Ashley Banfield (5:14)

And if Jeffrey and Ghislaine's victims had been treated the same, things might have been different. But they weren't.

Ashley Banfield (5:23)

Jeffrey and Ghislaine picked their victims very specifically from a certain socioeconomic background, from a certain family background, so that people wouldn't ask questions. They weren't from church going families like Elizabeth Smarts. They were from different families in different parts of Florida. And Jeffrey and Ghislaine knew where the Pickens were good. And consequently, Elizabeth points out, so astutely that so much of the blame somehow, in a twisted way, falls on the victims. Somehow they need to be questioned as to why they were even there. But they were kids, just like Elizabeth. Elizabeth has a new book coming out in just a couple of days. I'm recording this on December 1st. The book is called Detours, Hope and Growth After Life's Hardest Turns. And she's decided to write an essay about Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein and how similar their crimes were. The crimes that were perpetrated against her by Wanda and David, the poor homeless couple. Earlier on my News Nation show, I had a chance to talk to Elizabeth about this, about her epiphany and coming out to talk about Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell and make that comparison to the trauma that she went through, especially when it comes to one of Jeffrey Epstein's victims who died. Here is my conversation with Elizabeth Smart, 23 years since she was abducted.

Ashley Banfield (Interviewer) (6:55)

Well, I'm not gonna lie. I was a little bit surprised when I saw you weighing in on the Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell case. And as I thought through it, it made perfect sense. But I was so curious as to when it sort of dawned on you the thesis that you've posited and when you decided to come up publicly with it.

Elizabeth Smart (7:15)

I mean, I would say right from the start I was invested in this case and I have followed it and I felt like the conn.

Elizabeth Smart (7:25)

Was really pretty apparent from the start. But I guess it was in more recent time that I felt like I needed to say something. I mean, with Virginia passing away earlier this year.

Elizabeth Smart (7:38)

I just felt more needed to be done. And this case where these lists of names were going to be released and then the na and then just so much back and forth, I just felt like this is not fair, this is not right. It shouldn't matter what your background is. You shouldn't be able to hide, you shouldn't be able to. To buy your safety.

Ashley Banfield (8:01)

Yeah.

Ashley Banfield (Interviewer) (8:01)

And Virginia Giuffre, we should remind people that she came into being known as a public entity, as an adult. But she was 17 when that photograph was taken with Prince Andrew's arm around her bare midriff and Ghislaine Maxwell smiling in the background. This, you've got to Remember, is a 17 year old girl who was already ensconced in this life, being flown all around the world and being, you know, asked to service Jeffrey Epstein's male friends, allegedly Prince Andrew Bing among them. She died by suicide this year. And this was like a heartbreak to you. Tell me a little bit more about how you were affected by the news of her death.

Elizabeth Smart (8:43)

It felt like. I mean, I felt like we had failed her. I feel like so many victims when they come forward, when they try to share their stories, especially if it's against respected people in the community, they are put on trial in the court of public opinion. And part of me just feels like we really failed her. I mean, were we there the same way that communities have come together? For me, I've had so many people over the years say to me things like, I prayed for you. I searched for you. I remember exactly where I was the day that you were rescued. And that support has honestly helped me so much in my life. Nobody's ever turned to me and been like, I don't actually think you were kidnapped. I actually think you ran away. No one's ever said that to me. But what were the comments that were said to Virginia? I mean, did she feel that same support, or did she feel like people were tearing her apart or. She wasn't really a child. 17 is just so close to being an adult. It's not really a child. Well, actually, 17 is still a child. And that wasn't her first, like, her first encounter at 17. I mean, are you saying that I was an adult? 14, 15. That's not that different than 17. I mean, 17 is still a child.

Ashley Banfield (9:57)

Yeah.

Ashley Banfield (Interviewer) (9:58)

What do you attribute this to? Because we all saw the pictures of Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzee. They were just this frantically scattered homeless couple, rife with all sorts of mental illnesses and just, you know, plagued with criminal intent in what they did to you.

Ashley Banfield (10:16)

These were the first, some of the.

Ashley Banfield (Interviewer) (10:17)

First, if not the first, mugshots that came out. Do you ascribe sort of the economic difference in the strata between these two and Jeffrey and Ghislaine, who were literally top of the A list, you really.

Rocket Money Announcer (10:33)

Want to be better with your finances. You try to put money away in savings. You look for deals. You wrote out a budget once a long time ago. You still overdraft from time to time, and you still have debt. The truth is, managing money is not easy, but Rocket Money can help. Rocket Money shows you exactly what you're spending every month. From there, the app helps you make a budget that meets your financial goals. The app even gives you real time alerts when you're about to go over your budget so you don't spend too much. With Rocket Money, you can also see all your subscriptions at a glance and cancel the ones you don't want. Right from the app. Rocket Money can even try to get you a refund for some of the money wasted. Plus, you can use the smart savings feature to start putting more money away. Rocket Money analyzes your accounts to determine the optimal time to stow away cash without going over your budget. Our members report that the Rocket Money app save more than $700 a year. Getting better with money doesn't have to be a pipe dream. Rocket Money can make it a reality. Go to RocketMoney.com cancel or download the app from the Apple app or Google Play stores. Think about the last time you had a cancel subscription. There's probably some waiting on hold, some guessing at your password, some mind numbing small talk, and maybe after all that, you still weren't able to cancel it. Good news. It doesn't have to be this way. Thanks to Rocket Money, Rocket Money tracks, manages and can cancel your subscriptions for you. When you connect your accounts, you'll see a complete picture of all your reoccurring subscriptions all in one place. Rocket Money organizes your subscriptions by due date and notifies you when something's coming up. So you'll never be caught off guard when you get charged. If you see a subscription you want to cancel, Rocket Money simplifies the process. Instead of waiting on hold for an hour, you can cancel it right from the app. Rocket Money will even try to get you a refund for the money you spent on subscriptions you forgot about. Stop wasting your time trying to cancel subscriptions the hard way. Make your life easier and go to RocketMoney.com cancel. That's RocketMoney.com cancel or download the app from the Apple app or Google Play stores.

Elizabeth Smart (12:34)

Honestly haven't thought too much about their side and the economic differences between them. Other then I feel like it did play a role in in their cases. I feel like it has made a role in Ghislaine. I feel like it's played a role in her case and but beyond that, no.

Elizabeth Smart (13:00)

I feel like maybe because like it looked like I came from a really nice upper class family. I think that could have played a role in why people maybe believed my story and supported me a bit more than Virginia.

Ashley Banfield (Interviewer) (13:17)

It's heartbreaking to think that kids are kids, you know, no matter who their families are. I mean I always cite your case, Elizabeth. When a child goes missing and parents are questioned because nobody believes that the bogeyman can just come into a house and steal a child. But the bogeyman came to your house and stole you. It happens. It's happened multiple times in my career. I've covered it. And, you know, the bogeyman doesn't have to take you from your bed. They can take you from anywhere. They can take you from a school ground, which is what so many of Epstein's victims were taken from. They were taken from cheerleading practice. They were taken from, you know, their high school friends were co opting them into it, thinking they were doing the right thing or at least trying to protect themselves. I want to ask you just something personal if I can, because even when we were producing the story today, the producer who I worked with on this story, Michelle, we had a conversation about how we would present it because we.

Ashley Banfield (14:08)

Didn'T want to hurt you.

Ashley Banfield (Interviewer) (14:09)

Telling the story of Barzee and her crimes and showing those mug shots. We were worried how it would be for you to see that and process it right before I was interviewing you. And it made me realize you're seeing it on the news all the time. She just made the news last week. How do you process this stuff? Even 23 years later?

Elizabeth Smart (14:30)

I certainly am not.

Elizabeth Smart (14:34)

Happy about seeing her pictures in the news. I.

Elizabeth Smart (14:41)

There is a level of disappointment, I feel like when it comes to her case specifically and knowing that she has been released and she's out, I also have to remind myself that it's really only about one in every thousand predators that actually is successfully prosecuted. And so when I think of that, I am happy. Happy. I don't know if that's the right word, but I feel lucky that my case got something some kind of. Again, I hesitate to use the word justice, but it was prosecuted, and so many victims never get that. And then I also have to remind myself that this is my life and I only get one shot at life. And do I really want to live my life being upset or angry or scared, knowing that Wanda Barzee is out there and in the news. And maybe I'm just that stubborn. But I don't want to live my life unhappy. I mean, I want to have a wonderful life. I want to be happy. I want to do all the things I want to do.

Ashley Banfield (15:43)

You know, I spent a lot of time in Utah after Elizabeth was abducted. I sat with her parents. I interviewed her parents. I remember the mood among the media and the police when it came to her parents. People just didn't believe that kids could be snatched from their beds in the middle of the night. It must be the family. And that is always where, usually rightly so. The curiosity lies and the questions lie and the suspicions lie. It's usually someone Within a family or someone the child knows, knows. But in the case of the smarts, none of the above. It was the boogeyman and the life. They went through, the scrutiny, they went through, the cruelty that they went through with the press, with the public. I think maybe the only bright spot is that social media wasn't around, right? Google was just kind of getting going. And, you know, in 2002, we just didn't have the same shared experience online, for better or for worse that we do now. And still, I can tell you from being there, it was horrendous. There were newspapers that had just cruel and insulting headlines without any proof that some people were going and buying up in bulk just to get them off the stands. It was something else. And then I remember learning for the first time what the strategy is when a child goes missing. There are groups that come in to help the affected family right away to strategize, right? And one of the key strategies is to hold back photos. Don't, don't just give all the photos of the child out right at once, because the media will run them all. And then a week later, when there's no movement in the story, they will move on to other stories and that story will not be highlighted again. And we all know that it is us, the public, that can help solve these crimes. Spot the child, spot the perpetrators. That's how Elizabeth's captors were caught. That's how Elizabeth was rescued. Somebody finally thought they recognized something in this story in front of them and ask some questions, right? So the strategy is to dole out some photos in the first few days, then fresh photos days after that, and to hold back as long as you can to keep the story alive in the press. I remember learning that for the first time in the Elizabeth Smart case. And then I remembered when the photos ran out, and I remembered when the media was packing up. I think I was there for five weeks straight in Salt Lake City. And it was just so incredibly sad to see that there was no resolution. And there likely wouldn't be, because that is usually how these stories end. If you don't find that child within the first 48 hours, first few days, first few weeks, the chances you're going to find that child are slim to none. And that's how everybody kind of left that story. And then nine months later.

Ashley Banfield (18:29)

My God, America's Most Wanted did the feature. And Elizabeth Smart, if you can believe it, had a veil over her face because that's what Wanda and David made her do. They walked her in plain Sight all through downtown Salt Lake City. For weeks and weeks and weeks on end, a police officer was right in front of her saying, what's your name? And Elizabeth Smart was so terrorized by this horrendous couple, she gave a fake name. There is her savior, a police officer right in front of her. And she was so terrified what Brian David Mitchell would do to her. With the help of Wanda Barzee, she gave the police officer a fake name. But the police officer kept going. I said, I don't, I don't. I don't think you're telling me the truth. I don't think that's your name. What's your name? And eventually she said her name and she was rescued. But that tells you the power that these people can have over kids. They had her for nine months. They abused her physically and mentally for nine months. And today she is a remarkable young woman who is able to impart her wisdom on so many others who could really benefit from it. Want to also let you know I have dropped another episode that I am really proud of.

Ashley Banfield (19:47)

It is the story that launched my career in true crime. Honestly, almost 40 years ago, it was my first true crime story. And to this day, it remains the worst. It remains the one that haunts me the most. It remains the most inexplicable. The Barbie and Ken murders. Carla Homoca and Paul Bernardo, a young married couple with everything, you know, fairy tale wedding, good jobs, good money, came from good families and they were serial murderers and rapists together. And I covered the case. And from that moment on, I knew where I was headed. So I hope you will check that story out. It's definitely got a different take. If you've heard the story before, I want to take you back to me living it and the things that I knew and heard that never made the papers. Hope you'll check it out. It's called the Barbie and Ken Killers. You should see it in the list below and I would love to hear your comments on it also. Like and subscribe and leave comments and tell me your thoughts what you'd like me to cover. I actually did a story based on one of our members. Suggestions, questions? She wanted to hear it. I said, my, my. Your wish is my command. And away we went. That one is another great story. You should check it out. It's a Canadian story. Two little kids, Jack and Lily Sullivan, disappeared from their home. Two little kids disappeared from their trailer without a trace. And the parents pass all of the lie detector tests and it is bad, baffling to the police. So check that story out as well. I'm hoping that that will have a good resolution. As we go into winter, it's getting harder and harder to look for them. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for watching. I'm Ashley Banfield and remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's dropped. Dead serious.

Rocket Money Announcer (21:39)

Think about the last time you had a cancel subscription. There's probably some waiting on hold, some guessing at your password, some mind numbing small talk, and maybe after all that, you still weren't able to cancel it. Good news, it doesn't have to be this way. Thanks to Rocket Money, Rocket Money tracks, manages, and can cancel your subscriptions for you. When you connect your accounts, you'll see a complete picture of all your reoccurring subscriptions all in one place. Rocket Money organizes your subscriptions by due date and notifies you when something's coming up so you'll never be caught off guard when you get charged. If you see a subscription you want to cancel, Rocket Money simplifies the process. Instead of waiting on hold for an hour, you can cancel it right from the app. Rocket Money will even try to get you a refund for the money you spent on subscriptions you forgot about. Stop wasting your time trying to cancel subscriptions the hard way. Make your life easier and go to rocketmoney.com cancel. That's rocketmoney.com cancel. Or download the app from the Apple app or Google Play stores.