Interviewer (1:35)

Hey everyone.

Ashley Banfield (1:36)

I'm Ashley Banfield and this is drop dead serious. There is yet another twist in the David and Celeste investigation and it's one that caught my attention right away. The Los Angeles Times just broke the news that an LA county grand jury is now hearing evidence submitted by prosecutors related to the runaway's death. You heard me. A grand jury. And when I say the runaway's death, the LAPD is now actually calling it a murder. Yeah, finally, right? All of this broke in September. We have been wondering, where is this investigation? Why are you not calling it a murder? You know, this poor girl's remains were rotting in the back of a trunk of a singer that she was apparently dating when she was maybe 13, maybe 12. How is this not a murder? Where are the charges? That's the question that we've all had. Right. The LA Times calls this grand jury investigative. Right. This is something that's used to subpoena witnesses, subpoena evidence, because, you know, police come knocking and it's like. But when you get subpoenaed and you gotta swear under oath. Right. Whole different kettle of fish. But this is also the kind of grand jury that can recommend charges, but it can't actually do any of the indicting. So we asked the LA District Attorney about it. Right.

Interviewer (2:58)

Wow.

Ashley Banfield (2:59)

What are you doing? Tell us more. In true to form, the DA isn't commenting. We got the whole non statement. The. In accordance with long standing official policy and California law, we are not at liberty to discuss or disclose any information about grand jury proceedings. End quote. I didn't expect anything more, honestly. But now it's official. Right. The investigation into the death of Celeste Rivas Hernandez is in fact a murder investigation. And how do we know that exactly? Well, we told you on Monday that police got a court order that banned the medical examiner from being allowed to make their autopsy findings public. About Celeste. Right. The LAPD went to the court said, put the kibosh on the ME and tell the ME they can't talk out loud anymore about Celeste Rivas Hernandez and her autopsy. It's unusual.

Interviewer (3:53)

Yes.

Ashley Banfield (3:53)

If you think it's weird, it is. And the LA Times now says that the LAPD's petition for that order cites, and I quote, an investigation into murder. End quote. Let me read it again. An investigation into murder. That's the cops saying that in their court documents telling the court to stop the M.E. from, you know, gagging. Gagging. The M.E. gagging. So the court document from the LAPD says murder. And it goes further. The LAPD's documents also claim that disclosing death details could, and I quote, endanger the lives of witnesses and. Or compromise the investigation. Endangering lives. Something about her autopsy could endanger someone's life and. Or the investigation. This new reporting comes amid conflicting reports about the state of Celeste's remains. And I know you've been probably following every minute of this, but specifically whether Celeste's body parts had been frozen for weeks or months or whatever, you know, before ending up in the trunk of David's Tesla. Because that's where she was discovered September 8th. Which, incidentally, I know you'll remember this because I can't forget it. It was one day after her 15th birthday. Birthday. So that means Celeste was 14 when she died. 14. I had a chance to dig into all of this with the face and driving force of tmz, my old friend Harvey Levin. And I'm going to take you there in just a minute because he had some things to say. Let me tell you, he's got impeccable sources that are not backing down on the stuff the LAPD saying is not true. So what's going on between the LAPD and these sources that might be a big story Here is my conversation with Harvey Levin from TMZ about all these incredible new developments regarding David and Celeste.

Interviewer (5:53)

Harvey, an investigative grand jury.

Ashley Banfield (5:55)

This was not something I expected.

Harvey Levin (5:57)

Oh, there's so much in this case I don't expect. It's unsurprising to me, and I'll tell you why, Ashley, you know, and we know we've reported this, that the LAPD is looking at David as a suspect. There were a lot of people in David's world, we are told, and people who were coming in and out of that house for many, many months around this whole time. And so there's a big circle around David. And my guess is the LAPD wants to talk to a bunch of them and others connected and not connected to David. When police come a calling, a lot of times people clam up. And they clam up because they want to protect themselves. They want to protect a friend, they get scared. Lawyer says, don't talk to them. What an investigative grand jury can do is say, we're going to subpoena you. And unless you assert your fifth amendment rights, unless you have something that would incriminate you, you got to answer our questions. So these investigative grand juries are often used in cases where. Where the LAPD or other police departments are having trouble getting information from witnesses. So that's why, to me, it's unsurprising that they've called this investigative grand jury. Plus, they can subpoena documents, videos, things like that.

Interviewer (7:18)

What I'm also finding weird and bizarre and just, I guess, unprecedented is this battle between the coroner, the medical examiner, and the LAPD The LAPD saying none of this business is true, but your sources impeccably saying it is true. And I'm wondering if this security hole that the LAPD demanded the court impose on the medical examiner, meaning me, you can't say another word, is because maybe the M.E. hasn't given the entire file to the LAPD yet.

Harvey Levin (7:51)

Well, yeah, I mean, there's a lot there. The. The medical examiner has not even, as far as I know, officially determined a cause of death or the fact that they can't find one because of the state of the body. I'M told they may never be able to really determine what caused her death. I do not know what the state of toxicology is. I just know there are problems or were problems with it because of the body. Now, the medical examiner and the LAPD have not gotten along for several years. I had somebody in LAPD grouse to me last week. We're the ones. You know how we found out about the cause of death for Matthew Perry through the media. They found out. One of them found out from us, Matthew Perry's cause of death. So there are hard feelings there. And when you look at what's going on there, it turns out the lapd, this is the second bite of the apple. In September, mid September, they went to a judge and said, we want to get the Emmys file sealed. And. And the judge wouldn't do it. The judge said, there's not enough evidence to justify sealing it because it's really unusual to do that. So they went back again a few days ago, and this time they got it. And the ME is angry. I mean, I have never in my life seen the Emmy come out with a press release. I mean, way back when I was a kid, I remember. I was 10, nine, whatever. And I remember watching TV when Marilyn Monroe died and Thomas Noguchi came out, who was the coroner way back then. And that's the last time I heard from a coroner. And now they're coming out with a press release saying that we believe in transparency like the LAPD doesn't. And I just haven't seen that.

Interviewer (9:40)

And most people now can't believe you were old enough to remember stuff when Marilyn Monroe died. I'm just going to put that on the table right there. Let's go back to. Let's go back to the business of waterlogged fingers. They couldn't do what was called a live scan of Celeste's body parts because the fingers were, quote, unquote, waterlogged. Can you explain what that meant?

Harvey Levin (10:01)

Well, I can tell you that quote is from a medical examiner's document. We put it on our website. You're essentially saying what it is. It means that the fingers were in a state where. Where you couldn't get a fingerprint that would lead to the identity of the person. It was, I suppose you could say, blunted by water. And what does water mean? I mean, it could mean a variety of things, but it does kind of align with the notion of frozen. So, again, what I'm saying to you, and I want to make this really clear, the LAPD is disputing what we said about the body being partially frozen, the medical examiner. I can say our sources connected to the medical examiner say that it was partially frozen when found.

Interviewer (10:54)

It seems just odd to be partially frozen when found. I could imagine it being partially frozen at some point, but, you know, take a steak out of the freezer, leave it on your counter, and it's not going to smell for days and weeks long until after it's. But I am curious about the notion that it's possible the LAPD is mincing words and that at some point, Celeste's body may have been frozen until whomever wanted to discard it figured out what to do. And then eventually she ended up in the trunk decomposing.

Harvey Levin (11:27)

So here's kind of the way I look at it. And this is me from the outside looking in. So it's not like I got sources on this. I do know this, that the LAPD is making a big, big deal of this mysterious trip. David took to a remote area of Santa Barbara in the middle of the night back in the spring, where he spent a couple of hours there. And that's a big deal. And it sounds to me like that's where they believe the body was in some way dismembered. I mean, that's the way it sounds to me. There are some people who think maybe that's where Celeste died, and I don't know. But there's. The Santa Barbara trip is really important to the lapd. I know that. So if that's the case, if something really bad happened to Celeste in the spring of this year, we are talking, say, that was April. You got May, June, July, August. And then at the beginning of September, they find her body. Where was this body for four months? How on earth could the body just be laying out there? Right. And I was told. Told the body wasn't buried. Now, again, that's one source, but it's a good one. But where was this body for four months? And I can't answer that, and I'm perplexed by it. And the only thing I've been told is don't necessarily use logic here.

Interviewer (12:52)

Well, I tell you what. I spoke with Dr. Dupree, who's a medical examiner, a former medical examiner, and she said if the body parts were frozen at any time, they can determine that through the change in the cellular, you know, comportment, and they will be able to tell if that was the case. I am also super fascinated that finally the word murder is being used, and it's being used in the court petition, as I Understand it that one of the detectives, Detective Joshua Breyers, I think he's with the Robbery Homicide Unit, put in this petition to the court, first of all, acknowledging that there's a grand jury, so there's that. And second of all, saying that this is, quote, an investigation into murder. This is according to the la. The LA Times. Is this the first time you've heard the words murder officially being used?

Harvey Levin (13:41)

No, because, again, we've been told, you know what they. To me, it's been characterized as a homicide for weeks now internally, and that David is a suspect. So it's not hard to connect those dots.

Ashley Banfield (13:56)

I don't know.

Interviewer (13:57)

I think murder is a long way from homicide. That can be an accident. That can be all sorts of things, but murder is intentional. And that one surprised me.

Harvey Levin (14:06)

When you look at it. I mean, I hear what you're saying. The cops. If this were, say, manslaughter, then the cops would know what happened and there would be some resolution. There's foul play here. I mean, actually, the body was cut up. I mean, it was clear. The LAPD has always believed this was foul play.

Host 1 (14:28)

Yeah.

Interviewer (14:29)

Why do you suppose they're saying that? To reveal that divulging any of the medical information. Again, medical information would reveal or tend to reveal the ongoing investigation and the integrity of the investigation, as well as the identity and. Or informants who are cooperating with law enforcement. It could endanger the lives of witnesses and. Or compromise the investigation. This is about the medical information?

Harvey Levin (14:52)

Yeah. I mean, I don't see how the medical examiner is going to release informant information that seems to be under the. In the province of the lapd. So I don't quite understand that. I will say that your. Your view seems to be shared by the medical examiner himself, because according to the medical examiner, there should be transparency here, and this should be released. What I don't know is, you know, was the medical examiner a part of the case when the LAPD petitioned to have it sealed? Or. Or was it just kind of, you know, one day they get an order saying, by the way, the judge just ordered it. I don't know if they were part of this, but it's really interesting to me that the LAPD failed at this once and then had to go back a second time. So the medical examiner must have clearly known the LAPD was trying to do it, and they seemed to oppose it because the LAPD had to go back a second time.

Interviewer (15:48)

Well, listen, I think it sends us into the holiday with a lot more questions than answers, and far more mystery. I'm just going to wish you a Happy Thanksgiving and all the folks behind you, your team, TMZ family as well. Thank you Harvey. So appreciate this.

Ashley Banfield (16:01)

So that is where things stand for now. This investigation is shifting and fast and every new move tells us that prosecutors are digging deeper and not backing off. And there are words between the lines that suggest an arrest might be close. Trust me, the next steps in this case could be big. Make sure you're subscribed I on YouTube or your favorite podcast app so you don't miss a single update because they're coming fast and furious. Meantime, I'm Ashley Banfield and thank you so much for listening and watching. And remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.

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