← Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
Did SATG Kidnap Nancy Guthrie? Disturbing Elite Burglary Crew Theory | Nancy Guthrie Missing
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Ashley Banfield
Hey, everyone, I'm Ashley Banfield. This is drop dead serious. Thanks so much for being here. Quick subscribe, please. It's so helpful. I appreciate it. Oh, yes, I have new hair today. It may be temporary. I would love to hear what you think. I know that sounds crazy, but whenever I have new hair, I get so many comments. And the last time I was wearing straight hair, people really liked it. So, okay, this is just a temporary thing for now, but we'll see according to what you say. So let me tell you, today is March 4, 2026. It is day 32 in the Nancy Guthrie investigation. And I wanted to tell you about something that I've been sort of sitting on for a while. It is this criminal network that's operating in the United States. And they are growing and they are in every state, including yours. And these guys are real pains in the asses. Typically they're very burglary, but it doesn't mean that they haven't been violent in the past. And when we look at the Nancy Guthrie story and we cannot figure out what the f happened. I had this long conversation with a retired FBI special agent who had a lot to say about this criminal organization. He also has led the evidence response team in one of the major cities in the United States. So he'll be on in a minute to tell you a little bit about this organization. And then you can compare notes and see if you think that this organization applies to all the things that we've learned about in the Nancy Guthrie case. And then once you hear from him and you learn about this criminal organization, I then have Tracy Walder, who is also retired FBI and also CIA. And by the way, we were both in Afghanistan right around the same time. And we just learned that. We just learned that together. You know, back in the day, we were kind of in the same spot right around the same time. She's going to weigh in on whether she thinks the Guthrie investigation should be thinking more about this group or not. So that's all coming in just a minute. But today, there are a few things to tell you about. Not a lot, though. Not a lot. And here's why I think there's not a lot. For starters, that damn parking enforcement is still up. I talked to Brian Enten today. He said it's still up there, which makes it hell in a hand basket for anybody to do any coverage. So not to say that they're not. In fact, I do have reporting from outside of Nancy Guthrie's home. That was action there today. But of course, as you saw, this massive parking perimeter that goes for blocks and blocks and makes it very, very long, dusty walk through the desert to get to Nancy Guthrie's home. And then, of course, you're stuck there in the middle of the desert in the searing heat, which can go up to around 90. Dusty, dry, hot. You don't have power, you don't have shelter, you don't have water. I mean, come on. Sheriff Nanos clearly was trying to, in my opinion, clear us the hell out of there so that we couldn't do the reporting that people have been doing on this story. And I think that, you know, the very much the people of Tucson, Arizona, have a right to know what the hell happened at that house. Because originally he told us there was nothing to be concerned about. No worries. Nothing to worry about. Right. That is bullshit. And that's why you have reporters to say that is bullshit. And we're here to find out what actually happened because there are other people who live here, you know. Anyway, I digress. Today, the sheriff made a couple of comments about the black gloves. This was sort of a ho hum to me. The sheriff said those. Those black gloves were traced through DNA and at the time, we were told didn't match the DNA inside the home and didn't, you know, hit in Dakotas. But now we're learning that they trace that DNA to a local restaurant employee and that that individual is not part of the investigation. So just a little bit more detail about those black gloves that were found two miles from Nancy Guthrie's home. I never held a lot of stock in those gloves. There were like 16 plus gloves on that particular day that the sheriff had reported they'd found in and amongst sort of the. The rough around Nancy's vicinity of her home. So the sheriff did add this line, kind of a repeat. But lab analysis on other DNA evidence remains ongoing. I think that means IgG, investigative genetic genealogy. I think that they're probably taking that partial sample that they were able to extract from the mixture that they had sent to the Florida lab. Whatever mixture that they found of male DNA unknown to anyone in Nancy's immediate circle, familiar circle. And I'm thinking that, yeah, okay, you didn't get a CODIS strike on that partial because you can't. You have to give a full sample to Dakotas. But. But investigative genealogy does a lot with a partial sample. It can get you lots of your relatives. And then if you check my episode yesterday, it was one of my favorites. Oh, my God, it was such a great episode. I learned about the gumshoe detective work that happens once you get the science finished and you get the names of those who match all the family tree all up to 80 to 100 or so people. And then it's the detectives who just got to hit the pavement and start with weeding out all the potential people that connect to the suspect. So yesterday's episode, highly worth checking it out. But I think that's what the sheriff means when he says lab analysis on other DNA evidence remains ongoing. I think they're doing the IGG stuff. And again, I keep going back to this. Sorry. If you think I'm a broken record, I apologize. But I do appreciate that you're a repeat customer. Thank you for watching multiple times. If you think I'm repeating myself. And I don't think it's crazy to think this. The bite light that the guy had in his mouth, right? You saw him using it. You saw him flashing on the ground as he was trying to find some MacGyver styled item to, you know, Jack, with the. The doorbell cam, you got to put that thing in your mouth, you got to take it out. And usually you use your fingers for that. Yeah. So what's in your mouth? Saliva. What happens when you take something out of your mouth with gloves? Saliva gets on your gloves. What happens with those little fingers of yours afterwards? You touch things like door handles, right? Or sliding doors or windows or, oh, I don't know, maybe that nest cam and the bracket behind it when you're banging the hell out of it or stealing it in any way that you did. My source said it was smashed And Michael Ruiz from Fox said that there were glass fragments found below, below that doorbell cam in the front entrance. So I think that there was DNA inside that house of this guy, thanks to the stupid bite light. But I just think that behind the scenes, it's going to take time. It can take weeks and months to track that genealogical track. But again, yesterday's episode's a good one. Something else that was seen outside of Nancy Guthrie's home today. There was a sign, and here it is. It's like, pretty clear, Please do not leave media as the Nancy Guthrie abduction will go cold. I do not know who put that there. I don't know if it was another member of the media, but that was sitting there. And so we took a picture from Fox News, and there you have it. Also from Michael Ruiz with Fox. There was a white van that pulled up to Nancy's home again today, and it was another flower delivery. Find that odd, but then apparently another woman came and dropped off more flowers. So it's not a good idea to send flowers as well. Meaning as it may be, there's still a lot going on at that home, and I'm sure that the florists probably feel very uncomfortable. In any case, that's what happened. So not a lot of activity outside the home. But I want to tell you about something that's been kind of gnawing at me. I had this conversation with a guy named Tom McAfee. He's a retired FBI special agent in Atlanta, and he ran the Evidence Response Team, the ert. And we saw the Evidence Response Team with the FBI at Nancy Guthrie's home. Right. We knew that they were there. We knew that they had come to Tucson. So Tom McAfee has a lot of knowledge about all things evidentiary that the FBI deals with, especially the response team. And he told me about Sat G. You may sound. You may think that sounds familiar, and it should. Sat G stands for South American Theft Group. South American Theft Group, Sat G. And best way for me to explain it is that it's kind of like a bunch of different groups of foreign nationals from South America, usually from South American descent. And often they enter the US Legally or illegally, and then often stay a little too long, overstay the visas, and then commit crimes like commercial and residential burglaries. This is kind of their lifeblood, Satchi, These gangs of sometimes tourists, right? These are kind of crime tourists. They will come here, they will gather as groups, and they will knock off a bunch of homes. And I've got some specifics about how they typically operate. And when I say typically, you gotta work with me here, guys. It's typical. It's not always. There are outliers. There are people who do things a little differently, but might still be within this sort of satchi realm. And typically they rent vehicles, they use fake IDs, and they use fraudulent documents as they operate. Many of them use multiple burner phones so that they can communicate, but make it really hard for law enforcement to track them and identify them and certainly find their locations. And they also are big into encrypted messaging. Now, there's lots of. You may use encrypted messaging. Nothing wrong with that because, of course, we all feel a little big brothery. But these guys rely on these applications so that they can communicate with each other. And no trail, okay? The targets that they usually, you know, fixate on are expensive homes. Now listen to this part. As I think about Nancy Guthrie's home, this is the description that I get. They often target expensive homes near golf courses, parks, or walking trails because there's better, you know, access and egress points, better known as escape routes. You think about Nancy Guthrie's home, it's not on a golf course, but. But there are trails back there, and there are what looks like parkland. Easy to get in and out, easy dark, not a lot of people would see you, you know, easy to surveil as well. They use a lot of Internet research to do their dirty work. And they surveil. They use commercially available cameras, they use tracking technology, and they study their potential targets before committing a burglary. And I think about Nancy Guthrie's case because we learned from our sources, not from the sheriff, no thanks to the sheriff, that those two different photographs of the perpetrator, some were video. One was a still shot of the perpetrator on the doorbell cam, one wearing the backpack. One, no backpack, that those actually came from different times, different dates. So it lends to the whole casing the joint, surveilling the joint. So that sort of fits into the satgi, you know, modus operandi. They typically break in via back windows, glass doors often targeting second floor entry points. Nancy Guthrie's home doesn't have a second floor, but it sure as hell has sliding glass doors and back doors and back windows. In fact, I think. Gosh, Lindsay, who was it who told us? A guest told us there were six different entry points, I think, into Nancy Guthrie's home. Chris McDonough. So lots of entry points, and several of them glass doors. And the glass windows as well. So they also primarily target jewelry and designer accessories. And frequently they leave behind other things that are even more expensive. Right. So, like, wow, there's this amazing flat screen TV untouched. Right. Maybe some beautiful silver. Untouched. They're going after specific things because these things are easy to sell. They're easy to fence. Right. Get someone else to liquidate it for you. So you got the money, not the goods. So they typically go after jewelry and designer accessories. Now, Nancy Guthrie's 84 years old. I don't think she may be the type to be all into the designer accessories. I mean, it's not a Kardashian sort of situation. Right. But somebody who's older may have acquired a lot of jewelry in her life. Right. Maybe there's something somebody saw on her at some point and thought that would be easy. Again, she's an elderly woman. I might even be able to get it off her finger. Don't know. But I'm getting to that in just a moment because that's high risk when you're starting to go into occupied dwellings. Okay. And sat g, depending on who you talk to. Not typically interested in going into occupied dwellings. And I know where you're thinking, and I'm going to go with you there in a moment, but let me continue. So their operational hubs are typically on the east coast or the west coast of the U.S. so again, they've come up from the southern South American countries and they've sort of headed to both coasts. But it doesn't mean that they're targeting both coasts. They target every state. There's operations in every state. They just focus on the headquartering and maybe the, you know, the dispatch from the west and east coasts. And they use fences, people who will sell the stolen goods that they get in their b and then liquidate it to cash instead of hauling around all these, you know, expensive goods because you're crossing borders. Not smart.
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Tracy Walder
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Ashley Banfield
simple.
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Tracy Walder
Pick up a pack today. Angel soft, soft and strong. Simple.
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Ashley Banfield
In some cases, a portion of the stolen property is actually sent to Chile or Colombia, meaning they actually do send the goods. That's crazy. But, okay, they take the risk and they send them probably via UPS, FedEx mail, however they decide to send it. But most of the profits from the fencing are actually wired overseas. And they keep some of the money back in the US as well. Because like any business, there are expenses, right? If you think about these guys, these are criminal tourists, right, who've overstayed their visas, and they're having to live kind of under the radar a little bit. So they've got rental car expenses, hotel expenses, food expenses, burglary tool expenses. You know, they got to buy their backpacks, they got to buy their hammers and their screwdrivers and anything else they're going to use. Maybe their wi Fi jammers. I'm getting to that in a moment as well. But many of them commit the crimes so that they can fund their own lives back in their home countries or the lives of their families. Right? So it used to be came to America to do a good day's honest work, and then you send a check back home. Okay, well, the honest work went out the window with these guys. They came to America just to fleece us, and they're sending the money home, or they're sending the money so that it'll be there when they get home. And of course, if you think about it, a lot of these people are arriving from the United States. And so their home countries actually do a lot of searching. Like, there's a lot of heavy searching for, you know, people who arrive back from the United States. I'm from Canada, and every time I came back from the United States, you know, I was always nervous because they want to know if you bought a bunch of US Goods and you're bringing it into the country, into Canada, and you're not paying duties, tariffs, you're not paying, you know, the taxes that. And so a lot of countries will search people coming from the US and so because of that, these folks say, hey, not worth it to bring the goods back. Not worth it to bring the jewelry back. We'll get caught at our own home border. So we fence it, we get the cash, and then we can either send the cash through wire or maybe, I don't know, pack it in your luggage. That's also dumb. But they typically send the liquid cash profits home, and they don't try to smuggle the goods necessarily over the border. Again, not always, but typically. This is from FBI.gov I want to read directly. One thing that sets these groups apart from other criminal groups is their brazenness in targeting victims. Rather than trying to fly under the radar, these thieves have deliberately broken into the residence of at least one professional athlete. Getting to that in a moment. It's important to note that crimes committed by South American theft groups victimize all types of people, not just professional athletes or wealthy business owners. They also pickpocket shoppers and steal from retail stores. And my guess is they'll hit up any home if they think they can do it successfully. Now, to the successful athlete. I know what you're thinking. I. I remember Cincinnati Bengals, Joe Burrows, he got hit when he was at an away game. You are right. It happened in December of 2024. Joe Burrow was playing in Texas. I don't remember who he was playing, but. And these guys bust into his home. There were three of them who were charged, burgled his home. Right. Two of them were charged with allegedly moving stolen property against state lines. Interstate, right? Interstate commerce. And then one of them was charged with alleged falsification of records in a federal investigation. These guys took allegedly $300,000 worth of stuff. And when I say stuff, kind of fit the M.O. expensive luggage, jewelry, accessories, all from this football player's home. And they believe that these Sat G members used fake IDs to do this, rented a vehicle, drove across the state lines to commit the burglary, and then drove back across state lines to Florida, carrying all the stolen items back with them to Florida. And so this is the fun part. However, they got their leads, they executed a search warrant. And this was delicious. The investigators discovered that one of the morons who did this decided to take a selfie, right? Where he was posing with his pals, showing all of the stolen property from Joe Burrow's home. Thank you. Bye bye. Clink. You know, easy way to catch a guy who's stupid enough to take these pictures. Look at me with all my booty. You may have heard of something even more recent because during the Nancy Guthrie investigation, from February 1, the first day that she was reported missing, through the entire month of February, this has been like a top news story. And on the 24th of February, there was a big report and I've got information from ABC13 in Houston that 60 plus burglaries were reported in the Houston area. 20 people were arrested and wouldn't you know, South American burglary ring. They recovered 4 million bucks of stolen property. But yeah, you probably heard about it. 60 properties all in one fell swoop. Like, talk about a cluster. And this is how ABC13 reported it.
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Luke Jones
Seven break ins in West University Place and more than 60 across the Houston area. Investigators say this man, Patricio Munoz, was one of the major players behind the Chilean burglary ring responsible. January 28, he and his wife Tanya Barra were arrested by HPD's west side Crime Suppression Team. Together, investigators say Munoz and Barra were funding and directing many of the break inside. Munoz is allegedly selling these jamming devices to a separate Colombian burglary ring. They're used to disrupt home security systems.
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Tom McAfee
They have multiple antennas and radios built into them.
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Luke Jones
Nigel Nielsen owns the IT firm Ideal Tech. He's familiar with the jamming devices, illegal to own under federal law.
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Tom McAfee
It's sending out a really strong signal to overwhelm the signal of your security cameras, your alarm systems, your cell phones.
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Luke Jones
What about police radios? Could it interfere with that?
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Tom McAfee
I would suspect so.
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Luke Jones
Westview police say they found a jamming device on this Chilean burglary suspect during a break in last year. Altogether, Houston police say they've arrested 20 members of the burglary ring and recovered $4 million worth of stolen property. It's the same crime ring linked to break ins at the homes of professional athletes in Ohio, Wisconsin and Kansas. Munoz was previously charged a sentence in Los angeles for the 2022 break in of then Congresswoman Karen Bass. Home what's your country wardrobe?
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Tracy Walder
Chile.
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Tom McAfee
Chile.
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Luke Jones
Munoz and his wife were booked into the Harris county jail last month on charges of tampering with government records. Munoz allegedly caught with a fake Mexican passport and fraudulent car title. His wife, investigators say, had used a fake Argentinian ID to rent an apartment. Days later, Munoz was charged in connection with October 4th break in of a home in this gated Royal Oaks neighborhood. Investigators say he broke in through a window after jumping a fence, then pried open a safe and stole four watches, each worth thousands of Dollars. When police searched his apartment, they say they found watches, jewelry and other pricey items in his child's bedroom. Pry bars and a jamming device, potentially damning evidence in a series of cross crimes spanning across the Houston area and perhaps the country. Luke Jones, ABC13 Eyewitness News.
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Ashley Banfield
Jamming devices. Did you hear that? Jamming devices. Jamming devices. Because in one of the episodes, I think it's two or three episodes ago, we were questioning what was in the pocket of the suspect who's seen on the doorbell cam. To me, it looked like the edge of an iPhone. But when I talked to Maureen o', Connell, right, retired FBI special agent, she knows her stuff. She said, oh, no, no, no, no. That looks like a radio of some kind. Like maybe a walkie talkie or maybe a jamming device. Right, Maybe a jamming device. Because. And Maureen explained this best. If you're going to commit a burglary, you're not going to go with your iPhone hanging half out. And typically your front pocket will fit your iPhone, but it may not fit something bigger like a radio, like a walkie talkie, or maybe a jamming device, because it does kind of look like it might be one of those antennae. Super interesting, though, if I do say so. So I wanted to talk to somebody who knows a lot more about Sat G than I do. And Tom McAfee spent decades with the FBI. Okay. Not only as a special agent, he's retired now, but. But he also was the head of the Evidence Response team in Atlanta where he's from. And I had loads of questions about Sat G. But here's the catch. Tom did not want to discuss the Nancy Guthrie investigation because he feels like it's still, you know, being investigated. So he was happy to discuss Sat G. Just don't freak out if you don't see me jumping right in and demanding that he answer something about. About the Nancy Guthrie investigation. But fear not, because I've also had a very long conversation with Tracy Walder, and Tracy is a former CIA officer and FBI special agent, years and years and years in law enforcement. And she absolutely can see both the benefits and the pitfalls to the idea that Nancy Guthrie's. The crime against Nancy Guthrie may have been committed by the Sat G criminal enterprise. So here first is my conversation with Tom McAfee. Tom, talk to me a little bit about Sat G and what their M.O. really is.
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Tom McAfee
Sure. This SATG, or South American theft group, is a loosely organized crime group that originates out of places like Colombia, Chile, Peru, Ecuador, Venezuela. These are typically non US Citizens that come here on either through a visa waiver program or tourist visa, they overstay, just sometimes just illegal immigrants. And basically what they do is they get into various jobs, typically manual labor, but they end up doing surveillance on residences that are in typically very nice developments. And they target primarily Indian, Asian families where they'll do extensive surveillance of a residence. And then when they go to break in, they typically go in when no one's home. They use technical devices to defeat security systems jammers, and they target those places specifically because those families are known to carry and keep. Maintain large amounts of cash, jewelry, precious metals in their home.
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Ashley Banfield
But you were mentioning they thwart security systems, like with jammers.
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Tom McAfee
Yes, these jammers, again, very sophisticated techniques where they do surveillance and counter surveillance within neighborhoods. You know, typically looking at some of these houses that are maybe abutting a golf course. So they'll use some of the public fairways or thoroughfares behind the golf course to go set up surveillance on the backside of a house.
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Ashley Banfield
And I know you can't address the Nancy Guthrie issue at all, but I've been curious about something I've seen in his pocket, which to me looks like an iPhone sticking out or maybe a walkie talkie. And I keep wondering if it's maybe one of these jammers, but I've never seen. Seen them. But they. You said something very interesting. You said that they often take jobs like as. As manual labor, maybe landscapers. I'm just wondering if that could have been something that applies to the current case that I'm looking at, because that's an easy way to surveil somebody working on the property.
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Tom McAfee
Yeah, I have no. No indication or information about that. But again, typically they. They might work in a neighborhood capacity yard, landscape, things like that, but jobs
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Ashley Banfield
that someone who isn't legal could actually do, because obviously they're here on expired tourist. Tourist visas or some other kind of
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Tom McAfee
visa that they've overstayed under the table type stuff.
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Ashley Banfield
Yeah, yeah. Well, that makes a little bit more sense, though. But I also noticed in our earlier discussions that you mentioned many of them are really highly trained, like paramilitary or even maybe former police.
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Tom McAfee
Yeah, that doesn't go across the board, but there are instances of many having paramilitary or law enforcement backgrounds that come up here and conduct the activities.
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Ashley Banfield
Yeah. And again, I know you can't comment. Comment on that, but when I think of that, I think that doesn't look like the guy who I saw on the doorbell cam at Nancy Guthrie's house, because he looked like a bungling fool. He certainly didn't look like he knew what he was doing or had a plan in place. He looked like he was searching around for a plan as he was going. But, and like you said, not, it's not across the board. So there can be discrepancies in these types. You mentioned that they typically, you know, target Indian and Chinese because of the high number of cash and jewelry that typically these folks might have. But, you know, do they also just typically target high end homes and they may not know what's inside?
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Tom McAfee
Yes, it's affluent, affluent neighborhoods here in Georgia. There have been a number of sagi break ins and arrests, you know, upwards of $600,000 worth of material being stolen from one particular residence. It's very common.
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Ashley Banfield
Well, there was this big Houston cluster too. What, 60 burglaries in Houston, Texas a couple weeks ago.
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Tom McAfee
Yes.
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Ashley Banfield
Yeah. And then, and then the brazenness, and I think about the brazenness again, I think of everything right now, as with the, the prism of Nancy Guthrie's case. But the brazenness of sat g is that they'll go into homes like of Joe Burroughs of the Cincinnati Bengals. I mean, it did. The risk factor is huge and it didn't seem to matter. Talk about the risk factor that comes to sat you folks.
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Tom McAfee
Well, again, typically the targeted residents are not known to have firearms, not known to do a lot beyond just technical surveillance or technical, you know, burglar alarms, things like that. Some of the NFL players, I know that's been very sensitive and I know the NFL is doing a good job teaching their players about these sorts of thefts when they travel because they're gone for a long time. And it kind of makes a unique opportunity for them. So it does, it does go to, you know, hiring a house sitter or something like that to watch some of their stuff. But that was very recent. You know, the, the three out of Cincinnati broke into that house.
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Ashley Banfield
Honestly, just I would have always assumed that some high rolling NFLers got some kind of person back at the home when he travels. They got a lot of money and they could have house managers or staff of some kind. So I was really surprised that they would take that much of a risk. But what about the surveillance? Like what kind of surveillance does Saatchi, you know, network folks typically employ?
- [32:05]
Tom McAfee
It's typically physical surveillance. So that means someone's there looking, you know, in the neighborhoods near where I live, there are, you know, walking paths. And so they'll park in one area and walk through the neighborhood, you know, basically through A securitus route to be able to go through the neighborhood and get into the back, the forests that are behind these houses. And they'll set up back there and just watch for a while.
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Ashley Banfield
What, what's the ideal strike timer? Is it all over the map?
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Tom McAfee
I think it all depends on the victim. We've had some that happen, you know, at mid, mid afternoons and then a lot were in the evening and some in the morning. It just depends.
- [32:48]
Ashley Banfield
And when you say morning, do you mean like overnight, the early morning hours? Yeah.
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Tom McAfee
Correct.
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Ashley Banfield
Yeah.
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Tom McAfee
And you know, the local sheriff's office here, Forsyth county has done a fantastic job responding to these break inside. You know, classic neighborhood watch. You know, somebody sees something and they're calling it in and Forsyth county sheriff's office is on it immediately. And they bring, typically they bring canine tracks, aerial assets, things like that. It's very, you know, overwhelming to find that person.
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Ashley Banfield
But the typical MO of someone with sat G, they don't expect someone's going to be home. Correct. Like they're not, they're not home invaders. They're. They're home burglars mostly. Correct?
- [33:28]
Tom McAfee
Correct. Yeah, that's back in the day, a long time ago, there used to, been, used to be more of the home invasion type. That's kind of changed because the penalties for armed home invasions are a lot different than just a B and E break, an entry type situation. So they, they've kind of evolved their tactics in that regard.
- [33:47]
Ashley Banfield
But how, I mean, other than just straight surveillance, do they employ tactics outside the house, say late at night to make noise, to see if a light goes on? Just, I mean, that's the typical, you know, Hollywood way that you find out someone's home in the middle of the night. But what kind of tactics would they use to make sure before they go in that no one's home?
- [34:08]
Tom McAfee
Well, I haven't seen anything like that where they're, you know, making noise to see if there's a dog or anything like that. Again, it's, it's, it's. They're not very, they're not quick. Right. They are slow and they are patient. So going and watching is, is what they do. And they build up travel patterns and work patterns and things like that. So again, I haven't seen anything like that where they try to, what we call tickle the wire kind of thing to get something going.
- [34:37]
Ashley Banfield
Tickle the wire, Is that, is that what you mean by sort of?
- [34:40]
Tom McAfee
It's an old FBI term for other stuff, but that's what, you know, defaults
- [34:45]
Ashley Banfield
to that, try to prod and pro, you know, prod and see if maybe there's some reaction inside. I would, I would imagine you'd want to know something before you're going to go into someone's home who could have a weapon, right.
- [34:55]
Tom McAfee
If they did that and they got caught, you know, that way, you know, you're out of a, you're maybe out of status, things like that, and you know, then they'll have other problems.
- [35:05]
Ashley Banfield
So are there other ways that they, I mean, you mentioned the jammers that they might bring to thwart a home security system. But do they do other things that are just physical and hands on, like grabbing cameras off their mouths, taking the cameras with them or smashing, you know, smashing spotlights?
- [35:21]
Tom McAfee
I, you know, we haven't really seen that much activity where they're destroying the cameras. You know, there's a lot of commercially available jammers that are out there that's been on Joe Rogan show and Sean Ryan shows things like that where they talk about these, these different jammers that are out there. And so I really can't talk to their techniques with respect to some of those cameras. Most of the stuff that we've seen, it's just been, they go in when no one's there. Now there have been some ring cameras that actually led to a police response, but a lot of them don't have that.
- [35:55]
Ashley Banfield
And are they typically masked? And you know, I, I only ask that because if your jammer doesn't work and you're on camera, because most people have doorbell cams now, have they figured out a way to get around that with these, you know, big ski masks?
- [36:08]
Tom McAfee
A lot of folks will have masks. And you know, again, that goes all part to like when you get apprehended, you'll have these tools, burglary tools, which be a mask, hammer, things like that to break windows or whatever.
- [36:21]
Ashley Banfield
So, so to that end, do they usually have a kit in a backpack or something with them that they'll bring tools with them?
- [36:27]
Tom McAfee
Absolutely.
- [36:28]
Ashley Banfield
So talk to me about that. What kind of kits do you know of?
- [36:31]
Tom McAfee
That's the classic beanie tools. Screwdrivers, hammers, you know, things like that, wire cutters, all sorts of stuff. I mean, they're not, when I say they're sophisticated, they're, you know, there's a, there's a lot of really sophisticated jewelry thieves out there, you know, that break in after hours to places and do techniques like that. Some of these guys are like that. A lot of them are not, you know, they're just Again, they're opportunists. They can break a window, they can break a door and get in.
- [36:59]
Ashley Banfield
Do they typically carry backpacks?
- [37:03]
Tom McAfee
Many of the ones I've worked with and worked on, I should say, have bags and tools. Yes.
- [37:11]
Ashley Banfield
How often does a member of Sat G or its ilk actually injure someone in the home or worse, kill them or you know, after that, remove the person or the body?
- [37:26]
Tom McAfee
I can't really speak to that. I mean, there was, there was one several years ago, an armed home invasion, my best recollection. But nothing, nothing recently, again, they've evolved their tactics to try and minimize the crime that they're facing.
- [37:42]
Ashley Banfield
So they typically do not want to injure or harm or kill or steal a body. That's not what they do. But is, is, are there examples of that?
- [37:51]
Tom McAfee
They try to avoid contact.
- [37:53]
Ashley Banfield
But do you know if in their, in their background their. Are examples of them doing these things?
- [37:59]
Tom McAfee
Nothing, Nothing initially, to me, you know, stands out. Sorry.
- [38:06]
Ashley Banfield
No, no, that's okay. You mentioned to me last weekend that there, there is evidence of that There is evidence of them killing and taking bodies before.
- [38:12]
Tom McAfee
But is that not taking the body? But there was, there was one where it was, it was a violent, a violent break in armed home invasion. That was years ago. That was like crew out of Detroit, I believe.
- [38:26]
Ashley Banfield
Are the statue members typically armed?
- [38:30]
Tom McAfee
Some are. Again, you know, what do you consider armed? Someone coming at me with a hammer, I consider armed. So those are. Whether they're carrying firearms, I can't say to all the groups. Again, there's no, you know, one particular set. Right. Some of these, some of these groups have more violent members than others. And then I have different tactics and techniques that they use.
- [38:57]
Ashley Banfield
And what's the proliferation like of satg across the country?
- [39:03]
Tom McAfee
It's, it's fairly extensive. You know, everywhere from east coast to west coast, you know, kind of travels up into, you know, the, the Northwest. It's pervasive.
- [39:17]
Ashley Banfield
And they travel no states.
- [39:19]
Tom McAfee
Just because they're live in one place doesn't mean they go to, they don't go to another state to do it. And that's where the federal nexus comes in. Right.
- [39:28]
Ashley Banfield
Do they leave a kind of calling card behind? Is it obvious when you see these statue operations?
- [39:33]
Tom McAfee
No, it's, that's more of a. Investigative steps that we, we end up doing, you know, the, the investigation portion, which I really don't want to get into how we find out who they are, but that's, that's how we end up finding, finding them through some of Our techniques that we have.
- [39:50]
Ashley Banfield
Right, right.
- [39:51]
Tom McAfee
Do you think, again, that's where we get. That's where we get. The federal nexus is when they're traveling between state lines or taking stolen property over state lines. It's interstate transportation. Stolen property.
- [40:02]
Ashley Banfield
Right. Do you think that that Sat G is satisfied with its fairly nonviolent get in, get out, just get the jewels and go MO Or. Or do you think they may be stepping up their game at some point? In certain places with certain factions, these
- [40:17]
Tom McAfee
guys can make a significant amount of money. And if they hit. I don't know if, you know, you can speculate on. On different motives for these folks to do stuff, but they can. They can do very well. And again, they. What they steal, they typically have to go through a pond or a fence to. To get rid of it.
- [40:37]
Ashley Banfield
Given how much we now know about satg, are we making good inroads to thwart or bring to a halt their operations?
- [40:51]
Tom McAfee
I don't think he can bring it to a halt. I think the FBI has done a fantastic job tracking this down again, working with local authorities like Forsyth county sheriff's office, Atlanta pd, Places like that. We've stopped numerous crews like this. It's just a classic break in strategy. So it's going to be difficult, but the bureau has resources and expertise in this area.
- [41:18]
Ashley Banfield
Tom McAfee, it's great of you to talk to me. Thank you so much. I've learned so much about this organization, and it's jarring, to say the least. But I appreciate everything you've done and what you've said for us.
- [41:29]
Tom McAfee
Happy to help.
- [41:29]
Ashley Banfield
My great thanks to Tom McAfee. Guy knows what he's talking about. He's obviously got a lot of experience with Satji, but now I wanted to see how it applied to the evidence thus far that we know of in the Nancy Guthrie investigation. And for that, I turned to Tracy Walder again, former CIA officer and FBI special agent. And she knows a thing or two about why this may or may not be Saatchi. Have a look. So, Tracy, I'm fascinated by the whole notion of how Saatchi operates, but I'm trying to wrap my head around how it might apply to the Nancy Guthrie case. Do you think that they've thought through a lot of the possibilities of Satji?
- [42:07]
Tracy Walder
I mean, honestly, actually, I would hope so. Right. Because they have to essentially game out every situation. Right? Cartels, single one offs, stalker, all of it, they have to game out. So I would hope that this has come across their minds. I mean, Sat G does exist in Arizona. They have done things in Arizona. So it wouldn't. I don't want to say it wouldn't be a surprise because it would be. But I don't think it's that off base. Right. For them to at least examine this particular lead.
- [42:35]
Ashley Banfield
Well, what, what. I think the biggest barrier to me thinking it might be a satg operation is that it doesn't appear that anything was stolen except a person. And Sat G is not in the business of taking people for ransom that I know of.
- [42:53]
Tracy Walder
You're 100% right. So this group, they've done. I mean, they've done robberies in California, Pennsylvania, Arizona, really all over. And, you know, it's crime tourism, if you will. And so this group typically only operates between 4pm and 10pm like they have a window that they operate, which is so interesting. And they're in small kind of fluid teams. And they're not. I mean, a robbery is violent. Right. But they're not violent in the sense that they are wounding people and taking people. Their whole goal is for unoccupied homes. That is why they spend so much time and effort on surveillance, very intricate surveillance. And so it just doesn't jive here with. With what happened because this is essentially violent. Right. You're taking someone is violent.
- [43:41]
Ashley Banfield
So Tom McAfee mentioned that they will also often operate in the middle of the night, which sounds a lot like the Nancy Guthrie case.
- [43:48]
Tracy Walder
Yeah. Listen, just because I said 4 to 10, that's just what probability. You're just looking at the whole of what they have done. It's not to say that there haven't been ones, but if they're operating in the middle of the night, it is because someone isn't home, then that is really what their MO is. It's not that they haven't ever done that before. And there have been times where. Where people have been home and you know what? They actually tend to leave because they don't want. They want to be able to go back. Right. And they are taking advantage of that visa waiver program. And so they want to go back and sell those goods that they have on the black market. That is the whole point of why they're doing what they're doing.
- [44:30]
Ashley Banfield
And they don't like the elevated risk of going into an occupied home.
- [44:33]
Tracy Walder
Correct. It brings in. You're 100% right. It brings in so much risk. Right. You have a risk now of potentially being violent. You are now, if you're caught, adding additional charges to that. Right. If you're violent yeah, but you know what?
- [44:46]
Ashley Banfield
I keep thinking about Tracy, and I think a lot of people miss this. In an early New York Times article, reporter interviewed a friend of Nancy Guthrie who said that she's recently started using these high powered hearing aids. And that makes me wonder if anybody who's testing the waters outside to see if anybody is inside would think no one's inside. Because at night you take those hearing aids out, and she might not hear any rustling outside or, say, breaking of spotlights or cameras or anything like that.
- [45:19]
Tracy Walder
I agree with you. I. I think on actually, my only, like, pushback to that would be because this group, from what I know about them and all the different cases that I've looked at about them, is the amount of surveillance that they do in advance. And so they would, in my opinion, have understood her pattern of life, right? And they would have had a reasonable expectation to know. She would have been home and would have been asleep if they had been conducting that very thorough survey. I mean, they'll pose as dog walkers, delivery drivers, Uber drivers, you know, all of those things. And so if it is this group, I don't feel they would have made that mistake because of the careful surveillance that they do.
- [46:05]
Ashley Banfield
Is it possible? And again, because I think the FBI and perhaps the sheriff as well is gaming out as many scenarios as possible, is it possible that in one of the earlier, you know, alleged surveillance runs, they may have taken out lights or they may have done things late at night that made them think. Her pattern is that no one's there at night because there's no response. There's no light that comes on when there's a loud noise outside.
- [46:31]
Tracy Walder
You're right. You know, motion detectors, right? All of those kinds of things. So I think that's entirely possible situation because they have to game all of these out. That is like, that is good police work, right? That's good investigatory skills. And so they have to game all of this out. So they absolutely could have done something like that. And I agree with you. I don't think think she knew someone had broken into her home. And I do think even though she wasn't recording right, on the. They weren't recording to the cloud, she was probably getting alerts right on her phone when, you know, wildlife was it on her camera. And I think she would have slept through those, right, because her phone would have been on silent. And so I am 100.
- [47:10]
Ashley Banfield
Even if it weren't. Right. Even if it weren't, she wears these hearing aids that are very powerful. And so listen, my mom has these not so powerful hearing aids. And at night, she can't hear very well at all. I don't think she'd hear me rustling around.
- [47:23]
Tracy Walder
100%. I completely agree with you. And they absolutely could have altered the scene. And because everything was so still. Right. And quiet and dark. This is a very dark area. 100%. I think it's not outside the realm of possibility. I'm just giving a typical situation that I would have thought, based on this activity of this group, that they. They would have done thorough surveillance. Let's put it that way.
- [47:49]
Ashley Banfield
Yeah. And listen, we're not getting. We're getting a lot of mixed messages about the two images. One with the backpack, one without the backpack being on different days. And if you ask the sheriff, apparently we're all crazy. But if you ask every reporter's sources who. A lot of them are extraordinary. Absolutely. They're from different days. So it appears that there may have been some surveillance. And yet with surveillance, it sure doesn't look like the guy approaching the camera had been there before or knew what to do. Sort of seemed surprised by the camera and was looking for a MacGyver way of handling it.
- [48:25]
Tracy Walder
You're right. And that. So then that brings into question. I completely agree with you. Listen, Ashley, I feel that this is two different people. And I totally get that we're getting mixed messages. I do, I do.
- [48:35]
Ashley Banfield
You think it's two different people?
- [48:36]
Tracy Walder
I do, because I think. I think it looks similar and they're wearing similar clothes. But I've always said before, what's going to be critical in this case, in my opinion, is how they got her out. Right. Because she's not mobile. Right. There's. There's a lot that goes into it. So you're not walking blocks, miles away. Right. With a person. Someone is there in a vehicle somewhere around. Obviously not like right up to the house, but somewhere around. And so part of me wonders if it's not the same person, because to your point, I do not understand the whole weed or whatever that plant was. Right. That they were putting up.
- [49:15]
Ashley Banfield
I have my theory. I have my theory. I don't think they're trying to cover the camera at all. I think if you look at his fists, I think he's trying to loop that vine and yank the camera off from its bracket. That's what. And look at it next time and see if that's what you see when you see how his fists are. Yeah.
- [49:33]
Tracy Walder
You know what? I never looked at that. But I'm going to go back now and Rewatch it. But I think I don't. Based on how inexperienced both of them. See, because if you're conducting surveillance, if this is a different person on that. That day, which I really think is that January day where they told everyone to get the footage, he would have never come in the camera view. If you're that sophisticated, why are you coming that close? Clues. Right to the ring door camera, to the ring doorbell. Excuse me. And I just think this group wouldn't have done. They're not perfect, but wouldn't have made a mistake like that. So because now you have two images of this person.
- [50:10]
Ashley Banfield
Here's. But here's my pushback on this being two people. They're the Bobsy twins, the way they're dressed. Yes. And it would be very significant to see these mass purchases of matching items because it's pretty hard to get all that on the black market, secondary market, ebay, Etsy or wherever else they shop. They. They have exactly the same outfits on almost head to toe, except for those shoes, which I think are different.
- [50:36]
Tracy Walder
I think they just shared an outfit. I think their build might be similar. And listen, it could be just one person. I truly don't know. I am 100% guessing at this point. Right. Just based on what I'm seeing. But I would think that someone, if it was the same person. We always in the FBI talk about the fatal funnel. Right. Like you don't want to be in the dangerous parts of a situation. And so to stand right in front of that door for that long, messing with the security camera, doing what you're doing. We don't know how long they were there total, but it was a long time. In the clip that we saw. That's a weird thing to do, and that's a very vulnerable thing to do. And if this person had seen. Seen the house before, I don't know why they would do that. You would get in, get out, go home. Right. That's how long it worked.
- [51:20]
Ashley Banfield
Yeah. I'm still not 100% convinced they were in for 40 some odd minutes. Just what everybody says from the initial, you know, images on the camera. Well, we don't know if those are the initial, but my, my thought is that they've been mucking about trying to find as many cameras outside and obviously spotlights to smash and may have been inside for a much shorter period of time. But just let's go back to the Sat G hallmarks. They often enter, and again, this is generally not always, but they often enter through back windows or glass doors, usually looking for jewelry or designer accessories. Now an 84 year old woman's not going to have a lot of designer accessories necessarily, but she did have a million dollar home. And if you think of it, very easy target. Even if you are going to up the risk and go in in the middle of the night, pretty easy target that an 84 year old woman, A might not hear you or B might would be paralyzed with fear and certainly wouldn't fight back.
- [52:16]
Tracy Walder
You're right, it's a very easy target and it's also a very similar target. They tend to target higher end homes. Right. So multimillion dollar homes. This is not a neighborhood they wouldn't target. I know that sounds terrible but it's within their mos, like we said, their generalizations of who they are. But yes, they typically enter through rear doors, windows, those kinds of things. So this person came in what we think came in the front door based on, on that camera and what we see on the crime scene. And so that is in my opinion a little bit different. But yes, you're right to that, to that point. If they're targeting a home where you have a couple our ages right in it, they are more likely to be a threat to you. Right. If you enter their home just because we're a bit more able bodied, they may have viewed an 84 year old woman as just a non threat and a non issue. But and I think it was you who mentioned this, if you're going to rob a home, if that's your sole purpose, you're not going to take someone with you that really sort of bogs you down. And so that's where that like differs I guess a little bit.
- [53:17]
Ashley Banfield
So I asked about that and because I agree if you're going to rob the home and you're going to take the person, you're going to take something for your effort as well as the person. And that the Saatchi organization isn't known for maiming, hurting, killing or even being armed a lot of times. But that it has happened, that it is certainly not outside of the reality for Satji to injure or maim or even take someone with them.
- [53:42]
Tracy Walder
It's not, I don't want to share too much because it's someone I know personally whose parent was the victim of this, also lived in a very high end neighborhood in a state that they target quite a bit and she did have a weapon pulled on her. The mom actually was home. They did enter through a backwater window though. And what's interesting is the mom wasn't supposed to be home, though. She wasn't supposed to be home on that day at that time. But it is something they've done. I know that firsthand. So once they saw her, they actually left with nothing. So it's not to say that they've never done that. They absolutely have. I know that just personally, but they didn't attempt to harm her. They seem to be more concerned, oh, we might get caught, we're going to go ahead and leave. And that's. And that's what they did.
- [54:34]
Ashley Banfield
Well, the other thing is, I wonder if, you know, of course, we think about all the different scenarios and one of the reasons that somebody might do something completely out of the ordinary and that is take the person, take the victim with you, alive or dead, is that they may have engaged and shot the victim. And now the forensics are in the victim. Therefore you are leaving your calling card behind in the way of a bullet and must take the victim. Is that, is that something you think that is plausible or far fetched? I mean, again, she's 84, you don't need to shoot, but it's dark and you don't know maybe who it is.
- [55:16]
Tracy Walder
Nothing is outside of the realm of possibility.
- [55:18]
Ashley Banfield
Right.
- [55:18]
Tracy Walder
We don't want to just dismiss things. I think that they have probably already gamed out that situation and I do think that at this point they would have said that there was enough forensic evidence at the scene to determine that it's not compatible with life. Right. Of the victim. But maybe that. Holding on now that you.
- [55:38]
Ashley Banfield
I'm sorry to interrupt, but now that you mention it, I think they actually might have mentioned that there wasn't a discharge of a weapon in the home.
- [55:44]
Tracy Walder
Yes.
- [55:46]
Ashley Banfield
So that's out. That whole idea is out.
- [55:48]
Tracy Walder
I think that's out because they would have. I think that was mentioned, but I couldn't remember, so I didn't want to bring it up. But I think that they would have been testing for gsr. Right. They would have been testing for all of those things and that would have come back, especially if it was a close shot or something like that. It would have been on the bed, wherever something like that would have happened.
- [56:08]
Ashley Banfield
So the only other forensics that, that the suspect could leave behind would be if he bled on her or if, you know, the bite light somehow came out of his mouth and she was there and maybe it hit her or some other reason. It's an awfully long way to go to protect yourself from a little bit of your DNA being on the victim. You could just take whatever it is she's wearing and force her into the shower rather than taking a woman that age that, you know, know is going to be a burden and probably might not survive it.
- [56:40]
Tracy Walder
Yes. I mean, essentially viewing that person. Right. As evidence that you need to conceal, that's. That's rare. And what tends to happen is that person trying to say this in a sensitive way is disposed of close to the crime scene. Because the more you have to take that person away, the more steps you're leaving, the more potential for evidence.
- [57:05]
Tom McAfee
Right.
- [57:06]
Tracy Walder
All of those things become a huge, huge, huge problem. And I think, I think because she didn't really put up much of a fight, I really don't think that she did. This is different than like in the Idaho case, right. Where forensic evidence was found. Because those girls and male put up a fight. Right. They're young and they put up a fight. And I think that's the part of, part of the reason we are not seeing a lot of fruitful forensic evidence coming out of that home. I just. And I also think too, in the case of, you know, this, this gang, I just don't think they would go that far to destroy the evidence like that.
- [57:48]
Ashley Banfield
Also, when a sat G strike happens, is it usually in a cluster? I'm thinking about this one that was just, you know, a week or so ago, like on the 24th, and it was in Houston. 60 plus burglaries. So it's either hers was the first home and it went terribly awry and they abandoned the rest of the plan, or they just chose one home in a really difficult place to get to, which seems implausible.
- [58:15]
Tracy Walder
So you're absolutely right. They do tend to occur in, in clusters of time. So sometimes we'll go months, even years. Right. Without an attack. Right. Or a target by them. And then we'll see just cluster. Dozens of clusters, dozens of homes being hit. I don't know. There was a cluster, I'm sure you remember this, of a lot of athletes homes.
- [58:33]
VRBO Announcer
Right.
- [58:34]
Ashley Banfield
Being Joe Burrows. Right.
- [58:36]
Tracy Walder
In and. But lots of different. They were all even one down the street from me in Texas. The same thing. They were all hit in these clusters. And that is. Tends to be how they work because of their tourist visa. Right. That is why they are in these clusters. And so to have just this one off. Right. And then we haven't heard of anything. At least I have not heard of anything from Pima county in terms of these robberies and clusters. Maybe you have. I have not. I don't see any clustering at all. In this case, it's just a singular kind of one off.
- [59:05]
Ashley Banfield
Last question. And you know, if this is Satji, and I see a lot of reasons why it may not be, these people typically leave. You know, again, they're, they're here, they're overstayed, and eventually they want to get home with whatever bounty they were able to effectuate in the US Whether they fenced it and wired it or not. How much more difficult would that make it to find this person now that we're likely on an IGG an, you know, investigative genetic genealogy track, if they're not here,
- [59:40]
Tracy Walder
it would be difficult. But, and I've said this before, in terms of this investigation, I do think that because of the proximity to Mexico, there's no question that they've utilized Interpol in terms of submitting all of that. And so I do think if they're able to get at least some a partial, they could probably try to marry it up with Interpol is going to make it a lot more difficult. 100%. But I do believe, believe that they have submitted some of that to Interpol. There's no question, just simply because of the proximity.
- [60:12]
Ashley Banfield
So what's your, what's your gut that when it comes to sat g hard stop? Not a chance, or hey, anything's possible.
- [60:20]
Tracy Walder
Listen, I never want to say hard stop, right. I don't think that's ever fair. And in a case like this, I just feel based on what I know and what I followed of them, this doesn't seem to pattern who they are. But, you know, again, anything is possible. I just, my gut tells me that this isn't them based on the patterns of their, their behavior.
- [60:40]
Ashley Banfield
Tracy Walder, I love talking to you. I wish I had your brain. Thank you for doing this.
- [60:45]
Tracy Walder
Well, likewise, Ashley. Thank you for having me.
- [60:48]
Ashley Banfield
And so that's where things stand, you know. Here we are, day 32, March 4th, coming towards the end of week five. And I will say it again, I think this crime is going to be solved. I do, I really do. I think there's so much going on behind the scenes that we don't know about. Like in Coburger, you remember, we thought, oh, these bungling idiots in Moscow and the pd, they don't know what they're doing. It's just some car and that's all they've got. No, they had a lot more and it just took time. The igg, the familial connections that they were able to get from that sense back of DNA that was on the knife sheath that that idiot Bryan Coburger left behind at the crime scene, it just took time to find his giant web of family. Fourth, third, second cousins, grandfather, grandmother, aunts, uncles, siblings, parents, you name it, they got that wide group of people. And it just took time to figure out who in that giant group might be the perp. Right? And they did it. But it takes the gumshoe work. Again, yesterday's episode. It takes the gumshoe work of going through that with detectives who hit the pavement and literally go asking and collecting and seeking and then, you know, cutting the weed away from the chaff. And that's how they eventually get to their guy. That is what might be going on as we speak at this moment. And God, I hope so, because again, whoever that glove fisted prick is who did this, he spat on his damn fingers. He did. With that bite light, you know he did. And those fingers touched something, a lot of things at Nancy Guthrie's home. And God, I hope they did a better CSI than they did in those first 24 hours, because that DNA is in that home. And if they've got it, it's just a matter of finding all his relatives and eventually finding him. And to that end, if you know anything, if you know somebody who behaved in a weird way just wasn't themselves, February 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, whenever behave weird. When that video came out, like all of a sudden they missed work. No good explanation. Behavior change. If you know people like that who fit maybe this description. 1-800- call FBI if you know anything. 1-800- call FBI. There is a million dollars waiting for you to help solve the Nancy Guthrie case. And maybe you can be the one that really puts this to an end. Find justice for the Guthrie family. Find justice for Nancy Guthrie. And hopefully let's find Nancy. Thank you so much, everyone for listening. Thank you so much for watching. And remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.