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Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
Amanda Knox: Trauma, Tabloids, and the Long Road Back from Hell
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- [00:00]
Amanda Knox
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Ashley Banfield
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Drop Dead Serious. I'm Ashley Banfield, and today I'm doing something I've really been looking forward to. I'm talking to Amanda Knox. And there are a whole bunch of reasons why I've been really looking forward to this conversation. Number one, it might be one of the biggest true crime stories of the last two decades. If you lived through it. You know what I mean? If you know, you know, if you did not live through it, this podcast is for you, because I'm going to take you through what happened to Amanda Knox, and I'm going to go soup to nuts. So you might be a little confused. I think I heard she was a killer. I think she was exonerated, but I don't know everything in between. I got you. But number three, Amanda is. I mean, for lack of a better description, she's amazing. She really is. She is so incredibly articulate and poised and sober and thoughtful and as a victim of a crime, because that is what she is. She was a victim. She lost her roommate and her friend, and her home was a bloody crime scene, and then she was thrown in prison for it. Wrongfully. She's never been given that grace of being treated like a victim of a crime. Right. She's never been allowed to grieve for the death of her friend and roommate or what she lost in life. Right. Like everything that she knew, life as she knew it. So the conversation that I'm having with her is a very profound one about all of these things, not to mention how women, especially pretty ones, get targeted sometimes in these stories, and very unfairly so. And now the headlines can just take on a life of their own. Damn the facts. So Amanda is just a great interview for all of these things, but also because of her insight into us and the human condition and. And what we do to each other and how to get out of it and who survives and who doesn't. So let me start here. In 2007, Amanda was 20. She was smart, beautiful, adventurous. Amanda Knox had just arrived in Italy for a year of studying abroad. But within weeks, she would be behind bars. She was accused of stabbing her British roommate in a crime so salacious, the tabloids simply could not help themselves. I mean, the headlines, A sex game. A jealous rage. Blood all over the walls. The courtroom circus that followed spanned nearly a decade. The story, on the surface, was simple. A young woman was brutally killed in the house that she shared with her American roommate, Amanda Knox. Amanda was a fellow student, and like Meredith, Amanda was also young and beautiful. But suddenly, Amanda was thrust into the international spotlight, wrapped up in a justice system that didn't know what hit them. For years, the question dominated the headlines. Was Amanda Knox a cold hearted killer or an innocent woman caught in a foreign nightmare? This case was about much more than just murder. It was about media frenzy and bad science. It was about the terrifying reality of how fast your entire life can be upended and destroyed by a story that sounds right even when it isn't. In this episode, I'm going to take you step by step through the entire timeline, and then joining me to talk about all of it, Amanda Knox herself. She is here to walk us through what really happened and what she lived through behind bars. And maybe more importantly, what has happened since. When she recently reached out and went to visit her prosecutor in Italy. You won't believe what he says about her now. And the one thing he now does every day since meeting Amanda, he texts her every day. And then there's this. Despite being fully exonerated, which means completely cleared of the murder of Meredith Kercher, there are still legions of haters around the world who still believe that Amanda Knox is guilty. Why is that? What is it about Amanda Knox that so many people are so hell bent on hating? And what is it about the truth that they simply refuse to accept? Let me take you back through the timeline and lay out the facts of the case. Perugia, Italy. November 2, 2007. It is a picturesque town nestled in the Umbrian hills. It really is what postcards are made of. But that morning, the scene inside a student flat was more like a hellscape. Meredith Kercher, 21 years old, a British exchange student, was found dead in her bedroom. She was half naked, covered with a duvet. Her throat had been slashed. There were signs of a break in, or perhaps a staged break in. Meredith's bra had been cut from her body. Her phone and her rent money were both missing. The apartment showed signs of a struggle. Blood in the bathroom sink, a footprint on the bath mat, and a window that had been shattered from the inside. Amanda Knox, Meredith's roommate, was the first to raise the alarm. She told police that she came home to find the front door ajar and droplets of blood in the bathroom. By noon, police had cordoned off the scene, and within days, Amanda Knox was no longer a witness. Amanda was a suspect. She initially told police that she'd spent the night at her boyfriend's apartment, a young Italian man named Raffaele Solechito. But on November 5, under what she described as Hours and hours of overnight interrogation without a lawyer or without an Italian interpreter. Amanda signed a handwritten statement placing herself at the crime scene and accusing someone else. She named Patrick Lumumba, her boss. At a local bar, she wrote, quote, I met Patrick. We went to my house. I heard Meredith screaming, end quote. But Lumumba had a rock solid alibi. Security footage and witnesses placed him at the bar all night. He was released, and Amanda stayed locked up. She later claimed that confession was coerced and that she had been slapped, screamed at, and denied basic rights. But by then, the damage was done. Prosecutors also alleged that there was physical evidence of Amanda's involvement. The knife. Police seized a large kitchen knife from Solecito's apartment. On the handle, Amanda's DNA. On the blade, what authorities claimed was a trace of Meredith's DNA. The bra clasp. It was found where Meredith's body had been, but it was found long after the murder, and it tested positive for Sollecito's DNA. The footprint, a bloody footprint, was processed on the bath mat, and it was originally attributed to Sollechito. And not only that, but prosecutors pointed to Amanda's behavior as proof of her guilt. She was seen outside the crime scene in a now infamous video, kissing Celegito. She bought red lingerie. The day after the murder, she did a cartwheel at the police station. And she wrote in her prison diary that she'd had, quote, seven lovers, which the media interpreted as moral depravity. To Italian prosecutor Giuliano Minini, this was motive. He argued that the murder happened during a sex game gone wrong, end quote. He said Amanda wanted to involve Meredith, but that Meredith had refused and that things had escalated. But there was zero physical evidence to support that theory. And as it turned out, the physical evidence in the case about the knife, the bra clasp, and the footprint, that was seriously flawed. Let's start with the knife with Amanda's DNA on it. There was a problem. The sample was so minuscule, it could have been contaminated. And the bra clasp? It had been kicked around the crime scene, picked up with dirty gloves, and stored improperly. Even prosecution experts admitted it was probably contaminated. And that footprint on the bath mat? A later analysis showed that the bloody footprint on the bath mat that actually matched Rudy Guidy, a known burglar whose bloody handprint was also found on a pillow beneath Meredith's body. Well, that should have been the end of it, right? No, no, not by a long shot. Amanda had been given a nickname as a young soccer player. She was known by her friends as Foxy Knoxy. And that name took on a life of its own. In the tabloids associated with this killing, British and Italian media ran stories about orgies and devil worship and more. The coverage was lurid and often completely fabricated. Given all that, perhaps it was not surprising that in 2009, Amanda Knox and Rafaele Solechito were convicted of murder, of sexual assault, and of simulating a burglary. Amanda was sentenced to 26 years in an Italian prison. Meanwhile, Rudy Gaidi, whose DNA was literally everywhere, was tied separately in a fast track print proceeding. He was convicted and sentenced to 30 years later, reduced to 16 years. And guess how many he served? 13. He was released in 2021. But Amanda, her case did not end there. In 2011, an appeals court ordered independent forensic experts to re examine the evidence. Their conclusion? The DNA on the knife and bra clasp was scientifically unsound. Amanda and Raffaele were acquitted and were released, but not before spending four years locked up in an Italian prison. But unlike the American system, Italy's legal system allows for multiple appeals for prosecutors. Yeah, double jeopardy. Not a thing there. In 2013, the acquittal was overturned, and in 2014, Amanda and Rafaele were convicted again. And then finally, in 2015, eight years after Meredith's murder, the Italian Supreme Court issued a definitive ruling. Amanda Knox and Raffaele Solechito were completely innocent. Let me repeat. Amanda Knox and Rafaele Solechito were innocent of the murder of Meredith Kercher. The court cited, quote, stunning flaws in the investigation and, quote, an absolute lack of evidence. But long after the courtroom doors closed, the stigma that never went away, Amanda was branded a liar, a temptress, a killer, a murderer. And to add insult to injury, the Italian courts went after her again for slander. Yes, slander again. Unlike in the American system, the Italians were able to charge Amanda with slander for suggesting to police during her interrogations that maybe they should look at her boss, the bar owner, as a possible suspect. And the fight over that charge dragged on for years. And ultimately, the High court in Italy let it stick. And slander is a felony in Italy. But even after a definitive ruling of innocence in the actual murder, Amanda's name is still synonymous with one of the most sensational murder cases in modern memory. And some people still believe that Amanda's guilty, that she did it, even though the courts have said she didn't. Amanda, though, for her part, did not retreat. She did not disappear. She has been speaking out ever since about media accountability, about wrongful convictions, about how trauma lingers long After Freedom, she hosts the podcast Labyrinths. She's been the author of the memoir Waiting to Be Heard, a New York Times bestseller. And now she's written a brand new book called My Search for Meaning. And joining me now is Amanda Knox. Amanda, it's good to see you. This is such a lame question, but it really is an important one. How are you?
- [13:52]
Amanda Knox
You know, I slept very well last night. The kids did not kick me in the face. I've. You know, I've been. I've been able to rest, which is really great. I've come home from the book tour in a big way. I mean, it's not quite done, but the big part of it is done. I've been able to sleep. I've been able to go meditate at my zendo. And so I'm feeling a little more grounded.
- [14:13]
Ashley Banfield
And, you know, speaking of the book tour, this is your second book. You know, look, the haters are out there. They will always be out there. I'm gonna dig into that big time. But I feel like there's something's changed from book one and your book tour to this tour tour. Walk me through the mood out there and the vibe.
- [14:34]
Amanda Knox
Well, it helps. Not being on trial for murder. That'll do it. So, I mean, the fact that when my first book came out, it was literally on the heels of me having my acquittal overturned and I was being put on trial again, and I was very much sort of suddenly facing potential extradition, like it was. It was an ordeal. And this book is obviously very different than my first book because it's not about setting the record straight. It's not about talking about the case. It's really about looking at the ripple effects of, okay, a man broke into my house and raped and murdered my roommate. How has that had a huge ripple effect in my life? And how I've. How have I been carrying my grief along the way as I've been attempting to reintegrate into the world and rediscover for myself what it means to. To be free, acknowledging that I'm never going to escape the fact that I'm the girl accused of murder. And so it's a very. I'm. I personally am in a very different place. I'm no longer, you know, tirelessly working to convince every person I can that I'm innocent. Like, I'm beyond that. And at the same time, I'm still, you know, I'm. I'm still battling injustice in my life as it comes around. But I'm coming from a Very different emotional and spiritual place.
- [15:55]
Ashley Banfield
There's a couple injustices here. There's so many more than a couple. But the fact that the Internet just tore you to ribbons, you were still a person who is the victim of a crime. And I feel like the Internet seized on you and said, well, she didn't even care. She had no emotion and all the rest. Did you even have time to care and to grieve and to freak out? As a young 20 something who'd just been sort of at the center of a horrifying, bloody murder in her home? Did you even have time to process any of that? And is that maybe part of the reason that maybe you didn't and people blamed you for it?
- [16:42]
Amanda Knox
You know, that's a really great question because I feel like I was utterly unprepared to feel, to encounter this extremely horrific tragedy that suddenly just plopped itself into my life. When, you know, Meredith's body was discovered. I did not see her body. I did not witness her body. So I was overhearing a bunch of people screaming in Italian and trying to piece together from what little words I was able to glean what was really happening, what was going on. And it wasn't really, until I actually got to the police office that it was really spelled out for me. There was a body in Meredith's room. We know it is Meredith. We know she's been murdered. She was slaughtered in this horrific way. There was blood everywhere. Like, I didn't fully comprehend what was happening until I got to the police station. And even then, like, it took. I. I was going through waves of emotion in those early days where I would just be in utter shock. I would be almost. At times, I would be almost giddy because I was just overwhelmed with emotion and. And like, oh, my God, I'm alive. And, oh my God, like, like that kind of feeling.
- [17:49]
Ashley Banfield
It wasn't me. I wasn't the target.
- [17:51]
Amanda Knox
I wasn't me. I didn't get murdered, you know, or there's a murder still out there. Are they targeting the people in our house? Like, I had no idea. And then, you know, I think people forget that actually. I very, very, I guess famously, or not so famously, had a breakdown, like a very big emotional breakdown when the police took me back to my house. So, you know, I was. My house was turned into a crime scene. I finally was brought to the police station, and then a few days later, they brought me back in to, like, look through a knife drawer to see if there were any knives missing. And it was just the sudden Like, I was hit in that moment with this sudden realization of, like, oh, my God. They're asking me, like, as I'm, like, looking through this knife drawer, I, I, they're asking me to look for the murder weapon. And like, it just hit me in this, like, visceral way, like, oh, my God, this thing happened to Meredith and I just, I lost it. I was crying hysterically. I was, I was hyperventilating. They, they pulled me out of the house because I was freaking out. But, like, when you look back on the footage of this case and the way that they talked about this case, no one ever points to that moment as my reaction to this terrible tragedy. They point to a moment where I'm embracing my boyfriend and he, he gives me a few kisses to comfort me. They point to, you know, the testimony of Meredith's British friends who say that I seemed cold and withdrawn or else, you know, cuddling my boyfriend in the police station. And I feel like looking back on that time, people do not really. They were very ungenerous towards a very young, inexperienced girl who was experiencing a lot of emotions in those early days, trying to piece together what had happened and trying to figure out what to do. So I think there's a lot of cherry picking to find fault in me instead of acknowledging the full scope of what my experience was in that moment.
- [19:53]
Ashley Banfield
And the headlines often, look, I work in the media. I've worked in the media for 37 years. The headlines will often attach to an image or to a video, and it doesn't matter how unrepresentative that image or video is of the entire picture. That seems to be the focus. That's where the headline goes. And as we all know, most people read a headline and see a picture and they don't read the article. Not to suggest that the article would be a whole lot better anyway. How old were you? 23.
- [20:21]
Amanda Knox
I was 24. Oh, God, I was just 20.
- [20:24]
Ashley Banfield
20.
- [20:25]
Amanda Knox
I had just turned 20.
- [20:28]
Ashley Banfield
So my son is turning 20.
- [20:31]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. So you know how idiotic we all are at 20. I feel like if we really just be honest with ourselves of, like, how inexperienced, especially, you know, someone like me who had never been through any traumatic experience in my life. I had always had a very blessed life. A loving, supportive family. Tragedy was not something that I ever encountered. And so when this occurred, it was absolutely a shock to my system. And I went through all those emotions. Denial, you know, gratitude at being alive, anger, you know, confusion. I was experiencing all of those things. And then, of course, I was Taking my cue from the. From the police of what to do. And I did exactly as they. As they told me to do.
- [21:14]
Ashley Banfield
As you would at 20.
- [21:16]
Amanda Knox
As you would.
- [21:16]
Ashley Banfield
As you would.
- [21:17]
Amanda Knox
As someone who had been raised to respect and obey police officers. I have military in my family. Like, that is just something that I automatically did. And it is one of my greatest regrets that, like, to this day, I feel uncomfortable around law enforcement. Not because I'm. I'm. I don't think that law enforcement is an important thing. Like, we absolutely need law enforcement. We need, you know, people to protect us and hold, you know, people who commit crimes accountable for those crimes. But I just can't help it. Like, I came. I called the police. I came to them as a indirect victim of this crime that happened to Meredith, as a victim of someone who broke into my house, and I was betrayed by the police.
- [22:00]
Ashley Banfield
You have scars, you know, like PTSD about that, understandably. Will you get over that? Will you be ever, ever able to get over that or get past that? Especially when you are in America, do you feel it's different at home than it was there?
- [22:17]
Amanda Knox
You know, this was kind of put to the test a little bit recently. A few months ago, I was in LA for work and I was staying at a friend's house, and it was my husband. My two kids were there. Our friends were not in town, so we were just hanging out at their house. And while we were there, in the middle of the night, someone broke into the house.
- [22:38]
Ashley Banfield
Stop it.
- [22:39]
Amanda Knox
I'm telling you the absolute truth. So someone broke into the house. I broke the front door through the deadbolt, was screaming their head off, and my husband had to go downstairs to confront this person. And as he left the room, the bedroom, I'm clutching my, you know, screaming babies, wondering if I'm going to have to jump out of a second story window with them and, like, run away. Like, I have no idea who has broken into this house. He's screaming at the top of his lungs. My husband walks out of the room in his underwear to confront this intruder, and all he says is, call the police. And I had a moment of doubt. I was like, should I call the police or shouldn't I? Should I just jump out of a window with my toddler and my infant son, or should I call? Like, I didn't know. And. And, you know, ultimately I did. And the police arrived, and I just had this surreal experience of watching them be so sweet and kind to my daughter, giving her a little police badge sticker, and feeling utterly terrified of Them.
- [23:47]
Ashley Banfield
At the same time.
- [23:48]
Amanda Knox
At the same time.
- [23:50]
Ashley Banfield
What happened, by the way? I mean, I'm still very severe. Like, your husband's in his underwear. There's a man who's broken into the front door. What happened?
- [23:58]
Amanda Knox
Well, what happened is my husband confronted this intruder. He grabbed a broom on his way down the stairs and was, you know, using that between him and the person we actually knew where there was some pepper spray hidden. But the guy, the intruder, was right underneath where we had hidden the pepper spray. So he was just trying to, like, push him out of the house with this broom. And he was someone who was clearly not mentally all there. He was screaming someone's name who didn't live there. And so this was.
- [24:28]
Ashley Banfield
This was random.
- [24:29]
Amanda Knox
This is a. This is a random person who clearly was mentally ill, had broken in the door of our friend's house and was just mentally ill. But we had no idea. We did not know. And my husband didn't know if this man was, you know, had a weapon on him. Like, I was terrified that my husband had just walked down the stairs to his death, and I was gonna have to barricade the door to protect my. My children. Like, I had no idea. And. And the. Even the fact that I questioned whether I should call the police is one of those ways that, like, I'm still sort of feeling those ripple effects of that. That original crime that happened when I was 20 years old to my friend who I. I lived with. You know, obviously, it's.
- [25:17]
Ashley Banfield
It's apples and oranges, but it is absolutely remarkable that you had to go through that. P.S. how about just the idea that your husband is going downstairs and God forbid something happened to him, and now you're alone in the home and the police are coming to question you. I mean, all. I can't imagine all the thoughts, oh, I went.
- [25:34]
Amanda Knox
I thought that. I absolutely thought. I mean, one of the jokes that I say. And again, like, people make say that I'm not allowed to joke about things, but one of the things that I joke about is how no one is allowed to die around me because everyone will just blame me. And. And. But I seriously had that thought. Like, if. If I call the police and this guy murders my husband, are they going to think it's me? Is the world going to think it's me? Even if it's obviously not me, they're still going to have a question like, oh, how convenient, someone close to Amanda, like, gets murdered. Like, it's just a horrible thing to live with knowing that that's how it Is.
- [26:11]
Ashley Banfield
I mean, clearly, this is a. This is a terrible crime. There's probably a case. Are you going to have to be a witness and go on a witness stand about this case?
- [26:20]
Amanda Knox
Thankfully not, because I never saw this person's face. My husband was called, though, and ultimately this person went not to criminal court, but to mental health court, which was, I think, was appropriate. So there he is being. He's. He's. He's under supervision. He's being, you know, and once he is deemed fit to stand trial, he will then stand trial, and then my husband will likely be called back in as a witness.
- [26:47]
Ashley Banfield
And you don't think you'll have to.
- [26:49]
Amanda Knox
I. They did not call me because I, I was just upstairs and I don't have much to contribute to the conversation other than to say that I was horrifically terrified.
- [26:59]
Ashley Banfield
Well, and, you know, I just. I'm just, you know, I leap ahead there. Let's just say there is a trial and you are brought into it, and you have to arrive at a courthouse and go into a courtroom and get up on a witness stand. I mean, the. What would that be like for you, having all of this in your DNA and the PTSD that you have? Would you be able to do this?
- [27:25]
Amanda Knox
I think what might happen is that I would go back into survival mode where this is. You know, I talk about this in my book, about how, like, there was this period of time in prison where I just sort of was. I didn't feel all of the feelings. I was very numb to all of the feelings. So I will show up. Like, I will endure, but I'm going to then face the trauma consequences of that once I'm now safely out of the traumatic situation. So, yeah, like, going back into a courtroom, not something that I relish the thought of. And I, you know, I've been back in a courtroom before, and it was very. I learned from that experience that I have really un.
- [28:14]
Ashley Banfield
Like, unresolved.
- [28:16]
Amanda Knox
Unresolved. Like, I do not just feel comfortable. It's. It's not just a place for me. The. The institution of law itself is a very intimidating space for me. And I feel very much. I feel very little and very like a, Like a hurt animal. Like. Like. Like any dog. Any dog who's been kicked by, you know, a man too many times and now hates all men like men. I, I have. I have this visceral towards the institution of. Of the law that I just don't like. I don't like it because I understand how important of an institution it is, how fundamental of an institution. It is. It's already a lot for me to show up at. I. I occasionally will go to the Washington state legislature to testify to a committee and try to get laws changed in favor, you know, of common sense practices that would make wrongful convictions less of a thing, like banning police deception, you know, recording interrogations, all of these kinds of things. And even that is really, really intimidating for me because it has this. The decorum of it is very reminiscent of a court of law, and I just feel very uncomfortable.
- [29:33]
Ashley Banfield
Well, get your headspaces back where you were. The reason you're doing that work is because of what you went through. And so naturally, that is part of the conversation. So you're, you know, you're not with your kids and at a park and having fun. You're back in the reality of hell and what the hell brings and the wrath after. And speaking of all of that, what is it like, you know, to be you? Because you can't shake all that? That's you, right? You told me before you grew up in Italy, you grew up in a prison. That is part of your DNA. All of those lessons learned. You can't shake that. For better or for worse. But what is it like to sort of live as you?
- [30:13]
Amanda Knox
Well, and I think the important thing is you can't shake it. I think a lot of people who have been through traumatic experiences, whether, you know, through the criminal justice system or through any other kind of experience, there is this sense of feeling like they have to run away from their victimhood. They have to deny their victimhood. They don't want to be defined by their victimhood. And so one reaction is to just be like, you know it. I don't care. It doesn't impact me. I'm not hurt by this.
- [30:40]
Ashley Banfield
I'm moving on.
- [30:41]
Amanda Knox
I'm moving on. Deny, deny, deny. And I think that that is not a very honest or functional response. I think you really do have to. You have to grieve the life that you had before this traumatic thing happened to you. You have to grieve the person who you would have been had this life or this tragic thing had hadn't happened to you. You have to really embrace the fact, not just accept, but embrace the fact that this is your life and this tragedy is a part of it. And I feel like a lot of people are resistant to that because they feel like it's very limiting, like, oh, now I'm a victim. Like, that's it. That's all who. That's all I am. And I think One of the big messages of my book is, no, you are not. You are not. You know, you're not limited to the worst thing that's ever happened to you. You are informed by it, though. And you can decide then with that information that you now have what you're going to do with it. You can use that box that the tragedy tried to encapsulate you in, and you can stand on top of it and use it as a platform to share your own message, whatever that may be. And I feel like now I'm very comfortable with that. But it's taken me so long to arrive at a place of being comfortable with it. And really, like, becoming a moment was a huge factor in pushing me to really address this, because I struggled with it for years. I struggled with survivor's guilt. I struggled with the fact that my identity is, you know, inextricably linked with the death of my friend and that people hold me and my life to account as a comparison to what happened to her. And I'm sort of made to feel guilty for existing and being alive and being able to live all of that. I felt like I needed to figure out before I gave birth to a daughter and then passed that trauma on to her through the placenta. Like, I was very, very scared about having, like, somehow consciously or unconsciously passing on some unresolved trauma onto her.
- [32:43]
Ashley Banfield
Do you think it's interesting when you said I needed to grieve who I was before the murder? There's Amanda Knox, you know, sheltered and happy and supported in life and heading to do, you know, schoolwork and education, and suddenly, you know, a complete U turn. Do you ever think about who you would be now? And this is a weird question. Do you think you would be a better version of who you are now? Or do you think because of everything you've been through, the labyrinths of hell that you have navigated, you are so much more knowledgeable. You are so much more articulate. You are so much more empathetic. You are all the things that most of us will never be because we will never walk in those shoes.
- [33:29]
Amanda Knox
Well, I mean, that's one of the weird ways that I feel lucky, is that I do feel like I'm a better person for having gone through this experience. I don't know who I would have been. I imagine I would have been a more superficial person just because I would not have experienced the depths of the human condition that I was forced to experience and endure for so long. Um, so I feel like I. I have a very clear Sense of direction, a very clear sense of purpose and a really grounded sense of connection to others that, you know, I. I always was an empathetic person. I was always a smart person. I always, you know, loved to make friends with the underdog in the room. That was always something that was a part of me. And so in a way, I am. I am the same person. I'm still the silly, you know, Harry Potter loving nerd who gets dressed up, you know, like, I'm still that person. And in a way, I'm really happy that I'm still that person. There's just this, like, tinge of. Of sadness and darkness that belongs to me now that I am grateful for because it allows me to. To reach people and to make a difference in people's lives in a way that I don't think that I would have been capable before.
- [34:53]
Ashley Banfield
I feel like I'm better as an overall human being based on the boots that have been taken to me. I don't think if I'd been dancing along merrily on some path that I would have really absorbed many of the lessons along the way. I think they would have just flown by like a car window, you know, But I sometimes wonder, was that worth it? You know, And I always come back to you. Yes, yes, it's worth it. I just wish it was easier.
- [35:18]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. But also, I feel like you and I are very lucky to have the kind of personalities where we can see the opportunity and the challenge and we can discover what is useful in. In what we have suffered. Some people get the boots that get taken to them really bury them. I met a lot of women in prison who were buried by the traumas that they endured. And so it's. It's not to say that I wish upon anyone the inevitable, you know, bad things that are going to happen to them. I think I found myself to be in a very lucky position to be able to grow through my experience and not just in spite of it. I really do think that some of us are better situated to be resilient than others. And I. So, yeah.
- [36:12]
Ashley Banfield
Is it grit? Is it? Because, you know, grit is like the magic word of the last 15 years. Those who have grit will be able to succeed because they can take the punches and make those punches into scar tissue and, you know, prevail at all the other tough projects that lay ahead. Do you think that you have some sort of. I think I do. I really do. I think I have a crazy amount of grit and I employ it minute to minute in my day. Do you think that's what it is with you, that you could withstand the things that have come your way.
- [36:47]
Amanda Knox
I mean, grit, I think is a very important ingredient. And I do actually thank my really tough soccer coach from back in the day who would, you know, run us until somebody threw up, like really, you know, pushed us and challenged us to hurt in order to achieve. And so I learned from a young age that like, things don't always come easy. And also if you work really hard and you get through the pain, you can arrive at a place where some, you know, you grow as a, you grow as a person. And so I think I knew that intuitively, deep down. It's scary though, when you don't know that deep down and you're just encountering something really overwhelming and painful and you don't know what impact, impact it's going to have on you. And it can seem, you know, I've actually had a really great conversation with Rafaeli about this recently. We were on Zoom. He had his birthday just a few days ago and we were talking about, you know, how do you, how do you make sense of all the pain? How do you make sense of all the anger? Does it go anywhere? Does it lead to anything? And I, you know, it really is up to you. Like, it is your pain, it is your anger, and are you solely informed by it or are you motivated by it? Are you debilitated by it like that? Those are all reactions that you are having to just the experience of those emotions.
- [38:16]
Ashley Banfield
He's an amazing guy, by the way. I've gotten to know him and I was so gently delighted by his self effacing, kind, very sober approach to everything that's happened to him and everything that lay ahead. And I thought, wow, you guys are really well suited to be friends because A, you have a shared experience that no one will ever understand but you and B, he seems to have done the same thing that you've done. Just, he's made, he's made it a positive in his life and he's really.
- [38:51]
Amanda Knox
Forged ahead and he, you know, he's interesting because he is more of a protector and a fighter than I am. Like I'm, I'm a lover. He's, he's a, he's also, you know, a very romantic person, but ultimately he, I think he expresses himself a little bit differently than me in that he is always in this protector mode. Like right now he's really, he, he's a vegan and he is posting a lot about like trying to protect animals from harm because it's coming from that place of, like, I know what it feels like to have lived a life in a cage. I know what it feels like to be, you know, devoid of purpose. And he sees that in the experiences of animals who are in the food industry. And so he is now, like, fighting as a, you know, this activist. If you go on his Instagram, like, warning, there's quite a few PETA videos. But, you know, like, it's. I think it's interesting because, like, my approach is more about trying to make connections and trying to find common understanding, even between people who are in conflict and who are in disagreement.
- [40:00]
Ashley Banfield
Well, I was, like I said, really delighted to talk to him and know that you guys are still in contact. Is it a regular contact? Is it one of those things on birthdays and Christmas? Like, what is your connection to him? And is there a vestige of doom associated sometimes? Because again, you are going back to that place that was very, very painful in your life.
- [40:21]
Amanda Knox
Well, you know, for a long time we didn't have a lot of contact, I think, because we sort of associated. Especially me. I was afraid, well, to be honest, like, I thought that maybe he might resent have resented me because. And he didn't. Like, this was just me in my head. But, like, you know, I was lucky to have met Rafaele. If I hadn't met Rafaele, like, five days before the crime occurred, I would have been at home and I would have been raped and murdered too. So for me, meeting Rafaele was a very lucky happenstance. It was a very unlucky thing for him to have met me though, because if he hadn't met me, then he wouldn't have been my alibi and he wouldn't have been drawn into this murder case that he had absolutely nothing to do with. So I, like, I had that in my head. And especially, you know, considering how the media really focused on me instead of him, how it was just sort of taken for granted that he had no agency of his own and he would just do whatever the hell I said to him. Even though, like, he, he. His is. He is his own person. He has honor, he has morals, he has his own motivations in life. He doesn't just do whatever a girlfriend of five days tells him to do. Like, that was just one of those assumptions of the trial that he was Mr. Nobody with no agency of his own. Like, I felt really sad that, like, our relationship was. Was reduced, twisted and reduced to something like that. And I, I felt like maybe he wanted to have to, like, define himself outside of any kind of relationship with me because of how he had been treated by the media for years at that point in relation to me. But of course I was just projecting onto him my own fears and insecurities. And we, you know, we've talked over the years, but like, we've, I think we've really connect, reconnected more recently to just like have a more regular, you know, discussion between the two of us and really just like talk, talk. You know, I visited, obviously I visited him when I went back to Italy to visit my prosecutor and, and go to Gubywas, like, spend some actual quality time with him. And that's meant a lot because we both went through this horrific ordeal and we're both still carrying the weight of that experience. And I think in many ways he is still working to find his freedom. And I, and I know that he's well on his way, but like, he's still holding on to a lot of pain.
- [43:10]
Ashley Banfield
I'm going to talk about that meeting with your prosecutor in a hot minute, but I'm still curious about that. When you first, when you went back to Italy and you saw Raffaella, what was that initial greeting like?
- [43:28]
Amanda Knox
Well, it was wonderful. So he came to visit. I was hiding out in this, you know, hiding place outside of the city. And he drove up, he was dressed in his work clothes, so, you know, very, very sharp looking. And I immediately was just like, oh yeah, there's that guy I had a crush on all those years ago. Like, here's the man version of this guy I had a crush on. Like a legit crush on. Here's his, like, handsome, you know, great looking guy. And he then, you know, meets my husband, he meets my children or my, my daughter. At this point, my, my son hadn't been born yet. And I don't know, we just immediately fell into a sense of familiarity. He immediately was very sweet with my kids. We, we had dinner, we had wine. I. We called his dad on the phone and chatted with him. And then we made plans to go to Gubbio, which is so fun. Trivia fact for those who are super familiar with the case. The night that, you know, or the morning that we discovered Meredith's body, I had actually made. I was on my way, I was just going home really quickly to take a shower and change my clothes so that me and Rafaela could go on this romantic weekend to a nearby town called Gubbio that's famous for its truffles. And obviously that romantic trip never transpired. And so we decided that we would finally, 15 years later, go on our little trip to Gubbio. And it was bittersweet because it was not the romantic weekend getaway that we had originally intended. No.
- [45:09]
Ashley Banfield
You had a husband and a child with you.
- [45:11]
Amanda Knox
I had a husband and a child with me at the time. So here he is, you know, pushing the stroller with my daughter in Gubbio.
- [45:18]
Ashley Banfield
But still, that is such a priceless little anecdote. Have you ever told that before?
- [45:25]
Amanda Knox
Just about seeing him for the first.
- [45:27]
Ashley Banfield
Time, doing this Gubbio trip 15 years later.
- [45:30]
Amanda Knox
I write about it in the book.
- [45:31]
Ashley Banfield
So it's crazy just to think that you decided, well, let's just do that trip anyway.
- [45:37]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. And I loved that he did not question it. He was just like, yes, finally we're gonna go on our trip to Gubbio. And I'm so glad we did because there was a feeling of coming full circle, really needing to, like, tie up loose ends and find some sense of closure. And my husband and my mantra going back into Italy was make good memories. Because here I was associating Italy with all of this fear and dread and anger. But I knew that that wasn't just, just what Italy was. Italy was a beautiful country. It's a place where beautiful things and beautiful people were. And I just wanted to have a more well rounded place experience of Italy as a country. And so going on that Gubbio trip was a part of that, that purpose of making good memories and not allowing a place to be also defined by the worst thing that had ever happened there.
- [46:36]
Ashley Banfield
One of the other things you did on that trip was you went back to the house where the crime happened. Tell me about the decision making in doing that. And then also what it was like when you arrived, the moment that you actually arrived.
- [46:54]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, super nerve wracking because going into Perugia was, you know, the last time that I had been physically there. The. There were crowds chanting, shame, shame, shame. After I was being. After I was acquitted and I was, you know, raced out of the, out of the city.
- [47:15]
Ashley Banfield
Let's just revisit that for a hot minute. Shame, shame, shame. After you were acquitted.
- [47:22]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [47:22]
Ashley Banfield
Definition of acquitted. She's not guilty. And still the crowd screamed shame.
- [47:28]
Amanda Knox
Yes. They were angry at the judges for acquitting me. So the last time I was there, I was screamed at by a horde of very malignant people. And, you know, since I had come out like this one time, I. I posted a picture of myself saying like, welcome home, you know, Ryan, to another wrongly convicted person. And people then took this Picture that I had taken and wrote things like, oh, I guess, no, I had written Siamo innocenti, so we are innocent. I had written on the piece of paper, and people from Perugia had copycatted that image and just said, perugia, vi odia. Perugia hates you. So in my mind, I'm feeling like of all places in the world, I am most hated, universal, like, universally in Perugia. And the idea of going back to Perugia was very scary. I didn't know how. I didn't want. I did not want to be seen. But at the same time, I was feeling drawn to go back to this place where my life had just been completely upturned, like, you know, turned upside down. And I wanted to grieve. I wanted to grieve Meredith. I wanted to grieve the. The me. The part of me that did not survive my. My study abroad experience. And. And I think the thing that I came away with from, you know, approaching those same places, you know, we're driving through Perugia, and suddenly here's, you know, here's the university that I went to, and here's the coffee shop that I got coffee at all the time, and there's the bookstore that I always went to. And then here we are. Here's. Here's the house. And, you know, somebody else was living in it. There was, you know, laundry hanging up in, you know, drying in the breeze. It was a beautiful sunny day, and I was just struck by how it was just a place. It was just a place. It was a place where someone was living now. It was a place where I had once lived. It was a place where I had joyful experiences and tragic experiences. And isn't that every place. Every place is potentially the scene of someone's best experiences and worst nightmare? And so I think that was really important for me just to, like, really put into perspective that also this was just a place, and that was okay.
- [50:03]
Ashley Banfield
And so getting that sort of logged appropriately in your mind, there have to be a lot of boxes that you still want to check, or do you feel as though you have really put everything into perspective the way you need it, and you're in, for lack of a better description, I'll quote Taylor Swift. A different era.
- [50:26]
Amanda Knox
I don't think I'm in a different era. I mean, so I will say that there are some boxes that I absolutely still want to check. Like, one is visiting Meredith's grave. I have never been able to do that. I've always wanted the blessing of her family in order to go do that. Because I know that she primarily belongs to them before she belongs to me. And so I don't know if I'm ever going to have that opportunity. But being able to, like, actually go and see where she is resting and, you know, say goodbye to her would be really nice.
- [51:00]
Ashley Banfield
And what about her family? What, like, are they in the lump of everyone else who just can't get past the facts? And are they not accepting this exoneration, this complete clearing of guilt?
- [51:15]
Amanda Knox
I think that they, you know, it would have been better if the Italian justice system had. Did just that, which is completely clear me of guilt, but it did not. It left a lot of unanswered questions, one of which is, you know, the person who actually committed this crime, he was definitively found guilty in a separate trial, but he was found guilty of committing the crime with others. And so the ultimate, you know, outcome in this case is one person of supposed others was found guilty of this crime and served time for it, but he was never found guilty of everything that transpired, which included, you know, stealing her belongings, breaking into the house. Like, all of these things were part of the crime itself. And he was not held fully accountable for his crimes. Even in my exoneration, the. The. The courts decided that they're, you know, they're. They left open the possibility that I could have been physically present when the crime occurred, even though I did not participate in it, which is just absurd. But ultimately, I think it comes down to them not wanting to admit that the. The full scope of the fault of the police and the prosecution and sort of throwing them a bone while also scolding them for not doing their job. So I understand that, like, they are left in a lurch. I don't think that the Italian justice system really did justice for them, and it didn't give them a sense of closure. It didn't give them a sense of having all the answers. And I think also, to a big extent, the media really warped what this case was about. Like, the truth of what happened to Meredith got subsumed by the scandal around Amanda Knox and the story of women hating women and women being pitted against each other like that. That was a story that really was sticky. And I think people to this day, and I think Meredith's family to this day thinks that they never got all of the answers and that I am somehow involved, even if it can't be proved that I had anything to do with it.
- [53:29]
Ashley Banfield
So. Well, this is so frustrating in a million ways, because who am I to speak here? And primarily because you and I have talked about your new relationship with this prosecutor. You write in the book about going to meet with him and ask the questions. What was it about me that made you see the worst in me? What was it about me that made the Italian people see the worst in me and the Americans and the world audience that were glomming onto this story. And you told me that he has done a complete about face on you and has said the words, and I'll paraphrase, the person he's come to know now in having a prolonged conversation and relationship with you, is a person he wouldn't prosecute today, but would he consider, call it a bone, talking to the Kercher family about that and perhaps squaring up with the Kercher family, what he truly believes about you to help them perhaps get to the same place where he is.
- [54:40]
Amanda Knox
Great question, and one that I have specifically posed to him because I very. I've never sugarcoated anything with Giuliano. I've always been very explicit with him about how he was wrong about me, how it's had devastating consequences for me, how I am prevented from having a relationship with Meredith's family because of the case that he built against me. And one of the ways that he could be a healing presence in my life, and he does say he wants to be a healing presence in my life, is if he were to admit to the Kirchers what he has admitted to me in private. And I want to be very careful here, because when I wrote my book, I shared a lot about what we have discussed in our correspondence and what we discussed in our meeting. I have not shared everything specifically because he is not read. Like what he tells me is that he, there are things that he is willing to talk to me about that he's not willing to say publicly or to talk publicly about specifically because he doesn't trust. He doesn't trust media and he doesn't trust the general public to understand how his perspective has evolved in time. And he is really sort of feeling like the sword of Damocles is hanging over him if he should ever contradict anything that he claimed during the trial. And so as a prosecutor, as a public official, he feels like he is bound to not just protect his own image, but also to protect the institution of the law. And this, these are all reasons why he tells me that this specific request is not tenable for him at this time. All that to say is that a cop out? Maybe. Is that too little, too late? Maybe. Is that a person in evolution? Maybe I don't know. But I have to be okay with wherever he is in his life and I can't have my own well being depend upon him fully embracing what the right thing to do is.
- [57:14]
Ashley Banfield
Wow. I don't even know what to say about that. What does it mean when he says at this time?
- [57:23]
Amanda Knox
Well, I mean, what it says to me is that, I mean, I'm saying he's not ready at this time. Like he's saying that he can't. And I'm saying we'll see.
- [57:38]
Ashley Banfield
Okay.
- [57:39]
Amanda Knox
Because, you know, he has said things to me that he wouldn't have said years ago and.
- [57:46]
Ashley Banfield
Yeah. Like I wouldn't prosecute you today because I got to know you. How about that? You know?
- [57:52]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. Yeah. And admitting that I'm not the person that he thought he was prosecuting and admitting that there he could have made a mistake. Like, he has admitted all of these things to me and, and has also admitted them in, in this way publicly, because he read my book before it was published and gave me his blessing to publish what I did. And so. Which is to say that I didn't reveal everything that I could have possibly revealed out of respect for.
- [58:25]
Ashley Banfield
For, well, the relationship.
- [58:27]
Amanda Knox
The relationship and where he is at on a human level.
- [58:32]
Ashley Banfield
Can I ask how is he retired yet?
- [58:34]
Amanda Knox
He is. Yes. And in fact, that was a important part of how we were able to develop a relationship.
- [58:40]
Ashley Banfield
Yeah.
- [58:40]
Amanda Knox
Is he did not feel comfortable meeting with me while he was still in his role as a prosecutor.
- [58:47]
Ashley Banfield
So I don't really get the second part. Like, what exactly would hold you back? You are not bound within the. You're not an officer of the court anymore. You're not bound, bound. You're retired. You can write books, you can, you can spill the secrets. Yeah. So what I'm not sure I'm buying this part of I want to help you heal.
- [59:09]
Amanda Knox
And I'm also not sure I'm buying it in the sense that, like, I can also. I think that when people, if you just pay attention, people reveal themselves to you. And I think that when he's saying I can't, a lot of the times he's saying I won't, I won't. And I'm hearing that and I may not agree with it. And I can tell him, actually, you can and you just won't. But that's also his choice. And it goes back again to, okay, well, his choice is his choice. I can't control him. What do I do in response? Can I be okay with his I won't. And how does that impact our relationship?
- [59:53]
Ashley Banfield
Well, you've done a lot, let me just say. Come on, for God's sake.
- [59:56]
Amanda Knox
You.
- [59:57]
Ashley Banfield
You put in the work. I. I just wonder if, given the fact that you had that reception of shame, shame, shame, all the, you know, the people with the pitchforks, you know, outside the castle, is he fearing that? Is he fearing that if he comes fully clean and absolves you of everything everywhere, including to the Kircher family, that ire will then be turned on him from the people and that that will be his legacy or maybe that his family will suff some way? Like, is that possible?
- [60:25]
Amanda Knox
I mean, I. So what he would say is, and I want to be very clear, he. He has never said to me, I was completely 100% wrong. He has always said, you know, but my. My thinking about this case has evolved, and I understand that, you know, again, the things that I say in the book, which is what I'm allowed to talk about, but I think we can very rationally say that people, you know, a horde would turn against him and. And potentially, you know, because already he has experienced a lot of very painful, like, public responses for his Blowak and Mike in. In the case. He's lost friendships over the fact that he even talked to me. So, like, I think that he's lost friendships. Yes.
- [61:14]
Ashley Banfield
Wow.
- [61:16]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. Yeah, it's.
- [61:19]
Ashley Banfield
That's something, isn't it? You know, and that kind of dovetails into this next. I mean, this is related. It's. It's a real liaison here. But the, like, the haters, the people who will comment. I've released clips of you, of me speaking in the past and just in the last few weeks, and younger people, like, who's a meta Knox? They didn't live through it. They're, you know, maybe 19. And then you'll see a comment saying, oh, she killed a roommate. And it's like, just hold the phone. Who are these people who will not accept fact and court rulings and exonerations? I mean, you seem to be fine with it when someone walks off death row, but not for Amanda.
- [62:04]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, that's a good point, because I do think that there are those out there who just don't really think about it much. They've heard about me in the comments context of a murder trial. And so they just. Their brain very lazily just associates Amanda, murder. Amanda, murder. And. And there's that aspect of it. But you're right, there is also, like, a contingency of people around there who purportedly are interested in. In truth and justice, but for some reason have this, like, negative association with me. And they seem unwilling to consider that I could be, you know, an act. I could be also an innocent person who has gone through a terrible injustice because I don't fit the profile necessarily of who they imagine is that kind. The victim of that kind of injustice, potentially. Like, I've absolutely had people. Good example of this. I was invited to come help with a fundraiser for a. A alternative to prison sort of halfway house kind of situation before. And one of the questions that I received from a. A local reporter was, aren't you taking the. Aren't you, like, sort of stealing the spotlight from a black man who could be telling this story right now? And I was just like, oh, well, one. I think that was kind of racist to sort of say that only black men can talk about prison as if only black men are in prison. But also, I have been in prison and I was invited to be here. And, like, I do not feel any, like, guilt about telling my story to help other people.
- [63:47]
Ashley Banfield
Like, also, you have a platform and a name recognition and things that will actually permeate throughout the media. So that's a great service. And people who maybe aren't known wouldn't get those headlines and that story, that worthy story wouldn't get out. There's a million. There's a million versions of wrong about. About that. But you're right, there are those people. They will be that way. They will find some way to turn something into a negative. I wonder, though, also about you. You're beautiful. You always have been. You were Foxy Knoxy in the press, and people didn't realize that that name was given to you as a soccer player as a kid, not because you were gorgeous. But there's a lot of. There's so much. I mean, this is another hour, right? This conversation about beautiful women must be guilty.
- [64:33]
Amanda Knox
They must be guilt. We must find fault in them. And also they must secretly hate each other. Like, that's the thing. It just wigged me out. Like, about this whole story is like, it's founded upon this principle that, like, beautiful women are constantly in sexual competition with each other and are. And secretly hate each other secretly, not so secretly, and therefore, ergo, sex, murder, orgy. And it's just. It's just awful. It's just awful that, like, I was turned into the. The villain whore, but also that my roommate Meredith was turned into, like, the uptight, judgmental virgin girl, which she was not. And like, women do not just sit in these, like, polar opposites and like, hate each other, you know, like, that's not who we were. And I felt like that was one of the more damaging, like, under, like, undertones, like the secret, like the secret not so secret assumption that was the basis of this trial was just this idea that all women hate each other.
- [65:31]
Ashley Banfield
Well, I love the fact that you and Monica Lewinsky have allied. I mean, I hope I'm not too forward saying I think you've generated a great friendship, but also have teamed up to sort of work on this problem among us where we somehow want to demonize, villainize, and then cannibalize young women. I mean, what was Monica, 21 or 22 in the white House? And somehow she was, she was to blame for all of it. For God's sake, it was president. What the hell was that? Why on earth was it her fault?
- [66:06]
Amanda Knox
Yes, and notoriously, the most, like, charming, like, schmoozy president, like, of course this 23 year old is going to fall in love with him. And then for her to be pitched as like, oh, though, you know, the, the, the home wrecker, the, you know, the woman who. Again, that idea, the woman, it was like Hillary versus Monica instead of, hey, hello, guys. Who is the one who actually cheated on his wife? The dude who is in charge of the country, who lied about it and.
- [66:32]
Ashley Banfield
Who'S, and who's Easy Pickens, you know, Who's Easy Pickens? Young people. I always said back then. And I wrote a letter to Monica back in the 90s when this was all happening. I, I said, I'm so sorry. Like, I'm just so sorry that somehow this is happening to you and this is what people think. Because to me it's crystal clear. I was in my 20s as well, and it was crystal clear that this was a man who was powerful and persuasive and he could have had his way with any of the interns, male or female even, not gay male interns would have fallen and done whatever he asked, you know, And I was very frustrated that nobody could see it from.
- [67:18]
Amanda Knox
That perspective or that she was like, you know, reduced to the sex of it all. When, like, what it really was in her perspective was that she had fallen in love with this man. Like, she was just a naive young girl. She believed he loved her and she believed that he loved her, like, as we would, as we would, because we're dumb and young and, and she got reduced to, you know, Jessica Rabbit stain on her dress and, and a blow job, like a cigar. Like, ugh. Yeah, but that's what she was Reduced to.
- [67:54]
Ashley Banfield
So. So are you guys making headway? Do you think you can make headway? I saw her on Colbert recently, and I love the interview that she gave. I mean, she was so blunt in her terminology, which was great. She said, look, nobody ever even had a term for slut shaming back then. Now we have it. We really didn't talk about bullying unless you were kicking rocks in the schoolyard. Now we have a term for it. Do you feel like you guys are making headway in this whole social experiment of dealing with people who just want to villainize? They want their own personal Hollywood drama in their heads about a target, and then they just go with it?
- [68:31]
Amanda Knox
I think so, because I think both Monica and I have really refused to be cowed and refused to be defined the way that the world has decided to define us. And I think we've both put. Put up a good fight to, like, platform voices who otherwise would be quashed and to try to shift the. The assumptions that are at the basis of all these narratives and. And call them out for what they are. I think that she's been really good at that. I've also been working hard to do that in my own sort of criminal justice or justice kind of way. Criminal justy way. And. And I. And I look to her as a. As truly a model because I. I don't think anyone. There was a manual for anyone for how to be a vilified, canceled woman.
- [69:22]
Ashley Banfield
There still isn't.
- [69:24]
Amanda Knox
And. And how to get out of that.
- [69:26]
Ashley Banfield
There still isn't. You know, but I love the fact that you said Monica brought you. You told me this in. In our conversation on News Nation. You said Monica brought me out of the grave that I was in.
- [69:38]
Amanda Knox
Yep. And showed me that there was a path. So I'm forever grateful to her.
- [69:42]
Ashley Banfield
Well, I am forever grateful for you for not cowering and shrinking and, you know, collapsing, but using all that magic that you have inside you, grit or whatever it is, to rise up and tell these stories and empower people and probably at the same time empowering yourself to just go on and live the best version of you and best self. Thanks for writing the books. Thanks for talking about the experience, and thanks for talking to me. I really appreciate it.
- [70:09]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, thanks, Ashley. Thanks for having me on.
- [70:11]
Ashley Banfield
And you and me and Monica gotta go for drinks.
- [70:13]
Amanda Knox
That would be so fun. I'm gonna text her. Actually, I'll text her right now.
- [70:18]
Ashley Banfield
I'm in. I'm gathering. Canceling anything on my schedule. I'm canceling it for that. Be well Good luck with the rest of the book.
- [70:24]
Amanda Knox
Thanks. Take care.
- [70:25]
Ashley Banfield
You too. I have to say, Amanda did not disappoint. I told you at the top of this that I was so looking forward to this conversation, and I hope you now know why. She's very genuine and she's so authentic and forthcoming. I don't think she's hiding any secrets. I don't get that feeling in the least. I think she has a genuinely important story to tell, and I think we all owe to her our ears and our open minds, especially when it comes to cases like hers. There are so many people who are wrongfully convicted. It pains me to say that we want to think our justice system is great. It is very, very good. But it is not perfect. And to those who are victims of it, they deserve our attention. They deserve our care and our consideration, and they deserve our sympathy and our willingness to make good for what they've been through. Amanda has not received that. Not from everyone, not from a lot of people. And I think, you know, if I can be a small part in conveying this message through this interview, this podcast, I feel better. Certainly do. I just wish that she could have peace and she could be treated like the victim that she is in this crime. Like the person who has been wronged. Like the person who lost a life of her own and had to forge a brand new one. We all deserve that in our lives, right? And Amanda no less. So my great thanks to Amanda Knox for sitting for this podcast. The links to her podcast and her new book are going to be in the show notes, so make sure you check that out. I'm really appreciative that you stayed through the podcast for all of this episode of Drop Dead Serious. Please make sure to subscribe so that you don't miss any new episodes. And all the bonus content that I drop, and I do it very randomly, so if you don't subscribe, you won't get those notifications. And if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a comment. If you didn't, please leave a comment and leave a review. I love hearing from you. I like the critique and I love hearing that you love something or that you'd like to see something else. Thank you so much for listening, everyone. And remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead seriously.