Idaho Student Murders: Who Leaked to Dateline? Kohberger Judge Wants Names!

Summary

Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
Episode: Idaho Student Murders: Who Leaked to Dateline? Kohberger Judge Wants Names!
Release Date: May 16, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling bonus episode of "Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield," Ashleigh Banfield delves into the tumultuous developments surrounding the high-profile Idaho student murders case. Joined by Brian Enten, the Apache County prosecutor, Banfield examines the ramifications of a recent Dateline NBC special that has stirred significant controversy and legal complications just days before the trial.

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The Dateline Leak and Its Consequences

Ashleigh opens the discussion by addressing the unexpected revelations from the Dateline NBC two-hour special, which aired recently and included substantial, sourced information about the case. This leak has ignited a frenzy on social media, eliciting strong reactions from all parties involved.

Ashleigh Banfield [00:05]: "...the biggest thing that was brought up today was the effect of the DATELINE NBC two hour special that revealed so much sourced information about the case last week that suddenly everybody on the case is at Twitter, like freaking out."

Brian Enten expresses surprise yet skepticism about the likelihood of this evidence being dismissed:

Brian Enten [04:28]: "I would be shocked, Ashley, if those pieces of evidence got excluded from the case. They're obviously big parts of the case. I can't see the judge throwing those pieces of evidence out."

Legal Implications and Potential Defense Motions

The leaked information has prompted defense attorney Ann Taylor to consider filing motions to either dismiss the charges or exclude the leaked evidence, arguing that the jury pool has been tainted by the publicized details.

Ashleigh Banfield [05:57]: "I would not be surprised if Brian Kohberger's defense team, Ann Taylor, the lead, put in a motion to have all of that evidence excluded as a curative measure..."

However, Enten maintains that dismissing such critical evidence at this late stage is improbable:

Brian Enten [12:17]: "I won't be surprised either. But I would be surprised if he threw it out this late in the game. And it's important stuff. I mean, it seems, you know, it's critical to the case."

Challenges in Jury Selection

The judge, Judge Hipler, has expressed concern over the impact of the Dateline leak on jury selection, emphasizing the need for an investigation into the source of the leak. This situation exacerbates the already complex process of selecting a "death-qualified" jury—jurors willing to consider the death penalty.

Brian Enten [05:08]: "Is it going to make it more complicated finding a jury? Yes."

The duo discusses the stringent conditions set for jurors, including the possibility of sequestration, which could further limit the available jury pool.

Brian Enten [07:03]: "...you're going to have to give up their lives for three months. And he gave the schedule today, 8:30am to 3:45 in the afternoon..."

Protection of Victims and Witnesses

In response to online harassment faced by the surviving roommates, Judge Hipler has implemented measures to protect their testimonies. While their testimonies will be heard through audio feeds, their appearances will remain concealed to prevent further victimization.

Brian Enten [22:11]: "...their portions will not be on the live stream...he is going to reserve two seats in the courtroom for them."

Trial Preparations and Logistical Considerations

The trial, set to commence on August 11th, is slated to last three months, a notably lengthy duration compared to other high-profile cases. The prosecution has prepared an exact scale model of the crime scene, referred to controversially as the "Dollhouse," to assist in presenting evidence.

Brian Enten [38:10]: "They have created an exact model of the house, like a replica that's already in the courthouse..."

Defense Representation and the Principles of Justice

Ashleigh and Brian engage in a thoughtful conversation about the role of defense attorneys in upholding the principle of innocent until proven guilty. Ashleigh shares a poignant anecdote about a wrongful conviction, underscoring the importance of a robust defense.

Ashleigh Banfield [33:18]: "...How do you defend those people? Like, it's a question we all wanna ask a defense lawyer... you have to believe in those principles."

Enten reflects on the delicate balance attorneys must maintain, especially in high-stakes cases involving the death penalty.

Brian Enten [33:48]: "...criminals are, you know, they deserve a right to representation and innocent until proven guilty."

Closing Thoughts

As the trial approaches, both Ashleigh and Brian express their apprehensions and hopes. Brian highlights the emotional toll on the families involved and the challenges posed by the trial's length and complexity. Ashleigh emphasizes the necessity for a fair and transparent judicial process, advocating for public trust in the legal system.

Ashleigh Banfield [36:32]: "...three months, I feel like that's quick..."

Brian Enten [37:05]: "...to me, it almost doesn't feel real yet that it's actually..."

Ashleigh concludes by commending Brian's empathetic approach and dedication to uncovering the truth, setting the stage for an intensive and closely-watched trial.

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Key Takeaways

• Dateline NBC's recent special has leaked substantial case details, challenging the integrity of the upcoming trial.
• Judge Hipler is investigating the source of the leak, enforcing a strict gag order to preserve the trial's fairness.
• The defense may seek to exclude leaked evidence, potentially complicating jury selection and trial proceedings.
• Jury selection for a death penalty case in Idaho faces heightened scrutiny and logistical challenges due to public exposure.
• Protective measures have been implemented to shield the surviving roommates from online harassment during their testimonies.
• The trial's extensive duration and detailed preparation reflect the case's complexity and high stakes.
• Upholding the "innocent until proven guilty" principle remains central, despite overwhelming public sentiment and evidence.

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Notable Quotes

• Ashleigh Banfield [00:05]: "...DATELINE NBC two hour special that revealed so much sourced information about the case..."

• Brian Enten [04:28]: "I would be shocked, Ashley, if those pieces of evidence got excluded from the case."

• Ashleigh Banfield [05:57]: "I would not be surprised if Brian Kohberger's defense team... put in a motion to have all of that evidence excluded..."

• Brian Enten [22:11]: "...he is going to reserve two seats in the courtroom for them."

• Ashleigh Banfield [33:18]: "...How do you defend those people?... you have to believe in those principles."

• Brian Enten [37:05]: "...to me, it almost doesn't feel real yet that it's actually..."

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Conclusion

This episode of "Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield" offers an in-depth exploration of the intricate legal battles and media influences shaping the Idaho student murders case. Through engaging dialogue with prosecutor Brian Enten, Banfield provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of the challenges ahead, emphasizing the enduring principles of justice and the profound human impacts intertwined with the pursuit of truth.

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Stay tuned for upcoming episodes every Thursday as Ashleigh Banfield continues to unravel mysteries and injustices with depth and dedication. Don’t forget to subscribe to never miss a bonus episode!

Transcript

[Ashlee Banfield]

Hey, everybody, I'm Ashlee Banfield and this is drop dead serious. I always say it. I say make sure you subscribe so that you never miss a bonus episode. And I mean it, because this is a bonus episode on something that happened in Idaho today. I had to talk to you about it. I had to talk to Brian Enten about it. So this was supposed to be the, the last hearing in the Coburger case before the trial starts this summer. And it was not. It was not. Because of all the things that were brought up in the hearing, the biggest thing that was brought up today was the effect of the DATELINE NBC two hour special that revealed so much sourced information about the case last week that suddenly everybody on the case is at Twitter, like freaking out. Ann Taylor, Brian Coburger's lawyer, not happy about what was revealed in the DATELINE documentary the judge in the case, Judge Hipler, not happy that there is a leak that somehow evidence in this case leaked despite an airtight gag order. Right. It's been two and a half years we've been under this gag order. We barely found out anything. We always have to wait for a court document to drop for us to really get, you know, legitimate information. But DATELINE was just filled with details. Let me just go over a couple in case you didn't see it or if you need a refresher. DATELINE had images from Bryan Coburger's phone, images of college girls from Washington State University and Idaho, University of Idaho. Some talk that there are connections between those girls and the victims and in the house. Also video surveillance video of the white car circling 1122 King Road on the night the murders actually happened. Back and forth, coming back and almost making a, a bunch of different circles around the house. Chickening out, coming back, chickening out, coming back. DATELINE had those images. How about this? Searches that Brian Coburger allegedly made, searches for porn with really twisted words, connected like forced, passed out, drugged. Also searches that involved Ted Bundy, a serial killer. And not only that, but selfies that Bryan Coburger took of him wearing a black hood after the murders. And then there was his obsession with coverage of the murders at 1122 King Road. These were all the things and more that DATELINE was able to get from a certain source. But who is the source? Well, this hearing today drilled down on that. The judge in the case wants an investigation, a special prosecutor to go over all the people involved in the prosecution and the police, all of their outgoing emails. In fact, the judge said put a freeze, do not delete any of your digital information because we are going to investigate where this information leaked out to dateline. Here's the thing. I talked to a prominent Idaho lawyer who said she would not be surprised if Ann Taylor and the defense team for Bryan Kohberger put a motion forward in this court to say either dismiss these charges because the jury pool's been tainted by all this leaked evidence outside the gag order, or I want that evidence that was listed in the DATELINE documentary thrown out of the trial. Holy cow. Could it be possible that everything we learned in the DATELINE special may end up being pulled from the case because it wasn't supposed to be leaked? All really good questions as well as what can we expect? Because they're down to the nitty gritty on planning for the trial this summer. I had a very extensive conversation with Brian Entin about it. He here's our chat. So, Brian, you know, what are the odds that this DATELINE special, which we all were so engrossed by. Right. Just the details in it. What are the odds that those details may come back to sort of smack the actual case, that there's a possibility those pieces of evidence might actually get excluded from the case?

[Brian Enten]

I mean, I would be shocked, Ashley, if those pieces of evidence got excluded from the case. They're obviously big parts of the case. I can't see the judge throwing those pieces of evidence out. Is it going to make it more complicated finding a jury? Yes. And it was already going to be hard because so many people know about this case, not only around the country, but especially in Idaho. And the judge pointed out in his motion that he filed when he was, he was so upset, saying he wants basically wants an investigation. He pointed out that it's gonna cost taxpayer money. He said what DATELINE did is going to cost the taxpayers of Lato county because he thinks it's gonna make jury selection that much harder.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Yeah. You can't blame dateline. I mean, we're journalists, right. You stick a gag order on a case that is of such massive public importance, you're just gonna force us to try to get sources elsewhere. I mean, it's another argument against gag orders because it causes this problem. But then again, I guess the information that was released is the information they wanted gagged. It's sort of a catch 22. But so I did read a comment from Edwina Alcox, who's a regular attorney that we interview on my News Nation show that she and as an Idaho attorney, she said, I would not be surprised if Brian Kohberger's defense team, Ann Taylor, the lead, put in a motion to have all of that evidence excluded as a curative measure to try to fix the jury pool tainting that just happened with that two hour special.

[Brian Enten]

Yeah, and I'm sure they will. I mean, they've put in motions to have all of the evidence excluded already. They're looking for any little thing they can. I guess what I just think back to. And you've covered a gazillion, you know, jury selections. I mean, they're going to find people who don't know all of those details, hopefully whether this stuff was on Dateline or not. And that was a big part of what they talked about in the hearing that I was in today here in Boise, Idaho, and is, you know, they're going to create this juror questionnaire. So not the voidere, but before that, when they're going to bring these pools of jury potential jurors in, they're going to give them a questionnaire that they're going to fill out to weed them out from the very beginning. And then those questionnaires are going to go back to these rooms in the back where the defense and prosecution are, and they're just going to immediately start weeding people out. So is this going to make it harder? Yes. But do I think they. I mean, I think they can find jurors. They find him for all these cases. I mean, we're in the crime world, we're obsessed. There's a lot of people that are just going about life around here that have probably just heard of Bryan Kohberger and that four college kids were killed. But beyond that, they don't know all the ins and outs.

[Ashlee Banfield]

You're right. You're absolutely right. And that's something that I always bring up with the gag order issue. I think, look, you know, you assume that every piece of information is going to be gobbled up by the entire population and the jury pool. That's not always the case. There's a lot of people out there who watch Zero True Crime. I don't know who they are, but. But I. But I do think that finding a jury in this particular case in Idaho is actually going to be hard. It's not about have you heard? Right, because everybody's going to have heard something. It's like O.J. it's, can you be fair? And this is not Diddy. This is not something that doesn't really affect you. This affected everybody. They were so blown away by the horror. It was like a Manson kind of Attack. It was, you know, it was a Truman Capote in cold blood kind of attack. It made no sense. It made us all fear that we could be randomly picked like that. So I feel like there are jurors in Idaho who felt like their innocence was stolen by this. So they're angry. So that it might be harder to find jurors because it comes down to can you be fair? I know you've heard about it, but can you be fair? And I think a lot of them will say no, I want to see him fry.

[Brian Enten]

When there's two other components too that are going to make it really hard. Number one, a three month trial. I mean a three month trial. So you've got to find people that are willing to give up their lives for three months. And he gave the schedule today, 8:30am to 3:45 in the afternoon. And he was entering at 3:45. Cuz if you had errands to run and you had to go to the bank or go to something, you have that hour and then you gotta be back the next day for three months. And then he said, I don't plan on sequestering the jurors, but I'm not gonna rule that out. And he said it a couple of times, he said, I don't wanna say for sure, no, as of now, I'm not planning on it. So that means that if something crazy happens during the trial, which happens where there's a juror that gets some information or something weird happens and he could decide to sequester them like a month in and suddenly they're in a hotel.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Well, let me tell you something. I think it's the worst thing you could possibly do is have a three month trial with sequestered jurors. You're too young to have been around for the OJ case, the nine month sequestration where the jurors were so mad that they were stuck for nine months, they arrived with their verdict under four hours right of deliberations with their bags packed. They arrived at the courthouse to deliver their verdict with their bags packed as a big fu. You know, to, to the system and to the process. I just think you're really limiting your jury pool if you tell them they're going to be sequestered for three months.

[Brian Enten]

Yeah, no fair. And he said today too. Well, if we end up sequestering, we're going to go much longer than 345. Actually. This judge, Judge Hippler, like he means business, like he is a strict, intense man compared to judge, judge in Moscow, who just seemed like a nice guy. And like, I saw him outside the courthouse. Hey, buddy, this guy is like, I mean, you don't break the rules he made. He went through a whole day of rules today. He told the attorneys, you will address each other as Mr. And Ms. Throughout the trial. And I know that this is gonna get tense. It's three months, but you won't forget and you will be polite and you will say Mr. And Ms. For the time. First full three months. He said if you. There was this. He said if you turn the lights off to use the overhead projector, you're not going to turn the lights back on because that's distracting. So you have to make a decision. Do you want the lights off for the day or for a while or do you want the lights on? Like, that's how detailed he was. The seating, I mean, the seating. He, he wants like an exact seating chart. And how, I mean, so this guy is not playing around. That's how. When people are like, oh, do you think the trial's gonna get delayed? Like, like, no, it's not getting delayed. This man is like, he is sticking to the schedule.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Well, I, you know, I get it, but it's death penalty and it's complicated. And you can't just be a stickler for scheduling if there are legitimate issues that come up in a death penalty case, period, end of sentence. You know, you don't want a mistrial based on something you screwed up because you rushed to the courthouse. You don't want a mistrial because you screwed up and you didn't take precaution to make sure that it wouldn't be an appellate issue later, which throws out your long sought after trial result. You think that people are going to be poisoned by dateline? Wait until you have a mistrial and a retrial. Like, ask the Karen Reid jurors and lawyers and judge how frustrating it is for them, you know, to have a retrial based on a trial that was, you know, completely played out already in the public. So, you know, I love the fact that he's a stickler for rules. It's great. But he also has to know there's a death penalty at stake here. So he's just got to accommodate for all of the possibilities. And I really believe, honestly, honestly, Ryan Ann Taylor has thrown in motion after motion that I thought was nuts. And I don't think this one would be nuts if she said that DATELINE has poisoned this pool. I want this evidence pulled from the trial. I'm not I would not be surprised.

[Brian Enten]

Yeah, I won't be surprised either. But I would be surprised if he threw it out this late in the game. And it's important stuff. I mean, it seems, you know, it's critical to the case.

[Ashlee Banfield]

You don't think it might push the start date, though, from the 11th of August?

[Brian Enten]

I really don't. I'm telling you this the way that he is just down to. He is crossing his eyes and crossing his. Ts.net I don't know. I. And the way that they talk today about. He wants to know where the witnesses are staying, what hotels. He wants to know where the lawyers are staying because he doesn't want. He's gonna have a hotel on standby in case he has to sequester. And then with the Airbnbs, where the victims are staying, like, I just don't see them setting all of that up. And you're right. I mean, if a legitimate issue comes up, the law's the law. But he wants. I mean, they've already. What days he's gonna have off. He announced today in the three months, like, he's got it figured out.

[Ashlee Banfield]

I wish he took my summer schedule into.

[Brian Enten]

I know I brought that to him during the lunch break. I said, you know, Ashley's annoyed. Go to Canada.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Okay. The other thing is one of the things he did today to try to accommodate for the Dateline issues, he decided on two additional alternates.

[Brian Enten]

He did so in court. He never mentioned Dateline in court, but you could tell he was annoyed about leaks. And. And he talked about a special prosecutor possibly coming on to investigate what happened. But then he said he was talking about jurors, and he said, I wanna add two more alternates because of what happened on Friday, which Friday was the Dateline episode. And it didn't really click with me at first. I was kinda like, what is he talking? And then I thought about it and I'm like, oh, he's talking about Dateline. Like, he's thinking they need even more of a backup because all this information got out.

[Ashlee Banfield]

You know, in my many, many decades of being a reporter, I have seen my fair share of, you know, preservation of documents requests, right? You basically get an email from your boss, says, don't delete anything. A lawyer has just notified us that we may be sued over a story. So don't delete anything you're not allowed to delete. The other side has said, don't you delete anything because we're going to subpoena emails, et cetera. And it Sounds to me like a request, you know, to preserve digital information. Went out to everybody, the police, the prosecutors, everybody. They all have to preserve their emails, their communications with outside agencies because they want to ferret out who leaked. Do you think, though, honestly, do you think they're going to find anybody in Idaho, anybody with the Idaho system, prosecutors and police, that was the source of the leak?

[Brian Enten]

I'm curious what you think. My personal opinion, I thought about this today is I don't think they're going to figure out it out. I mean, there's so many people that have been involved in this case since the beginning. Moscow pd, remember, FBI set up their crime lab. They brought a whole, like, truck in the whole little city into Moscow. And they were all there. There were all sorts of people. Idaho State Police, you've got Pennsylvania State Police from when he got arrested. So I don't know. I mean, are they really gonna be able to track it down with all those people? I don't. I think it's.

[Ashlee Banfield]

What are you gonna do, search Coburger?

[Brian Enten]

You've had sources. It's like you, you're very careful to protect the people that are giving you information.

[Ashlee Banfield]

You know, Absolutely. You would never email the stuff or text the stuff. You, you have a conversation, you, you meet in a garage, Deep throat style. You know, you don't. Nobody's dumb enough to eat. Well, I shouldn't say nobody's dumb enough, but typically, you know, good sources wouldn't be emailing stuff to a journalist because they know that stuff's traceable. But, but it is just sort of. It is interesting that they're going to try to ferret this out, because I'm thinking, okay, well, what does that do? You're. You're spending a lot of time and treasure finding the source of the league, which you likely never will. And then what?

[Brian Enten]

That or maybe message. Do you think it's to send a message? Look, we got three months to go before this trial. Like, enough. So tight. I mean, I've been reporting on this. I've gotten to know so many. This is not a kind of case where it's been easy to get information. I mean, it's been the worst, hard. These people do not leak in Idaho, so I don't know. Some, you know, it's going to be tricky.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Yeah. Is it ever? I don't think they're going to find the source because I think the source just said something and didn't write something. So preserve all the data that you want, all the emails and texts that you want. I don't think it's going to be in there. Okay, talk to me about this notion in court today where Judge Hipler looked at Brian Coburger's lawyers and said, I get it. And I'm going to paraphrase here, because this is not the judge's, you know, choice words, but I get it. You want to point the finger at someone else to take the heat off of your client, the defendant, Bryan Coburger. You want to point to someone else being the killer. Well, we all know you can't just walk into a courtroom and say, I didn't do it. Brian did it, because it ruins Brian's life. And if you're only just trying to deflect blame off yourself by ruining others, that ain't just. So you have. You have a higher standard than that. And Judge Hippler has a standard for Brian Kohberger's lawyer. So first answer, if you would, Brian, how many alternate suspects are they talking about? One or plural? And then number two, how will we know if they're allowed to start pointing the finger at other people?

[Brian Enten]

Yeah. So they call them alternative perpetrators. That's like the official language here in Idaho. And it's all part of the process. They had until the day before yesterday. They had till yesterday, which would have been Wednesday. Whenever people are listening to this, to file their motion, the defense did, about who they believe the alternative perpetrators could be, they filed the motion. And I kept checking the site, kind of knowing that they were probably going to seal it, because, like you said, you're suddenly putting names out there of people who haven't officially been accused of anything. So they did file it. It came up in court today. The judge acknowledged that he got the filing and said that I wrote this down, said he wants. He said to the defense he wants evidence rather than allegations. So he didn't seem to think that it was a meaty enough motion and enough evidence there to say that these people who they believe could have done it, that weren't Bryan Kohberger, that there was really any evidence. And he said, another hearing now for. I think it's June 18th. It's going to be a secret hearing where the defense can come back and say, you know, here's more info. And ultimately, like, by the way, the, you know, it's not like then they go arrest these people. This. They're just trying to be able to bring it up in trial.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Yeah. And create reasonable doubt. Could have been somebody else. Could have been Dave, you know, could have been Mike, could have been Sarah. I'm making those names up, of course. So here's the thing. I was trying to go back through as much of the evidence as I could remember in the last two and a half years, because, honestly, I feel like I have forgotten more than I remember at this point. And I remember there was evidence of some kind of a blood speck on the hand railing of the staircase inside the home, and it wasn't blood of any of the roommates. So I wondered if that is a basis for one of Ann Taylor's suppositions that whomever had a blood speck on that hand railing could have also been the killer. But it's the hand railing from the. From the bottom floor all the way to the second floor.

[Brian Enten]

It's possible. And I don't know. From what I understand, there's specific names that they've come up with. So it's not just like a theory of, like, oh, it could have been someone because of this, they're naming names, is what I have heard.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Well, could the defense have tested that blood and done a genealogical study and found the owner of it?

[Brian Enten]

Maybe. Yeah. But remember, you know, again, we talked about this when that happened, but, you know, it's a party house. There are a lot of people going in and out. But if you think back, and I don't want to name any names because we've never had any reason to believe that anyone else was responsible, but there were a lot of names that came up in the beginning when you and I were covering this before they arrested.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Bryan Coburger, food truck guy, remember?

[Brian Enten]

Yeah. So, like, they're probably going back through all of that stuff, I would imagine.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Okay, how about the glove? There was a mystery glove that was found outside the home. I believe as well that the defense made hay of maybe the owner of that glove.

[Brian Enten]

Yeah, but think back, and again, he's innocent until proven guilty. I don't want to be like, you know, saying whatever we got to be fair. But, I mean, Bryan Coburger also likes to wear gloves. I mean, that's come out, you know, he wear, you know, he's germaphobe, so I always thought about that with that glove, too.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Well, I'm sure we're not going to find out unless it becomes public record and they are allowed to bring it up at trial because these things will be in a secret hearing, like you said in June. And if the judge says, sorry, you don't have. You don't have anywhere near the kind of supportive evidence to bring up that, you know, assert that in a court of law and ruin those people or that person's life. Forget it.

[Brian Enten]

Yeah.

[Ashlee Banfield]

And that, I guess that would stay. Stay sealed. Maybe after. If there's a conviction of Brian Coburn, maybe after they would unseal that and say, this is what the defense was trying, but we know we've got our guy. I mean, I can imagine that possible.

[Brian Enten]

Yeah.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Okay. The other thing that I was fascinated by, and I don't know quite how I feel about it, I'm trying to put my emotions in check, but Bethany and Dylan, the surviving roommates, have just been so assailed online by trolls and just ne' er do wells and just bottom of the barrel scum who've attacked these victims as being somehow, I don't know, complicit or a part of it. Whatever it is, it's just garbage. And obviously that's very hard for them. And the judge has agreed to limit our ability as the public to witness their testimony. Tell me what the judge decided when it comes to Dylan and Bethany if. When they take the stand.

[Brian Enten]

So he said that their portions will not be on the live stream, so you will not be able to see them unless you're in the courtroom, but the audio feed for them will continue to go out. So you'll be able to hear their testimony if you're watching at your house or you're watching in the overflow room, but you will not be able to see them. He also said that he is going to reserve two seats in the courtroom for them. He considers them to be victims.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Wow.

[Brian Enten]

And if they choose to attend the trial one day or for the whole thing, he's going to make sure that there are two seats reserved for them.

[Ashlee Banfield]

And also they. Even. Even before they testify, they're going to be allowed in the court.

[Brian Enten]

They didn't mention that. That's a good question. Because a lot of times, obviously they don't want witnesses in the courtroom before they testify. He. They didn't bring that up, but he said that he's going to have two seats for them. And it was kind of interesting. So they did. They got through that. And then the defense spoke up and said, oh, but we have people that. We also want the. That we want the video cut for, like people who worked with Bryan Kohberger and then, you know, maybe undercover officers. And it was interesting. The judge. The judge was not very open to that. He said, good.

[Ashlee Banfield]

This is a public. This is a public process. Unless you're a minor, you would have loved.

[Brian Enten]

I actually thought of you when he said. Said this. Ashley.

[Ashlee Banfield]

What?

[Brian Enten]

I'm not going to quote him directly, but he said something like when they started making those requests. Look, the only way the public is going to trust this verdict and believe in this verdict is if they feel like they've been able to watch the process.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Yeah.

[Brian Enten]

Which I really believe, too, you know, so. But it was just interesting because Ann Taylor immediately was like, oh, we got this person and this, you know, and he was just like, you can make a file. But he's like, I'm not. I don't want to do that.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Look, it is. I do. I do fully respect the fact that Dylan and Bethany have just had the boots taken to them, and they are victims. I mean, this will never. They will never be the same. They are. They are damaged for life by what they've been through.

[Brian Enten]

Yeah.

[Ashlee Banfield]

I'm not even talking about the survivor's guilt. I mean, I'm just talking about the hell that the Internet has put them through, the hell that they've witnessed, the hell that they've lived through. You know, But I am a big. I'm a big proponent of an open process and of witnesses taking the stand and saying in open court so that we can see them and trust in what they're saying, what their truth is. Right. Look, you know how we're all animals, us people, we have instincts. How many times have you said, look me in my eyes and tell me that? Because that's how we determine truthfulness. We look for tells, we look for gut instinct, we look for all those things. It's no different on the stand. It's why you take the stand, facing everybody, so that we, as the public can understand if we believe you're telling the truth or not. Right. So I. I do have a problem that for that reason, they're going to hide Dylan and Bethany from the public. I do understand the reason, but I also say, you know, they're not minors, they're adults, and they're important to the process. They are important to the possibility that a man may lose his life over what they say.

[Brian Enten]

Well, that's the day the jury is going to be able to be suspended, sitting right there and see them, and they're the ones who are going to make the decision. So I guess, you know, that's probably what's most important, but it is a slippery slope, I think.

[Ashlee Banfield]

I have great respect for juries, but I believe that we have the right to keep an eye on things a la O.J. simpson case. That jury and what they did and what we discovered 30 years later. That they wanted to, you know, get one for Rodney King. I mean, that's the kind of thing where the rest of us have a vested interest and we have a right to be in there. We're paying the process. It's our process. It's a, it's a government for the people and the court is part of that. So anyway, I, you know, I'll go off on the soapbox forever about that. I also heard somewhere, and I don't know where Judge Hippler came in on this, that at one point he was going to allow Dylan and Bethany to dictate whether or not they should be live streamed. Like if, if, fine, they can be on, but if they decide no, then they won't. Did that go out the window?

[Brian Enten]

No. Yeah, he didn't say that. He just said that he made the decision that they weren't going to be on, that it was just going to be audio, that the thing he was leaving up to them was whether they wanted to take the two seats. That part he just didn't seem to know the answer to.

[Ashlee Banfield]

So today was supposed to be the last hearing before trial, which I thought was weird because trial is still two months away. I mean, jury selection begins, I think, on the 30th. I know as I think it's a Wednesday and it starts on that Wednesday, the 30th. It was supposed to start on the 29th, but that I heard it moved today to the 30th, don't know why. And then jury selections expected to take a couple weeks with trial testimony beginning on Monday, August 11th. Right, that's the schedule so far.

[Brian Enten]

Yeah. So how are you about it first, by the way? Like, have you heard of that? Like, I always thought jury selection started with the first day of the trial.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Well, technically, the first day of trial is literally, Literally the first day of trial technically is jury selection. Right. So when you say the trial begins, it really should be the jury selection. But most of us refer to the trial began when Cassie took the stand or, you know, like the very first witness or something like that. She wasn't the first witness, but. And so the, the evidentiary phase of the trial begins on, on August 11th, where you start getting witnesses, you start seeing exhibits, you start seeing evidence, etc, you get the openings. But jury selections two weeks prior to that. I just don't understand how we're at the la, why they would announce this was the last hearing, because we've got all sorts of issues to sort out before then.

[Brian Enten]

The way I think that came about is because it was the last hearing on the docket and all the media was just seeing it as the last thing before. There's, There was nothing else scheduled before today, so it became kind of a headline, like the last hearing before. Whereas today they've already scheduled another hearing for June and there's probably going to be another here, you know, so I think that it seemed like the last. Because it was the only one posted, you know.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Yeah, yeah. No, I, I sense that we're gonna have. I really do think that Ann Taylor's gonna lodge a complaint, file a motion to have that evidence that was elicited in the Dateline episode thrown from, from the case. But I'm with you. It would be a travesty to see that kind of evidence thrown out just because jurors got to look at stuff. I mean, plenty of cases have gone to air with a lot more when.

[Brian Enten]

There'S no gas order, they see all sorts. I mean, I guess I just don't really follow the. I mean, like, again, will it make jury selection harder? Yes, but, you know, I don't follow the argument of just throwing it out.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Me neither. Me neither. But then again, you know, it is death penalty. And when you, when you've got a case like that, these stakes are really high and things change. And then, you know, the other thing is not everybody understands this, but it's not just picking a jury. It's picking something called a death qualified jury. So in Diddy's case, yeah, you heard all the, you know, the voir dire and everything in Diddy's case, and it took, you know, forever to get to get that jury seated. And that was not a death qualified jury. You're just trying to get biases and, you know, personal histories and background and all the rest. Right. You do all that in Co Burger and you've got to have a death qualified specialist on your team who knows how to elicit from a potential juror if they can condemn a man to death. I mean, it really truly is like, can you look across at a living, breathing person 10ft away from you and say, thumbs down, he dies. And they have to be able to do that.

[Brian Enten]

Yeah. And it was interesting. Like, what you just said made me think of this today. You know, I've seen Bryan Coburger a lot of times, like starting out in Pennsylvania when they made the arrest and then saw him when he got off the plane in Moscow and then went to the hearings in Moscow where you're super close to him and then have been seeing him in Boise and, you know, Moscow, I was so close to him. Here you're still maybe like, 10ft away. But I've noticed, like, so he's got Ann Taylor, who's female attorney, and then he has two other female attorneys, and they sit on each side of him, and they get very close to him, like, almost whisper in his ear. He whispers back. They don't want us to hear what's going on. Before the judge came in, there's a little bit of smiling. They're clearly making a little joke with him or something. And it was just a weird thing to think of him, what he's been accused of. And you're thinking of, gosh, this man could be capable of this. And then, like, sort of seeing him in these just human, normal moments with these women who are sort of, like, humanizing him and just treating him like any other guy on the street. And just when you said the death penalty thing, it made me think of it. Like, I don't know if they do that by design. Like, I know there's not a jury in there yet, but, like, is that part of making you feel like this is just any other guy?

[Ashlee Banfield]

Absolutely, Abs. It's why they're not supposed to be wearing jailhouse jumpsuits into court now, because it just makes them look like criminals right away. You know, I'll tell you something. I have always, always gotten skeeved out by that, because I know we give the presumption of innocence, but when you have overwhelming evidence that there's a Dahmer or there's a Charles Manson at defense table, you can't believe that anybody wants to get close to that filthy skin. You know, and in this particular, a.

[Brian Enten]

Genuine little laughter and a genuine. Like, you know, if I was next to you and I leaned into you to tell you a little something, and just we had our little moment, like, that was happening, and it was weird. Like, I can't help it, it felt weird.

[Ashlee Banfield]

You know, there's a great book that I think was written by Mickey Sherman, who defended Michael Skakel many, many years ago. I think he wrote a book called how do youo Defend those People? And it's like, it's a question we all wanna ask a defense lawyer. Like, you represent the scum of the earth. You know, you represent these guilty people. How do you do this? Like, especially when they're horrible people, and you've always gotta come back to the Constitution and, like, how incredible this country is that we instantly give you the benefit of the doubt and we prove that you're Guilty before we lock you away or we kill you. You know, and so as a lawyer, you really have to believe in those principles. And maybe that's the principle that brings them to, you know, innocent until proven guilty. Even when I'm standing right next to your, you know, skin that I, I may or may not believe. And perhaps, I mean, honestly, Casey Anthony's lawyers believe 100 that she is innocent. At least Cheney Mason does. Right. Thinks she's a great girl. I don't believe she's innocent. I don't think she's guilty of what the many of the prosecutors lined up in that courtroom. But I think, I think she's not. I think she's guilty of, of causing Kaylee's death. I just don't think she was a premeditated first degree, death penalty eligible murder. And so those, those lawyers were able to be very cozy with her. And maybe that's what Ann Taylor feels. But it's hard to look at some of the evidence and see how overwhelming it is. And I'm trying to imagine myself as Ann Taylor and be so snuggly and cozy and put on a really strong face so as. Because already he comes in at a disadvantage. Everybody knows that that's the guy, you know.

[Brian Enten]

Yeah. There was this point, I think it was a couple months ago, where she made this statement in court where she said, like, your honor, he isn't a she, like, made it almost very personal that she believed herself that he didn't do it. So, yeah, I don't know, it was just. And I totally agree with everything you said, by the way. I mean, that's what's great about our country. My dad's a criminal lawyer. Like, I grew up with this stuff. Like criminals are, you know, they deserve a right to representation and innocent until proven guilty. But it's still weird when you're sitting.

[Ashlee Banfield]

There and I don't know that I could do it. Yeah, you know, I don't know that I could do it. I would enjoy the project. I would enjoy the project of defending someone because that's what we do as a society and looking for everything because I did feel very once. I'll give you this one anecdote. I did a story for Dateline when I worked for NBC and it was about this cop in Rhode island who was accused of killing his mistress. Right. He's married, his wife is pregnant. They've got, I think, two or three other kids. And he's got a side hustle. And the woman who's the side hustle is Found dead in her apartment. Her head is bashed in with a jewelry box. And in the apartment is a letter that she has written saying, I'm gonna tell your wife if you don't tell her. I'm gonna tell her. And she shows up dead. Like. And then he was, you know, he was a really bad cop. He was involved with a lot of bad cops that had sex in their cruisers. They were all cheating on their wives. They arrested him and like, suddenly the tapes disappeared and they gave him kid glove treatment and said nothing to see here. And he. The night of the murder, he had left a cop party for several hours and come back looking like a ghost. Like everything pointed to him killing that woman. And he was convicted and he exhausted all of his appeals and he was going to be in prison life, no parole. And Brian Enten, if you can believe this, a random carpenter walked into a police station off the sidewalk and said, I can't live with myself anymore. I'm the killer of that woman that you put that cop away. Oh my God. That was my epiphany in this business to say, don't for a minute think you got it figured out. Even when the evidence looks so overwhelming, there's always a chance. You know, it may. It may not look good. It may not look like a. It's too coinky coinky dinky. But there is that chance that everything looks bad, but it wasn't. Wasn't him.

[Brian Enten]

That's so crazy. Yeah, that's a good perspective. It's a good thing to remember.

[Ashlee Banfield]

It's the way we all really need to behave when we're covering these cases. Like there is always a chance until it's irrefutable and you saw it with your own lion eyes. You can't know everything. So it's just one of those things. Okay, last thing, because I know I've kept you really long. What are your thoughts now as we're in this final stretch? Like we are, we're getting there. We've waited so long. The families have waited so long. They are all very different. These victims, family members are all very different in how they approach this. But what are your thoughts as we get ready to really watch this play out in public?

[Brian Enten]

Gosh, that's a really good question. I can't believe it's finally here. I guess I think of the families a lot about what this is gonna be like for them. I don't think I've wrapped my mind around the three month thing. Like, I've never covered a trial for three months. I don't think I've wrapped my. That's a really long time. You know, like we just staying three months, so I think I'm still sort of processing that. But, yeah, I don't know. I mean, to me, it almost doesn't feel real yet that it's actually. We've just been covering it for so long.

[Ashlee Banfield]

I mean, I think three months is short because. Yeah, and I'll tell you why. Phil Spector was, I think, five, and O.J. was nine, and, yeah, I mean, Casey's was two. And I feel like there's four victims here. And there's so much digital evidence in this day and age. Just like we've heard terabytes of digital evidence that has to be sorted through and dealt with. I also think that each murder has to be dealt with as well. And all of the evidence that's extraneous in that house, it was a party house. There are thousands of people who walked in and out of that house over the years and left something behind, some trace hair or dandruff or something. And so just trying to get all that sorted through. That's not the same in your house. It's not the same in my house, but that house was different, unique and bizarre. So I just feel like. Yeah, three months. I feel like that's quick.

[Brian Enten]

Well, you'll think this is interesting. This came up in court today. They talked about it a lot. The prosecution has created an exact model of the house, like a replica that's already in the courthouse. They said it's already in the ADA county courthouse.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Like a miniature.

[Brian Enten]

Like. Like a miniature, but I think it's kind of big the way they described it, and it's. It's on a different floor, and we didn't see it. But the defense has already gone down and inspected it and has approved of it. And they called it the doll house a couple times in court. And then the prosecutor stood up and even the judge called it the Dollhouse, which I did think was kind of weird. And then the prosecutor was like, listen, I don't think we should call it the Dollhouse anymore. I think we should just call it the model based on what happened there. So I just. And then they're all agreed, like, yeah, we need to stop calling at the Dollhouse. But so that was just kind of interesting, like, so there's going to be, like, an exact model replica of the house. And then they even discussed that the defense didn't want it to stay in the courtroom at all times. So they agreed that they Would wheel it out and then wheel it in, like when they need it.

[Ashlee Banfield]

I don't know how the jury's gonna be able to see if it's the size of a dollhouse, you know, and you're halfway across the courtroom. I don't know how you're supposed to actually see the detail you need. I imagine that the way they were gonna depict this house was through a digital tour, because those are very good nowadays, and that would be very helpful. I'm still so upset that they took that house down. I think that this was the one case where, if there is there any case out there, this is the one where the jury should have gone on a go. See, they really should have. There's so much to Dylan's position when he's walking towards her and then he's taking a right, right past her door, and then another right outside the kitchen doors. That house took me through sleuthing online. Real estate listings and photographs and testimony and, you know, affidavits. It took me weeks to find. Figure it out.

[Brian Enten]

It's a weird house. Even you and me on the phone the other night trying to figure out the new surveillance video. That area is a strange, weird area packed in with college apartments and duplexes and triplexes and weird. It's weird because it's all little college kids living in all little alcoves.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Alcove at this house. As you. Everybody's seen the image with the parking lot out front faces Queen, not king. So Everybody thinks it's 1122 King Road, but it actually faces queen. And. And king is like on the side that. That Zanna's room was on. There's barely even a window that faces way out past other houses down to King Road. It's. It's very complicated. That's why I thought this was a visiting place.

[Brian Enten]

How we got up there, you know, it's. I agree with you. I think they would have. In any case, this. A jury visit would have really been impactful, I think.

[Ashlee Banfield]

I agree. Well, listen, there's nobody better than you at doing this kind of work for a number of reasons. And I'll just blow your horn for a minute here.

[Brian Enten]

A.

[Ashlee Banfield]

You have such incredible empathy. You tackle every story that you do, not just as a reporter, as Brian, and you tell every story that you tell as Brian. And it's. It's really helpful to people like me because you're like a translator of the complex. You take these complex things that you've collected all day and then you give us like a bedtime story, which really makes sense. Sense. And it's easily, it's easy to remember, it's easy to process and it's easy to, to understand. And so for that reason, I just think there's, there's just no one better in the business as a reporter. So I, for one, I'm glad to work with you. I'm also just thrilled that you're on this story because it is going to be, it's going to be a marathon. Thanks for doing this tonight.

[Brian Enten]

Thanks, Ash.

[Ashlee Banfield]

Love you.

[Brian Enten]

Love you too.

[Ashlee Banfield]

My great thanks to Brian Enten. I can't wait to see the coverage that he does on this case this summer. Meantime, like I said before, make sure you subscribe because I drop these bonus episodes and you will be notified. You will get them. You won't miss them. I also want to hear what you think. Drop a comment if you're listening on the podcast or if you're watching on YouTube. Give me the feedback. Good, bad, ugly, all of the above. And also suggestions. I like to hear what you want to hear and what you want to see. And remember, folks, the truth is not just serious, it's drop dead serious.