Bombshell Details & Clues from Savannah, Police Source Reveals Inside Detail | Nancy Guthrie Case

Summary

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Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield

Episode: Bombshell Details & Clues from Savannah, Police Source Reveals Inside Detail | Nancy Guthrie Case
Published: March 26, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode, hosted by veteran crime reporter Ashleigh Banfield, focuses on startling new developments in the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie—mother of TV personality Savannah Guthrie. Ashleigh delves into Savannah's emotional first public interview about the case and brings in exclusive insights from police sources and renowned investigator Paul Holes. The discussion covers newly revealed clues, family dynamics, police resource allocation, forensic findings, and hypotheses about the perpetrator’s motive. The tone is both compassionate and analytical, blending Ashleigh's irreverent style with deep investigative expertise.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. Savannah Guthrie’s First Detailed Interview

• (05:05–14:25)
  Savannah Guthrie opens up on the Today show about her mother's disappearance for the first time, sharing personal anguish and never-before-heard details about the case.
  • Learning of her mother's disappearance:
    • Her sister Annie called her in a panic; she initially thought it was a medical emergency (06:47).
    • Noted that "the back doors were propped open," raising questions since Nancy was mobility-impaired and unlikely to wander off.
  • New info on Nancy's medical condition:
    • “She can’t wander off. My mom… she was in tremendous pain. Her back was very bad… on a good day she could walk down to the mailbox and get the mail, but most days, not.” (08:45)
    • Confirmed “doors were propped open”, “blood on the front doorstep”, and the doorbell “Ring camera had been yanked off.”
  • Emotional impact:
    • Savannah shared her fear that her mother’s abduction might be connected to her own public profile and wealth (12:01).

2. Bombshell Clues – Doors, Cameras, and Blood Evidence

• (04:22–09:35, 14:25–15:21, 31:38–34:17, 54:55–58:01)
  • Investigation confirms three back doors, not two, all potentially left unsecured (06:24–06:47).
  • Law enforcement and Savannah confirm “back doors, plural, propped open” (08:01).
  • Savannah provides new detail: “84-year-old woman in the dead of night in her pajamas, with no shoes, without her medicine….” (14:49).
  • Ashleigh reveals, via sources, that blood patterns found inside the front hall are mirrored by blood outside, suggesting an injury at or near the entrance but not elsewhere inside (32:41, 77:24).
  • Camera evidence: discussion of the Ring cam being “yanked off”; previous report of cameras smashed, possibly to avoid detection (09:35, 69:26–70:11).

3. The Ransom Angle: Real or Red Herring?

• (18:13–19:41, 46:21–46:44, 41:23–44:06, 48:31–50:33)
  • Savannah clarifies there were multiple ransom notes, most likely fake, but believes “two notes… are real” (19:23).
  • Paul Holes opines the ransom may have been a deliberate misdirection, suggesting the abduction could be more personally motivated than financially (44:06).
  • The possibility is raised that ransom communications could be entirely from opportunistic outsiders seeking to scam (46:21).

4. Effects of the Crime on the Family and Community

• (12:01–14:25, 21:44–23:16, 24:07–25:46, 25:03–27:22)
  • Emotional toll: Savannah feels guilt and pain over the possibility that her fame was a motivating factor.
  • Notable quote: “I just say, I’m so sorry, Mommy, I’m so sorry… if it is me, I’m so sorry.” (12:33)
  • Enormous distress caused by public suspicion of family involvement. Savannah: “There are no words…I don’t understand. I’ll never understand.” (21:44)
  • Savannah describes her faith as a comfort: “I heard a voice… ‘You do know where she is. She’s with me.’” (24:19)

5. The State of the Investigation

• (28:38–31:16, 36:53–45:07, 57:09–58:40, 61:11–63:57)
  • Dramatic drop in staffing: From 400 investigators early on to “maybe a dozen or so” now (05:05, 28:38).
  • Direct quote from an investigator: “We ain’t got shit.” (31:16)
  • Paul Holes explains case “atrophy” is normal as urgent leads dry up and other crimes compete for resources; stresses many “whodunit” cases do take years.
  • Public advised: if their car was possibly used or acting odd on the night of the disappearance, contact authorities (52:26–53:49).

6. Offender Profile and Motive Theories

• (38:59–44:06, 44:49–52:26, 60:21–63:57, 71:54–74:53)
  • Paul Holes strongly suspects the offender’s intent was to harm Nancy, not seek ransom, and that the perpetrator may have had a personal connection.
  • The elaborate misdirection (costume, deliberate camera approach) suggests a “sophisticated and intelligent” offender rather than a mere opportunist.
  • The possibility of a sex crime, revenge, or targeting for money—all remain, but Holes leans toward personal targeting.
  • Discusses offender possibly being a previous service worker, delivery person, or contractor who learned the house’s vulnerabilities.
  • Blood pattern analysis: presence at the entrance—not throughout the house—suggests an injury right at the front door or during removal.

7. Public and Media’s Roles in Solving the Case

• (60:21–63:57)
  • Ashleigh and Paul discuss the value of media and true crime crowdsourcing, urging law enforcement to strategically release more information to prompt leads.
  • Cites Gabby Petito and other cold cases where podcasters and citizen sleuths advanced investigations.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Initial Discovery (Savannah Guthrie, 06:47):
  “We thought that she must have had, like, some kind of medical episode in the night…because the back doors were propped open, you know, and that didn’t make any sense.”

• On Family Guilt (Savannah, 12:33):
  “It’s too much to bear to think that I brought this to her bedside, that it’s because of me. And I just say, I’m so sorry, Mommy, I’m so sorry.”

• On Police Resource Drawdown (Ashleigh, 28:38):
  “It used to be 400 investigators. Right now…maybe only a dozen or so. That’s FBI and Pima County.”

• Investigator Resignation (Ashleigh quoting source, 31:16):
  “A source in the investigation has said, and this is a direct quote…‘We ain’t got shit.’”

• Faith and Not-Knowing (Savannah, 24:07):
  “As I said to myself, I can handle anything, God, I can handle anything. I just can’t handle not knowing.”

• Paul Holes on Motive (38:59):
  “You know, when I see him in that costume…he wants to be seen. He’s misdirecting…Don’t look at this as an abduction ransom case. I think he possibly had some personal connection to Nancy and he went to the house to harm her.”

• Blood Pattern Analysis (Paul Holes, 77:24):
  “Having blood drips inside…right there in that front entry, that only tells me that I have a bleeding source from Nancy that is dripping blood at that point in time.”

• On Law Enforcement’s Approach (Paul Holes, 61:11):
  “As the case ages…you need to make sure that we can continue to keep the media and public informed because there may be a solution as we provide more details.”

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Key Timestamps and Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | Speaker(s) | |----------------|-----------------------------------------------------------|-----------------------------| | 05:05–06:47 | Savannah details first learning her mom was missing | Ashleigh, Savannah | | 06:47–08:01 | Savannah on “back doors propped open”, initial confusion | Savannah | | 08:45–09:28 | Savannah on mom’s incapacity, blood, yanked camera | Savannah | | 12:01–14:25 | Savannah on family guilt, kidnap theories | Savannah | | 14:49–15:21 | Savannah: “in pajamas, no shoes, without her medicine…” | Savannah | | 18:13–19:41 | Ransom notes: which are credible, which are not | Savannah | | 24:07–24:19 | Profound faith moment: “I heard a voice…‘She’s with me’” | Savannah | | 28:38–31:16 | Police drawdown; “we ain’t got shit” source quote | Ashleigh | | 36:53–44:06 | Paul Holes: cold case process, investigation drawdown | Ashleigh, Paul Holes | | 44:49–47:13 | Motives for homicide, personal connection theories | Paul Holes | | 54:28–55:33 | Public info: what if your car was involved? | Ashleigh, Paul Holes | | 57:09–58:40 | How/why police reallocate resources as case goes cold | Ashleigh, Paul Holes | | 61:11–63:57 | Role of media & podcasters in solving cases | Ashleigh, Paul Holes | | 69:26–74:53 | Cameras smashed, house points of entry, who offender may be| Ashleigh, Paul Holes | | 77:24–80:22 | Blood evidence, what it can and can’t tell investigators | Ashleigh, Paul Holes |

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Summary Takeaways

• Three back doors, routinely left unlocked, may have made entry easier.
• Savannah Guthrie's family believes the “ransom” angle may be a red herring; pain and guilt linger over the possibility that fame made their mother a target.
• Blood patterns inside and outside the front entrance are mirror images, but not found elsewhere, suggesting the attack or bleeding began as Nancy was removed.
• Resource allocation has plummeted; law enforcement source candidly tells Ashleigh they have no substantial leads.
• Renowned investigator Paul Holes suggests the case was staged to appear as a kidnapping for ransom, but personal targeting or violence is more likely.
• Call to action: Local listeners are urged to report any suspicious vehicle-related activity from the night of the crime.
• Media and true crime crowdsourcing may hold the key to advancing cold cases as law enforcement resources dwindle.

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Final Thoughts

Ashleigh closes with a reminder that the truth is “drop dead serious” and urges any listeners with knowledge or suspicions to contact authorities—particularly about possible use of their vehicles the night Nancy Guthrie vanished. The episode previewed additional interview content with Savannah Guthrie slated for the next day and encouraged continued vigilance and hope from the public.

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If you have information related to the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, call 1-800-CALL-FBI.

Transcript

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[Ashley Banfield]

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[Bob Garfield]

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[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Ashley Banfield]

Hey everyone, I'm Ashley Banfield and this is drop dead serious. Big news today in the Nancy Guthrie case. It's day. Oh God. 54. Every time I see the numbers go up like this, I still can't believe how long this has been. But a lot has happened that I want to bring to you. Number one, Savannah Guthrie has spoken for the first time openly about a lot of details, not just about how this has affected her, how it's affected her family, but she's also released details about the investigation and what happened inside that house that we had not heard before and some that actually confirmed things that I reported to you in on day three. So I'm going to play for you the information that Savannah has released in her interview on the Today show with Hoda Copy. And also I've learned some information as well from my sources in the investigation about the progress or lack thereof, specifics about that. And in a moment you're also going to hear from an investigator who perhaps might be the leading authority on cases that are real difficult to solve. Like the case that he was instrumental in solving took up to four decades to solve. So Paul Holes, famous, famous Costa Contra investigator, he is going to join me in just a moment and talk about when a case atrophies and how they draw down on the investigators, the staffing, the resources and all the rest. Like what's the actual metric they use to start pulling everything away? Because right now we know there's task force, right? It used to be 400 investigators. Right now we know it is task force and it may be only a dozen or so. That's FBI and Pima County Sheriff's Department investigators. So he's really, really knowledgeable about that, especially with the information that I just learned from my source about where this investigation stands now. So let me just get right to it with some of the news that Savannah Guthrie made when she did her interview on the Today show this morning. And Again, it is March 26th. It's Thursday. So Hoda got right to it and talked about how she learned that her mom was missing. Like what. What were the steps that she went through to find out what had happened and arrive down in Arizona and meet up with her siblings for the first time. And what you're about to hear is not only that information, but also listen very carefully in Savannah's answer, because she gives a detail about the back doors of the house. And I need to tell you that a couple days ago, I did an episode on information that I got from my sources, like enforcement sources, saying that the Guthrie kids had told the police that Mrs. Guthrie routinely left her back doors, plural, open, unlocked. And we did the best we could to look with every image we could at the back of Mrs. Guthrie's house, and we could only identify two back doors. But since that episode, Gray Hughes, who also helped me to identify this, was able to identify a third door that you just cannot see. It's a third back door that actually goes into the kitchen.

[Investigator/Analyst]

I was just on Ashley Banfield's show yesterday, and she. Well, a recording, and she put out a video, and we were discussing where the doors are. And then she apparently uncovered an image today where it shows. I think it's Savannah Guthrie inside the home. And here's that picture right here. Now, when you look at this, you see this kitchen over here, and then there's a window kind of high up here, and there's the undercovered area. And the way you're looking at in that kitchen is about like this. So that means that the kitchen sink and everything is right under here, and then that door is right there. Now, we haven't seen any pictures where we see a door right there until just recently. I just happened to be looking at it after Ashley sent me that image. I thought, well, heck, we got to go see if we can verify whether or not that door is in that position. So if we take a look at this video right here. This is one that was put out, looks like on Forbes CNN video. And this is the slider that goes into that living room area just as you come into the House or maybe family room. I think it's probably the living room. So that's a slider that goes in there. And there's sort of a long entryway down to the arch. Now to the left here where they're about to go into. That's likely Nancy Guthrie's bedroom slider. So this is on that little sort of secluded patio. And there, you see it right there. There is the bedroom slider. Now, let me continue forward around the house here. And then this guy right here comes walking out from under here. Now, I didn't notice it before, but look right there. There's a door. And that matches exactly where you would predict the door would be based on an image.

[Ashley Banfield]

There's another back door that goes into the family room behind that outdoor patio. And then there's a third back door that goes to a garage or a storage room. At least that's what the old plans say. So there's three back doors. And if you listen to Savannah's answer, you will hear her refer to back doors, plural being open. Take a listen.

[Savannah Guthrie]

And my sister called me, and I said, is everything okay? And she said, no. She said, mom's missing. And I said, what? Yeah. What are you talking about? She said, she's gone. And she was in a panic. I was in a panic. I'm like, Call 911. She's like, I did. We called them. They're here. And we thought that she must have had, like, some kind of medical episode in the night, and that somehow, you know, the paramedics had come because the back doors were propped open, you know, and that didn't make any sense. We thought maybe they came and there was a stretcher, and they took her out the back. But her phone was there and her purse was there and all her things, and it just didn't make any sense. So, you know, Annie and Tommy had already called all the hospitals. But then I'm like, I'm gonna call the hospital. So then I started calling the hospitals, and the police were there and talking to her at the same time. And it was just chaos and disbelief.

[Ashley Banfield]

I was fascinated to hear that on day three of this investigation, my source told me, back door wide open. Now, I've had two other law enforcement sources who've confirmed back door wide open. And here is Savannah saying, back doors, plural, propped open. So just a very interesting piece, you know, to the puzzle for. From Savannah herself. I also want to play for you now what Savannah said about the condition of her mom. We heard early on that the Pima County Sheriff Chris Nanow said that Mrs. Guthrie couldn't walk 50 yards without help. Well, Savannah got more specific about her mom's medical condition and her mobility. Have a listen.

[Savannah Guthrie]

I mean, from the very early moments, you know, Annie and Tommy were saying, this isn't. This isn't that case that you are used to, where someone wanders off. She can't wander off. My mom, she was in tremendous pain. Her back was very bad. You know, she was trying to. On a good day, she could walk down to the mailbox and get the mail, but most days, not. So there was no wander off. And the doors were propped open. Yeah. And there was blood on the front doorstep. And the ring camera had been yanked off. And so we were saying this is.

[Bob Garfield]

Do something.

[Savannah Guthrie]

This is not okay. Yeah, this isn't. Something is very wrong here.

[Alex Kanchowitz]

Yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

Did you hear that last bit that Savannah said? What? She mentioned that that front doorbell cam had been yanked off. This is still a big mystery. My source on day three said the cameras had been smashed. I took that once we saw the empty bracket to mean maybe smashed off the mount. Maybe something had been smashed off because Fox had reported that there were glass fragments below that front doorbell mount. And then eventually, the mount was seized and taken into evidence, but not for weeks. There is Savannah saying that it was yanked off. And every time I see that perpetrator going back to the garden and pulling up some of the weeds and then holding them in his fists and coming towards the camera, and then you can see his fists working with it. I keep thinking he's using it as a vine to get between the camera and the mount and yank the camera off because you can't get your fingers between it. It's too narrow. The nest cam and the mount are too narrow. They're like the width of a quarter. So I kept. And I wonder if Savann thought that, too, or saw different video than we saw or more video than we saw. Who knows? But maybe she's come to that conclusion that that camera was yanked off. Just a very interesting detail at a time when there are so few details. Obviously, this is such a painful interview for Savannah. I think every day is just excruciating. And she's already mentioned that at night, she wakes up every night, and that it's excruciatingly painful. Savannah then talked about how. Look, we've all asked the question, right? Why did this happen? Who took Mrs. Guthrie and why? Who wanted Nancy Guthrie and why? And many of us have wondered, is it because of her famous daughter? Right? And early on, Those ransom notes made us feel like this must have been why, you know, you're stealing her and then you're sending this family ransom notes. Because maybe you know that, that Nancy Guthrie had a wealthy famous daughter in television. And Savannah talks about that and about how she had a conversation with her brother about that. And she steps into the portion about what we've all wondered, like how much guilt must she have felt. I'm using that word. She's not. But you can see in her pain how she is struggling with this. Take a look.

[Savannah Guthrie]

I mean, my siblings are so amazing. My brother, you know, he spent his career in the military and worked in intelligence and fighter pilot and is brilliant. And he saw very clearly right away what this was. And even on the phone when I called him, he knew.

[Bob Garfield]

He knew.

[Savannah Guthrie]

And he said, I think she's been kidnapped for ransom. And I said, yeah, what? Well, why? What? And then, I mean, it sounds so, like, how dumb could I be? But I just, I didn't want to believe. I just said, do you think because of me? And he said, I'm sorry, sweetie, but yeah, maybe, but I knew that you did. I hope not. I mean, we still don't know. Honestly, we don't know anything. We don't know anything. So I don't know that it's because she's my mom and somebody thought, oh, that girl, that lady has money we can get. Make a quick buck. I mean, that would make sense. But we don't know. But yeah, that's probably. Which is too much to bear to think that I brought this to her bedside, that it's because of me. And I just say, I'm so sorry, mommy, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry to my sister and my brother and my kids and my nephew and Tommy, my brother in law, just, I'm like, so sorry. I'm so sorry if it is me, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

[Ashley Banfield]

One other detail that Savannah released today was in furtherance to what she mentioned in one of her Instagram posts, which was my mom was taken from her bed in the dark of night. Now she's going further and giving details about what her mom was wearing when she was taken from that home. Take a listen.

[Savannah Guthrie]

How is it possible that we are having to make a video speaking to a kidnapper who took an 84 year old woman in the dead of night in her pajamas, with no shoes, without her medicine, this little person and to beg for mercy?

[Ashley Banfield]

That's new. Pajamas and no shoes. That is new information because I think about Mrs. Guthrie being taken. If she was walking that stone path off of her front entrance, her tiled front entrance, outside her front door, that would not be the kind of thing you'd want to walk on with bare feet, without shoes. So it's painful to think about, you know, an 84 year old woman being forced to walk over those stones without her shoes or God forbid, being carried for whatever reason. But that is a detail we didn't know.

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This is Mike Volo of Lexicon Valley

[Bob Garfield]

and I'm Bob Garfield. Are you one of those people who sometimes uses words?

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So join us on Lexicon Valley to chew over the history, culture and many mysteries of English, plus some wisecracks.

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Find us on one of those apps where people listen to podcasts.

[Alex Kanchowitz]

Hi, this is Alex Canceroitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology, I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon, and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Ashley Banfield]

And Savannah spoke specifically about the whole ransom piece because we're in well into the end of week eight right now, you know, and many of us have sort of felt as though the ransom peace has fallen away. There hasn't been any mention of it. The ransom. The alleged ransom seekers never gave proof of life, never gave a second communication to say, okay, well, this deadline has passed. Now we'll give you a proof of life or a photo. And that's all that Savannah and her siblings asked for. Right. If you're real, you have to tell us that you're real, and you have to give us proof that you have my mother. And so she speaks to the ransom piece, because while we may have all moved on from it, it doesn't feel like Savannah has.

[Savannah Guthrie]

There are a lot of different notes, I think, that came, and I think most of them, it's my understanding, are not real, and I didn't see them. But, you know, a person that would send a fake ransom note really has to look deeply at themselves.

[Bob Garfield]

Yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

To a family in pain. But I believe the two notes that we received that we responded to,

[James or Dan (No Such Thing as a Fish Podcast)]

I

[Savannah Guthrie]

tend to believe those are real, really.

[Ashley Banfield]

We've talked on this podcast and many other people's podcasts have spoken about. This is when we got the ring cam video from the FBI showing that masked intruder at the front door. It was absolutely terrifying. I remember the day. I remember someone saying, my God, it looks like a scene out of the movie Fargo. It's so scary. Just this terrifying mass, man. And then we went further to imagine, once we learned from Savannah that her mom had been taken from her bed. What must that have been like? The fear that you can't even imagine opening your eyes and seeing that when you're in your safest space. Right. Not only in your home, but in your bed. And Savannah addressed that directly.

[Savannah Guthrie]

I mean, it's just absolutely terrifying. It's just totally terrifying. And I can't imagine that that is who she saw standing over her bed. Yeah, I can't. It's too much. Yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

Savannah made note about what could only be sort of thought of as the upside to at least having that video. Right. We've got a suspect. At least some details. Right. Some forensic details, something to put out to the public to get tips. That's a huge upside. But there was the other one where she said, you know, early on, I had a source in the police who said that the investigators were focusing on her brother in Law. Right. And they towed her sister's car. They searched her sister's house, they photographed at night, they canvassed her sister's neighbor. And so a lot of the press went over to her sister and her brother in law's home. The investigation has to do that. Every investigation has to do that. Right. But that was very difficult for Savannah and she made a mention of how this image at least tamped down a lot of the speculation about her family. Have a listen.

[Savannah Guthrie]

And I'm glad and grateful to the investigators and the technology companies that were able to find that video. Do I hope at least with people of good heart and compassion, stop the irresponsible and cruel speculation that had started to swirl. Let's talk about that for a minute. I'm glad that people saw. Yeah. What came to our door. When you talk about the cruel speculation, the whispers, the innuendo that it was somebody in your family, how did you weather that? It's unbearable. And it piles pain upon pain. There are no words. There are no words I don't understand. I'll never understand. And no one took better care of my mom than my sister and brother in law. And no one protected my mom more than my brother.

[Ashley Banfield]

Obviously, Savannah is a woman of faith and she has made, you know, many mentions of how her faith has been helping her. She's mentioned it in her Instagram posts. She has asked God for help. She has written a book about how faith has guided her in life. And she also told Hoda that the goodness and kindness of God is remarkable and an equal measure to my sorrow, meaning that balance of how horrible it's been and how wonderful God has been to her in all of this and helping get her through it. And to that end, Savannah also mentioned that God has spoken to her in all of this and what she said really is profound in how Savannah has been processing this. Take a listen.

[Savannah Guthrie]

As I said to myself, I can handle anything, God, I can handle anything. I just can't handle not knowing. We can't handle not knowing.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

I have to know. And I heard a voice and it said, you do know where she is? Is. She's with me. She's with me. So whether she is on this earth still or whether she is in heaven, I know where she is. I know who she's with, But we need to know.

[Ashley Banfield]

Savannah also spoke about the home, the family home, and if you didn't already know this, this was where she and her siblings grew up. She even talked about how when she was 16 years old, she came home and her mom and her sister Annie were on the couch crying because they were about to tell her that her father had just died suddenly. Just an earth shattering moment in the Guthrie family. Something that she said actually helped her mother prepare Savannah and her two siblings for difficulties in life. Obviously, this one being the most difficult. But here's how she talks about this Tucson home, their. Their family home, and how special it was to her mom.

[Savannah Guthrie]

My mom loved and treasured that house. In good years and years, they were able to hold onto that house. That's my mom's safe haven. It's really hard to see that violated. And the terror, the terror that she must have felt is unbearable. It's unbearable.

[Ashley Banfield]

Hoda also asked Savannah about the decision to finally get on a plane and go back home to New York. I mean, imagine yourself for a moment. You've been living this nightmare for weeks and weeks on end in a temporary residence with your siblings with no answers. Total confusion and terror, missing your mom wondering. And your mind would race to the worst things. And eventually you have these children and a life and a family and a job and everything back up in New York that you're going to have to return to. But that decision of when and how hard that decision must have been. But here's how that part of the conversation went.

[Savannah Guthrie]

I looked out the window of the airplane, just thought, where are you?

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah,

[Savannah Guthrie]

that desert, that beautiful desert that she. She loves. Where are you? How could I leave you?

[Ashley Banfield]

One of the difficult things Savannah mentioned was that she moved houses many times. We hadn't known that either. We knew that originally she'd been staying at her sister's home and then moved to a very private and secluded place, but we didn't know that she had moved many times. And then Hoda asked her a very specific question about how she thinks the investigation is going. Because I read a comment earlier in Underneath in the podcast, one of the podcasts I'd released, and someone said, have you noticed that there's been no mention about the sheriff and the work that the sheriff's doing? And I started to wonder, I wonder how Savannah feels about that. And Hoda asked her directly, well, it's still going.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Yeah. And people have worked tirelessly, tirelessly. And we see that. But we need answers. We cannot be at peace without knowing. And someone can do the right thing.

[Ashley Banfield]

She definitely needs answers. More than any of us, Savannah and her family need these answers. But are they going to get them? And when? How long? And so this is the key, right? As we move forward and we watch what's happening with the Pima County Sheriff's Department and the FBI and the task force that they've assembled, which is small, hell of a lot smaller than the 400 investigators several weeks ago. Now we're down to maybe a dozen or so, you know, maybe five or six from the Pima County Sheriff's Department who now work in the Tucson field office of the FBI with, I don't know, a handful. They haven't given us the numbers. But it's the Tucson field office, it's not the Phoenix one. Many of the agents returned back to the. To the field office in, in Phoenix. So the atrophying of a case is real. It's a thing. It is the natural order of things in an investigation because crimes continue and other crimes need investig. And to that end, a source in the investigation has said, and this is a direct quote, when asked, you know, where does the investigation stand? The direct quote is, we ain't got shit. That's one of the investigators in the investigation, we ain't got shit. And it is hard to hear that because all the while I have imagined that they've got really strong leads that they are pursuing that they're close to getting right. Like Coburger, we did not know they were following him across the country, that they pulled his father's garbage and that they were parked outside his door and that they were grabbing him until they grabbed him. Like we didn't know all that was happening under the surface of the water, where the ducks paddle under the water feverishly. But it's calm up above and you don't know. We did not know that. And I assumed that was happening in this case. I assumed that there's something, something happening with this task force, that they're getting closer. But then to hear that we ain't got shit, that dashed a lot of my optimism for now. Because I know there are ebbs and flows. There are ebbs and flows. And I know that because I talk to people like Paul Holes. Paul is a former cold case investigator for the Contra Costa County Sheriff's Office, and he is well known across this country, around the world for his work solving the Golden State Killer case. Took upwards of four, three to four decades to catch that killer, but they did it right. That trail went cold for weeks, then months, then years, then decades. And he's the guy who was instrumental in helping to bring that case to an end and finding that person and putting him away, despite the fact he was in his 70s. So I called him about the we ain't got shit comment, right? Should I be optimistic, should I be dashed about this investigation at week eight? And he's got some really interesting things to say about that. So you're going to hear his his, well, his perspective on a what it means, b where it's going C how things draw down in the natural order of investigations as life continues and other crimes continue and the taxpayers need resources elsewhere, how things shrin shrink when they expand, how they shrink again. So he's going to tell you about that in reference to the Guthrie investigation, but also I asked him a few other things about my source and the information I learned earlier this week, which was that the blood pattern outside the front door, which is on the entrance way of her home, outside her front door, the blood spatter pattern that goes down the front walkway, how my source said it is replicated inside the home, right over the threshold and into the front entrance hallway, foyer. However you describe the front entrance of someone's home as you get inside that those blood droplet patterns are identical right there. I've learned where in the house that blood was, and it's right inside the front entrance of the home, the foyer, the hallway, whatever it is, but nowhere else.

[Event Announcer]

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[Mike Volo]

This is Mike Volo of Lexicon Valley

[Bob Garfield]

and I'm Bob Garfield. Are you one of those people who sometimes uses words?

[Mike Volo]

Do you communicate or acquire information with, you know, language?

[James or Dan (No Such Thing as a Fish Podcast)]

Hey, us too.

[Bob Garfield]

So join us on Lexicon Valley to chew over the history, culture and many mysteries of English, plus some rice cracks.

[Mike Volo]

Find us on one of those apps where people listen to podcasts.

[Ashley Banfield]

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[James or Dan (No Such Thing as a Fish Podcast)]

Hi there we are. James and Dan. 2 thoughts of the Hit UK Podcast no such Thing as a Fish.

[Mike Volo]

Each week we get around the microphones with our four favorite facts that we've learned over the last seven days and sit down to blow each other's minds.

[James or Dan (No Such Thing as a Fish Podcast)]

Yeah, here's a fact for you, Dan. Yep, in knot theory, a circle of rope without a knot is technically a knot, but it's called a knot knot. Very good.

[Mike Volo]

I got on here as well. In 2019, a marathon runner with the words Jesus saves written on his bib had a heart attack but was revived by a man called Jesus.

[James or Dan (No Such Thing as a Fish Podcast)]

That is amazing. If you want to hear more facts like that, search for no Such Thing as a Fish. Wherever you get your podcast,

[Ashley Banfield]

it starts there at that front entrance. Inside it goes over the threshold and outside onto the outdoor patio tiles and then down the walkway. So I asked Paul about that because it turns out Paul is also a blood spatter expert, so he's going to weigh in on that. Then I also asked Paul before Savannah spoke about the well, Savannah's words were the back doors were propped open. She said it twice. Was she being colloquial with propped? Because three different law enforcement investigators and sources of mine have said back door wide open. There are three. I know I said two. In another podcast, we have since discovered a door you can't see in any of the pictures or video, but it's a door that goes into the kitchen sideways to the house. If you're looking from the backyard at the back of the house, it's a perpendicular door, so you cannot see it unless you were to look over at it. But it enters into the back patio where the patio furniture is in the backyard, and there are three doors. And she said back doors propped open. Did she mean left open or propped with something and plural? She said it twice and said the plural doors twice. It was very interesting. I asked Paul Holes about this news that I had broken earlier this week that the back doors had regularly been Left Unlocked by Mrs. Guthrie. This was just sort of a habit. She didn't always lock those back doors, plural. And I asked Paul to weigh in on that as well in terms of a victimology and, you know, suspectology, if there was such a thing, how they factor that information into the investigation. So with all that, here's my conversation with Paul Holz. Paul, what do you make of this information that I've uncovered from a source saying one of the investigators is heard saying, quote, we ain't got shit

[Bob Garfield]

you know, it's having worked many different types of cases. And right now, with the Nancy Guthrie case, I would put this in this whodunit category. And these cases sometimes can resolve quickly, sometimes can take weeks, sometimes can take years. So just because you have an inside source saying, we ain't got shit right now, after, what, seven weeks, we're into eight.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, eight weeks.

[Bob Garfield]

You know, this is not atypical for this type of case for a variety of region reasons, because, you know, sometimes comprehensive forensic testing can take months. You may be following various investigative leads that dead end, and then you have to back up and then go down different paths. Sometimes it's a matter of the right tip hasn't come in. So right now, even though we have this situation, Nancy Guthrie, there's an exigency because the hope is she's still alive. And you want to get that information that in those investigative leads, that will get her home safe. But the reality is, is that in these who done it Cases, it can take a long time if the offender is actually doing things to try to prevent himself from being caught. And. And I believe that's what's happening in this case.

[Ashley Banfield]

You know, it just makes me think, have you ever heard of a case, seen a case, read about a case where an offender steals an old woman to keep the old woman for weeks or months? Have you ever seen it happen for any reason and never asked for anything back? Like, never asked for money or. Or some kind of connection to the family? Just had no ulterior motive?

[Bob Garfield]

No. You know, I. You know, we've. We've talked before about this case. You know, the offender, he communicated with the media that he abducted Nancy for ransom. He. This was his communication. He is controlling the narrative. I want money. However, you know, when I take a look at the circumstances and this is. I still stand by this opinion. When I see him in that costume, you know, on the front porch, I'm looking at that going, that does not look right at all. He wants to be seen. He's misdirecting. So, you know, he is trying to lead the investigation down a certain path. And then I'm looking at it going, you know what? Don't look at this as an abduction ransom case. I think he possibly had some personal connection to Nancy and he went to the house to harm her. And so when I heard, you know, an inside source that you've developed that we don't have anything on this case. So it's like, okay, so what was the assumption? Let's back up. You guys may have followed a certain investigative path, a certain forensic path, and it hasn't panned out after almost eight weeks. Let's, you know, resettle. Let's reevaluate and start looking at other possibilities. Possibilities where this offender actually has some level of connection to the family, to Nancy. I, I, I can't tell you where that would be, but he has targeted Nancy for a reason.

[Ashley Banfield]

But it sounds to me like you're talking about him being a mastermind. Like I'm gonna cause play and misdirect and then take her and then send fake ransom notes to TMZ and the local media. Like, that's not a real ransom, you know, seeker. They don't go to the media. They say, don't go to the media, don't go to the police. So aren't you ascribing a lot more to this guy than maybe what he might be capable of?

[Bob Garfield]

Well, but that's also part of what I'm evaluating is, okay, he's going to the media with the ransom. Why is he doing that? Because that complicates his life. He's, that just makes it harder for him to get what he is saying his goal is, which is the financial, you know, assets. You know, all this media attention is not making his life any easier. Him posing in front of the front porch camera is not making his life any issue. He's doing this on purpose. So that's where I thinking you have to take a look at the possibility that his primary goal was to cause harm to Nancy. And why is he doing that? You know, and I think there's, you know, two paths that I would look at. You have the celebrity status of Savannah Guthrie. Then you have maybe a personal interaction that he's had with Nancy, and then he's recognizing, oh, there might be some financial resources that I can potentially exploit in order to misdirect law enforcement. You know, so this is, this is where I think instead of looking at this as an abduction ransom case, I mean, my, my personal opinion opinion is, is that this is very possibly a straight up homicide case. And now he's staging it, making it look like utilizing the media. And when you say, well, is he some sort of criminal mastermind? It's not necessarily being a criminal mastermind. You are now dealing with what I would say is a sophisticated and intelligent offensive offender that is trying to commit a crime that he wants to commit, but also have self preservation. He doesn't want to be caught. You know, so he's, I would say, a more intelligent offender. And we run across these guys consistently. You know, we have dumb offenders, they don't do this level of thing. You know, he at least has a level of intelligence to think things through. Now, criminal mastermind, I, I, you know, the posing in front of the front porch camera in that costume, I'd go, oh, no, he's not a criminal mastermind, but he at least has a level of sophistication to know how to manipulate the investigation and how to manipulate the media.

[Ashley Banfield]

Hmm. Well, one of the, I mean, who knows what the investigators are doing in the background? All we can say is that at one point within the last seven and a half weeks, they had 400 people working this case. And now as we go into month two, we know there's a task force, it has a half dozen or less homicide members from Pima county and then an unknown number from the FBI, all of them in the Tucson field office. The rest of the FBI have pulled back to the Phoenix FBI field office. And so that tells me that it ain't 400. Right?

[Bob Garfield]

Right.

[Ashley Banfield]

But now what happens? Like when you hear we ain't got shit? When, when does the investigation atrophy further? How does it atrophy further? When does it go down to we have one guy who watches it every other day or when a lead comes in?

[Bob Garfield]

You know, that's, that's actually very hard to predict. Especially with such a high profile case. You know, the Pima county sheriff's office is going to have limited resources. You know, I don't know exactly what size that sheriff's office is, you know, but they, they can only do so much. And they're going to have other active cases coming in in which these investigators are going to have to be pulled off the, the Guthrie case in order to handle because they're going to have active public safety things that they, they need to be dealing with. You know, the FBI, the FBI has amazing manpower, amazing resources. However, the FBI, they don't investigate homicide cases on a routine basis. That's why it's always best we don't know.

[Ashley Banfield]

We don't know if it's homicide.

[Bob Garfield]

True. And I'm not saying it's a homicide, but I would be treating this on a resource level as a homicide. You have to, at this point, 84 year old victim who's been gone for eight weeks, he's no longer asking for anything. Is he taking the time to keep her alive?

[Ashley Banfield]

If, honestly, I have to just jump in because I keep saying this over and over. If he was ever asking for anything in the beginning because in my opinion that ransom was just a bad actor from overseas trying to scam a victimized family. I never believed that the ransom, all the different iterations of ransom seeking had anything to do with the actual crime other than someone trying to profit off it.

[Bob Garfield]

Yeah, it won. And I think I completely agree with you with what I know about the case is that, you know, I don't think this is an abduction ransom case, unfortunately, you know, so this is where.

[Ashley Banfield]

What would be the purpose of a homicide though? 84 year old woman with no demands, with nothing. I mean, no sort of, I don't know, no letter to say, ha, I gotcha. It just doesn't seem to be any reason. What would you see as a purpose for a homicide if it's a homicide?

[Bob Garfield]

There's so many motives, you know, you know, fundamentally when you, when you take a look at it. And as far as I know, there isn't any indication that he stole anything out of the house, you know, so this isn't a, you know, like a, a burglary for property theft that went sideways, you know, so now I think it's more a personal interaction, you know, he had a vendetta against Nancy or they're, you know, you know, and I, I don't, I don't want to put too much weight on this, but you also have to consider, and I've worked these types of cases, we do have women this age that are sexually assaulted and killed. So, you know, there's that possibility. However, you know, the offender, potentially by removing her out of the house, that elevates his risk because now he has a victim inside his vehicle. So why is he doing that? You always have to consider why is the offender doing an action or a behavior that causes his risk to be elevated?

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, if it is that, and I am with you, we have talked about geriatric rape on this program. It's a thing and it's hard to believe. People need to understand it is real, it does happen. Yeah. And I've said it before. The statistic that was given to me by a prominent homicide prosecutor in California said that the percentage of perpetrators of geriatric rape in their 20s, it's 92%. 92% of the geriatric rapists are in their, rapists are in their 20s, so it is a thing. But I think when you said he elevates his risk by taking her out of the house, I think he mitigates his risk because, you know, rape is a very, very hard thing to keep your DNA from showing up well, and

[Bob Garfield]

maybe he recognized that after he committed the crime, you know, or knew it in advance. Yeah. So it all depends on the dynamics of the violence that occurred, you know, so if he recognized that, oh, I've left my DNA behind, I need to remove the source of the DNA, and that's removing Nancy's body out of the house. Then, yes, he is taking a step to, in his mind, lower the risk. But now he has a victim in his vehicle, which he could absolutely be pulled over in the middle of the night. Right. You know, there's, There, there's aspects that, where I'm looking at it going, okay, there's, there's a possibility that you now are trying to do something that you think is self preservation. However, you are elevating your risk. And, and that's where I just get back to that question of why is he doing that? And it may go back to your question, as he's now recognizing he's left objective identifying DNA evidence on or in Nancy's body, and now he has to take her with him. Absolutely, I, I completely agree with that.

[Ashley Banfield]

But, you know, one thing I didn't think of, and I don't know why I didn't think of it till now, because so often the conversations we've had, it's elevating your risk. If you take a victim and put that victim in your car now, your car is going to be investing. What if it was a stolen car overnight? You know, what if he stole a car overnight, did this dastardly thing and eventually got rid of Nancy's body and then put that car back that next morning or in a day and no one knows? You know, no one's the wiser.

[James or Dan (No Such Thing as a Fish Podcast)]

Hi, there we are. James and Dan. 2 thoughts of the Hit UK podcast, no such thing as a Fish.

[Mike Volo]

Each week we get around the microphones with our four favorite facts that we've learned over the last seven days and sit down to blow each other's minds.

[James or Dan (No Such Thing as a Fish Podcast)]

Yeah, here's a fact for you, Dan.

[Bob Garfield]

Yep.

[James or Dan (No Such Thing as a Fish Podcast)]

In knot theory, a circle of rope without a knot is technically a knot, but it's called a. Not. Not very good.

[Mike Volo]

I go on here as well. In 2019, a marathon runner with the words Jesus saves written on his bib had a heart attack, but was revived by a man called Jesus.

[James or Dan (No Such Thing as a Fish Podcast)]

That's amazing. If you want to hear more facts like that, search for no such thing as a fish. Wherever you get your podcasts,

[Bob Garfield]

it's possible. You know, I've got cases in which offenders have stolen vehicles, they switch license plates you know, they did their crime, then they switched license plates back, and then they. They dump the car, you know, and. And sometimes these cars are set on fire. Sometimes. I had one car end up in Tijuana. You know, it's. It's. So, you know, that. That is all a possibility, but that also is informative about the criminal history of the. The offender. Typically, you know, this isn't your novice criminal offender. If he's doing that, he understands the system and then knows how to get rid of something like a stolen vehicle.

[Ashley Banfield]

Let me tell you, my street was burglarized. All the cars on my street burglarized. And it turns out the vehicle with the kids in it was stolen. So the dumb kids even knew enough to steal a car to commit their crimes. And it makes me think, if anyone's watching right now, if you happen to be in the Tucson area, if you remember something weird about your vehicle, I mean, it was parked in a different place the next morning on February 1st, or, you know, something was odd, there was dirt on it you didn't recognize, and you just. You can't get past what the heck happened, and you think your friend took it, and you can't get over that. Your friend won't admit it. It might be worth calling the police. It might be worth calling 1-800-FBI because, you know, it's entirely possible this guy stole a car, did his crimes, put that car back, and he's walking free.

[Bob Garfield]

No, no, absolutely. And I would say, if you have something like that that you remember, open up the trunk of your car or the back seat and shine a flashlight and see if you can see some dark stains, because Nancy's bleeding, and it's possible she bled in this vehicle she was transported in. And if. If the vehicle has darker fabric, that blood is not going to be very readily visible. I've experienced that myself. So you have to really look.

[Ashley Banfield]

So as a investigator, if there's somebody watching right now who thinks, geez, you know what? I couldn't figure out what the hell went on February 1st. I had that weird thing happen. My vehicle was parked different, and I assume my wife did it. But then she said she didn't, and I figured she was playing prank. Whatever it is, what exposure does somebody have? If they call the Pima County Sheriff's department or 1-800-FBI, that's the one I recommend. Now, do they need a lawyer? Because if their car is processed and Nancy's blood is in it and they're the ones that came forward, what exposure do they have. What kind of protection do they need?

[Bob Garfield]

Yales, it usually becomes very obvious very early on. If, I mean, you think about this. What, what offender in this case is going to call up law enforcement and

[Ashley Banfield]

say, hey, it's a nice cover, it's a nice cover.

[Bob Garfield]

But you know what? It's not a difficult thing to resolve. Typically with innocent people, you know, you are doing the right thing by coming forward and saying, hey, I recognize this. I heard details, you know, on Ashley Banfield show. And I thought, hey, you know what? I think, you know, maybe there's something going on here and you will be interviewed for sure. And, and law enforcement is going to kind of take a look at your background and where you were at and everything else and, and, and stuff. But, you know, if you're truly innocent, that's not going to be a factor at all. I mean, it'll be very easily cleared, you hope.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, I mean, we've certainly had innocent people put away. But you're right. What kind of a guilty person's going to call up and say, oh, hey,

[Bob Garfield]

but it is a guy, and not this guy. I mean, look at, look at what he's doing now. I mean, he, you know, put out there. I, you know, maybe he's the one that communicated. Maybe it's like what you said. He, you know, somebody else online took advantage of the situation. This guy doesn't want to get caught. He doesn't want to get, you know, any law enforcement attention. And if he were to call law enforcement under some sort of ruse as being an innocent person, it's going to be pretty easy to, to sort him out.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, yeah. There's so many electronic alibis now as well. Not just if you live alone and you were sleeping that night, your watch will tell everybody whether you were sleeping. Your phone, your front door, you know, did it open, it close? I mean, there's all sorts of things that can end your, you know, the video and your street that can see so much. Let me ask you. I mean, I feel like I've almost exhausted the question that I can't get out of my mind, and that is this investigator saying, we ain't got shit. I was so sad when I heard that because I'm not kidding, Paul. I really did believe that. There's, you know, I keep calling it the duck theory. There's this calm little duck floating on the surface of the water and nothing's happening. And then down below their little paddles are going like mad and we can't see it. I assumed that was this Investigation. And actually, I asked my husband about it over dinner and he said, wait, there aren't 400 officers or 400 people working on that case anymore. I mean, I think a lot of people don't realize it's atrophied down to a small task force and it will get smaller. It's just how and when do they make those decisions? What, what makes those decisions for them?

[Bob Garfield]

Well, there's, you know, there's a lot of factors, you know, of course, you know, primarily it comes down to each agency, what their level of resources are, you know, how many cases they're having to handle. You know, the, if you're talking about a sheriff's office, you know, the sheriff has, you know, public safety needs that he needs to meet, you know, and at a certain point, if the case is kind of dwindling, then he's going to have to reallocate those resources to handle, you know, other cases that are coming up, you know, and then the feds have the same issue, just in a different capacity, you know. But what I, what I will say is that, you know, this case is going to have legs for sure, and there will be resources dedicated to it.

[Ashley Banfield]

But what kind? Like how many, what sort and for how long?

[Bob Garfield]

Well, in terms of how long? I, I can't, I can't speak to that because it depends on what happens. You know, let's say we have, you know, a major, you know, terrorist action because the Iran war is going on. The FBI is going to be pulled off of this case in order to, to address that. You know, so at this point, you know, I would say natural order of

[Ashley Banfield]

law enforcement is what you're saying, is that, you know, there are other things happening that need our attention and our tax dollars as well.

[Bob Garfield]

Well, and that's where, you know, I, I spent so much time working cold cases, and, you know, many of these cases went cold is because law enforcement resources got directed to current cases. You know, that's just it. You know, there's always more cases that are coming in. And then after a case goes so long and you, like, with this particular case, there's going to be an assessment, okay, what's the public safety threat? You know, do we have a serial rapist? Do we have a serial killer? Do we have a bank robber that's going in and killing people on a weekly basis? That's probably not what this case is. And so as time goes on, law enforcement authorities are going to go, okay, this was a one off. It's not an act of public safety. Threat, we want to solve it. However, resources have to be going to the current state in our jurisdiction to keep the public safe. And that's just the nature of law enforcement. And I know it's frustrating to hear. It's frustrating for me as a cold case investigator going, can't we do something on these older cases? But the reality is, is law enforcement is there for the current situation of keeping the public safe first and foremost. And then you go to the cases that now have some age to them. With Nancy Guthrie's case, the big question mark is, is she still alive or not? And that's where you still will have resources dedicated with the hope that she's still alive.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, and I gotta say, this may sound crazy, but the podcasters come in as well. You know, there's plenty of podcasters out there who have actually really crowdsourced a lot of leads and details and solutions. Gabby Petito was found because of a podcaster, I think the Elgin, Illinois Police Department, they put out the podcast, I think it's called Somebody Knows Something. And they were able to find the car of a long missing woman who was dead under, you know, a river at the bottom of a river. So there. There are alternate means to continue the heat, so to speak. But being on your side of law enforcement and knowing that there's people like me on the other side here just looking for the information, doesn't it make sense to keep feeding the media so that they will keep the story alive and keep the tips coming in?

[Bob Garfield]

Well, there most certainly is a strategy that law enforcement can continue to employ. And, you know, one of the criticisms that I have with law enforcement is they. They have a tendency to circle the, you know, the bandwagon. Right? We're not going to interact with media. And very early on in a case that's appropriate, you have to keep details about the case out of the public domain, because those details may be what is needed in order to be able to successfully solve and process, execute the case. But as the case ages and as, you know, understanding the circumstances, more experienced investigators and agencies start understanding. We need to make sure that we can continue to keep the media and the public informed because there may be a solution as we provide more details. Unfortunately, there's so many agencies that literally put their head in the center sand and never communicate any more from any more details of the case because they just don't have the experience to evaluate how to. I'd call it a seesaw. You know, it's sort of like as time goes on, you need to be able to feed more details. And this. This is where I would say, with this particular case, that seesaw is faster. You need to start feeding more details to the public because you have the public's attention, you have the exigency if Nancy's still alive, in order to see if you can't generate more tips. And, of course, we now have this phenomena of the online sleuths. And I probably have the most experience of anybody with the online sleuthing community because I work Zodiac and I work Golden State Killer, and I was hammered by both, you know, groups, and there's a lot of overlap with them. And there's individuals that have great skill sets that law enforcement doesn't have. You know, then there's individuals that have great intentions and they provide decent information, but then you have a bunch that are just killing us in terms of, you know, misinformation and bad leads that we need to follow up on. So it's very much a pro and con thing. With the online sleuthing thing, you know, with. With the Guthrie case. This is, you know, the. The issue is going to be, is that law enforcement hasn't released a lot of information, so the online sleuths don't have the facts in order to be able to actually go after something that has a next access to the case.

[Ashley Banfield]

Right. And then when Sheriff Nanos does release something, he retracts it, and then it's actually, you know, actually it's actually discovered to be erroneous because people in the community say that actually didn't happen. When he said it did happen, it's just been a big hot mess.

[Bob Garfield]

Well, and I will say, you know, this is where. Yeah. When you have elected sheriffs, I mean, they are way up on the ladder rung. Right. So what ends up happening is the information that they get are coming from detective sergeants that go to a lieutenant, that go to a captain, that go to a commander or assistant sheriff, finally to the sheriff. So now you have the whole telephone game going on, and now he's putting out information as he has been told, and it's already been altered by the time he's hearing it. I've seen that time and time again.

[Ashley Banfield]

That's interesting. So do PIOs go to the base level and get what they need and skip the whole telephone chain?

[Bob Garfield]

PIOs usually speak in terms which they are able to provide information, but it's not where somebody can go, oh, no, you're wrong here. You know, PIOs are very, very good at at least providing information that the Media is going, okay, we're good. Without getting down into the details where now people are fact checking them.

[Ashley Banfield]

Right, Right. And they do obfuscate. And I know they have a hard job. I've worked with them for 38 years. So. Okay, so it's obvious that the natural order of things will show that this task force will get smaller eventually, that those who are assigned to the case will be reassigned. And eventually, you know, this case might have one or two or three or even just one person on it, which is. Is hard for anybody. Everybody who's so invested in this, particularly the Guthrie family, that's hard for them to realize. But like you said, it's the natural order. Talk to me a little bit about the other news that my source told me this week. A couple things. First and foremost, that the family has told the police that Nancy Gus III rarely locked her back doors. And I want to make a correction. I said this earlier, but I want to make a correction. She has three back doors. Two of them are visible with the drone shots that have gone around the back of the house. One of them is not visible because it's vertical. You know, it's perpendicular to the picture, so you can't see it. But there is a third back door. So now, knowing there's three back doors that Nancy Guthrie apparently rarely locked her back doors, how does that, in your opinion, affect the way investigators go about this case, knowing that this perpetrator got in somehow?

[Bob Garfield]

Well, obviously that, you know, unlocked doors are an easy thing for offenders to be able to go through. And, and we see it commonly with, you know, serial burglars, serial rapists. They literally will walk through neighborhoods goods and just randomly start checking doors, going from house to house. And the house that has an unlocked door, they go in on that exact

[Ashley Banfield]

visit, or will they check and then note it for later?

[Bob Garfield]

It depends. It really depends on the offender. We have offenders that will just go in, you know, and, and. And victimize.

[Ashley Banfield]

So it's the randomness of whoever on that block left the door open, no matter whether there's seven people in the house or one people, one person living there.

[Bob Garfield]

Absolutely. You know, this is Sacramento, man.

[Ashley Banfield]

That's. That's high risk.

[Bob Garfield]

What is? You know, but this is where, you know, you are dealing with offenders that are willing to do this, you know, and sometimes it's. It's a simple neighborhood burglar who's only interested in property crime, and he's just going around and he's checking front doors or he's checking the rear slider. And then when he finds something, he goes in. If there's a dog barking inside, he moves on to the next house because he has a hundred houses that he can go into. So, you know, when you start talking about Nancy's victimology, about leaving these rear doors open, you know.

[James or Dan (No Such Thing as a Fish Podcast)]

Hi, there we are. James and Dan. 2 thoughts of the Hit UK podcast, no such thing as a Fish.

[Mike Volo]

Each week, we get around the microphones with our four favorite facts that we've learned over the last seven days and sit down to blow each other's minds.

[James or Dan (No Such Thing as a Fish Podcast)]

Yeah, here's a fact for you, Dan.

[Bob Garfield]

Yep.

[James or Dan (No Such Thing as a Fish Podcast)]

In knot theory, a circle of rope without a knot is technically a knot, but it's called a knot knot. Very good.

[Mike Volo]

I go on here as well. In 2019, a marathon runner with the words Jesus saves written on his bib had a heart attack, but was revived by a man called Jesus.

[James or Dan (No Such Thing as a Fish Podcast)]

That is amazing. If you want to hear more facts like that, search for no such thing as a fish wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bob Garfield]

If this offender targeted Nancy, it's possible ahead of time. He started doing surveillance. He started doing security checks. He started trying to figure out, you know, how I can easily get into the house. The easier they can get in the house, the better it is for the offender. Now, if I remember right from a previous conversation we had, I think there were multiple security cameras throughout the property that have been smashed, Right?

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, my source told me early on, plural nest cams smashed. And then we learned later on they were nest cams. We also learned later on that the front nest cam was off its mount and gone. And Michael Ruiz from Fox News Digital said that there were glass shards seen underneath or glass fragments seen underneath the camera mount. And we saw spotlights in the back that clearly had been smashed and were dangling. So I can't tell you if multiple cameras had been smashed. A source said it. We saw at least spotlight smashed, and we saw one camera at the front smashed or taken or whatever off its mount and others that had been left by. By the perpetrator and by the cops.

[Bob Garfield]

Well, and, and, and so, okay, let's. Let's make the assumption Nancy had multiple cameras distributed throughout her property. Multiple cameras were smashed. You have multiple points of entry with these doors that were unlocked in the backside or the side parts of this house. And I know it's somewhat of a complex layout with this house. The offender is taking an action to prevent being seen with these other cameras. And yet he walks up to her front porch and pretends like, oh, there's a camera Here, what am I going to do with this camera? I'll get some, you know, shrubs and try to cover it up. I mean, for me, it just is so telling and so obvious that the offender wanted to be seen on that front porch wearing that costume. Costume. This is staging. He took all the other steps needed to obscure how he got into the house, how he possibly got out of the house. Maybe, you know, by smashing these other cameras, he has knowledge about this property. That's where that video surveillance of him on the front porch is so compelling to me and tells me he, he is sitting here trying to make this crime look like something that it is not. And it's, oh, I'm the bad guy here with a gun and I'm going in to abduct Nancy and ask for ransom. Well, no, that wasn't his true intent. He went in there to hurt Nancy.

[Ashley Banfield]

Do you think it's possible that this guy had worked in that backyard once, twice, many times before, saw the pattern that those doors don't get locked every time she goes in and out of them, and returned that night, but decided to do the camera in the front end so that he could take her out that way? And you never saw his car leave. It's less about trying not to be on camera. It's more about making sure his car, once he takes her out that front door and loads her in the car, isn't seen on camera.

[Bob Garfield]

That's. That's a possibility for the camera. But I think you're spot on. And this is what I've been saying from the very beginning is, you know what, this guy, if, if I'm right and he is staging this crime, you know, you have to go back possibly two years. Who are the delivery drivers, who worked for UPS, FedEx, who are the mailman, who were the contractors that did work in Nancy's house, who were the landscapers that did work on her property or

[Ashley Banfield]

whatever, you know, electricians, heating, cooling. I mean, there's untold number of servicemen that come and work on a, you know, a single older woman's home.

[Bob Garfield]

And, and I don't know, you know, what Nancy's house is like on the inside. I have a case in which some gang bangers were working for a delivery service. They went in and delivered a lamp in a upper end neighborhood, and they saw all the nice stuff inside that, that house. And a week later they came back and ultimately the husband, the homeowner, was killed as he was trying to save his wife. You don't know who you're letting into your house. And that's where I'm looking at this going, okay, if. If he is. If he is misdirecting this. If he's recognizing, oh, this family has. Well, he may not even know anything about Savannah Guthrie. He may just have been in Nancy's house going, oh, wow, there's a lot of nice stuff in here. You know, they got assets, but decided that she was going to be a victim because she fit something. Either she, you know, had an. A negative interaction with him, maybe bad words back and forth, or, you know, he saw her and she fit what his sexual fantasies were. And he's going, I'm going to go back there. But I know I can, you know, have law enforcement go down the wrong path because they have money. And so I'm going to say, I want a ransom. I'm going to remove her from the house and have a ransom. That is a distinct possibility. And that's where. If. If I were being pulled into this case, you know, now at this point, I'm going to go, how much? Have you guys considered this possibility, or have you looked at as strictly an abduction ransom case?

[Ashley Banfield]

If the pima county sheriff's department were to reach out to someone like you, with your skills and heaven's sake, you caught the golden state killer after decades, would you go, oh, absolutely.

[Bob Garfield]

You know, this is. You know, this is the type of case that's in my wheelhouse. You know, I understand this type of offender. I would want to get all the information so I could evaluate the offender's actions, the offender's behaviors, the forensic evidence, and maybe be able to provide some insight. You know, I can never say that I'm going to come into a case and solve the case. I am entirely confident I can come into a case and advance. Advance the case.

[Ashley Banfield]

You feel like you could help?

[Bob Garfield]

I absolutely feel I could help for sure.

[Ashley Banfield]

Might you offer your assistance, Paul, or do you want to just sort of wait to see if it's needed?

[Bob Garfield]

You know? You know, the funny thing is, is now that I'm retired, you know, law enforcement sees me as media. So me just calling up and saying, hey, do you want my help? Law enforcement doesn't accept help from media, so somebody would need to recognize that I could contribute versus me just doing a cold call.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, I hope the sheriff starts reaching out soon, because I get scared when I hear we ain't got shit. Maybe it's time to bring in the fresh eyes.

[Bob Garfield]

Yep. Well, I'd be there if they called

[Ashley Banfield]

me in a heartbeat.

[Bob Garfield]

Absolutely.

[Ashley Banfield]

Let's Talk about the, the blood in the front hall entrance inside the home. Because that's another sourced information I got this week. I think it was two podcasts ago or yesterday's podcast. It's blurs day. I'm losing track of days. But my source told me that the originally, there's blood inside the home. Day three, I learned that a couple weeks ago. I learned that the blood pattern outside the home, on the front porch and down the front walk is mirrored inside the home. Same blood pattern exists inside the home, but I didn't know where. And then yesterday or two days ago, I learned that that inside blood pattern is actually just inside the front door. So you go over the hearth, over the threshold of the front door, into that front hallway entrance of Nancy's home, and that's where the blood droplets are, but nowhere else. What, what does that tell you?

[Bob Garfield]

So you know, it's, it's. Without having Nancy and her wounds, you know, it. We always, when you do blood pattern interpretation, you always want to know what you know the wounds are, what was severed, do you have arteries severed, do you have, you know, veins severed, etc. However, with what I saw on the front porch is a dripped pattern. Now there are some other smaller spatter, which might be blood dripping into blood, but at least the media photographs don't give me enough information. But having blood drips inside the, the front door right there in that front entry, that only tells me that I have a bleeding source from Nancy that is dripping blood at that point in time. Now is that, you know, does that occur inside and then she's brought outside or she gets herself outside or vice versa? You can't make that conclusion. However, part of the issue that we deal with is that, okay, when did the bleeding injury occur? And I've worked many stabbing cases and people are stabbed in the chest and there's no blood at the crime scene. They bleed internally and any blood that they're externally bleeding from the stab wounds gets absorbed by the shirt or the whatever type of clothing that they have on. So if we were to make the assumption that the dripped blood inside the house by the front door was the earliest blood drops, all that tells me is that that's the moment in time in which the bleeding source was able to provide enough blood to be able to be deposited. And it may have been immediately. She could have been hit on the head, pistol whipped. Now she has a laceration to her skull. Now she's dripping blood from her scalp inside that front door. And then she goes outside. She could have been stabbed in the chest, in the bedroom, and now she's been carried out and now the blood has saturated the garment that she has on and now it's dripping. We can't conclude anything based on that. Outside is we don't have motion, we don't have, let's say a cut finger and Nancy's flailing. And now we have like cast off type patterns or we have spatter because we now have a blow to a pooled blood source.

[Ashley Banfield]

It's super frustrating. And also I keep using the word vexing because every time I think I find something out that might be informative in the investigation, it just has a million more questions that attach to it. Like when I discovered that there was blood just inside the door and nowhere else, I thought, aha, now we're getting somewhere. But maybe not.

[Bob Garfield]

No, you know, and this is where, you know, part of my frustration because I was on the other side and I had access to everything when I worked my cases, you know, and so now being more on this side, where I am now, having to, you know, learn from you and learning, learning from the headlines, you know, what are they finding? It's so hard to have a complete picture. And that's where I always caution people, is that, you know, law enforcement generally has a lot more knowledge about the, the case than what they're letting on. You know, the hope is, is that there's, you know, some direction that they're able to take that's going to solve the case.

[Ashley Banfield]

You mean paddling underneath the water really, really fast where you can't see it above the water? That's what I thought, Paul. Holes. That's what I thought. At this point I had hoped, I had so much optimism that that was what was happening under the surface. And then I heard, quote, we ain't got.

[Bob Garfield]

Well, they do, you know, and that's where I mean, think about the cases I worked. You know, I work cases 30, 40 years old. I didn't have video surveillance, valence cam of the guy, you know, standing in front on the front porch. I didn't have digital markers on when, you know, for timelines. I didn't have the guy communicating. This is where you have to get back down to the core. The core of the case is assessing victimology. It's assessing the forensic evidence. It's going to be assessing the behavioral actions of the offender and going, are we on the right path? And you know, today, you know, the, the forensic aspect, I, that's one of the first things I'd focus in on. If I were pulled, being pulled in this case, I'd be going, what have you done? You know, have you processed her bed sheets, her comforter, her pillowcases for everything possible? You know, that's likely. If I understand Nancy's victimology, her hearing aids were taken out. She's likely asleep. That's where the offender is first interacting with her. You may not see blood there. What else are do you have? Have you even collected hair evidence? In this day and age, even with shed hair, we have the possibility of identifying who shed that hair. Have you gone after that? Where else in the house do you see disturbances where you think the offender may have interacted? You have to do that. And so, you know, like, if I were advising the sheriff and, and whoever from the FBI is involved, it's like, okay, let's, so let's, let's, let's kind of do what I would call like an audit of the investigation. You know, what has been done, what investigative tracks have we gone down, what forensic tracks have we gone down? What voids do we have? And then if those voids are significant, we need to go down those now because maybe our initial assumptions of what happened in the this case were wrong.

[Ashley Banfield]

I'm literally writing down, is it time for an audit of this investigation with people like Paul Holes who have done this kind of thing before? Thank you so much for all your time and your expertise. I, you know, I call you all the time and I'm not going to stop.

[Bob Garfield]

I appreciate you, Ashley. Thank you very much for staying on top of this case.

[Ashley Banfield]

So there you have it. Obviously there's so much more to this investigation. We don't know. I repeat this every time we have an episode. 1-800- call FBI if you know anything. 1-800- call FBI. And specifically that piece that I talked to Paul about, if you're in the Tucson area, did something happen with your car on the night of January 31st to February 1st? Did your car look like it was missing or parked differently or just something odd? That might be something, you know, like check it, go back in your memory. Did you have a weird thing happen with your car? Is it possible your car could have been stolen, used in a crime and returned? That's something, too. Like all of these little things. Something is going to break this case, hopefully, but you can be a part of it. 1-800- call FBI. All right, so as far as the interview with Savannah, there is more. It's coming tomorrow. That would be Friday, March 27th. And Hoda specifically mentioned on D Dateline So Friday night on Dateline, make sure you tune in to hear the rest of what Savannah had to say and maybe there's more details that she is able to talk about that we haven't yet learned. In the meantime, thanks so much everyone for listening and for watching and for subscribing. I so appreciate it. And remember, truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.

[James or Dan (No Such Thing as a Fish Podcast)]

Hi there we are. James and Dan. 2 thoughts of the Hit UK Podcast no such Thing as a Fish.

[Mike Volo]

Each week we get around the microphones with our four favorite facts that we've learned over the last seven days and sit down to blow each other's minds.

[James or Dan (No Such Thing as a Fish Podcast)]

Yeah, here's a fact for you, Dan. Yep. In knot theory, a circle of rope without a knot is technically a knot, but it's called a knot knot. Very good.

[Mike Volo]

I go on here as well. In2019, a marathon runner with the words Jesus saves written on his bib had a heart attack but was revived by a man called Jesus.

[James or Dan (No Such Thing as a Fish Podcast)]

It's amazing. If you want to hear more facts like that, search for no such Thing as a Fish Wherever you get your podcasts.