E (6:11)

Machine was just like that thing you.

A (6:12)

Have at the bank that counts money. You know, it's kind of the size of a bread box. But this thing was massive. These shuffling machines are huge and super duper shady, illegal. Just shuffles the hands that you want, right? It doesn't shuffle anything. It creates. So the Feds confiscated this stuff and they sent out these pictures. And I, for one, am happy. I'm really happy. I love seeing this stuff for reals, right? Irl, because you see it in the movies and then you see what it really looks like in real life. So they also had like poker chip trays with electronics inside them that could help read cards. I don't know how that worked, but they said they did. They also had dummy cell phones that could also read cards. Again, don't know how, but it did. And then in a scheme right out of Ocean's Eleven, they drew these invisible marks on the back of the playing cards, right, that could only be seen by the con artist who was wearing the special contact lenses. Holy. I was always like, totally sus. The guys who wear the dark glasses at the table, you know, ostensibly they're wearing dark glasses because they don't want anybody to see them. They don't have a good poker face. But now I'm like, bullshit. You have like those Cracker Jack cereal box glasses that can see through things, right? That's my description, not the FBI's. So that all is the high tech part of the boondoggle. The low tech part was filled in by the old school mob tactics involving four of the five major New York City crime families, which in itself is bewildering because let's face it, you do not often hear about the Bonannos and the Gambinos and the Lucchese's and the Genoveses all playing in the sandbox, well together. But that's what the FBI says here. Four out of five. The Columbos were Not.

E (8:16)

So victims who.

A (8:17)

Lost big at those tables and then owed big to the swindlers, they then faced the goons, you know, the guys in the fedoras in the back alley, who physically made those victims pay up, if you know what I mean. And so that's the poker side of the gambit. You got the sports and you got the poker. So let me talk about the sports scam. Now, the feds say that players and coaches faked injuries and then leaked inside information about who was going to play that night and who wasn't going to play that night. And everybody involved in that racket would then make millions laying their bets. Let's start with the bold face names, and then I'm going to tell you all the bad things that they allegedly did. If you are into sportsball, you are going to recognize these names. Terry Rosier, he's a current guard with the Miami Heat. He's in his 10th season. He's charged with faking injuries so that gamblers could bet on how low his nightly scoring tally would be. Right, because they do bet on this stuff. Like, what are your points going to be? Are they over, under, you know? And so police said that more than $200,000 was bet and paid out after one of these injury schemes. A guy named Chauncey Billups is a Hall of Fame player, but now a suspended head coach of the Portland Trailblazers. Cops say that he was enlisted to sit at those big stakes illegal poker tables in New York City and help make those games look legit. And then there is Damon Jones. He spent 12 years in the NBA before retiring in 2009. He is accused of tipping off the gamblers to inside information while at the same time acting as an unofficial coach for the LA Lakers. Let me get a little more specific for you. And for this, you're really going to need a drink. He specifically allegedly tipped off the mob that a superstar player was injured and wasn't going to play that night. So, yeah, I'm with you. Who, like who? Who's the superstar? I want to know. I know you do, too. But the feds decided they weren't going to name that superstar. Instead, they gave us a big fucking breadcrumb. They noted that one LeBron James was too hurt to play at that time. And incidentally, Damon Jones spent years playing with LeBron James when they were in Cleveland together. Nobody is suggesting that LeBron James had anything to do with this. Again, super important to note that they're naming other names who were talking about LeBron James specifically. Damon Jones. So did Damon Jones do this? Did Terry Rosier do this? Did Chauncey Billups do this? And how about all those people in New York with the high tech, you know, spy gear to rig those games? What does it all mean? And where is this going? Those are the questions that get me on the phone with Mark Garagos. He's a renowned criminal defense attorney and co host of the podcasts Reasonable Doubt and Two Angry Men. And here's our conversation.

E (11:30)

Garagos, did I lay that out according to the way you read the indictments? And if so, is this as massive as it seems to little old me?

C (11:41)

Yes, you did. You did not go all Stephen A. Smith, who has a Trump conspiracy theory connected to this as well. But for those who don't know this, this investigation, this FBI investigation, investigation has been going on for years and it started in a very unlikely way. And it actually started in connection with baseball and it's made its way over to basketball. You have. The one thing I would disagree with is I remember the invisible ink on card scam from years ago. The others I had not heard of. So I was the opposite of.

F (12:19)

You.

C (12:21)

Knew about the invisible ink but did not know about the sophisticated card shuffling operation. But boy, if anything will cure you of gambling quick, this would be it.

A (12:34)

I think so.

E (12:35)

And I'm with you. I think there were things in my Cracker Jack box that I could read with glasses, but I just hadn't heard that they'd, you know, they'd advance to contact lenses. That was spooky AF if you ask me. I want to ask you something that, you know, the feds, as you know, they don't go after cases unless they truly believe, believe they're 99% rock solid convictions. So is this bad? Like, there's a lot of fans out there who are freaking out and hoping that these guys are going to beat the rap.

A (13:02)

Are they?

C (13:04)

Well, look, the, if you take a look, statistically, as you just said, the feds generally win almost virtually every case. It's one of the reasons we talked for months, if not almost a year or so about Diddy's case because that was such a heavy lift and such an outlier. Normally, if there's a federal case, 90 some 90 something percent end in some kind of a plea of the remaining percentage that go to trial. It's rare that anybody ever hears a not guilty in a federal criminal defense case. And there's just so many things against you. So my guess is if this is like every other federal criminal case what will happen is there will be a rush for the prosecutor's door. One of those defendants will roll over, cooperate against somebody else, and that will start a domino effect. That is exactly the playbook that is used in the federal arena. And that's. I have no reason to believe it wouldn't happen here.

A (14:12)

Okay.

E (14:12)

There's one thing that was so ironic in the last 12 hours. One of my producers is big sports fan and noticed that ESPN was reporting on this story while at the same time they were advertising in the lower part of the screen, one of those betting apps. And I'm sort of curious from a legal perspective how complicated this makes things with regard to betting apps and the real close relationship now they have with reporting sports and maybe playing sports.

C (14:43)

Well, take a look at, if you will. It's interesting because that was the first thing that I thought of the amount of money that the betting apps and the betting companies, the gambling spends in terms of advertising, promotion, everything around pro sports. Now, this is bound to happen, and it's a natural consequence of all, all of that money there. You can, you can believe also that if, if, and it's unlikely just because of the pure percentages, but if somebody makes it to trial, that arguably will be one of the defenses. Is that. What are you talking about? How are you going to criminalize something and send somebody away, so to speak, when the entire league and the prosperity of the league, and not just this league, but most of sports, is now almost 50% dependent on the revenues from the gambling sites and the gambling apps.

E (15:43)

Yeah, that doesn't make me feel good.

A (15:44)

I'm not a gambler, but I just.

E (15:46)

Don'T like to see people scammed. I mean, I do a true crime show.

A (15:49)

I'm all about the victims.

E (15:50)

I do have a question about the, what I think is like the world's second oldest profession, you know, cheating at gambling and cheating at stuff, sports, this is not going away. Is this cat and mouse game just constantly on the escalation wheel? Meaning the criminals are getting better with their contact lenses and the feds are getting better with the way to track them.

C (16:12)

Well, that's also a really interesting point. When I started practicing criminal defense law, which has gone on, I hate to say it, almost five decades ago, there were actually prosecutors, prosecutions for bookmaking. You actually would walk into the criminal courts building and there were people who were being prosecuted criminally for bookmaking. That kind of evaporated as these things went offshore. You'll remember, you and I are both unfortunately old enough to remember when the gambling sites were operated offshore. Well then that evolved into now. They became mainstream and then they became huge advertisers and then they became the revenue stream by which they're monetized by all of these leagues. So yes, I just think that part of the inextricable DNA of sports is that anytime you have this kind of a competition at this kind of a level, there is that urge to gamble or bet on it or wager on it, and that's always going to be the case.

A (17:13)

So I also had a chance to talk to two other guys who, who have become friends of my show on News Nation. Shout out, 10 o' clock Eastern Monday to Friday. It's called Banfield. Check it out. These two guys happen to be well known in the world of organized crime because they were former mobsters. Michael Francis was a longtime capo with the Colombo crime family. He's now an author who has worked with the NCAA and professional sports to help prevent these gambling troubles. And Sammy the Bull Gravano, I almost don't need to introduce him. You know, he was a one time underboss from the Gambino family, but he now helps debunk the inner workings of his former profession. And his amazing podcast is called Our Thing and it's available Everywhere and on YouTube. And wait until you hear what Sammy the Bull, who you know was nicknamed the Rat when he turned state's evidence in his cases, right? Wait until you hear what he has to say about anyone in this case who flips and turns state evidence. Here is my conversation with former mobsters Michael Francis and Sammy the Bull Gravano.

E (18:27)

I guess it's a pretty simple question. Does any of this, what I just reported and all the other headlines that go with it, does it surprise you?

F (18:35)

Not at all. Ashley, I gotta tell you, that was a great opening. You really covered it well. You know, let me put it this way. It's not a surprise at all. I mean, gambling has been major business in our former lives, you know, forever. And I say this prohibition was terrific. You know, guys made a lot of money, but it came and went. I was in the gas business, terrific. I had my run seven or eight years, chems and goes. But gambling in that life is never going to go away. What happened here, I believe is just the tip of the iceberg. It's a major business for the guys. They love it, they're good at it. And you know, unfortunately, professional and college athletes, you know, they're always at risk because gambling among athletes, this is, it's, it's an extension of their competitive spirit. They like to raise the stakes in a competition. This is who they are. This has been my experience with them. And they're always going to gamble. They're always going to get themselves in trouble. You know, they're not all Michael Jordans that can afford any money that he loses. He'll never have a problem because he can cover any bet. But a lot of these guys get in trouble. They get involved with the wrong people, and before you know it, we have a whole deal like this.

E (19:44)

You know, Sammy, when I read about, like, physical brutality, like goons descending on these victims who ran up big bets, who were cheated and ran up big bets and then got beaten up to get the money, I kind of thought. I thought that stuff ended in the 70s, but clearly it.

A (20:02)

It didn't.

E (20:03)

And I wanted to ask you about the mob family involvement. Four out of five of the famous mob families in New York were involved. I didn't think they ever worked on anything together, ever. Where am I wrong?

D (20:18)

Well, they did work together. There was the Concrete Club. When they have mutual connections and they can bring it together, they work together. On the Concrete case, they use different unions and different. Everybody had their own connections for stuff. They put it all together. It was very powerful. And then they split the money. But it's not a normal thing with gambling, I don't think. Usually it's separated different families. I never heard of this. And when the show is over, I'd like to know where you could buy that machine.

E (20:59)

Kind of had a feeling you were going to say that, Sammy, but before I leave that topic for a second, I'm still kind of stuck in the 70s and in the movies. And I want to ask you realistically, from what you know today, like, how bad does the violence get when it comes to these debt collectors today? Are they just a punch in the nose like the indictment read, or are they breaking legs?

D (21:23)

I don't know. I really haven't done that. And you know, when they're coming in with 50, 100, 200,000 to play, I can't see, how would they lose? They leave. They're pretty rich people, and I can't see they're up against the mob and they're saying, I'm not going to pay. We'd have to get beaten. Some guys would do that. I don't think that's necessary. And this is where they're really going to get in trouble without the violence in this case, just like Michael said, this has been around forever. This is gambling a Case like this, if there's no violence, these guys will plea out to five or six year sentence, go in and do their time, three, four years and be out, look like a hero. There's no reason to get beaten. And I don't think that a lot of these people, I mean, I think government has always turned around and exaggerated cases just like they did in the P. Diddy case. They put it into a RICO case, didn't belong in the RICO case, and they lost the case. With your rico, it's almost impossible.

E (22:40)

I'm also really confused about how the professional athletes get roped in to A, being convinced to come and sit at the table to make it look legit, and B, fake an injury so we can all make a little money off the, you know, the spread. Maybe, Michael, if you could explain to me, how does you know the members of the racket, how do they approach these coaches and athletes to ask for those two things, do something, throw a game, fake an injury, or come and take part in these poker games so that we can fleece all these rich people?

F (23:13)

Well, you know, quite often you don't have to convince these guys to do it. You know, they're on their streets sometimes they have relationships, they meet with somebody. You know, it's like anything else. You get around them, they get to trust you a little bit. You talk about making some money. Who knows if he's a real gambler? Maybe they lost some money, they want to make it up. And, you know, they came around us a lot because, hey, we can work with these guys. They're never going to tell on us, you know, they're going to protect us. We can make some money with them. Why not? You know, you got to remember this, Ashley, when you're trying to, you know, compromise the outcome of a game, it's never about winning or losing. It's always about the point spread. So if you have a player that, you know, allegedly, let's say that team is favored to win by 10 or 12 points and that player is either on the bench or out with an injury and he doesn't contribute and he tells his partner there, hey, bet the under because I'm not going to be there. Well, who's hurt in his mind? You know, we're not losing, we're just not going to cover the spread. So we made a few bucks, we didn't really hurt the team. And that's how they think of it, you know, and that's how we can convince them, hey, look, we don't want you to lose. Just don't cover the spread. You'll make some money.

E (24:21)

I got 10 seconds left, but I got to ask this question and Sammy, I have to get you to answer it. If it's possible that somebody in this syndicate decided to turn and the old term is rat out the others, what do you think is in store for that person that that turned on the others?

D (24:40)

Well, more than likely in the mob, we killed them. I turned myself. But normally that's what they'll do. They'll kill them. I don't think this is to that degree. These people are not going to be facing life sentences, stuff like that. These are small sentences that they'll play out. Everybody will pound their chest. They won the thing. The answer to the other question is, how do you get them in greed? I see the coach made $100 million. What is he doing in this? In the middle of this, how much greed, how much money do you want? And you put your whole career and everything on the line. That young kid who's saying that I'm not fake an injury and blow the game. I mean, they come out of a tough area, most of them, and they have a great career future and they throw it down the drain for greed.

A (25:35)

Okay, holy shit. Sammy the Bull said, guys who turned got murdered. In my day, but for the grace of God, there he is, though, able to tell us the inside secrets of how the mob works. I love that part where he said, and if you're looking for one of those guard shuffling machines, I got one for you. I mean, this guy really knows the inside secrets and is not afraid to say, hence friend of the show, why I have him on Banfield and on this podcast so often. Incidentally, I do want to tell you that Terry Rozier's Lawy has released a statement and it was late tonight. Again, I'm recording this. On October 23, he released a statement about his client that says in part, and I quote, they, meaning the federal prosecutors, appear to be taking the word of spectacularly in credible sources. Not like, you know, like not credible sources. Right. Rather than relying on actual evidence of wrongdoing, Terry was cleared by the NBA and these prosecutors revived that non case. Don't forget I asked Mark Garagos about federal cases and they often do not pursue the case, charge the case, or take it through to trial unless they're like 95% sure they, they got that case, they're going to win it. And truth be told, they win, I think over 90% of their cases. It goes up and down every so often. But this data is really, really high. So we'll see where this case goes. Whether it's pleads out like my mob friends say it might, or whether it ends up in open court where no doubt we would learn lots more juicy secrets about the underbelly of professional sports. And of course, the mob. I'm Ashley Banfield. Thank you so much for being with me. And I always say it, remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.