Bombshell Nancy Guthrie Twist: Ransom Note Claims Nancy Was "Buried With Nature"

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield

Episode: Bombshell Nancy Guthrie Twist: Ransom Note Claims Nancy Was "Buried With Nature"

Date: June 23, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Ashleigh Banfield unpacks major new developments in the Nancy Guthrie disappearance—an Arizona kidnapping case that has captivated true crime followers for over 140 days. For the first time, details from the long-rumored second ransom note are reported: the note claimed Nancy died accidentally and was "buried with nature." Ashleigh breaks down the origins and implications of these revelations, examining media hesitancy, the task force's investigative direction, and interviews key players including KOLD News Director Jessica Bobilla and TMZ’s Harvey Levin. The episode is rich with sourced reporting, speculation, and Banfield's frank analysis.

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Key Discussion Points

1. New Reporting on the Second Ransom Note

(Starts ~00:49)

• Timeline Clarification:

  • Nancy Guthrie vanished Feb 1; first ransom note arrived Feb 2 to media outlets (not directly to the family).
  • The second ransom note came four days after the first, exclusively to KOLD in Arizona.

• Emergent Details:

  • Early on, rumors swirled about a note apologizing for an "accidental" death. Until now, these were unreported publicly.
  • Multiple outlets (Airmail, ABC, NewsNation) now confirm that the second note claimed Nancy died shortly after abduction and was "buried with nature."
  • ABC: “The second note, according to sources, said she had died shortly after she was taken and was, quote, ‘buried in nature.’” (07:05)
  • NewsNation: “The note indicated Guthrie’s death was, quote, ‘unintentional,’ and said that she was, quote, ‘buried with nature.’” (07:34)

• Media’s Delay & Scrutiny:

  • Banfield questions why it took 140+ days for these facts to be publicly reported, emphasizing journalism's cautious approach to unconfirmed rumors.
  • Ashleigh expresses concern but relief that the Pima County and FBI task force is still active, though sequestered and tight-lipped.

2. Analysis of Source Interviews and Media Involvement

Jessica Bobilla on the Second Ransom Note
(11:01–15:58)

• Proof of Life: The note provided none (11:17).
• Note Details: KOLD withheld specifics out of respect for the family and at FBI’s request—only confirming an IP address difference from the first note (13:05).
• Submission System: Notes were sent via an anonymous web form, making tracking difficult—names, birth dates, emails were likely fabricated (14:36).
• Digital Forensics Limitations: It’s hard to verify senders; possible that AI or other tools were used (14:05).

Media Reflection:

• Banfield connects Bobilla’s guarded early interview with the now-public revelation of the “apology” and “buried with nature” contents. She also references a video from Nancy’s daughter, Savannah, whose wording seemed to hint at knowledge of Nancy’s likely death.

3. Deep Dive into Task Force and Investigation Trajectory

(17:43–31:49)

• Howard Blum’s Reporting:

  • Task force (FBI/Pima County) is now more focused than ever on the ransom notes, perhaps due to lack of other leads (19:28).
  • Early tunnel vision on Guthrie’s brother-in-law as a suspect may have hindered a broader, faster investigation.
  • Ransom notes included personalized details (what Nancy wore, broken floodlight) that could have been observed by an acquaintance or someone in the community—Banfield questions the exclusivity of these “inside” details.

• Wrench Attack Theory:

  • Discussion of "wrench attacks" (using physical coercion to obtain digital access/money) is raised but seen as possible yet not clearly fitting the case facts (26:32).
  • Blum describes the kidnapper as likely educated and local, not a cartel member.

• Team Theory:

  • Latest thinking: A team was involved—one supplied “the brawn,” the other “the brains.” Banfield adds that perhaps it was simply an opportunist with day laborer access, exploiting known unlocked entries to Nancy's home.

• Mexico Angle:

  • Recent activity by a Mexican mother’s group searching for Nancy (on the basis of the “buried in nature” claim) found 25 unmarked graves, but none were Nancy.

4. Harvey Levin (TMZ) Interview

(38:35–54:57)

Main Points:

• Second Note Confirmation:

  • Levin confirms TMZ never received the second (apology/death) note; only KOLD did.
  • ABC now authenticates what was long rumored, aligning with a shift in tone from “time is of the essence” to “time is no longer an issue” in corresponding messages (39:41).

• On Savannah Guthrie’s Statement:

  • Both Banfield and Levin read “celebrate with her” in Savannah’s plea as coded language reflecting an understanding that Nancy was deceased (41:12).

• Media vs. Private Communication:

  • Host and Levin analyze why the notes were sent to the media rather than directly to family—as would be typical in “business-like” kidnappings—suggesting inexperience or a desire for attention.

• Theories on Perpetrators:

  • Both favor the theory that a local, someone aware of Nancy’s connection to high-profile daughter Savannah Guthrie, saw an opportunity, ruling out a sophisticated cartel or international syndicate (47:04).

• IT and Bitcoin Investigation:

  • Despite FBI’s best efforts, tracking both the ransom sender and a “middleman” contact who approached TMZ with purported inside info proved futile.
  • Levin describes failed attempts to entice the “middleman” to claim reward money (50:22) and shares his frustration at the FBI’s recent lack of communication regarding a potential documentary plan (52:12).

• Case Prognosis:

  • FBI liaison’s view: Unlikely to “crack” via forensics; more likely someone will brag or leak the truth in time—“That’s what you call a cold case.” (53:50)

5. Banfield’s Closing Thoughts and Public Call to Action

(54:59–end)

• The case remains technically open but is showing signs of stalling out.
• Reiterates tip lines and encourages listeners to share anything, even now, as sometimes details become more significant with time.
• Offers a personal and anonymous route for tips via her show's email.

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On Media’s Delay:

  • “Why has it taken 140-plus days for that to eventually come out?...suddenly everybody say, well, if it’s out there, I guess we’re going to report it officially.” — Ashleigh Banfield (05:43)

• Reporting Sources - Second Note:

  • “The second note, according to sources, said that she had died shortly after she was taken and was, quote, ‘buried in nature.’ First time we’ve heard that.” — Ashleigh Banfield quoting ABC (07:05)
  • “It opened with a sputtering and labored apology...for Guthrie’s inadvertent death...then offered up the transactional possibility that her body could be delivered for a sum.” — Howard Blum via Banfield (09:10)

• On News Director’s Interview:

  • “No, it did not [provide proof of life].” — Jessica Bobilla (11:17)
  • “We are not releasing details of what is contained in the email out of respect for the family...” — Jessica Bobilla (11:41)

• On the Task Force:

  • “They are completely sequestered away...working out of the FBI office.” — Banfield, investigative update (05:00)

• On the Nature of the Perpetrator:

  • “The working theory...the abductor was most likely an opportunist, a ruthless, educated local who saw their chance at an unscrupulous windfall and grabbed it, only to have their scheme disintegrate...” — Howard Blum via Banfield (29:10)

• Harvey Levin’s View:

  • “The note we got…said she was safe. She was scared, but safe…they seem to indicate she was alive.” — Harvey Levin (42:58)
  • “He said...‘The way this case is going to be solved is some guy is going to go to a bar and start bragging about this…’ That’s what you call a cold case.” — Harvey Levin quoting FBI (53:50)

• On Savanna Guthrie’s Statement:

  • “We received your message and we understand. We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us, and we will pay.” — Savannah Guthrie’s public plea, analyzed by Banfield (17:59)

• Banfield’s Closing:

  • “It’s not a cold case until every single lead has been run down…It just feels a little cold. We’re going to keep covering this case.” (54:59)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:49 — Ashleigh opens the case discussion; describes case background, flurry of developments.
• 07:05–09:10 — Direct quotes from new reporting; analysis and attribution.
• 11:01–15:58 — Jessica Bobilla interview; confirms lack of proof of life, details on note submission.
• 19:28 — Focus returns to ransom notes as investigative leads diminish.
• 26:32 — Introduction of “wrench attack” theory.
• 38:35–54:57 — Harvey Levin interview: timeline, analysis, and FBI insights.
• 54:59 — Banfield closes, urges tips.

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Tone and Language

Ashleigh Banfield’s conversational tone blends irreverence with seasoned investigative rigor. The discussion is candid, unvarnished, and sometimes self-critical—highlighting both the procedural limitations and the emotional toll on all involved. Levin’s bluntness and firsthand media experience lend authenticity and skepticism to the analysis.

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Summary for Newcomers

This episode delivers a comprehensive, detailed, and openly skeptical analysis of new developments in the Nancy Guthrie case, with Ashleigh Banfield piecing together an evolving timeline, competing reporting, forensics limitations, and institutional responses. Even listeners unfamiliar with the case will leave with a clear sense of how the second ransom note’s content changes the stakes, the investigative challenges dogging the case, the interplay between local reporting and the national media, and why the public’s help may still make a difference.

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Transcript

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[Ashley Banfield]

Hey everyone, I'm Ashley Banfield and this is drop dead Serious. And man did not expect to get a big, big bucket of developments in the Nancy Guthrie case. But that's exactly what's happened today. Very odd that we are like 142 plus days since Nancy Guthrie vanished and suddenly there is just this flurry of activity and reporting. Here's what bugs me. Early in the case, there had been lots of rumblings about what was contained in one of the ransom notes that came in to the media. Remember, there's just been tons of these notes, right? But two of them early on were ransom notes that the Guthrie family and the FBI were taking very seriously. The first note was the first communication at all. But it came in almost two days after Nancy vanished, right? She vanished on February 1st and a ransom note didn't come in until the following Monday, February 2nd, at almost 7 o' clock at night. So she's gone in the middle of the night from Saturday to Sunday and Monday night this, this ransom note comes in and it comes into the media. Two TV stations in Arizona and tmz. And so that was odd, right? Then four days later, another ransom note came in. And this is the subject of the reporting tonight. And this is important because there had been lots of rumors and rumblings early in this case. I heard them myself. I did not report them because they were rumors and rumblings. Right now they are being reported, bona fide reported, okay? And the rumors and rumblings are effectively that Nancy Guthrie died after she was abducted and that the abductors apologized for this accidental death. I'm going to lay out all of the reporting sources and what they exactly said because some reports that are saying this today are very detailed, others are just mentioning it, and still others have additional details beyond what the the headline is. So I'm going to run down all of this with you. And I'm also going to talk to Harvey Levin's TMZ because he has been at the forefront of receiving so many of the communiques. Right, the very ransom letter that the FBI believes in. The FBI dived into the offices of tmz, went through all their servers, worked with the staff at tmz and Harvey has responded to exactly what was and wasn't in the communiques that went to tmz. But there's some really odd stuff that ABC is reporting, News Nation is reporting. And then I've got my own reporting today as well from my sources and that is that things may have changed at Pima County, I'm not sure. But effectively when this all happened, there were hundreds of agents on this case, FBI local, multiple different responding units. We even know about surrounding, you know, counties that, that dived in and were helping with this case. And look, they always atrophy. Cases always get smaller. Agents fall away, the numbers fall away. Eventually the core agents even take on other cases into their caseload. But I can tell you this, there was this task force that was put together after the Nancy Guthrie disappearance. And the task force contained a number of FBI and Pima county homicide detectives. So FBI agents, Pima county homicide. And for a while there we thought there's at least like a half dozen of the FBI agents that remained after about six weeks and about a half dozen Pima county deputies that, that were on the the case. I can tell you this, they are completely sequestered away. I learned today they're completely sequestered away and they are working out of the FBI office. So there is no back and forth between the homicide unit and this task force. Even though there are a half dozen homicide detectives still apparently on the task force. This is the reporting I got from sources inside this area today. And so that's really, for me that's really heartening because I was concerned that that half dozen agents from Pima county had also dwindled. Now that we're 140 plus days, I cannot tell you how many FBI agents. I can only tell you that they're still in the FBI building. They're all working out of the FBI building. But some of this reporting today,

[Jessica Bobilla]

it

[Ashley Banfield]

gives rise to what the media did and didn't report early on because with so many different outlets hearing the rumblings and knowing about this so called apology that came from the possible kidnappers in this so called ransom note, why has it taken 140plus days for that to eventually come out? Especially since it was known among many of the media outlets early on, I can't answer that. But what I can say that all of a sudden it's pylon, right? Everybody's, you know, jumping on. Howard Blum from airmail has a report. Then ABC News jumps on and says, we're going to confirm it, we're going to add some details. And then News Nation a report and adds another detail. So suddenly everybody say, well, if it's out there, I guess we're going to report it officially. That the second ransom note that came four days after the first ransom note, which would be six days after the disappearance, said, we're sorry, but Nancy died. It was unintentional and we still want money for her body. Takes us special person for which a special place in hell is reserved to do that kind of thing. If it's real, even more special if it's fake, Definitely special. Let me quote specifically from ABC News and what they are saying about this so called apology. It's really only Howard Blum from airmail that's effectively saying there's an apology. ABC is saying this. Quote, the first note demanded cryptocurrency for Nancy Guthrie's return. The second note, according to sources, said that she had died shortly after she was taken and was, quote, buried in nature. First time we've heard that. That's from ABC News News Nation is also adding to that and saying, quote, a ransom note in in the Nancy Guthrie case said that she had died and was buried. Sources close to the investigation said, according to the source, the note indicated that Guthrie's death was, quote, unintentional and said that she was, quote, buried with nature. Now just a little bit more detail on that. Let me read from Howard Blum's reporting and I want to read his exact text because I think it's specific and I want to attribute this to him, not to me. So the exact text reads in this note, the contents of which were summarized by sources close to the case. The sender took a new and less confident tone. It opened with a sputtering and labored apology. That was the word used by a source close to the case for Guthrie's inadvertent death. And Howard Blum's quote goes on. It says it went harshly on, however, to offer up the transactional possibility that her body could be delivered for a sum. Whether it would be the original $4 million or another amount apparently was never clarified. End quote. So again, this very detailed description from Howard Blum quoting sources close to the investigation suggests that it was a sputtering and labored AP that the death was inadvertent. Howard Blum doesn't say Buried With Nature. That's ABC News. And then there's News Nation saying Buried With Nature now. So very specific stuff that's come out. And I think what's so important at this juncture is to go back in time to what was happening right around this time, because you'll probably remember that one of the local news stations that received the first ransom note, but then only this news station, kold, received the second note, Right? KOLD was the only station that received the second note. TMZ did not receive that. But the news director, her name is Jessica Bobilla. I hope I'm pronouncing Jessica's name right. She told News Nation in an interview with Elizabeth Vargas effectively some of what that second note was all about. She was pretty cagey, though, because I think she felt like she shouldn't be giving out some of the details that the FBI and she had discussed. Clearly, you know, they got this note and they went to the FBI with it, but she wasn't going to divulge everything that was in it. But she did say some things. And I think now when you look at her interview, you can kind of like connect this new reporting and feel out whether you're getting the sense that that's what she's avoiding saying or that that's what she's pointing to. But watch this interview with KOLD's news director, Jessica Bobila, and think about what's coming out now. The fact that there was an apology in the second note for an inadvertent death and that she was dead and buried now and that maybe money could get her back.

[Interviewer]

Take a look on this new message is the Kold news director, Jessica Bobula. Jessica, thanks so much for coming on. You've read this new message. First of all, did it provide any proof of life that the family's been asking for?

[Jessica Bobilla]

No, it did not.

[Interviewer]

Did it say anything at all about Nancy's condition?

[Jessica Bobilla]

I can't go into those details, but

[Interviewer]

clearly the FBI is now swarming Nancy's house, especially in the backyard area. Was there anything in this newest message that would direct FBI to go look or find something?

[Jessica Bobilla]

We're not releasing details of what is contained in the email out of respect for the family, other than what you saw in Mary's social post, which actually the reporter also mentioned as well about the IP address.

[Interviewer]

But the key is we just saw that video from Cameron Guthrie last night at this Exact time. The night before that, we had the video from all three of the Guthrie siblings with Savannah, Annie, and Cameron all asking repeatedly urgently for proof of life. And you're saying this newest email does not provide that?

[Jessica Bobilla]

This newest email is something that I believe the FBI will need to look into without any interference. And so what we did, what we did the first time that we received the note, which is immediately send it to investigators and not report on it. And when we were able to speak with the sheriff's office and they decided to put out a statement jointly with the FBI, then we were able to confirm that, yes, we did receive a second note.

[Interviewer]

When did you get that? What time was that?

[Jessica Bobilla]

That was about 11:45 this morning.

[Interviewer]

And apparently you've been saying Mary Coleman, who was on the show last night, your anchor, your evening news anchor, said that it's from a different IP address than the first one, but it still appears to be from the same person.

[Jessica Bobilla]

Yes. So what we have done is shared the information that we have. So the. The notes were both sent through our News Tip system. So it does not need to come from a personal email address. You fill out a form. So through what we are able to do, you know, in our back end, with our website and our technology that we have here, we're able to make sure that the FBI has as much information as we can provide about where the email came from, but it is not from, you know, a certain email address. You just fill it out. You put your name in there, you put what your email address is, but it's not, you know, there's not. It's not showing that it is coming from that email address. So the IP address information that we sent to them is, like I said, that it is not the same address, but it does seem to trace back to a similar cloaking software.

[Interviewer]

And it sounds the same in tone and tenor.

[Ashley Banfield]

It's hard to tell.

[Jessica Bobilla]

You know, there's sentences, sentence structure, but it's. We're also doing a lot of reporting of our own today about how, with digital notes, this isn't a piece of paper with magazine letters cut out or anything. It's hard to tell with things coming through digitally. Is it assisted by AI? Is it written by the same person? It's very difficult to tell.

[Interviewer]

And did this message have an email address on it?

[Ashley Banfield]

Yes.

[Jessica Bobilla]

Our form does require that you put a name, an email address, and a birth date. And so both of the notes had that, but they were not the same as each other, the two notes.

[Interviewer]

So they were different. The name Email address and birth dates were different on the two notes. Were they?

[Jessica Bobilla]

Like I said, it's just a form, so you can just type it in. There's no way to verify that.

[Interviewer]

You can put in Roger Rabbit. Yeah. Okay. Is this commonly known that people can get messages to you this way in a way in which they don't have to reveal their name or their email address?

[Jessica Bobilla]

It's a system that we use and we've had it on our website for years. What I'll say is that it's usually not used in this way, right? I mean, usually people do want us to be able to contact them. Hey, I have a news tip for you. Please call me at this number or email me back at this address. And then we say, oh, okay. Here. Would you like to talk to us about your news tip? So it's not usually an issue, but yes, that is the case, is that you can fill out the form however you'd like. In fact, some people do send in anonymous news tips and I couldn't tell you why, but that may be one of the reasons why our system works that way. So that a person could send in an anonymous tip. But then, you know, like I said, it just depends upon if they leave a way that we can then contact

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[Ashley Banfield]

So that is the news director of KOLD. I think it now makes a little bit more sense. Looking at her comments, it feels like it's in line with this reporting of an apology for an inadvertent death and that it happened after she was abducted and that there might be money that could satisfy perhaps a return of Nancy Guthrie's body. To that end, many of you were very astute when you saw Savannah Guthrie's comments after February 6th. Okay, so this second note came February 6th, and Savannah Guthrie and her family, they came together and said, effectively, we have heard what you've said. We understand. We want our mother back. And she uses the term to celebrate with us. Many of us read into it back then, like, what does that mean? Does that mean as in a celebration of life, meaning she's no longer with us? It was at that time that many of the rumors were surfacing that there was this note that had come in saying that she'd inadvertently died and that it was an accident. But now look at Savannah's comments, knowing what we know now, and see if you agree that this all falls in line. We received your message and we understand. We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us, and we will pay. I'm going to talk to Harvey Levin about all of this. He's coming up in just a moment. And by the way, there's something new that Harvey is reporting as well that we had not heard before that is very, very interesting just in terms of helping the, you know, the FBI to, to flesh out whoever these people are sending these notes. And I gotta say, it's a little disappointing to hear the FBI's response, but that's coming up in just a moment. Not before I give you some of the other things that Howard Blum is reporting. Look, it's very, very serious that, that, that this apology is now becoming sort of common knowledge because again, a lot of the media had all Talked about it early and held off reporting that. And I do want to say, like, Howard Blum has a really good resume. He's done some incredible work in the past. I will say there were some things that he reported when it came to the Idaho quadruple murders that were way off. Right. Like, the one thing I remember clearly was that Howard Blum reported that the identifications of the four victims were found in Bryan Coburger's glove box. And that was not true. The real reporting was that There were old IDs found in a box with gloves inside Bryan Coburger's home. Which would make sense. I mean, we all have our old IDs right in our closets and all the rest. But gloves in a box and IDs do not mean the students IDs in his glove box, in his car. That was way, way off. So with a grain of salt, I'm just careful to, to note that with these next details I'm about to give you, I can't tell you, you know, whether they're accurate or not because I have no other contemporaneous reporting to suggest as well. I did have ABCs and news nations, but now I'm just going to let you know what Howard Blum is adding in terms of color. So one of the things that, that Howard is reporting is that the, the task force, the special task force, that's the one that's made up of Pima county homicide detectives and, and FBI agents that they are apparently coming back repeatedly to the ransom notes as the focal point of this investigation. That's interesting. Let me read exactly what Howard Blum says. Quote, special Task Force, a unit of FBI agents and homicide detectives from Pima County, Arizona Sheriff's Department running the investigation, find themselves returning by default to the ransom notes that were received in the weeks following Guthrie's abduction in the early hours of February 1, 2026. By default, meaning we got nothing else, so we might as well go back to the ransom notes. That worries me because I figured by now 140 plus days, there'd be a lot more to go on. You've run down 40,000 tips. Some of that had to have something. Certainly you must have been able to run other leads down, but they're all coming up empty. So you just keep coming back to the, to these ransom notes by default, not by unbelievable, you know, IP investigation. Apparently not. And I keep coming back to those first few days. You know, in the first two days after Nancy Guthrie went missing, sources inside the Sheriff's department told Me specifically that they were hell bent and focusing on a number one suspect, which was the brother in law. That's what they said, not what I said. That is what they said they were focusing on. Did they therefore miss really drilling down on this other area? I know there's been criticism that's come in since saying that they missed critical days in those first few days and weeks of investigation. Is that because they had a laser focus on the brother in law? Is it because they did that that they missed this whole other area and now are falling into it by default? I think it's something that, you know, when there is eventually some autopsy conducted on this investigation down the road, I think that will possibly be a very big area to mine because that sometimes happens very often. In fact, sometimes tunnel vision with investigators can cause all sorts of problems later on. Can't say that that is what happened, but I think it's worth it given the fact that my sources inside that department were saying that they were absolutely focused on number one suspect, brother in law. That was their thinking, not mine. So one other thing that Howard Blum is reporting that is I think noteworthy is the detail that apparently these ransom notes included, we had talked at length early on in the case about the Apple watch that the Ranso writers apparently knew about. Okay, we've all seen Apple watches on Nancy, so they could have made that up. And a broken floodlight. Okay. Two days after Nancy went missing, there were plenty of pictures all around that house. You could see a broken floodlight. So it's not as though that was information only known to these, these kidnappers. But this is what Howard drills in on. And it's interesting in that there's a detail about what was included in the note that we hadn't heard before. Let me read you exactly from Howard's reporting. They talk about the good, bad and the ugly, how the investigators sorted good, bad and ugly tips. Right. So it, it says this, quote, the good are the emails had correctly described what Guthrie had been wearing on the night she was abducted and had also accurately noted the presence of a damaged floodlight in the home's backyard. And even more encouraging, the emails the first sent at 6:42pm on February 2, about a day after the abduction. It's actually two days detailed. The terms for an exchange. Guthrie, according to the messages, was quote, safe but scared, according to people close to the investigation, with two ominous words, or else. Okay, couple things about the pajamas, about what Nancy Guthrie was wearing. All I can say is that the only person who knew what Nancy Guthrie went to bed wearing would have been Nancy Guthrie because she was dropped off by her family members that night and they watched her go inside. And then the sheriff said presumably she went to bed. Well, she would be the one who knew what she put on to go to bed. So how anybody could say knew exactly what Nancy Guthrie was wearing when she was abducted, I find that difficult to. To believe. Not saying that it's impossible, I just find it difficult given nobody saw Nancy Guthrie after she's fully clothed in street clothes and goes in to go to bed. So that's a bit unusual. Also the note here that he suggests about a day after the abduction, it's two full days, I mean, she goes missing, you know, in the middle of the night, Saturday to Sunday. So there's all of Sunday and there's all of Sunday night into Monday and there's all of Monday till about 7 o' clock at night. So that is almost two full days. And we're mentioning here in the article, Howard Blum says about a day that's odd. Detailing the terms for the exchange and that she's safe but scared. Safe but scared. That's new. But I'm interested in the detailing terms for the exchange. There's no mention in this paragraph about the apple watch. And again, everybody knew that she had an apple watch. So I was never quite convinced that just knowledge of Nancy Guthrie having an apple watch or some possible location of where it might be in the. We all put it on our bedside table. Right. I never felt that that was such a strong clue. But there you have it. Something else that Howard Blum has in his article I find extremely interesting, especially since we've all been talking about wrench attacks. If you missed the episode wrench attacks, basically that's a new form of how to steal from people. But it's everything old is new again. It's effectively just going back to good old fashioned brute force to threaten people to get their passwords rather than taking, you know, days and days to try to hack into their accounts. You know, just grab somebody or a family member of somebody, threaten them with a AKA wrench or something, you know, some kind of pain, and get them to cough up passwords. That's what a wrench attack is. And there are all these new reports that suggest wrench attacks are on the rise. And a prominent group that studies them brought in the Nancy Guthrie case to suggest that maybe that's something that happened. They grabbed Nancy Guthrie in order to threaten her or someone close to her to get money. It's A little off from the norm of a wrench attack, but adjacent nonetheless. It's wrench attacks by proxy. So this is interesting because Blum is now reporting that the first ransom note has investigators believing that the person who wrote it is educated and of course, familiar with crypto. Well, we know that because it was demanding crypto. Right. But somebody who's educated. Let me. Let me read you exactly what he writes. Quote, the kidnapper is educated, articulate and knowledgeable about the intricacies of cryptocurrency. And the apology in the missive, which had revealed Guthrie's alleged death, would also suggest that the kidnapper was not a cold hearted cartel member, as law enforcement had speculated early in the case. But someone in over their head. Now, this is Blum with his theory, but he is basing his theories on his conversations, he says, with sources close to the investigation. But I don't know, I think we all maybe could have jumped to the idea that this is someone who's educated, because I'm going to go out on a limb here, but this dude seems to have managed to elude the strongest investigative force in the country, the FBI. Right. Whoever did this, you could say he looked like a bumbling fool on that front doorstep. But whatever happened afterwards, they have seemed to elude all investigative muscle. So I'm not so sure it's a big leap to say this is someone who's educated. I don't know about articulate. Maybe the ransom notes are articulate, but chat GPT can make a 6th grader pretty articulate these days. Anyway, just to, you know, bring it all in perspective, I'm not so sure. I'm not so sure that this is someone who, you know, isn't just bloody lucky. Just bloody lucky, because all the other things that tend to trip people up, you know, a license plate, you got caught on a reader, you got caught on someone's doorbell camera. All of those things just, they weren't in place in this particular case. This neighborhood was too dark. Couldn't see anything on doorbell cams. Tucson didn't have the right kind of license plate readers. So all these things that usually trip people up, not in place in this case, should we attribute that to this person being really, you know, super bright? Maybe not. So on the other side of this coin, Blum is suggesting that the investigators think that this was a local opportunist, just somebody local, not big and connected, like a cartel that saw a shot, went for it. And I'm just going to add, maybe just got real lucky. And that Nobody's been able to find this guy. But here's the exact text from, from Howard Blum's article. It says the working theory advanced by the language in the ransom notes is that the abductor was most likely an opportunist, a ruthless, educated local who saw their chance at an unscrupulous windfall and grabbed it, only to have their scheme disintegrate when, as a result of either violence or illness, Guthrie died. I think we've all sort of wondered if that was a possibility. They had this grand plan and suddenly this 84 year old grandmother who had a bad heart, couldn't walk, you know, as far as the end of her driveway. Yeah, that kind of terror in the middle of the night. Have you seen these pictures of this masked man? If I saw that at my front door, I would have a heart attack. So imagine a frail grandmother waking up to that over her bed. So, sure, I could see that being a possibility. And we have all gamed that out as a possibility that this was an intentional either assault in planning.

[Commercial Narrator]

Right.

[Ashley Banfield]

We talked about geriatric rapes being a thing in the past. It happened to Nancy Woodrum in California when she vanished from her bed, that it might have been one of those. And maybe the whole plan was thwarted when Mrs. Guthrie died, either right then and there in that bedroom or maybe later on. And Howard Blum goes even a little further here to suggest that the task force has sort of come up with a theory of a team event, meaning that that guy on the front doorstep didn't act alone. Not that he had friends on the, you know, other side of the house, that there were multiple people who were there, but that there may have been somebody who was actually the mastermind of this. And let me read for you what Blum writes. He said the task force, according to sources close to the investigation, has decided this kidnapping was a team effort. One individual supplied the brawn, the other the brains. That I think maybe, you know, that sounds like it could be legitimate, but I also think the brawn could have been the brains as well, because I think it's possible they just got lucky. I have felt all along that a very plausible theory would be a worker, maybe a landscaper, who had done some work in the backyard, thereby seeing those three entrances, maybe even seeing Nancy coming out of her kitchen entrance, which we've reported to you. Was the entrance propped open with the flower pot as well as the gate propped open with the flower pot. That was our exclusive reporting early on in this case. But if he saw while he's working in that backyard. Here is my possible entryway. Mrs. Guthrie left her back doors open. The family said that to investigators. That was something we found early on in this case. That was an exclusive report from us that we discovered. Nancy Guthrie was frequently leaving her back doors unlocked. So perhaps this was just an opportunist who saw something. He saw entryway into a woman who lived by herself. Maybe the contractor he was working for didn't even take his name because he could have been day labor and thought, I'm coming back here for that. Whether it was for money or for some other kind of crime, who knows? But perhaps it was as simple as propping that back kitchen door open, waiting to see if there was a need to flee and have that door open and that fence open to get away fast, and then realizing everything went sideways once he was in there, but that it was too much for him to carry Mrs. Guthrie all the way out that kitchen door, back through the backyard, where there were other cameras that were too high to break, and out through that driveway and down to the car. It's very possible that he went out to that front door, disabled that camera, realizing I'm bringing her out through the front door, then brought the vehicle in, knowing it wouldn't be on camera, and carried Mrs. Guthrie out, possibly already dead. Hard to know at this point, given that nothing else exists on camera. So, again, this is just a metric shit ton of details from Howard Blum. And I will just put the caveat on. He's a good journalist. He's done great work in his, you know, in his very long, storied career. He has made a few errors, especially in that Idaho reporting. But some of the reporting that that Howard Blum is putting out today seems to be corroborated by abc, by news nation. But man, oh, man, the feds on that task force and the homicide detectives have been so tight lipped that even their friends who work in the sheriff's department are saying it's like a vault and we can't get any information out of them. So it's just really interesting all of this is coming out now, especially since just last week there was a flurry of activity when we learned that a women's organization down in Mexico called Buscando corazones Nogales partnered up with officials in Sonora state. That's over Nogales, you know, border crossing. Right. Right south of where Nancy Guthrie went missing in Tucson. That this mother's group had received an anonymous tip that Nancy Guthrie was buried in a very Specific location. And this mother's group went there with the help of Mexican authorities. They obviously believed enough in this that the Mexican authorities supported this mother's group to go and do a search. It's just awful to think about what this mother's group has recovered because they have unearthed 25 unmarked graves. But unfortunately, their search turned up nothing regarding Nancy Guthrie. But it certainly did kind of invigorate a lot of the attention on this case. Which brings me to something new that Harvey Levin is reporting, which I think is fascinating, because Harvey received the very first ransom note along with the TV stations in Tucson. And then Harvey started receiving other notes from someone who said he wasn't the kidnapper, but that he knew the kidnapper and that he thought time was of the essence, that somebody pay him for the information to lead to where Nancy Guthrie was being held in Mexico. Then Harvey received another communication from the same person, same address, saying, time is no longer of the essence, but I still have this information. And the guy kind of pestered. So the guy, the person kind of pestered Harvey. And so Harvey suggested this brilliant play where he said to this person, why don't you just claim the million dollar reward and give that information? To which this person replied, I'm too afraid. And Harvey said, okay, we'll do it. We'll get the reward money for you, and we will take your information, thereby providing you an anonymous buffer. And the guy, you know, kind of amscrayed. But Harvey went further, and he actually just revealed to me that he made a plan with the FBI to pay it, pay the money to this guy, and do a documentary about it. But Harvey wouldn't do it unless the FBI was okay with it. And he's going to describe for you where that plan went. I find it very distressing what the FBI's response was. Maybe you'll feel differently. But here is my interview with Harvey Levin earlier today, because he weighed in on that whole apology information, as well as this new information about the documentary plan. But I do want to give you a quick caveat. Harvey's so incredibly busy that he said, I have, like, a couple of minutes right now. And it was right in the middle of a workout, so I kind of look crazy and weird. But anyway, this is my conversation with Harvey Levin from TMZ earlier today. Harvey, this new report is very distressing. There have been lots of rumblings about an apology in a ransom note before, but no one ever reported it until now. What's your read on this?

[Harvey Levin]

Well, initially, they said it was the Note we got where there was an apology, and the note we got, there was no apology, and they said she was alive. Apparently. We know that a local station in Tucson got a second note, and ABC is reporting that in that note, they said that she was dead. And that note was sent on February 6. So we are not privy to that. The email they got, we never have been. And they hadn't ever really released it until ABC came out today. So I will just take it at face value that at that point, they said she was dead. It aligns with what this guy had been sending us, saying initially she was alive and he knew who the kidnappers were and where Nancy was. And at a point, he said, time is no longer an issue.

[Ashley Banfield]

That was weird. I always thought, like, you got the first note saying, time is of the essence, then another note days later saying, time's no longer of the essence. And you're saying that the timing does kind of feel like it might line up with the fact that, well, it's now been conveyed to the family that Nancy's no longer alive.

[Harvey Levin]

Yeah. I mean, look, it looks to me that if you remember that when Savannah, the weekend after, had posted something that everybody was kind of curious about, where it almost sounded like she might not be alive, that Savannah knew something that was on the heels of this second ransom note. So it does kind of make sense that that second ransom note, which authorities believe to be true and aligned with the first one in terms of who sent it, that they were under the impression that Nancy had died.

[Ashley Banfield]

I remember hearing that and thinking, I think I'm going to paraphrase it. I think Savannah said in her overture, we received your message, and we understand it's important for us to get our mother back so that we can celebrate with her and we will pay. I always took that to mean it sounds as though they've gotten a message that they need to celebrate with Nancy in terms of a celebration of life, not necessarily so that we can see her again, we can be with her again.

[Harvey Levin]

That's the way I understood it as well.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah. So at first, it was Howard Blum, I think, who reported this in airmail, that there was this apology. Again, we had all heard this long ago. Nobody went with it. And now are you saying that abc, independently, is. Is reporting this, or they're reporting what Howard Blum has put out?

[Harvey Levin]

Abc, I believe that the station that got the second ransom note was an ABC affiliate. And ABC came out today, I believe, and said that the second note said she was no longer alive. So that's as much as I know right now. But, you know, it does seem, you know, and again, I'm really looking at this guy who had been sending us notes saying, I know where she is, that it did feel that way to me that she died days after she was kidnapped. And it kind of makes sense with all her health problems, fact that she didn't have her meds, that it doesn't mean somebody even took her life. She may have just died because she had so many health problems.

[Ashley Banfield]

You know, I've got to be honest, Harvey. In the business that we're in, we go through a lot of scenarios. We game them out. We see what fits with evidence we know of, what's possible given evidence we don't know. And in this particular case, everything in her home was undisturbed except for those blood droplets leading out the door, inside the door, our source says, and outside the front door. And I often wondered if maybe something happened right then and there that night and that whoever did this and botched it, if Mrs. Guthrie died right then on the spot, still thought they might be able to get whatever ransom they wanted for those first few days.

[Harvey Levin]

I mean, it's possible. The note we got, which was days after she was kidnapped, said she was safe. She was scared, but safe. So if you take the kidnappers at their word, and, you know, you may or may not do that, they seem to indicate she was alive. So that whatever those blood droppings were, that didn't mean that there was a fatal incident that, you know, look, I don't know, but just everything I pieced together, I think she was alive for several days before she died.

[Ashley Banfield]

I'm also very curious about the length of time it took for the kidnappers, if, you know, if she was alive, to actually make their outreach. And kidnapping is a serious business. It is a real business with real, you know, syndicates who conduct this business. They are in the business of making money and not making waves. And yet it took at least 48 hours before any overture came out. And it didn't go just to Savannah, which would be an email that you could track. It went to the media, which I've also always found to be so. So much the antithesis of the way they usually conduct business.

[Harvey Levin]

Well, it happened with the Zodiac Killer, where they went to the San Francisco Chronicles. So it's not unprecedented. I believe the Unabomber did the same thing. So it isn't unprecedented. What happened was they sent it to a couple of local stations initially and then shortly thereafter sent it to us the first One, you know, almost like they wanted this to get out, but they didn't want this thing. I don't know. They didn't want it traced. And I don't know why they would think that it was more foolproof for them to send it to us than Nance, than Savannah, but they did. But look, I mean, I will tell you this. Why would it take 48 hours? I talked to the FBI about that at some point, and they believed that if she was in Mexico, they didn't take her immediately, that they had checked a lot of the surveillance cameras and they didn't see suspicious activity that night. So that they thought if it did happen, it would have happened at some point later. So if you want to connect the dots, it may be that they didn't want to reach out until they were across the border. So that's a possibility scenario.

[Ashley Banfield]

And, you know, there's so much. There's so much looking back on these first critical days. Right. And with what we're starting to hear from inside sources about, you know, really inexperienced homicide detectives, a very egotistical sheriff, that those critical hours and days were botched. And I don't know if that meant that there was an effort to look over the border, because, as you know, in the early offings, nobody seemed to even know if anyone in Sonora State had been contacted. The FBI had some indication, maybe, but then the locals didn't know, and it just seemed like one big hot mess.

[Harvey Levin]

Yeah, I think it was a big, hot mess. And I think the FBI was not particularly pleased that there was such a delay. Because you're right. I mean, look, you know, everybody in law enforcement, the first 48 hours are critical. But when you are that close to the Mexican border, I think it's especially critical because it is so much harder to deal with this if this goes international. And if the FBI was right, that if they did take her to Mexico, they didn't do it immediately, there would have been a much better window for them had they been contacted earlier.

[Ashley Banfield]

Do you think there's anything to the new discussion of wrench attacks? You know, the kind of attack where there's a. There's a boss that's international, they employ the junior level thugs in the locales to go and do their dirty work, and then they literally try to extract critical passwords from people with the threat of violence. Do you think there's anything to that when it comes to the Guthrie case?

[Harvey Levin]

Look, I don't know. The sense I've always gotten was that whoever did this or masterminded it lived in the Tucson area that they were able to turn on their television and watch news stations in the Tucson market, because that's why they would reach out to two Tucson stations. And it seemed to me that it was either somebody who knew Nancy Guthrie and knew that her daughter was famous and presumably rich, or had heard that Nancy Guthrie was Savannah's mother and they saw a payday. But that's always the way I saw it, that this was not this big international thing. It was somebody in the Tucson area who knew Nancy Guthrie's connection to Savannah and saw dollar signs.

[Ashley Banfield]

It's been over 140 days now since Nancy Guthrie went missing. And there's been sort of like percolating stories just of late. It went very quiet for a while. And one of the other big stories that, you know, surfaced was this. This moms group that looks for missing people south of the border across Nogales got a tip, an anonymous tip, that Nancy was buried close to the border. They searched, they had the support of the Mexican authorities, so there had to be some teeth. And they found 12 unmarked graves, this group, but never found Nancy. Do you think there's something to this, given that it's such a long time since Nancy vanished, to having this tip come about?

[Harvey Levin]

I don't know. I mean, I just don't know. Again, I've always felt that this was credible, that she was taken across the border and the person who had been sending us numerous emails saying they knew where she was, that that person said she was in Mexico and that the kidnappers were in Mexico. So I don't know. I just know that at least that email, the emails we were getting, and I. There was something about this guy who was sending them that I believed that she was in Mexico.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, I mean, at this point, it's so difficult with there's just so many horrible players all over the world at this point who have access to public information and have access to doing whatever ill will through bitcoin they want. Early on, you were very involved with the FBI in that account. And I think you said that they. The FBI actually put some Money, I think $260 into the Bitcoin account just to tickle the wire a little. What ended up happening from that?

[Harvey Levin]

Nothing. They thought maybe they could get a hit and they couldn't.

[Ashley Banfield]

Nothing at all. And then what about the guy who kept reaching out to you saying, I have the information. I am, you know, tangentially connected to the players who did this, and I have information, but I'm too Afraid to go public. I know that you were, like, playing chess with his checkers when you said, fine, we'll get the million, you know, the million dollar reward for you, and we'll ensure you get paid and we'll keep you anonymous. Did he ever take the bait?

[Harvey Levin]

No, he never gave us the information, but he kept contacting us. And, you know, I. I always felt this guy knew something because it felt like he knew these kidnappers. And, you know, all of the emails, when you read them, I mean, he was scared. He thought they might try to implicate him, the authorities might. He said the reason he wanted money was so he could go underground because he was afraid of retribution. And so I know the FBI took that seriously, and they spent time with my IT team trying to track him down, and they couldn't. And I find that really interesting that they couldn't track the kidnappers down from that first ransom note, and they believed that was real, and they couldn't track this guy down either. And, you know, the FBI is really good, and they put five people on it at one point at the same time with our IT team. And I think it's interesting that that guy, as well as the kidnappers, went undetected. And so, you know, about a month ago, I called the FBI guy that I had been dealing with back, and I. And he's always been responsive. And I said, look, if we do a documentary, you know, what if we pay him that money and we'll see where it leads. We don't want to do anything that's going to compromise your investigation, but let us know if you want us to do that. For whatever reason, you've been reluctant, even though you've been interested in who he is. And they said, well, that's interesting. And then he ghosted me. And up until that point. Point, he always called me back. And I've called him a half dozen times since that call a month ago, and he's never returned my phone call. And he's been the liaison for us.

[Ashley Banfield]

I mean, that's huge.

[Jessica Bobilla]

The.

[Ashley Banfield]

The idea of doing this, doc, paying this guy, waiting to see what happens. It seems like that would be the most action that anyone has really taken in terms of the overtures that have been made. Pay me and I'll give you something.

[Harvey Levin]

Yeah, we're not going to do anything unless the FBI says it's okay, because the last thing we want to do is interfere. But it's always kind of felt that way to me. And he said something weird to me at one point. He Said, yeah, we're looking at that too. Because I had mentioned that I kind of believed that guy. And I thought, well, that's interesting. So he's still on your radar? Because I was also told at the same time the case is gone cold. So I. Look, I don't know. It's really confusing to me. I just find it really interesting that this person who is always, you know, over the months, has been incredibly responsive. It is unlike him to ghost us this way.

[Ashley Banfield]

Right. Well, we got information that the. The task force. You know, at one time, there were hundreds of people working this case, from the FBI to the local law enforcement agencies, and they had all descended upon the Tucson area. And we got information just today that says the number of Pima county homicide detectives that are on the case is still a half dozen, and it had been reduced to a half dozen two months ago. As far as FBI, we don't know, but we do know that they are still working out of the FBI building, so they're very, very sequestered, meaning they're kind of a vault. But at this point, do you have a good feel for this case actually ever being solved?

[Harvey Levin]

Yeah, I mean, I had several discussions, especially with the person I just mentioned from the FBI, and gosh, this was three months ago. Two. Two and a half. Three months ago. He said to me, he said, look, the way this case is going to be solved is some guy is going to go to a bar and start bragging about this, and one thing is going to lead to another, and they're going to end up finding these people. But that was his solution to this. It was not. We're going to crack the case. He said, look, it may take six months, it may take two years, but we're confident something like that is going to happen. That's what you call a cold case.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah. Honestly, Harvey, I think it's going to be a disgruntled girl. I think somebody is going to break up with him, and then she's going to spill the beans. Because I can count about a half dozen cases in my career where that has happened.

[Harvey Levin]

There's nothing like a scorned girlfriend to crack a case.

[Ashley Banfield]

Amen. Well, I hope that happens, honestly. Thank you. I know you're so busy today, so thank you for squeezing in some time.

[Harvey Levin]

You got it.

[Ashley Banfield]

So there you have it. My God. You know, there doesn't a week go by where someone doesn't say to me, hey, whatever happened with that Today show host's mom? If they've forgotten her name, they haven't forgotten the case. I get that question so often. And I keep answering the same way. Unresolved. Still nothing new. Still nothing, according to investigators, or at least nothing they're sharing publicly. And the more we get bits and pieces of reporting, the more I think it's not something they haven't shared publicly. It's something they just don't have. Because anybody I speak to inside the case or inside the department or tangentially connected to the investigation, they'll say the same thing. There's just nothing else out there. There's just nothing new. And this terrifying C word keeps coming up cold. Look, it isn't a cold case. It's not a cold case until every single lead has been running, run down and ended. And there's nothing else to actually call or check up on or follow. And that's when the box goes up on the shelf. And this is not that yet. You can't do 40,000 leads that fast. No way. It just feels a little cold. We're going to keep covering this case. And I say this all the time, and I mean it. If you know anything, if you have anything, if there's something that now seems weird this many days later or that you feel FREER to report, 1800, call FBI. 1800, call FBI. And if you are too afraid to speak to the police for any reason, and I know there are some of you like that, send it to me. Our address is drop dead serious info gmail.com. drop dead serious info gmail.Com. i've done this before. I've gotten tips before and I have helped the police with those tips without divulging who they came from. And if that's how you feel, please feel free. We're happy to pass those on. If you don't want to talk to the media, but you want to talk to the police, 1, 800, call FBI and they will keep you anonymous as well. So everybody just keep the faith. You know, I said it a long time ago. I really do feel that they'll solve this case. I don't know. I'm feeling as optimistic as I did two, three months ago, but I do, I do feel like there's still a lot more that needs to be done. Thanks everybody for watching. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead seriously.