7-Month-Old Vanishes in California: Is This Mother Telling the Truth? | Emmanuel Haro

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield

Episode: 7-Month-Old Vanishes in California: Is This Mother Telling the Truth? | Emmanuel Haro
Date: August 18, 2025
Host: Ashleigh Banfield
Expert Guest: Scott Rouse, Body Language and Behavioral Analysis Expert

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Overview

Ashleigh Banfield delves into the mysterious disappearance of 7-month-old Emmanuel Haro from San Bernardino County, California. After Emmanuel’s mother, Rebecca Haro, reported being attacked and losing consciousness outside a sporting goods store—only to awaken to her baby’s absence—the story drew widespread attention and skepticism. In this episode, Ashleigh enlists renowned behavioral analyst Scott Rouse to break down the body language and micro-expressions of the parents during media interviews, questioning whether Rebecca is a victim or may be hiding the truth.

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Case Background and Key Timeline

The Disappearance

• Incident: Rebecca Haro claims that while changing Emmanuel’s diaper in her car, she was approached from behind, heard someone say “hola,” and was rendered unconscious (00:49).
• Discovery: Rebecca awoke on the ground; Emmanuel was gone. She searched, ran into the store shouting his name, and called 911 (01:36).
• Police Response: San Bernardino deputies canvassed the area with K-9s, but found no evidence or surveillance footage from the parking lot—an unusual gap for a large store (03:06).

Early Red Flags

• No suspect description (Rebecca claims she never saw the attacker or escape vehicle).
• No Amber Alert issued, as there was no information about a vehicle or license plate (04:00).
• The kidnapping story quickly gained national attention, but by the second day, investigators' suspicions grew, leading to a deeper probe into the family.

Shifting Investigation

• Cadaver dogs were deployed at the Haro family home; parts of the property were reportedly searched and dug up (09:09).
• Law enforcement cited inconsistencies in Rebecca’s statements, and after confronting her, she ended the interview (10:45).
• Rebecca was asked to take a polygraph, but her husband Jake (Emmanuel’s father) refused until they had a lawyer (11:59).
• Background details revealed Jake’s previous conviction for child cruelty and ongoing probation issues (13:07).
• Social service involvement: the couple’s 2-year-old was reportedly removed from their home.

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Key Insights and Discussion Points

1. Media and Public Skepticism

Ashleigh highlights the “Susan Smith vibes”—referring to public suspicion in high-profile, possibly faked abduction cases (00:28, 38:44).

“If this really happened to her, it would be horrendous … If she is lying, it is the worst thing in the world.” — Ashleigh Banfield (00:32)

2. Nonverbal Analysis: Interview with Scott Rouse

“Spidey Senses” and Intuitive Discomfort

• Most people—especially women—immediately sense something is "off" in the interviews, even if they can’t pinpoint why (16:27, 17:15).
• Rouse explains that this intuition is backed by cognitive science: women’s brains process more details subconsciously, contributing to stronger gut feelings.

Behavioral Red Flags in Rebecca Haro’s Interview

a. Past Tense References
Rebecca describes Emmanuel in the past tense ("he was a happy boy, he smiled") (19:42, 19:58).

• Potentially a red flag in missing persons language; people usually talk in present tense about those who are missing.
• Rouse concedes sometimes this could be innocent, but context matters:

  “That's one of the first red flags you look for … Are you hearing them say they were a good person … all past tense?” — Scott Rouse (20:08)

b. Disconnect Between Words and Facial Expressions

• Lack of the “glabella” (the grief muscle) activation between the eyebrows—should form an upside-down ‘U’ during real grief, but is missing in Rebecca’s interviews (23:10, 24:18).
• Eyes: She squints using the wrong muscles—suggesting she’s mimicking sadness, not genuinely feeling it. No natural eye muscle engagement, and the whites (sclera) are clear instead of bloodshot, which typically happens after crying (24:31, 26:28).

c. No Physical Signs of Crying

• No tears, runny nose, redness, or nasal wiping observed—a sharp contrast with genuine distress (28:16).

d. Micro-Expressions and Body Language

• Rouse observes brief flashes of fear, but not the sustained panic expected in a mother who’s suddenly lost her child. Her shoulder posture isn’t protective/fearful but instead lifted and forward in an unnatural way for true fear (30:48–32:21).
• Eyebrows are not engaged, forming neither an upside-down U nor any indication of distress—a marker missing both from her and Jake (32:49).

e. Choking/Breathing Patterns

• In authentic emotion, breathing often includes laryngeal spasms or stuttering speech. Rebecca’s “big, deep breaths” do not match the spasms commonly observed in genuine weeping (34:15).

Jake Haro’s Interview Signals

• Similarly, Jake’s expressions do not show grief or real sadness; his demeanor appears “totally fake.” His “anger” flashes briefly (about 1/8th of a second) rather than being a sustained emotional response—suggesting suppressed, not genuine, anger (36:10–37:31):

“He’s got nothing in his brow … His breathing is the worst fake breathing I may have ever seen in my life … This is totally fake, this guy? Yeah. No grief here whatsoever. Or sadness.” — Scott Rouse (36:29)

Additional Analytical Notes

• Mismatch between words and emotions likely contributed to community and law enforcement skepticism.
• Rouse speculates Rebecca might fear Jake, noting her body language when he’s present might reveal further interpersonal dynamics indicative of domestic abuse or intimidation (41:27, 42:06).

Notable Quote

“You can’t quite put your finger on it … What Scott Rouse does is he puts his finger on every single one of the flags when we’re saying something without actually saying something.” — Ashleigh Banfield (42:25)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Topic/Segment | Timestamp (MM:SS) | |-------------------------------------------|-----------------------| | Ashleigh’s Opening and Case Summary | 00:00–05:45 | | Missing Evidence and Amber Alert Issues | 03:06–05:00 | | TV Interviews: Rebecca and Jake | 06:27–08:45 | | The Investigation Turns | 09:05–13:15 | | Community and Social Services Response | 12:26–13:15 | | Interview with Scott Rouse Begins | 16:03 | | Women’s Intuition, Body Language Science | 16:27–17:52 | | Language and Past Tense Analysis | 19:44–21:01 | | Emotional Expression Breakdown | 22:46–34:15 | | Dad’s Micro-Expressions and Anger | 36:10–37:31 | | Domestic Violence and Family Dynamics | 41:27–42:06 | | Conclusion and Next Steps | 42:23–43:04 |

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Memorable Moments and Quotes

On the Case’s Disturbing Duality

“If this really happened to her, it would be horrendous … If she is lying, it is the worst thing in the world.”
— Ashleigh Banfield (00:32)

On Nonverbal Red Flags

“That's one of the first red flags you look for—how they talk about the person that's missing … all past tense … and they don't realize they're doing it.”
— Scott Rouse (20:08)

On Rebecca’s Demeanor

“We’re not seeing anything in her that shows she’s sad or grieving … those muscles should be pulled in or pulled in and upward. But nothing.”
— Scott Rouse (33:04)

On Both Parents

"He's got nothing in his brow ... the worst fake breathing I may have ever seen ... No grief here whatsoever."
— Scott Rouse (36:29)

On Intuitive Reactions

“You can’t quite put your finger on it … What Scott Rouse does is he puts his finger on every single one of the flags when we’re saying something without actually saying something.”
— Ashleigh Banfield (42:25)

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Conclusion

Ashleigh closes by highlighting the importance of expertise in translating intuition into observable red flags, reiterating the need for evidence and legal caution while following this rapidly developing, emotionally charged case. She teases ongoing coverage as updates emerge and thanks her true crime community for engaging with these complex, haunting cases.

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Note: This summary omits all non-content sections, advertisements, and extraneous outro material.

Transcript

[A]

Hey everyone, I'm Ashley Banfield and this is drop dead serious. I have a story to bring you out of California and I am telling you I have been in this business long enough to see a few things and I think I'm seeing a few things in this story out of California. That said, I can't be certain if my spidey senses are right. But nutshell woman says she's head over the head and in a parking lot at a store. And when she comes to, her seven month old baby is gone. She gives interviews and so does her husband and the Internet kind of lit up. Shall I say it's giving a bit of Susan Smith vibes. Although I will say this, if this really happened to her, it would be horrendous that she were going through, you know, people who don't believe her services that are cut back if, if anybody thinks she's lying and she isn't. It would be the worst thing in world if she is lying. It is the worst thing in the world. But it's a big, big story with an interview that you can dissect. And so in this episode I do exactly that. I call the expert, the guy who's worked with all the government agencies, including the FBI and the US Military to talk about the non verbal cues, the stuff that you aren't saying but you're saying with your face. And so Scott Rouse, the expert, is going to join me in just a moment to go through all of these issues and find out if what we're seeing is the real deal or if it is a big fat lie. I want to start right from the very beginning. A seven month old baby has vanished in San Bernardino County, California. His name is Emmanuel Harrow. His mother says that she was attacked by outside of a sporting goods store, rendered unconscious. And when she came to her baby Emmanuel, that little boy was gone. Kidnapped. And as the hours ticked by, the search for baby Emanuel only grew more desperate. But after several days, something seemed to change. And investigators are now saying that this case may not be as straightforward as it first appeared to be. So it all started on Thursday night, August 14th. Just before 8pm it was a busy stretch of Yucaipa Boulevard. Rebecca Harrow pulled up to a big five sporting goods store. She needed to buy her stepson a mouth guard. And that's because she had just left his football game because he didn't have one and she needed to get him one. So she left the football field to come to the sports store to get a mouth guard. Everybody else in the family Stayed at the football field, though the boy's dad and their other kids, they all stayed at the football, football game. But Rebecca took their seven month old son Emmanuel with her, she said. Before going inside though the big five sporting goods store, Rebecca said that she noticed Emmanuel needed a diaper change. He's seven months. So she said she planned to do it right then and there in the car. She laid him down in the car to do the diaper change. And that's when Rebecca says a stranger approached her car and said one word, hola. And then Rebecca says, quote, everything went white. Rebecca came to, she said she was on the ground, Emmanuel was gone. That's her report. When she came to, she was on the ground and Emmanuel was gone. Then she said she searched frantically for her little boy. She says she looked around the car, she darted into the store, she said. She also said she shouted his name. Well, he's seven months old, so I can't imagine that, you know, shouting a seven months old name is going to produce a result, right? Like seven months old, you're not even walking. But she said she shouted his name and nothing. And finally she said she called 911. San Bernardino county deputies swarmed that parking lot right away. They brought in K9 sniffing dogs. Officers canvassed the nearby neighborhoods. The deputies worked into the night. They looked for any signs of Emanuel, but they found nothing. And then came three details that made an already troubling case even more difficult. First off, weird, this one, I don't get it. No surveillance cameras that cover the big five parking lot. Just think about this for a second. Where is it that you can go in your life where you don't assume that there's some kind of surveillance camera somewhere? Security cameras literally everywhere, Every parking lot. Maybe the little mom and pop stores, maybe not. But even them, I suggest, I assume that they've got some kind of surveillance security camera out front of their door or inside their store. But the big five store has no security cameras looking at the parking lot. Nothing to show who was there or what really happened. Secondly, Rebecca admitted that she could not describe her attacker. Had no description of height or build or clothing, any. Nothing. She said it happened from behind. She just heard the word hola, and then that was the last thing she remembers. Third, she says she never even saw how the person got away. So no car, no direction, no trace, no license plate, like nothing. So police literally don't have a suspect description. They don't have a vehicle, they don't have a license plate to trace that they literally could not put out an Amber Alert because you need a lot of those things legally to get an amber alert out. 7 month old baby boy gone without a trace instead of an Amber Alert, which again requires a car and a license plate. Otherwise, guys, trust me, you may be angry at that, but there would be hundreds of Amber Alerts going out every single day. The minute somebody looks around and can't find their kid in a store, there has to be a license plate, there has to be a car because the Amber Alert specifically goes to that. Hey, drivers, if you're out there, look for this car. So no Amber Alert. Instead, the San Bernardino Sheriff's Department posted an alert to the public about a kidnapped seven month old baby boy. So they did do something. They put out that alert. Public alert. Seven month old gone. The next day. That's Friday, August 15th. Rebecca goes on local TV. She's got bruises on her face and she is begging and pleading for the return of her son. Take a look. This is ABC7.

[B]

I fell on the floor and I, and I said as I got up, I couldn't find my son.

[C]

A seven month old baby boy was reportedly kidnapped right out of this Big five parking lot. This is seven month old Emmanuel Haro, one of five children in this family from Cabazon, reportedly kidnapped last night in Yucaipa. Now his mom told me that they were here last night at a nearby football stadium in Yucaipa and with the other kids playing youth football. And she had to run down here to Big five to buy some equipment for her stepson, specifically a mouth guard. When she got here to the parking lot, she says that's when she noticed her 7 months old's diaper needed to be changed. So she says she got out of her truck, went around to the back and laid him down on the seat to change his diaper when she was attacked from behind.

[B]

I got him out of the car seat and I laid him down and so I could get his diapers ready and somebody said hola. And that's all I, I remember. And I saw white in the hearing sound. I fell on the floor and I said as I got up, I couldn't find my son. I checked all around my truck and I ran into Big five and I asked the lady if she saw a baby or someone with a baby. She said no, it was a happy boy. He smiled. I was gonna get the diaper and somebody said hola. And I didn't see nothing since I walk up right here on the floor and I didn't see Man, y', all.

[A]

Rebecca says she woke up with a black eye and her baby gone. She searched around the car, ran into the store, then called 91 1.

[B]

Everybody came, the dogs. Hello? He's gone. I can't find him. If you know anything, please come and bring my son back. Please, I'm begging you. If you know anything, please come forward.

[D]

Word.

[B]

Or take him to the cops or any. Or please let us know anything. Please.

[A]

Her husband, Jake Harrow also spoke to the cameras and he said that the family doesn't have any enemies, that he couldn't think of anyone who would want to hurt them again. This is ABC7.

[D]

Whoever took our son, please give him back. Whoever took my son, please return him. We just want him back. We don't. We won't do anything to you would just give us our son. Just keep him safe. Don't hurt him. Make sure you feed them, change them.

[A]

Later that same day, San Bernardino Sheriff's Department posted an update on social media. And they confirmed that their specialized investigations division had taken over this case and that the investigators were methodical. They retraced Rebecca's steps that night from the football practice, the drive to the Big Five, the diaper change in the car. Canines swept the area again. Officers checked any security cameras that they could. And again, there were none in the parking lot of the. Of the big five. But plenty of security cameras in the roadways leading up to that area. Also surrounding businesses might have had some kind of a view. And I always go back to vehicles. So many people have security cameras on their vehicles now, especially Teslas. Teslas literally are a rolling 360 security camera. So there might be maybe someone out there with a Tesla who's got some video or just someone who was in that parking lot who was rolling tape. So we'll wait on that. But at this point, we're not hearing about what that kind of part of the investigation has yielded. And still at this point, no sign of Emanuel, they say. And by now the story was everywhere. A kidnapped baby, a mother left battered in a parking lot. I mean, this story got a lot of attention and got it fast. There were headlines, social media, you name it, it was everywhere. And then as the weekend arrived, suddenly the tone seemed to shift. By Saturday, that's August 16th, investigators were searching the harrow's home. And wouldn't you know it, they brought with them cadaver dogs. That's not a good sign, folks. Cadaver dogs in the home. That means only one thing. They're thinking maybe that boy died in the home. Maybe there was not this abduction out, you know, in the parking lot of a Big five. Maybe something nefarious happened. And one reporter from KTLA said that the investigators were digging up parts of the property. People who live in the community said on social media that there were traces of blood found during this search. But I caution you, that has not been confirmed. That hasn't been authenticated. So table that one for now. The same day, though, San Bernardino Sheriff's Department made a stunning announcement that they could not rule out foul play. And they said that they'd found inconsistencies in Rebecca's statements to the police. The police said that when Rebecca was confronted about those inconsistent statements, she ended the interview. They didn't say what the inconsistencies were, and they have not accused her of anything. And Rebecca has not been charged with a crime. But a little background here. It's a blended family from past relationships. And here's something that's also very troubling. Rebecca's mother, Mary Boychousen, she's Emmanuel's grandmother, she told KTLA that as of Sunday, August 17, the couple's two year old child has been taken out of their home. In addition to that, the Uvalde foundation for Kids, which is a non profit group that had been helping in the search for Emanuel, they decided to pull back and suspend their efforts. The founder of that nonprofit, Daniel Chapin, said this, and I quote, we cannot in good conscience utilize our team and resources when so much is missing in this case. Of particular concern to us lies within the inconsistencies in the details and the sudden decision by the mother to end communication with law enforcement and our team. Our team. Something is not right in this whole picture. But Mary Busch housing again, Emanuel's grandma told KTLA that the couple loves their son and wouldn't do anything to hurt him. Manuel's grandmother also claimed that authorities asked Rebecca to take a polygraph test, but that Rebecca's husband, Jake, who's Emmanuel's dad, refused to let her do so until they hired a lawyer. Now, you might say, well, that just is screams guilt, right? If you're, if you're not doing everything to, to find your boy and help the police find your boy, you would, you would say, you would never say no to anything that the police ask you to do. And I caution you right away, not always. Your right to an attorney is massive. It's, it's why I partner with Morgan. And Morgan, it's important your words can be used against you. Innocent people can be thrown in jail, convicted. We've even executed innocent people in this country. So never decry someone's right to invoke their Fifth amendment privilege and get a lawyer, because sometimes when they're being interrogated, it starts to get really scary. And you do start hearing police use a tone that they believe it's you. And if you are innocent, you should stop the conversation. You should have a lawyer. You probably shouldn't start the conversation without a lawyer. But again, when we lose our children, we don't think of any of that. So, like I say, a big caution not to jump to conclusions, that Rebecca decided to invoke her right to a lawyer or that her husband suggested it, or that they decided not to do a polygraph test. That can cut both ways, honestly. But there is this disturbing twist. Court records show that Jake the dad has a felony conviction from June of 2023 for child cruelty. Yeah, this one apparently stemmed from an arrest in 2018. It's reported he was sentenced to 180 days in jail, plus 48 months of probation. And in another twist, Jake is scheduled to appear in court in early September for an alleged violation of that probation. So as the search for baby Emanuel drags on and deputies fan out across Yucaipa pouring resources into this search, the investigators have made one thing very clear. Not every detail of Rebecca's account is lining up. And that leaves a difficult question hanging over this case. Is she a grieving mother who needs all of the help she can get from the community, from the police, from the true crime community, from us? Or is she a criminal who's faking an abduction with something far more sinister behind Emanuel's disappearance? To help get some sort of insight into that question, I called Scott Rouse. Scott is one of the top behavior analysts and body language experts in the world. He holds multiple certificates in advanced interrogation training, and he's been trained alongside the FBI, Secret Service, US Military intelligence, and the Department of Defense. He's also one of the hosts of the extremely popular YouTube channel the behavior Panel. Here's our conversation. Scott, it's great to have you. Thank you so much. You're the first person I thought of.

[E]

When I watched the video of Rebecca Harrow.

[A]

There were some alarm bells that went.

[E]

Off for me, and it turns out I'm not alone. The comments were filled about 90% with people who just don't believe her. And if. If it's true, it's terrifying that this.

[A]

Woman would be double victimized. But I wanted to get your generalized.

[E]

Thoughts right off the bat.

[F]

Yeah, the reason everyone's. When there's something wrong, when something isn't right, the first people that see what that is, it's women. They'll see it every time. They'll say, something's not right here. Even though the men will be going, my gut feeling says this, women will spot that and say, something's not right here. So when, when you have a situation like this and most everybody goes, what's not right here? If you'll listen to the, to the, in this case, the woman talking, then listen to the man talking, you'll see something's not right there. Between those two and the facial expression she has on her face are the ones she has added to what's supposed to be grief and sorrow. We're going to see, which we'll talk about a couple minutes. We're going to see something that doesn't belong there and then we'll see on him something that doesn't belong there as well.

[A]

So it's fascinating.

[E]

We get a spidey sense and I like to think of it as it's our innate collection of the expertise that you've drilled down on in depth and you can actually scientifically point to the things that somewhere in the back of our minds we're noticing and we just don't know why.

[F]

Yeah. And that's because your brain, the woman's brain, captures information a lot different than the man's brain, a lot differently. The man's brain, there's. There's a couple of part two or three parts of the brain which we'll go over really quickly. You've got the fusiform gyrus, which is right in here. It's about a quarter inch in. And then you have the mid temporal gyrus, which is even lower than that.

[A]

And you're sort of pointing to your.

[E]

Mandibular a little bit towards the top and the, and the lower. For the podcasters who aren't watching. Okay.

[F]

Oh, okay, sorry. And then, so what you're dealing with here is the fusiform gyrus that grabs all. When you're, when you see something, it grabs all the little moves. And someone's body language could be their shoulder, it could be their eyes, it could be anything moving. All the tiny little things that move even in such. In situations that you're in. Then you have the mid temporal gyrus which grabs all the big movements, all, you know, somebody moving around their hands move real big and all that. And it throws it back to this thing in the back of your brain called the locus coeruleus back there near the brain stem and it all that information goes in and your locus aurelius sorts it out and says okay and tells you here's what's going on. Now that's why men get a gut feeling and that's why we think we know everything because we get all that information really quickly and then we go through and go here's what I think. Whereas women take in a lot more information not only with the fused form gyres, but with the mid temporal gyres. So they grab big groups of information to that goes into their brain. Then when it goes back to the locus release it takes a little bit longer because it sifts through it more in a more in depth fashion than the man's brain does than men's brain does. So that's what women's intuition is in my opinion because you all see more than we see and you'll see all these little things like for example with this woman, something unfeeled, right? Because you can see what it is. You don't know what it is yet. Brain hadn't figured it out yet, but something's not right there. That's why it's taking the police a little bit longer because it's mostly men and they see that and go, ah, you know, we'll see what happens. But from the get go there'll be women that go, something's not right here.

[A]

And I'm going to go over a.

[E]

Huge checklist with you of all of these specific things that we feel and we just don't know what it is we're feeling. And you, you're going to actually put names and words to it, which I love. But before we do that, I did notice in the comment section something that I saw right away and I see.

[A]

It in a lot of different ways.

[E]

True crime stories that I cover. And that is past tense. I noticed she referred to her baby is, he was a good boy, he was smiling. She had a past tense right away.

[B]

Who's happy boy, he smiled.

[E]

Is that, could that be just an accidental slip up? That could be legitimate or is it really a huge red flag?

[F]

That's something you count on listening for that because you would say he's a, he's a sweet little kid, he does this, he loves doing that. So now that, that's one of the first red flags you look for is how they talk about the person that's missing. Are you hearing them say they were a good person and they always like to do this and And I remember, but, you know, it's all past tense, and they don't realize they're doing it.

[A]

In this case, I'm wondering if it's possible. And always trying to give the benefit.

[E]

Of the doubt, but I'm wondering if it's possible that she was referring to. Referring to the moment, meaning he was smiling, he was a good boy.

[A]

Meaning things were going well while I.

[E]

Was trying to change the diaper in the back of the car, and then suddenly everything went sideways. Is it possible she could have been making a past tense reference to that moment, meaning at the moment, he was being good? So I don't know how everything. You know, how we drew attention to someone else.

[F]

Yeah, that. Usually you don't think in specifics like that about how the child was at the moment, what was going on. When something like that happens, you immediately go from, I was. Here's what was happening. The next thing I know, I'm on the ground and the child's gone.

[B]

And as soon as I got up, I couldn't find my son. I checked all around my truck, and I ran into Big Five. And I asked the lady if she saw a baby or someone with the baby. She said, no.

[F]

When this happens and it's happened, I'm sure from the beginning of time, if somebody takes your child and you. And you, even though you've been knocked out and you wake up and you see it, the first thing you do is start screaming, somebody's got my baby. Happens every time that it happens. For real, where's my child? You don't run in and say, has anybody seen this or that? No, you start screaming because you've been in the hurt situation. Hit her, you know, so there's no question as to what's happened. And you wouldn't ask, has anyone seen someone with a baby? You would have said, oh, my God, somebody's taken.

[E]

Could it be. Again, I'll do benefit of the doubt here. Could it be that is what she did? But in her recollection, as she's talking to a reporter, quarter. She's recollecting it as. So I asked everybody if they'd seen somebody with a baby when in fact, what was really happening was she was screaming, help, Help.

[A]

You know, where's my baby?

[E]

Is it possible just. She was. She was not telling us the perfect recollection of what really happened in a moment of hell.

[F]

Yeah, of course. Because she's not gonna remember specifically what happened during all that. Because of her adrenaline. She got a big shot of adrenaline. Adrenaline during that if that indeed happened. So there'll be a lot of things she doesn't remember. There will specific remember, but not like that. Not in. Not in that fashion.

[E]

All right, Scott, let's drill down on the very specific. Like, tiny things that we don't understand are going on in the face, but you see it like a. A beacon, and it's something called the glabella. You've. You note that there's nothing in the glabella, and it's a group of muscles that should be engaged when grieving or concerned. Can you explain that?

[F]

Yeah, when we. When we feel grief, when we feel concerned. Anything that you have to think about for a couple minutes, you'll see these little muscles right here group together and pull together.

[E]

And you're pointing, for the podcasters, you're pointing in between your eyebrows, up above.

[F]

On your forehead, right about half an inch above, right in that little group of muscles there. That's what forms what we call the glabella. And when those come together, we're going to see two or three things happen. It's going to be concern. It could be sadness, or it could be grief. Now, if you're going to see grief, it's going to be the upside down horseshoe that you see right. Right in the forehead there, because the eyebrows push in, and that's when you see those wrinkles. And then the forehead comes down, and that's what makes the U, because it pushes those muscles together, and they can't come together like that because you've got two muscles on the outside and a muscle on the top, and that's what makes the U. So if you see someone who's supposed to be grieving or is sad or is even worried, you'll see those eyebrows go up and in if they're worried. So which is what we should be seeing, and we're not seeing that at all. Nothing on her, on her forehead or in her. Her brow says grief or sadness.

[E]

Interesting. Okay, the next thing is. It's her eyes. Specifics about her eye muscles. And you're going to have to work me through this. This pronunciation. Is it the orbicularis oculi muscles?

[F]

Yeah, you nailed it. Orbicularis oculi.

[E]

Okay, so this says that the muscles surrounding the eyes should be helping to form a true squint. But what are you seeing when you watch her video?

[F]

Well, when she is squinting like she is in this one, she's squinting a little bit. You. The. These muscles here should be pushing up.

[E]

And that's underneath your eyes. You're pointing to the muscles underneath. Directly underneath your eyes, right just above your chi.

[F]

You know, right there. There at the edge of your cheekbone and up. Okay, a little bit further than that. But they should. So they should be. Your brain should be doing that, not you. So when she tries to squint, she's squinting mostly with her eyes, not using much of the. The obicularis oculi. There's those muscles that surround the eyes so that she thinks that's what sadness looks like, and she thinks that's what grief looks like. Everybody does, because that's what you see. But when you get down to the specifics of it, it's the muscles that contract that you don't contract, but your brain makes contract. And there's a huge difference in that. Because if I was the squint at you like this, you'd see my cheeks come up and part of my mouth muscles come up like that. But when she's doing it, we don't see that because she's. She's squinting like this. It should be just the eyes squinting. None of this here. So that's the difference in.

[E]

Huh.

[A]

So let me ask you this. When actors are really, really good at.

[E]

Grief, is it because they've transported themselves so deeply into a character, they are literally feeling those feelings, and it's coming out in their facial muscles.

[F]

That's what it looks like to me. Billy Bob Thornton's got that down. And as corny as it sounds, so does Brad Pitt. Those are the two that do it the best.

[A]

And Meryl Streep.

[E]

Meryl Streep seems to just be so. I don't know, immersed that it's impossible to tell she's acting.

[F]

She doesn't count. She doesn't count because she's from another planet. So I don't know what's going on with her, but it always looks real on her.

[E]

Okay. The next thing is. And I would not have thought to look at this, but it makes perfect sense. It's her sclera. Her sclera are white.

[F]

And.

[E]

And the sclera, when crying should be bloodshot. Is that immediately or is it because. I always think of it being afterwards.

[A]

I've been crying and now my eyes.

[E]

Are red, but they go red right away.

[F]

Yeah. Obviously it takes a couple minutes, but for as long as she's been there doing this, having this conversation, as. For long as this child's been missing, they should be red. There's a. There's a lot that should be going on with that. Plus the fact we're not. Again, you can see up closer even here that we're not seeing the squinting happen happening the way it should. We're just seeing her do it with her, with her muscles here. If her brain did it, we would see less engagement of the oba orbicularis oculi. It would be there, but it would be in a different fashion. For example, when someone does a real smile and they squint it, the sides of the eye of the eyelids come in at an angle like that. They come in like this.

[A]

And in this case, and you're making like a like.

[E]

It's hard for the people listening to like describe it for those who aren't seeing you.

[F]

Okay. On the sides of your eyes and on the sides of the eyelids, it should come in at an angle angle. They should squish almost like you're making a little squish thing with your fingertips from. And, and you put your fingertips together at the top knuckle of your, of your index finger and the top knuckle of your thumb. And when you squeeze those together and point toward the, toward the ends of the, of your finger and thumb, that's what it should look like. Whereas if you're faking it, then it just goes flat. It comes from the top to the bottom like you're making a pancake or something. So that's pretty much what we're seeing here because she thinks that's what sadness looks like. She thinks that's part of it. And back to the sclera. What should be happening there is. It should be read not only on the outside, but almost to the, to the, around the, the iris there. So we're not seeing anything there. It's not red. There's nothing happening there that should be happening with the sclera.

[E]

Something else that's, that's really obvious, but maybe we just don't think of it when we think of people crying. Is the nose. In her case, you point out that her nose is dry. There's no sniffing, there's no wiping.

[A]

Is that always the case that when.

[E]

You start to cry or when you're upset, your nose will be wet and you will start to have a runny nose?

[F]

Well, a lot of times what happens is the, the tears will drain through these little holes in the, in the, in the front of your eye at the bottom of your eyelids, and it will sometimes will drain down, down into your sinuses. And that's what it'll be sometimes, but quite often. And we're not seeing any tears on her either. By the way we don't see in anything that shows that she's been crying. So usually with the crying comes and stopped up nose, you know, or the, the runny nose, we don't see that. She never wipes it. She never wipes her eyes. She never sniffs in deep. Nothing like that at all. Not even a little bit.

[E]

Okay. The other thing you point out is something called the grief muscle, which I think is a fascinating term, but it's basically muscles that you mentioned before should form an upside down horseshoe. What's the muscle called and why does it form an upside down horseshoe when you're upset or when you're grieving?

[F]

Well, it happens in the brow. And what happens is you get the, the muscles in your, in your brow, your eyebrows pushing inward and upward. And then this part, I'll try to do it. And then this part, the top of your, your forehead, your brow starts pushing downward. And that's pretty much. That's close to it because it's really hard to fake. But I've been practicing for years now.

[E]

But he's showing me, for those who are just listening, he's showing me like a really th. Brow, but with grief and the, the pushing of the upper brow to the lower brow and then the inner pushing from the eyebrows which form that upside down. You. It makes perfect sense. Does that happen with everybody who's grieving, though?

[F]

Quite often it's hard not to if you really are, because you're, you're trying to hold your eyes open, but you're, you're, you're grieving and this pushes down. I guess it's the shadow in here from the light that's making that look so big and huge. Because it's really tough to do. It's really hard to do. So that's why it's so hard to fake.

[E]

Okay. There's something else that is interesting, and I notice it as a broadcaster. Whenever I'm panicked or nervous or the deadline is coming too quickly and I.

[A]

Don'T have my material ready to go.

[E]

My shoulders come up high on my. You know, I start to, I start to get nervous and you're noticing something with her shoulders. What is it? Yeah, I think you've, you've said that in fear. Your shoulders will be a telltale. What is it?

[F]

Yeah, well, you. Because you'll do this, your arms will come forward and down just a little, a little bit because you're trying to protect your heart and those, those, you know, from the psych. From your. You're not psychologically thinking about doing that. But as an animal, you'll do that. You'll start trying to protect everything because you're afraid. She. This is the. The expression. There is fear. We're seeing fear on her face. That's. Which is. And it's. It doesn't last that long. It's called a micro expression. But she's afraid of something, and she's not afraid that the child is gone or hurt or something.

[A]

How do you know?

[E]

How do you know her fear isn't that someone has your baby?

[F]

Because of the fear that we're seeing doesn't last long enough for that. You know, she was afraid of the baby being missed, and we've seen that the whole time. She would have said something about it. She's accepted the fact that the baby isn't with us anymore because of the way she's talking about it, the way she's using. Talking about it in the past tense. And the fear we're seeing here doesn't last, but I think this was maybe a half a second or a second. But you have to look really, really close because it's those wide eyes like that. And your mouth is open a little bit. Her mouth is. She's got that underbite or an overbite. So it's a tough call when you say, oh, well, she could be, you know, two, three things going on there. But that would be my bet, because her mouth is open like that. Her eyes are a little wider than they should be. Sclera, white as the driven snow. Nothing going on in the nose. And her head's back a little bit. She's afraid of. I'm not. I don't. I can't say specifically.

[A]

And so you're.

[E]

And with her shoulders, you're seeing her shoulders up high, sort of around her ears as opposed to down low and forward. You said protecting your heart out of fear.

[F]

Yes, they're. Yeah, they're. They're pushed up a little bit. They're. They're pushed up this way where they should be pushed. They should be pushed. They're pushed forward a little bit. They should be pushed forward more and lower because she should be, you know, in fear, you sort of duck down and get back. You don't come up like this. So in other words, looks like she's. She's coming up, coming forward with it. It's. It's a hard. It's hard to explain.

[A]

Yeah.

[F]

Looking at it like that. But that's what's happening. That's.

[A]

But you're noticing the shoulders right away.

[F]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[E]

The other telltale here that you suggest is the eyebrows, and in her case, that the eyebrows are not engaged. Both eyebrows should be pulled toward the middle of the brow. They help to form that grief muscle with the upside down U, Right?

[F]

Yes, yes. I wouldn't. I'm not a Botox expert or anything, but I don't think that she's on. She's Botox. And when you get Botox, it doesn't look like that. You know, you still have little movement in there. And you can still move it up here about a quarter inch down if you're. If you're jacked with it. And I don't believe she is. And we're not seeing anything in there that shows she's sad or grieving. And those. Because they should be pulled in or pulled in and upward. But we're not seeing that. We're not seeing anything because.

[E]

But to the Botox, because a lot of people do Botox. Does that impede your ability to use that as a flag? Does it. Does the Botox change the upside down U muscle, change the eyebrow movements, change the grief muscle?

[F]

Yeah, because there's not. There's not a whole lot moving in there, but you can still see movement just below that, that scalp line right in there about a quarter inch up to a quarter inch down. So you'll see some movement in there. So you can say, okay, something's happening in there. Nothing's happening in hers at all. Nothing.

[E]

Let's go back to the tears. I saw no tears with her at all. And so many of the people in the comments who looked at her video said no tears. Not buying it.

[A]

But I also wondered if.

[E]

If it's possible for some people to cry without tears.

[F]

I've never seen it. I mean, you may. I've never seen that before. They may. I'm sure somebody could pull it off, but I've never seen it. And especially in a situation like this. I've never seen it in a situation where somebody's missing, there's a family member missing, and somebody's crying and there are no tears unless they're. Unless they're teared out from crying so much. But if that was going on, her eyes would still be red. We'd still. We're not hearing that. That. That abdominal spasm either. She's trying to fake that because she keeps going, you know, breathe in real quick, but it's much quicker. And it's like, it happens really quickly. You can't help it. Like when a little child is crying how they'll try to talk and you hear that little, that stomach spasm, trying to get them some air. That's not happening, but she's trying to pretend it is.

[A]

I was going to ask you about.

[E]

That because I always call it hyperventilating, but I'm sure that's not the exact right, proper wording for it because, you know, I have noticed in myself, my, My kids went off to college, you know, a couple of days ago, and I was spontaneously just weeping all day and unable to get words out.

[F]

Oh, yeah, yeah, well, that happens because your, your larynx grips up like this. The strength gets big. You're trying not to show your, you know, the emotional part of. As much as you can. Nobody wants to, you know, full on cry in front of people. We're always trying to stop it. So you're trying to stop that. And that's what happens. As you fight that, the larynx closes up. You know, your, your eyebrows go up because you're trying. In other words, your body's saying, your brain is saying, help me, help me. As you're, as you're feeling grief, struggling.

[E]

To get the words out and, and choking literally on words. And I did notice that she had big, deep breaths, but she wasn't having the choking effect that I had when my kids and my gosh, that look, it's a great thing they're going off to college. I was just very lonely and sad. Let's talk about the dad. You mentioned that it looks like fake sadness to you because everything missing in the mom's facial expressions and her behavior is also missing with him.

[D]

Whoever took my son, please return him. We just want him back. We don't. We won't do anything to you. We just give us our son. Just keep him safe. Don't hurt him. Make sure you feed them, change them. Whoever took our son, please give him back.

[F]

Right? Right. Yeah. He's got nothing. He's got nothing in his brow. He's got, he's got nothing going on. I mean, this guy just has. He's making no, you know, the sad face. That's it, you know, and his breathing is the worst fake breathing I may have ever seen in my life where he's trying to pretend like he's sad and it's not happening enough for someone who's not getting the oxygen they need from the, the compression of the, the, the chest and the lungs and the stump, the, the abdomen. So this, this is totally fake, this guy? Yeah. No. No grief here whatsoever. Or sadness.

[A]

The, The Emotion that I saw originally.

[E]

When I first watched his clip was just, wow, he is mad. He wants to kill the person who took his baby. But you see it differently. You see this as a micro expression of anger. And if it were true anger, it would not be a micro expression. True anger would be expressed fully for the entire conversation. This expression looks like it lasts for what, an eighth of a second?

[F]

Yes, about an eighth of. About an eighth of a second. He's not that, that's not the anger you want to see. If he was mad at the person who took his child, he would have been angry the whole time. But we're seeing this like a flash of anger. And it's a flash because you're trying to hold it back. You don't want to show anger. He's mad. I think in my opinion, and I could be wrong, but this reminds me of things that I've seen before. Whereas this person has a lot of pent up aggression and anger. He's trying to hold it in and that's why it flashes out like that. If it were true anger about the child being gone and somebody and he was mad at that person, then he would have that angry face all the time. You would see those nostrils flared like that. And you see his mouth, you know, his lips tighten and it's a lot of odd things happening with this guy. A lot of odd things happening with this guy. But that those eyes put in like that, that's anger.

[A]

I wanted to ask you because, you.

[E]

Know, things have changed with the police, right? Things have also changed with the Uvalde group. They've sort of pulled back from this couple. The police have STOPP information and, and they've, you know, sent cadaver dogs to the house. They, one of their children apparently has been taken out of the house, the two year old.

[A]

And I wondered when something like this.

[E]

Happens, we all go to Susan Smith, right? That's the grandmother of the, of the whole phony might someone stole my baby. Especially with the racial component. Because this woman said I only heard the word hola and then that was it. And so do the police bring someone like you in right away to say, read this video and tell us if we're on the right track or not?

[F]

No, no, you may bring an outside interrogator in, you know, depending on what kind of what's going on. You might, might need a specialist. But no, that would be. No, they wouldn't, they wouldn't do that because they can all usually handle that. You know, the, the detectives are usually pretty Good at that. They've been. That's why if you ever get in trouble, don't get. You want the youngest person to. If you ever go out and do something bad, get the youngest detective talk to you. Because the old guys got you figured out for, you know, when you walk in the door. The young guys got to figure it out, but the older guys have seen it a thousand times no matter what you've done. And so they know where to go from there, where the younger guys are just learning, you know, for the most part. So those are the ones.

[A]

Do you notice something about her bruise under her eye?

[E]

Because I think a lot of people thought, well, there she is, she's got a bruise under her eye from being hit it in the head. And I think this interview was done the day after the alleged incident happened.

[F]

Okay, yeah. So then that's an old bruise because that one's. It's, it's leaving right now. You know, there's, there's no swelling, there's no redness around it. It's just. And so you see a little bit of the bruise up here close to the eyelid. But then you see this one mark right down through here. It looks to me like I could be wrong. It looks like another one on the other side of her face with. She had to bring attention to. But this, this bruise over here on her left side, I think that's going away. Maybe it's her right side. Wherever side it's on, it looks like it's leaving. It's, it's, it's, it's done what's supposed to do and it's going away.

[E]

So if she tells the police that I got this bruise right afterwards, and they're able to find surveillance video of this family everywhere and anywhere they've been. I mean, there's a camera everywhere and they zoom in and they see bruises from many days before then they've, then they would have caught her in a lie if, if it were in fact a lie.

[F]

Oh, yeah. And believe me, that's what they're doing. And they may have found it already. That's why they're, you know, there'll be a lot of information they don't let out yet, so those people won't be able to prepare for it. So that could be very well, what, what, what has happened is what you're talking about.

[E]

Have I missed anything? Is there something I haven't asked you about that stands out?

[F]

I'd want to see. No, but I, I'd start looking into video of them Together, the man, the woman together. And watch her as he says what's happening and watch him as he, as she talks and sees what's happening because you'll be able to tell a lot from that.

[E]

A dynamic would play out. What would you see? What would you be watching for?

[F]

Her fear when he's talking and her saying exactly what he says and just mimicking that as they go through or something really, really close to it. Not that the events didn't happen, that would happen if the events happened the way it was. But, but you'll listen to her vernacular that the words she chooses will be a lot of the same words he chooses. So watch how I would watch how she reacts to him, him in general, before and after. A lot of times you'll see people waiting for the interview to start and they'll be sitting there for a few minutes, which is good. And watch how she acts around him during that because I think she's afraid of him. I think she's afraid of that guy. That's, that's my opinion. I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like to me.

[E]

So there's reported domestic abuse in their past and he's also reportedly a convicted felon. So.

[A]

Scott Rose, Scott Rose, thank you so.

[E]

Much for this insight. I always find your expertise is so fascinating and so informative. I appreciate it. Thank you.

[F]

Well, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. I love being here.

[A]

Oh my great thanks to Scott Rouse. I always learn so much when I talk to him. And you know, we do have our spidey senses, don't we? We really do. But we can't quite put our finger on it. That's usually the expression that we use. We can't put our finger on it. What Scott Rouse does is he puts his finger on every single one of the flags when we're saying something without actually saying something. Okay, we're going to continue to watch this case because the developments do seem to be coming fast and furious. So make sure you stay tuned, make sure you subscribe because if we do some last minute updates as extras, I don't want you to miss anything at all in this case. And as always, I am so thankful that you're here. I said it before, I'll say it again. This is a community. I can't do this without you. Thank you so much for being here. I'm Ashley Banfield and if you remember one thing from this, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.