← Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
DID COURT SCREW-UP LEAD TO DOUBLE MURDER? | Ohio Murders: Spencer and Monique Tepe, Michael McKee
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- [00:00]
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- [01:00]
Rob Misla
This.
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Ashley Banfield
Is the story of the one as.
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Granger for the ones who get it done. Hey everyone, I'm Ashley Banfield and this is drop dead serious. And I know it doesn't sound like me. I am sick. I'm not as sick as I sound, but I sound terrible. So right off the bat, apologies. But I do want to say something about how many of you said something really kind to me in the comments of my last episode. Wishing me well and a speedy recovery. So thank you you so much. That means so much to me, but I assure you I'm actually doing much better than I sound. I just hope I can get this voice back because I kind of depend on it. I have so much to tell you in this episode about the Ohio murder mystery of Spencer and Monique Tepe, a lot of weird stuff is kind of happening and breaking and one of the really weird things that came out today I read this little thing in USA Today about a court docket and a hearing in Dr. Michael McKee and Monique McKee's dissolved marriage. But it was a court hearing for last September and that marriage is Almost a decade old, right? They split eight and a half years ago. Officially, the divorce is finalized. And so why on earth would a hearing have been set for September in their divorce? It turns out it's not just small. May have been a clerical error. But we did a lot of digging on it, and Lindsay, my producer, made some calls on it. We actually got a hold of the court clerk and asked her about it. And what's really troubling is that we discovered that when a clerical error like that is made, notices go out anyway to the parties, meaning Dr. Michael McKee and Monique Tepe. Those notices would have gone out eight and a half years after they were divorced. And if Dr. McKee is the killer, he is one hell of an unstable man. Just imagine what that would have been like had he received that notice. Hey, you got to show up in court in September, you know, for your divorce. Did it set him off? I've got information for you from the court clerk that you're going to hear in this episode. I'm also going to show you the docket, clear as a bell. You know, what their anthology was of their divorce and the hearings that, you know, were scheduled and the notices that likely would have gone out. Very disappointing and very upsetting. That happened in June. The notices and the scheduling and the hearing was supposed to be for September. So we're going to have all that for you. But I also noticed that so many of you have talked to me in the comments about how you're obsessed with how this guy got into the house, this killer. If it's Dr. McKee, how did he get in? Police have told us there's no sign of forced entry. But, I mean, this place looked like it was for Knox. They had a security system. They had cameras. They had a ring door camera. They had a keypad to get in. And so many of you are sort of toiling with all the things that I'm toiling with. How does someone get in in the middle of the night to a house like that? When I had two little kids, I turned into Fort Knox, right? I even got guns. I mean, everything changes when you have little kids in the house. Suddenly you're just. You become Mama Bear, you know, and Daddy Bear, all of it. And so how did the killer get in? No sign of forced entry. Turns out there are a lot of ways that homicide detectives can find out that may not be quite so obvious. And so on this episode, we're going to go over all of that. You're going to hear from a seasoned homicide detective about all the signs that they look for and then all the things that might have happened if the usual suspect signs aren't out around the house. And then I'm going to do a deep dive into gunshot residue because this one's my favorite. Ah, I love gunshot residue. I know it's weird, but I've worked in this business a long time. So the reason I love it is because every time I think of gunshot residue, I think of a bank robber, one of the stupid criminals who opens up his loot and the cartridge inside goes poof and blows all the blue powder dye all over his face. That's a lot like gunshot residue. And so it's invisible. And so killers don't really think about it. Not the kinds of killers that I've come across in my business. Right. Many of them are so stupid, they have no idea the invisible signs that they leave at a place and that they take away from a place. And gunshot residue is one of those things. It's microscopic. It gets into every crack and every cranny. It gets into your hair and under your nails. It gets everywhere. And what's more important is that it transfers. That's the good stuff, right? When a killer does something like this, he or she just, you know, sprays and spreads their mark all over everything with gunshot residue oftentimes. So we're going to get into the depth of what the gunshot residue story could be and what the cops are doing on it right now. Again with a super duper expert in that field, because I just tracked them all down to give me the straight dope on these particular investigative techniques. So we're going to get all of that in this episode. Buckle up and thank you so much for being here. The marriage was short, the divorce was quick, and on paper, it all seemed pretty drama free. But now, of course, we know the pain that Monique Sabotersky was suffering. It was immense. That's what she told her family and her friends, that her marriage to Dr. Michael McKee was horrendous. After Monique Sabotersky became Monique McKee, she later took on her new husband's name, Monique Tepe. And that was her name when she died, murdered right there beside her husband of five years, Spencer Tepe. And we are learning a lot, a heck of a lot more about how much she suffered at the hands of Michael McKee during and after their marriage. But even after Dr. McKee was arrested and charged with those murders, the question we still can't shake is, why now? His marriage to Mo Tepe ended Officially back in June of 2017. That's more than eight and a half years ago. The couple had separated almost 10 years ago. Look, heartache lingers. I get it. And time doesn't always heal all wounds. But scars do do fade. Memories fade. Unless, of course, something pops up to jar them. And that brings me to something I've never really seen in my decades of governing murders and courts. In June of last year, eight years to the month after Mo and Michael's divorce was finalized, gavel came down, stamped, filed, done. A mysterious notice appeared on a court docket in Columbus, Ohio. The court had scheduled a hearing for this past September in the matter of the McKee Sabaturski divorce. I know. With you. What on earth could that mean? That must be a mistake. Someone got their facts wrong. That's everything I was thinking when I read about this this morning. That divorce was over and done with almost a decade ago. So what did Monique and Michael know about this scheduled hearing? For one thing, the dang thing was canceled just one day after it was scheduled. Okay. Yeah, but don't. Don't think. Oh, well, then nothing. Right then, no harm, no foul. Because a court spokeswoman told USA Today that this was just a clerical error. And to be clear, there's no evidence that this bizarre blip had anything to do with the murders, which happened three months after the appearance date. But we've discovered some things that matter. It makes it less of a blip, less of just clerical error notices go out. Right. And if a notice went out and was received, could it have been enough to reopen an unstable ex husband's old wounds? That is a big question. And earlier today on my News Nation show, I talked to somebody about the ins and the outs of the courtroom about all of this. And you're going to want to hear what she thinks may have happened. Because she's a family court judge, she knows everything about how things are docketed and when mistakes happen, how incredibly dangerous that can be. We also spoke with the court clerk in Ohio. We went straight to the source to get this story right from the horse's mouth. I'm going to play all of that for you, and I think it's really telling. Fair. Very interesting. And I think it's going to play a part as we move forward in the story. Here's my conversation with Tarlika Nunes Navarro. She is a former prosecutor, defense attorney, but more importantly for this conversation, she was a family court judge.
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Ashley Banfield
Thanks so much for coming on tonight, and I'm going to apologize to you as well for this. I call it the Brenda Vaccaro voice. But that doesn't do Brenda Vaccaro borrow any justice. Mine's just kind of like you should.
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Be in bed voice.
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But let's talk mechanics first, because not everybody knows how court dockets and clerks, you know, work. How does a divorce that is closed for almost nine years end up on a docket for a hearing this past September?
- [13:14]
Court Clerk
Well, Ashley, I told you on Monday, the Best is yet to come. We don't know what's happening. It's developing every day. And I told you that more would be happening. And you can see here. This is crazy. Nine years after their divorce, we're seeing court filings, and no one can tell us why. A clerical error. So I went through the docket and I researched a little bit, and if you pull up the. The cases, it actually has their name on it. So what I thought was that my first impression was perhaps a clerical error on a numerical. You know, maybe they put like a 7 instead of a 9, but they had their names on it, which means that these notices were most likely sent to Michael and Mo. So it was either that or it was either Michael went in and tried to reopen this case. Now, I can tell you why that probably didn't happen. If that happened, we would have seen something in the docket showing some type of emotion moving to reopen or a motion to enforce the judgment. So the fact that the clerk's office says it was a clerical error, we have to take them for their word. But what a nightmare. And especially on this case and bad timing.
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Ashley Banfield
Well, you just answered my second question was, could Dr. Michael McKee have prompted this? We've been hearing that he didn't want out of that divorce. I just can't imagine why. You know, eight and a half years later, he'd be making any hay. But what's really concerning is the notifications. A lot of us have found out that Dr. McKee actually moved. I mean, he'd been in Nevada. He was, I think, in June of last year, he took on a new job in Chicago, in Rockford, near Chicago, and move there as well. Do courts chase people down and find their addresses, or do they just go to the lawyers that were last, you know, with these parties?
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Court Clerk
Well, typically, the attorney on file wouldn't be notified, but if you look at the docket, you can see that they were pro se. And so notices would go out to their last known address that was used with the clerk system. So it depends on the jurisdiction, and it depends how automated their system is. And also, we have to consider. Like in here at the state of Florida, we send notices to emails. Now, I do not see their email on file. So that might not have happened, but in other cases, that certainly would happen. So it just depends on the jurisdiction.
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Ashley Banfield
Are there safeguards in place for this kind of thing? Like, I get it, we all make mistakes when we type numbers, but these are massive issues. I mean, I don't have to Tell you, your family court experience is enough to say how ugly and frightening and dangerous any kind of notice from a family court can be.
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Court Clerk
Yeah, of course. I mean, you put this behind you. It happened nine years ago. Imagine Mo, when she received notice of this. If she received notice of this. And what if he received notice and he started looking her up? I mean, that's entirely plausible. In June, these notices were sent out. By the end of June, he could have started researching her, and then he would have seen the videos of her wedding, and it could have triggered something. And he, like you say, it could have just snapped. So, yes, there are safeguards in place, but sometimes it's too late. In my experience. When I was a judge, I had a judicial assistant who would get the incoming notices and they would check the court files and they would make sure that the numbers line up. And if there's an error, then they would notify the clerk. But sometimes the clerk's automated systems already send out the notice. So, yes, there are safeguards, but there are also human errors. And it's entirely plausible that a notice of hearing went out and that perhaps it got to one of these parties.
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Ashley Banfield
When I worked at Court tv, I had a partner named Jack Ford, and he's a professor at Yale. He's a longtime prosecutor, defense attorney. And one of the things he told me, Judge, was that he would rather sit beside murderers than sit in family court cases with those parties. Because it is the most acrimonious kind of litigation that's in court today. And for that reason, I ask you this. What do you think the potential is for a trigger just to get a notice? You're up for a hearing with your ex?
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Court Clerk
Highly likely. He would have seen her last maiden name right on that notice. He would have probably googled her. He would have then pulled up her social media. He would have seen the marriage video that we are all seeing where she's talking about crying those tears of waterfalls and how lucky she was to find him. I mean, all of this could have provoked him. We never know what makes a murderer snap. We study them and we study them, but every. Every human is different. And this is absolutely plausible that this could have created his. His snap.
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Ashley Banfield
Yeah. I'll tell you what, I never forgot those words from Jack Ford. And I have seen them over and over again in my very long career in true crime. Judge, thank you so much for being on. I really appreciate this.
- [18:20]
Mo Tepe did not hide how painful her first marriage had been. Relatives say that she talked openly about the emotional abuse that she suffered at the hands of Dr. Michael McKee and the toll that it inflicted on her. Spencer Tepe's brother in law, Rob Misla, says that Mo told him that her ex, Michael McKee, had threatened her life, and not just once. If you watched my last episode on this case, you heard portions of Rob's conversation with Angenette Levy. And I'm going to play it again because I followed up with Angenette afterwards and there's a lot more that you need to hear. Here's Rob speaking with Angenette from the Law and Crime Network, calling him by name. She would just call him her ex.
- [19:00]
Rob Misla
Husband and just how much of a monster he was, to be honest, emotionally abusive and threatening. And she did everything she could to extricate herself from that situation and, you know, met Spencer and lived a very happy life. But I can't speak for Monique, but I know that it changed her as a person and perhaps it was always in the back of her mind.
- [19:34]
Ashley Banfield
I don't know. I also asked Anjeanette what she knows about that mysterious court clerical error. And here's our conversation.
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Angenette, great interview with Rob and a lot of information that you were able to glean in that interview. Did he ever say that Mo had had any recent contact with her ex.
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Husband, Dr. Michael McKee?
- [19:58]
Angenette Levy
Hi, Ashley. Thanks for having me. He did not say that there was any recent contact. So that is one of the most disturbing things here, because that's the big question, why now? And it would make you think that maybe there had been some contact. But it doesn't sound like the family is aware that there had been any recent contact. That she had been open about the fact that her marriage to Michael McKee was absolutely miserable and that he was emotionally abusive and that he did threaten her and she feared him.
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Ashley Banfield
Do you know if there was any indication that Monique knew about this phantom court hearing that went onto the docket just three months before she was murdered?
- [20:47]
Angenette Levy
I. I don't have any information that she was aware of it or knew about it. I. Maybe somebody closer to her in the family would know that. Maybe a sibling or a parent. But I'm not aware that she was aware of it.
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Ashley Banfield
And I know because you work at the Law and Crime Network, for those of you who follow Angenette, you know that she's got. Sorry, Angenette, my voice is awful tonight. I feel so bad, but I've been.
- [21:15]
Angenette Levy
There, so I feel your pain. I'm so sorry you're going through this.
- [21:19]
Ashley Banfield
Worst thing for a broadcaster. But you do Crime Fix. You've got a program called Crime Fix on the Law and Crime Network. And so you really go into the granular of the legal. And, you know, I was just stunned when I saw this mess up. You know, this happened back in June of last year. The actual filing of this court activity, scheduling a court hearing for September, but then one day later, they changed it. And so I just wanted to get your take on just the strangeness of that and how rare that actually is.
- [21:51]
Angenette Levy
You know, I think that it's not that uncommon. I actually have a friend who lives in Columbus and we were talking about this last week and she said, oh, that's clerical. She said that's clerical error. She said that she had had something similar, just some wonky things that had happened with her divorce case in Franklin County. That's the county where this took place. And so she said that's a clerical error. And actually she told me, because she was so interested in this, that she actually went physically and spoke with somebody at the clerk's office. I haven't checked into it myself because she said it's a clerical error, but she told me she spoke with somebody at the clerk's office and they told her, yeah, that was just like a mistake, an error. And so it wasn't like somebody went in there and requested this hearing.
- [22:40]
Ashley Banfield
Right.
- [22:40]
And my podcast producer actually spoke with a court clerk as well. And that's going to be coming up on my drop dead serious podcast, the Conversation, the information that the court clerk gave her. It's just I would hope that if they automatically send out those notices on the 17th, that when they make the fix on the 18th, they send out another notice apologizing. I just wonder if it's at all possible, Angenette, that that was a trigger because we are all asking the same question. What on earth got into a man if he's the killer, that would make him want to kill his ex wife almost a decade after they split?
- [23:19]
Angenette Levy
And we don't know, you know, this could have been something that was just, you know, boiling within him for a long time. I mean, we know he was practicing out in Nevada for a time and then he comes to the Chicago area. You know, he's working in Rockford. And so was it because he was so much closer to home, was that a part of this? That makes me wonder, was this a piece of that puzzle? And was he maybe. Will we find out through electronics? I don't know this, but will we find out through his electronic devices that he was maybe trying to monitor her. Maybe this is just. He simply just could not let go of her because he didn't want the divorce. You know, I think I told you that the other night, that he did not want this marriage to end. She is the one that wanted it to end. Even though the divorce documents look like it's, you know, it's amicable, they both filed or what have you. He didn't contest it, but the divorce wasn't filed for many, many months. You know, they separated in 2016. The divorce, you know, was filed in 2017. And they went through a private judge which expedited the process or at least was. It was supp too. So he was the one that didn't want the marriage to end. She wanted out.
- [24:33]
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- [25:34]
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- [26:01]
Ashley Banfield
Get started today@weightwatchers.com yeah, I'll tell you what. In this case, I know that there'll be a drip, drip. We'll get a lot of information as it sort of gets sourced or released. And I can only hope that there's again a trial instead of a settlement that keeps Everything under wraps. Because whenever you hear these things, it's informative for people who may be in bad relationships or have situations like this to take it very seriously, because this is the kind of thing that can result. Angenette, I adore you. You're so good at your job. Thank you so much for being on.
- [26:32]
Angenette Levy
Thanks for having me.
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Ashley Banfield
You just heard me mention the court clerk. So let's dig even deeper into the phantom divorce notice that was sent out. It was sent out to both of them. Both parties. Dr. Michael McKee and Monique Tepe. A trial scheduled for just three months before the Tepes were both murdered. And did that notice trigger any behaviors in Dr. McKee? How did it even happen since Dr. McKee and Monique had a divorce that was finalized almost nine years ago? My producer, Lindsey Haller, was able to talk to the court clerk today, got right through to her, had a long conversation to get a feel about how this mistake could have actually happened in the first place. And here's what the court clerk told her.
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Court Clerk
Notice on the case that was filed.
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Ashley Banfield
Yesterday that says hearing mistakenly set on this case instead of case number 1641.
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Rocket Money Advertiser
Okay. And then I also wanted to see if you could help me out. So when. When it is set, are notifications sent out, even if it's a mistake or how does that work?
- [27:48]
Court Clerk
I mean, the parties would have been.
- [27:49]
Ashley Banfield
Mailed their hearing dates.
- [27:51]
Okay, so a quick note about where the notices go. Usually they are sent to the attorneys on record. Right. In this particular action, he was pro se. That means he was representing himself. But Monique seemed to have a lawyer that also signed the documents. So it's unclear if he even got the notice because he moved a few times or honestly, whether she got the notice. Okay, the attorney was there, but did the attorney eventually forward it to Monique? I think yes. I think that attorney would have contacted Monique and said, look, something happened. I got a notice, but don't worry about it. So I think Monique would have gotten it, or the attorney would have gotten the notice and thought, what is this? And contacted Monique. At which point, I'm curious, if Monique would have reached out to Dr. McKee and said, what is this? I didn't do this. Did you do this? So there's a lot that could have happened there. Might Spencer Tepe have reached out if they received this notice to Dr. McKee, might this have caused some aggravation? We don't know. But if notice did reach Dr. McKee, like, how would that have landed? Did it bring up old emotions? Could it have led to a Murder. A double murder. And that brings me to something else entirely. If the police are right, Michael McKee drove a minimum of five and a half hours to Spencer and Monique's home in Columbus, Ohio, but still had to figure out how to get through the front door or a door or a back door or a window. We don't know how he got into the house. You've heard it a dozen times. There were no signs of forced entry when the police arrived on the morning of December 30th. That's what the police have told us. And when friends tried to check on the Tepes an hour or so before that because the first officer messed up and went to the wrong house. So the friends showed up. The doors were apparently locked, but those friends somehow also managed to get in. And by the way, that too hasn't been explained yet. But it is going to be a problem during prosecution because the friends would have been all outside that home and then all inside the crime scene. And that's what we call contamination. And it gives the defense attorney a lot to work with. So that cop messing up and going to the wrong house actually is a big problem for prosecution and conviction. We'll get to that. I know I've talked about it and I'm going to talk about it more. But we do believe this house had a security system because there's a security company sign on the lawn, there's a keypad in the front door, and there's a doorbell cam. And we know that the Tepes had a dog. They had a goldendoodle, which breaks my heart because, you know, the victims in the Idaho massacre, there was a golden doodle there as well. Murphy. Murphy was Kaylee Gonzalez's dog. And Murphy was barking. And the neighbors did hear it. But there are no reports of unusual barking at three or four in the morning on North Force. No, nothing. Nobody's reported anything. At least nothing that's public. So where does that leave us? It leaves me in the dark. But earlier on my news Nation show, I talked to a retired Columbus homicide detective named Dana Farbacher. And here's our conversation.
- [31:09]
Dana, thank you so much for being here. You're absolutely perfect to help me. And I know a lot of my audience has been feeling this, were mystified how on earth police can see no forced entry and this horrible double homicide upstairs in the mass master bedroom. What are your theories?
- [31:27]
Dana Farbacher
There's a couple of different possibilities. I have to believe with modern technology, it may be possible that he could have circumvented any sort of an alarm system. That's one way. Could he have found an open window or open door that he entered and locked behind him? You know, it's. It's a multitude of things. I would hope that if he had just knocked. Knocked at the door, that no one would have let him in at that time of evening. But, you know, you don't know for sure. We don't know exactly how he gained that.
- [32:06]
Ashley Banfield
Let me pull the thread on the. The security system and the. The keypad at the front door. How hackable are those keypads? Or how bad are we at setting our codes using birthdays and Social Security numbers and all the things that an ex husband might know?
- [32:23]
Dana Farbacher
Yeah, those are all strong possibilities. We're creatures of habit, and we like to use numbers we're comfortable with to make it easier to remember. So is it possible. Could he have gotten there and just tried a couple of different numbers to see did they use a birthday, did they use, you know, a Social Security number, whatever, to do that? And that's also a possibility. It's hard to know at this point, and hopefully that's information that will come out as the investigation goes on.
- [32:54]
Ashley Banfield
So, Dana, you mentioned the unlocked windows, and I do want to ask you about that, because to the untrained eye, we wouldn't know if somebody got in through an unlocked window and closed it again. But police officers have all sorts of things that they look for underneath those windows and in the garden, et cetera. Walk me through what some of those things are that would tell them if someone got in through a window.
- [33:16]
Dana Farbacher
If an officer's checking the perimeter of the home, hopefully they're looking for signs not just is the window open, but is the landscaping disturbed in some way? Are there footprints in the mulch or mud? Are there plants planted around the base of the home where you've got a bunch of broken branches now, where it looks like somebody had to climb through an area to get in there. So there are indications you can find of, you know, was somebody. Someone tampering with the window, or was someone in the mulch in the landscaping trying to possibly gain entry?
- [33:52]
Ashley Banfield
Yeah, I keep talking about the footprints that a killer may have left anywhere around that house. That would be mana from heaven for a prosecutor and for police, but could have been disturbed by all those friends that you came later when the police went to the wrong place and friends instead responded. So a lot of those footprints might be compromised. You just touched very briefly on the fact that he might have just been let in. I want to ask you about that? Because I'm trying to go over scenarios in my head at 2 o' clock in the morning where you hear banging on a door, you run downstairs, you're half asleep, you see your ex and maybe he's screaming, help me, help me, I'm in trouble. Mini. Is that possible? Is that something that police might entertain or is that sort of really far fetched?
- [34:36]
Dana Farbacher
I think that that situation will be really far fetched. You know, if you go to a door and knock on it and you turn your back to the door so they cannot see you, you will hood up on a jacket. I would still hope that they would call the police and not open the door to anyone at that time in the morning. Especially I would hope that she had shared the information with her new husband about all the issues she had with Mr. McKee here so that he knew how potentially dangerous he would be, that they would not let him in. But, you know, the only one that can answer that question for us all is, is Mr. McKee, if he's going to share that information with us.
- [35:19]
Ashley Banfield
This is a bit of a non sequitur, but I want to ask it because it's been sort of gnawing at me. The police have been using very specific language when it comes to the vehicle that they trace in the vicinity of the home before and after the murders and then traced back to Dr. McKee. They didn't say it was his car. They said he was in possession of the car. And that made me wonder, would it be a rental? And they debunked that. They said it's not a rental. But do police usually use the words in possession of a car when it's the suspect's car? Or could this be something like a car he borrowed from a friend, borrowed from work, or maybe even stole?
- [35:57]
Allegedly?
- [36:00]
Dana Farbacher
I think those are all possibilities. It's a car he had access to. You know, this is a very emotional crime and he may have committed it for an emotional reason, but that doesn't mean he didn't think through what he was going to do. And instead of driving a vehicle of his own, maybe registered to him, he borrowed one from a friend. Could he have stolen it? Absolutely. You know, could he have paid somebody just to use their car? That's a possibility. You know, the detectives are going to have to do a lot of follow up and figure exactly how it was that he gained access to this vehicle to drive back and forth.
- [36:41]
Ashley Banfield
I just thought that language was odd. He was in possession of a vehicle as opposed to he drove his Vehicle, which is what I'm used to hearing from, from the police. Dana Farbacher, thank you so much for all of this. It's been invaluable. Really, really appreciate it.
- [36:55]
Dana Farbacher
You're welcome. Thank you.
- [36:57]
Ashley Banfield
You know, you can pick up your spent shell casings. You can even ditch the gun. But murders have been solved in even craftier ways, and that's because GSR is a whole other kettle of fish. GSR stands for gunshot residue. And it is difficult, if not impossible, to see. It's pretty darn stubborn, too, when you're trying to get rid of it. It can stick to the shooter's hands, forearms, face, hair, nails, shoes, you name it. It can settle into clothing. It can linger inside of a car. It can transfer onto the seats, the seat belts, the door handles, the steering wheels, the glove box, you name it, whatever you touch. The radio, the ac, if it's on your hands, it's getting on whatever you touch. And if you try to wash it off, it can still stay on your hands and in the sink as well. And it can get on the towels. It can also get into the washing machine. I'm going to get into the specifics of that in a second. While you generally need specialized equipment to find GSR and electron microscopes to analyze it, it tends to play a super sized role in murder cases. So to help me get my head around this, I talked to Leonard Romero. He's a forensic firearms expert.
- [38:08]
Leonard, thank you for being here. I so appreciate this. Is it safe to say that GSR is kind of like what I said off the top of the show? It's like the blue powder dye that blows up into the bank robber's face when he grabs the bag of money and doesn't realize the cartridges inside.
- [38:25]
Rob Misla
Thank you for having me, Ashley. It's correct. Yes. Although it's invisible. That's the big difference. You can't see it, the person that's shooting the firearm. But it is a very valuable clue in some instances to go ahead and associate. Associate a person with firing or being in the presence of fire and being fired or being in an area where there is gunshot residue.
- [38:51]
Ashley Banfield
So we usually, like, listen, we have seen a million times when police apprehend a suspect right there on the scene at the shooting, they bag his hands. They bag his hands to protect it so that they can test for the gunshot residue. But 11 days after these murders, they arrested Dr. Michael McKee. So what do you see, as, you know, the GSR story in this investigation?
- [39:17]
Rob Misla
Well, if he had multiple weapons and he was touching those weapons during that time before they were able to go ahead and bag his hands, which is correct. You go ahead and do that to protect the, the GSR that may be on his hands. But if he has multiple weapons and he's touching those weapons, it's a possibility if there's any positive results that those positive results can come from him actually touching or coming in contact with those other weapons.
- [39:49]
Ashley Banfield
So I've been thinking about all the things that if Dr. McKee is the killer, he might have touched after firing the weapons, getting into a vehicle, touching the steering wheel, the seats, the seat belt, anything, the radio, the ac, something in the glove box, and then upon arriving home, the handle to the building, to the door of your condo and everything else inside your condo. Because presumably it doesn't just shed in about six hours of driving. How long does it stay on you and how transferable is.
- [40:30]
Rob Misla
Depends on the actions of the individual that the GSR was deposited on. Did they clean up? Did they move around? Were they perspiring their activity? What exactly were they doing after the GSR was deposited onto them? It can be found depending on where it is located or where the person had touched. It's extremely transferable. If you were to go test, fire a gun or fire a gun, get back in your car, car and drive and somebody else came and borrowed your car or drove your car, it's a possibility, yes, that that GSR could be transferred onto the other individual who was in the car. It's extremely transferable, but again, how long it lasts with a particular individual or on a particular individual is dependent on their activity.
- [41:22]
Ashley Banfield
So there you have it. We dig deep every single day and we are certainly getting ahead in how and why and oh my God, who may have done this. If Dr. Michael McKee is the killer, the clues are going to be massive. They will be looking for all of them, analyzing all of them, collecting all of them. Even as we speak, we're on this side of the investigation trying to do a parallel with them while they're in the know. But we've just been at this rodeo a whole lot of times. Thank you so much everybody for listening and watching. Thank you for bearing with me as I try to get over this, whatever the heck I have. I'm Ashley Banfield and just remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.
- [42:14]
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