← Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
Anna Kepner Case: Teen Stepbrother Sent to Jail As Cruise Ship Murder Case Explodes
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Upgrade your space with Eureka ergonomic@eureka ergonomic.com. Hey everyone, I'm Ashley Banfield and this is drop dead Serious. We've got some major news today in a Florida case. Do you remember that 16 year old stepbrother who was accused of killing his stepsister? Her name was Anna Kepner. She was a cheerleader in Florida. This happened on a Carnival cruise ship. That stepbrother, that teenager, just 16, not living at home anymore. Not with mom, not with dad, not with relatives. Because as of this morning, and I'm recording this, on Monday, June 15, Timothy Hudson, who has been declared an adult by the courts, he was ordered into the custody of the US Marshals. Ouch. Like that means you're on your way to lockup, right? You're not allowed to stay at home with mom and dad or anybody else for that matter, while we figure out how to deal with you as a 16 year old juvenile. Because the courts have decided you're not. They've decided they're. You're going to be an adult in this process. And that means pre trial custody, which sucks. Until now. That kid, and I say his name now because he's being treated as an adult in the system. Timothy Hudson. He had been living in the care of his uncle while the prosecutors figured out a way to get him detained. And newly unsealed federal court documents show that a judge made a decision and ordered Timothy Hudson's custodian to turn him over to the U.S. marshals at the Sam Gibbons United States Courthouse in Tampa. And that order was to be executed at 9 o' clock in the morning Eastern Time today, June 15th. And the reason that the prosecutors wanted him behind bars without bail goes straight back to what they say happened inside that stateroom on board the cruise ship, the cabin that Anna Kepner was sharing with her sibling. Slash step sibling. So let's go back to the very beginning of this case and take you through step by step in case you missed something. Florida cheerleader got on board the Carnival Horizon cruise ship. But in November of 2025, instead of coming home with amazing memories and all those vacation photos and selfies, 18 year old Anna Kepner was instead found dead. And she was stuffed under the bed inside that cabin that she was sharing with her stepbrother and her younger biological brother. But now that stepbrother, 16 year old Timothy Hudson, has been indicted and indicted as an adult by a federal grand jury. Yeah, this is the federal system, no joke, because this happened on board a cruise ship. Right. So the charges are, I mean, as serious as it gets. First degree murder and aggravated sexual abuse. The prosecutors say that Anna Kepner was sexually assaulted and intentionally killed. But in newly unsealed court records, the prosecutors described her alleged final moments as, quote, a barbaric, intentional, thoughtful act. Wow. I mean, if you're a defense attorney and Timothy Hudson is your client, that is a worry, because that's very descriptive, thoughtful, thoughtful. I mean, look, first degree can often be a couple of seconds of premeditation, right? But when you call this an intentional, thoughtful act, it doesn't fall into that basket. So, uphill climb for his defense attorney. And if the stepbrother Timothy Hudson is convicted of these crimes, he's facing life in prison. Like the maximum is life for a 16 year old. Prosecutors say the last time that Anna Kepner used her phone was at 8:14pm when she posted something on Snapchat. After that, prosecutors say Anna and her stepbrother Timothy were alone in that cabin they were sharing for about two hours. There is surveillance video in this case. The cameras later allegedly showed Timothy Hudson peeking outside the cabin door. But the cameras also show that Anna never emerged from that cabin alive again. And so after the peekaboo, prosecutors say Hudson, Timothy Hudson left the room and walked from one end of the ship all the way to the other and threw Anna's phone into a trash can at the ship's market. And when the phone was found by investigators, the screen was smashed. According to prosecutors, the coroner found Anna's underwear inside her body. I mean, just think about this. That is a detail that will not sit well with jurors if this happens. Ever sees a jury Right. Could end up as a plea deal. Never know. But just imagine. Just imagine that detail. This girl, 18 years old, her underwear is inside her body. And then on top of that, there's more, and it's very disturbing. Along with the underwear inside her body, prosecutors say semen was also found inside her body. And the prosecutors say that semen matched her stepbrother, Timothy Hudson. They also said that the medical examiner determined that Anna was alive when she was sexually assaulted. So just imagine the trauma that this girl was going through. Prosecutors say that Anna Kepner died in a very traumatic way. They say she was strangled in what they described as a chokehold. They alleged that the pressure was so severe that Anna's eardrums burst. Again, details a jury will not like. And at a February hearing, the prosecutor, Alejandra Lopez, said that while Anna struggled to breathe for minutes, her assailant continued to hold her neck in that position so that she would die from lack of oxygen. The minutes went by. Prosecutors argued that at any time, Timothy could have let go in just a little bit. I'm going to talk to someone who I often call when I see complicated legal situations arising in Florida. And I call him because he is Mr. Florida. He was the state attorney for Palm Beach County. He also writes a substack called Dave Ehrenberg Substack. And not only that, he has his own law practice, Dave Ehrenberg Law. And this is a case that has a federal and issue sort of transecting with a state issue, and it's a little complicated, and it's quite rare. So Dave is the perfect guy to sort this out, and he's coming up in just a bit. So here's another piece of this story that is going to be critical and also was a really jarring headline. Wasn't long ago that court documents came out that indicated there was other male DNA that the FBI wanted to test for that. They found two different male DNAs when it came to Anna Kepner's rape kit. And so they tested another boy from the cruise. This is somebody who's not connected to their family. Presumably, it's somebody that Anna met on the cruise. And the court documents say that she had consensual sex with that boy during the cruise. It doesn't say that day, that night. It doesn't say the timeline. It just says that she had consensual sex with that other boy during the cruise. They tested his DNA. They have nothing to say about that other boy in terms of involvement in all of this. In fact, the Opposite, they say he's not involved, not a contributor to whatever happened to Anna during the crime. And so they're very specific that Anna, anything that they tested with regard to this other boy does not factor into the rape and murder of Anna. And quite frankly, they said that there was no other sperm that was detected in Anna's DNA rape kit samplings. So very, very unique headline that came out. But I'm not so sure that it's something that a defense attorney is going to be able to seize on, meaning, well, you don't know who it was who killed her, that kind of thing. Because, because the prosecutors were so clear as to say nothing to see here with regard to that guy. That's kind of my very non legal way of describing what these very sort of intricate court documents said. Okay, back to the process that happened today because we kind of know what happens in the state system when you're going to grab a juvenile and treat him as an adult and then process them in the, you know, the county lockup and all the rest. But in the federal, federal system, I'm sort of like a fish out of water here. I have not covered many cases, if any. I'm trying to think of any where a juvenile, and in this particular case, Timothy Hudson is only 16, is brought up on rape and murder charges in the federal system and then held without bail in a county lockup. Because this is what happened. So this morning, and again, I'm, I'm recording this on Monday, June 15, the judge ordered the custodians of Timothy Hudson to bring him to the US Marshals and at which point the US Marshals were to bring him to the federal courthouse in Miami. And he wasn't going to stay in that federal courthouse for long. Some processing would happen there and then the US Marshals once again would hook him up and take him to the Citrus county lockup. And Citrus county is on the opposite coast, right? It's over on the Gulf. I'm still trying to figure out why Citrus county, other than there's a juvenile facility there and that's where this kid's got to go. The U.S. marshals are going to take him across the state after the visit to the federal courthouse in Miami and go all the way to Citrus county, which is north of Tampa. And he'll be locked up there and he's allowed visitation, he's allowed an iPad for communication. But I'm still trying to figure out why Citrus county because his family is actually in Titusville, last I knew. And that could change too. Because the families are all broken up here. But his family was in Titusville, which is over on the Space coast, again over on the east coast of Florida, way up north. So this is going to be a difficult setup for this kid because I don't think his parents or his family happen to be close by. And when you're a Jew movie, being locked up without bail, awaiting trial, it helps to have a visit from mom or dad or uncle or anybody at that point. I'm just not exactly sure how that's going to work. So there's the, the involvement of the U.S. marshals. Right. I'm sure this has got to be a terrifying whole process for this, this kid, the 16 year old kid into the federal courthouse, out of the federal courthouse, across the state to Citrus county and then the US Marshals come back into his life because the Judge said about 20th of July or so they're going to pick him up again and bring him back to Miami for all of the proceedings. So pretrial proceedings and then trial proceedings. It's the U.S. marshals who were there to do all of the transfers. And that was actually July 10th. And I'm not sure if July 10th is a specific date where he has to appear in the Southern District of Florida, but if you think about what it's like for a 16 year old boy to be in the custody of US Marshals and to be ferried, you know, across the state to your, your juvenile lockup at a very grown up county detention facility, all the way to federal court in Miami. That is some, I mean, shit gets real for a kid like that, right? And for any parents or custodians of any kind who have to help this kid navigate the reality that this lockup situation that you're in, walking around in handcuffs whenever you're transferred is kind of likely to be your life now for a very long time.
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B
Thanks Ashley. It's great to Be back on with you. You're doing great things online.
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A
Oh, thank you. Okay, let's talk. Anna Kepner. I suppose I wasn't expecting that this boy would be ordered into the custody of U.S. marshals. It just all sounded very sudden and very abrupt, but maybe I should have known that was coming.
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Yeah. You know, for a while, he was out there on pretrial release even after he was indicted and he was going to be charged as an adult. And his defense lawyers successfully argue that he hasn't committed any new offenses on pretrial release. He's been out there under supervision for a long time now. He's not a threat to flee. He's not a threat against witnesses. He's not a threat to the community, has no other offenses. So keep him out. And then the judge thought about it, let him go after the indictment. Remember, they let him walk and go home and now said, now come back in. You're going into the who's Gal pending trial.
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A
And I mean, wow. At 16 Marshall. So he was surrendered to the marshals, which I suppose is a little less traumatic than them coming to your door and taking you out in your underwear. So he surrendered to the marshals. And the. It was all very technical, the way the federal judge worded it. The marshals are to take him to the federal courthouse, and then there's processing there. And then the marshals are to take him to the Citrus county lockup. That's a county lockup because I guess that's where they have facilities for kids. So let's start from that beginning process. The marshals take him to the federal courthouse. Any idea sort of what that would look like, whether the parents could be with them, whether they've got to walk away as soon as the marshals have him in cuffs? Like, how do they do this?
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B
Yeah, the marshals are going to surround him. They're going to put him in handcuffs. They're going to walk him to the courthouse. The parents are not allowed to be next to him. They could trail behind, but they're going to be in charge of their kid now. And so once he gets to the courthouse, then you have that hearing. And then they decide where to go. They decide to send them to Citrus County. They did that for a reason, Ashley. First, because the federal government doesn't have its own standalone juvenile detention center. So they. They contract with local governments, like Citrus County's Attention Facility, and it's also located near the family. Apparently, I think they live in the Tampa area. So Citrus county is outside of there.
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So mom and dad and whoever else could be visiting on a regular basis because that was part of the order too, that they were allowed. He was allowed regular visitation as well as a tablet, you know, for communication that way. But when he's at the courthouse, now I get it, like courthouses have all sorts of little lockup spaces, right? That's where usually the defendant is locked up when they're on breaks and lunch and all the rest. But this kid is being brought, you know, by the marshals to the courthouse, I guess, for some kind of processing and then whisked away to Citrus county, at which point he's just in with all the other juvies. Or do they think of him as different because this is a sex crime? Like, I know that in grown up jail you got to be careful. You've got to have some sort of protective custody for those kinds of accusations. What about in juvie?
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Right. Well, there's a federal law that says you can't put him in with adult criminals. So because he's underage, he's going to be kept separate from the adults. But he will be in an adult facility. But there's a, like a juvenile wings for situations like this inside there.
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Do they have other laws about PC, you know, protective custody and how long they can be isolated by themselves? I mean, I get it for adults. They go into protective custody all the time. But you know, this is a kid, he's 16, he's probably crying his eyes out tonight. I'm just sort of wondering what the protocols are for dealing with kids like that when they've got to go to a grown up facility. Even in a juvie wing.
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B
Yeah, the marshals are bound by federal law. It's called the justice and Juvenile justice and Delinquency Protection Act. Good one. It rolls off the tongue, right? The jjdpa.
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A
I'm glad you took it in law school. Right.
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B
I mean, yeah, this is, this is the law that says that you have to have sight and sound separation so you can't be housed with or come into contact with adult inmates during his stay at the facilities, not even during his transport to the facilities. They do that to protect these young people who are still housed in an adult facility. That, that, that place in Sisters county that they're housing them in. They have adult prisoners there, but it is in a separate wing.
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A
Well, I wonder what it's like all of a sudden and whether he was expecting this or whether his lawyer, you know, prepped him enough for this because like, you know, grown men are known to cry on that first night. But I just wonder what they do. And by the way, something else in the order and maybe this is the answer. Dave something said that he will have access to plenty of psychiatric assessment and care and treatment if needed. So do you, do you suppose that on that first night there is somebody there to catch a kid and say, look, I know this is all very grown up, but this is the way it's going to go?
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Yeah, I think there are use of situations like this. And I must say, even though I was State Attorney for 12 years, I haven't myself been processed through the system. I've met with kids who are in a holding place with other juveniles. But when you send these young people into an adult system, it is rare. It is, it is a very important power that prosecutors have in the state system where you get discretion to what's called direct file. It is done rarely, but it's a very weighty decision. Now in the federal system, it's a little different. The federal system, the prosecutors don't have the discretion just to send them there. You got to first get approval from the judge. So here you had all these steps to protect this young person. If only there were people to protect the victim in this case.
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A
I mean, amen. Let's talk about this, because when those details came out, I just had to shake my head. I thought, well, you know, I wanted to think it was an accident. I wanted to think something went wrong. But then, I mean, just hearing the horror that this girl went through at the hands of a stepbrother, it's just sort of mystifying. I keep saying, if a jury hears this, it's not going to go well for him.
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No, no. And the sexual assault is really going to do him in because he can say, well, he just snapped. He has mental issues, he didn't take his meds, it was an accident. He just. Things got out of hand. Whatever, whatever you want to say when you talk about sexual assault. And then the evidence shows that he had this poor girl in a chokehold for like three to five minutes and he could have let her go at any point and he kept it on until her eardrums popped. Just a horrific death. It's. It shows intent, it shows premeditation. Also, by the way the whole thing was planned and how he tried to cover his tracks, it's. It's not good for him. And I'd be surprised if he gets away with it because I think he's going to be serving decades in prison.
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A
Then there's the. And not to get too granular, but you kind of have to in this case, just to understand the length of suffering, because that plays into this. The rape happened while she's alive. And look, I don't know if you can play Twister to the point where you can put someone in a chokehold and rape them at the same time, which says to me that she was violently raped to the point where her underwear was found inside her and then put in a chokehold after. So the whole. The whole crime just seems so lengthy and so violent and so vile. I just can't imagine what side of the court the parents sit on.
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B
Oh, well, I think part of the problem is you had parents who seem to look the other way. I mean, you had the ex boyfriend of Anna Kepner, who said that this stepbrother was creeping her out, that he was making moves on her, and she was nervous about being with him, being in the same place with him. Meanwhile, the parents, I think everything is great. You know, the relatives, oh, they get along so well together. Put them in the same room, meanwhile, she's nervous, and this guy is a ticking time bomb. So I don't have a lot of sympathy for the parents here. I have sympathy for the victim. And also, quite frankly, the young brother who came upon the body, who was locked out of the room, who was essentially told not to go in the room. You want more evidence that he was trying to cover his tracks, that this was a plan, he's trying to hide the body and trying to keep the brother from entering the room. I mean, this whole thing just reeks to high heaven. And. And I just hope justice gets done.
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A
I mean, you know, there's obviously, there's. There's a lot of, like, domestic issues with the parents. It's a. These are different marriages, different kids of different. You know, but. But this is going to cause, I mean, to say the least, a lot of consternation between these marriages. And I can only imagine that that's going to play out as part of the court process, too. It's not like you have one family of the defendant and one family of the victim. They're all together, and they all feel differently. So I can only imagine they're going to have to have extra, like, security in the courtroom.
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B
Well, you've got a lot of bailiffs, and this courtroom is one of the safer places to be because not only do you have a bunch of bailiffs, armed security there, but you also have to go through a metal detector to get inside the courtroom. So yeah, that is one of the safer places to be. Another piece of evidence that I've learned is the fact that Anna Kepner was wearing an apple watch that tracked her heart rate. And so prosecutors are alleging that her heart rate data stopped precisely during that three and a half hour window when she and the defendant were left entirely alone in their shared cruise cabin. And then, of course, you know, we all heard about the video on the cruise ship, which is not a great place if you're a criminal to commit crimes, because there's cameras everywhere where they show him looking both ways before he leaves the stateroom, just making sure no one is seeing him. I mean, my gosh, they got him.
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A
I mean, he's a young teen. They're the dumbest of dumb when it comes to, you know, trying to. Trying to avoid all forensic tracking. Right?
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B
So.
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A
So about that. Let's just say, you know, that the dice are cast against him. The deck is stacked. Whatever it is, it look really bad from where I'm sitting, and I'm not inside all the documents. Is this a case, and again, federal, which means, you know, they've got their ducks in a row before they charge this kid. Is this a case where, if you're, as attorney, you're saying, look, kiddo, we got to make a plea deal or you are. You will go away forever. What would be the strategy here?
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B
Well, as a 12 year state attorney and only a recent criminal defense lawyer, I'm glad I'm not defending this guy. I would say the chance of showing a diminished capacity, that the his mental ailments meant that he didn't have the requisite premeditation to be convicted of the most serious charge. You could also try to point the finger at others, like the younger brother, and that's ridiculous because the evidence doesn't point to anyone but him. But they can try that, and they're not gonna be able to. I mean, they could try to say consensual stuff, but they're not gonna be able to. The evidence, like the underwear, the chokehold that doesn't show consent. So this is tough. But I would think of all the possible defenses, the mental health incapacity would be the best defense, focusing on his prior psychiatric observations and medication management, that kind of stuff. And so they could just say he doesn't have the requisite mens re or criminal intent to really do the most heinous crime here. I mean, I think they'll still get him. Even if that works, I don't know if it will. They'll get him on other charges, too, and he'll still spend decades in prison. And then, of course, they're gonna do things like, you know, they're gonna challenge the adult transfer to see if they can get him tried as a juvenile again. They'll. They'll challenge the digital evidence. You know, stuff like the defense lawyers do all the time. But, you know, it's gonna be an uphill battle for them. They may want to try to get a plea deal early. The better plea deals are the ones done early, before the prosecutors have to
- [29:52]
A
do a lot of work that makes sense. You know, I wonder if this does end up litigated, if this does end up in front of a jury, do you think the fact, like, would they be able to bring up the age of the kid, given the fact that he's being treated as an adult, like he's being tried as an adult? Are the defense attorneys allowed to bring up the fact that he's not an adult?
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B
Well, it's impossible to ignore it. First of all, we've seen this over and over again. Remember the Nikolas Cruz case? I can't believe you mentioned his name. Evil murderer Marjorie Stoneman Douglas. They dress him up as a child with a big sweater and the oversized glasses, so they will find a way to make him look as childlike as possible. But the fact that his age would come up in the penalty phase, where they. If he's found guilty, that will say, your honor, he's. He's a child, and I think that that is where it plays. But as far as having his part as his part of his defense, it's sort of built in by the fact that they're going to present him as this kid who had mental ailments, who was dependent on his parents for medications, which he didn't get, and so he didn't have the mental capacity, the mens rea. The intent to commit the most heinous of the crimes.
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A
Well, I mean, if that's the case, I would like to see some other evidence of some other time when he behaved like this, because what, it just happened once. I mean, that's nuts to think that somebody can be that evil for that prolonged amount of time against someone who. Who's in the family. The whole thing just is so gross. So here's how you can save up to 70% on your favorite brands from. Rebel.com has everything for your home, family, and life, from strollers to skincare at unbeatable prices. Every day, Rebel drops thousands of new products for up to 70% off it's a constant stream of endless deals from brands like Uppababy, Nuna, Baby Bjorn, Nespresso, Breville, Wilson, Dyson, Caraway and more. Every listing is one of a kind and the best things go first. So you have to move fast. Save big on your favorite brands. Shop now for up to 70% at from rebel.com.
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i sold my car in Carvana last night.
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A
Well, that's cool.
- [32:05]
B
No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong.
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A
So what's the problem?
- [32:13]
B
That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes as smoothly. I'm waiting for the catch.
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A
Maybe there's no catch.
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B
That's exactly what a catch would want me to think.
- [32:20]
A
Wow. You need to relax.
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B
I need a knock on wood.
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A
Do we have.
- [32:23]
B
What is this table wood?
- [32:24]
A
I think it's laminate.
- [32:25]
B
Okay. Yeah, that's good.
- [32:26]
A
That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up. These may apply.
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B
Hey, it's your ceiling vent.
- [32:35]
A
So I'm dripping. Could be the rain, could be the upstairs bathroom. Yikes. You could hire the guy your neighbor recommended, but I'm pretty sure that's just his cousin. Do we know if he's licensed or does he just own a ladder?
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B
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Thumbtack.
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We know homes hire the right pro today.
- [33:02]
A
And I know that that's going to be like a prevailing feeling among jurors, like ew. The ew factor. And they'll probably have to see her body. And that, that's another question when it comes to an 18 year old victim who dies after a violent and I mean really, I don't know what other adjective could put on this, but just sort of a disturbing rape, right? The underwear found inside her. How graphic are the pictures that the jury has to see?
- [33:31]
B
Oh, yeah, you have to have a strong stomach to be a juror in these sex crime cases. And there's just no way for that for those jurors to unsee it. So once that gets into evidence, it's more likely then that he'd be found guilty of the murder. And that's where there'd be some instructions to the jury as to how to extrapolate certain evidence. I mean, you're not supposed to use propensity evidence, meaning you're not supposed to say. Yeah, because he did the sexual assault, then of course, he's a murderer. You know, you have to prove the elements of each of each charge. But it's so hard for jurors to unsee. And that's why once they see that the sexual assault happened, they're gonna hate this guy, they're gonna hate this kid. And you're not gonna be able to really separate it from the murder, because it's part of the murder, it's part of his motive. He was allegedly having sex with her, choking her in involuntary sex, rape. And that's how she died, because he kept her in a chokehold the whole time. So it's hard to separate one from the other.
- [34:32]
A
So usually when a sentence comes down, most people think, well, that's terrible, but no one ever serves their whole sentence. But this is federal, and I'm wondering, you got a juvie in federal. Is he going to get an opportunity to get out early if he's convicted of this crime?
- [34:49]
B
Well, he'll be treated in adult court like an adult criminal. And if he gets convicted, then he can get good conduct time, which can usually eliminate about 15% of the sentence. If he's given a number of years, that wouldn't affect a life sentence. But there is no parole board at the federal level. There is no parole at the state level. Although if he was prosecuted as a. In this way, as a juvenile in the state system, the state court system, he would be eligible for a review. Federal system is tougher on that. And that's another disadvantage for him for being in the federal system. They don't have the same type of review later in life that a state conviction would provide for a juvenile who was tried as an adult. So although you cannot get the death penalty in either the state or the federal system, if you're a juvenile, you could in certain circumstances get life in prison. The judge has to jump through a bunch of extra hoops for it because he's a juvenile, but it is possible he'll spend the rest of his life in prison.
- [35:55]
A
Is it possible that he'll get life without the possibility of parole? Because I know that that can't be automatic when it comes to juv. But they can get it if that's determined by a judge.
- [36:07]
B
Right. The judge has to go through a bunch of potential mitigating factors. They've got to go through a litany of things that the supreme court set out in recent precedent, but they could still get life in prison for murder. Now, only for murder, but this is a murder case, and that would be life without parole. And that's why the stakes couldn't be higher here. I mean, the fact that he's in federal court as opposed to state court, I think works against his opportunity in the future to ever get out of prison.
- [36:36]
A
I got a question about what kind of hay a defense attorney can make of the fact that prosecutors asked another male passenger on board to supply DNA so that they could test against one of the swabs that they said they got from Anna Kepner. Not a semen swab, but a swab. And they said in court documents that Anna Kepner had had consensual sex with another male passenger, a young minor. I think they called him minor witness, too. During the cruise. Not necessarily that day, just during the cruise. The fact that the other swab that had semen, they say is the stepbrothers, is sort of the most, you know, egregious accusation. But what can the defense attorney make of this other piece?
- [37:27]
B
The defense lawyers are going to try to point to anyone else who could have done this heinous act to Anna Kempner, and that would be the younger brother who was there in the same room, and also this young man who apparently had sexual relations with Anna Kempner, who had nothing to do with any of this. But because there's proximity, they're gonna say that's the real killer. It's hard because there's not a lot of evidence pointing to anyone but the defendant. I mean, in fact, all the evidence points to him. But it doesn't take much to establish some reasonable doubt in the minds of one juror, and that's a hung jury. So defense lawyers are gonna try to use that just to try to give at least one of the 12 jurors some doubts in their mind to think, well, maybe it could be this stranger that she met on the. On the ship. Maybe it could be the brother. Another thing that the defense is going to try to do is they're going to try to put the victim on trial. As unseemly as that is, they're going to try to make her less sympathetic to the jury by saying, look, she's had relations with this other young man. And, I mean, it's terrible, but it is still allowable for the defense lawyers to try to paint the complete picture. And if they could turn a juror or two against the victim in some way, oh, then maybe they've got a better shot in the end. I don't think it's going to matter. I think the defendant's going to Be found guilty.
- [39:00]
A
Yeah, I mean, I get it. It's an ugly business sometimes when you get into that courtroom. Victims get muddied all the time. They get beaten up, they get dirtied all the time in the effort for, you know, a defendant to find, find justice. But boy, oh boy, I sure hope that there are reasonable jurors who realize it is completely allowed for an 18 year old woman to have consensual sex with someone and she shouldn't, you know, she shouldn't be denied justice, you know, because of it. But I get it. I get how it works. I get that the defense attorney is going to grab at every single straw they can find.
- [39:38]
B
Well, also because the victim is not there to defend herself.
- [39:42]
A
Yeah. Amen to that. I have a question about cruise ships in general because I know that it's just such a different kind of jurisdiction. What is it? Explain what happens when you're off on the water. Not on mainland, usa, maybe within, you know, American waters. Maybe in international waters aboard a US flagged ship. Like how does it work?
- [40:05]
B
Yeah, under federal law, the United States has special maritime and territorial jurisdiction. So because it's happened at sea, outside of any individual state's borders, no state has jurisdiction. It belongs entirely to the feds. And what makes it so unusual is that that means the feds are entrusted to prosecute a juvenile for murder. It's rare. They don't normally do juvenile cases. Also just basic murder cases, those are done by my old office, state attorney's offices. But 90% of crimes are prosecuted at the local and state level, not by the feds. But here you have a run of the mill murder case. It's not your typical federal case. It involves a juvenile, but because it was at sea, the feds have jurisdiction.
- [40:50]
A
Is that good or bad for this kid? Meaning if it were a state case, would he fare better? Would he have more, you know, I don't know, potentially assets or availabilities? Would he, would it be a better system for him to be in if he were state? Or is he actually getting a, a bonus because it's federal or the opposite?
- [41:10]
B
When I was state attorney, I would tell people that if you were to be prosecuted, you should hope it's from state prosecutors because when you're prosecuted by the feds, you're almost certainly going to go down. I mean, you, the people who, who get acquitted at the federal level, or people like Mark Cuban, you know, people who have the ability to afford very expensive defense because the system is built for the feds to win that's why they win like 95, 97, 98% of their cases. And the reason is multifold. Number one, they have draconian penalties for crimes, tougher penalties than the state. Although murder is murder and you'd get life or even worse, but not because they're juvenile. Once you're a juvenile, you can't get the death penalty. Life is the maximum. But also you have the federal government, which has just a few cases per prosecutor compared to the state. The states, their prosecutors have hundreds of cases and they're on a timeline. The time's always, like rushing. Go here, go here. We have to respond to deadlines. Federal prosecutors choose which cases they want to prosecute so they have the time to really spend on these matters, more so than state prosecutors. Plus, they have limited discovery. State prosecutors in Florida, we have to turn over everything. There's depositions. Federal discovery is much more limited. It's much more advantageous to the prosecution. Then you have unlimited budgets at the federal level because the federal government prints money. And so you have all these advantages built in for federal prosecutions compared to state prosecutions.
- [42:46]
A
I had no idea about the discovery. Like, how does, how is that. And I hate to say this because I know that everybody's sort of angry at this defendant, but how is it fair to a defendant to limit the discovery because you have a right to confront all of the accusations against you?
- [43:02]
B
Well, that's a federal system. The state, state laws are Florida, we have sunshine laws, and we have all these loose laws that allow defendants to be able to take depositions more so than the federal level. And also at the state level, you have to give over the stuff early on. The feds can sometimes turn over stuff on the day of trial. It's a lot more structured, a lot more rigid, a lot more fast paced than Florida state court. Because, I mean, the state court, yeah, they give it to you well in advance. It's just, you know, like, over time, the default is that the defense gets everything federal. The federal rules are tougher for defense lawyers. There are mandatory initial disclosures, but it's much harder to get stuff at the federal level if you're a defense lawyer than it is at the state level.
- [43:54]
A
I always know that the feds front load their investigation before they even charge. And certainly before they go to trial. They got a lot of their, if not all of their ducks in a row. And it did seem for a while like there were no charges. There's probably poor Anna Kepner's body found stuffed under a bed on her cruise ship. And there's all these, you know, suggestions about what might have happened. And yet it took forever to see an actual charge. But here we are rolling right ahead. And I wonder if, for all the reasons of the things that you've said, that this is going to be a world of hurt for Timothy Hudson. Like this is not likely to go his way.
- [44:31]
B
Oh, he's gonna be convicted. The evidence is overwhelming against it. Now, could I see a lesser charge and not the first degree murder charge? Yep, possibly, if they can show a lack of mens rea, a lack of premeditation. But I don't think he's surviving a secondary murder charge. I think he'll be found guilty there. And so I don't see that he would be getting away with this. I don't even see a hung jury. Now, one advantage that juveniles have is that they do get eligible for parole at some point. Now, in the adult system, there is no parole in Florida anymore. But in the juvenile system, the Supreme Court said you have to have at least an opportunity for a evaluation review. And if you want to get life in prison, which is eligible for a juvenile, the court has to go through a number of factors that they don't have to go through in adult court.
- [45:27]
A
I do know that the prosecutors said this was a, quote, barbaric, intentional and thoughtful act. So it sounds to me like it's going to be pretty hard to fight that whole mens rea business
- [45:42]
B
when you have all the evidence that shows that they were in the room for three to five minutes in it while she was on a chokehold for three to
- [45:50]
A
five minutes at any point with a rape beforehand. Because, you know, the coroner said she was raped while she was alive.
- [45:59]
B
She was, she was being raped. That part is really, I think, gonna do him in. Because once the jury hears about that, it's just they're gonna hate this guy. Any benefit of the doubt that he would otherwise get for being a juvenile. Any benefit of the doubt that he would otherwise get because he has mental ailments and has allegedly bad parents. We don't know exactly. That's going to go out the window once they hear about rape. No one's going to tolerate that.
- [46:29]
A
And a vicious one, too. Question for you about the way the, the deals work. Yeah, I get it. In a state case, you know, you're working your way towards completing the case while the guy is, you know, sitting without bail and in jail, etc, but in this case, you know, the fact that they've already got him arrested and in Custody means that they are, you know, maybe 80 to 90% of the way towards trial. How does the deal making work? Would his attorney, would the defendant's attorney approach the feds to say, hey, listen, what about a deal? And what are the odds that, that a federal prosecutor will accept anything? Because it feels like they don't go ahead unless they've got, like you said, 90% of their case is ready to go. Would they even accept a deal?
- [47:16]
B
The Southern District of Florida is run by a very tough on crime prosecutor, Jason Redding Quinones. And he's not going to be the type to fly in the face of public opinion and to say, no, we're going to give this kid a second chance. He's tough and he's going to, I think, push for the maximum penalty. Maximum sense. I, that's why I don't think that he would accept any plea deal that's anything less than many decades in prison.
- [47:44]
A
Well, if he'd accept anything at all. Right. Would they just to spare the cost, because you said they've got unlimited resources at the federal level. But would the feds say, you know, maybe we're not so sure of this case? I, I doubt that. Would they just accept a plea deal to spare the taxpayers?
- [47:59]
B
No, not to spare the taxpayers, but to spare the victim's family, perhaps the, the, not the family of the stepbrother, but the Anna's family. Anna's family. They, if they say, please, we can't go any further with this, please, let's just get this over with, I think then they would be open to it. But remember, prosecutors don't represent the victim or the victim's family. They represent the people. That's why it's the United States versus this young man. That's why it's the people versus the defendant or the state. It's not the victim. And that's why sometimes, even though the victim's family may say one thing, prosecutors have other interests, like public safety, like retribution, like sending the right message for future defendants. Those types of things all come into play.
- [48:48]
A
This is a blended family, so it's a very complicated mess, obviously. But would you see, once this criminal aspect is wrapped up, would you see that this case is also ripe for some kind of civil action? You know, Anna's nuclear family going after this boy's nuclear family, even though there is a connection at the marriage level, and might that be a successful lawsuit?
- [49:13]
B
Yes, I do think you can see a wrongful death lawsuit. Something where the family is accused of enabling their son, knowing their Son was a ticking time bomb. And yet being negligent in how they addressed his mental health needs or how they look the other way, or maybe just the fact that they put them in a, in a room together, knowing that there were issues in the past. But you have to show more than just making a mistake, you have to show that they knew there was a problem. But civil court is much easier than criminal court. I don't expect anyone else to be charged with crimes here, but civilly, all you have to do is approve a case by a preponderance of the evidence. Is it more likely than not that negligence occurred or wrongful death occurred? Much easier to prove those cases than in criminal court. And then if there's insurance, yeah, then they could get paid. But that's also another consideration. Are the parents judgment proof? Do they have insurance? Who would pay? And then the question is, would they sue Carnival Cruise Lines? Did they violate their duty of care to Anna Kempner? I, I don't know. It's still a little early to say, but I don't think this is going to be over in criminal court.
- [50:21]
A
Well, I feel sorry for Carnival Cruise Lines because it was the parents that decided to house them together in that cabin. But it does make me wonder if this is going to be one of those precedent setting cases where cruise lines now say, I'm sorry, we will not put step siblings together in cabins. I can't imagine your, you know, the, the public's privacy being encroached upon that much by a corporation. I mean, you should be able to stay with whoever you want in a cabin. But I, but I almost feel like this would be one of those cases.
- [50:52]
B
Boy, this is such an unusual case. To have a change like that for all future cruises I think would not be justified. I mean, I know the cruise lines want to protect themselves, but how many times you see, if step siblings stay in the same room, how many times does this happen? Almost never. I mean, maybe this is the only time. So I don't think they should do a blanket rule because most families are not like this and most parents are not going to allow something like this to happen. But like we're going to see the facts come out in this over time. We haven't learned as much as we would learn normally if it was the state system where you have more broad discovery rules and you also have better access for the press in state court than you do in federal court. But ultimately we'll know the facts.
- [51:39]
A
Yeah, I know. Listen, you were a state attorney, so you know that side of the courtroom. Now you're a defense attorney. Different side of the courtroom. If this was your client, and I know it's a federal case, but if you had this, if you had a part of this case, what would you be advising and what kind of steps
- [51:55]
B
would you be taking as a defense lawyer? I would first try to challenge competency to say that he does not understand the nature of the charges against him and he cannot assist in his defense. That is the first thing that you have to prove to at least put the wheels of justice in motion. Because if you have such mental incompetency, we're not talking about insanity, offense, we're talking about that you just don't understand the nature of the proceedings in front of you and you can't even get
- [52:27]
A
into the courtroom to be tried, can't
- [52:29]
B
even get in the courtroom to be tried, sent to a mental hospital. I would also try to challenge the finding that he should be going to adult court. There's such an advantage if you can be tried in juvenile court. I would then do what the defense lawyers are going to do, which is challenge all the digital evidence. And, but this has got to be one of the tougher ones for the defense lawyers because not only is the evidence stacked against them, but the world is watching. So it's going to be very difficult.
- [52:56]
A
Yeah. Not, not to mention that it's a federal case and like you said, they win like 95% or more of their, their cases. Dave Aronberg, so good to talk to you. Thank you for this.
- [53:07]
B
Thank you, Ashley.
- [53:09]
A
So there you have it. I don't like the prospects for Timothy Hudson and I can't imagine. Again, I'm recording this on Monday, June 15th and I assume that this is night number one where he puts his head on the pillow out of county jail. A grown up county jail. Yes, the juvenile wing of it, the juvenile part of the county jail. But when you're processed and you are locked behind bars and you try to sleep that night, I said it before, I'll say it again. It is normal for grown men to cry. Now just imagine a 16 year old boy and all the thoughts going through his head. If he did this horrible crime, is that what he's thinking about? Or is he thinking about how terrified he is in this very terrifying grown up lockup. Or is he thinking about the life of Anna Kepner? Or is he thinking about his family? Or is he just thinking, please, for the love of God, let sleep come quickly and last long? I don't even know what I'd be thinking. Hey, thank you so much for being here. If you've already subscribed, thank you. If you haven't, please do. It is easy and cheap and free and fun and all the rest, but it really does me a solid. And to everybody who joined me for the Ask Me Anything yesterday was super fun having you. I love your questions. And if you want to be part of the next one, you just have to join because the members are allowed to ask the questions. And we do have a lot of fun and really, really good questions. Thank you. For those of you who gave me those very, very smart questions and I look forward to the next one. In the meantime, I always close this way. The truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead seriously.