life was and remains something to face up to for men as much as women, I should say. So that makes it so special.
- [23:47]
D
Yeah. And as you mentioned earlier, very much a reflection of that, you know, self consciousness or consciousness of time and the passage of time and reflecting on that and capturing it to remember it. I mean, so much of this book is about clothing and the memories that the clothing holds.
- [24:06]
B
Dresses. Listeners stumped for a gift idea for a certain loved one because you feel like you've exhausted your typical gift list. How about this year you give them the most precious gift of all. Memories of your times together. This is where Skylight Frame comes in.
- [24:21]
D
Skylight Frame is a digital picture frame you can send photos to and they appear in seconds. You can preload a Skylight Frame with tons of your favorite pics, so when the recipient opens it, the frame is already full of special moments. And I have to say, my family is obsessed with our Skylight Frame. We watch it every day like TV because it's so fun to revisit these precious memories together. And the Skylight Frame is personal, it's meaningful, and it's so easy to use that even the least tech savvy person in your family will love it.
- [24:50]
B
And Cas, you know, I'm not tech savvy, so I really appreciated how Skylight Frame's quick one minute setup was super easy for me. You don't need an app or a subscription. And if you aren't happy with your frame, you can return it within four months for a full refund, no questions asked.
- [25:07]
D
And right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $20 off their 10 inch frames by going to myskylight.com dressed. Go to myskylight.com dressed for $20 off your 10 inch frame. That's M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I G-H-T.com dressed.
- [25:24]
E
Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body.
- [25:27]
D
Relax and let go of whatever you're carrying.
- [25:32]
B
Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts.
- [25:35]
E
In time for this class.
- [25:36]
B
I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts.
- [25:38]
F
Oh my gosh, they're so fast.
- [25:40]
D
And breathe.
- [25:41]
E
Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw.
- [25:44]
B
The discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry.
- [25:48]
F
Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order.
- [25:52]
E
1-800-Contacts.
- [25:58]
D
Within the larger context of German and even European fashion at this time, how typical are their fashion choices, would you say?
- [26:05]
E
I think their fashion choices are. They, they demonstrate elements that you would have found in southern Germany. They were, they're sort of quite typical. And certainly from an outside perspective, for instance, say at the court of Henry VIII, they in the 1520s and 30s, he has garments in the Almain or, or German styles. So there's certainly an appreciation of what that sort of very slashed ornament 8 type style means and where it's associated with. And we can see if we look at say, the differences between southern German towns and northern, we can see different approaches, different influences on their, on their dress styles. But one of the things that strikes me as very interesting is also how when both of them travel to Italy, they feel it's important to adopt the local style, as it were. In part that it means that, you know, you are going to be more socially accepted, that you are sort of meeting your hosts on an equal footing if you're dressed. Especially when Matthias goes to Venice, you know, he adopts that very distinctive black long sort of look that is, yes, very specific. And I think he envisages that that is going to help him be successful in business. And so rather than retain his own distinctive clothing, he's going to adopt the clothing of the place that he's gone to. And later on we also see an influence across Europe of certain aspects of Spanish style. So by the time we get to Vite Conrad, we're seeing another sort of wave of influence. So I think we can see the core garments are to be found pretty much everywhere in Northern and Western Europe. But the. The styles, the cut, the choice of colours, the materials will reflect sort of local and regional interests. And so it is possible to identify. So they are wonderful in that sense as well.
- [28:02]
D
And I'm just curious, how did fashion spread during this time was. Because obviously this is pre fashion magazine era, but how are people observing fashion so that they might translate it into their own wardrobe?
- [28:13]
F
So this is a period where we have, like Matteo, some. Some people who make manuscripts suddenly of what dresses is worn elsewhere in the world. So they exchanged in the. Before they bound together the sheets of these manuscripts. Manuscripts. We can see that he forms this network with people his own age who are placed, as I said, in different parts of Europe and they are all really, really keen to source fashions. So that's one way in which it spreads. Well, what else won't we say about it, Maria? How does it spread?
- [28:45]
E
Well, I think people traveling helps spread ideas. So I think when he goes to Italy, he's going to appreciate the styles that he sees there. What's then interesting is whether he choose to bring those back with him or not. But certainly I think you can find examples in sort of, say, Henry's court, where they're actively looking at the ambassadors and their wives to see what they're wearing and then, you know, deciding whether they wish to emulate them or not. So I think, you know, people traveling and looking at what other people are wearing is certainly important. Letter, I think, is also another way in which we see in the early modern period, people are writing about what they are buying, what they'd like other people to buy for them, what they've seen seen. So I think there are lots of ways in which they can disseminate information. And I suppose one other way is actually through the garments and the people who make them. So if tailors move from one place to another, they will take skills with them, and if they take garments with them, you know, people will. They can unpick them, they can look at the construction and the cut and then they can think, you know, do we want to emulate these or not? So, yes, I think there are a variety of ways. They might be slightly less speedy than the things that we're used to or the things that you would say later. But I think they're eminently effective in terms of disseminating ideas and allow people to be aware of what other groups are wearing, what other countries are wearing.
- [30:07]
F
That's right. And we should just add that it's A period also where the most advanced cities like Augsburg or Nuremberg, they actively try to recruit people who are advanced makers and can spread really good ways of making a barrett, for instance, or making a shoe. And also that these are imperial cities. That means Augsburg is regularly visited by the emperor and the emperor comes with his entourage from all over the. Over the world. But, you know, many parts of the world and there's this intense craft spectatorship because, of course, you know, you don't buy the entire garment, you buy every bit. You buy your cloth that you want to have dyed and you take it to the tailor. So everybody at that time is involved in this making process and therefore has that really good eye for what's changing and what might be possible.
- [31:01]
D
Thank you. You've provided a seamless transition to my next question, which is about production of clothing, because I love in the book that you write, I think it's Fayt usually designed all of his dress himself and even cut slashes in his clothes and his shoes. But, of course, these looks were not achieved alone. They come with the close involvement of people like tailors and shoemakers, which really were integral the. In helping people to express their creativity through clothing. I'd love if you can speak about the artists, tailors, textile manufacturers, who fashion Mateus and Feit's Artoria world and that of Augsburg society at large. How would they have acquired their clothing and who painted them in it?
- [31:39]
F
So perhaps I can speak about the person who painted him. For Mateus, for most of the time, it must have been a very close relationship because he even depicts Matthias naked ones from the front and from the back. And we know this was a man called Narciss Renner, who was a similar age and then very sadly died of the plague. But again, they were in the same youth culture, as it were, and he had a sensitivity for chronicling these changes. We should say also that Matthias then precisely notes down the time on each depiction when this was made, and also gives us about four to five lines on all of these outputs outfits, but very, very sadly doesn't tell us what tailors he uses. So FYT does that more. But Matteo is not. And, you know, we would love to know, but actually it is pretty impossible to find out anything about tailors in Augsburg just in the early 16th century, or the dyers that practice there in person, or the shoemakers, everyone, the barrett makers who were involved.
- [32:51]
E
And as Olinka mentioned, we're in those sort of four or five lines describing the clothes and the occasions when they were worn. Both of Them do include references to the fabrics on occasion, and that can offer some really interesting insights. And in particular, one of the things that I found especially interesting was the variety of half silks, for instance, that they have alongside the pure silk fabrics. So that doesn't mean that they didn't have any pure silk. They did, but it was used very strategically where you would get the best value for it in terms of its highest visibility. But they also wore a number of fabrics that were sort of either part silk, part wool or other combinations. And in one sense it isn't. Yes, they would have been cheaper, but they also local products and they were products that Fuggers dealt in. And so, you know, they are engaging with their own sort of local fabrics as well, which is, which is interesting in terms of what he chooses, chooses what he chooses for the different occasions. So, yes, it's, it's a huge shame that we don't have account books, for instance, to go alongside these, these images. Sadly, we don't have that information.
- [34:05]
D
I know. And there's been such a shift, I feel like, in the scholarship over, you know, probably the past couple decades that are really looking to, to learn more about those everyday people that were integral in constructing the lives and wardrobes of these kind of high, higher profile people. But it's such a fascinating topic and hopefully more research will come out about it into the future. And Alinka, I'm hoping too, you can just speak to Narzis Renner's wife, because isn't it thought that she actually might have done some of the portraiture in the books as well?
- [34:34]
F
Yeah, Magdalena Renner. So the assumption has been that she might have contributed to it. One has to say that the person who formulated that hypothesis did so partly because sometimes the quality is less good. But it was absolutely the case that in this time, husbands and wives frequently worked together in a household production, workshop production was just a seamless operation. So she might have done more. Maybe not on the occasion when Matteo's posed naked from the front and back, but otherwise. And she would have shared those skills. It's very, very possible. Yeah.
- [35:15]
D
I just love the fact that she was an artist and a working artist. So despite the personal and generational differences that can be observed when comparing both Mateo's and Feit's approach to dressing, there are many similarities when it comes to how they used and understood clothing as a means of asserting and even mobilizing their place in society. It's very much a symbiotic relationship. I'd love if you could just Kind of take us into their world a little bit. Where were they wearing these clothes and how did certain types of events and achievements dictate what they wore?
- [35:47]
F
So a really important facet of it is imperial politics. So, you know, we have their part. Germany is part of the Holy Roman Empire. The Emperor since 1519 is Charles V and his brother is Ferdinand of Austria. And the reason they matter so much to Matthias and Feyd Conrad is because they hope to be ennobled, which was not for Matthias, far fetched hope because he's so decisive as head accountant of the Fugger in making credit available to the emperor and his brother. And he achieves it. And our argument is that he does achieve this extraordinary, given that he's the son of a merchant, the ennoblement through his sartorial strategies. So I've reconstructed with Gianni Tirumani, or rather Ginny Tirumani, the director of the School of Historical Dress in London. And that's part of the first book of fashion at the end, reconstructed the dress, Matthias Schwartz's War in 1530. And there's a political summit where Charles V is present. And again we can just see that he really tries his best to impress the Emperor and also his brother. At another occasion, we had reconstructed the feather crown he was wearing at that occasion. So kind of wired iron onto which lots and lots of plumes of ostriches were attached, dyed in very vibrant colors not only, but also the heralds baldic colors of Austria, so red and white. And this would have given Mathias enormous visibility. And of course he even writes down for us, you know, I'm doing this to please Ferdinand of Austria. So that's a big sartorial game that results in success. But as we said, you know, the courtship is very important. And that doesn't go again isn't successful for either of them in something like dancing. So they're obviously also having to wear more morning dress for particular periods. And it's very interesting to see how morning dress was constructed. And there's a wonderful moment in the FAI Conrad book where he says, I can't bear wearing this black any longer in morning dress. I'm going to throw this all away and I'm going dancing. Weddings very important for the whole peer group. They would coordinate very carefully what was worn at those weddings. So I would single out those as the most important occasions.
- [38:20]
D
And of course, these books are not just about the evolution of fashion, but also about the evolution of both men's lives, starting with both Mateo's and Veit's births. Can you speak to clothing's role as a memory keeper and a signifier of a certain time and place? I actually found the section on their youths particularly charming. They both write about how they were troublemakers, how they had gotten, you know, all sorts of trouble in their youth, and. And I love how that's kind of captured alongside what they were wearing. So it really speaks to clothing as that memory capsule.
- [38:49]
F
That's right. So that's a very important aspect of it and how it shapes a sense of what it means to live and means to live through change. And at that time, it was believed that men entered full maturity at around the age of 28 to 29. And with matieres, we see a real flurry of Images just in 27. So just before, you know, you were meant to tone things down a bit and become more settled and serious. So that real love of exploring the possibilities of fashion, but also with that idea of inscribing himself in time through the transience of clothing and accessories. But even on one of his most vibrant images, the one we chose for the COVID of the first book of Fashion, where he's in that green outfit and flirting, he. He still says, you know, I'm wearing an old sword that was given to me by my brother, so always these citations as well, of things from the past. So for me, therefore, he's absolutely the Renaissance man. So with a respect for antiquity, with an interest in chronicling, but also full of excitement about innovation, novelty, and time.
- [40:10]
D
You both have been so generous with your time today. Before you go, I would love if you could just share, if you have any favorite fashion plates or anecdotes from the book that you'd like to share that you haven't spoken to already. I mean, as we discussed, I think there's something 100 plus, obviously, different plates to choose from, all which have accompanying text and stories. So do you have any that you would like to share with us?
- [40:32]
F
So there are 137 images, and one of the wonderful, exciting ones are two images where he's shown. Matthias Schwartz is shown on a sledge. So this, we must imagine, is the equivalent of the early modern man's motorbike. They were racing through the winter, and yet Matthias Schwartz shows himself without a formal coat. In one of them, he shows himself in a gown that's full of zigzaggy ribbons and patterns. And I think that shows just how this record makes us think totally new about Renaissance fashion. I mean, in portraits, men chose to represent themselves mostly in conventional ways. And Therefore, we do see a lot of black, for instance, but here, you know, we see combinations which we would never otherwise see and which inventories don't tell us about either, because they don't tell us sometimes about the colors, but also not about how the whole ensemble was put together and looked. And here we see him enjoying him himself in the city in that way.
- [41:38]
D
Maria, what about you?
- [41:40]
E
We didn't discuss this beforehand, so I had also put those down. However. However, I did have a few others as well. And so for me, in terms of thinking about the clothing specifically, I like the images where we have multiples clustered together, because if you just look at a standard portrait of an individual individual, and you often only usually have maybe one portrait of an individual in this period, you just see them in one set of clothes. But in particular for Matthias, there are these wonderful sets of images where he shows you all the different shirts he's wearing at that particular point. And so it highlights that there isn't just one style at any one point in time, but actually he could choose. And that might reflect where he was going, but it might also then reflect the cut of the doublet and everything else. So I think it just reinforces the idea that there isn't just one single line of the sort of fashion narrative, but that there are multiple styles of garment being worn at the same time by the same, you know, fashionable individual. So I really like those. But I think for me, I. I like the fact that. And this almost goes back to that previous question about. About memory, that they both start their books and they have a picture of them at the point when they start. And they're both sort of youngish men, but they both choose to look back to their early life. And I really rather like that work that, you know, Matesh starts with the picture of his pregnant mother and says, there I am, I'm bump. And in that early section, he also do that where, you know, these are books about men's clothes very specifically. But that's also where we get to see women. We see his mother, we see the maid, we see his sister, and we get those other glimpses, and it sort of actually is. Are much more valuable because of that, you know, female servants and again, sorts of individuals you wouldn't readily see in other sources. So I think that's the other aspect of this that I really like.
- [43:36]
C
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast. Smart move. Being financially savvy. Smart move. Another smart move. Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.
- [44:05]
G
Limu and Doug here we have the Limu emu in its natural habitat helping people customize their car insurance and save honey hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [44:23]
B
Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.
- [44:26]
G
Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Very unwritten by.
- [44:33]
D
Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates excludes Massachusetts. Well, thank you both so much for sharing. I mean, I can't say enough what an exceptional gift this was to all of us to have this reprinted and then with all of your additional commentary to put it into Christmas context for us and really speaks to the significance of that book. In closing, what is the significance of these books to that time but also today?
- [44:56]
F
Well, I mean, I do think they show how informal clothing looked in the Renaissance. They show how colorful it was. They show how much of a tula for expression it was, and they show how, therefore the entire sense of individuality also was reflected through an engagement with clothing. I mean, it is through clothing that Matthias Schwartz, as we said, reflects on time and what it means to be alive and what it means to be well and what it means to be successful, but also what it means to experience aging and frailty. So it's through the interactions also that you he experiences his body, that he reflects on weight and whether he thinks of himself as too fat or whether he thinks of his hopes to stay slim forever. So it's really that third dimension that we have, obviously the individual, the social institutions, but also the objects and fashion above all that, that shape people's sense of their selves, not just today, but so for so much longer. And the moment when this starts in full force is the Renaissance. And of course, we're still grappling with much of that today, usually women more than men when they think about their weight, for instance, and clothes no longer fit and they grapple with that. But the book, the first Book of Passion, shows that this is a long and deep history and one that very.
- [46:25]
D
Much resonates with us today, as you just mentioned, in more ways than one. Thank you both so much for being here. This was wonderful.
- [46:31]
F
Thank you very much. Cassidy.
- [46:33]
E
Yes, thank you very much indeed. Kusti. Thank you.
- [46:36]
B
Maria And Ulinka for joining us on dressed.
- [46:40]
D
April, I know this is probably incredibly hard to do, but what do you think your favorite illustration is from the text?
- [46:48]
B
Oh, gosh. I mean, this is practically impossible because there are so many of them that are just amazing. But I think that one of my favorites has to be one of Matos's fences dancing ensembles, which he wore back in June of 1518. He was apparently 21 years old at the time. And I think that this is a really good example of how completely wackadoodle this whole me parti color blocking situation could get. He notes in the text on the image that his doublet was made from a silk satin. It was imported from Bruges. And I just want to give you listeners a description of what is going on in this image. So he's, he's wearing a doublet and of course, up on his torso and the left half of the doublet is the solid lemon yellow color where the right side of the doublet is a gray and white striped. So it's kind of like split right down the center front in terms of the color blocking. But it's his lower half of the body where things get really, really wild. So his left leg, he's wearing knee breeches. And on his left leg, his breeches are that same lemon yellow color, but it has all these vertical slashes all down that one pant leg that reveal this bright blue textile underneath. So the breeches terminate just below the knee, as I've mentioned, and there's a big blue bow. So on the left side, we're in this yellow and blue situation. And he's also wearing yellow hose which comes cover that, that lower leg, the right side, however, his, his breeches are completely different. So it's the same white and gray silk striped silk that matches the right side of his doublet. But instead of the slashing like we see on the left side, the right side is festooned with these six blue horizontal ruffles that go all the way around the leg to the bottom of the knee breeches, which then terminate is in a yellow bow. And he's on that one leg, he's wearing gray and white striped H. So this whole thing is jaw dropping. It's more spectacular than you can probably even imagine when you, when you see it in person.
- [49:07]
D
So, so there's, I mean, dress listeners, so many wonderful images to choose from. This has been such a treat, April, especially because this text is so incredibly rare and the historic record, so unlike today, where there are billions, if not trillions of digital images that document our existence. Right? And this begs the question, just how will historians even begin to study us 500 years in the future? Will these digital records still even exist or will they have been replaced with something else? So many questions and I suppose there's hundreds of years to figure it out. I suppose we will not be there there.
- [49:43]
B
Yes. And listeners, why not get your hands on your very own copy of the first book of Fashion and check out some of these completely amazing, incredible, awe inspiring outfits that have been referenced in this episode. You or you try out one of the other wonderful books from today's authors, including Maria's Rich Apparel, Clothing and the Law of Henry VIII England and Dressing Up, Cultural Identity and Renaissance Europe. And all of these can be purchased through our bookshop.org account, which is of course bookshop.org shop dressed and we will also provide links to this in our show notes.
- [50:25]
D
Well, that does it for us today. Dress listeners, may you consider documenting your wardrobe for prosperity next time you get dressed. Dress listeners, you asked and we have answered. Answered. If you live in New York City or you are planning on being in New York City in early December, maybe you will consider joining us for one of our fashion History behind the Scenes day tours. So just send us an email@hellodresshistory.com for more information. Or you can always direct message us on Instagram at Dress Underscore Podcast.
- [50:57]
B
Instagram is also where you will find images and reels accompany each week's episode. If you would like to find the Instagram content specifically connected to this episode, check out the hashtag dressed318 that's dressed and the numbers 31 8. And remember, if you would like to you can listen to Dressed now ad free for just $3 a month. You can look for the link in our show notes or in the link tree on our Instagram and to do that you can just click on that to subscribe to our exclusive exclusive content which is the ad free version of the podcast. Also, if you have a moment and want to take the time to rate and review us on your podcast listening platform of choice, we always appreciate your support. More addressed coming your way on Thursday.
- [51:50]
G
The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time to online and more personal info in more places that could expose you more to identity theft. But Lifelock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our US based restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed your money back. Don't face drained accounts, fraudulent loans or financial losses alone. Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with LifeLock, save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com podcast turn apply hello listeners.
- [52:21]
H
This is Anne Bogle, author, blogger and creator of the podcast what Should I Read next? Since 2016, I've been helping readers bring more joy and delight into their reading lives. Every week I tack all things books and reading with a guest and guide them in discovering their next read. They share three books they love, one book they don't, and what they've been reading lately, and I recommend three titles they may enjoy reading next. Guests have said our conversations are like things therapy, troubleshooting issues that have plagued their reading lives for years and possibly the rest of their lives as well. And of course, recommending books that meet the moment. Whether they are looking for deep introspection to spur or encourage a life change or a frothy page turner to help them escape the stresses of work, school, everything, you'll learn something about yourself as a reader and you'll definitely walk away confident to choose your next read, with a whole list of new books and authors to try. So join us each day Tuesday for what Should I Read Next? Subscribe now wherever you're listening to this podcast and visit our website what Should I read next podcast.com to find out more.