Karen Read Trial Day 2: Emotional Testimony and a Cross-Examination Bloodbath

Summary

Summary of "Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield"

Episode: Karen Read Trial Day 2: Emotional Testimony and a Cross-Examination Bloodbath
Release Date: April 24, 2025
Host: Ashleigh Banfield

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Ashleigh Banfield delves deep into the second day of the Karen Reed trial, highlighting the intense emotional testimonies and the rigorous cross-examinations that have made this day particularly pivotal. Drawing from her 36 years of true crime reporting experience, Ashleigh provides listeners with a comprehensive and engaging analysis of the courtroom dynamics, key witness statements, and strategic legal maneuvers that are shaping the trial's trajectory.

Overview of Day Two

Ashleigh begins by setting the stage for Day Two, emphasizing the prosecution's strong start and the defense's calculated responses:

Ashleigh Banfield [00:04]: "When they start out, it looks as though the defendant doesn't have a shot... the prosecution's case out of the gate... it's going to suck for the defendant."

She recounts the initial testimony of a firefighter who claimed to have heard Karen Reed repeatedly say, "I hit him." While this seemed damning, Ashleigh notes the defense attorney, Alan Jackson, adeptly began to sow seeds of reasonable doubt by challenging the witness's memory:

Arkelle Banfield [00:04]: "Her defense attorney, Alan Jackson... got him on cross and said, that's not what you said originally... What’s your memory really like?"

Carrie Roberts' Testimony: A Turning Point

The centerpiece of Day Two was Carrie Roberts' emotional testimony, which Ashleigh describes as a potential game-changer for the prosecution:

Ashleigh Banfield [03:15]: "Carrie Roberts testimony is bombshell. And that's why I felt the oxygen go out of the room yesterday."

Carrie detailed her close relationship with the victim, John O'Keefe, highlighting her role in co-parenting his nieces and nephews after the tragic deaths of John’s sister and her husband. Her testimony underscored the prosecution's narrative that Karen Reed had orchestrated a conspiracy to frame her:

Carrie Roberts [05:00]: "I got a phone call from Karen Reed and she's screaming at the top of her lungs... John's dead."

Ashleigh points out the suspicious timing and content of this call, given that John had not yet been found dead:

Ashleigh Banfield [05:00]: "Why suddenly is there a snowplow in this picture at 5am? John just missing."

Defense Cross-Examination: Undermining the Prosecution

Defense attorney Alan Jackson launched a meticulous cross-examination of Carrie Roberts, aiming to dismantle her credibility and the prosecution's case. Ashleigh highlights Jackson's strategic questioning that led Carrie to concede inconsistencies in her testimony:

Ashleigh Banfield [16:48]: "She perjured yourself. Right. And it got testy, and she showed another side of her."

Quotes from the cross-examination reveal the intense pressure placed on Carrie:

Alan Jackson [16:33]: "What you told the grand jurors was not true, you never heard Karen Reid ask anyone to Google anything, did she?"
Carrie Roberts [16:48]: "I did not."

This exchange cast significant doubt on the reliability of her statements, suggesting possible external influence or confusion during testimony.

Peggy O'Keefe's Emotional Testimony

John O'Keefe's mother, Peggy O'Keefe, took the stand, offering a deeply personal and heart-wrenching account of her loss. Ashleigh emphasizes the raw emotion Peggy exhibited, portraying her as a grieving mother seeking justice:

Ashleigh Banfield [24:58]: "You understand the importance of providing information to law enforcement... free of influence from other people."
Peggy O'Keefe [25:04]: "He was enthusiastic with sports. He was wonderful with the kids."

Peggy recounted the morning of John's death, detailing her interactions with Karen Reed at the hospital. Her testimony provided crucial context about the strained relationship between Karen and the O'Keefe family:

Peggy O'Keefe [30:32]: "She said John was found in a snowbank... she's coming to get you and Papa because I don't want you driving."
Peggy O'Keefe [33:48]: "I just asked the nurse, what is she doing here?"

Use of Video Clips: Strategic Implications

A significant moment from Day Two involved the introduction of video clips from Karen Reed's interviews, which the prosecution aims to use to portray her demeanor and possible guilt. Ashleigh discusses the contentious debate over these clips' admissibility:

Ashleigh Banfield [42:37]: "Prosecutors want to enter a clip of Karen Reed talking to the producer... making my client look very unsympathetic."
Alan Jackson [44:34]: "This clip is obviously... being used to vilify my client... it's irrelevant."

Jackson argues that the clips are being manipulated to unfairly characterize Karen, emphasizing that they constitute an improper attempt to impeach a witness without legitimate grounds.

Emotional and Strategic Dynamics in the Courtroom

Ashleigh underscores the emotional weight of the testimonies, particularly Peggy O'Keefe's heartfelt recounting of her family's tragedy. She also highlights the strategic maneuvers by both prosecution and defense, illustrating the complex interplay of emotion and legal strategy that defines the trial:

Ashleigh Banfield [39:54]: "Peggy on the stand. And it was hard. It's hard to watch a mom breaking down about the destruction that the death of a child has brought to her."
Ashleigh Banfield [46:20]: "Judge said she'll make a decision tomorrow... not good for Karen."

The introduction of personal testimonies alongside legal arguments creates a multifaceted narrative that keeps the jury and the audience deeply engaged.

Insights and Conclusions

Ashleigh concludes Day Two's summary by reflecting on the unpredictable nature of trials and the importance of patience in awaiting further developments:

Ashleigh Banfield [47:13]: "That's why trials are so dramatic. It's why true crime and trial coverage is so fascinating, because it is happening in real time."

She hints at upcoming days of the trial, suggesting that more revelations and twists are on the horizon, maintaining suspense and anticipation for listeners.

Final Thoughts

Throughout the episode, Ashleigh Banfield masterfully navigates the intricate details of the Karen Reed trial, providing listeners with a vivid and comprehensive understanding of the proceedings. Her ability to blend factual reportage with insightful analysis offers both seasoned true crime aficionados and casual listeners a captivating exploration of a high-stakes legal battle.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ashleigh Banfield [00:04]: "When they start out, it looks as though the defendant doesn't have a shot..."
• Carrie Roberts [05:00]: "I got a phone call from Karen Reed and she's screaming at the top of her lungs. John's dead."
• Alan Jackson [16:33]: "What you told the grand jurors was not true, you never heard Karen Reid ask anyone to Google anything, did she?"
• Peggy O'Keefe [25:04]: "He was enthusiastic with sports. He was wonderful with the kids."
• Ashleigh Banfield [39:54]: "Peggy on the stand. And it was hard. It's hard to watch a mom breaking down..."
• Ashleigh Banfield [46:20]: "Judge said she'll make a decision tomorrow... not good for Karen."

These quotes capture the emotional intensity and pivotal moments of Day Two, illustrating the high stakes and dramatic turns of the trial.

Transcript

[Unknown Speaker]

Foreign.

[Ashley Banfield]

Hey, everybody, it's Ashley Banfield. Welcome back to Drop Dead Serious. And I am on it, folks, I promised you daily recaps on Karen Reid, and we're on day two, and it's the humdinger. I say that because if you listened to my recap yesterday, day one, I gave you this principle that I have learned over years and years and years of covering trials. And that is when they start out, it looks as though the defendant doesn't have a shot, Right? It's supposed to because it's the prosecution's case out of the gate. And naturally, if the prosecution is laying out all the evidence against the defendant, it's going to suck for the defendant. So when I saw the first two witnesses yesterday, one was a first responder, a firefighter, I thought, oh, that doesn't look good. There's that firefighter saying, I heard Karen Reed plain as day saying, I hit him. I hit him. I hit him. It doesn't look good. Doesn't look good. But then her defense attorney, Alan Jackson, AKA Hotshot, AKA really good lawyer, maybe one of the best, got him on cross and said, that's not what you said originally. Originally, your testimony and your reporting was that she said it twice, but now you're suggesting she said it three times. So which is it, sir? What's your memory really like? Okay, so maybe it's not the greatest way to impugn somebody. The fact that she might have even said it once is not great. But he did get a little dig in there, right? Things that build towards reasonable doubt. There's just one little chip that Alan Jackson took. But today, today he took a full shovel to a witness, and it was Carrie Roberts. So Carrie was on the witness stand yesterday as the second witness. And when she testified, I felt the oxygen go out of the room for Karen Reed and her defense team. I. I felt like it's over. Sister, you're not going to get past this one. This is Everest. This witness is killing you. But again, the old principle, whenever the prosecution lays out its case, it sounds awful. And yesterday didn't disappoint. So basically, what Carrie Roberts brings to the table is that she and the victim in. In this case, John O'Keefe, were pretty close. Not always. There was a time they were just. You know, they went to school together. They knew a lot of the same friends, but they weren't pals. Until tragedy struck. John O'Keeffe's family, and he ended up with his sister's kids because his sister died and his sister's husband died and so these two kids were orphaned and so Uncle John, John O'Keefe took them in. So because he was a single dad, he'd never been a parent before. Carrie Roberts lived real close by and began to help him. She helped him with everything from like pickups and drop offs and sports and snack and, you know, all the things that parents deal with with little kids. And so she became pretty close to John O'Keeffe through this whole co parenting and helping in the parenting, you know, the neighbor down the street and I used to know you in school, so sure, I'll help out. What the prosecution was really good at laying out in day one was that you're not close to John O'Keefe because you're friends with all his cop friends, are you? And you know, Carrie Roberts said, no, I, I'm close to him because of this whole parenting thing. I don't really even know those people all that well. I, I mean, I know of them, but they're not my friends. Which is important because if you are Karen Reed trying to lay out that John O'Keefe was killed inside a house party where she dropped him off by a bunch of cops whom he may have had a beef with and then they'd covered their tracks by throwing him in the snow and framing Karen Reid. You gotta have a lot of people on board that conspiracy. And this lady, Carrie Roberts, why would she lie for all of you? She's on the stand saying she barely even knows you guys, right? So it was really important. Even more important, Carrie Roberts said something very, very damning about Karen Reid. She said that at 5:00 in the morning on the day that John died, I got a phone call from Karen Reed and she's screaming at the top of her lungs. And she only says one thing, one thing only, and she hangs up. And that thing was John's dead. That's really important because it's 5 o'clock in the morning, nobody has found John yet, alive or dead. So why is Karen Reid screaming into the phone at 5am and waking up Carrie Roberts and saying John's dead? It kind of precedes knowing that he's dead. Unless you already know he's dead. I mean, unless you may have killed him. And what may be even more damning is that right after that phone call that John's dead in the hang up, she's back on the phone with Karen Reed moments later, and Karen is saying something along the lines of I think he might have gotten hit by a Snowplow or something. That is massive. I mean, that's mic drop bombshell. You, you use the, you know, superlative you want, but that's big because why is anybody talking about a snowplow at 5 o'clock in the morning? Right now? He's just missing. He could be anywhere. Karen thought he might have been sleeping with some woman. She was so mad and her voicemails all night long. Why suddenly is there a snowplow in this picture at 5am Again, nobody found John till later. Nobody knew about him being out on that snowbank out in front of 34 Fairview till later. So Carrie Roberts testimony is bombshell. And that's why I felt the oxygen go out of the room yesterday. Like she's laid it out for the jury and they're probably thinking, oh, this case is easy. This thing's going to be over soon. You know, that lady right there at the defense table called this witness right there at 5 o'clock the morning and said, john's dead, must have got hit by a snowplow and John hasn't even been found yet. Case closed. Which is why, again, I always say, wait for it. Wait for it. Wait for the defense case. And if you can't wait and you're not patient, wait for the defense cross examination. Because, ladies and gentlemen of the podcast, may I say that Ellen Jackson nailed it. If I ever get, you know, in trouble with the law, God forbid, I'm calling Alan, because this guy really knows what he's doing. He came at Carrie Roberts today, and he didn't have to be mean and he didn't have to be a dick. He just came at her with her own words. And may I just say that one of the words he used to describe her words was perjury, which is never a good thing in a courtroom, which is never a good thing in a trial, which is never a good thing when you're on the stand. It's actually illegal. You can go to jail for perjury. But Alan Jackson came at Carrie Roberts and asked her about a conversation that she claims she overheard on the scene that morning. And let me just set the stage. After that 5am call, John's dead. I think he got hit by a snowblow. Carrie Roberts then gets together with Karen Reed and their other friend Jen McCabe, and they get in the car to come looking for John. And as they're driving up to 34 Fairview, the scene of the party from the night before, Karen jumps out of the car and says, there is. But the Other girls, they're like, there. Who is? What are you talking about? There's a blizzard and nobody can see anything. How on earth are you seeing anything, let alone jumping out of the car and running right to his body? So now Carrie Roberts testifies before the grand jury under oath. I heard Karen Ask Jen McCabe, our other pal, to Google hypothermia. That's what she said under oath. I heard Karen reed asking Jen McCabe to Google hypothermia. This matters, right, because Jen McCabe has a Google search that's basically how long to die in the cold. It's misspelled hoss H O S instead of H O W. But how long to die in the cold from 2:27am Right. That. That's way back when, you know, right around when John was live. Like, that's. That's a long time before he's found dead right in the snow. Presumably it is after Karen Reed has dropped him off, but it is before anybody finds him dead. So if Jen McCabe has a Google search at 2:27am saying how long to die in the cold, that is bad. The experts, some of them, not all of them, say, well, that may be when she opened a window, a browser, to look for something else and then went to bed and woke back up in the morning and went into that same browser and typed that out. And that will make the search look as though it is the same time as when the browser was opened the night before. That's what the prosecutors say. But it's really important to hear this conversation because Carrie Roberts says, I heard Karen reed asking Jen McCabe at this time. Right. 5:00am, 6:00am whatever. It's like it's after 5:00am Google hypothermia. Now, that would. That would basically say that the prosecutors are right. Their experts are right. That search for how to die in the cold did not happen at night. It happened right then at the behest of Karen Reed. Okay. So Alan Jackson gets up and he's all up in Karen's grill or in Carrie Robert's grill. And he says, did you really hear Karen Reed say that? And ultimately Carrie Reid has to admit, no, she did not. She did not hear Karen Reed saying anything like that to Jen McCabe. She has to admit somebody just told her that that had happened. Oh, dang. That's a problem. Here's how it played out in court.

[Unknown Speaker]

You understand the importance of providing information to law enforcement as a witness to law enforcement, free of influence from other people.

[Carrie Roberts]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

In other words, you want to be as accurate and as independent as possible.

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

I want to talk about the statements in the prior testimony that you have provided in this case, Ms. Roberts. There's been several of them. The first time you told your story, law enforcement was on January 29th. We've already established that. Correct.

[Carrie Roberts]

Say that again.

[Unknown Speaker]

It was on January 29, the first time you. You relayed your story to law enforcement.

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

So the second time you told your memory, your story to law enforcement, you were literally sitting in Jennifer McCabe's house.

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

And you had met with Jennifer McCabe before your interview, correct?

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes, we were putting a timeline together.

[Unknown Speaker]

So you two were actually prepping. That's a valid term, prepping for your interview, putting a timeline together, Correct.

[Carrie Roberts]

We were putting a timeline together at the request of Mrs. O'Keefe.

[Unknown Speaker]

And she was. She. Jennifer McCabe was helping you with the timeline, and you were helping her with the timeline?

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes, we were putting together the events of what had happened.

[Unknown Speaker]

So she was helping you and you were helping her. Yes or no?

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay. Is it your testimony that you have never said that Karen told Jen to Google hypothermia or that you don't recall saying that?

[Carrie Roberts]

I don't recall saying that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Would it refresh your recollection to look at portion of your grand jury testimony from that day?

[Carrie Roberts]

It might. Yep. I testified. I didn't hear it, but I was told that she was asked to Google it.

[Unknown Speaker]

You testified under oath at the grand jury that at some point Karen was in back of the police cruiser, correct?

[Carrie Roberts]

Yep.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Objection.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, I'll allow that question.

Does that refresh your recollection as to what you told the grand jury?

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

And isn't it true that at some point during the course of your testimony under oath, you said that Karen was in the back of the police cruiser?

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

And then you went on to describe that Karen and Jen and I were standing outside and she made us all start holding hands and starting to pray. Yes. The she being Karen Reed, correct?

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

And at this point, they had lifted John up and taken him onto the gurney, Correct. That's what you described?

[Carrie Roberts]

I don't recall.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm gonna do this again just so we're clear.

[Carrie Roberts]

Yep. I say I think so. I'm not positive. Okay. Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay. And you testified basically that you think, at least that's what you were telling the grand jurors, think that was the point at which they lifted John up.

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

And moved him into the ambulance. Correct. Is that right?

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

Then you were asked a question. What, if anything, did she miss Reed, ask Ms. McCabe, while they were sitting in the back of the cruiser that you heard, correct? Objection.

Do you recall that?

[Carrie Roberts]

I did not hear the question about Google being asked.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's not my question. May I ask, may I inquire.

Just repeat that question.

Sure. Isn't it true that you were next asked by Mr. Lally in front of the grand jury, quote, what, if anything, did she. Ms. Reed, ask Ms. McCabe, while they were sitting in the back of the cruiser that you heard, end quote, do you remember being asked that question?

[Carrie Roberts]

No.

[Unknown Speaker]

And in response to that question, you stated, quote, at one point, she asked her to Google hypothermia and how long. Google hypothermia, correct?

[Carrie Roberts]

Mm.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm sorry.

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

That was very detailed. You'll agree that that's a very detailed and specific recount of an event you recounted, where you were back of a cruiser or they were in the back of a cruiser, correct?

[Carrie Roberts]

Yep.

[Unknown Speaker]

You recorded or reported the time right around the time that you thought they were lifting John up and scooped him up onto the gurney, correct?

[Carrie Roberts]

Yeah, I thought it was about that time. I wasn't sure.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm sorry, I didn't get that answer. You were talking over each other.

That's my mistake.

What was your answer, Ms. Rob?

[Carrie Roberts]

I thought it was about the time they lifted him up, but I wasn't sure.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Okay.

[Unknown Speaker]

You were very detailed about who was there. It was you, it was Jen. It was my client, Karen Reed, correct? Is that right?

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

You're so detailed that you talked about where you were standing next to the cruiser, open door, correct?

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

What the others were doing, holding hands and praying, is that right?

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

And the actual words used, yours detailed about all of that as the actual words used, she asked her to Google hypothermia and how long, then you stopped Google hypothermia, end quote. Correct?

[Carrie Roberts]

Correct.

[Unknown Speaker]

You will agree, at least for that purpose, you painted a very, very detailed picture in front of the grand jury, didn't you?

[Carrie Roberts]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Except it's not true, is it?

[Carrie Roberts]

I did not hear her ask that. I was told she was asked that in the.

[Unknown Speaker]

The answer to my question, Ms. Roberts, and I'm not a trick question. What you told the grand jurors was not true, you never heard her, my client, ask anyone to Google anything, did she?

[Carrie Roberts]

I did not.

[Unknown Speaker]

And yet that's what you testified to under oath, under penalty of perjury, in front of the grand jury.

[Carrie Roberts]

I did.

[Unknown Speaker]

And the reason you did that, the reason that you said that false statement, was because someone told you to say it.

Correct. Object is that I'm gonna let her answer.

[Carrie Roberts]

Nobody told me to say it. I knew it happened at that time.

[Unknown Speaker]

How did you know?

[Carrie Roberts]

Which is why I said it.

[Unknown Speaker]

How did you know it happened, Ms. Roberts, if no one told you it happened?

[Carrie Roberts]

Because we wrote a timeline. We already spoke about that.

[Unknown Speaker]

The timeline that Jennifer McCabe helped you with, that influenced your testimony in front of the grand jury, Correct.

[Carrie Roberts]

Obviously, I was telling what happened in the back of the cruiser.

[Unknown Speaker]

So when you ask a question, let her answer. Okay. And one you wrote.

Jennifer McCabe's help influenced your testimony to testify in front of the grand jurors to a statement that you never heard. Correct?

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

You were later asked about that statement in another investigation.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

I'm sorry.

[Unknown Speaker]

By another investigator or set of investigators? Correct.

[Carrie Roberts]

I don't know.

[Unknown Speaker]

Were you interviewed by. By a different law enforcement agency, a separate law enforcement agency from the Massachusetts State Police, at any time?

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

And you were told that to lie to those agents would be a crime? Correct?

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

Punishable by prison? Correct.

[Carrie Roberts]

I was not told that.

[Unknown Speaker]

They asked you whether or not you heard Karen Reed ever say anything to Jennifer McCabe about googling anything. Correct.

[Carrie Roberts]

I don't know.

[Unknown Speaker]

Isn't it true that you told them what you've just now told us, which is, I did not hear Karen Reid Ask Jennifer McCabe to conduct any Google searches.

[Carrie Roberts]

I don't recall.

[Ashley Banfield]

So that's uncomfortable, Right. That's the kind of thing that's awkward. And it also brings out another element of a witness, because when a witness is on the stand and they're undergoing friendly questioning from the guy that brought them to the dance, Right. The prosecutors brought Kerry Roberts to the dance, and they get to ask all the friendly questions first. And then comes the painful stuff, the cross examination. It's under cross. Where you start to see a different personality and where the jurors start to think, oh, maybe I don't like this person as much as I thought I did, or, oh, maybe this person isn't as agreeable or kind or forgiving or generous as I once thought she was. Because yesterday she seemed like the nicest lady in the, you know, in the room. And sure enough, what happened with Alan Jackson, again, masterful. He got under her skin. He certainly got under her skin with that back and forth. Right. So basically you perjured yourself. Right. And it got testy, and she showed another side of her, and that's important. So the jurors are now left with that side of Carrie Roberts. Not the loving, friendly, you know, mom, who helps out the poor John O'Keefe, who's just been, you know, given the task of looking after his, you know, his niece and nephew. So very, very important strategy, when you look at how the jurors are going to take this person overall, how they're going to assess this witness overall. Okay? So another witness today I did not expect because she did not testify in the first trial, and that's John O'Keefe's mom. John O'Keefe, the witness dead in the snow. This whole trial is about him, right? Who killed John O'Keeffe and how. And there's the mom. Peggy O'Keefe was not there. Let me be really clear. She didn't witness any of the business out on the lawn. She wasn't at the party the night before. She wasn't drinking with anybody at the bars before the party. She wasn't there to find him in the snow. She wasn't there with the ambulances and the first responders. That. That was not what Peggy could bring to this case. She was at the hospital. She did see Karen Reed at the hospital, and the acrimony between them was already kind of palpable. The way Peggy described like, what the hell is Karen doing here? You know, that's kind of what she felt like, what's she doing here? You know, don't forget, Karen Reed is just dating John O'Keefe. They're not married. They haven't been together years and years. They're just dating, as Karen clearly puts it in her documentary. It was just. I was just dating the guy for a couple months. I mean, it wasn't that serious. But what Peggy brought to the table, maybe more than anything. And again, this is, in my humble opinion, was the humanity of all of this. Right? It's not just a court case. It's not just forensics. It's not just testimony. It's not just swearing in. It's not just lawyers and judges and jurors. It's a guy. It's a man. A guy who had family, right? This is his mom. They're all devastated by this. There is a colossal hole in the world. If you look at this mom and if you look at John O'Keeffe's family, the reason we are here delivering justice is because of Mrs. O'Keefe. She lost her kid, right? That's what. That's what Peggy O'Keefe brings to the table. And when she got on the stand, she was exactly what you would think of. She was devastated. She needed to Break. And the judge was so sweet by saying, do you need a moment? You know, do you need to take a break? And the Kleenexes are handed. And I see this all the time. And it's the most difficult time of a trial because it's the real pain that is inflicted. The people for whom we deliver justice. And there was Peggy on the stand crying about, you know, having to tell these kids that parent number three is now dead. First, you know, mom and dad and now Uncle. They're only caregivers. So she was pretty devastated when she was referring to that. And Peggy O'Keefe is a key witness as well. Because when Karen Reed came over to the O'Keefe household the morning of John's death, it was tense. The way. The way Karen describes it, it was awful. Like she said, I could feel that I wasn't wanted there. I'm going to get to that in a moment because they actually want to put a clip in the trial. And they were talking about it today, a couple of clips. One they're not fighting over, one they are fighting over. But the way Peggy describes that moment when Karen came over, it was no big deal. She did say that Karen didn't offer any condolences or hug her or anything like that, but Peggy didn't describe this as, I didn't want her the hell in this house. I wanted her gone. That's not what Peggy said at all from Peggy's perspective on the stand. It was just, you know, Karen came over and, you know, she wanted to get some things out of John's room, and. And it wasn't acrimonious, but the prosecution is billing this as strategic. Karen only came over to get her car. She wanted her car the hell out of that driveway because the prosecution says that car's a murder weapon, and Karen knew it. Broken tail light, the whole nine yards. Gotta get it out of here.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Good afternoon, Mrs. O'Kee.

[Unknown Speaker]

Good afternoon, Mr. Brennan.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Could you kindly introduce yourself to the jury?

[Unknown Speaker]

My name is Margaret O'Keeffe. I am John O'Keefe's mother.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Are you married?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Who are you married to? John O'Keefe Jr. How long have you been married?

[Unknown Speaker]

For too long. 53 days.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

I'm sorry, ma'am, I didn't hear you.

[Unknown Speaker]

53 long enough.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

Son of.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Tell me a little bit about your immediate family.

[Unknown Speaker]

My daughter. My daughter Kristen had a. A tumor, A cancerous tumor that she had for five months. She died in November of 13. She had two children. And then two months after she passed. Her husband passed from a heart attack. And then you all know about John, and then my son Paul is over there.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

That was 2013. Ma'am, could I ask you about her children?

[Unknown Speaker]

She had two children, Kaylee, who's now 17, and Patrick is 14. She needs a runt for my money.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Do you remember how old the children were when your daughter passed?

[Unknown Speaker]

3 and 6.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

When that happened, was there any plan.

[Unknown Speaker]

For the children as far as what was going to happen with the children when she passed?

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Yes, ma'am.

[Unknown Speaker]

And when he passed?

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Yes, ma'am.

[Unknown Speaker]

We decided. My son decided to be the head guardian. And then we had. I was the other guardian and there was Steve's brother and sister and sister were the other two guardians. There's four of us.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Did I understand that there was a decision that John would be the primary guardian?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Can you share with us how that decision came about?

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, he was single. The other two guardians were married. They didn't have children, but he decided to do it himself. And then I was the second one in case he needed me. So I was over there most of the time when the kids get home from school or, you know, take them places and then have them on weekends so he could have a break. So that's what I did.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Did other people help out in addition to you and John?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes. My husband was there and Paul and Erin were there and the other members of Steve's family.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

I understand at some point John worked in law enforcement.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Besides that, could you just share just a little bit about him with us?

[Unknown Speaker]

He was a police officer at headquarters before. When he first started, he was in Hyde park, and then he moved to Dorchester and then into Boston itself, and that's what he did.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

I was hoping if you could tell us a little bit about John, besides his work.

[Unknown Speaker]

He was enthusiastic with sports. He was wonderful with the kids. He took care of them and did everything for them, take them places on vacations and everything. He was their number one and they called him jj.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

So, Keith, do you know when this picture was taken?

[Unknown Speaker]

I really don't know. In the summer of. I don't know what year. I really don't know the year, but is that one. He probably took him to a fair or an amusement park and he had his picture taken there with. And then the kids were with him, too.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

So do you know how old he was in that picture?

[Unknown Speaker]

43 maybe.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

What year was John born?

[Unknown Speaker]

75.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Ms. Gilman, could you take the photo down, please? How old was John when he passed?

[Unknown Speaker]

45. My mind's not working right now.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

I understand. It's okay. Can I ask you a few more questions? Okay. You let me know. I want to go back to the morning of January 29, 2022. Is that okay?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Were you home?

[Unknown Speaker]

I was home in Braintree.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

In Braintree. Who were you with?

[Unknown Speaker]

My husband.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Did you receive a phone call?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes, from Carrie Roberts. It was about 6:15. Between 6:15 and 6:30 in the morning.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Did you know Carrie Roberts?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

How did you know her?

[Unknown Speaker]

She lived in Branchy for a while. John and her were friends. They went to the junior prom together. And then we found out that she moved. She lived in Canton and she was around the corner from us and she helped us out, the kids.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

And when you were helping take care of the kids, would you often see Ms. Roberts?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Because she'd take Patrick and her son Ryan places and. Yeah, so I saw her all the time.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Often.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

When she called you that morning, do you remember the conversation?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. She said John was found in a snowbank. And I. I didn't understand, which I said, what do you mean found in a snowbank? She said, they found him in the snow. They don't know what happened. She says he's brought up to the Good Samaritan Hospital. So she says, I'm gonna come get you and Papa because I don't want you driving. I says, we can drive there. We both have four wheel drive. So she said, no, I'm coming. So she came to get us. And it took a while to get there because the snow was bad. And in the meantime, I had called one of my nieces to find out because one of my other niece worked at Good Samaritan. I just wanted to know if she could find out anything about it. I just couldn't get a hold of her. So when we get up there, they told us to sit in this room and they would bring us down shortly. So finally they said, okay, you can go down. So we started walking down the corridor. And as I'm walking down, I hear Karen Reed yell, peg, is he dead? Is he dead? Peg? Peg, is he dead? And I just kept walking. And then I asked, I don't know who it was, a nurse or a worker at the hospital. And I said, what is she doing here? And she said, oh, she's being psych evaluated. So then they brought us down to the room where my son was. He's bruised up, his eyes were closed. Just not a good scene.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Okay. I'd like to go back if I may.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

May I?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

During the drive to Good Samaritan Hospital that morning?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Did you ever have a chance while you were in the car to speak to the defendant?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Please tell the jury about that conversation.

[Unknown Speaker]

I, I, I asked her what happened, and she said, I, we went to a party. I left him there. I said, you just left him there? She said, yes, I just left him there.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Did she say whether she left him inside or outside?

[Unknown Speaker]

No, she just said, I left him there.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Did she tell you whether or not she left him in the driveway or the street?

[Unknown Speaker]

She just said, no, I just. I just left him there.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

You told us that when you got into Good Samaritan Hospital, you were walking down the hallway and you had another interaction with the defendant.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

And you told us that she was asking if he was dead.

[Unknown Speaker]

Mm.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Can you describe a little bit where in the hospital you had this interaction with her?

[Unknown Speaker]

When they took us down to the emergency room, the doors open and there was a car to go down to the other rooms, and she was on the left hand side, and that's when she saw me come in. And that's when she started yelling, is he dead, Peg? Is he Did So when she was.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Yelling, could you describe her mood or demeanor? Was she animated?

[Unknown Speaker]

Just loud and I don't know. She was just loud and as she was saying it, and when she was.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Asking you, is he dead? Is he dead? Did you again ask her a question?

[Unknown Speaker]

I just asked the nurse, what is she doing here?

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Okay. And did you speak to. To mislead herself?

[Unknown Speaker]

No. No.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Do you remember getting home that day?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yep. It was snowy, icy.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Was anybody home when you got back?

[Unknown Speaker]

No, it was just us. And then the kids started coming home, and that's when I was trying to, you know, take care of them. And then there was a knock at the door, and it was Karen. Her father and her brother asked if they could come in. And I was just trying to calm the kids because Patrick was just out of control, yelling. And then they came in, and then he said, do you mind if we go upstairs and get a couple of her things? Which I never should have let them go up there, but at the time it was. I just couldn't think straight. And I really didn't have anybody else to help me keep them down in the kitchen. So I don't know what they got up there, what they did up there.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

How long were they. When you say upstairs, do you know what room they went to?

[Unknown Speaker]

I assumed the bedroom.

[Carrie Roberts]

So I'm going to strike that, Mrs. O'Kee, if you could just what you.

[Unknown Speaker]

Actually know Mr. Brennan can ask a better question.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Thank you. Could I lead a bit? Yes, ma'am. How many rooms are upstairs in John's home?

[Unknown Speaker]

One, two, three, four bedrooms and an office. And off the master bedroom, there's a bathroom and then there's a closet. It's a big house.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Did you see the defendant and her father go upstairs?

[Unknown Speaker]

I didn't really see them go up, but I knew they were up there because I could hear them.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

You didn't follow them up or go to look?

[Unknown Speaker]

No.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

You didn't know which room or rooms they were in?

[Unknown Speaker]

No. I'm assuming the bathroom and the master bedroom.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

My question was poor. You didn't see which rooms they actually went in?

[Unknown Speaker]

No.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

How long was the defendant upstairs in John's home with her father?

[Unknown Speaker]

I don't know, maybe 10, 15 minutes.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Did you see them come back down?

[Unknown Speaker]

No, I did not.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

When they were upstairs, what were you doing?

[Unknown Speaker]

I was trying to calm the kids.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Both of them?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Well, mainly Patrick.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

How was Patrick reacting?

[Unknown Speaker]

He was very upset once we told him because he slept over a friend's house the night before, and he just said, I'll never see him again. Absolutely.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Would you like a moment.

[Unknown Speaker]

Mrs. O'Keefe? Would you like to take a short break? No, that's fine. Thank you.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

You can just let me know when you're ready. Take your time.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay, go ahead.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

You ready?

[Unknown Speaker]

Go ahead.

Okay.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

That morning, did you. When the defendant and her father came into your home, did you personally interact with the defendant?

[Unknown Speaker]

No.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Was there any hugs, condolences?

[Unknown Speaker]

Nope.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Did you ever confront the defendant with any accusations when she was in your home that morning?

[Unknown Speaker]

I don't even remember her being in the house. When she went upstairs, that's the last I saw of her.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Did you ever lean over a kitchen island? Do you have a kitchen island in your house?

[Unknown Speaker]

No.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Did you ever lean over the kitchen island and say, I think he looks like he got hit by a car?

[Unknown Speaker]

No. I don't remember talking to her that morning.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Did you see when she left?

[Unknown Speaker]

Nope.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Did you ever see her Lexus in the driveway?

[Unknown Speaker]

No.

[Ashley Banfield]

So that's Peggy on the stand. And it was hard. It's hard to watch that. It's hard to watch a mom breaking down about the destruction that the death of a child has brought to her. Now, the clips, the battle over the clips. Now, this is where I have been saying ever since we heard there was a Hulu documentary. Ever since we heard there's a 2020. Ever since we heard Karen Reed is sitting down for interviews or Maybe not. And I say that I waffle because Alan Jackson knows what he's doing. And if he okayed the Karen Reed interviews, which we know he did, Karen Reed would not do a damn thing without his imprimeter. I think the upside of Karen interviewing is to get her story out to the jury pool, right? Get her story out far and wide to anybody who's going to be picked for a jury in the second round in the retrial. Get her story out because we don't want to put her on the stand. We do not want her undergoing cross examination by the prosecutor. And we want to make her look sympathetic, right? That's what Alan Jackson would want in allowing Karen to do these interviews. And when I say allowing, she's a grown up. She can do them if she wants. But she's no dummy either. She's not going to do it if Alan Jackson says she shouldn't. But she did. She did these interviews and show enough. The clips are coming back maybe to haunt her. Maybe. Prosecution laid out 44 clips to the judge that they want to use in this case. They didn't tell us which ones, but I damn well knew at least one. And that was the one where she's like, I don't know. I was really drunk. I don't know. At first I thought maybe I did it. Did I? I don't know. Did I do it? Did I hit him? I hit him? I don't know. I knew that clip was going to come back. And it is. There was another clip I saw in the Hulu documentary that I thought, oh, that one's going to come back to haunt her. And sure enough, it came back today. So the prosecution wants to enter a clip of Karen Reed talking to the producer head on, full, on camera. And she's describing that moment when she came Back to the O'Keeffe household. And Peggy O'Keefe is there leaning over the island of the kitchen. Peggy said it was no big deal, nothing really happened. Karen, on the other hand, described it very differently. She said she was very uncomfortable. It was tense, it was awkward. She could tell she was not wanted there. And then she imitated Peggy. And his mother leans over the kitchen island and says to me, I think.

[Unknown Speaker]

He looks like you got hit by a car.

He looks like he got hit by a car.

[Ashley Banfield]

And the way she imitated Peggy is not kind to Peggy, very unsympathetic to a grieving mother. Now, granted, years have passed. However, in the interview, Karen basically says, Peggy looked at me. And in Karen's Boston accent says, I guess what Falls river accent. Peggy looked at me and said, I saw the body, and it looked like he'd been hit by a car. And she's squinting and grimacing Karen when she's imitating Peggy. And it just is not kind. That is something the prosecutors want introduced into this trial because it makes Karen look very unsympathetic and not very nice. And Alan Jackson doesn't want that introduced and is fighting it.

[Unknown Speaker]

So tell me how this comes in.

[John O'Keefe's Mother]

Similarly conscious of guilt evidence, the defendant making what we allege is a false statement to try to excuse her conduct of removing evidence of a crime from the scene. This has additional import. It has two facets to it. One, equally as important for conscience of guilt in the first part, as I supported for clip number four or five. Secondly, it is important because we've heard testimony from Peggy O'Keefe that this claim never happened. So we now have direct testimony that she did not have a conversation with the defendant, did not make these claims to the defendant. And so while also conscious of guilt evidence, it has additional support from the previous clip.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right. Mr. Jackson, thank you.

With this video clip, Your Honor, it's very different. It has absolutely nothing to do with consciousness of guilt. The argument is baffling. How could that possibly be consciousness of guilt if my client is simply reiterating something that she believes somebody else said? This clip is obviously, very obviously and strategically being used to try to vilify my client with something that's completely irrelevant. In Massachusetts, you can't call a witness just for the purposes of impeaching them. What this clip would be doing is purporting to impeach Mrs. O'Keefe, who just testified. I never said that. I never said it. I never leaned over the. The island counter. Never happened. So bringing this in would be used to impeach their own witness. And that's what can't be done in Massachusetts. With regard to consciousness of guilt, how does that. How does my client reiterating or stating that something that the victim's mother may or may not have said, how does that relate to consciousness of guilt? It doesn't. This is simply a wolf in sheep's clothing. They're trying to get it in because it makes my client look bad. They just put on a very, very sympathetic and empathetic witness, John O'Keeffe's mother, and they're trying to make my client, Ms. Reed, look bad by saying something what they perceive to be pejorative in a tone that's pejorative. About that very same witness.

[Ashley Banfield]

Judge said she'll make a decision tomorrow, but if it gets in, not good for Karen, not great. There was another clip. It was an interview with Matt Gutman on 2020 ABC. And neither one seemed to contest it. You know, the prosecutors wanted in. Alan Jackson said, fine, I don't care. That's fine. It was a clip of Karen talking about coming over that morning and really wanting to, like, squeeze John's nephew. The kids, you know, wanting to see them. They had pulled into the driveway before me. So I presume that she saw my and was thinking, did you hit my son? I would sense from her that she.

[Unknown Speaker]

Was looking at me very warily.

[Ashley Banfield]

And then when John's nephew came home, I just wanted to see him and squeeze up.

[Unknown Speaker]

It was quite uncomfortable.

[Ashley Banfield]

I said, dad, come upstairs to the master bedroom. I said, I think I need to leave because I think John's mother did something to John. So those are kind of the big highlights from day two. And as for day three, four, five, six, they are keeping things close to their vest, folks. They're not telling us the strategy. We did not expect John O Keef's mom to testify. She didn't testify in the first trial, so this was a surprise. But each little surprise, if you feel all of a sudden the case is going one way. Patience, my friends. Be patient. Because what happens next usually trashes everything you're feeling, which is why trials are so dramatic. It's why true crime and trial coverage is so fascinating, because it is happening in real time. You do not know what's coming and sure enough, your emotions are yanked from under you. I'm loving the fact that you are watching me and you are checking out my podcast and you're into these trial recaps. I'm going to continue to do them. Thank you for watching. Always leave me a comment if it's on YouTube, comment section if it's in the podcast. I always want to hear what you have to say. If you like it, if you don't like it, and if you want me to cover something else. I always like your suggestions and I always wrap by saying what I find very important. The truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.