← Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
Guthrie Mystery: Ransom Scammers in the Crosshairs as the Search for Nancy Guthrie Intensifies
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Ashley Banfield
Hey everybody, I'm Ashley Banfield. This is drop dead serious. Welcome once again to Vermont. It's been another day and there have been weird developments, some very dire developments in the Nancy Guthrie disappearance. We are in day nine. It is day nine of this awful crisis for the Guthrie family. Nine days since 84 year old Nancy Guthrie vanished. You know, at the time we were saying kidnapping and abducted and there have been a lot of people who started to question whether even that happened. Nobody knows at this point officially anyway, so certainly not being told publicly what happened to Mrs. Guthrie. And if the law enforcement officers who are working on this know and are chasing specific leads, they are not saying so publicly. I'm recording this on Monday, February 9th. Just hours ago, a very important deadline passed. And I think you could say this was the second but most consequential deadline in that whole alleged ransom effort. I think you all know that there have been at least three ransom demand letters that were Emailed or electronically sent to TMZ and two local Tucson stations. There was another effort in California that was made via another communication to the family. Somebody's been arrested and charged in that case. It's different than these three, but these three, three all seem to be from the same source, making very specific demands that the first deadline would be Thursday of last week. And if $4 million wasn't sent by the deadline on Thursday, then the second deadline would be today. Again, today is Monday, and That deadline was 5pm Local Tucson time, and it would be 6 million. The consequences would go up by 2 million. And so you saw over the weekend, Savannah and her siblings putting out a plea to please let them have proof of life, but then also suggesting we understand and we'd like our mom back so that we can celebrate with her. That seemed very dire as well. There was a note, not a ransom communication, an added note that came into a Tucson station that was communicative, and it led to Savannah saying those words. We heard your message, and we understand, understand, but the only way we can get peace is if she's returned to us. So it seemed as though some people felt that they were appealing to the kidnappers for a body as opposed to the return of their. Their mother alive. Authorities have not released any of that information. It's just people who are wondering and reading into Savannah's words. Savannah also released another video today. I'm going to show all that to you. I have a lot to tell you about today, in fact, because there's a lot to be said about the deadline that passed today. And according to tmz, they know the wallet, right? They're the ones that got the letter. So they know the wallet and they can check the wallet. And they said as of tonight and that deadline, the wallet had no deposits, no transaction activity, probably for very good reason. I'm going to break all that down for you. And also, if you have had any hope like I have that authorities are smarter than these guys and that they're going to catch them. Have I ever got an interview for you? You're probably going to feel a lot better when you hear from one of the experts that I'm going to speak to in just a moment about how. Yeah, yeah, bitcoin's not all that anonymous, and cryptocurrency is not all that anonymous. And this whole cat and mouse game between the authorities and the bad guys. Well, sometimes the authorities are win. In fact, a lot of times the authorities are winning. And it doesn't always require someone to Pay into the wallet in order to track the wallet. It's so interesting what you're going to hear. I encourage you to sit through this because it made me feel better that whomever is doing this to the Guthrie's is going to be caught. I think we're dealing with two different crimes. I think we're dealing with the scammers who are trying to, you know, exploit a terrible situation to get money. And then I think we're dealing with the terrible situation at hand, which is the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie. I'm going to break all of this down. Well, what the unanswered ransom demand may actually mean, including new reporting on new leads that the authorities have said, expert insight into the whole transactional aspect of this. And we're also going to get into Savannah's latest public statement. There's a lot that was said and not said which speaks volumes. She's made updated comments. We've had comments from law enforcement. Unusual, like two sets, almost a correction. I'll get into that in a minute. Then there's also a whole new layer on the search activity that took place at Savannah's sister's house late Saturday night. And so many people were asking so many questions. Understandably, you know, three unmarked vehicles show up and three officers get out and then flashbulbs start going off and they're covering the windows late at night, like 8 o' clock until 11 o' clock local time in Tucson. So it obviously raised a lot of questions. And as I'm recording this, it's 11:15 Eastern. Yeah. So we were told there was going to be activity there tonight by the authorities. So it's 9:15 at night right now and there's no activity. And we were told there would be activity at both residences tonight. I will get into that. What it might mean, what it might not. The authorities today did not hold a press conference. They haven't done that since Thursday. But they released a very long statement. Right. The sheriffs. I'll get to the FBI in a second. But they suggested that they were going to be out at the two Guthrie residences again tonight. Interesting. They haven't been. Not yet. Again, it's 11:18 Eastern, 9:18 local time. They're not there. They also suggested that they are running down new leads and that's great. As they should. The way investigations work is you build, build, build, build, build. And sometimes you get a right turn and sometimes you get a left turn and returns take you. So I'm going to read you their statements in just a minute, including the oops, did we forget? And we'll add this to it 20 minutes later. Statement, which is odd, but I will read that for you in just a second. But first, I want to play for you Savannah's statement today. It was just her. She didn't have the siblings with her. She was shooting herself on Instagram. It was not set up with like an FBI ring light or a formal set, you know, seating. It didn't look like there was anything being read. And I want you to listen really carefully to the things that she says. And then on the other side, we're going to talk about the things she does not say.
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Savannah Guthrie
Hi there, everybody. I wanted to come on and just share a few thoughts as we enter into another week of this nightmare. I just want to say, first of all, thank you so much for all of the prayers and the love that we have felt, my sister and brother and I, and that our mom has felt. Because we believe that somehow, some way, she is feeling these prayers and that God is lifting her. Even in this moment and in this darkest place, we believe our mom is still out there. We need your help. Law enforcement is working tirelessly around the clock trying to bring her home, trying to find her. She was taken and we don't know where. And we need your help. So I'm coming on just to ask you, not just for your prayers, but no matter where you are, even if you're far from Tucson, if you see anything, you hear anything, if there's anything at all that seems strange to you that you report to law enforcement. We are at an hour of desperation and we need your help.
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Ashley Banfield
So Savannah released that statement just before the 5 o' clock local ransom deadline came and went. That was very interesting. Not one mention of the ransom. Not one mentioned to the kidnappers. Not a mention to her mother either. Just to us, everyone in America and beyond, to please, please, if you can think of anything tiny, please help. Because we could crowdsource a solution to this crime. This was her appeal. And I will tell you this. I have personal experience with the smallest of potential things you notice can solve a crime. 20 some odd years ago, I was working at Court TV covering a case of the murder of Leta Sullivan in Atlanta. And her husband, James Sullivan, had dis. James Sullivan, Leta's husband, hired a hitman. They were going through a divorce. It was all about money. And he had hired a hitman to go to her door and pose as a flower delivery man with pink roses. And he rang the doorbell and Lita answered the door and the gun went through the roses and shot Lita dead. It was a horrendous crime, and they caught the hitman and a couple of other people, but they didn't catch James because he beelined it out of the country.
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Ashley Banfield
I'll tell you where in a second. But it was a long way away and so in absentia, they charged and convicted him. Amazing. But he was somewhere else. They didn't have him. And so years went by and John Walsh with America's Most Wanted decided to do a segment on the murder of Lita Sulliv and James Sullivan being one of America's most wanted. And the episode played, whether in syndication or live, I don't know, but it played in Thailand. Okay, the episode and the story of Lita being murdered with the flower delivery and the pink roses. It played in Thailand. And wouldn't you know it, someone in Thailand saw the America's Most Wanted episode and recognized the guy and thought, I know him, he's here. And that someone called the local authorities and the Thai police arrested James Sullivan in Thailand, and he was extradited back to the United States to actually face trial again. I know you're saying double jeopardy, federal. So it wasn't double jeopardy because the state and the feds charged him separately. Interstate commerce, et cetera, because he had used the phone lines, et cetera, to set up the hitman. And the hitman testified and they got him. And so it was one person's eyeballs across the other side of the world that brought James Sullivan to justice. So it does work. What Savannah's asking us all to do, that it does work. Somebody out there may have heard or seen something that, given all the facts we know now, kind of maybe fits. It's for the detective to sort through it. So the detectives will sort through it. But don't keep it to yourself. 1-800- call FBI. We put this graphic up all the time. If you think you know something, if you heard something, if something just doesn't seem right, no detail is too small. It's not a joke. It's not a platitude. It actually works. I've seen it happen. That's just one example where I've seen it happen. Okay, a couple things I want to tell you about Pima county sheriffs. Again, like we said, not giving any press conferences and not planning to unless there's anything big. But I do want to read you a very long statement that they sent to the media today. Okay, here it is, verbatim. We do not have any additional information to release publicly this afternoon. The investigation into Nancy Guthrie's disappearance remains active and ongoing. We understand the significant public interest in this case. However, investigators need time and space to do their work. If and when relevant information becomes available, it will be shared. And then they sort of bold regarding the investigation itself. And this is what they say, investigation colon. Many of you observed an active law enforcement presence at the Guthrie Residences, plural, over the weekend. That activity will continue tonight and into tomorrow as part of the ongoing investigative process, including the expansion of the search and follow up on new leads. Okay. All interesting. They're expanding the search. Good. They're expanding the follow up on new leads. New leads is always good, right? The activity at the Guthrie residences, plural. Will continue tonight and into tomorrow. It's now 11:25pm Eastern and still no activity at either of these residences. And I'll remind you, on Saturday night, It started at 8 o' clock local and went through till about 11 o' clock local. Very dark and very, you know, odd for Everybody maybe even more odd that we're told it's happening and it's not. This is all part of the investigative process. As the search for Nancy expands and new leads come in. I like that part. To preserve the integrity of this criminal investigation, details of that process are not being released at this time. Probably wise now. The next headline is Ransom Colon. The FBI is handling all aspects related to any ransom note, parentheses s notes or communications involving the Guthrie family. Any inquiries regarding this matter should be directed to the FBI public affairs office. The next line is tips tips. Colon. We appreciate the media's assistance in helping get information to the public. Thousands of calls have been received across multiple tip lines and investigators continue to review them and then they call to action for you. Anyone who believes they have information that may assist investigators is asked to contact 1-800- call FBI. The Pima County Sheriff's Department non emergency line is also up at 520-351-4900 or 88. Crime video or pictures can also be uploaded via the QR code attached. So when that statement came out this afternoon, late this afternoon, I was waiting for the comment that they have made in every one of their public addresses since the beginning of the week. And that is we are not announcing any suspects, persons of interest or vehicles of interest. But they didn't say that. That was left out of this statement. And immediately I wondered, was it an accident? Did they mean to? And then we may have gotten our answer just under a half hour later because suddenly the Pima county sheriff put something out on Twitter,/X and this is what it said. There are no press briefings scheduled at this time regarding Nancy Guthrie. Should significant developments occur, a press conference will be called and media will be notified via email. And our Pima Pima Sheriff X account. Investigators have not identified any suspects, persons of interest or vehicles connected to Nancy Guthrie. Anyone who believes they may have information that may assist investigators is asked to contact 1-800- call FBI or the Pima County Sheriff's office. Non emergency line. I'll say it again. 520-351-4900 or 88 crime. So they didn't say it in the big statement, but then they put it out on X as if I don't know if it was a mistake. And somebody called them and said, hey, why are you not saying that anymore? Why did you leave out the fact that we don't have any, you know, we've not identified any suspects. And I will also remind you that language is important saying that we have not identified Any suspects, persons of interest for vehicles doesn't mean we don't have any. It's just the language they work in and it's the language the media works in. And we've been at this cat and mouse game for years and years and years. And it is entirely possible that they do. And they are not saying they're identifying one because identifying one is different than having one. You don't have to identify it to us. You can keep it a secret. So take that for what it's worth. Interestingly, it did not take long before the FBI also put out a statement today. Let me read it for you verbatim. For more than a week, FBI agents, analysts and professional staff have worked around the clock to reunite Nancy Guthrie with her family. Break for a second here because Savannah mentioned that. Savannah, you could tell in. In her presentation and her words and her exhaustion how appreciative she's been of the work that law enforcement has been doing on this case. That's what I read in to that comment of hers and it's the words that she used as well. She was so thankful. I'll continue. The FBI is not aware of any continued communication between the Guthrie family and suspected kidnappers, nor have we identified a suspect or person of interest in this case at this time. I don't know if the FB is talking about this case because it's all one sentence about communication between the suspected kidnappers. Is it the kidnapping case and the ransom. The alleged ransom notes or is it the disappearance of Nancy? Because they may be two different cases. So I'm not sure that I can. I'm not sure that I can tell with the syntax of this if the FBI is referring to. We've not identified a suspect or a person of interest in this case at this time because it. Continue. It's a continuation from. The FBI is not aware of any continued communication between the Guthrie family and suspected kidnappers. So additional personnel from FBI field offices across the nation continue to deploy to Tucson. We are currently operating a 24 hour command post that includes crisis management experts, analytics support and investigative teams. But we still need the public's help. Someone has that one piece of information that can help us bring Nancy home. We need that person to share what they know. Please call us at 1-800- call FBI. Speaking of the FBI, you have probably heard that the FBI Director Cash Patel was supposed to be in Tucson today. Don't think that. Oh well, you know. Is Savannah Guthrie special and she gets the FBI director. That's not the issue here. Cash Patel apparently had a previously scheduled trip to Tucson, so it just might be luck that he happens to be there. My guess is that he would not go there without some kind of an update. He'll conduct whatever business I assume he's going to Tucson for, but we'll also have a chance to maybe get an update or be briefed, at least by somebody on this case. I can imagine, since the president has, you know, spoken of this on Air Force One, has mentioned it before, said that he even called Savannah, that the president will probably want to be updated as well, and perhaps Kash Patel will be able to do that again. I can only imagine that the FBI director will get some sort of one on one with the agents who are involved in this case and hear something about it. It's my guess only. So let's talk a little bit about Saturday's search. Saturday night was an unusual night. And, you know, the press corps was just sort of flummoxed by the idea that these three unmarked vehicles and then three sheriff's deputies would carry this folding table and be wearing blue latex gloves and be photographing, flash photographing inside Annie Guthrie's home. And then, like, putting up barriers so that the windows would be covered. The reporters could still see the flashes going off anyway. And, you know, it had a lot of people asking a lot of questions, understandably. Right. This is an extraordinarily high profile case, and there's been a lot going on, and they're a week out with still no Nancy and no identified suspect. And so Brian Enten was very astute this morning. He said that NBC had reported that that search of Annie Guthrie's home, according to NBC, had been consensual, meaning maybe not even a warrant. Maybe just. Can we come and search your home at some point? Sure. Brian said it was interesting when the vehicle showed up unmarked, the security guard, private security hired by Savannah Guthrie's family, just let them in, no questions asked. So that would make a little bit of sense. At least they had the heads up. But other law enforcement sources said, not so fast. In fact, Brian had a great conversation with a former Pima county sheriff's detective who said, you know, in circumstances like that, even if you get a consensual search of a home, you back it up with a warrant, not because you need to present it at the door, but because you need to preserve any kind of potential prosecution maybe down the line. Because if you do not have the warrant, and, you know, warrants are very specific, they list out everything that you want to see or probable cause that you believe exists. Right. And then the judge has to say, okay, okay, okay. But if you just get the consensual search, you know, a defense attorney can say later, well, all those things weren't consented to, you know, just one or two of those things. So we're gonna actually request, you know, here's a motion to suppress that evidence, because we don't believe that that search was legitimate. Consensual was only partial. And so that the. The detective, former detective, said those kinds of things are backed up oftentimes by a warrant. And Brian Enten was asked about that on News Nation and. And spoke about it. Here's. Here's how Brian reported it.
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Brian Enten
You mentioned the weekend. It was very, very busy here over the weekend. Of course, Friday night, we had the FBI search, the massive search here at Nancy's home. But then on Saturday night, sheriff's deputies showed up to Annie's home. And Annie is, of course, Nancy's other daughter, Savannah's sister. And I ran out there, and there were three deputies. They were collecting evidence. They had blue gloves on, and they went inside the house for three hours. And you see it right here. You just saw flash. They were taking photos inside Annie's home, and they started in the garage, and they worked their way across the house into different rooms, too. The blinds were closed, but you could see the flash coming through the windows. What they were looking for, details of that investigation, we don't know. We were over at the courthouse today trying to see if there were any search warrants available, and there were none. And we were told there weren't even any sealed warrants to see, which is interesting. NBC News is reporting that the Guthrie's gave consent for the sheriff's deputies to go in there and investigate on Saturday night.
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Ashley Banfield
So it's fascinating, because that could go either way. Right? You could see it as. I think there probably is a warrant. And maybe the courts weren't necessarily filed properly. Maybe it was a mistake. They might have told Brian something wrong. Maybe instead there was no warrant. And something else that that former homicide detective said could be true that so many of the staff have left the Pima County Sheriff's office in the last several years, and that there's a dearth of experience on the. In the sheriff's department there. No flies on anyone. It's just that I think we can all agree that in the last five years, you know, America's taken the boots to its police, you know, officers, and a lot of police officers have hung up their cuffs and said, fine, I don't need to get spit on outside while I'm risking my life every day and getting injured on the job. And so a lot of people have fled the profession. And this may be the same thing that the Pima can Sheriff's department has experienced. But this former homicide detective said, you know, God, like, everybody just flew the coop and there's so many new people that are very inexperienced, no flies on them. He said it just takes time to build up that kind of experience. Was this a factor that maybe. Maybe this consent was given and nobody had the experience to think, oh, gee, we better preserve the prosecution that may be down the line and get a warrant to go with it. Maybe it's a factor of officers just saying, great, we got permission. Let's just go on in. I do not know, but it is an interesting. It's an interesting development in how that search actually might have been carried out and why that search may have been carried out. Might it have been that the officers only wanted to photograph? I don't know what. But have no interest or think that the family is of interest at all. They've already said that everybody's a suspect. Right. And in any investigation, families are as well. So I just find the whole thing kind of odd. But hopefully we'll get some resolution as to, you know, how and why and when all of that played out and whether it repeats itself again. We're 11:37 Eastern now, right? 9:37, no Mountain Time and still no activity out there. And I am checking, by the way, I know I'm doing this, but I'm also checking because there's live feeds going on at all time. Okay. Something else that we need to talk about. It's kind of been bugging me this whole. I've brought it up before, I brought it up on my last podcast, but the whole notion of Nancy's church service on Sunday morning a week ago, the thing that brought to light that there's something wrong and the family needs to check on Nancy. Okay. Up until now, the first thing we'd heard was that Nancy didn't show up for church. Church member called her family, family went and did a welfare check, called 911. Then it came to pass that it was reported Nancy had not gone to church in person since the pandemic and livestreams it. Well, that's fascinating because live streams are one way and you can't always be aware of who's watching the live stream and who isn't. Not to say that churches might not be able to see who their members are. And if they're checking in, that might have happened. But the Daily Mail had a little nugget in their reporting today, which may have some clarification here. And if what they're reporting is true, it actually makes a lot of sense. I want to read this for you. And again, I don't know why I'm not seeing it anywhere else. But the Daily Mail has this. They report, quote, the alarm wasn't raised until the following day, meaning Sunday, when Nancy failed to join a group of friends who had been due to watch an online service at St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church together that morning. That makes sense, right? Maybe Nancy didn't want to go to church. That's a lot, right? Parking lot, walking, getting up the stairs, getting into a pew. She doesn't walk well on her own. 50 yards is what we're told. She can't walk without help. So maybe there was just a group of friends getting together at a home. Easier to get in and out. We can all watch the live stream together. And it was that group of friends that alerted. Why isn't Nancy coming? Ring, ring, ring, ring, ring. No answer. Then call the family. That would make a heck of a lot more sense. And again, props to the Daily Mail if the reporting's accurate, because it's the only place I've actually seen that something else that happened today. Look, it may be absolutely nothing, but I think since so many eyeballs are on both Nancy Guthrie's house and Annie Guthrie's house, that anything that happens gets a lot of oxygen. And there were some schools of thought on. On just a sprinkler starting to go off on the top of Nancy's roof. First of all, I wondered why sprinklers would be on top of a roof, not down in the, you know, the gardens, et cetera. But I saw one commenter from the Phoenix area who said, you know, I'm from the Phoenix area, and we put sprinklers in our roof to keep things cool. Whether that was true or not made sense to me. I've never lived in a Southern climate like that, lived in Dallas, but I didn't sprinkle my roof. And then other people said that the sprinklers going off and the pressure of the water going up on that roof may have been as a result of back pressure from trying to empty a cistern or a water tank or overflow tank or a runoff tank. Because we saw yesterday the probing of what a lot of people reported was a septic Tank, some reported as a water tank or a water cistern. Nobody knows for sure. Very, very large entry point and cap that one could climb down into if need be. And yes, you do have septic tanks that you can climb down into because oftentimes you've got to shovel out the sludge after several years. Water tanks. Don't know. I don't know that you need to be able to climb down into water tanks other than maybe to clean them. But the jury's out on whether that was water tanks, overflow tanks, or septic. But some commenters who saw these sprinklers going off, just two of these sprinklers going off on Nancy's roof suggested that maybe forensic investigators are trying to empty out those tanks, pump out the water to see if there's any forensic evidence that may have been dumped into those tanks. It's not a bad idea. They should have done it anyway. I don't know that seven days later would have been the time to check the tanks in the back underground. But I've covered cases where septic tanks have been checked for bodies before, so who knows if the sprinklers had anything to do with it. My own personal musings were that the, you know, FBI were on the roof a couple days ago, actually dismantling another camera that they found, you know, five, six days after the initial crime scene had been released and taking that camera off the edge of the roof. Right. And I wondered if maybe they'd gone around the roof and maybe jostled the sprinkler head, thinking maybe it was a camera and realizing, oh, it's not, it's just a sprinkler head. But maybe they jostled it and maybe that's why it, you know, reacted the way it did today. And the water was spurting up from the roof. Anyway, I only bring that up because so many people were looking at this and wondering, what does it mean? Are they emptying the water tanks looking for evidence or a body or any kind of forensic sign of something being, you know, tossed out. So there's another report that Michael Ruiz, who's a great reporter with Fox News Digital, released late today, and he said he has it from his sources that the locals, meaning the local sheriff's department, delayed the cooperation with the feds in Nancy's disappearance and, you know, criminal probe. And I find that interesting because I listened to the sheriff very, very carefully on Thursday when he said that they have a very good relationship with the FBI field offices and the, you know, federal deployed officers in the Tucson area and that they work together all the time and that it's not an antagonistic relationship. Sometimes it is, and certainly in Hollywood, you see, you know, that happen. But I will tell you, in the JonBenet Ramsey case, no, the Boulder police just basically flipped off the feds and never wanted them in and didn't invite them in and didn't get the extraordinary resources that the feds can bring in. The FBI's resources are remarkable, especially in digital forensics. But. But in this particular case, I was thinking, based on what the sheriff said on Thursday, that they had a very good relationship and that they may have been working seamlessly since the beginning, but maybe not, because, as Michael Ruiz reports, locals delayed cooperation with the feds for days. Days. That's big days. So interesting. Within days, they let them into the fold. Let me read verbatim what he says. Law enforcement sources described a delay, local cooperation with federal investigators, with days going by before they let them into the fold. So all that would stand to reason, because we couldn't understand why Monday the scene is released, and then a few days later, the tape goes back up. And then feds are all over the place, the tape goes back down. Agents keep returning almost daily, going behind in the thicket, in the rough, you know, desert. I don't even know what you call it, like, the rough, the rough, the rugged, you know, desert cacti in the back of the. Of Nancy Guthrie's property. And there's just sort of been these body searches going on. Maybe they're a result of a tip, maybe the result of a. A theory that agents are banding about and just want to check out. Certainly it took days before they actually lifting those caps and probing down those septic tanks or water tanks, whatever it is. So with Michael Ruiz's reporting, it's just interesting to go back in time a little bit, because right away, we thought it was interesting when we just thought Nancy Guthrie was missing and maybe wandered. Homicide detectives were brought in. And I think that the. The clue was there's enough evidence inside the house to warrant homicide detectives taking a look. We didn't know about the blood on the front, you know, entrance of the house. We didn't know about that at the time. But homicide detectives are brought in, right? And within 30 or so hours of the 911 call, the search is called off for Nancy Guthrie.
- [37:16]
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- [38:46]
Ashley Banfield
So this is all very fascinating. We don't have the FBI brought in, apparently, according to Michael Ruiz's reporting. We don't have the FBI brought in on Monday. We don't have anything. Other sheriffs respond. They bring in the homicide investigators, they do some cursory searching and within 30 hours they call off the search and they say permanently. That's what the sheriff said, permanently. And unless and until it warrants, we won't bring the search back. And there really hasn't been any kind of informal searching for Nancy like there haven't been these. Elizabeth Smart There were just hundreds and hundreds of people out grid searching all around that house up into the mountains. That didn't happen. I mean, we've had authorities coming in and searching bits and pieces and, you know, little bits here and there, two or three. But there's been nothing like this massive grid search. So why, what was it that the locals discovered and the homicide detectives discovered on Monday of last week, a week ago today that they thought nothing to see here, call off the search permanently. So now you realize, okay, well then how did the metric change days later when the feds are brought in again? According to Michael's reporting, days later, the Feds come in, or at least they're brought more into the fold. Something that they'll have to answer hopefully at some point. Okay, to the hope. There's a lot of hope that we all have to have in this case, right? There's hope that Nancy will come home alive, number one. There's hope that whoever did this will be caught and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. There's also the hope that whoever may be behind these ransom letters, whether they're alleged or real, that they're going to be caught. And you want to say drawn and quartered, right? But that we will throw every maximum penalty if found guilty at them. And to that extent, boy, was I ever feeling better about that when I spoke with Ari Redboard. If you don't know who Arie Redboard is, you should. He might be one of the smartest people that I have met in a long time with a resume that gives him every bonafide and accolade to be able to speak to the topic I'm about to bring up. He's the vice president and global head of policy at TRM Labs. What's that you say? That was my question, too. They're a blockchain intelligence company, the way I like to call them. They deal in threat finance. Threat finance. Okay. So the things that Ari told me about finding these sons of bitches, it made me feel a lot better because it's, like, not as anonymous as you think. And I'm going to play the whole interview for you. He weighs in on so much about this whole bitcoin bullshit that these scammers are trying to pull off and that whoever these guys who are attacking the Guthrie family are trying to pull off. Here is my interview with a guy who I wish I'd met years and years ago, because I have been fumbling through. You know, how. I mean, honestly, I've been fumbling through how anonymous cryptocurrency really is, because to me, cash is anonymous. Right, because you're handing it. But I feel like any. Any sort of transaction can actually be followed like a bank ledger can be followed. And as it turns out, I'm not entirely wrong. And bad guys have to have a wallet, and that wallet has to actually have a pattern. And it can be followed everywhere it goes, not just in the way they spend, but in the way they've behaved in the past. So thank you, Arri Redboard, for helping me to negotiate the fact that these bad guys actually could easily be caught. Ari, talk to me a bit about the anonymous aspect of Bitcoin or the fact that maybe it isn't so anonymous?
- [42:51]
Ari Redboard
No, I love the way you, you frame the question there. And the reality is there is this conversation ongoing around sort of cryptocurrency and whether it's anonymous, whether we can trace or see transactions. And the reality is that every single transaction on a blockchain, and blockchains are where cryptocurrency lives and moves, are trackable, traceable and immutable, meaning they are there forever. So every transaction in bitcoin. Bitcoin is a public blockchain, which means everyone can see every transaction in real time. Our law enforcement and others are able to track and trace the flow of funds, ultimately to investigate illicit finance cases, quite frankly, better than we ever could in the traditional world. I spent about 11 years as a federal prosecutor at the Department of Justice and I investigated cases involving bulk cash smuggling and networks of hawalas and shell companies and high value art and diamonds and real estate. There was no TRM to track and trace the flow of those things on blockchains. TRM is the name of our company.
- [43:53]
Ashley Banfield
There was no TRM labs, there was.
- [43:55]
Ari Redboard
No TRM labs to track and trace those things. It just, it didn't exist. Right, because those transactions were happening in the real world. They were, they were opaque transactions. But on blockchains, every transaction is logged and immutable. It's the ultimate crime scene.
- [44:08]
Ashley Banfield
But why then does it seem as though all the bad actors in the world, all the scammers from overseas, everybody who's doing something he or she shouldn't be is doing it through bitcoin?
- [44:17]
Ari Redboard
It's a great question. And first of all, I would certainly argue, I think against that. Right. We put out a report recently that said 2025 was a record setting year for cryptocurrency related crime. We saw about 158 billion. That's a lot, right? And through a different, a whole different series of crimes. However, that made up only about 1.2% of all activity within the crypto ecosystem, which is overwhelmingly lawful. However, that 1.2% is what keeps me up at night. We're talking about North Korean hackers and Russian cyber criminals and, and scammers. So the reality is it's, you know, any, anything where someone could lose their life savings is too much. However, it still is a relatively small amount of activity. Really, really kind of going to your question. However, crypto is a bit of a paradox, right? We can now move funds faster and in larger amounts than ever before. And that's actually the promise of the technology for payments for remittances, for humanitarian aid. Right. We could bank the unbanked corners of the world now, as long as someone has a cell phone. However, bad actors also want to move larger amounts of funds at the speed of the Internet across borders. The real difference maker, though, is we can now track and trace those funds in real time on a public ledger to ultimately try to seize them back, to potentially investigate bad actors and build investigations.
- [45:40]
Ashley Banfield
So I want to talk about the, obviously, these alleged ransom notes that have been coming in from the alleged Savannah Guthrie kidnappers, because I'm not so sure that these are the same. They're all in the same crime. It's very possible that there's a crime where Mrs. Guthrie was taken, and there's an entirely different ancillary crime where parasites are glomming on and trying to make money. But I think the curious thing is that it feels as though it's impossible to find them. And yet, the more I read about crypto, it's hard to spend it without being seen. You can have your anonymous wallet, but once you try to start spending it, forget getting a piece of property, forget getting a big delivery of Rolls Royces, et cetera. Is that sort of too? Am I a neophyte when I say those things?
- [46:27]
Ari Redboard
I actually think you nailed it, and you actually went significantly deeper than a lot of what the narrative I've heard out there is. And that is the reality you are looking at. For example, reportedly there was a ransom note that had a bitcoin address in this case case, and that address is just an alphanumeric string. It's letters and numbers. Right. We can't identify a user with that address. But what law enforcement can do is look at that tool, look at that address in trm, in our software, and start to try to understand, you know, get some insights into that address. For example, do we have it attributed? Can we actually already associate it with a known bad actor or entity, meaning.
- [47:06]
Ashley Banfield
They'Ve done something like this before?
- [47:08]
Ari Redboard
Maybe that's possible, maybe it's not. Right? That's one possibility. Another possibility is we can start to build out a network who has sent funds to this address, who has received funds from this address, and you build out a larger and larger network. Now, let's assume nothing has happened. Let's say it's a brand new address that is spun up specifically in this case. Then the reality is all we have is that alphanumeric address. But the key is, once a payment is made of some kind, if and when that happens, we'll be able to see funds go to that wallet address and then track and trace the flow of funds from it. And the key there is, you know, we don't live in a world where people can transact entirely on blockchains, right? You can't take crypto to the grocery store today, in most instances, Walmart, you know, you can't buy anything with it in the real world, with exceptions, however. So what you need there is you need an off ramp. You need to convert that cryptocurrency, that Bitcoin to more usable fiat currencies, cash essentially. For that you need a cryptocurrency exchange. Cryptocurrency exchanges are essentially banks on blockchains, but they do the same thing from a know your customer perspective that banks do. They will ask for your name, for your Social Security number, for your address, for your phone number, for an email account to set up an account. And that's where law enforcement has its best shot here. That's where law enforcement can serve a subpoena or a search warrant and say, hey to the exchange.
- [48:40]
Ashley Banfield
So they actually subpoena the exchange saying, hey, this guy was using this off ramp and we don't like that wallet. Tell us who it is and what ID you have on them.
- [48:48]
Ari Redboard
Boom. You use TRM to track and trace the flow of funds to a cryptocurrency exchange where you then use legal process. You serve that subpoena and say, I want that underlying customer data that know your customer, that kyc. And what really happens then is law enforcement starts to use the tools that they use in every case. And that is you get a Gmail account maybe and you serve a subpoena on Google or you, you start to understand what the social media profile is. Do you have a phone number? You subpoena the cell phone provider, maybe you transact, transact, triangulate cell tower information and start to try to really hone.
- [49:28]
Ashley Banfield
In on that individual, literally bringing in.
- [49:30]
Ari Redboard
The old school, old school police work. So you combine and that's why it's really important. These tools like TRM are not silver bullets. They're one tool in a toolbox that investigators have to investigate cases that are involved on chain and off chain activity.
- [49:45]
Ashley Banfield
What happens when we're talking about actors overseas? It's fine to say a subpoena here, you know, in the 50 U.S. but what do you do when all of a sudden it's in Myanmar?
- [49:52]
Ari Redboard
It's a great question. So, you know, obviously there are places that historically have been hard for the U.S. right? You think about Iran and North Korea and Russia and, you know, other jurisdictions. And you're absolutely right. But there are large global cryptocurrency exchanges that are very responsive to law enforcement. And so much of liquidity exists in these sort of what I'd call compliant cryptocurrency exchanges. Exchanges that have controls like TRM that use these types of tools that respond to law enforcement subpoena. So the reality is, you're absolutely right. This is when things get harder, is when you're sending funds to an OTC broker in China or using a Russian based cryptocurrency exchange that does not do kyc, that does not respond to law enforcement. So I think that's where, I'm sorry, know your customer, the sort of, you know, the, the information there. So that's where things get harder. And I would say, yeah, please, listeners.
- [50:46]
Ashley Banfield
Know, know your customer is actually a true standard within U. S. Banking. It's like you can't just, you can't just do Swiss banks anymore. You actually have to know who's behind anytime.
- [50:59]
Ari Redboard
You know, anyone who's listening to this, who's opened a bank account or a credit card or anything else knows that you have to provide certain information. Your name, your address, your phone number. Even these days they do screenshots or want to see an image of your driver's license. Right. Cryptocurrency exchanges, the ones that everyone sort of knows that are advertising on the super bowl this week, they are doing the same. Know your customer that, that banks are doing and they're, they're extremely compliant and they're sort of doing all this stuff where things get harder as you, and you went right to it is when these cryptocurrency exchanges don't do know your customer are in places like Russia or in, you know, Southeast Asia or in China or elsewhere.
- [51:38]
Ashley Banfield
Let me ask you this. And again, if you're, if you're kind of behind here, and I'm talking to our listeners and viewers here, it's basically like, okay, so you got your $6 million check, that's paper until you take it to the bank. And the bank is where you get in trouble. So it's the same thing when you're talking about the exchange. You got to go to the exchange, you got to empty that wallet and get your money out into the, you know, into a working system. And the exchanges are clean except for the bad guys. Let me ask you this. Can an American be using an exchange that's in Iran or North Korea or China. Like, is it just a keyboard no matter where in the world you are?
- [52:13]
Ari Redboard
In part, it's more and more difficult to access certain exchanges. It's very. And I think there's an open question as to the level of sophistication of any individual that we're dealing with here. It's a lot easier to open a Coinbase account, a US regulated institution in the US Than it is eight to one that you're describing here. A more sophisticated actor may be using OTC brokers that are located in places like China that are maybe using non compliant Russian cryptocurrency exchanges. But the reality is that, you know, violent criminals are looking to crypto because we can send funds faster and in larger amounts. But at the same time, they're not the most sophisticated actors from a technology standpoint. So it's very possible they've just spun up an account at a cryptocurrency exchange and we actually have hope of getting that underlying information. And we've seen this play out before. Just to put a point on it, we've seen a spate of what we call wrench attacks, which are violent crimes involving cryptocurrency. And essentially what happens is a bad actor, a violent criminal, threatens someone with a knife or a gun and says, give me your private keys, give me your cryptocurrency. And we've seen a spate of these. We've seen about 70 reported in 2025 globally. I think the number is much higher because they're reported usually as home invasions or robberies. But we saw a spate of these up and down the east coast of the United States about a year or so ago. And ultimately we were able to identify the individuals behind the addresses just because Coinbase had that information. Coinbase worked with law enforcement using trm. Ultimately, the ringleader in those cases got the largest sentence ever involving a cryptocurrency case, about 40 years. So it's doable.
- [54:00]
Ashley Banfield
Yeah. I feel better talking to you because I have felt very hopeless for Savannah and her family, mostly because they don't know if it's real. But what are you going to do? You know, it's your mother you're talking about. So you're going to do anything, whether it's real or not, you're desperate. And Savannah even mentioned today this is our hour of desperation. Can I ask you. TMZ obviously has the address of the wallet, right? Because they were given the missive and they've been checking and there's been no activity. And so Is it possible without any money going into the wallet, to still do the sleuthing based on the power of subpoena? What the government has, the knowledge base that the government has, could the perpetrators of this still be caught even if there isn't a payment into it and a payment out of the wallet?
- [54:48]
Ari Redboard
Look, I think like, first of all, as a principle, just like having been a prosecutor for a long time, working really with closely with law enforcement today, I just wouldn't comment on the facts at all of this specific case. What I would say is that these tracing tools are one tool in a toolbox that investigators have. And I know that they are doing absolutely everything to try to figure out every little piece to this puzzle, going over that note, going over every other possibility here. So I think that the crypto tracing is one piece of sort of a much larger puzzle here.
- [55:18]
Ashley Banfield
Weirdly, these perpetrators used news outlets and even like tip lines through a website. You know, no direct contact with family, no direct contact even with news people. It was just through a tip line, which to me was very suspect. But maybe, maybe it is even more sophisticated because it's even less traceable. But I guess the question is if there's, if there's no money that goes into a wallet, then there's no money that goes out of that wallet. Can you still find the perpetrator behind that wallet?
- [55:47]
Ari Redboard
It's much harder. What you're looking for really is the ability to see those funds go to an exchange, have that wallet, be transacting with an exchange that would really have that underlying know your customer information. That's how you take that alphanumeric address and associate it with an individual. And that's really your best hope here.
- [56:04]
Ashley Banfield
I, being in the business I'm in, I know that there's often a complaint about budgets and the government is always one step behind the bad guys in technology. Is that true? I mean, I feel like, I feel like it's such a cat and mouse game, but where does the government stand in terms of their ability to investigate this kind of crime time?
- [56:22]
Ari Redboard
It's interesting. It's an absolute cat and mouse game and always has been, right? Bad actors have always been early adopters of transformative technology. Whether it's end to end, encrypted messaging apps or emails, or the Internet, or now crypto and AI. I would say that federal law enforcement today are the best crypto tracers in the world. We have a virtual asset unit at the FBI. There is a similar unit at IRS Criminal Investigations, which are some of the best Financial crime investigations in the world. Dea, Secret Service, Postal. Every US Federal law enforcement agency today has a cadre of what I call sort of power users of blockchain analytics tools like trm. And they're the best investigators in the world. I think the problem, like everything else, is we need every investigator who investigates every kind of crime, right? If every crime is a financial crime and the crypto ecosystem is going to continue to grow, every case is going to involve cryptocurrency. And we're going to need more and more resources, more tools, more training. But it's early. And right now we have this cadre of experts across the globe, and that group will grow. But I will say right now, the agencies that are investigating this case, the FBI, for example, has some of the best investigators in the world when it comes to cryptocurrency, and they certainly have the resources. But again, it's just one. It feels like a small piece of a much larger puzzle here.
- [57:43]
Ashley Banfield
One of the things I. I mean, listen, it's not a day that doesn't go by that I get some demand for, you know, some scam in my inbox. And I read this fulsome article in the New York Times the other day about a massive operation in Myanmar that is just literally like riddled with cell phones and desks that have people who are actually like slave labor in oftentimes cases. And I wondered if it's easy for the government to spot bad actors that come out of those big centers because they're hammering out hundreds of thousands of communications on a regular basis. So there's a pattern. Is it easy for the government to see if this one or any particular crime comes from one of these major industries?
- [58:26]
Ari Redboard
We are in the midst of what I would call a scam epidemic, certainly in the United States and then globally, where these are not one off scammers. I think you pointed this out beautifully. This is industrialized scamming by criminal networks. Chinese money laundering organizations. These networks have infiltrated the highest levels of the Cambodian government and elsewhere throughout Southeast Asia. There was a really big takedown about a month or so ago against a group called Prince Group, which had connections at the highest levels of the Cambodian government. Shenzi was running this group, and the US Government simultaneously indicted this individual. The US Treasury Department sanctioned Prince Group. And the best part is the US seized and forfeited $15 billion, the largest forfeiture action in US history by a magnitude of 5. So there are things that we can do, and a lot of that is tracing the cryptocurrency transactions to ultimately seize and then forfeit those funds. So there are lots of things we can do to target and take down these scam compounds. But I say all of this to say that, you know, a few years ago, I thought of these as law enforcement issues, right? You get this message on your cell phone, maybe you get scammed, you reach out to law enforcement and they investigate. This is a national, global security problem at this point, and we need to use absolutely every tool. So to your question, is it easy? It is not easy. This is really hard work, but this is the work of like, national security. I believe the White House at the highest levels is engaged with this problem right now. And you look, I'm very hopeful that we're going to bring every resource we have to bear in this country against these types of networks. Because these people, this is wealth transfer. They are stealing from Americans and sending to places in the world that are going to use it against us, that are. You use this money against us. So. So I think we're in the midst of a real epidemic. But I'm starting to see the government really at the highest levels, whether that not just Department of Justice, but the Defense Department and the intelligence community and treasury using tools to go after these bad actors.
- [60:35]
Ashley Banfield
And are organizations like Interpol extraordinarily helpful? Because we all know eventually we're in it together.
- [60:41]
Ari Redboard
I think that's right. I mean, we see, you know, as part of that Prince group action, the UK did a travel ban and a. And their own sanctions against these groups. So we're seeing cooperations amongst, you know, across the globe here. And I think the challenge is just like always, you know, when individuals are in places that are hard to get. You mentioned some of these jurisdictions earlier, the Irans and Russias and North Koreas and Chinas of the world, it's ultimately very hard to make arrests. And my view is arrests should not be ultimately the outcome. It should be, let's take the money back. You know, if we can't make an arrest, put someone in handcuffs, let's at least take their money. And I love the result in Prince Group, where we're able to seize 15 billion. This was a group that was making $30 million a day scamming US citizens. We have got to do everything. Prince group, we have to do everything we can to go after these groups. And there's 10 other Prince groups out there, and we need to go after those as well. So super focused on this. At trm, we think about this all the time. There is a DOJ strike force called the scam, scam compound Strike force that is, that is fully engaged in this work. We see FBI and HSI Homeland Security investigations working these cases. So I'd say there's a lot of focus on this right now. There's also focus on Capitol Hill. You know, what are the authorities, what is the funding that these agencies need? Because this is a huge problem. And you know, obviously we're very focused at trm and my team, a lot of us are former US Federal law enforcement and are very sort of aligned to this mission.
- [62:09]
Ashley Banfield
I'm going to get you to put your prosecutor hat back on from that. Eleven years you spent as a prosecutor. And I know the code is different everywhere, but US Code should kick in if they catch the person or persons who are doing this, especially if they're scamming. That's a federal crime. You're, you know, it's interstate commerce. Right. You're using the Internet to, to, to cheat and lie and steal. What could somebody face for this? Because it's not just the interstate commerce part of it. It's also the obstruction of justice. It's the law enforcement, you know, interfering in a law enforcement investigation into a real crime. What kind of penalties do you think somebody, if caught, could face for doing this to the Guthrie's?
- [62:49]
Ari Redboard
Sure. Oh, the Guthrie case. Got it. That's hard to say. You know, there are federal sentencing guidelines that would likely kick in, particularly if, if any individuals moved across state lines, certainly using the mail in this way, in this case, email, interstate commerce and all of that. So I think you'd have your nexus if, in fact, I was going to start speculating on what's happened here, because I think that the facts become so important. The federal sentencing guidelines are really driven by that. I would say that the person would be facing significant, significant time if, in fact this is a kidnapper who moved someone across state lines and demanded a payment this size.
- [63:28]
Ashley Banfield
So let's just say that it's a scam and there is no kidnapping. Okay, now we're just talking about a parasite who's just trying to terrorize this family and get money out of them. They're still using interstate commerce to do that. And if they're caught, what do you think? And again, I, I believe that if this is a scam, they're not only using interstate commerce to try to extort someone, they're also interfering in law enforcement and obstruction of justice. Right.
- [63:50]
Ari Redboard
I want to do my best to stay away from the facts of this case.
- [63:53]
Ashley Banfield
Let's Just say someone does this to someone else. And I think that's really the lesson here, is that if you are caught doing things like this, this is not a slap on the wrist. It is massive.
- [64:05]
Ari Redboard
It's massive. It's absolutely massive. And it's state, it's local, it's federal, and you're facing all kinds of different, certainly in a high profile case of this kind. And there becomes even more drivers here. So obviously, obviously this person is looking at significant time no matter what has happened here.
- [64:26]
Ashley Banfield
The other issue is there's an element of speed that's required in tracing people who receive illicit cryptocurrency. Getting to those exchanges, getting to those off ramps, whether they're the legitimate off ramps or the illegitimate off ramps. If they get to the illegitimate off ramp quickly, the world's their oyster, right? It's really hard to find them after that.
- [64:49]
Ari Redboard
It is all about speed. That is this entire game you mentioned, sort of the cat and mouse game that's gone on between law enforcement and bad actors for hundreds of years. That's what it now. That's what's happening now. I love this story, so I'm going to just indulge me for a moment. In 1908, the Model T rolled off the assembly line. Ford's Model T for the first time, which really democracy democratized access to automobiles. And that was the same year that the US realized it could no longer rely just on state and local police forces. It needed a nationalized police force. So started the Bureau of Investigation, which is today's FBI. And the reason for that was that bad actors could now move across borders at unprecedented speed and scale. And in those early days, that's what it was. It was a cat and mouse game between the FBI and Bonnie and Clyde and Al Capone and Machine Gun Kel. We're seeing the same thing today happen. Not on roads and in cities, but on blockchains and across cyberspace where you have the FBI and other federal law enforcement with tools to go as fast as they possibly can against bad actors who are moving at the speed of the Internet. And that's really what we're seeing. But to your point, it's all about speed. And it's a race to those off ramps. Because we can see at trm, we have built a tool that can trace every transaction that occurs on a blockchain, but when it moves off chain, that's when law enforcement has to use the tools that they've always used. And it is harder to ultimately find those funds once they're converted into cash or smuggled in some other way.
- [66:23]
Ashley Banfield
Ari, you've just made this so much easier to understand. In a time when I think everybody's very desperate for hope that there's going to be justice in this case, I think you've really helped us to sort of navigate a very complicated and new frontier of criminal enterprise. Thank you so much.
- [66:38]
Ari Redboard
Thank you so much for having me. It's a great conversation.
- [66:41]
Ashley Banfield
Okay. Huge. Huge thanks to Ari Redboard. I feel like I know so much more about crypto and about how, you know what, we actually might be ahead of the bad guys on this one. And I really hope that they can track whoever the hell it is has been torturing the Guthrie family like this. So it's 11:55pm Eastern as I wrap this up, and guess what? I checked in again and there's no activity outside of either Nancy Guthrie's home or Annie Guthrie's home. I cannot for the life of me at 10pm local figure out why the sheriff's department alerted us that there'd be activity there tonight. Usually you do the opposite, you know, but they told us there'd be activity there tonight into the morning. I wonder if it means overnight. Trust me, I'll be on it. I'll watch for it, and I'll come back and report everything to you. Thank you so much for being a part of this. You know how important you are to me. I think I tell you enough. But I really mean it. I can't do this without you. It's us together. And if you remember one thing from this podcast, please remember this. The truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.
- [67:57]
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