Carlos Palazzo (8:27)

As you can see, I have nothing to do with it.

Interviewer 1 (8:29)

Right, Carlos? What do you want? People, your name's everywhere.

Carlos Palazzo (8:32)

I'm innocent. That's all I can say. I have nothing to do with this.

Ashley Banfield (8:35)

Were you shocked when.

Carlos Palazzo (8:36)

Yeah, I was.

Interviewer 1 (8:37)

Tell me, come on.

Carlos Palazzo (8:38)

What do you expect me to do?

Ashley Banfield (8:42)

See.

Carlos Palazzo (8:45)

They helped me against my will. They didn't even re me my rights until two hours later. Okay, you know me. My wrist is all swollen from. From the bank, like.

Interviewer 1 (8:56)

And did you have any idea that this was about.

Ashley Banfield (8:59)

Damn it.

Interviewer 1 (8:59)

Do you know who Nancy Guthrie is?

Ashley Banfield (9:01)

No.

Carlos Palazzo (9:01)

That's a problem. No, I don't know anything.

Interviewer 1 (9:04)

You were like, where is this coming from?

Matt Murphy (9:06)

How did they come up on you?

Carlos Palazzo (9:07)

I don't know.

Matt Murphy (9:08)

Like, what, were you just driving around?

Carlos Palazzo (9:10)

Yeah. Working.

Ashley Banfield (9:12)

Yeah.

Interviewer 1 (9:12)

They said you're delivering doordash.

Matt Murphy (9:14)

Oh, how they pull up on you like.

Carlos Palazzo (9:16)

Nah, I pulled up on them. They were following me. Yeah, they were following me. Miranda is in Santa Cruz county and Miranda was down here. It's like, come on, two and two.

Matt Murphy (9:26)

And so then when they. When they came up on you, what did they say? Like, what did they say?

Carlos Palazzo (9:30)

Nothing. Literally nothing. Nothing. They just told me it's. Stop moving. Like, what's your name? Carlos. And that's it. They put me in the cop car. I got to wait like two hours. I waited like two hours until the detectives kill here and everything.

Interviewer 1 (9:42)

Oh, my God.

Matt Murphy (9:43)

Well, when they finally told you this was had to do with some kidnapping, like, what. What were you thinking?

Carlos Palazzo (9:48)

What the am I doing here? I didn't do anything, to be honest.

Interviewer 1 (9:51)

Like, I'm innocent and you don't even know who the lady is. Do you know who Savannah gun is?

Carlos Palazzo (9:56)

No, I don't follow the news.

Ashley Banfield (9:58)

Right.

Interviewer 1 (9:59)

You don't watch the Today show?

Rocket Money Advertiser (10:00)

No.

Interviewer 1 (10:01)

So this was a complete shock.

Carlos Palazzo (10:03)

It was.

Matt Murphy (10:03)

What kind of questions were they asking you?

Carlos Palazzo (10:05)

Nothing. They didn't ask me no questions.

Rocket Money Advertiser (10:08)

Nothing? Nothing.

Carlos Palazzo (10:09)

They just sent me in the car. They investigated my car and this man, and that's it. They didn't ask me no questions.

Interviewer 1 (10:15)

Did you get the other car back or they still have it?

Carlos Palazzo (10:18)

No, it's right there.

Interviewer 1 (10:19)

Oh, they gave it back to you? So.

Carlos Palazzo (10:21)

Yeah, it's like.

Interviewer 1 (10:21)

And they said, you can go home.

Carlos Palazzo (10:22)

Yeah.

Matt Murphy (10:23)

And how did they treat. Like the people you were with. Your girl, Your child.

Carlos Palazzo (10:27)

I don't want to speak.

Matt Murphy (10:28)

Yeah.

Interviewer 1 (10:29)

How's your family? They scared everybody. I was gonna say they scared everybody, huh?

Carlos Palazzo (10:34)

Yeah, they're all in shock right now.

Matt Murphy (10:36)

Wow. Did they damage the house?

Interviewer 1 (10:39)

What did they do to the house?

Carlos Palazzo (10:40)

They broke the doors. What else, babe? The garage door in the back.

Interviewer 1 (10:45)

So what are you gonna do now?

Carlos Palazzo (10:47)

I tried to clear my name. I didn't do anything. Well, this is one of the things. I mean, I hope they get the suspect because I'm not it. They better do their job and find the suspect that did it so they can clear my name, and I'm done. Look at what I'm putting my family through.

Interviewer 1 (11:02)

You're on national news now.

Carlos Palazzo (11:03)

Not just them. You're my parents in Tucson. Yeah.

Matt Murphy (11:07)

And your mother in law was worried about you. She was saying it doesn't look anything like that.

Carlos Palazzo (11:10)

Yeah, see, that's what I'm telling you guys.

Kash Patel (11:12)

Like, what the.

Ashley Banfield (11:13)

Why do you think they came here? Why did you think they came to you?

Carlos Palazzo (11:16)

Yeah, if I. If I would have known the answer, I would have given it to you, but I don't.

Interviewer 1 (11:19)

So you have no idea what led them to you?

Ashley Banfield (11:21)

Nothing. They didn't.

Interviewer 1 (11:22)

They didn't say car, make a license, nothing.

Ashley Banfield (11:26)

N. Here's the question. How did they get to him? What brought them to Carlos's house? Right. Did they get a tip? After that video, I didn't even realize.

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Brian Entin (12:37)

Support is available 24.

Ashley Banfield (12:39)

7 with VRBoCare. We're here day or night ready whenever you need help because a great trip so starts with the right support. There's some reporting that they had other investigative process that led them to Carlos Palazzo's house. But you know, they released him and that poor family had a hell of a night. And poor Carlos, he sure took it in stride. But I look pretty pissed to me. In any case, I don't think that's going anywhere they let him go. And back to square one. Or what square are we on? Because they're not talking to us very much. I do want to tell you about the images that the FBI released. And we were all kind of overwhelmed by this terrifying image of the guy in the balaclava. But tucked in the in the videos and the still images was one image that if you look more closely, tells a bigger story. It's the kidnapper outside of the arch of Nancy's entranceway, not wearing the backpack, not wearing the gun. Where's the backpack? Where's the gun? What sequence did this video come in? Is this the first time that this guy approaches the house, or is it the second after he's already been up there with the backpack and the gun and he's gone in a different way and done something and he's coming back to the front door? It's just a little fascinating when you see where'd you put the gun? Where'd you put the backpack? Why are you back at the front door? What I cannot see in that picture is if the blood droplets are on that front entryway. It's just too hard to tell if Nancy Guthrie's blood has already been spilled on that front entryway at the time of the second image, the first image, you see him, right? The one that you know sequentially we were sent with the backpack and the light in the mouth. And that one, you can tell there's no blood in the front entryway. The second one, second image him outside that entryway without the backpack, without the gun. Can't tell if the blood is there. It just. It means there's more video. It means more than likely there's more video. And I sense that in the days to come, we will get more. Right. I think they have to dole it out in bits and pieces, because every time they dole it out, guess what happens? Tips. Tips come in. Is that what led the police to Carlos Palazzo's? I don't know. Did they get a tip? Apparently the reporting is. Is that it's other things as well. Not necessarily just, you know, a reaction to the video. Carlos himself said, I don't know. They were. I was told that my eyes look like this guy, you know, but there's something else I want you to look at in the image, because if you look closer, I. I had talked at length in my podcast last night about the mouth light. I've spoken to digital forensics experts who do not believe that that is a reflection from a grill or from silverteeth. That that is absolutely a mouth light. And the more you look at the video, the more that bears out. Because as he's approaching, before he gets to a slight step up onto Nancy's front entrance, he lights it up like he's expecting that step to be a few feet away. It's very telling. It almost makes you feel like he knows that step is coming. It is pitch black out there, folks. This is night vision camera. Just imagine he is not seeing anything. It is pitch black. So what you're seeing is not what he's seeing. And that mouth camera, as his face is towards the ground, looks to light up the ground and light up that step. But interestingly, it lights it up before he gets there. Almost as though he knows it's there. So is he familiar with Nancy Guthrie's entranceway? Is he familiar that the gravel walkway. Gravel ish walkway. Eventually leads to a step up onto the. That porch. It's a slight step up, but it's a step up and he seems to know it's coming. That was very, very telling. Jim Clementi, retired FBI supervisory Special Agent. He's Also producer of CBS's Criminal Minds. Tweeted out a picture. And I'm always mindful. I'm watching social media, I'm watching Twitter. I don't jump on everything I see. Some people are a bit out there, but when Jim did this with his FBI background, I was more fascinated. He zeroed in on a brief moment when this perpetrator reaches and there's a very slight space, the slight space between his glove, his shirt sleeve and you can see a little bit of skin. And Jim Clemente said in his tweet, you know, is this a tattoo? Other people noticed it as well. And there's Jim with all of his expertise saying, is this a tattoo? I think it's helpful because whenever they have someone that they're going to bring in, they're going to look for that more than likely. Right. And I know a lot of you are speculating online about who's got tattoos, but I'm not going to go there right now. So another very interesting observation came from Steve Fisher, who's a private investigator in California. I've interviewed him on the show on News Nation when I did Banfield, and he's been very, very forward on the David story. Right. The David and Celeste story. He's been breaking a lot of news on that. He noticed when he slowed down the video of the perpetrator's gloves, he got to a point where it appeared there might be a small hole in the perpetrator's glove right on the tip of the finger. I found that really interesting because if one of these gloves that was found by law enforcement today has that little hole in the glove, it's very telling because you know what else is in a glove, right? Skin cells, fingerprints, sometimes, not always, but DNA. You know what else can be on the outside of a glove? Blood and DNA, potentially of Nancy or something in Nancy's home. Touch DNA. All of that could be on those gloves, if those are the gloves in question. I will also say this, and Matt Murphy will weigh in on this in a moment. Go outside next time and really look around. You'll probably see some gloves on the side of the road. They're all over the place. Gardeners and workers and all sorts of people discard gloves all the time. But listen, this is all within the vicinity of Nancy Guthrie's home. So a black glove that looks a lot like the one in the video. Really, really important evidence. And my thought is that they were processing it the minute they got it in. So watch this space for the developments from that. Okay, let me get into Kash Patel's comments, because I hung on every word that Kash Patel said to Sean Hannity because Cash is in Tucson and he's talking to the agents down there, Right. And he said something so specific about the videos that they got from nest. First of all, he characterized this as though, you know, the NEST cams. And can I just remind you that a week ago Tuesday, I reported that my source told me they were NEST Cams, Right? They're Nest cams. He reported that the FBI worked with Google and brought the power of the FBI into the partnership with Google to actually get video that perhaps Nest and Google couldn't get themselves. Because ultimately these images were there. I mean, these images, you know, the FBI was told, sorry, or at least the sheriff said, we were told, sorry, there's nothing we can do. There's nothing we can get. Well, damn it, did they ever. And so I listened to what Kash Patel told Hannity about that, and I want you to listen as well, but I want you to train your ears to the plural that he uses when he talks about person of interest. He says persons of interest. So let's play that clip from Hannity. Take a look.

Kash Patel (20:33)

And not only were able to get this type of information, but we were able to exploit information pursuant to our private sector partner engagements that showed us that there might be persons of interest in and around the area related to this event. And so, first and foremost, our priority is to find Nancy out three and of course, right behind that is to find anyone and any others involved in this kidnapping case to make sure they're brought to justice. And that's what we're doing. We're protecting the integrity of the investigation, but we're also being very public because it's a very public facing case. And as President Trump said, all resources have been dedicated to this investigation. They're going to continue on the ground getting everything and absolutely anything they need from the FBI.

Ashley Banfield (21:13)

So the next question that Hannity asked him was really important. He said, do you believe there are people of people of interest? Now listen to the question and listen to Cash Patel's answer.

Matt Murphy (21:25)

Director Patel, can I ask you just straight up, do you believe there are people of interest? Now, have we gotten to that point? Are there potential suspects now out there.

Kash Patel (21:35)

Sean, without, you know, polluting the investigation, I will say we have made substantial progress in these last 36, 48 hours thanks to the technical capabilities, the FBI and our partnerships. And I do believe we are looking at people who, as we say, are persons of interest. But as you know, with any investigation, you are a person of interest until you're either eliminated or you're actually found to be the culprit or the culprit's involved. And that's the stage we're at right now.

Ashley Banfield (22:00)

Why I find that so fascinating is because Kash Patel went on Hannity just a few hours after the FBI actually released those images of a single person, one person, at that front entrance of Nancy Guthrie's home and yet he's talking about multiple. So is there something they know about either what else happened around her home, on the back door? Cameras, maybe the cameras inside the home that they're not discussing. Maybe there's more. Maybe there's more than one person. It's very hard to carry a 150 pound deadweight person out of a home against her will. And if she's dead, God forbid, it's very hard to carry dead weight of 150lbs if you're by yourself. Very hard. Not that it can't be done. It can. And Matt actually has a case. He's going to talk about this in just a moment that it can be done. But do they know of some conspiracy? Are they looking for co conspirators? That is all in play right now. Without question. Certainly with regard to Cash's comments and the video that shows one person, not multiple. Also a KGUN reporter that's a local station in Tucson that's been at the heart of this because they also received one of the ransom communications. That reporter said that, quote, a source close to law enforcement has discovered the backpack and it looks like it's available at Walmart. It's called the Ozark Trail Hiker Backpack. The KGUN reporter isn't the only person that found that information. According to the source close to law enforcement, other sleuth ers found it. Right? Loads of people sleuthing on the Internet and reporters alike discovered that that kind of backpack is available at Walmart and that it is the Ozark Trail Hiker Backpack. Thank God, how many Walmarts. They'll go to all of them and they will ask about every one of those purchases and they will work with Walmart. They will ask about shipping. Who got a Ozark Trail Hiker backpack shipped to an address in the Tucson area. I can't tell you how many crimes have been solved this way. Like too many, too many that I've witnessed. I've watched these guys on camera at the checkout at Walmart buying the things that they use in the crimes they're going to use. You know, it's just. It just happens so often that they just think they're anonymous when they're making the purchases. Even if they're using cash because the cameras are always on the checkout, right? And if you have it sent to you, well, you got to have it sent to an address, right? And you got to know someone at that address and that someone is going to drop a dime on you. If the FBI Shows up and arrests them. Right. So that's a fascinating piece of the puzzle. I still want to know what was in that backpack. And Matt murphy has something to say that took my breath away. But I guess we got to consider it. And it's upsetting. It's coming in a moment. Something else that happened today that was odd. Remember the pizzas that showed up at nancy guthrie's house the other day? And it was like, what the hell? Where's the sheriff? To stop the pizza delivery guy from taking three pizzas up to her door. It was all innocuous. It was a viewer of who's a live streamer sending him some food. And the only address that they had was. Was nancy's house. And the sheriff actually put a statement out saying, please don't order anything to the house. Well, today a flower delivery showed up at Nancy's house. Look, I'm sure that the intentions are very, very kind. Someone who wants to send flowers. It happens a lot, actually, at crime scenes that I've been at a lot. Flowers showed up at brian laundrie's parents house, you know, but the note wasn't so nice on the flower delivery. I remember that. But the flower delivery that showed up at nancy's house today was actually compounded by something else. Neighbors also started bringing flowers to Nancy's house, But not to the home, not to the step out to the front. And I'll bet you that as the days go on, we'll start to see more of a makeshift memorial. Something to just honor nancy and to tell nancy, we're here for you. The flowers were yellow. Hope, you know, to signify that there's hope that she'll come home. I remember when I was a kid, Tony orlando and dawn had a song called tie a yellow ribbon round the old oak tree. It's been three long years. Do you still love me? And so that signified coming home, right? Yellow. So the FBI also came to Nancy's house today. And on day 11. This just surprises me. They were searching the front yard, searching the front yard on day 11. On day two, all the searches were called off, but they were back at the front yard, searching around. And then they also searched around the vicinity of the home as well, all around Nancy's home. So searches are sporadic. They keep happening on and off, on and off. It's just, you know, they're not telling us why or what specifically brings them for that particular day. They're just doing it. Okay, now to the glove and the gloves. So the new york post was Shooting video as agents discovered a glove on the side of the road. I don't know if they're sheriff's deputies or if they're FBI. I just know that there was so much searching that was going on along the highways, the sides of the highways. There's video all day long of searchers going out along, looking along the sides of roads. Don't know whether it was a tip, don't know what took them to the roadsides, but something was yielded from, from that work. And the New York Post had video rolling as those agents came across a black glove. And the images are clear. As you know, a bell there. It's a black glove. Looks fairly clean. We are at day 11. So think about that. What would the desert do to the black glove 11 days out? Would a kidnapper or killer throw their gloves out on the side of the road? Maybe. If they're trying to get rid of them without anyone ever seeing and never thinking for a moment, maybe. Would they throw them out on the front lawn? Doubt it. But it was interesting because this discovery was about 1.5 miles away from Nancy Guthrie's home. That single black glove that the New York Post videotaped the agent's or deputies photographing, processing, collecting, discovering. Right. Here's Brian Enten from NewsNation, my friend and colleague formerly from NewsNation and a guy I just have so much respect for. Here he is talking about that discovery.

Brian Entin (28:53)

We have confirmed that FBI teams found a black glove along a roadway about a mile and a half from Nancy Guthrie's home, which is where I'm standing right now, that it was bagged and that it has been taken into evidence. No confirmation that it is connected back to the Nancy Guthrie case, but certainly something very, very interesting. And you can imagine the kind of testing that they're going to be doing on that glove very, very quickly. A lot of other activity here outside the home. Just within the last hour, we saw FBI teams moving through. They were searching the brush across the street from Nancy Guthrie's house. And then they were back at Nancy Guthrie's house again, searching in the yard and searching in the side yard.

Ashley Banfield (29:39)

So it wasn't long after the single black glove was discovered on the side of this roadway that Fox Digital reported. They also knew that a pair of gloves had been found, quote, unquote, in the area. So this is different, and I don't know what in the area means. Trace Gallagher is out in front of Nancy Guthrie's home, and he said in the area. But I don't know if that means right there or 1.5 miles away or near the other glove. But it was a pair very different from the single glove. And again, gloves are the best because you sweat in them and you shed skin cells in them and you pull them off and they pull your skin with them. So they're just usually a spoon of DNA. So, yeah, they're going to test that, they're going to look and they'll put it in a CODIS and see if there's any criminals and then they'll go check them. Right. Maybe we'll see another raid. And I say that because one of the big points of interest that I discuss with Matt Murphy is the raid, the raid that caught a young man completely shocked and his mother in law and his wife and his children put him in cuffs and kept him for hours while they searched his home and then released him. The raid is a fascinating point of discussion in this entire Nancy Guthrie saga and ordeal because the law enforcement authorities are going on the assumption that Nancy Guthrie is alive and needs to be rescued. They've got nothing else to go on otherwise. Right. So if they get a tip that there's a possibility that. Or if they think for a moment that there's a possibility that Nancy Guthrie is being held against her will somewhere in a home or an establishment, they can behave very differently than they would otherwise. If they just want to take a look around or want to ask questions about somebody and. And Matt and I are going to talk about that. We're going to talk about that. Because when you're trying to save someone's life, you don't have to get a warrant. Okay. So this might have been what happened last night. I'll get into the details in a second because that poor mother in law said, I asked them if they had a warrant and they said they don't need one. Raised a lot of eyebrows. And the language that the sheriff used, that raised a lot of eyebrows too. The sheriff said it's a court authorized search, not a search with a warrant. So words matter. I say that because there could be more. As they get tips, clues, information, or they think Nancy might be held somewhere. You might see more of those. You might. So at about 2:55pm today, Brian Entin reported that yet again there was activity at Annie Guthrie's home. Annie Guthrie is Savannah Guthrie's sister. She's married to Tommaso. We've had a lot of conversation about him and we have not seen him for over, well over a week. And we haven't seen, quite frankly, any of the Guthrie's other than the videos that they've released. The siblings, the three siblings. But at 2:55pm Brian Enten reports that these men showed up at Annie Guthrie's home. They were driving an unmarked truck. The truck had yellow lights in the grill, so it looked somewhat law enforcement like. But nobody would answer the question, who are you with? Are you with the sheriff? Are you with the FBI? Are you law enforcement? Those two guys wouldn't answer. They did go inside Annie's home for about 10 to 15 minutes, right? And they emerged wearing. One of them was wearing blue latex gloves.

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Ashley Banfield (34:22)

Another agent was carrying a paper bag from Whole Foods, said Whole Foods on the outside, and also a plastic garbage bag. And then he put that into the unmarked truck and the other agent went over to Annie's mailbox and emptied the mail out and then put that in the truck as well. Just sort of an interesting moment because no, nobody can get confirmation as to who they were. Who were you with? Might, might that they have been private security guards. Good question. And a question I put to Matt Murphy and I did not expect the answer, but it was wise. And that's coming up in just a moment. I mentioned and again, I'm so sorry. I've got this cold. I just feel like I got over one. It was brutal. I lost my voice. And then a week later I get this one again. As soon as I've gotten rid of that one, this one comes back and I have to sneeze and I have to Blow my nose and my eyes are watery. So pardon me. So let's get to the TMZ communique today, because this was just batshit crazy. Taharvey Levin received one of the first alleged ransom emails right from the scum sucking, parasitic lowest form of humanity that is either connected to this crime and is scum sucking lowest form of humanity or isn't and is still lowest form of humanity. And that communique was turned over to the FBI. It asked for $6 million. So it asked for $4 million on a Thursday deadline. And then if that Thursday deadline's missed $6 million on a Monday deadline, those deadlines passed. And to our knowledge, ransom wasn't paid. We don't know. There was some reporting that $6 million went into a bitcoin coin wallet last night, but I haven't seen a lot of other reporting on that. And certainly it hasn't been tied to the Guthrie case. Harvey was actually asked about that on Fox News and said, I'm not comfortable talking about that. But he was also asked about the communique today. And the communique that came in to TMZ was nuts, was absolutely nuts. It says, we know where. I know where Nancy Guthrie is. I've got the information and I'm prepared to give you that information for one bitcoin. And one bitcoin equals about $66,000, give or take the day. What low life does that? What low life does that? FBI is offering 50 grand for tips, but what low life is going to sell the information? Likely a liar. I think Harvey says on Fox News when he's interviewed by John Roberts that the communique says, quote, time is more than relevant. And the sender included an email address and a name. So thank God for the dum dums. I've been telling you all along that I rely very heavily on people who are way smarter in the business of crime than I am. And Matt Murphy is one of those people. There's a reason you see Matt Murphy on Good Morning America and on 2020 and on Nightline. He's one of ABC's go to guys, right? He's a former senior deputy DA in Orange County, California. They see a fair amount of their crime there, right? He successfully prosecuted dozens and dozens of murder cases there, not to mention all the other crimes, too. And he wrote the book on crime, right? Literally. It's called the Book of Murder, A Prosecutor's Journey Through Love and Death. And so I'm going to ask. I'm going to ask Matt a lot about that raid last night and whether we're going to see more of these maybe warrantless raids. Right. And what his thoughts are about it and then his thoughts on all the stuff I just told. Okay, here's my conversation with Matt Murphy and a lot of answers that I wasn't expecting. Matt, there's been so much that went on today, but I want to ask you about something really big. Last night there was this flurry of activity. The bomb squad went out, you know, the SWAT teams went out. And suddenly a door to a home in Rio Rico was battered in and a guy was put in cuffs and called detained. And the sheriff put out an interesting statement. He said there's a court of authorized search. He didn't say there was a warrant. And the woman in the home said she asked for a warrant and was told we don't need one. I sense there were reasons for that and I wanted to get an expert to weigh in on it. And that's you?

Matt Murphy (38:43)

Well, I've been in law enforcement. Well, I've been practicing law for 33 years. I was a DA for 26. I've never heard anything called a court approved search. Never heard that term before. So I don't know where he's getting that. That can be. That's either a search warrant, which doesn't sound like it, or it could be. Could be what's called a Raimi warrant, potentially for the guy. That's what we call it in California. But I think he was driving south for the border, if I'm not mistaken, if I read that correctly.

Ashley Banfield (39:14)

No, the guy was actually. He was actually delivering food for a food delivery service. And the way his mother in law described it, his wife and children were in the car doing a food delivery. And the way the man who was detained described it, his name is Carlos. He said, I saw them following me. I just pulled over. They didn't even have to pull me over. I actually pulled over voluntarily. They approached the car and they threw me down, put me in cuffs and threw me in the back of the car. Weirdly, they also. He also said they didn't speak to me at all, didn't ask me any questions.

Matt Murphy (39:48)

Yeah, you know, look, I want to be fair. I really want to be fair to the sheriff, but working in a vertical unit, it means you've got a lawyer. When we would do murder cases, Ashley, when I was involved in investigation, which is the way it works in Orange county, is you have a prosecutor who's assigned a cert to each city in the county. And so you're working with legal advice with every step of the way. And when you have the person who's going to make the filing decisions that's involved in something like that, really good detectives are loathe to ever put handcuffs on anybody unless either a flight risk, which sometimes you have to do. Which is why I asked, was he heading for the border or you don't want to do that because if that person is related to the case, you want a green light that they're going to stay in custody and you're going to file against them. And if you're not going to file against him, in other words, there is enough evidence. It's just, it's just unnecessarily aggressive. Now, I don't know what they know. I don't know if the tips came from the FBI. It sounds like he's a delivery driver. When I first heard that, I thought, okay, his car was picked up on some sort of reader or he was in the area and they were, and they wanted to look at him. But you can do a knock and talk for that. So like a lot of things, Ashley, that's come from this sheriff. That was a head scratcher to me. A court authorized. A court authorized.

Ashley Banfield (41:20)

Court authorized.

Matt Murphy (41:20)

Whatever he said, I don't know what that means. I mean, if a judge reviews it and they have a right to enter a home, that's what we call a search warrant, so. Or an arrest warrant.

Ashley Banfield (41:30)

So here's here was my guess.

Matt Murphy (41:32)

Either one of those things, I want.

Ashley Banfield (41:33)

To put this guess by you. The video was released and it was harrowing. I mean, honestly, the only way I can describe it is terror in the night. The videos, the images that we saw of this perpetrator, it just, it chilled me and I think it jarred a lot of people. It went out everywhere. I, I, you'd be hard pressed in America to not know about that video, the number of sources where it went out. And the FBI got 4,000 tips after that video. And so my thought is that somebody called in a tip, said something about this poor guy Carlos, and the sheriff took off with those with the heavy guns and that the exigent circumstances of believing they might find Nancy tied up in that basement meant no warrant needed.

Matt Murphy (42:28)

Okay, yeah. So that's not what he said. He said it was court approved or rewards that effect. Right.

Ashley Banfield (42:35)

Court authorized. You know why I think that here's the semantics? Because we have legislation in this country that does allow for that the courts have allowed for this kind of exigent search. Exigent circumstance search. So I almost wondered if it was just fancy language to say the courts allow what, what we did. And I wonder if we're not going to see more of it in this case.

Matt Murphy (42:56)

Yeah, the, the problem with that is that when you kick in a door, if they, if and it's, it is litigated and the court finds hey you, you could have spent the, the two hours to get a warrant here after however many days and that's determined to be unreasonable search and you find a goldmine of evidence and that gets suppressed. You just blown the entire case like the entire case. And imagine that if they go in and they find they kick in a door under an exigency instead of just writing paper on it, which doesn't take that long. Okay. And you got a DA next to you who approves it and it goes to the night judge. Every county has a night judge on duty 24 hour. You know, there's a judge available. You know, we did that on every single case that we did just in case because if you kick the door down and they find a dead body in there and that's, that all of that would get suppressed. So that's, that is kind of worst case scenario. And that's, that's the advantage of a vertical unit where you have a, the actual prosecutor who is sitting there at the table with the detectives working hand in glove without I might add, the last thing you want ever. When you're at three in the morning, when you're, you're the assigned prosecutor and you're working with the, with the actual lead detectives. What you want your leadership to do is give you the support you need and get the, get the f out of the way. And that's, that's, that's what you want. And I don't know what's going on behind the scenes here. And this sheriff may be doing exactly that. I think the basketball game was a pretty bad look, but hopefully he's doing that. But, but you want. This is the advantage of having a prosecutor there who's, who can sign off on that because they write a warrant, the prosecutor can read it, sign it, it goes to the night judge and it comes back. We did that before. We, I mean we had 7, 11 murders where the criminal suspect is going to have zero reasonable expectation of privacy in those premises or the videos. We would do it anyway just because it's just a protective versus reward. You have to act now if she is inside and they have a tip that she's inside, of course saving the life is more important than the case. Right. And under those circumstances, you know, great. But look, the FBI here. The FBI actually, I had the privilege of working a bunch of missing cases with the FBI and they are top notch. Those field agents are some of the most dedicated and smartest law enforcement professionals I ever had the honor of working with. But they're playing a supportive role in this. This is Pima county right now. There's no information. This is a federal case. This is going to be a Pima county prosecution if they ever catch anybody, which is another interesting part. Not to jump ahead here. Ashley, I know you got plenty of questions, but, you know, in Southern California, if you got a body into the Pacific Ocean or you got a body out into the desert, typically we would not find those bodies. And I've personally prosecuted five nobody homicides. And they can be done, but you got to do it right. And you have to make sure that you have a professionally competent investigation. Now, they don't have that many murders in, in, in Tucson especially.

Ashley Banfield (46:09)

Yeah. In the Pima county area. They don't have a lot of violent crime. I think I've been mentioning this a few times. The biggest case they had prior to this might have been Gabby Giffords like 15, 20 years ago.

Matt Murphy (46:17)

This is an experience on homicides really matters. It is very important.

Ashley Banfield (46:22)

And listen, there's been criticism. A former homicide detective with Pima county sheriff told Brian Enten. There's been, you know, a race out of that department in the last five years. And we all know that the police have taken it on the chin for the last five years. That may be a factor here. I don't know, but that there are a lot of experienced people who left the department and that it has backfilled with a lot of inexperienced people. So I just want to know as we go forward, the balance that has to be achieved between the exigency of getting a tip that Nancy might be in someone's basement and then going about it through the magistrate, the night court judge, whoever it is, to get the warrant, as opposed to just racing there, you know, with the SWAT team.

Matt Murphy (47:11)

Yeah, I don't, I didn't like that at all. And, and sometimes as a prosecutor, you got. You'll have a. A very eager detective who means well, who really, you know, and they're dedicated to it. They understand the case. They want to put handcuffs on somebody, and sometimes you got to fight that fight. But at the end of the case when the bad guy's held accountable for what they did and the jury comes back all is forgiven. So that's an internal battle. In a well run department, in a well run county, that happens and it's natural and it's normal. I don't think in 17 years in homicide, I don't think we ever did that. I don't think I ever had my guys kick in a door and arrest somebody and then go, okay, never mind. It's. Ideally, that's just, that's not how, that's not how it's on out again. Even, even when the file, I don't know, all the information and maybe the hot tip was the woman is dying inside.

Ashley Banfield (48:06)

That's what I. So even when a tip might be just so incredibly timely and, and again, the exigency, that's the key word here, is dire. This is why I wonder, going forward in this missing person's case, how many more times might we see this if in those 4,000 tips there's something else that comes out about somebody who somebody believes is holding Nancy?

Matt Murphy (48:32)

Yeah. Look, I personally tried 133 jury trials. When I heard that they arrested somebody, my first thought was they got the guy because there's no way they're, no way they're hooking somebody unless they've got really good information. There's, you know, in my experience, you get a prosecutor sitting at the table with them, it's giving them the green light. That's the way ideally it's supposed to work, but I, I don't. I was surprised when they released him, I got to tell you.

Ashley Banfield (48:59)

Oh, and it was what, a couple hours? You know, he said he was hooked up for two hours before. And here's the weird thing, Matt, I couldn't understand this. Help me navigate. He was very forthcoming. Right. When he did his interviews with the local press, he said, they put me in cuffs, they put me in the back of the car. They kept me for two hours. They hurt my wrists. He's all swollen and he says they didn't ask me anything. They didn't ask me any questions. What is that?

Matt Murphy (49:28)

Well, you know, and I would need more information, but maybe they got, maybe they were able to get his phone and with that information, somehow they were able to geolocate him as not being at the, the door when they, when they knew that happened. But clearly they got some sort of information. Maybe it was inside the house, maybe they got permission to search some sort of computer that, I mean, that was.

Ashley Banfield (49:48)

They took everybody's phones. They took his phone. This is what his mother in law said. At least they took her phone. They took his phone. They took his wife's phone and they took all their chil. The children's phones as well.

Matt Murphy (49:59)

Okay, so what? The FBI has a, FBI has wonderful tools available to them. And one of the things they can do is what's known as an administrative drop warrant. And if you remember my Samantha Runyon case from way back in the day, little girl who got kidnapped. The FBI came in on that. Those agents were fantastic. But also in that case, just to give you an idea, we had the FBI involved within hours because it was an abduction. And that's really what the FBI is really good at. That. I don't know how long it took in this, and maybe, you know, longer.

Ashley Banfield (50:34)

Than most people think is appropriate. There's been a lot of criticism that they weren't. That the feds were left out of the fold for too long.

Matt Murphy (50:40)

Yeah, that's a. And I don't know the timeline. And again, I'm relying on you for that now. You're relying on other people's information. That's a frigging problem. Like, like this is an all hands on deck situation. And you, you bring in all the resources you have available. And the thing is, is that they appeal to the public very quickly. As you recall, every time you do that, it is, it's, it's a semi desperate move because you get, you get, you essentially get three groups of people coming forward. You get, well meaning folks that really want to help. And they tell you about, hey, I heard screams down, but maybe it was my neighbor's wife again, or I heard weird noises and it's the raccoons in the trash can. You got to sift through those and you got to devote resources to every single one of those. Then you've got your loans, you got the people that are coming out. It's like, you know, it was the vampires. I know. And that's an element every time you appeal to the public. And I think the third group is, you know, I think in the modern day, Ashley. And this is, this is terrible, but I think we now have scammers who are going to come in and go, give me money. Right. They already arrested a guy in Hawthorne, California, you know, and I think that's. I don't know how many scam phone calls you get a day, Ashley, but I probably get, I, I don't know if these, if the spams are all also scams, but I get half a dozen of those a day.

Ashley Banfield (52:00)

A day, easily.

Matt Murphy (52:01)

And, you know, when you, when you're some of that stuff, some of the Langu language in that was that we want American dollars. That's a, that's a. That sounds like the guy that I talked to at Christmas that somehow, for some reason I answered. And it was like, hey, your. Your state bar license is in jeopardy. Just give us all your information. And that guy definitely was not. Was not from the United States or at least his accent, you know, so that, that seems to be a third. A third group. And by the way, I can't think of anything lower or more parasitic than somebody trying to make money on the backs of Savannah Guthrie and her family. And that is the lowest of the low.

Ashley Banfield (52:45)

And I look in their time of horror, right in what they're going through to add this layer onto it of trying to extort them.

Matt Murphy (52:53)

It's infuriating to me. That's. That's a subhuman thing. And I think. I think that the person who benefits most from that is the killer. Because the resources have to be devoted to that. And that brings the family in and you have to treat them like they're real because in the 1% chance that they are. By the way, I don't think any of these are real in this case myself, just my opinion. But you have to devote resources to that. And I think they shall be prosecuted as accessories after the fact murder. I really do. I think they should be.

Ashley Banfield (53:25)

Wow, is that possible?

Matt Murphy (53:28)

That's. I sure think so. I think there's some laws that you pass maybe, that maybe some good will come out of this and they'll stiffen the laws. There are independent laws like, hey, if you get. Give us money or we're gonna. We're gonna kill somebody. Which is what they all did. That is. That's extortion. So that will have its. That's a separate crime and its own punishment. But I think that some, some legislatures need to come together here and catch up to the modern era of absolutely ubiquitous scamming in America and probably the world. And I think, you know, when they catch like this guy in Hawthorne, he should be just me here. And I'm not, I'm not on this case, so I can express an emotion or two. That guy should be friggin hammered in my view. And they, and they FBI should devote resources to tracking every one of these people down that tries to take advantage of it. And like I said, I hope I'm wrong. But I think, I think every one of these things is fake. They took too long to do it. It makes no sense. I. And look, Ashley, also, I've been saying this all along. So I might as well say, say it here. I've, I've always believed this was a body removal, that she, you know, that she was dead inside the house. And you know, when you have blood like that. And this is through my twisted, very jaundiced lens of the cases that I worked on. But I've, you know, I, I, one of the nobodies I, I did was a man named Pete Terrio, Vietnam vet, wonderful person who got murdered by his girlfriend. Her name was Judy Velad. And she got him out of, out of his house in Irvine. She was like a 110 pound woman, and he was like a 220 pound guy and she dragged him out. And the blood drops from that scene just in my head, it was almost flashbacks. They, it even looked like the same tiles to me. And I don't know that that's sheer speculation by me, but there's just so many things about this case that don't add up with the, with the kidnapping narrative. And again, I hope I'm wrong, I hope, I pray I'm wrong and that this poor lady is found, but it's not looking good.

Ashley Banfield (55:31)

So, I mean, I'm fascinated to hear that there might be some possibility that legislation could come out of this, because I do sense that we're in a new age of these parasites upping their scam game to this kind of thing. It's an unusual circumstance, clearly, with, you know, Savannah being high profile, but it's not the last time a high profile person's going to be a victim of crime. But let's talk a little bit about something that the FBI released yesterday, that it took me a little bit to digest it, and I finally sort of figured it out today. One of the images shows the guy not wearing the backpack and not carrying the gun. All the images and the video show this backpack that's overstuffed and the gun that's, you know, very awkwardly placed in the front of his crotch, which is a very strange place to carry a gun in a holster, and a strange holster at that. But then one of the images shows he's got no backpack and no gun. And I am flummoxed A, by why the FBI would give us that image without any context, and B, what you think that is, is that prior to the initial walk up with the backpack, is it after, what are your thoughts about that?

Matt Murphy (56:40)

Well, look, she's 84 years old, and the, the thing that struck me first is what, why is the gun in his waistband? And I mean, that's Anybody who's familiar with firearms, it's called, it's basically an appendix carry, but that is, that's a good way to blow off a part of your body that you're not, you don't want to lose.

Ashley Banfield (57:04)

He's unskilled, he's not a pro.

Matt Murphy (57:06)

That's all I get is either really amateurish or, or it struck me as something that he wanted the camera potentially to see it. Also to wear a balaclava like that and the gloves, that was also striking to me. But the backpack is what jumped out the most, Ashley, because. And this is again, look, before I was in homicide, I spent four years in sexual assault. And that is a, that's a place where you're, your head can get pretty twisted. There's a thing in law enforcement and murder investigations known as a rape kit. I'm sure you've heard of that before, where serial rapists will come prepared, they'll have duct tape, they'll have things to bind with. That backpack was stuffed. And I had the same question you did. It's on, it's off. I don't know. I don't know. And I should probably say that as well. Look, I've had cases where, you know, like my, my Tom and Jackie Hawks case out of Newport. I was watching the interview of Scholar De Leon. The guy was such a good liar. I'm sitting there going, well, I guess I'm doing the loops on my own head going, maybe that kind of makes sense. And the detectives were like, don't be an idiot, it's not real. And they were exactly right. And I mean, I'm kind of embarrassing myself by saying this, but same thing on my Daniel Wozniak case he set up. That was a guy who murdered his, his war vet neighbor that's got some media and then staged that scene, lured another poor innocent young woman named Julie Kibiushi, murdered her and framed the, his first murder victim for it to make it look like he'd done it. And I am in there going, okay, well this is pretty obvious. This is a dispute between the two of them. And again, different police department. The detectives were like, nope, this is not right. And they were absolutely right. So that, that gut, that gut of the police. But in both of those cases, Ashley, one of the things that is very different than this one, those were grizzled hardcore multi year homicide detectives that had been on the job for 10, 15 years and they'd seen it all. And so they developed that gut. My understanding with the average in the PIMA county homicide unit is less than two years experience. And I'm not criticizing the, the, the rank and file police officers at all because the politics, the exodus, that is not their fault. But experience really does matter. So look, when I saw that backpack I thought this is, that, that is a rape kid. And people think, well, she's 84 years old. That's too old. That's not too old. That is not too old. First case I ever worked on as a junior law clerk was a woman named Mary ward, who's a 79 year old Jehovah's Witness, who, it was very similar circumstance. Guy broke in in her house in the middle of the night, raped her. She went into rape trauma syndrome and died 31 days later.

Ashley Banfield (59:54)

So in another, do those kinds of criminals take the person with them?

Matt Murphy (60:00)

Typically that's the thing that is so unusual here. So, so no, they don't usually it's sloppy, it's drunken, it is, it's ham fisted when they go in. But one of the big red herrings on this case that I think has thrown a lot of, a lot of the commentators off and a lot of the commentary I've seen on this has been excellent. Brian Enten, you mentioned, I think has done a phenomenal job. Josh Ritter, phenomenal. Jesse Weber, phenomenal. I've been really impressed with the coverage and pretty much everybody but the, one of the, one of the key things here, people have been thrown off a little bit by the idea that her pacemaker was still communicating with her Apple Watch. Pacemakers continue to send that signal even if the person is dead. And as morbid as that is, so that the fact that her pacemaker was still working does not mean that she was alive when she left the house. I pray to God she was and she still is. But that is, you know, and then I don't know there. You have to be able to get creative in situations like this. And that's where experience comes in. And one of the questions that I had right off the bat was can't they get like a helicopter and have that Apple watch or her iPhone and fly? Looking for a connection, you know, because the pacemaker right now, wherever she is, it is still on and it is still working. Those things continue to work until the battery dies. And it's a big, it's a big deal in funeral homes for anybody.

Ashley Banfield (61:34)

And it will still reach out to the iPhone.

Matt Murphy (61:36)

Yeah, no, I don't know the distance, I don't know how far away it has to be. But yeah, there it is still her Pacemaker is still transmitting a signal. So I don't know if that has to be, you know, if that has to be 3ft away or if that is, if it's type thing that it can travel a mile. I don't, I don't know the answer to that question. But I do know her pacemaker right now as we speak is still, is still zapping away.

Ashley Banfield (62:02)

That's, I never thought of that. You know, if those, you know, those deputies who are going or they could be agents, I don't know if they're sheriff or they're FBI. There's both at work. They've been going door to door. They have been walking and wandering and spending a lot of time, you know, on foot in the area. Do you think it's possible they might be doing that?

Matt Murphy (62:21)

Well, no. That's what's known as a canvas and that is something that you, you always do. It's.

Ashley Banfield (62:27)

Couldn't you have Nancy's phone on you to see if it connects to the pacemaker?

Matt Murphy (62:31)

See, I, I, I've never, I've never had a missing with a pacemaker quite like this. So that, that could certainly be something that they could do. Maybe you can somehow clone it. I would be very interested in trying to take advantage of that technology, but I, again, I don't know the answers to those questions. The FBI certainly would. But one of the, with all of the media that's been on this case, Ashley, the, the one thing I haven't heard of is helicopters and, and maybe it just be means that I just haven't seen that report. But you know, there, there's a, we used to do we have a, there's a helicopter, they named it Duke in Orange county and it's the Regional Air Command where, and they, there's different cities that contract. It's the police helicopter. And one of the things you get to do as a DA, which is kind of fun is you get to do ride alongs in the helicopter. And I did a couple of those and they have a thing called flirtation that I'm sure you've heard of and that's, it's called forward looking infrared. And it's like these war videos that you see. It's the black and white images where they can see a heat signature. And I don't know if they did that or not. I, in looking through the immediate area and look every investigation.

Ashley Banfield (63:39)

Well, Matt, here's the problem. This search was called off 30 hours after she was reported missing on Monday. You know, the sheriff said that the Search was called off and was called off permanently unless or until, you know, the situation warrants, which we were all really bewildered by. I mean, at the very least, they're searching her front yard today. You know, agents showed up at Nancy's house today and searched her front yard and the vicinity around the house. And we're at day 11.

Matt Murphy (64:09)

Yeah. And I think that was FBI at her house today, if not mistaken. Right.

Ashley Banfield (64:12)

Yeah.

Matt Murphy (64:13)

So, and let's, let's not forget. And again, I want to be fair. I want to be fair. I've, I've had those high profile cases before and there's, I never liked it when a talking head criticized any of my guys. And so now I'm a talking head. Right. But they returned that scene in less than two days.

Ashley Banfield (64:32)

It was 30 hours. I mean, honest to God, it was Monday. By 6 o' clock Monday, that scene was returned to the family and Nancy was reported missing at 11:56, I want to say am the morning before on Sunday.

Matt Murphy (64:51)

Yeah, I. Look, mistakes are made in every homicide investigation. And as a criminal defendant has a right to a fair jury trial. Nobody has a right to a perfect investigation or nobody would ever be convicted of murder. Okay? So I want to say that mistakes get made. It's not, that's, none of that is necessarily fatal. However. Come on, man, 30 hours, that's, that is, that is insanity in my view. And again, just my opinion here, and I know they, they went back, but you know, you've had crime scenes, Ashley, where we've had, we've processed them three or four times. Where you send, you know, the, the investigation will develop and then you, you send, you send your team back in to swab. Hey, maybe there was, it looks like maybe they stole this. And so you, you swab areas that you didn't know when you first went in. So you keep, you keep the premises for a while and she by herself. It's not like there was a family that needed to get inside. This is right.

Ashley Banfield (65:51)

Like the Idaho case, you know, 1122 King Road was a crime scene for months upon months. And even after it wasn't a crime scene, it was walled off and no one was able to, you know, that also, you know, tells me about today's report. There was a glove that was found on the side of the road a mile and a half from Nancy's house. One of the black gloves. That's similar to as seen in the video. And then after that, Fox Digital reported that a pair of gloves was found in the area. That's all I can tell you I don't know more than that, but, I mean, that's.

Matt Murphy (66:20)

That's shocking right now that there's always a glove found. Actually, every time you look, there are. There's always a. When you get into the garden, there are gloves everywhere. And it's a. It's a weird feature. There's gardening gloves, there's workers gloves. You know, I was in Central park last week. Despite the cold, there's one mitten everywhere you go. There's. There's gloves. Okay, so when you.

Ashley Banfield (66:42)

I just find it weird that they're finding it 11 days later that should have been found. I mean, you know, within the first few days, ideally.

Matt Murphy (66:51)

But when you're. When you're doing that and you're collecting that information as a prosecutor, when, like, when you send people in to. And you got a search. But that gives me almost like Vietnam flashbacks to all the times we found gloves that weren't related to the case. And then the defense, Defense comes in every single time, and it's like, look at the DNA in this glove. It's not my client. This is the real killer. So you're. You're. You're handing nuggets to the defense. It's supposed to be thoroughly searched. That's something that the lawyers at trial, if they ever get a suspect in charge, somebody will have to navigate through. But, you know, there are. There's the investigation. It's like the beginning of law and order right there. There are two equal parts. The investigation, the prosecution, they got to be mindful of that. And I haven't. I don't know where the DA For Pima county is. I would expect that he would be up on that stage. I would think.

Ashley Banfield (67:43)

Haven't seen him.

Matt Murphy (67:44)

Agency or her agency would be responsible for taking that baton and getting justice in the case if they ever get a suspect. And I don't know what's going on with that.

Ashley Banfield (67:53)

Let me ask you something else. I'm super fixated on that Ozark Trail hiker backpack like you mentioned, because now the whole world has zeroed in on it, and it's something that you can see in a Walmart, but that's all we have in terms of video. And it seems as though they must have a lot more because they've given us a still shot without the backpack on and without the gun. So it feels like there's a lot more video that we haven't seen. Kash Patel was on Hannity and said, I mean, this really st. This stood out to me. When Kash Patel said this. We were able to exploit information pursuant to our private sector partner engagement that showed us that there might be persons of interest in and around the area related to this event. Our priority is to find Nancy. And of course, right behind that is to find anyone and any others involved in this kidnapping. And yet we see video with one person, and Kash Patel says, persons of interest. What do you make of that?

Matt Murphy (68:52)

That's right.

Ashley Banfield (68:53)

And.

Matt Murphy (68:53)

And look, this is a. This is a driveway. And they. And you're right, they've got. You know, they. I. I guarantee there's some. Some group of FBI agents, probably as we speak, that are going through every video for miles around Pima county, every potential route, every Circle K gas station, every, you know, gas and sip. They're going through all of those things, trying to find.

Ashley Banfield (69:18)

And in the modern era, he's saying this. Cash Patel is saying this right after they've released this single person on the doorbell cam. Right. And he's saying, you know, there might be persons of interest in and around the area related to this event. And, of course, right behind finding Nancy are priorities that find anyone and any others involved in this kidnapping. It just sort of stood out to me that he's talking in plural right after they're releasing a video of a singular image.

Matt Murphy (69:49)

That's right. And another thing just to remember, you know, Kash Patel was a criminal lawyer for a long time, and that is a. That you're. You're right to pick up on that. And I. And I think that that is a. If that's a point of precision by, you know, love him or hate him, he's a smart guy, and he has a lot of experience in criminal law. So that's. Yeah, they may. They may very well have information that somebody else might have been driving a car. I hope so, because, you know, if this is some. And. And it could be anything right now, but if this is some sort of rapist or serial killer, you know, they tend to act alone. Not always, but they certainly tend to act alone. If there's another person in driving a car, then that kind of. That potentially adds, you know, fuel to the idea that maybe this really is a kidnapping and, you know, maybe there's some hope against hope that this poor lady is still alive, although I. I am very skeptical of that.

Ashley Banfield (70:48)

So, you know, there's been a lot of attention on Annie Guthrie's house yet again today. There were. It's hard to describe whether they were agents or whether they were bodyguards. And the reporters who were there could not Tell. All they could tell was that these are people who dressed like the FBI, but did not have sidearms, did not have insignia, were in unmarked vehicles, but a vehicle had yellow lights in the grill. These two guys went into Annie Guthrie's house and then emerged with blue gloves, blue latex gloves on, carrying a plastic. White plastic bag and a Whole Foods paper bag. Put that into the vehicle, then went to Annie Guthrie's mailbox and cleared out the mail, and then put that into the vehicle and drove off and wouldn't speak to anybody on the premises. What does that say to you?

Matt Murphy (71:35)

Well, I saw that video, too. I mean, they look like cops to me. And that very well could be FBI, could be another federal agency. You know, the. The border patrols brought into this right at the very beginning. But look, every case like this, you know, this is a. It's a whodunit. It's a. You know, I mean, first it's a. What is it? But I think it's pretty clear, you know, tragically, with every second that ticks by on the clock, that this is a homicide case, and then it becomes a whodunit. And the way you handle these is you. You start in the people closest. And you and I have talked about this before in other cases, you start with the people closest, and you expand the ring, and you methodically and systematically eliminate every single person in her immediate orbit, then her next immediate orbit, and you go through family. And that's a part of the process. Doesn't mean anybody had anything to do with it. But you have to go through. And go through cell phones, go through. Look at geolocation, you look at cell phone towers, and it's. It's very labor intensive, but they have the resources now that the FBI is involved, and they're very, very good at that. Then you go to the pool guy and to the. And I'm not suggesting anybody.

Ashley Banfield (72:47)

No, no, but they've said they've taken the DNA from all contractors.

Matt Murphy (72:50)

Yeah, that's right. Every contractor, every gardener in the area. Not just her house, but. But the neighbors, the pool guys, the. The neighbor's pool guys, the roof guys. You. You do that, and you. You systematically and very carefully, methodically eliminate everybody you can. And you just keep broadening the circle, Right? The way you prosecute these cases in court, you do the same thing, but in reverse. You know, when it's a whodunit, you start out with the population of the earth. And we can eliminate. Okay, so every. Everybody's a suspect. Okay, we can eliminate everybody who wasn't in the state of Arizona. And then we can eliminate everybody who wasn't in Tucson. Then we can eliminate everybody who has no apparent connection or knowledge of this woman. And you. And that's, you know, I've, you, I've prosecuted cases that way before. And that's. Yeah, that's how you do it. And that's. And I, I think that they're methodically going through that. So whoever those guys were. And look, I didn't, I didn't notice that it was a Whole Foods bag. But, you know, the plastic evidence bags of CNTV are a little misleading paper, for whatever reason, when it's breathable, it is more forensically sound a lot of times to put biological evidence in, in paper bags for, for proper testing than plastic. So that, you know, that struck me when I saw the paper bag in that video, that that was just kind of your typical evidence collection.

Ashley Banfield (74:10)

No, it's Whole Foods. But you know, you never know whether it was a bag that existed in the house as is and they were bringing it up. But I would think they put the bag in a bag if that were the case. It's just an unusual thing to see. To see.

Matt Murphy (74:23)

Yeah, very well. Might have been, might have been a evidence bag with evidence written on it. And they, they knew everybody is going to be watching, so they grabbed a Whole Foods bag, which would be good police work if they did.

Ashley Banfield (74:33)

It's a good point. It's a good point. Okay, last question. And that's about. Harvey Levin gets another communication today. This one is different, comes from a different address. It has a bitcoin wallet that is a different number than the first. And this person is asking something totally different, suggesting that they know the whereabouts of Nancy and that they're prepared to give that information for one bitcoin, which is around $66,000. Yeah, give or take the day. But they included Matt, an email address and a name. So when will we be seeing that person in cuffs?

Matt Murphy (75:11)

You know, that's somebody that, That's a door I'd like to see kick down, actually, because I'm. Wherever, wherever that person lives. This poor woman is not inside that house. Yeah, that's just, for lack of a better term, that's just awful. Right. That's another person who's attempting to profit from the grief of these people. And if that's real, if they actually did have evidence, you don't have an obligation, believe it or not, if you have information to cooperate, but as soon as you do something like that, you are now directly interfering because they have to. They have to go interview you. And that is a crime. If you.

Ashley Banfield (75:49)

So what's that? Tell me, what is that crime? Is that, is that interference? It's obstruction.

Matt Murphy (75:55)

It's obstruction of justice if you, if you don't have that. If you don't have information like that, and now they've got it, you are asking for money in exchange for information. They have to devote resources to that. They're going to have to devote officers. They're going to have to track you down. That is invaluable. Time, energy, and resources devoted to your greed and your attempt to profit from the most apoplectic grief that another, another human being could ever experience. You're. You're not a human. If you do that, and you deserve to be hammered. Just me. My opinion here alone.

Ashley Banfield (76:29)

No, I've said it to fullest extent of the law. I think 20 years wouldn't be enough for someone like that who put somebody through that kind of pain and trauma. I, I want to ask you this. A lot of people who are watching the case, who don't work in the business that you work in or that I work in have said, well, this is stalling. We're only on day 11. I mean, you've worked cold cases for years. I've seen cold cases solved after 30 years. I certainly don't think 11 days is very long, not for a case like this. I wanted to get your thoughts about those who think that. Well, we don't have anybody yet. We don't seem to have any announcements or any news conferences. They must be going nowhere.

Matt Murphy (77:09)

You know, I. Look, I put this in my book. I was in the cold case unit for about 15 of my 17 years. I was one of the deputies who was assigned to the cold case unit. My brother, alcoholic case. We were prosecuting murders from mid-70s. Actually, you know, we. I was, I worked on a case from 1968. So cold case is a misnomer. Just the entire term in the sense that there's no, there's no statute of limitations on murder cases in any state in America. There's no statute of limitations, which means those cases are. They're never closed. They are. They're always. They're always active. Now, again, want to be fair here, but, you know, as. As not flash, as they would say, I think the sheriff has been. And the mistakes that he's made, he's not gonna be around forever. This is gonna be. This case will be investigated for years and years and years. And look what just happened last night. They. They released this image, I hope that it, that it just took a while because of course they're going to get thousands of tips and they have to chase every one of those down. The FAO FBI has the resource to do that again. Remember, the three groups you're going to have the people who just really want to help, and they're, they're, they're in good faith providing information. You've got your crazies, and I guarantee they got hundreds of those. And then you got, you got Harvey Levin's friend, you know, who wants a bitcoin. The criminals, that's just part of the modern landscape. And they brought in more FBI agents. I think last night, I think they, I think I read 200 new FBI agents. If I, if I got that right.

Ashley Banfield (78:52)

I've heard, I've heard 100, I've heard 200, and then I've heard the full force of the, you know, federal government and the law and whatever is needed. So who knows if it's, you know, it can ebb and flow as well, depending on what's happening in the days and the weeks and the shifts. Right.

Matt Murphy (79:04)

Yeah, that's right. And, and they, but they've got, they're, they're going to work it. And the FBI, like I said, they're the, the, the rank and file agents are absolutely wonderful and they're really smart and a lot of people don't know, so a lot of them went to law school, so they're not that, that makes you smart, trust me.

Ashley Banfield (79:23)

Makes you smarter, I'll tell you that much.

Matt Murphy (79:25)

Well, it means you, at least you have the academic discipline to stand school for seven years. So they, they, and pass the bar. They are, they are the, in my opinion, they're some of the best law enforcement that exists. They're smart, they're dedicated, they're tireless. I, I really have a very high opinion of the FBI agents that I, I worked with. And I, I, you know, for better or worse, I, I worked on many cases where we had to bring in the FBI. And you know, I had good experiences with them every time. So hopefully the locals, again, this is a state case, are treating them right. I have no doubt that the rank and file detectives in Pima county are, I hope that their brass is doing the same thing, the brass being their leadership. I hope, and I hope that behind the scenes we were seeing more confidence than we've seen in front of those cameras. Very tough job to be up there. The questions can be tough, but yeah, I just, honestly, actually, that basketball game pissed Me off. That was a bad look, I think.

Ashley Banfield (80:29)

You'Re not the only. You're not the only one.

Matt Murphy (80:31)

But that's not, that's not good leadership. That, that undermines, that undermines the public confidence in the competence and professionalism of law enforcement. And that's, that's not good for anybody. So. Well, listen, hopefully that's a, that's a lesson well learned. I know that's why he hasn't done a press conference since then, because somebody's going to hit him with that. Yeah. And look, I don't know him. He may be a wonderful guy. I, as you know, I defend police officers professionally now. A large part of my practice is defending police officers. So I've got a, I've got a soft spot for cops that make mistakes and get in trouble. But, you know, come on, dude. The whole country is losing sleep over this. Well, Hope entertainment.

Ashley Banfield (81:13)

So hope springs eternal for me. I'm, I'm still, I'm not only hoping for some kind of legal resolution on this. I'm hoping that Nancy is alive and that we see one of those remarkable images like Elizabeth Smart returned to Ed and Lois Smart. I, I still hope for something like that because I do believe that we all need it as a country. We need it.

Matt Murphy (81:33)

Yeah, that's right. I've had quite a crazy cases where I am like those two I told you about. I'm convinced it's one way and it turns out to be something completely different. So, you know, if there's one thing that got. Got knocked into my head over all those years was you got to keep an open mind. Never, never key in too closely on one theory because you may be completely wrong. And, and I've, I've seen it, I've lived it. And, and so there is, there is still hope. I'm skeptical, but I'm, I'm as jealous as they come.

Ashley Banfield (82:06)

And who knows if that was the case early on with the news that I got, they were keyed in. And maybe that's changing. So far it hasn't. My source hasn't said anything different. Otherwise, who knows? But we're certainly seeing this investigation going in a lot of different, you know, in a lot of different directions. Matt, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your wisdom and, and that you're just so, you know, magnanimous with your time and your.

Matt Murphy (82:28)

Oh, any time for you and your health. I love, I love the show. Love your fan base, too. Everybody has been all of your, all of your followers. Like, everybody's hit me up on Instagram has been really nice on the different appearances, so I'm so glad as a resource. Unfortunately, my. My opinions and my thoughts may be worth every penny you pay for it, which is nothing. So. Yeah. And look, I. Like I said, I just. I hope I'm wrong about everything on this one, so.

Ashley Banfield (82:55)

Always love talking to you. Thanks, Matt.

Matt Murphy (82:57)

Thank you so much.

Ashley Banfield (82:57)

Okay, so here we are, day 11. Man, I think we all feel the same way. I think we all go to bed at night. And even if you're agnostic or atheist, you're praying for Nancy Guthrie's safe return. Number one, I cannot imagine if this was my mother. I cannot imagine what this family is going through. Right? I cannot imagine what they're going through knowing that the investigators are in their homes, too. It's just compounding a very, very sad and frantic story. And each day, there just seems to be a slate of these developments that kind of yank your chain one way or the other, right? But in the end, what Kash Patel said is true. The number one priority is to find Nancy. And then after that, the priority is to find the fuckers that did this and then throw the book at them. And if Nancy is dead, I hope it's death penalty. Thank you, everyone, for listening and watching. Thank you, everybody for being a part of this podcast. And I always say this, and it couldn't be more true. The truth isn't just serious, it is drop dead serious.