George (3:43)

No, thank you. Thank you, Ashley. Thank you for having me on.

Ashley Banfield (3:46)

Yeah, it's a lot. You know, everybody thinks jury duty, how do I get out of it? But you're an example of a shining fellow American who didn't do that. And you did your civic duty. And I know you're smiling, but I'm really pious about this stuff. I think it's really important. So with that, all said, did you agree with the verdict?

George (4:03)

I did. I did agree with the verdict. You know, through the whole thing, I took a lot of notes. I think about 350 pages worth of notes, about three steno pads worth of notes. I wasn't actually the one that took the most notes. There was others that actually took more notes than I did. I think four steno pads. But I think if I was able to, given the chance to deliberate and review all my notes, review all the evidence, everything I needed to see, and also, most importantly, review the judge's charges, I would have eventually reached the same conclusion that the other the 12 jurors found.

Ashley Banfield (4:43)

And of course, there you were, the 12 went off into the room and you didn't get to be the fly on the wall in the room. But did you all have the same sense? I know you weren't allowed to talk about the facts of the case, but you were with these people for what, seven weeks straight?

George (5:00)

Seven Weeks.

Ashley Banfield (5:00)

Did you all get the sense that everybody felt the same way all the way along, or was it poker face? You couldn't tell.

George (5:07)

You know, it was. I think, in a sense, we were just all hoping. We were just kind of waiting for it to end, you know, every day. I think it was just because there was so much evidence and so much testimony, and it was like, as you said, it was seven weeks of witness after witness after witness after witness. So I think we were hoping for the. For it to come all together, and we were really waiting for the judge to give us his instructions to know what the definitions are, what we were actually looking to do. So I think we had an open mind this entire time, and we were just. It really was like a show, and, you know, we were just, you know, the audience and just waiting to hear everything, whatever both sides present to us and then make the ruling.

Ashley Banfield (5:59)

So with that. Yeah, with that, I want to go sort of granular down to each of these charges, because when you listen to the prosecution's closing argument, she said to you, you can agree to have a lot of sex. And then if you don't agree just one time, that's sex trafficking. And I felt like there was evidence where both Jane and Cassie said, I don't want to do this. And there was pressure. There was either force, fraud, or coercion. Did you not agree? Did you think that the women were not telling the truth?

George (6:38)

No, no, no. From the beginning, you could tell that. I mean, especially Cassie, you know, when she came in, she was, you know, very visibly pregnant. I mean, she was extremely pregnant. And even when Jane came, I think both of them were very credible. But as you listen to their testimony, and both of them, Their testimony went for days. I think as you listen to them, some parts of their story at times, you know, seemed, you know, seemed like certain parts didn't really. There were a little bit holes, especially when you under cross examination, you know, it raised a little bit levels of. Of doubt, especially in my mind, on certain things, George.

Ashley Banfield (7:26)

So I get that. I definitely. I definitely get that it raises certain levels of doubt because there's. I love free coughs, right? There's that text message. I love to free cough with you. But do you believe, George, and do you think your fellow jurors believed that Cassie. And let's just put Jane aside, that Cassie at least one time did not want to be a part of that. So say, for instance, after the escort testified, that he could hear what sounded like Diddy beating her in the next room, and then they came back in and he said, finish strong. Did you believe that maybe that was an instance where Cassie truly did not want to finish, but she was coerced into finishing that free cough, you know.

George (8:13)

When looking at it, when looking at everything. And then because defense, when they were showing the counter arguments, they would always show the after effects of some of the, especially the text messages. And in those instances, there was also a lot of saying thank you sometimes or I had a great time. So those kind of instances, they really did, I think, raise a little bit of doubt. And then just to know that these freak offs were done in with free will.

Ashley Banfield (8:47)

Well, that's what I mean. So I think many of them seemed to be, according to the evidence, she was into it. She was organizing and saying thank you and all the rest. But that one free cough, that's why I get down to the granular. The one free cough where the escort said I could hear her being, what sounded like her being beaten. She came out and Diddy said, finish strong and did that. Is it possible, again, in a reasonable, not beyond all measure of doubt, just a reasonable doubt, is it possible that Cassie did finish that freak off under coercion because she had just been smacked around in the room next door?

George (9:24)

No, it very well could be. But I think when you look at everything together, there was some doubt that, that the jury had to convict to say that those two counts were not guilty.

Ashley Banfield (9:42)

And maybe, I don't know if you agree with this, George. Maybe there was too much information. Maybe the prosecution just handed you way too much to be able to kind of sort through it all again on that granular level. Is that fair?

George (9:55)

I think it is fair. I mean, there was a lot of information, I have to say. I mean, every day when I would leave the court, it was just like, you really didn't know, like, where to even, like, begin. A lot of times I would just walk home from the court all the way up to Grand Central just to kind of clear my mind of all the things, because it's just, you know, it's just a lot of information. There's a lot of exhibits that they kept presenting. So. And every day was just, I always just came with an open mind. And it just, I really didn't have any. My mind made up in either way really, until the end, until we were really waiting, until the, the Judge gave his 62 page instructions on what we need to do. And that's, I think what we were, I was waiting for was just, why are, you know, what are we here for?

Ashley Banfield (10:50)

By the way, it is. That's like every day I try to do my math right. So that's a lot. That's a long walk. I have one last question. I'm going to make it brief because I'm running out of time. But I am so curious because as I watched all of this testimony and the witnesses, every single day, I felt like I saw evidence of bribery, kidnapping, extortion, assault, corroborated by several witnesses, testimony and messages. And those were all the, the predicate act in order to find rico, the racketeering. And yet the jury found no racketeering. Why do you think that is?

George (11:29)

I think, you know, racketeering and I mean, from what I understood, it's a very, I mean, all the charges are very hard, are very high bar charges. But when you look at the different counts, I think the defense raised some doubt in each one of them, especially, you know, kidnapping, arson, forced labor, all of those different charges because you had to find them in two. I think there was always a little bit of doubt. The prosecution did an excellent job. I have the highest regards for all the prosecutors. I was very impressed with them. But the defense did poke some holes in the witnesses arguments on those, some of those charges.

Ashley Banfield (12:15)

They did their job.

George (12:16)

They did their job. They did what they were doing.

Ashley Banfield (12:17)

They poked a lot of holes. George? Yeah. They got you to reasonable doubt. They got your colleagues to reasonable doubt. One last quick question. I knew that I said that was my last question, but I do have this one. Can I ask you this? What do you think of Sean Combs as a man?

George (12:34)

Well, any man who, who does domestic violence isn't much of a man, in my opinion. You know, anyone that beats a woman, hurts a woman, is not a good person. And that was from the beginning. They had, even the defense admitted that Sean Diddy Combs is a, you know, he's a very flawed individual. So, you know, I'm glad that the evidence was overwhelming that, you know, he's found guilty on these two charges. So I'm glad that, you know, he is going to, you know, he is going to face justice.

Ashley Banfield (13:13)

Serves the time. Yeah.

George (13:15)

So I'm happy for that. I hope he gets the max, whatever he can get.

Ashley Banfield (13:21)

Did you. Were you about to say you hope he gets the max?

George (13:23)

I said I hope. You know what, it's the judge's discretion for whatever, you know, however the sentence. But I hope, I hope and I know the judge has been fair this whole time. So I hope, you know, it's the maximum, whatever is possible.

Ashley Banfield (13:38)

That's Interesting. I want to thank you again for your civic duty and all those days and weeks and the mental anguish of going through it. It's a tough job, but I'll bet if you're like most people I ask, I bet it was very, very rewarding. And I think you get a break from jury duty for a long time. George, thank you for doing this tonight.

George (13:56)

Thank you again. Thank you for. Thank you for having me on.

Ashley Banfield (14:00)

So appreciated. Okay, so. What a guy. I mean it when I say I am so appreciative of jurors who give us like seven, eight weeks out of their lives. Like, that's a big old deal. So I'm super thankful. My overall take on this is that while the prosecution did a phenomenal job, I believe they did an incredibly thorough job in investigating and then presenting. And they got hosed by. I believe Gina was the one that stepped away and said, I don't want to be a part of this trial. I'm not showing up for testimony. I think it was too much. I think it was too much. I think the jurors, as you heard from George, had so much to contemplate. They had so much to remember. I'm in this business, and I was forgetting. I couldn't remember the name of the escort in week one who told the story about listening to Cassie getting beaten by Diddy in the next room and then them coming out and Diddy saying, finish strong. I couldn't remember his name. It was, I think, Philip, Daniel, Phillip. But I really get it if this. If the jury, after seven weeks were just, like, overwhelmed with too much information. So, number one, I think that's the folly of the prosecution. They thought they were doing an amazing job, and they were, but it was just too amazing. It just comes down to that. You've got to know your audience. They're not in our profession. They're like mechanics and hairdressers and, you know, clerks and. And people who are like, whoa, whoa. How does a courtroom work? So that's what I think, number one. Number two, I still believe full throatedly that women have to prove 10 times more than men do when it comes to what it means to be sexually abused, manipulated, coerced, or, you know, be victims of fraud. I do. I think that we saw multiple examples with corroborating evidence and witness testimony that suggested there was force, fraud, and coercion in these sexual acts. Maybe not even plural. But I sure as hell saw one with Cassie and I sure as hell saw one with Jane. And this is the problem. The summation, you've got to drill down one thought. I know it was a four hour summation for the prosecutors and then a rebuttal, but you got to drill down one thought over and over. Like Johnny Cochran's jazz hands. If the glove don't fit, it don't acquit. You know, you got to acquit. That's what they remember. And I think if they had just said there was one act that we as prosecutors saw 100% was force, fraud and coercion in, in the sexual act, you know, with the escort and that's all you need. The law needs one act. I know they said it, I just don't think they drilled it right. And again, I think we're not there yet where women get the benefit of the doubt. Because I saw Cassie's testimony and I saw Jane's testimony and I saw multiple examples of theirs and others corroborating testimony to see that these women were browbeaten and they were coerced and they were scared and did things. And yes, they were into it at one point. Absolutely. But the law accommodates for that. The law accommodates for you being into it and then suddenly you're not. Right. Like you're allowed to say, yes, yes, I like this. And then suddenly, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is getting to be too forceful. I don't want to do this anymore. And if you continue, it is rape. That's what the law says. I just don't think the women at this point, overall sweeping comment, get the benefit of the doubt on that or the benefit of belief. I sure went out on a limb there. I hope I didn't make you all angry. But law's law, and that's the way I see it. And, and I, and I hope at some point more people will start seeing seeing it. I mean, we're always evolving, aren't we? There was a time when you legally couldn't rape your wife and there was a time when nobody ever thought a prostitute could be raped because that was her business. Anyway, we're not there anymore, thank God. But then again, maybe we are. Thank you everybody for listening. I so appreciate this community. And remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's dropped dead serious.