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Ashley Banfield (13:01)

Robinson bit over a week. I believe I can get close to it, but there's a squad car parked right by it. I think they already swept that spot, but I don't want to chance it. Robinson continues. I'm wishing I had circled back and grabbed it as soon as I got to my vehicle. That's interesting to me. So we went through the woods, dropped the gun, allegedly, and got to his vehicle. I'm assuming it's that gray Charger, right, that people were saying he arrived to campus in that day. So he got to his vehicle. I'm worried what my old man would do if I didn't bring back grandpa's rifle. I d e k I don't even know if it has serial number, but it wouldn't trace to me. I worry about prints. I had to leave it in a bush where I changed outfits. Okay, that's big to me, trying to figure out, how did this guy get away? But if these texts are true and if prosecutors are right, he's told his roommate, I went into those woods, I dropped that rifle, and I changed my clothes, and I came out of those woods and went to my car. So then he goes on to say, didn't have the ability or time to bring it with, meaning the rifle. That makes perfect sense, right? If he's wandering around after an execution, people are going to be looking for someone with a rifle. So, interestingly, I thought he broke that rifle down because that kind of a rifle can break down and put it in the backpack, meaning he would not be carrying a rifle. But maybe he didn't have the ability to break it down. Maybe he didn't know how to break it down. He does have some gun knowledge because his mom and dad took them to an uncle's army base. Military base. And there's lots of pictures on mom's Facebook of. Of them, you know, holding very, very dangerous weaponry and sort of on the ground, positioned at what looks like a. Some kind of a. I don't know, 50 cal gun of some kind. So there. It's not like they don't know guns. But he said, I didn't have the ability or time to bring it with me. I might have to abandon it and hope that they don't find prints. How the will I explain losing it to my old man? Only thing I left was the rifle wrapped in a towel. Remember how I was engraving bullets? The fucking messages are mostly a big meme. If I see quote, notices bulge u w u end quote on Fox News, I might have a stroke. All right, I'm gonna have to leave it. That really sucks. So there he is in these text messages saying the stuff that he was writing on the bullets was supposed to be funny. And oh, my God, what happens if it's on Fox News? Oh, boy. This is a meme. I think that, you know, that one that was notices bulge. He says uwu, but I think it's supposed to be O w o meaning eyes bulging and I think notices bulges from a gaming expression. All right, the text continues. Judging from today, I'd say grandpa's gun does just fine. I don't know, I think that was a two thousand dollar scope. And it's like he's got a sideways emoji that almost looks like, like evil winking. Like he doesn't think this is very serious at this point. Meanwhile, this roommate has not texted back. Like this is just a last thing the roommate said was, how long have you been planning this? And Robinson's been going on and on. I don't know how many texts it is, but the roommate's not getting back to him. And then Robinson says this, and this is so important. Delete this exchange. It's important because obstruction of justice is delete this exchange. Get rid of the evidence. That's obstruction of justice. And that's probably what they're going to back up their obstruction charge with. Robinson continues, again, my dad wants photos of the rifle. He says, grandpa wants to know who has what. The feds released a photo of the rifle and it is very unique. He's calling me right now, not answering. Sounds like, sounds like he realizes they might be getting wise at this point. Roommate's still not responding. Not at least that the evidence shows that they released today. Robinson then says, since Trump got into office, my dad has been pretty die hard maga. Then Robinson says again, I'm going to turn myself in willingly. One of my neighbors here is a deputy for the sheriff. I think there's quite a bit of time that's passed between these text messages. They've all been dumped out at once, but one big huge chunk in the, in the court document. So I can't tell you what's in between a lot of these messages and how many pauses there are, how long between texting to this roommate. But, but at this point I'm going to turn myself in willingly. One of my neighbors here is a deputy for the sheriff. That sounds like he's made it back home. This sounds like it's maybe 33 hours later. And Robinson says to his roommate, you are all I worry about, love. And now the roommate does respond and says, I'm much more worried about you. Robinson says, don't talk to the media. Please don't take any interviews or make any comments. If police ask you any question, ask for a lawyer and stay silent. Okay, that one's interesting. I think that's also the basis for another obstruction charge. But as I dig into those statements, don't talk to the media. There's nothing illegal or obstructionist about that. Don't take any interviews or make any comments. If he's meeting the media again, that's safe. If any police ask you questions, ask for a lawyer and stay silent. That may not be obstructionist because it's advice that you have the right to remain silent. You don't ever have to talk to anybody if you don't want to. But they may use that against him as obstructionist. Right. Because they've got a couple of those obstruction charges. So that long exchange began, according to the state, when the roommate was ordered by Tyler Robinson to look under his computer keyboard where the roommate found a note. And that note reads, I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and I'm going to take it. I mean, as evidence goes, doesn't get more slam dunk than this, right? Could a defense attorney try to suggest that this roommate is trying to frame Tyler Robinson pretty hard because he had his phone in his front pocket. The person who was photographed, the perpetrator who was photographed in the stairwells. Right. The one they were looking for, who the perpetrator was, he had his phone in his front pocket. And one of the photographs and videos, he stops at the top of one of the stairwells in the tunnels and uses the phone. So there's going to be evidence of that particular phone pinging and he's on video as it's pinging. Right. It's all timestamped. Right. So they're going to have Tyler Robinson in the location where the photograph shows him and the video shows him making these communications. And presumably each one of these texts will be located as well. Little hard to frame somebody else who's, you know, back home hours and hours away and that, frankly, I'm not exactly sure where his home is. I know where his parents home is, and that's hours and hours away. But where the roommate's home is, I don't know. And where his, you know, Tyler Robinson's home is. But pretty hard to mount that argument when there's just this digital footprint, right? Ask Brian Coburger. Okay. As for the rifle, prosecutors said they recovered DNA that is consistent with Tyler Robinson's trigger finger on the trigger. I think I told you a couple days ago, I don't know a marksman who doesn't say he didn't sweat. Even when you're just doing, you know, target practice, microscopically sweating, Right? And if you think about getting on a site, you know, your fingers on the trigger, your face is on the gun, your eyes right next to the site, maybe in your cheek, your other hand is on the gun. There's so much touch DNA and sweat and I mean, it's. There's just transferred DNA like crazy, right? So prosecutors say, yeah, they tested it and it's consistent with Tyler's. So court hearing today, the only thing that was really decided was to hold another court hearing. And that's, that's going to be September 29th. I thought this was so bizarre, but he didn't have a lawyer. It's been five days since he was arrested. He does not have a lawyer yet. There was a guy who was standing up there who said to the judge, and I'm going to just paraphrase, hi, I think, you know, I'm here, but you know, I'm not on the record as an attorney for him, but I'm here to tell you that we're working on finding a public defender for Luigi. And the judge said, yeah, he qualifies as indigent, so he qualifies for the public defender. So I think what you can imagine at this point is that at least in the beginning, Tyler is going to have a public defender. And it's more than likely a public defender is going to kick off Tyler's case.

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Ashley Banfield (23:23)

I don't think Tyler has a whole lot of money because he didn't even finish, you know, his first semester of university. I don't know what he was doing for work, but I don't know if his parents want to back him, they turned him in. I don't know if they're going to pay for his defense. He's an adult too, Right. So if they say not our problem, then Tyler is technically indigent. Right. So he would qualify for public defender. But it's just, I can't wait to see how this plays out. And by the way, lest you think that you, you don't get good representation if you're poor in this country and you need a public defender, that's horseshit. Some of the best lawyers in America are public defenders. Some of them are so practiced. They have huge caseloads and they are so practiced. You've heard, you know, Malcolm Gladwell say,000 to 10,000 hours. Well, these people have tens of thousands of hours in practice and they're really, really good at their job. So don't ever think that public defenders suck. They do not. Some do, but some private lawyers suck too. But who knows where the representation is going to go if it's going to be some big fancy lawyer that comes in and maybe does it pro bono. That'll make a lot of headlines. And somebody who wants to do that will make a lot of headlines. I don't think they're going to be able to save this guy. I will say this, I do feel like there will be some things that his defense team can do not, not to save him from punishment. He's going to be punished. This is overwhelming. This is just the tip of the iceberg. The evidence they gave you in the first hearing, like they don't have to give you much, just this is enough. He's not going to escape life, no parole, that's for sure. I don't know if he'll escape death penalty, but there are ways for them to get him there. Number one, plea bargain you shot with Coburger. Number two, mitigation according to his mental state. Maybe he was being groomed by a cult. Maybe a cult of like extreme leftists. Whatever it was, there may be something to his mental health. Hell, he's in there wearing a suicide vest, right? Clearly his mental health is in the toilet. He told his parents he wanted to kill himself. He, he's under suicide watch in the prison here or the jail here. So maybe a defense attorney will be able to make something of that of, of mitigating this potentially first time offender who did a terrible, terrible, horrible thing and needs to be punished for it. But maybe not the ultimate punishment. I don't know if that's going to fly I am very worried about picking a jury in this case. I am very worried about picking a jury in many more cases to come. Because we seem to think in our anger that we have the right to take the law into our own hands and kill the people we don't agree with. Happened with Luigi. Allegedly. Happening with Tyler. Allegedly. Who's the next one? Yeah. I am so tired of seeing people who say, I don't like Trump. I'm gonna go shoot him in Butler, Pennsylvania. I don't like those Minnesota Democrats. I'm gonna go shoot that speaker and her husband at their home, killing them both. The list goes on and on. But this seems to be where we're going, where Americans actually stand up and say, yeah, but murder's bad. Yeah, but. But that guy's really bad. No, I will say it again. There are two things that are irrefutable. Puppies are cute, Atlas included. Murder is bad. There is no but that you can add to the end of the sentence. Murder is bad. Sadly, I think too many people are doing this. So I had opportunity to speak with somebody I really like a lot. Judge Tarleka Nunes Navarro is a former judge. She's a former prosecutor, former defense attorney, and currently one smart cookie. She's the Dean of the St. Thomas University College of Law. And I had this interview with her on my. On my show on News Nation. Banfield Shout out. Banfield News Nation, 10:00pm Eastern. Please watch. And we just had a really good conversation about all the aspects of this, this first appearance by Tyler Robinson and everything that's about to happen. So here's our conversation.

Ashley Banfield Interviewer (27:41)

I'm joined now by a friend of the show and one of the sharpest legal minds in the business. Judge Tarleka Nunes Navarro is a former judge, former prosecutor, and currently the Dean of the St. Thomas University College of Law. Judge, it's good to have you here on a day like this. How damning are those texts, the ones that I just read out? Because that's all I have right now.

Judge Tarleka Nunes Navarro (28:00)

Well, good evening, Ashley. This is a tragic, tragic case. My condolences to Erica and the children and also to the family of the defendant. This is horrible for everyone. How damning are these text messages? Honestly, as a former defense attorney, I cringe hearing them. I just see element after element after element witness, you know, obstruction of justice. We have witness tampering. We have lack of remorse. Covering up the. Picking up the rifle, just going on and on about his grandpa's rifle. That's what he's worried about. I mean, it's damning after damning after damning. It shows a direct admission of guilt and certainly will be used in the death penalty sentencing as aggravators for lack.

Ashley Banfield Interviewer (28:58)

Of a more so then let's talk about the other side because I see just a big old mountain of evidence against this guy. The premeditation, the callousness, the carelessness. I mean, careless doesn't count when they're looking at aggravators and mitigators. But look at him here in the suicide vest. There was reporting as well that his parents had to talk him out of taking his life before going in to report himself to the sheriff. How much of that will his defense side be able to work into his case saying, look, he's 22 years old, he got radicalized by his feet. He came from a good family. They were Trump loving, Trump supporting. He was not this leftist that everybody makes him out to be. He somehow was taken that way by the feet. Will they be able to do something like that to establish some kind of diminished capacity to mitigate down from death?

Judge Tarleka Nunes Navarro (29:47)

That's going to be an uphill battle for them. When we look at a death penalty case, we look at aggravators and mitigators. So we're talking about the mitigation here. And you know, you have a 22 year old, yes, that's mitigation. But you have a 22 year old who knows what he did. He knows that it was a crime. He's intentionally trying to cover it up. He had premeditation. This was not an accident. So an insanity defense is not going to work because an insanity defense requires you to not understand right or wrong. So that's going to be an uphill battle on the mitigation side.

Ashley Banfield Interviewer (30:23)

Yeah, for sure. Insanity is off the table. There is no shot there. And there's the picture in the middle of us to prove that he was running for cover, which is the mere definition of knowing something's wrong when you're running away to try to secret yourself and secret the gun away. Yeah, you know right from wrong, insanity's off the table. But what about those other gradations? State to state, they call it different things, but it's effectively the guy was somewhat mentally ill and it should factor in to death penalty or no death penalty. Again, it's all in the mitigation because I think this guy is never going to skate from a guilty verdict here. I really don't. Not with the evidence we've learned so far. And that's only the tip of the iceberg what about that diminishing aspect? And again, it's different in every state. I don't know what it is in Utah, but diminished capacity is often what we hear.

Judge Tarleka Nunes Navarro (31:12)

Yeah, I mean, we're going to hear about it. That's all the defense really has. As a prior defense attorney, you know, we can't pick our facts. So they have really nothing else to utilize in the mitigation. This is a damning case. There's a ton of evidence, and the mitigation's gonna be slim. And they have to use the fact that, you know, he's. He's. He is very careless, but at the same time, he was incredibly premeditated. The intent was there, the motive was there, and it's going to be an uphill battle on diminished capacity, I have to tell you.

Ashley Banfield Interviewer (31:48)

Let me ask you something, Judge. Are they going to more than likely have his own family members testify against him? Because that would be one of the most. As a mom, that would be the most painful thing to see, bringing family members in to point the finger.

Judge Tarleka Nunes Navarro (32:03)

Like I said, this is a sad case for both families, all families involved. I imagine that the family will be subpoenaed to testify, and they will have to come in. They may be hostile, but it doesn't appear so. The parents convinced him to turn himself in, and they did the right thing here. And I think they will be called as witnesses and have to testify against their son.

Ashley Banfield Interviewer (32:25)

Yes, it's easy for us to say they did the right thing, but as a mother, you sort of put yourself in those shoes and think, could I turn my son over to the state for an execution?

Ashley Banfield (32:34)

It's hard.

Ashley Banfield Interviewer (32:34)

And I don't know where our viewers are. We're all over the map in our politics, in this little crime community that we have on this program. And it doesn't matter what your politics are. I feel for Bryan Kohberger's family. They weren't the killers. I feel for this guy's family. I feel for Luigi Mangione's family that the families of, you know, of people who either did or are alleged to have done terrible things, didn't do those things. And yet they find themselves in the worst predicament and the most painful, painful, you know, situation. So in that respect, that's why I said it would be painful to see a mother or a father having to come into court and point at their son, no matter what, you know, he's accused of. Last quick question. A lot of people are saying the roommate has exposure. And the fact is, is that that this guy texted to his roommate. Remember when I was engraving the bullets? Can you set the record straight on what your duty to respond is? As a basic civilian, not a public figure, not a teacher, not a government employee, just a roommate. Do you have any duty to call police if you see someone engraving bullets?

Judge Tarleka Nunes Navarro (33:41)

Absolutely. You have a duty. Hear something, say something, see something, say something. As soon as those text messages came through, he had a duty to call the police department. That was made very clear by the governor of that state and the police and the investigators. And, you know, I think he did the right thing. From what I can tell. I think he did notify the police, he handed over his text messages. He did not conceal them. And so I do not believe he will be charged. I believe he fully cooperated.

Ashley Banfield Interviewer (34:11)

Yeah, that's what I mean. I mean, morally, yes, of course. We all have a duty. Legally, I don't think you can be charged unless you're, again, a public official. You have a duty to respond to something like that. That looks like imminent danger is ahead of you. But for that roommate, the texts look to me like the roommate was pretty damn shocked. Is this really you? Question mark, question mark, question mark. I mean, I think that's pretty strong evidence. Judge, it's really good to have you. I'm so sad about where we are as a nation and how some people celebrated this death and how others celebrated the death of Brian Thompson, the United Healthcare worker. Like, I'm so tired of vigilante justice and those who support it because there's no end to it. Once you jump in that bin, anybody's game, you know, if your message isn't palatable, well, then the next guy apparently is okay to perform the judge, jury, executioner duties. And that's really a sad state.

Ashley Banfield (35:03)

I appreciate you being here.

Judge Tarleka Nunes Navarro (35:05)

Yes, it's a sad day in America. Ashley. Thank you for having me.

Ashley Banfield (35:10)

Hi, everybody. Thank you so much for hanging with me on this podcast. I. I have said many times I don't want to get into politics. And ever, when I do true crime, sometimes these true crimes just land in the political bin, and there's no way to avoid it. And I am particularly concerned not with whether you support Luigi or Tyler or whether you decry Luigi and Tyler and people who allegedly commit these horrible crimes for their causes. That's not my point here. My point is to look at the. The criminal procedure. Right? We have a system of laws in this country. Thank you, Jesus. Because that. That makes this country great. Believe me. When I was a war correspondent, I went to plenty of countries where the law doesn't operate quite like this. Think hoods and gulags and you never see your loved one again when the Gustavo comes to the door and takes them. That's the kind of thing I've seen firsthand in countries that aren't like ours. And so I don't want to see us degenerate to that kind of horseshit. Don't take the law into your own hands. I don't care if you don't like something or if you believe in your cause. We have a nation of laws and you get what's coming to you. And I don't care if Tyler Robinson is mentally ill. I think anybody, if he's did this. Anybody who executes a person in cold blood is mentally ill in some way. I don't know if that's going to affect his. His adjudication of this, this case. I don't know how they're going to find a jury that doesn't have some dog in this fight. Politically, you know, everybody's in a camp. But folks, if there's one thing I do know, and I say this all the time, is that the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious. Sam.