“I Predict He’ll Last One Year”: Kohberger’s Prison Reality Could Be Worse Than Death Row

Summary

Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield: Episode Summary

Episode Title: “I Predict He’ll Last One Year”: Kohberger’s Prison Reality Could Be Worse Than Death Row
Release Date: July 9, 2025

In this gripping episode of Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield, host Ashleigh Banfield delves deep into the impending incarceration of Brian Kohberger, examining the multifaceted challenges he is likely to face within the prison system. Joined by seasoned prison consultant Larry Levine, the discussion offers a profound exploration of prison life, psychological impacts, and the broader implications for both Kohberger and the victims' families.

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Introduction to Brian Kohberger’s Incarceration

Ashleigh Banfield sets the stage by expressing her ongoing contemplation of Brian Kohberger's transition into prison life. She emphasizes the stark differences between county jail and state or federal prisons, highlighting both physical and psychological transformations inmates undergo. Drawing from her extensive experience in true crime reporting, Ashleigh underscores the importance of understanding what Kohberger’s life will entail post-conviction.

Ashleigh Banfield: “…when you get sent away to a state prison or a federal prison for the rest of your life, it is very different.” (00:34)

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Insights from Larry Levine

Larry Levine, with firsthand prison experience from eleven different institutions, provides a comprehensive breakdown of what Brian Kohberger's first day in prison will look like. From transportation and initial processing to the psychological toll, Levine paints a vivid picture of the immediate challenges Kohberger will face.

Larry Levine: “…He doesn't know what to expect. And remember, where he's at now is a county jail. It's a detention center. Well, prison is an entirely different world of its own.” (03:29)

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Day One: The Harsh Reality

Levine details the procedural aspects of Kohberger’s incarceration, including strip searches, fingerprinting, and the issuance of an ID card. He emphasizes the swift and often impersonal nature of these processes, which strip inmates of their autonomy from the very beginning.

Larry Levine: “They’re going to strip search him, make him cough. They’re going to look up his butt, make sure he doesn’t have a machine gun in there or anything.” (04:10)

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Psychological Impact and Isolation

The conversation shifts to the profound psychological effects of long-term incarceration. Levine predicts that Kohberger will face severe anxiety and potential physical harm from other inmates, a phenomenon often referred to as "jailhouse justice."

Larry Levine: “I predict within a year or less that he's either going to be dead or he's going to be physically injured in some way.” (08:11)

Ashleigh probes deeper into the nature of protective custody (PC) and its implications for a high-profile inmate like Kohberger.

Larry Levine: “He’s going to have to watch his back. He’s not a scary guy. He may end up being someone’s target.” (07:30)

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Life Inside Prison: Daily Struggles and Limited Choices

The discussion highlights the monotonous and restrictive nature of life in prison. Levine envisions Kohberger's existence as one dominated by limited freedoms, repetitive routines, and constant surveillance.

Ashleigh Banfield: “…it’s like living in your bathroom for the rest of your life and you’re only getting out a few hours a day or a few hours a week.” (06:22)

Levine expands on the lack of meaningful interaction and opportunities for personal growth, emphasizing the bleakness of a life sentence without parole.

Larry Levine: “He’s in limbo for the rest of his life. That is his life.” (15:49)

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Potential for Abuse and Mental Health Concerns

Exploring the darker aspects of prison life, Levine warns of the dangers Kohberger might face from both inmates and the prison system. He discusses the possibility of contraband smuggling and the mental health challenges that come with prolonged isolation.

Larry Levine: “People lay awake and they can’t sleep. Every little fucking noise and the pipes in the wall, everything freaks them out.” (32:56)

Ashleigh raises concerns about the adequacy of psychological support and the risk of self-harm among inmates facing life sentences.

Ashleigh Banfield: “I keep wondering about the first night that Brian Coburger is going to lay his head on the pillow in his new... lockup.” (30:26)

Larry Levine: “If it was me and I got a life sentence... I would just tell them to give me the needle. I’d say goodbye to everyone.” (34:15)

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Future of Prison Systems and Long-Term Incarceration

Looking ahead, the conversation touches on potential changes within the prison system over the next few decades. Levine speculates on increased automation, reduced human interaction, and further restrictions aimed at minimizing costs and managing inmate populations more efficiently.

Larry Levine: “Everything is gonna change. They’re going to automate a lot of processes... they’re going to give you like an energy bar that has all your nutrition in it.” (27:30)

Ashleigh envisions a future where inmates like Kohberger will face even more dehumanizing conditions, questioning the sustainability of current prison reforms.

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Concluding Thoughts: Retribution and Justice

Ashleigh wraps up the episode by reflecting on the impact of Kohberger’s incarceration on the victims' families. She emphasizes the quest for retributive justice and the hope that understanding the harsh realities of prison life can offer some solace to those affected by his crimes.

Ashleigh Banfield: “There’s a lot of retribution there, right? Maybe not complete retributive justice, but there’s a lot of retribution there.” (34:22)

She expresses gratitude to Larry Levine for his invaluable insights, reinforcing the episode’s theme that true crime and its ramifications extend far beyond the courtroom.

Ashleigh Banfield: “You never get away with this stuff. You don’t. You don’t get away with murder. You just don’t.” (36:08)

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Final Reflections and Community Appreciation

In her heartfelt closing remarks, Ashleigh acknowledges the support of her listeners and reiterates the podcast’s commitment to delivering unfiltered and serious true crime discussions.

Ashleigh Banfield: “Remember my motto, the truth isn’t just serious, it’s drop dead serious.” (37:00)

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Key Takeaways:

• Immediate Challenges: Kohberger will face a rapid and often dehumanizing transition from county jail to state prison, marked by strict protocols and limited autonomy.

• Psychological Impact: Long-term incarceration can lead to severe mental health issues, heightened anxiety, and a sense of hopelessness.

• Prison Dynamics: High-profile inmates are at significant risk of abuse from other inmates, leading to potential violence or isolation.

• Systemic Issues: The prison system is evolving towards increased automation and reduced human interaction, raising concerns about the future treatment of inmates.

• Retributive Justice: The episode underscores the importance of justice for victims' families and the broader societal implications of true crime.

This episode of Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield offers a sobering and detailed examination of the harsh realities faced by those sentenced to life imprisonment, using Brian Kohberger’s case as a focal point. Through expert insights and compassionate discussion, Ashleigh provides listeners with a deeper understanding of the intricate dynamics of the prison system and its profound effects on both inmates and the families of victims.

Transcript

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[Ashley Banfield]

9.

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[Larry Levine]

Foreign.

[Ashley Banfield]

Hi everybody. I'm Ashley Banfield and this is drop dead serious. I have not been able to stop thinking about Brian Coburger's new life. I get it. It's not like he hasn't already been locked up for the last two and a half years. However, I will say this. Things are very, very different, both physically and mentally. When you get sent away to a state prison or a federal prison for the rest of your life, it is very different. There's so many things that I've learned over the course of my, I don't know, three, four decades. Who's counting in this business? But when I met Larry Levine, I started to learn way more than I thought existed about prison life because Larry has lived it. He's been in 11 different institutions. Institutions. And he took his knowledge when he got out and he did what we all hope, you know, inmates will do. Make something of your life. Right? He did. He made something of his life. And he runs a business now where he trains people who are going to prison for how to be an inmate. Right. How to get through the system, what to expect, what not to fear, what to fear. Like the Martha Stewart's of the world. Love this guy. Because they don't know what's coming. And Larry knows. And so Larry has a business called Wall Street Prison Consultants. And he has written a couple of books, very good books. Latest one is Prison Politics 101 Mastering the Art of Survival. The book before that was Lies My Lawyer Told Me. And when I thought about Brian Kohberger's new life post, admitting and confessing to his horrendous murders of those four kids in Idaho, I wondered, what's it going to be like for him? Not only day to day, but day one, night one. But I also wondered psychologically what it takes and what hits you. You're like, what goes through your mind when you are facing the rest of your life in a box? No opportunity for parole. They call it toe tag parole, right? You're not going out unless you got a tag on your toe in a pine box. But there's so much at stake and there's so much protocol and there's so much, like, logistics that come into play. Sentencing, which by my watch is coming up pretty soon. Right. It's the end of this month. So I thought, I'm going to give Larry a call and ask him about everything, everything that Bryan Kohberger is about to go through in his new life as an inmate for life. And here's our conversation, Larry. If there's anybody who can lay out for me what Bryan Kohberger is about to face just on day one, just on the transfer date when he goes from the county jail to a state prison. Walk me through day one.

[Larry Levine]

All right. Well, they're going to grab his ass out of the county jail probably at dark 30, whatever time, put him on a transport bus. Maybe there's some other county jail inmates going to state prison. His whole way there, Anxiety, his heart's going to be beating. He doesn't know what to expect. And remember, where he's at now is a county jail. It's a detention center. Well, prison is an entirely different world of its own. So as the bus is rolling down the highway and he gets closer and closer, his anxiety level is going to go up finally.

[Ashley Banfield]

Does it really? You know, you can feel that, you know that it's getting closer.

[Larry Levine]

Ash, I've been in 11 different prisons, remember? I know. I know what goes through your head. Yeah. You can see it from a distance because this is a maximum security. He's not going to a kiddie camp somewhere so good mile away. I mean, you're gonna see the wall, the fence, whatever it is. And as you get closer, that wall is gonna get bigger and it's gonna get taller, and he's going to realize, I'm going to be here for the rest of my life, which I don't think will be that long because I think somebody's going to kill him probably. But he's going to know that that's his new home for the rest of his life. They're going to bring him in, they're going to strip search him, make him cough. They're going to look up his butt, make sure he doesn't have a machine gun in there or anything. And then they're going to bring him into what's called r D. Receiving and discharge. They're going to fingerprint him. They fingerprint everybody because they have to make sure it's really him, even though they know it's him. They'll fingerprint him, they'll take his picture. They'll give him an ID card, and they're going to run him through orientation where they're going to talk to him about the institution. They're going to give him some uniforms, probably saying. Probably because I've seen it different ways at different facilities. They're going to give him a physical, find out what kind of medical condition he's in. And it'll probably be the quickest physical he's ever had in his life because they're not going to run through a bunch, really, but they'll do that.

[Ashley Banfield]

What do they do? Tell me. What. What do they do? What's. What's the physical? What. What are they going to run them through?

[Larry Levine]

Okay, well, you know, they're going to check your heart, they're going to check your blood pressure. They're going to ask you if you have any medical conditions. They're going to look in your ears and your throat. They're going to look in your nose. They're going to ask if you have problems going to the bathroom. Are you constipated? He'll probably be constipated when he gets there, just from nerves. They're going to run him through, like, a whole checklist, just like you went to the doctor they're going to run or anybody. They're going to run through all this and they're going to determine what his physical condition is. And because you may end up having a. I say may because they may have him in isolation, Larry? Maybe, yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

Is it like. Is it like a medical exam room that we all go into for the physical, or is it something very frightening and clinical and gray?

[Larry Levine]

Okay. It's like you're going into a medical exam room, except they don't have all the shit along the walls. They've got a door that locks, and there's a place for a cop to sit there with the nurse or whoever. It's like a sparse room, but it has an examination table on it, so it's very, very brief. He's not really going to be left alone in there. Although I suppose if they had you, they could use it as a holding cell. But they'll run him through this, and then he gets to meet the shrink. That was always my favorite part, because I'd fuck with the shrinks endlessly. So he's going to meet the shrink and they're going to ask him, do you have problems sleeping? Do you wet the bed? Do you have bad dreams? Do you want to kill anybody? I loved it when they asked me, do you want to kill anybody here? And I go, where here? I'd look around the room. I say, well, I don't see anybody here I want to kill. She goes, would you tell me if you were going to? I go, no, but anyway, so they'll run him through the psychological test, they'll run him through the medical test. Then they need to classify him, which is actually pretty easy to do because he's never fucking getting out. So what's really to classify? Gee, they may PC him. You know what PC is? Protective custody.

[Ashley Banfield]

Protective custody.

[Larry Levine]

Well, my sources within the inmate rumor mill say that, you know, the families are upset that he took a plea and they're not going to kill him. Well, the rumor is, among people that I know that he's going to get some jailhouse justice. You know what that is? Someone's got.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, I know what I think it is, but you give me the real story.

[Larry Levine]

Jailhouse justice means that someone's going to kill him in there. Somebody is going to want to get taken in. First of all, the majority of these people, Ash, they're never getting out. They're not. They're serving life sentences. They're serving 30 years. They're not really getting out. Okay, what do they do? They can't lock them up again. So somebody is going to want to get a name for themselves, and they'll put out a hit on him, they'll kill him. He. They'll get a lot of what's called street cred for doing that, a lot of respect. And it's possible that someone on the outside could pay someone who has a family member, let's say a family member of one of the dead kids knows somebody that knows somebody who knows someone in there. So some money changes hands and they put a hit out on him, and, you know, they turn him off like a light switch. He's dead. He's gonna. He's a target, a perpetual target. He's gonna have to watch his back. He's not a scary guy. He may end up being someone's. For all we know, someone will put a wig on him. Who knows? But the guy.

[Ashley Banfield]

Let me ask you this, because I also think jailhouse justice isn't just that he's got a hit on him to kill him. It's also that somebody wants to shank him. So he knows what it felt like, what he did to the kids.

[Larry Levine]

Could be. Remember that these people in there, none of them. Well, I shouldn't say none of them, a great deal of them are not mentally stable anyway, so that's highly possible. Maybe somebody will shiv him or something. That is part of jailhouse justice. I've seen people get stuck before. I've been in three different prison riots, so I've seen all this. But I predict within a year or less that he's either going to be dead or he's going to be physically injured in some way. Then they'll transport him, take him to a real hospital and they'll let him stay there and get well and all this bullshit. Finally, they'll move him back over to the prison, back to Boise, and he'll be in protective custody for the rest of his life because they won't be able to put him in general population. They're going to consider that like a threat, a threat to the institution itself. I mean, it is what it is. I sent him in my book.

[Ashley Banfield]

You know, I wonder. Let me ask you. Prison Politics 101. Let me ask you this, Larry. And by the way, Everybody, Prison Politics 101 is just one. I already mentioned this in the intro, but it's one of Larry's books. He has another one, Lies My Lawyer Told Me. He's got a whole array, all great reading from somebody who's lived it, Walked in the Shoes. But Larry, I thought if you were on death row, he would effectively be sort of in PC. He's not on death row. So how. What kind of PC would he be in considering he's so high profile? But he is a lifer.

[Larry Levine]

He's a lifer. So they're not going to put him on death row, but they have. Even within a maximum security facility, death row sits by itself because those people have limited contact with people. They're not going out to the yard or anything. I mean, there's a possibility that Coburger can go out to the yard with a bunch of other lifers, a bunch of other people serving 40 years. But putting him in PC means that he's going to be living in a cell, essentially. Imagine living in your bathroom for the rest of your life and you're only getting out a few hours a day or a few hours a week and you're going nuts and you're living. I don't know if they have TVs in there or not, but the only solace you have is maybe your knockoff Sony Walkman radio or something you're reading. He's reading my book, whatever. Getting magazines, newspapers. So he's going to have a hectic life. I mean, he'll also get. And I talked to you about this at one point on one of the Episodes on News Nation. He's gonna get groupies. He's gonna get all the. Remember how Charlie Manson had all these women?

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[Larry Levine]

9.

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[Ashley Banfield]

He already has them. Yeah, he already had them in the Moscow lockup. There was already this group of crazy and. Listen, they're still there. They think that somebody else did it. They think he's innocent.

[Larry Levine]

Yeah, well, could be, but what do I know? But the point is.

[Ashley Banfield]

No, no, not. He committed the murders and he had. He admitted it in court.

[Larry Levine]

Okay, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I believe he did it. But who knows? A spaceship could land also outside your house. But at any rate, he's going to have all these groupies. A shitload of groupies. They're going to want to marry him, they're going to want to have his baby, they're going to want to try to help him escape. They're going to put money on his commissary books. So in one aspect, on the outside, he's going to have a following of people that think he's a celebrity. The people on the inside are going to think he's a piece of shit. He can't do. I mean, look at. Let's use Diddy as an example. Diddy has money. He has influence. He could help people out on the inside. He's making friends. I'm sure of it. What could Brian Kohlberger possibly do for anyone on the inside? Nothing. Zero people. Zero. And hell, maybe he'll have some money left over in his trust account after they kill him. And that could go to the victim's families. They'll put it in a victim's fund. That's what I see.

[Ashley Banfield]

You know, it's funny when you say, what can he do? What can he offer anybody? Even Murdoch could offer legal help to fellow inmates. He could say, look, I'll work on your appeal for you. He's valuable. He has value for the rest of his life to every inmate that walks through that facility. But Coburger has criminal justice. I don't know what that's going to do for anybody who's already locked up.

[Larry Levine]

Well, I suppose that means he could get a job or he could have gotten a job at one point. Is working in psychology or something, examining why people commit crimes. I know that a lot of prison workers have criminal justice degrees. I think they only do that so they can get promoted. You know, it's like people actually, they get political science degrees. You always ask people, what are you taking? Well, I'm going to get a bachelor's in political science. What are you going to do with it? I mean, what's he going to do with his degree? And people that are serving forever like him, they don't have the same programming needs that people have when they're getting out. So they're not going to spend the money to run him through all these programs to rehabilitate him and make him a better person. He's like, essentially, he's in limbo for the rest of his life. That is his life. Getting out a few hours a day, living in his bathroom, taking a shower and going back to the bathroom. That's it. That's all he's going to do. He's got to watch his food. Maybe he'll stick some glass in his food.

[Ashley Banfield]

Really?

[Larry Levine]

Maybe. Oh, sure, that happened. People put gravel, they put pieces of glass, they put pieces of wood, they put, like, rat poison and cleaning chemicals. Yeah, you can always get to someone. Absolutely.

[Ashley Banfield]

Is that. That's people in the kitchen staff, the people who are doing the cooking.

[Larry Levine]

That.

[Ashley Banfield]

They're the ones that do that.

[Larry Levine]

Well, there's inmates. Inmates essentially run the prison, all prisons. And they're moving food around. Other than doing custody work, inmates are doing maintenance. The guys coming by with the library cart, shoving books at you or something. So people have access to people. You know, somebody needs to carry that contract out. They need to do the hit. Somebody pays somebody off, they give them commissary. They put money on their books. Yes. Slip this in cold burgers, food. It could be done. Absolutely. Hell, if I was there, I'd do it.

[Ashley Banfield]

Let me ask you this, Larry. I mean, listen, I think all of us would like a little vengeance on behalf of those families. Certainly. I have this question about. I go back to the day one of walking into the rest of your life. But I thought about all the people who handle him, whether they're administrators or the medical staff or the guards who are going to walk him in his shackles. Are they dispassionate about each inmate and each inmate's history? Or do some of these guards say, hey, this one's for Steve Gonzalez and shove them. Like, how do they behave?

[Larry Levine]

Well, they'll treat them like shit. It's kind of like when you get people that are child molesters and they come into a prison and every child molester says, kiddie porn. I'm there for drugs. I'm there for mail fraud, stock fraud, whatever it is. Nobody wants to admit what they're there for, so they make something up. Meanwhile, the cops hate these people, too. The cops want to get to them, but they can't do it. So the cops will drop a dime to the inmates and say, yeah, that's what this guy is here for. Because they know that the inmates will take care of him. But, Ash, how can this guy hide? Because everybody fucking knows who he is. Enough people hate him.

[Ashley Banfield]

There's no hiding.

[Larry Levine]

They had to move Chris Watts out of where? He took him out of state. I think it was Colorado out of state.

[Ashley Banfield]

Hey, by the way, about that, about that, I talked to a prison warden on my News Nation show, and the prison warden, he's a retired prison warden, said he did not believe that Idaho has the funds nor the savvy to protect someone of his ilk and that they will contract him out to a different state. Do you think that'll happen?

[Larry Levine]

Yeah, it could happen. That's. But, you know, that's a subjective opinion. They could create a cell. He's not the only person serving life in Idaho, or he won't be. So he's the only person like, well, remember, this is a maximum security. This isn't a low, this isn't a medium. This isn't a kiddie camp somewhere. So they're set up to hold people that are serving max or life sentence or maximum life sentences, death row. So I believe they do have facilities there. But, you know, Idaho is a small state. So who's to say that some of these correctional workers don't have family or know people that know the parents or know the family of these dead kids, and perhaps they'll look the other way. Happens all the time. You can do people.

[Ashley Banfield]

So. But is that. Is that. That sort of lends credence to what this former warden said, that he doesn't think that Idaho can really do the job. And maybe it's because it's so small and that there is a one degree of separation. Maybe it's for. Because of budgets. It's a small tax base. Do you think that Brian Coburger will be contracted out to another state?

[Larry Levine]

Well, they could send them to the feds, too. The feds have a Compact agreement with all the different state prisons to hold high security inmates. Maybe they'll send them to adx. You know what that is in Colorado? The maximum security.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, the supermax.

[Larry Levine]

The supermax. Super super max Possibility they'll send him there, but that's like where they have the al Qaeda people and the 911 people and all this shit is cold.

[Ashley Banfield]

And Jahar Sir Nayev, the Boston marathon bomber to Harsh or Naev. Is that the supermarkets?

[Larry Levine]

Is Colberger really a threat to the inmate population? Think about that. He has a following on.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, somebody said to me yes. Somebody said to me, yes. Because what's he got to lose? If he's enjoying what he went through, maybe he wants to do it again and. And somehow come off with the perfect in house murder in prison. And maybe the first one that was never solved. You just don't know what's he got to lose? What are they going to do, punish him?

[Larry Levine]

I suppose that's possible. But he's subject to controlled movement. They're gonna shake his cell down all the time. People are going to be watching him. It's not like he's just fucking roaming free out on a prison yard. That's really where that kind of stuff would happen. Where you're cornering somebody in the showers. What you do is you take like a pair of socks and you put a bunch. Yeah, a pair of socks. You put some padlocks in them, you put some bars of soap and boom, you bounce it off his head, split it open like a watermelon or something. But he's not going to have the type of freedom essentially for that to happen. Could it happen? Sure. Is it likely to happen? No.

[Ashley Banfield]

So I get this image as you're saying this and I'm thinking I look at Kohberger and his psychosis as like Hannibal Lecter. He's very bright and manipulative, conniving, strategic. And I almost think that this would be his lifelong puzzle how to pull off the next perfect crime. And I wonder what it will be like for the prison guards. Do they enter his cell differently than someone else who is not quite as bright, is just dangerous. Generally this guy's dangerous in a strategic way.

[Larry Levine]

Okay. They have protocol when they enter a lifer sentence. They've got a little hatch. What's that?

[Ashley Banfield]

So start that. We'll start that again.

[Larry Levine]

Okay. On the door of the cell. It may. I don't think it's going to be bars. It'll probably be a steel door. That's what they're going to. There's a metal hatch. It's a horizontal hatch where they could shove a food tray through. But what they'll do is they'll have him back up to the door with his hands behind his back, and they'll reach in there and they'll handcuff him before they take him out. So every. That's protocol for someone serving a life sentence or on death row. So they'll pull him out and he'll already be restrained before he even leaves the cell. So, I mean, they'll have this guy under close control. I don't think they're going to put leg chains on him. It's. It's controlled movement. Completely controlled movement.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, so he's going to have a lot. That former warden with whom I spoke on on News Nation said that he will be in leg shackles, more than likely for all of his movements. Hand and leg shackles for all of his movements.

[Larry Levine]

Well.

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[Larry Levine]

Where is he gonna go, Ash? He's gonna be showers secured. He's gonna be in a secured housing unit. The shower is within the secured housing unit. So if they've got the guy all shackled up, handcuffs and such behind his back, they take him over to the shower. He can't get out of that housing unit. There's just no way to get out of there. So what is the purpose of putting a leg shackle on him? If they were moving him, though? Let's say they were moving him to taking him out of the prison to go see a doctor or something. Taking him to a court date. Yeah, they would definitely.

[Ashley Banfield]

You know what I think the purpose is? I don't think the. I don't think the purpose is for escape. I don't think that's the concern when it comes to Brian Coburg. I think it's for the protection it is. Well, maybe part of that, but also keep him under control. Tell him who's boss, you're no longer running the show. And also to protect those around him, because I do see him as Hannibal Lecter. I do see that he could do something to people around him. Maybe not escape but do something horrendous to someone else.

[Larry Levine]

I suppose it's possible, but it's kind of hard to do when you're shackled behind your back, isn't it?

[Ashley Banfield]

I agree, I agree, but this is Brian Coburger, who's again, wise enough. I also. What else I see, I also see him feigning being, you know, incapacitated in his cell. And I see him feigning forcing an entry of guards into his cell, after which he could have Adam possibly.

[Larry Levine]

But they'll bring 3, 4, 5 guards over to his cell. They're not going to pop that cell door open with one person. They'll be all set. They'll have their tear gas and they'll have their clubs and such. They know, I mean, these people aren't stupid. They know how to handle high security inmates. So it's not going to be a fucking cakewalk. But you're right, maybe he's going to try to get into their heads. If he's read my book. Let me pitch my book again. I teach inmates how to manipulate prison staff, how to get into the staff's minds, how to get them to do stuff, and they don't even realize it. So the staff, they can be manipulated. So, I mean, sky's the limit for him. He can try whatever he wants. Let's say that somebody is in an institution, a low or a medium, even, somebody at a high, high security, they've got an out date, 10, 15, 20 years, they're getting out, so they want to keep their good time and such. They're not really going to do anything. He's never getting out. He has no good time to lose. He has no parole date coming up. So, you know, based on what you were saying, he can really do anything. What are they gonna do to him? Lock him back up, Give him a life sentence, Put him in the shoe? He's already there.

[Ashley Banfield]

So the other side of the coin is I try to look long term and I imagine he's starting to look long term. I try to look long term at prison reform. Let's just say if he were locked up 40 years ago, how different is it now for someone who was put away 40 years ago and is looking for another? He's still, you know, he's probably only 60 and he's probably going to live another 20. Let's look ahead 40 years, Larry. How much change do you think is going to happen within the prison system about their daily lives and their benefits or their, their, you know, now they get iPads, you know, how Much change do you think is going to happen from now to 20 years, now to 40, 40 years and then to 60? Because I believe he'll be there 60 years till he's 90.

[Larry Levine]

Well, they're already using the iPads for visits, so they've already kind of cut a lot of the visits out where you can call your family member and visit with them all the time. Probably the nutritional values will change. The food they're going to automate, everything's automating. They'll probably build a new cell block or something, a new prison on the grounds where they can have less staff. It'll be like ADX where everything is automated. Less contact with the inmates, maybe more automated medical care. You know, the federal prison system right now is out of money. They're not really giving the inmates the nutritional values they're supposed to. So instead of giving people regular food, maybe in 20 years, 30 years, they're going to give you like an energy bar. This has all your nutrition in it that you need. You're not getting regular food. This is it. They're gonna get rid of all the toilet paper and they're gonna put some kind of bidet in all the cells or something to save money. I believe everything is gonna turn into automation. They'll probably have, well, he's gonna have like a paper mache jumpsuit. They don't want him hanging himself, they want to keep him well, so he could serve his whole sentence. But I believe a lot of these facilities are not going to have cloth uniforms anymore. It's all going to be like biodegradable, disposable clothes. Everything will change. The shoes, the clothes, everything, the visits, you name it.

[Ashley Banfield]

You know, Brian Coburger's first requests upon being put into the Moscow jail was that he was vegan. And the Moscow jail being teeny tiny, still accommodated for his, his vegan diet. Is that a federal law? Is it a state law? Is it a requirement no matter what if you have some sort of dietary restriction? Not religious, just dietary that they have to accommodate.

[Larry Levine]

Not really because that's a personal choice. It's like we don't offer that here. Perhaps when he was in the Moscow jail he wanted to use that as a tool to get transferred. By asking for vegan food and knowing they maybe didn't have it, he wanted to go, he wanted to take a car ride or something, who knows. But they're not bound other than religious, as you pointed out, they're not bound to just give you special food because you want it. If he Had a dietary restriction, he was diabetic or something. They'd have to give him food that met that. But there's people that are in the hospital that are diabetic and they're giving him sugar, Jello and such. So a lot of things just aren't followed. I mean, maybe he'll become friends with somebody and they'll give him some pruno. Colbert will be there getting drunk on Friday night. Who knows? It's possible.

[Ashley Banfield]

You know, I. I keep wondering about the first night that he lays his head on the pillow in his new home for 60 years.

[Larry Levine]

He won't be able to.

[Ashley Banfield]

Wait, Let me ask a question. Let me ask a question. Hold on one second. Because there's cross talk and we won't be able to hear it. So hold on. I keep wondering about the first night that Bryan Coburger is going to lay his head on the pillow in his new, you know, his new forever home, his new lockup. And I remember something you once told me that almost everybody cries.

[Larry Levine]

They do, because the whole realization has hit them, this is what it has come down to. And they can't sleep the first. I slept the first night like a baby because I was fucking guilty as a motherfucker. But people lay awake and they can't sleep. And every little fucking noise and the pipes in the wall, everything freaks them out. And then, you know, this is an old prison in Idaho. Maybe there's rats in the walls and maybe he'll get a little pet or something, I don't know. But he's going to hear all these noises. Then he's going to hear the other inmates. They're going to be assholes banging on the wall. They will. They're going to bang on the wall. They're going to fuck with him and they're telling. They're going to tell him they're going to kill him. They won't have any access to him. They just want to get on, get into his head and with them, I've seen it several times. But this will all come. If he's not on psych meds now, he will be. Give him a couple weeks. But that's one of the things they're going to ask him when he get. When he goes through R D receiving a discharge as far as, like being depressed and such. So maybe they're doping them up now. I had a problem for a while sleeping, and they gave me something called dioxapin. And I took it a couple times, but I had a problem after I did. And I used to play a lot of chess in there. This is before I was sentenced and it made me it with my head. I didn't engage. I couldn't play chess anymore. I couldn't think. So who knows, maybe our friend Colberger will be a zombie or something. It's possible.

[Ashley Banfield]

Oh, but go back to that first night, because I do remember you telling me you could hear. You could hear inmates crying. And the psychology of that, the fear and the smallness of you just overtakes you for that first night.

[Larry Levine]

It doesn't matter how tough you are, doesn't matter who you are. The whole realization that this is what your life is going to be like for the rest of your life. And you work your way through your life almost like from the day you were born and you were a kid right up to that point. And you realize life as you know it is over. There's no more birthdays with family, no more having sex with women. Although maybe some doodle have sex with them, who knows? But there's no real relationships or anything. And he's got no hope. That's what a lot of people, they live to see. Their families, they know they're all getting out. So a person serving a life sentence, their first night in there, it just completely fucks with their head, you know, Maybe he'll try to kill himself. It's possible. It's a scary thought. If it was me and I got a life sentence and I mean, I've never done what he did. If I did today what I did back in the 90s that got me locked up, they'd weld the cell door closed, you know, I'd never get out. But if I was looking at four life sentences or something, I would just tell them to give me the needle. I'd say goodbye to everyone. Well, I had a good.

[Ashley Banfield]

And he doesn't have that choice now, right? He doesn't have that choice, Larry, but to get Covid.

[Larry Levine]

I thought I was dead. I told everyone I had a good. Let me ask you on the other.

[Ashley Banfield]

Side, Larry, let me ask you this. Brian Coburger has no more choices left. He doesn't get to choose anything anymore. And I wonder. You touched it. Maybe he'll try to kill himself, but what's the likelihood? And when will they start backing off? Watching for that? Like they'll do it in the beginning, right? They'll watch you carefully. Suicide watch is probably a likely thing in the beginning. But when do they start backing off?

[Larry Levine]

That they're really not going to. Because remember that a lot of These psychologists, they're contractors coming in, and they're getting paid for every little fucking thing they do. So they'll constantly be checking on him. They're supposed to write a report on him, what his mental state is. I think that's a requirement of people on death row. Well, people serving a life sentence. But then look at Epstein. They were supposed to check on him every, what, two hours or something, and they didn't do it. So some things with Kohlberger will fall through the cracks, but this guy is going to be evaluated and watched for the rest of his life. And Brian Kohlberger's world has changed, and it's going to change even more. I don't know. By August, when they move him to wherever he's touching down, maybe he won't even go to the Larry Maximum center there in Idaho. Maybe they'll take him right out of state. Maybe.

[Ashley Banfield]

Larry, I can't thank you enough. You know how much I appreciate this insight of yours. There's nobody who knows the inside better than you and can really convey it to everybody who hasn't walked in the shoes and may never walk in the shoes. And let's just pray for everybody watching that they don't end up walking in those shoes. Larry, thank you so much for this.

[Larry Levine]

Okay, Ash, good to be with you. Let's pray somebody kills that bastard.

[Ashley Banfield]

I think that's what the families probably would prefer. Thanks, Larry. I love my conversations with Larry Levine. I'm not kidding. That's probably in my career. I've probably talked to him over three dozen times, and I always learn something new each time I talk to him. Like, he told me he was in the military before. I didn't know that. We talked off camera. Like, there's always something new about Larry, but he's got a lot of lived experience, and he's salty as hell, and I love that. But there you go. I don't think that. That the things that Larry just told us, I don't think that's going to be solace for Steve Gonzalez and other family members who, you know, maybe they were happy with the deal, but they're not getting their kids back. And there will never be anything that makes them whole. But at least it's something, right? At least it's something to know. You never get away with this stuff. You don't. You don't get away with murder. You just don't. And anybody who thinks that this deal is somehow the easy way out, when you're 30 years old and you easily could live to 90. Just imagine counting down 60 years. Double the life he's already lived in a box, mostly by himself, eating the same food. Never again wearing clothes that aren't prison issue. Never again using soap that isn't prison commissary. There's a. There's a lot of retribution there, right? Maybe not complete retributive justice, but there's a lot of retribution there. And I hope one day that that gives some kind of peace to to those family members. Anyway, listen, as always, I'm so thankful and fortunate that you're part of this community. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for being a part of Drop Dead Serious. If you're listening. God bless you and thank you. If you're watching, I just adore that you do this. And remember my motto, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.

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