A Deal with the Devil? Megyn Kelly and Ashleigh Banfield on the Kohberger Bombshell

Summary

Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield: Episode Summary

Episode Title: A Deal with the Devil? Megyn Kelly and Ashleigh Banfield on the Kohberger Bombshell
Release Date: July 1, 2025

In this riveting episode of Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield, host Ashleigh Banfield engages in an in-depth conversation with renowned journalist Megyn Kelly. The discussion centers around two high-profile cases: the impending trial of Brian Kohberger, accused of the brutal murder of four University of Idaho students, and the ongoing legal troubles of Sean "P. Diddy" Combs. The episode delves into the complexities of plea bargains, the implications of gag orders, and the broader impacts on the American justice system.

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1. The Brian Kohberger Case: Anticipating Guilty Plea

Ashleigh Banfield opens the episode with a fervent anticipation of Brian Kohberger, the accused murderer of Kaylee Gonzalves, Maddie Mogan, Ethan Chapin, and Zanna Kernodle, finally admitting guilt. Banfield expresses skepticism and frustration over the plea deal that Kohberger has entered, which averts the death penalty in exchange for four consecutive life sentences. She raises critical questions about the lack of transparency and the minimal insights the public will gain regarding Kohberger’s motives and methods.

Notable Quotes:

• Ashleigh Banfield [00:03]: “If all goes according to plan, tell us that he's guilty... Admit that you did this horrifying thing.”
• Banfield [02:45]: “The families, they deserve as much of the why as could possibly be given to them.”

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2. Plea Deals and Lack of Transparency

The conversation shifts to the nature of the plea deal, highlighting that while it ensures Kohberger remains incarcerated for life, it leaves many unanswered questions. Banfield emphasizes the public’s right to understand the factors that led to such a heinous crime, advocating for the lifting of gag orders to allow transparency.

Notable Quotes:

• Banfield [13:12]: “I don't think we're gonna learn much from him at all.”
• Megyn Kelly [14:58]: “There's no reason to keep anything sealed or gagged at this point.”

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3. The Role of Gag Orders in High-Profile Cases

Megyn Kelly shares her concerns about the extensive use of gag orders in the Kohberger case, comparing it to other infamous trials like Jodi Arias and Casey Anthony. She argues that such restrictions undermine the fundamental American principles of transparency and free speech, fearing a slippery slope towards increased censorship.

Notable Quotes:

• Kelly [22:55]: “I don't think it was the right decision. I think there's a First Amendment and there's a right to know that was overlooked.”
• Banfield [24:30]: “I see them as the shining example in the world of the most purest justice. And that's because we're so effing transparent.”

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4. Psychological Profiling and Criminal Behavior

Both Banfield and Kelly delve into the psychological aspects of Kohberger’s actions, discussing his potential sociopathic tendencies and the chilling efficiency of his crimes. They explore how such individuals blend into society, evading detection despite exhibiting clear red flags.

Notable Quotes:

• Kelly [28:14]: “How did his parents hear Visual Snow and think, oh, that's too bad...?”
• Banfield [29:55]: “He is evil. These are outside the flock.”

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5. Insights into the Sean "P. Diddy" Combs Case

Transitioning to the Sean "P. Diddy" Combs case, Banfield and Kelly analyze recent developments suggesting a guilty verdict based on juror questions and the nature of the charges, including RICO-related offenses like sex trafficking and drug distribution. They critique the defense's handling of the case and underscore the strength of the prosecution's evidence.

Notable Quotes:

• Kelly [36:17]: “If they did that, then they found him guilty. They must have scratched out guilty.”
• Banfield [39:06]: “I checked those boxes almost every single day, multiple times a day.”

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6. The Implications of High-Profile Trials on Jurisdiction and Public Perception

The discussion extends to the broader implications of these cases on public trust in the justice system, especially in jurisdictions unaccustomed to handling such severe crimes. Both hosts ponder whether public backlash could influence future legal decisions and the perception of justice in America.

Notable Quotes:

• Banfield [25:21]: “Is this going to be an example of the floodgates opening for more jurisdictions to do this, or is it going to show this was not a good idea?”
• Kelly [27:09]: “How did we grow this human here? How did this human come to live amongst us and not be detected before now as the face of evil?”

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7. Final Reflections and Call to Action

Concluding the episode, Banfield and Kelly reiterate their commitment to uncovering the truth and advocating for justice. They emphasize the importance of public awareness and the need for systemic changes to prevent such tragedies in the future.

Notable Quotes:

• Banfield [47:55]: “No matter what happens in this trial, he will never again be spoken about in the terms that he deserves.”
• Kelly [48:18]: “I would love to come back. You know, I'm your number one fan and I love what you're doing.”

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Conclusion

This episode of Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield offers a profound exploration of two intertwined high-stakes legal cases, dissecting the intricacies of plea bargains, the psychological profiles of accused individuals, and the overarching impact of legal procedures on societal trust. Through insightful dialogue and critical analysis, Banfield and Kelly provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the challenges and ethical dilemmas facing the American justice system today.

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Additional Resources:

• Megyn Kelly Show: Available on YouTube and all major podcast platforms.
• Drop Dead Serious: Links to Ashleigh Banfield’s platforms can be found in the episode description.

Transcript

[Megyn Kelly]

Foreign.

[Ashley Banfield]

Hi, everybody. I'm Ashley Banfield and this is Drop Dead Serious. And I have never been more drop dead serious than this very moment. Because we are on the eve of finally hearing Brian Coburger. If all goes according to plan, tell us that he's guilty. Tell us that he actually killed four University of Idaho students. Confess publicly after stringing us along for two and a half years, after spending the money of the people of Idaho for Ann Taylor to defend him to the 11th hour. We're not even 30 days away from the beginning of the trial, Right? We're on the eve of finally hearing this monster. If all goes according to plan and he keeps up his end of the bargain and he pleads guilty. Monster. Admit it. Admit it. Admit that you did this horrifying thing. If he's guilty of this crime and he admits to it tomorrow, that he planned it in advance. Premeditated. Four of the most sadistic killings of the most vulnerable people. Young people in the prime of their lives, stuck studying in college, having a fun night out and coming home to go to bed. I mean, really, when are you the most vulnerable? When you're lying in your bed going off to sleep? And that is who this man is. If he finally admits it tomorrow, like the plan says he will, a plea bargain that gets him off the death penalty. That gets him away from the brand new firing squad shooting chamber that Idaho is building almost for him. Right? Maybe he's too scared to be in pain. Maybe he's too scared to be shot to death. Maybe he's too scared to be put to death. And he's accepting this deal. The deal is death is off the table, but so are appeals. You're going to go away and live in a box. Four consecutive life sentences for the four lives that you took. Kaylee Gonzalves, Maddie Mogan, Ethan Chapin and Zanna Kernodle. Four innocent kids doing their college thing. What are we going to learn, though? What will he ultimately tell us that he doesn't have to tell us legally? Right? Legally, he has to tell us a couple of things. He has to tell us the elements of the crime. And it's kind of technical. It's like, you know, I did it. At this date, I was in the state of Idaho. I engaged in a course of college conduct that led to the deaths of these four people. Name all four because there's a charge for each of them. I acted without justification. I acted with malice of forethought. Right, Malice AF. Forethought. And I willfully and deliberately and in a premeditated way, carried out these killings. That's what he legally has to cop to in court, the elements of the crime. But the why. But the how. How'd you pull it off? Why'd you pick these four? I don't think we're going to learn that. Not unless he's like Dennis Rader and he's so sadistic he wants to just twist the knife in everybody's back, including, and maybe mostly to the families of these four. Then he might go on and on and enjoy the attention of telling us how he planned it and what he did. I don't think we're going to hear that, though. And as for the gag order, doubt we'll hear that either. I doubt we'll hear most of what was under that gag order for the last two and a half years, either. And it's been weighing on me because the people of Idaho deserve it. The families, they deserve as much of the why as could possibly be given to them. They deserve it. And the rest of the public, the flock, we deserve it. We deserve to know that these devils live among us. And we deserve to know as much as we can about how to spot them. I want to live my life in peace, but I want to know how to spot them. And every piece of information I get about foul beasts who do these kinds of things, that is helpful to me to protect my children, to protect my family. It's helpful to all of us to see the red flags. And that's the stuff we deserve. I don't think we're going to get it. I sure hope we do, but I don't think we're going to. And in advance of this hearing tomorrow in Idaho, where Bryan Coburger will have to stand up and officially, on the record, change his plea from not guilty. Your honor, let's fight this out. To guilty times four and a burglary. Guilty, Guilty, Guilty, Guilty. I did it all. It's me. There was no alternate perpetrator. There was no stargazing. There was none of that. It was me. In advance of that, I had a chance to speak to one of the best in the business. She was a lawyer and finally decided she wanted to get into this business, into. Into television, into journalism. And she has risen to the top, the very tippy top of the ranks. I have admired Megyn Kelly for a long time, and then I went on her NBC show with her a while back when she was doing the daytime show, and she completely surprised me and said that she got into this business because of me, because during 911 as a lawyer, she was watching me reporting on the Trade center coming down behind me. And she said, well, I think I can do that.

[Megyn Kelly]

Before you go, I have to tell you something. I want to pay you a compliment.

[Ashley Banfield]

Please.

[Megyn Kelly]

You are one of the reasons I am sitting here.

[Ashley Banfield]

Come on.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. And I don't know if you know this, but I used to be an unhappy lawyer. And I practiced law for 10 years, and I wanted to change my life, and I didn't know how to do it. I hadn't gotten into broadcast journalism school. When I went to college, I was rejected at Syracuse. So I went to political science, became a lawyer, became unhappy, thinking to myself, I'm stuck. What am I going to do? 911 happened. I was an unhappy lawyer in Chicago. I turned on the tv. You were the one I watched. You handled yourself with such dignity, such composure. Not emotional, but empathetic to what was going on. And I felt envy, envy of you and the amazing job you were doing for America. And I believe in the Dr. Phil saying, the only difference between you and someone you envy is you settled for less. And it was a light bulb moment for me that I could be like that woman and I could be doing a service to the nation. I could also be out there with a message. And it truly gave me the inspiration to go out there, make a resume, tape, start cold calling news directors, really. And I named you in my book, and I've always felt a kinship with you.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, I'm glad you settled for more because we're all the beneficiaries of your wonderful work.

[Megyn Kelly]

Thank you. Thank you. I've always wanted to tell you that.

[Ashley Banfield]

And so she shocked me when she said that I was the reason that she chose to switch these careers and give television a go. And there she went, just skyrocketing. So I called her. As a lawyer, I wanted to know everything about her feelings about Idaho, but also about Sean Combs, because we're in the thick of that, too. We could get a verdict at any moment. And there have been some really telling questions coming from the jury. And the tea leaves are tricky to read, but people with good experience, they can read them. And Megan's one of them. So I called Megan, and she agreed to have a conversation with me about these two crimes. And it is such a fulsome conversation. I wanted to share it with you. And you already know this, but Megyn Kelly is a journalist. She's the host of the Megyn Kelly Show. You can find the Megyn kelly [e-mail] Megyn Kelly don't forget to spell her name right. M E G Y N K E l l y. So YouTube.com Megyn Kelly and then also, wherever you get your podcasts, you can, you can get her show as well. And all of the links to find me are going to be in the description of this episode. So without further ado, here is my chat with Megan about the circumstance we find ourselves in in Idaho and then also in the P. Diddy case. Okay. So I, I was gobsmacked. I don't know about you.

[Megyn Kelly]

Totally. I'm shocked. I remain shocked and disappointed.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah. And I, part of me is disappointed, of course, for the families who are so desperate to, to see this through to the firing squad. The other part of me is very sad for the people of Idaho who also wanted answers. I believe many of them wanted answers.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. That's the thing. It's like, of course I'm not disappointed that he's going to jail for the rest of his life or is admitting he did what we all knew he did. But I feel like the families and the community deserved to see him held to account, deserved to have all the doubters have to sit and listen to the overwhelming evidence against him and deserve the moment where the jury stands up and says guilty and that his fate is not in his own hands. He's not in control. Right. That those days have passed, that the state will issue a judgment on him and carry it out. But, you know, he's obviously a very controlling, sick person and tried to control this thing to the end. And the prosecution obviously had its motives and it's obvious what they were to letting him do that. And I just think this case was so open and shut, they did not need to cooperate with him on this.

[Ashley Banfield]

And this is where I'm flummoxed. Right. I saw that they got him dead to rights. I did not see a need for a deal other than the majority of the families or the surviving roommates begged for, you know, don't put us through the misery. That's not, that's not true. It's about half an half and the cost to the people of Idaho, which shouldn't factor in, but we all know the way things work.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'm persuaded by what your colleague Brian Enten was saying and what some legal analysts that I know who've tried a bunch of cases were saying, which is Idaho was not ready for primetime on this, the criminal justice system there, that they haven't had a lot of death penalty cases, that it's you know, it's a more bucolic, rural area, that it's not like being a New York City prosecutor or a Los Angeles prosecutor where you see murder cases all the time and death penalty eligible cases, you know, a fair amount. And so Brian was saying that they really didn't want anything to do with this case from the beginning. You know, they knocked down the murder house over the objections of some of the families, pretty soon on depriving the potential jury of the opportunity to ever walk through it and see it as they did in the Murtaugh case, which was persuasive. You know, they moved it, they moved the venue, they put the gag order in place to try to stop all conversation about. I mean, that's just so rare. Like, the families aren't allowed to talk about their children's murder. They were so paranoid about press coverage. It was just. They didn't seem like they'd been through this before. And so I think all that factored.

[Ashley Banfield]

In prosecutor Bill Thompson. Jennifer Coffendoffer told me last night that he's only got, I think, two cases or two or three. I think she said that he's taken through to fruition, and the rest are all deals in these kinds of murder cases, which just sort of like, blew my lid.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, even like the unwillingness to fight to stop some of these enormous delays that Ann Taylor managed to get out of this judge. You know, the prosecution kept rolling over on the delay and delay and delay. I mean, it's been years. It's been three plus years now, and that were going on. It doesn't take this long to prepare a murder trial for the prosecution or defense. But I just think everyone just wanted something else. They didn't want it. They wanted this case to end as it did. And I'm not surprised to hear it was Ann Taylor who went to them on Friday and said, please make us an offer. And they were probably hugely relieved that they weren't going to have to see it through to trial. And maybe we should be relieved because this wasn't necessarily in hands that could have gotten us the verdict we wanted or given us the trial, you know, the family deserved. Maybe we should be relieved. I'm not feeling that yet.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, my God, I mean, with the scant material that we have that's just sort of oozed from the gag order, I felt they got them, you know, slam dunk. And I hate saying slam dunk. I mean, look, you're a lawyer. You never say slam dunk after oj, Right? But this is as close as you come. And it just. It boggles the mind that they had it and they let it go. But for the fact that I watched Jodi Arias.

[Megyn Kelly]

Right.

[Ashley Banfield]

They had her dead to rights, too. And they had a death qualified jury in Arizona, of all places. And that jury could not vote death. And there she went with all her appeals, keeping us busy for years and ruining, you know, multiple legal professionals careers in the. In the process.

[Megyn Kelly]

And look at Casey Anthony. I mean, we all thought she was definitely gonna be found guilty. That was a stunning moment. I couldn't believe our eyes that, like, why wouldn't the jury see it? So, I mean, I like to believe that was not gonna happen in this case. This is the evidence. I've never seen a murder trial with so much evidence against one man. And to me, that was always like the. Yeah, that. We know that.

[Ashley Banfield]

We know there was so much more.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's the other thing. Is the gag order finally gonna be lifted? Are we gonna be. Are we gonna be able to see everything they have?

[Ashley Banfield]

I had a chat with two Idaho attorneys who are pretty versed in this, and they said the only things that have to happen and likely will happen Wednesday. And I thought they'd happen during sentencing, but they'll happen during the hearing. Where he's gonna change his plea is that he has to allocate to the elements of the crime. They're very specific and they're sort of cut and dry. Certainly nothing about motive, certainly nothing about why these four. Certainly nothing about how it all happened. Just that he. Well, I can read them. It's dry as af. But he doesn't have to talk about why them, why this, just that I did do it, and I did it with a knife, and I was in Idaho at this time. The real, you know, functional stuff.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, I. No, I don't expect we're gonna learn much from him at all. And I think, A, he's not required to, and B, he's not gonna want to because I'm convinced that he's enjoying putting the family through the pain. He doesn't wanna offer them any relief whatsoever.

[Ashley Banfield]

I think you're right.

[Megyn Kelly]

He likes to see them suffer. And he knows the more he says, the more satisfied they are. Not satisfied, exactly, but you know what I mean. The more it's sating, in a way, because they have so many questions and they need some answers. They haven't gotten any from him. So I think he'll withdraw. He'll withhold any comment, even though he could offer one. For that reason alone, however, the gag order should be lifted, and we should now be able to see everything the prosecution had. There's no reason to keep anything sealed or gagged at this point. They should be able to tell us everything they had. Maybe they'll be reluctant because it'll be so strong. We'll be even more flabbergasted that they didn't go forward with this.

[Ashley Banfield]

And the pain. Look, I will say this. Those. Those attorneys I spoke with talked about the gag order, too, and they said, don't expect it. That's not something that's. That's necessary. So don't expect that. That's an automatic. But I go back to Chris Watts because that was also the identical thing. I will plead guilty. I will give up my right to appeal. I will go and live in a box until I die, which will likely be 60 some odd years. But he just gave the basics and very little else. And so they also did not open up that case afterwards and started two years later, which was odd to me. They started leaking those bits and pieces out years later.

[Megyn Kelly]

So my only. This is a weird thing to say, too, but my only comfort in this Kohlberger plea deal is Chris Watts, who is truly the most vile person we've had in our lifetime. Like, that crime is unmatched in its horror. But he talked. Eventually he started talking from prison about he had to. Some of these guys just have to tell you what they did. And so we do know a lot about that case from him, you know, from his jail cell. And so maybe it will be the case with Bryan Kohlberger that, you know, he definitely thinks he's the smartest man in any room. He's gotta tell us how clever he was in getting rid of the murder weapon or getting out of there without any blood on him. Maybe the fact that he's going to be allowed to live over the many years he's looking at it in a box, he'll feel the need to talk to some journalist or some, you know, law enforcement. It could be who goes in there and gets it out of him. And so we actually could potentially get answers. But I was gonna say earlier, and I didn't make this point, that one of the weirdnesses of this case that's always puzzled me is how obviously Kohlberger is in some ways brilliant. You know, there's no question that to effectuate this crime in 12 minutes, in and out, no blood, and just the amount of planning that would have had to go into it would have required some level of, you know, superior Know how? But then the more you learned about the just absolutely sophomoric mistakes he made. Yes. Like, how can that be the same person? Right. I know.

[Ashley Banfield]

I know how. They think they're brilliant, and they watch Dexter and Forensic Files, and maybe they start learning the beginnings of it in college, but they think they're smarter than they are. And you and I have been to this rodeo enough times that we see these jackasses and stand up in court. And like Dennis Raider, they are. They are so full of hubris that you can just see it in them. They believe they're gods. They can get away with it. They know everything. And the truth is, they never do.

[Megyn Kelly]

Mm. But this guy was smart, too. I mean, truly, how do you commit a quadruple murder by stabbing and not get any blood on your clothes? Well, we haven't recovered his actual clothes, but, like, on yourself, in your. In your car.

[Ashley Banfield]

I have a theory. I do. He went out that kitchen sliding glass door, and he turned left to the roadway that went up the side of the house, not out front. And he was there in the shadows and in the bushes. And he stripped everything down into a plastic bag and got into his car covered in sheets. And then when he got out of his car up at the lake, he bagged that all up, too, and threw everything, you know, with a rock into a lake somewhere. And then was clean as a whistle when he came back and turned his phone back on. And there was the sophomore idiot move where he turned his phone off and turned his phone on. Really, honestly, like, how did he.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so that's possible, but even that is very clever. I mean, most murderers do not pull that off, even if they've tried to plan in advance and to cover their tracks. You know, he was definitely using his criminal justice background to serve him. But the fact that. Right. He didn't create a pattern where the phone always went off at midnight and then turned back on at 8. Like, he didn't see that coming. The Amazon searches for the K Bar knife and for the uniform, like, he didn't think that they were going to see that. The Internet.

[Ashley Banfield]

And the replacement. The replacement searches for another sheath and knife. I mean, bozo.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes. And also, like, what the word coming out of the defense when that first came up at an evidentiary hearing was. Well, we don't know. We don't know who did those searches for the K Bar knife, but actually, it turned out to be. They could see. They can see that you clicked on it. Brian Colbert clicked on it. It wasn't Just an ad that got served up to him. He had clicked on it. And so like his Internet searches, he didn't. Everybody knows that Anybody who's watched 2 Datelines know they're going to be able to find your Internet searches. How did he get on the Internet and do all those searches for, you know, Ted Bundy right after the murder and like not think that this was going to come back to haunt him?

[Ashley Banfield]

I thought maybe the Pennsylvania. When he was active in his parents house in Pennsylvania, maybe he learned it from Casey Anthony. Right, because she pulled that too. Oh, well, anybody's fingers could have been on the Casey Anthony household. Right, because her parents lived there, George and Cindy lived there. Maybe they typed it. Maybe he was thinking that in Pennsylvania. But whatever he did, by the time he ended up in Washington State. That's confounding.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes, all of it. Like, I don't. I would love to hear an interview of this guy. And that's really what I would, what I would love. You know, I want someone to sit down with him, ideally with the family's blessing, but even without, and just try to get him to tell the story. Because I do think he's full of enough hubris that he might at some point be interested. Interested in that Once he's made the family suffer longer, like at some point he'll get bored with that and he'll be looking for a new way. And if he's convinced talking about it by that point might resurrect it for them, maybe he'll talk. And I think he'll be wrong. I think at any point the family would like to hear his explanation of exactly what he did and why. And I just don't think, like he's a young man that he's gonna be able to stay silent forever. And frankly, Ashley, you know, he could get killed in prison too. Like, you know how these prisoners are. They don't really take kindly to guys who hurt the most vulnerable. There's sort of a code in prison, you know, that's why the child molesters are the most in danger. You kill the, you know, two 20 year olds, two 21 year olds for no reason. And you're so creepy. There's a chance this guy doesn't make it another 10 years or the other.

[Ashley Banfield]

Inmates will be so terrified that, you know, the devil lives among them. They'll, they'll not want to raise the ire of someone who can kill them in their sleep, in their cell. Let me ask you something. I don't know if anybody's really gone here yet. But Dateline and the episode that they ran that broke so much news and, you know, unearthed so much from the gag order. There are lots of rumors that that came from an Idaho cop. It's not proven out. I don't know that to be true. But if that is the case, do you see that at all as a potential impetus for the prosecutors to say, oh, God, did we screw up here? And that is ripe for all sorts of appellate issues. Maybe we do need this deal because of our own people leaking that material before trial.

[Megyn Kelly]

I don't think so. I agree. It had to be law enforcement or somebody on team Prosecution. It was just too detailed. And there's. There was no reason for someone on team defense to leak it. I suppose they might. If you wanted to make the prosecution look like it was leaking it, that might be one, but I just doubt it. I think it was team prosecution, and I think they wanted it out there how strong the case was. But it wasn't provable unless you had it dead to rights that it was a cop. It wasn't going to be an issue for appeal. And, you know, in most cases, there's not a gag order, so media coverage wouldn't be a grounds for appeal. You know, it doesn't make the defendant's trial less fair. It can be mitigated against at trial, you know, in voir dire of the jury. What have you seen? What have you heard? Can you still always have been?

[Ashley Banfield]

Always.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. Happens in every. Look what's going to the Luigi Mangioni case, you know, that's. Everybody's heard about that by this point. There's a lot of cases like that. And Diddy. Everybody knew who Diddy was. They worked it in the questionnaires that those jurors got to try to get the bias out.

[Ashley Banfield]

So Michael Jackson, Robert Blake, O.J. some of the most heavily covered cases in our lifetime. And they got juries and they got acquittals. Two of them. Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

And they got nonstop press coverage. Yeah. Michael Jackson, three of them, probably the chief among them, not to mention Scott Peterson. Look at him like, I mean, he got convicted. Got convicted. But I'm saying, like, there was so much coverage, like, it's. It's strange to have this kind of a sweeping gag order in a criminal case. I don't. I don't think it was the right decision. I think there's a First Amendment and there's a right to know that was overlooked.

[Ashley Banfield]

I've been losing my mind over this gag order. I get it. I Know why? I get it. I work in the business. I know why gag orders help those who are litigating cases. It's et cetera. But, you know, I'm an immigrant, so I'm one of the most pious Americans among us. And I look at this, we're the shining example in the world of the most purest justice. And that's because we're so effing transparent. I have been in Iraq pre Saddam, where people were too afraid to turn their heads to the right to look in a passing car at Saddam's palace. They literally thought that they were being watched. So I get it, how awful it can be. And I feel the squeeze of the state when these gag orders are so incredibly sweeping and so oppressive. And I just wonder how you feel about this one. Like, is this going to be an example of the floodgates opening for more jurisdictions to do this, or is it going to show this was not a good idea? This had a lot of backlash and a lot of people and journalists, you know, pushed against this, and it's not a good result?

[Megyn Kelly]

I wish I could answer that wisely. In general, in this country, we're getting more authoritarian and cracking down on free speech. And that's a bad thing. You know, the Europeans have lost their ever loving minds on it. They're literally arresting people for bad opinions. I mean, literally in Germany, so. And. And by the way, it's spreading to the uk. I mean, I know somebody who's getting in trouble for that right now. And in France, too. So the trend is to get more censorious. And I think, unfortunately, we're seeing some of that here. But I don't know, there's a. There's a lifeblood that runs through the American people's veins that says no. And so I think. I can't imagine it's gonna be. If it's a trend, it's gonna catch on with any fire, but it probably won't be the last because it wasn't overturned. It held, at least in theory, to the end of the case, even though it was violated at every turn. So I don't know. I wish I could say.

[Ashley Banfield]

And then. So there's the other question I go back to. I always sort of open up my vault of cases that I've covered, and I look at the Stanford swimmer, and the judge's decision in that case caused such an uproar among his constituents. There was a recall, you know, like there were consequences to doing things in American jurisprudence that your community doesn't like. And I wondered if you think this could be a consequence here, that we might actually see the people of Idaho rise up and say, not on our watch.

[Megyn Kelly]

See, I don't think so, because I think they, too, are traumatized by this whole case. You know, it's like I said, you moved to New York City, you know you're gonna be moving near crime. You move to Chicago, you know for sure you're gonna be living near crime, murderous crime, like, kind of frequently not in your backyard, but, you know, not too far away. And it's a decision you make and you trust the cops, and you think life will be in order there. But I think in Idaho, this was so jarring because it was such an otherwise safe community that this had to be extremely, deeply rattling. So there was an instinct to just cede the arguments to the person in the robes who seems to know better. You know, let's do what we need to do in order to make sure this guy goes away. I think was the general feeling like the judge is telling us, in order to make sure this is a fair trial, that he can't appeal, wink, wink. We've got to put every protection in place to make sure he's protected. And I think that's why most people said, okay, we'll go along with this. And so I don't think they're second guessing that now. I think they're probably thinking, yeah, we get it. We had to do it. And, you know, people live in Idaho, I don't know, I think they're not exactly Live Free or Die New Hampshireites. Right. But they're. I think they're used to a more orderly, peaceful existence than what Bryan Kohlberger's actions have thrust them into. And they're probably very happy to have it settling back down.

[Ashley Banfield]

It's also one of the reasons it was probably such a massive headline, apart from the fact that it was Truman Capote's In Cold Blood, it happened in the most bucolic area that you can imagine. Right. You don't just. You just don't see that.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes. And it was just so heinous and devastating in its efficiency, its brutality. You know, it was just that Dateline that we just referenced that revealed the new details with Zanna Kernodle running for her life. He chased her. I mean, somehow it was better when she was possibly asleep in her bed or at least in her bedroom. I don't know. But, like, she seems to have interrupted him on his exit from the top two murders. The first two murders on the top floor, they carved Ethan Chapin's legs. Like just a special level, level of sadism there. I mean, this truly was a crime that the more you heard about it, the more you just did a head scratch on. How did we grow this human here? How did this human come to live amongst us and not be detected before now as the face of evil? That's really one of the questions.

[Ashley Banfield]

It's amazing you say that, because I have this. I have this sort of running narrative in my head about people like this, right? Dennis Raider, Jodi Arias. I have this running narrative in my head that we have a flock and we are a part of this flock together, where we all have our differences, but there are some who are so far outside the flock they almost don't share our DNA. They're literally just not part of the flock. They didn't stray from the flock. They were never in it in the beginning. And I don't know if you're born bad, I don't know if you're born this bad or if it's a cross between. You're born a little bad and something goes wrong in the process, and that's how you just get jettisoned. I really can't come to terms with.

[Megyn Kelly]

It because there are sociopaths who don't murder. You know, I think there are a fair amount of sociopaths in the United States who just don't feel any emotion and have to learn the right responses for the right behavior so that they can socially function and not be detected as somebody who has no emotion. And then there's. Then there are their Bryan Kohlbergers who are just deeply sick and, like, have no emotion and actually then get off on sadism, you know, like, it's a thing for them. I don't know if it's sexual fetish or what it is, but that's next level. And how is it not detected? How, like, did his parents hear Visual Snow and think, oh, that's too bad. And then heroin addiction and think, oh, I wish we could help him with that. But never glean we've got the makings of a serial killer. You wouldn't, right?

[Ashley Banfield]

You wouldn't jump from that. That's like. That's like, oh, I've detected that my child has special needs. He's going to kill someone that. You wouldn't make that jump. You never would.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, you could, though. You could. Because it's like, I'd like to know more. I'd like to know about whether there was animal torture. What did they see? Because I've interviewed Moms who say, I'm a mother of a sociopath who will say, I need help. There's no system in the American system right now in the justice system, the penal system or the mental health system to help me. I have a child. I've interviewed them. I did this massive special on NBC that I'll never forget with mom saying, and it's not just boys. My daughter or my son is a sociopath. They killed the family hamster, the family cat, the family dog. They tortured this, that, the other thing. And so the signs are there. I'd love to know more about this guy's background and what the family saw. There's one final note. I don't know if you saw that Howard Bloom, you know, who has been reporting on this for airmail. He's reporting that one of the reasons the prosecution may have wanted to settle or, sorry, the defense may have wanted to settle, is that there's a possibility Brian Kohlberg did not want his mom and dad to have to testify. The dad about the conversations they had on the drive cross country back to the Poconos from Washington state and the mom who's believed to have been the one who received the 6am phone call from him the morning after the murders and spoke for an hour about what? Right. So I don't know, maybe Bryan Kohlberger, with no empathy for anyone else, had some for the family and the position he was about to put them in. Or maybe Ann Taylor just used that to push him into the decision.

[Ashley Banfield]

I thought it was the alternate perpetrators. Once she lost that opportunity to say those four people did it, she literally had no quivers left or no arrows left in the, in the quiver and looked at her client and said, for God's sake, help me help you or you're going to the firing squad. Literally. I can't do anything more.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, what do you. Can we just talk about this for a minute? Because I feel like Kohlberger would have loved a six week trial with his name in the news every day and wouldn't feel afraid to face a firing squad. Like, would not feel afraid about receiving the death penalty. And there were even discussions like Howard Bloom, who's got a lot of sources both on the, on team, on team prosecution and defense was, was saying Ann Taylor seemed to be suggesting like she might need some intervention in getting her client to accept a guilty plea. Like that he wasn't quite getting that he needed to plead guilty and like maybe laying the foundation for an incompetence declaration so that, you know, he could be forced to. This is all pie in the sky stuff, but sure, why would he? Why would Kohlberger? I mean, it just doesn't seem like him to want to save his own life as opposed to be the star of a big trial.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, especially in a state that has death row inmates who've been on death row for 30 to 40 years, there's no reason why not roll the dice, right? Your incarceration circumstance won't be that different. You're gonna be locked up anyway, forever. So why not roll the dice and shoot for the moon? Maybe you will get one of these Robert Blake, OJ Circumstances. Or maybe you'll get a Jodi Arias, where you do get the opportunity to come back to court as many times as you want. To twist the knife as many times as you want, right?

[Megyn Kelly]

And now I'm thinking of Chris Watts again, because you remember his dad is the one who, like, got him to confess first on camera in this interrogation room. Who sat across from him and kind of said, like, what did you do? And got the first confessions. They weren't the full confession of what he had fully done. He tried to mitigate it, but maybe the parents played some role. We'll probably learn more in the coming days. Even with a psychopath or a sociopath, it's possible the parents can have some impact or the family can.

[Ashley Banfield]

While I have you, we are clearly in the middle of another very big breaking true crime story in the Sean Puffy Combs Diddy case. And there have been a couple of questions from the jurors. And I'm always reading the tea leaves when I see the questions.

[Megyn Kelly]

Of course.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, the first one really threw me for a loop. And I don't know that the syntax is right. I don't know clearly what they mean. But we have a juror, juror 25, who. Who we believe cannot follow your instructions. And it went away. It went away.

[Megyn Kelly]

Cannot? What do you mean, cannot? It makes it sound like he's got an English comprehension problem, you know, like, wait a minute, what? And then, of course, everybody's like, who's juror 25? All right, so he's a 51 year old, reportedly Hispanic man. He's got two PhDs, molecular biology and something else. And he's a veterinarian. He's got a male partner who's a graphic designer. He likes opera, he likes nature documentaries. He seems perfectly capable of comprehending a judge's instructions.

[Ashley Banfield]

For the last seven weeks, they have not been silent among each other. They're not supposed to discuss the case, but they can talk about everything else under the sun for seven weeks when they're stuck in a room together. You would know by now if somebody is incapable of following instructions or communicating. So it was a weird thing, but it went away. That was what I was also surprised at.

[Megyn Kelly]

Like, all of a sudden, it wasn't will not. It was cannot, which is strange, too. It went away. And I was, you know, I was talking to Matt Murphy, lifetime prosecutor and put away some of our worst serial killers. And he was saying his first instinct when he heard that was, this is a nightmare for the prosecution. The defense has got to be relieved. There's some sort of a shit stir in the jury room, and that's a plus. And that he probably sat down and said, no matter what you say, I'm only gonna find as follows. You know, like, you don't need to deliberate. It's guilty or it's not guilty, period. Like, I can never be persuaded. And the other jurors being like, well, the judge told us to deliberate, and I had the same instinct. We know. None of us knows anything, but this is the parlor game we play. And it's kind of fun to just try to read these questions. I have no idea what happened with juror 25 or what's happening right now, but they do seem to be going through the counts, and based on the progressive questioning, they do seem to be making their way through them. My guess is that they made their way potentially through rico. And they're onto sex trafficking now because they're asking about Cassie Ventura's specific testimony, the testimony of the escort who was with her, the intercontinental. We don't know, because sex trafficking is also one of the predicate acts for the RICO count. So they could still be on rico. But in the other question that's interesting to me is they asked that question about distribution of drugs, possession with the intent to distribute. And that's one of the RICO predicate acts.

[Ashley Banfield]

That's right.

[Megyn Kelly]

If you look at the jury instructions, the jury instructions talk about the predicate acts first, and then kind of say, okay, then there may be rico. But the jury verdict form starts with, is he guilty of racketeering?

[Ashley Banfield]

Racketeering. That's right.

[Megyn Kelly]

Guilty or not guilty. And then it says, only if you check guilty, should you go down here and tell us which of the predicate acts he's guilty of? And so they went down and started, like, clicking one of these acts and eventually may have gotten to possession with intent to distribute. So if they did that, then they found him guilty. If they're going off the verdict form, they must have clicked guilty. They must have scratched out guilty. That's my. I mean, no idea whether that's true. Yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

And I thought so for sure. With the question about the distribution, like, if somebody asks for it, does that not make a distribution? And the jury instructions were very clear. I mean, to me, they were very clear. I don't know about the jury, but they seemed very, very clear to me. So I feel like they've got them there. But then these questions about wanting Cassie Ventura's testimony and also the escort who was there for the free cough where he said, I could hear her being beaten in the room next door. And when they came back, I lost my ed. I lost my ability to perform. And I feel like they're on that because they're focusing on that being a free cough where there was physical force and a command to finish strong. Do you remember that? Finish strong.

[Megyn Kelly]

Totally, totally agree with you. They wanted to see the testimony about that encounter. They wanted to see what happened with her on the plane after con or after. Around Khan, which is when they flew back commercial and he pulled out the phone and showed her the freak off and said, I could show this to people. Threatened her that he had this tape and that he could use it against her. And the intercontinental. I mean, those three, in my mind, is a more prosecution oriented person. That's three incidents of force or coercion right there.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah. And the kidnapping is so black and white to me as well. So there's my last question for you because I know I gotta let you go. I've been losing my mind since the beginning. Literally since the opening statements about lawyers who go on television and say, nope, I'm not seeing it. I'm not. Who are these attorneys? I am not a lawyer. And I saw it every single day. I checked a box every single day. And some of those boxes were checked 15 to 20 times on what they proved under RICO, all those predicate acts. And there were 37 to choose from. I think they chose eight. But I checked those boxes almost every single day, multiple times a day. I checked sex trafficking. I checked crossing state lines for the purpose of prostitution. I checked distribution, bribery, kidnapping. I checked the boxes nonstop. And yet attorneys who are smarter than I am went all over television to say, I'm not seeing it. It won't happen.

[Megyn Kelly]

Mm. I think there's two groups. There's one that's earnest and I'll get to them next. But there's a second group that got so Burned on the Johnny Depp Amber Heard kind of case that now they're like, no, I see. I see the zebra. You know, I didn't see the last time, but now I see it. I see the zebra, not the horse. And I'm not going to get burned again. I see how they're not going to bring this home, you know, jury nullification, Sean Diddy Combs, they're not going to want to find him guilty. So they think they're going to be just the most clever in saying they don't have it here. I've been saying to my audience, same like, this is not Johnny Depp Amber heard at all. Like, she was a terrible witness. She fell apart on cross examination. This Cassie Ventura was not a terrible witness. She was actually very sympathetic. And I know Magnifico got up there in closing as I guess she's. She's in control. She was running these two guys against each other. She's no victim. So I don't think the jury's going to buy that. She was a very sympathetic witness.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

So that's.

[Ashley Banfield]

So what if she was in control? She got beaten into submission so many times, her colleagues and her friends couldn't count.

[Megyn Kelly]

Right. And that's not even disputed. And they're just like, well, that's just domestic violence. But the prosecution did a good job on rebuttal of saying it's not just domestic violence violence. Domestic violence used to force somebody to get back into that room and finish strong. As you just reminded us, that's sex trafficking. When you use violence to force your partner in life to go perform a sex act, it's illegal for a number of reasons. Yes, you could charge them with battery and assault, but you can also charge them with sex trafficking, which is what done here. But I will say this in defense of the more earnest people who think Diddy's going to get off of this. And that is there is this conflict, right? There is this sort of conflict. Agniphilo is smart. I thought to say they wrapped yellow crime scene tape around his bedroom and try to reframe it by saying he would have pleaded guilty to domestic violence, but he's not even charged with that. Because in our minds as humans, as Americans, we saw this thing built up into like, it was. He was going to be the next Epstein, you know, like the federal raids on his properties and then, like, was he trying to abscond with his sons in the plane out of the United States and videotapes and, oh, my God, who's on them? And like he was going to bring everybody down. There was this massive crime ring and it did, in my view, even wind up being a relatively small case of, you know, mostly Jane and Cassie.

[Ashley Banfield]

And missed the third one, though. The third one that walked away and wouldn't testify. We missed her.

[Megyn Kelly]

Exactly. We missed her.

[Ashley Banfield]

I think it was Gina. Right? The Gina. I think that was the one that walked away.

[Megyn Kelly]

And we never heard from, you know, KK or the bodyguard. Like, there were. There were some holes in the case that left you feeling a little like, wait, so it's all about these freak offs he had with a few women in which he behaved like an absolute cad. But the women called the escorts and the women paid the escorts and they had text messages from the women saying, when's our next freak off? And also, well, I did it to get my free rent. Right. So it's just. It gets a little bit more complicated to people who haven't been paying really close attention.

[Ashley Banfield]

Like, that's it. That's it. If they haven't been paying attention. I get it with Jane. She wanted a beautiful, luxurious $10,000 a month apart. Want to lose it. However, prosecutors were real smart about it, saying, you can't threaten someone's roof over their head if they don't perform a sex act, no matter what the beauty of the roof. So I get that. I think it's going to be hard for them to stomach it in the jury room. But with Cassie, nope, I do not see that being difficult at all. She was like, like I said, too many beatings to count. There were too many witnesses to too many beatings to count. And there were too many text messages saying, I literally don't want this. They used to say, you couldn't rape your wife. Now you can. So your wife married you because she was in love with you and the sex was great. And then things turned sideways and then you raped her. Does that mean that because she loved it all the way along until you started raping her, it's no longer rape. I think this is the same thing. They always said, you can't sex traffic your girlfriend. Well, now you can. Now you can.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, I think. I think a lot of people don't understand what sex trafficking really is or looks like. And I was one of them. I mean, up until about six years ago, seven, eight years ago, I didn't totally understand sex trafficking. I thought it was like mostly something that happened to, like, girls from other countries who kind of got mass ordered. Yeah, that kind of thing. And then just a life of abuse. It's so much more vast than that. And I've interviewed sex trafficking victims. One woman's story was she dated a man online. I mean, got to know a man online and then they were getting together for their first in person date. She was really looking forward to it. And when she got in his car, he told her that she was going to go upstairs into this hotel and sleep with these men for money or her toddler son was going to be hurt. And he had the toddler son in his friend's possession. He had already taken the son. That's sex trafficking. She was forced, she did it. She was forced to go upstairs and have the sex acts. I mean, this is a very, very scary, low level human who does this to women. And I mean, what would you do? You know, it's like, and then you're, you're sucked into this life where like oftentimes they do videotape you and then they'll threaten to ruin your life or they know where you live, they know where your son lives now. It's just very, very dark. So it can happen in a number of ways. This force or coercion thing can happen to women who are totally not expecting or suspecting this of, of their partner. And that's what I see in the Diddy case. Like these women genuinely wanted a relationship with him. In the beginning. It started off like, okay, he's got this freaky thing he likes, so I'll accommodate him. And then before they knew it, it was just the dominant theme of their relationship. And there was real hell to pay if they didn't do it. They knew they didn't really have free choice to say no or they'd get beaten or publicly humiliated or extorted. And that's where he crossed a line from having just a freaky sex life that wouldn't have been any of the government's business to becoming a criminal.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, I think we're learning now, Megan, honestly. And the public will get it soon enough if they don't get it. Now. There is a difference between commercial sex trafficking and elite sex trafficking. Sometimes the men don't get money off the backs of the women who are being put into these positions. Jeffrey Epstein was not getting money off them. He was getting his jollies. Diddy, if he's guilty, was not getting money off him, he was getting his jollies. And the jollies are the actual worth. So there is a difference and they are the same. There is a transaction not always for money.

[Megyn Kelly]

Can I tell you something? The thing About Diddy, too, is I had the same feeling about him that we talked about in the Bryan Kohlberger segment. Not that he's as bad as Kohlberger, who committed quadruple murder, but the same thing that we were talking about. How, like, is this even a duck? I don't know. I don't understand. I don't have the proper lens through which to judge this conduct. When you really sat and listened to the testimonials of these women, like Jane with the. All she kept begging him for was just a nice dinner. She just wanted to have dinner with him. She didn't want to have another freak off or debauchery or hotel night with him. She wanted, like a normal boyfriend girlfriend night. And he kept promising, and no sooner did he hang up the phone saying, tonight's the night, then he'd call the escort and make sure he knew he didn't use her. He was right. He was going to make her do it. The thing about. With her, like, we're going to do a sober night. And he made her be with the two escorts. And then she's like, I can't go on. I can't do it. And she threw up. She was sober and she felt like a barn animal and said, I can't, I can't. And he was like, that's good. You threw up. Now you're gonna be able to finish off Nick, get back out there like that. What is that? Is that a human? That's not a human as I understand it. I don't know what that is. I don't know what happened to this guy in his childhood that he's got that level of depravity in him. But no matter what happens to this guy, I will never be able to look at him again. And I will make it my personal mission to ensure that he is shamed and anyone who does business with him is shamed. Because I will bring up these testimonials. I just feel like he. He has moved himself out of the category of human with whom we can deal, whose behavior or mistakes we can understand. He's not there. He's. He's. He's a. He's evil. These are outside the flock.

[Ashley Banfield]

He is outside the flock. He doesn't belong inside the flock anymore. And I'm with you. I'm ojing him. No matter what happens in this trial, he will never again be spoken about in the terms that he deserves. And he deserves the terms that I will speak of him just like you, because he's heinous. What he's done.

[Megyn Kelly]

For the record, these are our opinions. He denies everything.

[Ashley Banfield]

Correct. And he's not guilty in a court of law until he is 100% correct. Gosh, I love you so much. Thank you so much for all of this. Let's do this every day, every month, every year, every, every time.

[Megyn Kelly]

I would love to come back. You know, I'm your number one fan and I love what you're doing.

[Ashley Banfield]

Oh, right back at you. And you know that. Thanks, Megan.

[Megyn Kelly]

All right, see you soon.

[Ashley Banfield]

My great thanks to Megan. You know, I always really love having conversations with people who think about these cases. They think deeply and they're affected by these cases. And Megan is one of them. She looked at these cases, you know, from the beginning. And, you know, mostly she does politics, but. But when it comes to these kinds of crimes, she follows the evidence. She doesn't just get emotional about. She follows the evidence. And so when I get a chance to have a conversation, long conversation, deep conversation about facts, bad facts, good facts, details, ramifications, and just the whole system itself, where we are with our legal system in America, I am so deeply appreciative. So for that, you know, my great thanks to Megan for doing that. And a reminder, again, Megan is a journalist. She's the host of the Megyn Kelly Show. You can find the Megyn kelly [e-mail] Megyn Kelly. M E G Y N K E L L Y. You can find her wherever you get your podcasts. And again, all of the links to everything Megan, whether it's SoC, whether it's YouTube, whether it's podcasts, all of that is linked in the descriptions of this episode below. And as I always say, thank you so much, everyone, for being a part of Drop Dead Serious. Because the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead seriously.