Eerie Apple Watch Location Raises New Questions in Nancy Guthrie Kidnapping Mystery

Summary

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Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield

Episode: Eerie Apple Watch Location Raises New Questions in Nancy Guthrie Kidnapping Mystery
Date: June 30, 2026

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Main Theme & Purpose

Ashleigh Banfield takes a deep dive into new developments surrounding the kidnapping of Nancy Guthrie, focusing on critical clues — especially the strange location of Guthrie’s Apple Watch — and the ongoing confusion about the authenticity and content of ransom notes. The episode features extensive analysis and a featured interview with investigative reporter Brianna Whitney, now of Crime Junkie, who has firsthand knowledge of the notes and the early days of the case.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Apple Watch Clue

• Significance:
  • Recent reporting by CBS revealed that the first ransom note included an unusually specific detail: Nancy Guthrie’s Apple Watch (with a white band) was found on the floor of her bedroom.
  • Banfield and Whitney agree that this detail is highly significant, as few people, especially an 84-year-old, would charge a watch on the floor. This has led both to speculate about a possible struggle and increased the credibility of the ransom notes.
  • Quote:
    “That detail is just too weird to make up or to just sort of cross your fingers and say, I’m going to throw out a crazy idea. Let’s just say the apple watch is on the floor and hope it was. That would be impossible.” — Ashleigh Banfield [25:12]

2. The Ransom Notes: Timing, Content, and Language

• Details:

  • The first note was sent nearly two days after Guthrie disappeared, addressed to her daughter Savannah, demanding $4 million, later increasing to $6 million after a missed deadline. It included the Apple Watch clue.
  • The second note, received by a Tucson TV station, claimed that Guthrie had died due to an underestimation of her health and apologized, stating she was "buried with nature". No offer to return the body was made.
  • Both notes used the same bitcoin address, suggesting a connection; both are believed genuine by authorities and Savannah.

• Language Analysis:

  • The language in the second note ("perished," "buried with nature," "we are truly sorry") is described as unusual and possibly written by a non-native English speaker.
  • Quote:
    “To me, these are written by somebody who’s either foreign or doesn’t have great English. They’re bizarre. ... Buried in nature. Buried with nature. That’s another odd thing to say.” — Brianna Whitney [27:51]

• Debunked Reports:

  • Whitney and Banfield clarify that contrary to some media reports, the second note did not offer to return Guthrie’s body for ransom.

3. Investigative Confusion & Law Enforcement Handling

• Missteps:

  • Banfield criticizes local law enforcement’s early tunnel vision on family members and mistakes in scene security.
  • Only one known arrest for a fake ransom note sender; Sheriff Nanos claimed there were more, which both Banfield and Whitney could not corroborate.
  • Lack of official updates has allowed misinformation and opportunistic frauds to proliferate.

• Quote:
  “For an investigation to this magnitude, it is stunning that we have not had an official press conference since the first week of February.” — Brianna Whitney [37:32]

4. The Bitcoin Scam and 'Jack Weed'

• TMZ and the ‘third party’:
  • After the initial (believed legitimate) ransom notes, Harvey Levin at TMZ began receiving emails from someone claiming to know who was responsible, offering info (and even alleged video evidence) in exchange for one bitcoin (~$70–80k).
  • This person became increasingly aggressive, and some FBI sources suggest the emails might be written by a woman.
  • The FBI advised TMZ to "stand down" on documentary plans, stating they are making progress in identifying this individual.
  • Both hosts are skeptical of these claims, suspecting opportunistic fraud.
  • Quote:
    “It’s all very sus. I’m not going to lie. And Harvey feels the same way. ... The FBI is saying to Harvey, stand down. Don’t do the documentary.” — Ashleigh Banfield [11:19]

5. Media Experience & Pressure in the Case

• Whitney on the Early Days:

  • The first weeks were chaotic, with intense public interest and internal struggles about what to report vs. what to hold back to protect the investigation.
  • Emotional and logistical stress was significant, especially given Savannah Guthrie’s own career as a journalist.
  • Quote:
    “I often say that February felt like a bit of a fever dream, being boots on the ground for this investigation.” — Brianna Whitney [21:49]

• On the Challenge of Silence:

  • The media's attempts to responsibly report amid rampant speculation and the authorities' silence have contributed to ongoing public confusion.

6. Theories & Unanswered Questions

• Number of Perpetrators:

  • Whitney strongly suspects at least two or more people were involved — distinguishing the note writer from the physical abductor (“porch guy”).
  • Multiple references to “we” in the notes back up this theory.

• Sophistication (or Lack Thereof):

  • Both Banfield and Whitney comment on how sloppily the crime was initially executed, yet acknowledge that the perpetrators have thus far escaped arrest and managed to keep Guthrie’s whereabouts unknown.
  • Notable exchange:
    “This is either the luckiest thug in the world or this thug and whoever this thug is working with... their days are probably numbered.” — Ashleigh Banfield [34:27]

7. Geographic Theories & Ongoing Leads

• “Buried with nature” remains ambiguous. Could refer to the Arizona desert, forests, or even northern Mexico (as some volunteer searchers have investigated based on tips).
• Mexican group Buscando Corazonas Nogales got a tip suggesting Guthrie might be buried near the Mariposa area (“over a stream”), but nothing has been found.

8. The Ransom Protocol – What Did the Notes Actually Promise?

• The first note outlined financial demands and claimed Guthrie would be returned to Tucson upon payment, but did not include specific handover details.
• Quote:
  “It just said she would be dropped off at a safe location or some type of location in the Tucson area. ... But it did not say, like, she'll be wearing this. ... It was definitely like, here's the plan on... when you pay this, here's what we will do to return her to Tucson.” — Brianna Whitney [51:38]

9. Emotional Toll & Ongoing Uncertainty

• Both hosts express deep empathy for Savannah Guthrie and her family.
• The episode ends on the sober, unresolved reality that — despite technology, media scrutiny, and official efforts — the crime remains unsolved after 149 days.
• Quote:
  “It is shocking to me that we're at the point that we are. ... This was back to 1995, and it worked.” — Brianna Whitney [57:52]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the specificity of the Apple Watch clue:
  "To me, that’s a game-changer." — Ashleigh Banfield [25:12]

• On the ransom note language:
  “Perished. Weird wording. She was buried with nature. Also weird wording. ... It sounds like it's a translation. Someone who doesn't speak English as a first language.” — Ashleigh Banfield [04:20]

• On lack of official communication:
  “I'm shocked that we didn't have more cameras that picked up something. I'm shocked we don't have more DNA… It is shocking to me that we're at the point that we are.” — Brianna Whitney [57:52]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:00] Episode start and summary of new clues in ransom notes
• [03:00–07:35] Detailed discussion of ransom notes and Apple Watch clue
• [15:25–19:21] Local law enforcement’s missteps and investigation criticisms
• [19:21–31:54] Interview with Brianna Whitney (initial experiences, reporting challenges)
• [25:08–26:06] Discussion of the Apple Watch detail as a pivotal clue
• [27:51] Language analysis of ransom notes; “buried with nature” and “perished”
• [31:54–34:27] Theories on the number of perpetrators and the credibility of the notes
• [36:32–38:42] Frustration about lack of official press conferences and communication
• [39:29] Critique of Sheriff Nanos and scene handling in the investigation
• [44:45] Clarification that no ransom was sought for the body in the second note
• [50:47–51:38] Terms of the exchange promised in the first ransom note
• [55:46–57:16] Discussion of likely outcome and possibility of never finding out the full “why”
• [57:52] Closing thoughts: The ongoing mystery and hope for resolution

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Overall Tone

Ashleigh Banfield’s trademark irreverence is tempered by empathy and frustration at authorities’ failings, confusion around the notes, and the ongoing suffering of the Guthrie family. Both she and Whitney balance measured skepticism with journalistic rigor, persistent questioning, and advocacy for transparency. The atmosphere is tense, bewildered, and driven by a continuing search for the truth.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive review of a baffling, high-profile kidnapping that remains unsolved, focusing on a small but crucial detail — the Apple Watch — and the many unanswered questions around the ransom communications, investigative missteps, and human tragedy at the core of the case. For listeners new to the Nancy Guthrie story, it’s a clear, methodical, and emotionally charged briefing on what’s known, what’s still unclear, and why this case remains deeply confounding.

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Transcript

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[Ashley Banfield]

Foreign. Hey everyone. I'm Ashley Banfield and this is drop dead serious. I've got some news on the Nancy Guthrie investigation. I keep having to do the math here just because it's so unbelievable. Day 149 Since Nancy Guthrie vanished. And I'm recording this on Monday, June 29th. So a couple of things that have dripped and drabbed out, but I think they're really big. And that is that. It's becoming evident now because CBS has released information about the first ransom note. And it's becoming evident now, according to cbs, that that first ransom note included a detail. You've heard this before about Nancy Guthrie's apple watch. But what you may not have heard before was what the detail details actually were about the watch. We all assumed. Yeah, okay. Of course she's got an apple watch. We all have apple watches. Yeah, sure. It was in her bed. No, it's a lot more specific than that. It's in fact an apple watch with a white band that was on her floor. On the floor of her bedroom. That is very specific, very significant. First of all, I'm trying to wrap my head around why an apple watch would be on the floor. I don't think there's a whole bunch of us among us right now who would charge our apple watches on the floor of our bedroom, let alone. Alone an 84 year old woman who you would think would have it on her nightstand. Did it get knocked onto the floor? Was there a struggle that knocked the watch onto the floor? And that's what the kidnappers wrote. And that may be why the FBI and the Guthrie family are taking the first two ransom notes. Seriously. The first two. Of course, if you get confused, you're forgiven. There's a lot. The first two notes that came in, first one came to TMZ and two local Tucson TV stations. The second note came into one of those two Tucson TV stations and the second one was the one saying, sorry, something went sideways. We underestimated Nancy Guthrie's health and she died. And for that we are sorry. And she's buried with nature. So it's important now to look back at the details on that first note. When they said, we have your mother, Savannah, we have your mother for $4 million, we'll give her back if you miss a deadline. We go to a second deadline and we up the price to 6 million. And the wording is quite specific. The person who has the most specific wording, Brianna Whitney, who is a reporter for Crime Junkie, the podcast she used to work for Arizona Family, owns two TV stations in Tucson. So she is directly connected. She also broke a lot of news on the Nancy Guthrie story. She is going to join me shortly to talk about all of the things that she knows she has seen. The wording of this second ransom note, the one that had the apology. And lest you wonder, here is what Brianna has actually reported about the wording she said. The note said, quote, we never intended to, to hurt her in all of this. Meaning they never intended to hurt Nancy Guthrie. Well, what did they expect was going to happen if you take a 84 year old woman out of her bed in the middle of the night, breaking into her home dressed like that, what do you expect? In any case, Brianna Whitney says this note went on to say, we never intended to hurt her in all of this. She perished shortly after she was taken. Perished. Weird wording. She was buried with nature. Also weird wording. I have said multiple times. I think this sounds like it's a translation. Someone who doesn't speak English as a first language. It went on to say, according to Brianna, nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome. And the last thing that Brianna said the wording of the second ransom note had in it was we are truly sorry. Brianna's an amazing reporting. She was out front and ahead all the way through those first unbelievable two months at the Nancy Guthrie investigation. Been a couple of other things that have broken as well here on day 149. I want to catch up to speed on some of them. It should be noted that CBS has done some really good reporting on this story and just in the last couple of days broke the story of how the ransom note actually started off, how it was written and right off the top, the chilling words. Hello, Savannah, we have your mother, Nancy. I mean, I just was stopped cold when I Read that. I assumed maybe the note said something like that, but then seeing it in writing, and imagine if you are Savannah and imagine if you are the Guthrie family reading that, it's also really surprising to me that it's taken this many weeks, sorry, months. We're at five months. In order for us to learn that the notes and the information and the details all starting to sort of eek out now. And some other details as well. I feel like I almost missed this detail, and it's worth repeating because Howard Bloom from Airmail, he's got a publication called Airmail. He also reported something last week that was pretty interesting about the first ransom letter that was sent to the TV stations and to tmz. And Howard Bloom says that that letter, that email, that correspondence, it actually detailed the terms for an exchange. So I don't know if that just means said the amount of money or actually laid out the logistics of how this is going to go down, because if that's the case, we have not heard this, like, you bring, you know, X amount of money or put this into the bitcoin and then come with one unmarked car to X location, and. And we'll make the exc. I don't know if that's what he meant by the terms of the exchange or if he just meant how much money, you know, if that's what the. The kidnappers actually just wrote was just how much money it was going to cost without the detail of what would come next, how they would return Nancy Guthrie to the family. But it. Upon reading it a second time, I even questioned it myself, wondering, hold it. Did they actually list out how to get Nancy back? I feel like.

[Brianna Whitney]

No.

[Ashley Banfield]

I feel like that would have come out by now or the FBI or the Guthrie family would have acted faster. I mean, that's very specific, right? In any case, I just thought it was worth noting again. And it just, again was followed up by. By, she is safe but scared. Well, that would change in a couple of days because just a few days later, a second ransom note from the same sender with the same bitcoin wallet address. So, you know, it's the same people. How else is anyone going to know the bitcoin address those folks listed? The. I'm sorry, you know, missive. News Nation's also reporting something, and I'm. I'm curious and suspect, and I'm not sure if it's a mistake or just a sort of a syntax error, but I'll tell you what they've said. They're quoting the Howard Blum air mail report. Okay, so News Nation is quoting Howard Blum's airmail report, and they're saying that according to the airmail report, the February 6th note, that's the second one, included the suggestion that her body could be returned for ransom. I got to be honest with you. All I have heard all along from every source is that there was no offer of ransom to give the body back to the Guthrie. It's just an apology, sorry things went sideways, and she's buried with nature, but no offer to give money, you know, in exchange for Nancy's body. And I'm just wondering if this is like a misprint or something, but it's definitely something I'm going to try to clear up at some point. Then other really big news today, Harvey Levin at TMZ has been receiving a lot of the communications, right. He received the very first ransom note that the FBI says is real, apparently, according to the FBI sources who have spoken to multiple media outlets. And then another round of ransom notes came to tmz. This one's harder to believe, and it's weird. It's somebody who says that they're not involved with this. They didn't do it. They didn't take Nancy. They weren't responsible, but they know who did. And they're willing to cough up the details of who did this for the price of one bitcoin, somewhere around, depending on the day, 70, $80,000. And these people have reached out to Harvey and TMZ multiple times, angry that they're being ignored, angry that no one's paying. And the last time, just last week, they reached out again, saying, we have video of the players, of the multiple people involved, and the video is of the main guy and Nancy, likely on the last day she was alive. So very, very specific. And whoever this Jack Weed is has said that it's on a phone and it's in a secure location. And for the price of the bitcoin, you'll get the location and the password to open the phone. It's all very sus. I'm not going to lie. And Harvey feels the same way. He even said, okay, fella, first of all, back when, you know, the notes just got a little testy, he said, look, just claim the million dollar reward and give that info up. And that Jack Weed said, well, I'm afraid of law enforcement. So Harvey playing chess, not checkers, said, fine, we'll get the million dollars for you. We'll pay you the million dollars. You tell the FBI, you tell us, we'll pass it to the FBI like, you know, no harm, no foul. And the guy went silent. So. But then he came back and he was mad. And now he's saying he's got video or she. Some are suggesting in the FBI, according to sources, that the tone sounds like a woman writing these notes to Harvey. I can't weigh in either way. However, I will say this. Harvey has gotten another. Another piece of information on all of this. Harvey suggested to the FBI, I'll do a documentary on this and I will pay that bitcoin to get this information. But I'm not going to do it unless I got your blessing, right? I don't want to mess with this investigation in any way. So he checked with his FBI, because the FBI is working with tmz, right? TMZ got the original note. The FBI is working with dmz. So Harvey spoke with the FBI contacts that they have and said, I'd like to do this documentary, pay the bitcoin, and call this guy out, because what's the worst thing? We'll be out the money, but we might get the information. So the newest reporting from Harvey, and this is fascinating, is that the FBI is not ghosting Harvey anymore. The FBI is responding. And interestingly, the FBI is saying to Harvey, stand down. Don't do the documentary. And then this. And I'm going to read specifically from Harvey. He gave an interview to cbs and this is what he said. I was. This is Harvey. I was told that they feel like they're making progress in terms of identifying this person, and they think they can do that. I mean, stand down why?

[Shannon Maldonado]

Right?

[Ashley Banfield]

So we have Harvey saying the FBI's told him, I think we're making progress in terms of identifying this person. And I'm taking that to mean Jack Weed, who's pestering Harvey, saying, I've got the goods, I've got the info. I'll serve these kidnappers up on a silver platter. I'm assuming that that's what the FBI is telling Harvey, that they're making progress in terms of identifying this person.

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[Ashley Banfield]

But then Maureen o', Connell, who is a former FBI agent and was speaking with another former FBI agent, said that that source told her that they're close to finding porch guy. So two different reports, both trying to get close to perpetrators in the saga of Nancy Guthrie. One clearly far more serious than the other. But the other one deserves to be in jail as well. Sheriff Nanos. Okay, I just have to report it because he's talking, and honest to God, he did an interview on Friday with a local radio outlet, KVOI am, and he said he thinks that the two first notes are legitimate. We've heard that from Savannah Guthrie. We've heard from FBI contacts. They believe that the first two notes are genuine. But Sheriff Nanos says the FBI is handling the investigation. Quote, this is Nanos on kvoi. Those two, meaning those two notes that someone believes may or may not have some legitimacy to them, and the FBI is working on that. I can't tell you much more than that because it would be inappropriate as it's ongoing. But as to the TMZ guy, whoever the jackweed is who keeps coming at, you know, Harvey, saying, I have info. I got info. I'll. I'll sell these guys down the river for a bitcoin. This is what Sheriff Nano said about that, and this is where I'm like, are you kidding me? He said, I think the FBI has done a number of arrests for false or fake ransom notes. Huh? What? I've heard of one, the guy in California, the one who went straight to the Guthrie family, texting them. I haven't heard of anybody else being arrested for fake ransom notes. So if Sheriff Nanos has information that no one else does, I'd be shocked. Right? But he says, I think the FBI has done a number of arrests for false or fake ransom notes. It's a shame that that happens, But I think we're looking at another one of those today. I think he's referring to Jack weed, right? The one who says, give me a bitcoin, I'll sell these guys down the river. It's a shame that these type. Types of events occur. People have great interest. That's good because it helps us. But then it really gets. But then it gets really abused. People who call in fake ransom notes, people who claim, for the sake of media and the family, they get out and disturb, in this case, an entire neighborhood. I don't know what he's saying, but that's. That's sheriff nanows, so I can't tell you that he has special information that multiple people have been arrested for fake ransom notes. We just know of one, and that was very, very early. I mean, like in the first two weeks. The guy in California who was arrested for two different communications to the Guthrie family demanding money. And they caught him very quickly. And I don't think he's. I don't even know if he has a court date yet, but that's going to be fun. So I wanted to talk to Brianna Whitney because this girl, great reporter and you know who noticed crime junkie, they noticed the podcast. Crime junkie snapped her up from Arizona family where she was working in Arizona and arizona families, that organization that owns the television stations in Tucson and around the state of Arizona. She was busting news headlines constantly during the early offings of the Nancy Guthrie investigation. Clearly why she caught the eye of crime junkie and was hired. And I've been knocking on her door for a while wanting to interview her because she's seen the note. She's got direct reporting. She's been on the inside. And you know what? That is a story in itself is how all of this felt when everything was quiet and nobody was talking. So here's my conversation with Brianna. Brianna, it's so good to have you. I have been dying to talk to you. This has been 149 days coming.

[Brianna Whitney]

Gosh, I know. It's been a long time coming. So I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, listen, you're a hell of a reporter, kiddo. Honestly, I quoted you non stop through so much of my coverage because you were finding out so much information. And there you came again. Just last week, you had the actual wording of the second note that had the apology. How did you get that?

[Brianna Whitney]

Yeah, so in my former role with my reporting in Arizona, The Tucson station and then my Phoenix station worked hand in hand together, and those were where the notes were sent to the Tucson station. And so we were made aware of what they said throughout the investigation. And obviously we weren't reporting that information. We just wanted to protect the investigation as much as possible. Obviously, from then to now, we didn't know how this was going to turn out or even really like the lack there of being a whole lot more that's come. But we had them. We studied the language in them. I've been made aware of both of the verbiage language used in both the notes since they came in that first week. So we're talking that first week in February, and I've just had that information with me, and I honestly hemmed and hawed on when to share more about it. And I'm not sure if there's, like, any sort of playbook to follow at all in this case. Like, this is the craziest case in terms of how this has all gone. I think you've been right in it with me. So you're aware of just unprecedented in so many different ways. But once I saw that there were media outlets that were coming out with sources saying some of these details and they were correct, I felt like at that point in talking to my company now, we decided, like, I know what these say. I've known what they've said for months, and I want to make sure that I'm doing responsible reporting. And it felt like this is the time to make sure that accurate information is going out there. Like, this is what they say. This is the factual information. Yes, these sources, many of them were correct that we're talking to other media outlets. But let's just set the record straight with what's in it. And that's why I decided to report that.

[Ashley Banfield]

How was it among you and all your colleagues? Because again, it's really hard to be in a story and report a story. What was it like for all of you guys in those early days when you had this stuff and you weren't really allowed to tell the. Tell the whole story?

[Brianna Whitney]

I often say that February felt like a bit of a fever dream, being boots on the ground for this investigation. For one thing, it was like, in that first week, it felt like everything was coming out in rapid time. Right. We learned she was missing. Then there was a press conference, Then we had the porch guy abduction video. And we truly thought in that moment, oh, they're gonna get this guy really quickly. I mean, that video's super clear. It was so brazen. Surely somebody recognizes this person. And then we thought, okay, DNA evidence would be in there. And so when the notes were coming in, though, it was really like a group discussion of, how are we gonna best handle this? And I think it helped me with context, at least, knowing what they said, to just be aware of it. I think at the end of the day, we still don't know if those are legit notes. Yes, we know. Savannah says she believes that they are real, and we know the FBI is investigating them. But somewhat a grain of salt, like these could be not legit. So you have the information. You're protecting the investigation. Trying to do the best I could with everything and. And dealing with a public that demanded any little detail. 24 7. I've never seen anything like that. It was. It was hard. It was extremely challenging. It was emotionally taxing. Every time, though, that I would get to a point where I was like, oh, my gosh, like, this is overwhelming. And we're working a bajillion hours a day, driving from Tucson to Phoenix back and forth. Every single day. I would stop and think, put yourself in Savannah Guthrie's shoes, because, oh, my God, I feel so much for her. What they're going through, this being so public and the fact that she is one of us. She's a journalist. She reports on these things, I cannot imagine. And that kind of helped keep. Keep me afloat during those times.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, and you're right. I mean, in the work that we do, the reason that we do what we do is because there are savannas in every one of these stories. You know, these are people who are suffering. They're real. These stories are horrible. They may be fascinating, and they may be mystifying, and they may be puzzles to solve, but at the same time, there's someone at home desperate for an answer or for a resolution for justice. And I won't even say closure, because they never get that. But. But you're right. And Savannah even said the other day on the Today show that they're still in agony, you know, and Here we are 149 days to the. To the story about the. The veracity of the notes. You know, note number one comes in to three outlets. Tmz, kgun, kgun, and also kold. And note number two just comes into kold, but they have the same bitcoin address. So everybody talks about them as this, the clump of two that are more than likely the legitimate. Savannah says she feels they're legitimate. FBI seems to indicate to her and sources that they're legitimate. But then CBS came out with this, just this week or last week, a detail about the apple watch with a white band that was on the floor of her bedroom. The floor. Had you ever heard anything about the apple watch being on the floor?

[Brianna Whitney]

Yes, that is in the first ransom note.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, to me, that's a game changer. I, and I only say that because an 84 year old woman doesn't charge her apple watch on the floor. She would put it on her nightstand and it would probably end up on the floor. After a struggle of some kind, you get caught in the wire and it comes to flying off. And so that detail is just too weird to make up or to just sort of cross your fingers and say, I'm going to throw out a crazy idea. Let's just say the apple watch is on the floor and hope it was. That would be impossible. So for that reason, it almost feels like the one deep porch light, you could see that that was broken.

[Brianna Whitney]

Sure, easily.

[Ashley Banfield]

I even reported on that on day one. And so that part, I wasn't wowed by that. That was something any Sherlock could have, could have gotten.

[Brianna Whitney]

Yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

But that watch, do you think there was anything else in any of the note that that was as significant as that detail?

[Brianna Whitney]

Not on, not in the first note, no. I think the first. That obviously that is what investigators looked at and thought, and they said this from day one, you know, in the first notes, that there was potentially something that only the abductor or abductors would know. Right. I mean, we, we knew that. So in terms of are these legit or credible? Yeah, that detail in the first one seems to be extra important. I think the details in the second note are super, super telling. Maybe. I mean, that one might. The apple watch detail might solidify the credibility of the notes themselves if the FBI believes that these are legit. The second note, though, to me signifies where the entire plan, if this is them, completely fell apart. And that was the end of anything that we were going to get from those people.

[Ashley Banfield]

The wording. I read it before, but I'll read it again, because every time I read it, I still get chills. And this is from you. This is your reporting. Great job. You said that the note February 6 said, quote, we never intended to hurt her in all of this. She perished shortly after she was taken. She was buried with nature. Nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome, and we are truly sorry. So let's go over a little bit of this. We never intended to hurt her in all of this. I just, I just wanted. There's so much I want to do to someone who says something like that. It's called felony murder for a reason. If you're committing a felony and somebody dies, it is your fault. Do not apologize. Just go straight to prison and don't collect your $200. So goodbye to that number two. She perished shortly after she was taken. Who uses the word perished?

[Brianna Whitney]

So I. To me, these are written by somebody who's either foreign or, or doesn't have great English. They're. They're bizarre. Perished. Another part that we didn't intend to hurt her. There was actually like two parts to that sentence that repeated itself. It basically said we never intended to hurt her. That was not our intention. That was in one sentence. So that's also weird. Yeah. Buried in nature. Buried with nature. That's another odd thing to say. Right? It's just all a little bit off to where you look at that and think this is an odd. No. And I've seen some people surmise that maybe I wrote that maybe somebody looked up chat GPT. But it's even more odd than that. It's almost like somebody who was trying to put together as best they could what they thought would. Would be the best option there. But the one thing that I absolutely am 1000% certain of is that it said we are truly sorry. And I have seen conflicting reports from all over the Internet and all over different outlets. I am sure that there was an apology. And my former station is reporting the same thing too because they have the note. So that part, yeah, is certain.

[Ashley Banfield]

Oh, I believe you because you saw it. I always go to the first person for the report and you're the one who saw it. Everybody else is quoting sources say, but you're the source. You're the one who actually saw it. So I believe what you're saying. The other thing is that the. Sorry. Listen, in the business of kidnapping, and I've covered lots of them, it's real. They're heartless, horrifying criminals. They mean business. They're all about the money. They don't apologize. That's not in their nature. This second note would have been a waste of time and just more exposure to potentially being caught. So what do you make of this I'm sorry business?

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[Brianna Whitney]

So I think that this was obviously some sort of financial plan, right? And I also think that given and I know there's been reports on this and this is true, can confirm this. That first note was addressed to Savannah. So that leads me to believe Nancy was a target of some sort. And likely they put two and two together because of Savannah. I think that there are probably multiple people involved in this. And I personally believe that whoever is writing those notes, if they are legit, is a different person than the person who is porch guy. I don't think that those two are the same. I think they were probably working together, but I don't believe that those are the same person writing those. I think that's one of the at least educated conclusions that I feel is true. Again, really, none of us know anything when it comes down to it, like, I always go back to that. I'm like, does anybody actually know anything here? We're all making educated guesses and waiting for more information. But I think that whoever wrote those notes didn't actually do the physical taking of Nancy and is kind of removed. So they're giving some sort of like, you know, we're sorry, sorry this happened. Like it was a quick note. Like, didn't mean for that. So sorry about that. And then that was it. Right? And I think that person's more removed than the actual abductor who took Nancy

[Ashley Banfield]

and the constant reference to we, we, we, we, we. Yes.

[Brianna Whitney]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that could be somebody trying to throw us off, right? But there's too much at stake here for just one person to pull this off. And I don't know about You. But in the early days especially, and I heard this over and over again, and now I just don't even know what to believe. But multiple experts that we had talked to at the time saw the porch guy, the abductor video, and over and over said, this is not a smart criminal. This is kind of, you know, not a. It's a sloppy job. This is not a career, you know, professional or career criminal that pulls off kidnappings. And I mean, I must have heard that five, six times from different people. And it's crazy now, because here we are, and whether or not he is or isn't experienced, we don't have Nancy and we don't know where she is. So it worked. But I don't think that just that person would be able to pull off something like this and still have authorities and the world with no answers like this.

[Ashley Banfield]

I have said all along, this is either the luckiest thug in the world or this thug and whoever this thug is working with are probably. Their days are probably numbered. Because once you open up a conspiracy to more than one person, you open up way more chances of one of you pointing the finger in order to save themselves. And so I'm hoping that that's likely the outcome of all of this. And hopefully these rumblings about, we're getting close to finding, you know, porch guy, or we're getting close to finding TMZ letter writer, the one who wants a bitcoin for the information to serve them up on a silver platter. But that's the other thing with whomever is pestering Harvey Levin with these letters about, give me a bitcoin and I'll give you the. The kidnappers.

[Brianna Whitney]

Yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

That means it's possible that there are even maybe more than those two people, or maybe it's porch guy about to serve up the mastermind. I mean, it is all possible.

[Brianna Whitney]

That's the thing. I mean, any. You could go down any path at this point, and it seems possible. Right? I mean, we just don't know. And it would be nice if the authorities could somehow be able to deem or determine whether or not these letters that are going to Harvey Levin right now, one, are legit or credible, and two, if they're the same kind of people that started with these ransom notes in the beginning, I don't know if we'll get that information, but that would help because I really think that people are so confused. They're like, wait, is he talking about the ransom notes from the beginning?

[Shannon Maldonado]

No.

[Brianna Whitney]

Okay. But then there was the guy that got arrested who they did say was a fraud. So, okay, we have that now. We've got these other notes. Harvey was getting them before. Now there's more coming in. Are those the same? Like, it is just. It's chaos. It feels like a scavenger hunt, which is just absurd. I mean, this is just. The circus of this case is so horrific for those who are living it. And I think that that's just the part that I go back to. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I actually cannot believe that this is still going on the way that it is.

[Ashley Banfield]

I'm with you.

[Brianna Whitney]

But, yeah, it's odd. And I think something, too. I mean, I don't know how you feel about this, but I am and continue to be shocked that we have had no official press conference since the first week of this investigation. And I think that if there were these, you know, people out there, these fraudsters that wanted to try to get in on this for whatever reason, whether it's financial or try to make fake notes, any of that, I think a lot of that could be quelled. If we actually had official information coming out every once in a while, or even just like a couple more times would have been really nice. Because otherwise, now you have everybody in the middle here trying to. Yeah, we're speculating, we're coming up with theories. We're all relying on sources, trying to figure out who. You know, I don't think that that's the best way to go about an investigation. I think, as media, we're all doing our best. And obviously the goal here is to find Nancy, but it would be a lot easier, or at least just maybe a lot more of a safer play within the public, to have the FBI and the Pima County Sheriff's Department give some sort of update, official update on where things stand to the best that they can. I know they can't reveal everything, but for an investigation to this magnitude, it is stunning that we have not had an official press conference since the first week of February.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, it's no secret, I'm no fan of Sheriff Chris Nanos. Number one, his guys said specifically that day one, they had their target and it was the brother in law, and they seized Annie's car, and then they circled her home and they searched it. And all the rest. All the while, Nanos is going out saying, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't want. You know, and every time he goes to the mic, he says something that absolutely makes no sense. Case in point, here's today's he is. Actually. It's from Friday. He says on KVOI radio, he admitted that the two notes that came out first were likely genuine. But then he said about the TMZ note. This is where I just. He's gone right off the rails. I think the FBI has done a number of arrests for false or fake ransom notes. It's a shame that that has happened, but I think we're looking at another one of those today. Have you heard of any other arrests other than the one in the first week?

[Brianna Whitney]

No. No, I haven't. And I think that guy's name's Derek Kalea or. That's right. Kale. Yeah. No, that's the only arrest that I've. I've heard of. And I. I have to imagine if there was an arrest for any involvement in this case, even if it was for being, you know, a fraudster or deemed not legit and that's why you're arrested, we'd hear about it.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yep. Yeah. And it's important. It's not small, you know, to throw something out there like that. It is not small. Small, because these ransom notes have been deemed as the. The default now for the police, who have nothing else to go on, therefore, they are really, really focusing now on these ransom notes. And so to throw something out there that there's just been a couple of other. A bunch of these arrests is like, it's. Sheriff Nanos is not helping, let's put it that way.

[Brianna Whitney]

No. And. And. And he. I mean, he is aware of the criticism that has come. I think one thing that stood out to me in the investigation, when it came to Sheriff Nanos in the. In that press conference, was that he. He said something along the lines of, like, oh, will you guys hold me. Kind of hold me to the fire for whatever I say? And then it goes. And it's like, well. Well, yeah, you're the lead detective. You were the. The lead official on this massive case. So, yeah, like, when you say something that's important and we take that as official statement. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so, I don't know. I think that was a problem for me. That was one thing. And that comment just stuck out to me for me, though, when, gosh, this was Tuesday or Wednesday. So that weekend she went missing. Right. Kind of going backwards. I was out there in Tucson, and we were all out there in front of the house, and I will not forget the Pima County Sheriff's Department. They had deputies out there, and they were looking at the scene, and we were specifically told, hey, yeah, no problem. If you go into the driveway, if you go up to the front door, that's where we saw the blood. We could obviously see where the doorbell camera was missing, and we all made sure of that. And the neighbors were pissed, and I understand that. But that was something that we were given the okay to do. And so, you know, me, like everybody else went up there and got video of the blood, and obviously it was exceptionally important to the case. And then when we learned that we're resecuring the scene and the FBI is going to come back in and they didn't get in, and I thought that was. There was crazy contamination there, and I thought that that was a huge misstep. And Sheriff Nanos himself admitted that. But I couldn't help but think that scene should have been secure from day one.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, I mean, I'll go further. I think it was a day and a half, maybe not even since Nancy had vanished. And he said, there's no cause for alarm, no concern, nothing out there to be worried about. And we're releasing the scene and calling off the search. And, you know, Here we are 149 days later with a lot of folks who know a lot about murder investigations saying that there were things that were done early on that may have cost them dearly in finding Nancy and solving this crime. And one of them may have been the fact that they had just decided on that day. According to the sources I have inside Sheriff Nano's department, they figured they had their guy. It's gotta be the brother in law. We're done. Nothing left to see here. No cause for alarm for anyone else. Now, why else would he say no cause for alarm for anyone else other than they had tunnel vision somewhere else?

[Brianna Whitney]

Yeah, I mean, that's possible. And I mean, I remember when you reported that and like that then came out and then you got a lot of heat for that. Like did. And did your. Did your source at that point say, like at that point? That was a belief, but then we changed. Like, where did that even end up?

[Ashley Banfield]

That didn't even change for weeks. In fact, he said, no, it's not different. That's where their thinking is. And if you think about it, when they seized the brother in law in Annie's car and kept it for almost, almost two months, well past what reasonable search and seizure warrants will allow you under the fourth Amendment. That's cause for, you know, asking some questions. You got about 10 days till you got to return someone's stuff, unless you say hit as evidentiary value. You got to go back to a judge and say, judge, I want to keep this stuff because it has evidentiary value. And they kept it over 54 days. I lost track of the day they finally gave the car back.

[Brianna Whitney]

It was a couple months later.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, it just sort of says, well, it does look like the department had a focus. Was it the wrong focus? I'm not, I'm not weighing in whether it was right or wrong. I'm not weighing in on whether it was accurate or inaccurate. I'm just saying that was happening.

[Brianna Whitney]

Right, right.

[Ashley Banfield]

And if that was happening, were you missing what was happening over here? You know, I think that's what's key.

[Brianna Whitney]

Yes. And I, I mean, it's still confusing to many of us why the people who were detained were detained. I mean, there was, it felt like. Then we swooshed over to that where we had, you know, Carlos, the doordash driver who was detained and he was like, I don't know what's going on. Then we had Luke Daley and his mom Mary detained and they were nearby and I talked to them. I mean, I interviewed them and you know, we had that whole thing. And people still believe that Luke Daley was porch guy. I mean that went on for a long. People still think that. And you know, he's adamant that he's not involved. But it seems that of those two, of those two detainments or I guess three, but like two incidents, we don't, we still don't really know why those people were detained, what that had to do with the investigation. And clearly whatever they were detained for has not come to fruition to, to be anything more for the authorities to act on. Anything.

[Ashley Banfield]

Let me ask you about that. The second note. People have been all over the map on this one that the ransom seekers. In the second note, some people report they didn't ask for money in exchange for the body. Some are reporting they did. They said, for a price, we'll give you back the body. Which one was it?

[Brianna Whitney]

No, there's none of that. No, I mean it was, it was pretty clear they, they underestimated her health condition. They said they believed it was heart related. She perished shortly after she was taken. She's buried with nature. We did not intend or it was not our intention to hurt her like this. We are truly sorry. There was nothing in there that said, hey, yeah, we'll do a deal with you or we'll negotiate or come to talks about returning her. No, nothing, Nothing in there with that.

[Ashley Banfield]

Being a crime reporter for so long. My mind goes two different places, and they're mutually excited, exclusive. Number one, you're not sophisticated enough to know that there is still value in returning someone's loved one dead or alive. Just ask those who had Israeli hostages. They did everything just to get the bodies of their loved ones back. It means everything to have the body of your loved one back. And so there's value to that. And Savannah even said they'd be willing to pay to celebrate with their mom. So either it's total lack of sophistication in knowing that there's still value, or there's utter sophistication in knowing that the forensic threat in returning a body that could have a microscopic smoking gun on it that will lead to your arrest isn't worth whatever money they might pay.

[Brianna Whitney]

Yeah. Yeah. And when you put it that way, I think either one could be true. I mean, my first. First thought is, they don't want any culpability, and she's not alive, so we don't. And I go back to the proof of life, right? Like the Guthrie family asked over and over, show us proof of life. Show us proof of life. And they never got it. So my. My thinking is, who. You know, the abductor who doesn't have proof of life because Nancy is no longer alive, thought, well, I don't have this for them, so the plan's done. Like, this isn't gonna. This isn't gonna work. And then, you know, dispose of her remains somewhere. And I think there are also people who think, okay, well, hey, like, Tucson is not that big of a city, and if they disposed of her nearby, let's get helicopters out there. Let's do some searches. And, I mean, if you haven't been to Arizona, that the desert is extreme, exceptionally vast. She could really be anywhere. And that's even assuming that she's still in Southern Arizona. But even so, I mean, oftentimes you do hear of bodies being found in the desert, but a lot of times it's by, like, a remote hiker or somebody who's doing target practice who found some bones that were there 10 years ago. So that part's really hard because she really could be anywhere. And it's not just as simple as getting a helicopter. Helicopter out there, you know, trying to get any sort of signal or is there infrared that keep. It just doesn't. It doesn't work like that in. In the desert there, which is. It is sad. She could be out there for a long time if that's where she is.

[Ashley Banfield]

And so there's a couple of things to that. There's the buried with nature. That could be the desert, that could be the jungle. But the search group, Buscando Corazonas Nogales, the women down in Mexico who get. They said they got a tip. The Mexican authorities thought it was serious enough to give them backup and support so that they could go out and investigate that tip. They found 25 unmarked bodies before. And I think they also got the tip about she's buried in a grave over a stream in the Mariposa area. That certainly sounds like nature.

[Brianna Whitney]

Yeah. To your point, like, anything could be nature. Right? That's.

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[Brianna Whitney]

And I often think. And put this in the box of, like, Southern Arizona, and then you've got Mexico right there. So that all makes a lot of sense in terms of geographic possibilities. But really, we don't know. I mean, they could have gone to north, you know, northern Arizona, where there's woods, there's other type of canyons. I mean, nature could literally mean anything. So, yeah, it's fair. And I think the Mexican authorities and everything, I mean, they did go and look and see, like, is she there? And they, you know, haven't found anything right to this date, at least that would suggest that she's there. But, I mean, that's. And you bringing that up just. I mean, it's just like all these things happen one after another. That feels just so chaotic.

[Ashley Banfield]

It was.

[Brianna Whitney]

We got ransom notes, we got emails about, hey, we got a phone and like, a safe, and if you give me the Bitcoin, I'll tell you where the phone is and we've got the Mexico tip. I mean, it's just. It's crazy. It's crazy. And it's hard to keep up with, to be honest. And it's hard because it's like, what some of it feels like, you know, the little boy that cried wolf. Like, how many times are we just going to get these things come in where it's like, oh, well, here's another one. Here's another one. Like, you start to almost become numb to these tips and be like, well, that. That just doesn't seem legit. But, I mean, I think it's good we're taking these things seriously. But it's hard when you've got people writing in saying, hey, yeah, let's make this deal so I can give you the. You can find the phone in the closet. And it's just like, what are we even doing? I mean, this is. It just. It blows my mind that where we are and that Every week there's something that's seemingly new where we're all back on the, okay, is this credible? Is it not? And we never know, really, because the authorities aren't putting out information as such.

[Ashley Banfield]

They're leaving it to the wolves. Yeah. To try to figure out on their own. And what you end up with is a giant Internet of don't fuck with cats, you know, and everyone's trying to put in their clues and dissect videos and all the rest. There was something that Howard Blum reported in airmail, and I'm not sure if it's just lost in syntax, but I wanted to get your thoughts on it. It's from the first ransom note. And it said that the first ransom note detailed the terms for an exchange.

[Brianna Whitney]

Yes.

[Ashley Banfield]

Then I thought, hold the phone, terms for an exchange, like the money or actual protocol, like, you put the money in the bitcoin wallet and we will bring her to this bridge. Like, was it that detailed?

[Brianna Whitney]

Somewhat. Yes, it was an exchange of, you know, we will return her to Tucson. So, yes, that exchange is in the first note. But it doesn't detail exactly like what that exact location was going to be. But it said she would be returned upon. Upon receiving the bitcoin.

[Ashley Banfield]

So the terms for the exchange were just the financial terms. It sounds like it wasn't like, we're going to meet you halfway. She'll be in a, you know, in a burlap sack. Or. It was nothing like that.

[Brianna Whitney]

Not to that extent. No. It just said she would be dropped off at a safe location or some type of location in the Tucson area. Back in Tucson. But that it did not say, like, she'll be wearing this. And we're going to be at mile marker 224 and. No. Right. No. So it was definitely like, here's the plan on. On when you pay this, here's what we will do to return her to Tucson. And it does specifically note that it. She would be returned back to Tucson.

[Ashley Banfield]

What gets in my craw, apart from all of it, was that that first note arrived, everyone says the next day, but the truth is it's almost two full days.

[Shannon Maldonado]

Right.

[Ashley Banfield]

She goes missing.

[Brianna Whitney]

It's almost two days.

[Shannon Maldonado]

Yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

She goes missing in the middle of the night. Saturday to Sunday. All of Sunday goes by, all. All of Monday goes by. And at 6:42pm Suddenly, TMZ and two TV stations get the ransom note. And it makes me think, you sons of bitches, she was already dead and you sent out ransom notes anyway.

[Brianna Whitney]

Yeah. And I don't know that detail is odd that if they are legit, that first ransom note wouldn't have come out nearly immediately. Right. I mean, that if your entire goal was get money financial than when you have wanted to get that going asap. Yeah, one would think so. Yeah. That detail is. Is odd. And perhaps she was already dead. I. What's odd, though, is. Yeah, I. Clearly, there's obviously differing in language between ransom note one and then that second one that came in between. We will drop her off, pay the ransom and the two deadlines. Right. And we reported that long ago that there was the two deadlines versus that second note that came in saying she's passed. We didn't. We underestimated the health condition. We're sorry. Two very different tones there. So, you know, if you're following the notes and you believe that they were going chronologically and being truthful, then she would have died in between there. But it's very possible what you bring up, that they. She had already passed and they were like, well, we'll just keep this going for a little bit.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, I mean, I wonder what she perished shortly after she was taken means. I mean, what's shortly in your books? Two full days. Because they had two full days before they sent, you know, pushed send on those notes. So it does make me wonder if these folks are at odds with each other. So, for instance, game this out with me. They grab Nancy Guthrie. Her heart is terrible. Obviously, she can't walk to the end of the driveway, as Savannah said, unaided. She needs her medication every 24 hours. So, you know, by Monday morning, we're in trouble. And if she dies. And the hard ass among them said, too bad, we're going ahead with the plan, Send out the ransom note. How did it change so that four days later, somebody with the we're so sorry, you know, Gene decided to prevail and get that second note out. It makes me wonder if there's maybe not a whole lot of, you know. Yeah, harmony.

[Brianna Whitney]

That could be my other. Like just to throw another possibility in there is did they want the coverage, the notoriety of it, before they then put their plan into motion so that there was possibly more likely a reason to pay. I don't know. Could that be a reason that they held off on sending it and they're like, we're going to drum up.

[Ashley Banfield]

What's crazy about that is that real ransom seekers, the ones who mean business and do this for a living and make a lot of money at it, they don't get the media involved. They don't want the notoriety. They want note to go to the family. And they say to the family, you say anything to anybody, even your Uncle Steve, and she loses a finger. I mean, they are so, so serious about keeping it quiet because the more people who know, the more eyeballs are out there, the more difficult this is. You can't move around with her. So that's why all of it just sounds like it's a bunch of like, Abbott and Costello's trying to pull off a heist. And. And here we are. They have, right?

[Brianna Whitney]

I mean, they. It. It. By all accounts, it. It worked. I mean, they didn't. Obviously, this didn't end. We don't believe in Nancy being returned home safely and alive and the money being paid. It just didn't. Obviously, that's not how it panned out. But, like, the fact that we have no answers here is. It's pretty frustrating. And I personally don't believe that porch guy and the abductor was the mastermind of this plan. So even if you catch him, which would be a great development based on where we're at now, I don't know if you'll get the why. Like, you might get the, hey, yeah, this person was involved, but you may never get the why. And I feel like. Or the where or where. Ancient. I mean, there's answers there that people want. And I think, I feel like we see this time and time again in investigations. And I. The one that just comes to mind is Bryan Coburger. Like, I feel like we got to the end of that and everyone was like, okay, but why? Like, why them?

[Ashley Banfield]

So unsatisfying.

[Brianna Whitney]

It's so unsatisfying. And with the public following this case as much as they are, it is possible we will never learn the why, even if there is an arrest made for that person. Because whoever is actually masterminding the plan, they may not be in this country, they may not be in a place where the FBI can get them, and that person may never come forward. I mean, that. That part really is. Is disheartening.

[Ashley Banfield]

What I will say is, no matter where you fall in on this argument of the death penalty, Arizona is a death penalty state. And hanging the death penalty, like Damocles sword over someone's head, has a remarkable way of getting them to talk. Whether they say things that are true, that's tricky. But a lot of times they do, especially if it's a conspiracy and if they can get death or they. They can at least see a prospect of them being released from prison down the line Instead of dying in a box or going out with a toe tag, it's a pretty good motivator for people to give up the others who, by the way, there's never honor among thieves. And thank God for that.

[Brianna Whitney]

Right, Right. And you have to hope if they get to that person that that's how that would. Would play out. I mean, I think at this point, I think ultimately everybody just would love to be able to see Nancy's remains found and for the Guthrie's to be able to have some closure at some point. I mean, this is a life altering event for the Guthrie family for the rest of their lives. But I. Every time I watch Savannah talk about it, I just think like, I don't know how she's doing this. I don't know how she's this brave to be able to keep going with her job. And it's so front facing and everyone's wondering and asking and theorizing and all of that. And I just. It's just awful. It's just awful. I'm shocked that somebody could pull off something like this in 2026. I'm shocked that we didn't have more cameras that picked up something. I'm shocked we don't have more DNA or any answers as to the DNA at this point. It's like everything you hear about how we've improved in technology and you can't get away with things. This was back to 1995 and it worked. And it is shocking to me that we're at the point that we are.

[Ashley Banfield]

I will say this. There's still six months left in 19 into 2026, and there's no statute of limitations on murder either. So we can. Right, we can cross our fingers and we can hold out hope. And I'm one of those people who feels like, yeah, I think they're going to. I think these guys aren't sophisticated enough to really hold off the. The breaking dam of the United States government. I would say not the two side, not the, you know, Fremont County Sheriff's Department, but certainly, certainly, I think the FBI. And let's hope that you and I are going to meet again, you know, and have something better to report.

[Brianna Whitney]

Yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

Until that time, thank you for this. It's been really good to meet you and congratulations on all your awesome reporting.

[Brianna Whitney]

Thank you. It's been. It's been great to connect. I know you've done a ton of hard work on this case and, and we all see each other doing a lot of good work on a case that deserves a lot of good work. So I appreciate getting to connect and discuss where we are right now and hopefully better news in the future. Future?

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, I'm happy for Crime Junkie, but I wish you came to drop dead serious. Anyway, great job. Thanks, Brianna.

[Brianna Whitney]

Thanks, Ashley. Appreciate it.

[Ashley Banfield]

My great thanks to Brianna Whitney, great reporter for Crime Junkie. Check her out. Check out Crime Junkie. Hey, everybody. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for watching, thank you for subscribing, and thank you to the members. I appreciate you so much. You don't even know. And if you're not a member, join. We'd love to have you. In the meantime, truth isn't just serious, Strop. Dead serious.