Karen Read Trial Day 6: Star Witness Unleashed as Judge DROPS THE HAMMER

Summary

Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
Episode: Karen Read Trial Day 6: Star Witness Unleashed as Judge DROPS THE HAMMER
Release Date: April 30, 2025

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Overview

In Day Six of the Karen Read retrial, host Ashleigh Banfield delves deep into the courtroom drama surrounding the case against Karen Read. The day was marked by intense cross-examinations, emotional witness testimonies, and a pivotal ruling by Judge Kanoni that could significantly influence the trial's outcome. This summary captures the key events, discussions, and insights from the episode, providing a comprehensive understanding for those who haven't listened.

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Morning Proceedings: Cross-Examination of Cellphone Expert

The day commenced with a rigorous cross-examination of Ian Whiffin, a cellphone expert from Cellbrite, who testified on behalf of the prosecution. Karen Read's defense attorney, Robert Alessi, methodically dismantled the credibility of Whiffin's report.

• Location Tracking Discrepancies:
  Alessi highlighted inconsistencies in Whiffin's data regarding John O'Keefe's phone location. Specifically, a screenshot suggested the phone could have been inside the residence at 34 Fairview Road. However, Whiffin's report indicated the phone's location within a vast area of the house, not limited to the lawn or driveway.

  Alessi (00:XX): "The report actually showed that O'Keefe's phone could have been anywhere within a huge area of the house..."

• Activity Logs and Human Interaction:
  Whiffin testified that at 12:36 AM, the phone's Face ID was activated and subsequently locked manually, implying human interaction. Alessi countered by questioning the proximity of these events to the flagpole's distance.

  Alessi (00:XX): "Did Trooper Guarino tell you the distance from the flagpole to the front door was 72ft?"
  Whiffin: "Maybe Karen's Lawyer, well, 84ft is more than 72ft, right?"

  This line of questioning led Whiffin to concede that the phone could indeed have entered the house that night, undermining the prosecution's stance.

• Battery Temperature Analysis:
  The expert's cold weather tests revealed that the battery temperature drop in O'Keefe's phone did not align with prolonged exposure to freezing conditions.

  Alessi (00:XX): "That is not what you'd expect if the phone had been lying in the freezing snow the whole time."

Despite the technical depth, Banfield noted that the logical and efficient cross-examination could sway the jury's perception against the prosecution's case.

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Afternoon Testimony: Star Witness Jen McCabe

The afternoon took an emotional turn with the testimony of Jennifer McCabe, a key witness and sister to Nicole Albert, the homeowner of the residence in question. Jen's recounting of the events leading up to John O'Keefe's tragic death provided crucial insights.

• Personal Connections and Background:
  Jen detailed her relationship with O'Keefe and her connection to Karen Reed, painting a picture of familiarity and trust within the household.

  Jen McCabe (08:09): "At 4:53 my phone rings... I look at the phone and it's Kaylee, John's niece... a lot of screaming."

• Events Leading to the Discovery of John O'Keefe:
  Jen described receiving a frantic call from Karen Reed at 4:53 AM, reporting that John hadn't returned home. Accompanied by Carrie Roberts, Jen went in search of him, culminating in the heartbreaking discovery of O'Keefe frozen in the snow.

  During her testimony, Jen recounted the tense moments in the car as they approached the scene:

  Jen McCabe (17:16): "She was just screaming, yelling things. It was almost like everything she said, she said three times."

  The emotional weight of her discovery left her in a state of shock, reinforcing the severity of the situation:

  Jen McCabe (19:17): "I was frozen. I was shocked. I couldn't believe that was him just lying there."

Jen's testimony not only humanizes the victim but also casts doubt on Karen Reed's account of the events, potentially swaying the jury's perception.

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Judicial Ruling: Allowing Defense Crash Reconstruction Experts

As the day progressed, a significant legal battle ensued over the admissibility of defense crash reconstruction experts from ARCA. These experts contend that John O'Keefe's injuries were inconsistent with a pedestrian being struck by a vehicle, suggesting alternative scenarios.

• Prosecution's Stance:
  The prosecution vehemently opposed the inclusion of ARCA's experts, arguing that their testimony could severely undermine the prosecution's case. Allegations were made against the defense for missing court deadlines and failing to disclose crucial communications.

• Judge Kanoni's Intervention:
  Addressing defense attorney Alan Jackson, Judge Kanoni expressed grave concerns over the defense's handling of discovery, particularly the deletion of text messages via the encrypted messaging platform, Signal. She rebuked the defense for "repeated violations of the reciprocal discovery orders."

  Judge Kanoni (23:03): "How do I reconcile the fact that 100 text messages were deleted by counsel... where all correspondence related to the matter must be saved for 10 years minimum."

  Despite the defense's arguments that the rules cited pertain to attorney-client communications and not to their interactions, Judge Kanoni ruled in favor of allowing ARCA's experts to testify.

  Judge Kanoni (25:55): "I am going to allow the OCCA witnesses to testify. I expect a very robust cross-examination... let's just try this case."

This ruling permits the defense to introduce critical evidence that could potentially exonerate Karen Read, intensifying the prosecution's challenges.

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Implications and Future Outlook

By the end of Day Six, several pivotal developments emerged:

1. Weakening Prosecution's Case:
   The successful cross-examination of the cellphone expert introduced reasonable doubt regarding John O'Keefe's movements and Karen Read's involvement.

2. Jen McCabe's Impactful Testimony:
   As a star witness, Jen's emotional and detailed recounting of the events casts further doubt on the prosecution's narrative, especially concerning Karen Reed's actions and account.

3. Judge's Crucial Ruling:
   Allowing ARCA's crash reconstruction experts is a significant win for the defense. Their testimony could provide a compelling alternative explanation for O'Keefe's injuries, potentially shifting the trial's trajectory.

Looking ahead, the trial remains at a critical juncture. With Jen McCabe set to return for further testimony and the defense poised to present ARCA's experts, the ensuing days promise heightened courtroom drama and substantial developments.

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Conclusion

Day Six of the Karen Read trial underscored the complexities and high stakes involved. From undermining prosecution evidence to introducing potentially exculpatory expert testimony, the day's events have significantly influenced the case's direction. Ashleigh Banfield's detailed coverage ensures that listeners are well-informed of the unfolding legal battles, maintaining her commitment to unraveling mysteries and seeking justice.

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Note: For a more in-depth analysis and updates on the trial, subscribe to "Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield" and stay tuned for future episodes.

Transcript

[Jen McCabe]

Foreign.

[Ashley Banfield]

Hi, everyone, I'm Ashley Banfield and welcome back to another episode of Drop Dead Serious. Today was day six of the Karen Reed retrial and we covered a lot of ground. The morning was long and it was tense with a cell phone expert from Cell Bright back on the stand, Ian Whiffin. He had to brace himself for Karen's lawyers and their cross examination. And then in the afternoon, a total emotional pivot when a star witness, Jen McCabe. Jennifer McCabe finally took the stand and described the moment that she saw her Dear friend John O'Keefe lying in the snow. The afternoon ended abruptly, but not before the judge had some harsh words and made a very important ruling. Like you might say, the most important ruling of the case. So let's start with the morning. Right out of the gate, Karen Reed's defense attorney was ready for battle. And a cross examination of the prosecutor's cell phone expert, Ian Wiffen from Cellbrite, Robert Alessi grilled that expert on something buried in his own report. A screenshot showing that John O'Keefe's phone could have been inside the house at 34 Fairview Road. The report actually showed that Okeefes phone could have been anywhere within a huge area of the house, not just out on the lawn and not just out on the driveway inside the actual house where that party was going on that snowy night. And then came the activity logs and a key moment that happened at 12:36am the prosecutor's cell phone expert testified two very specific things happened with John's phone. First, face ID was activated and then the phone was locked manually using the lock button. And both of these events would have required some kind of human interaction. Karen's lawyer hammered home the point that someone had to be handling that phone in order for that to happen. And then he moved on to the health data on John O'Keefe's phone. The last movement recorded on the phone was 36 steps. John's phone traveled 36 steps, which if you convert it means 84ft. So Karen's lawyer asked, quote, did Trooper Guarino tell you the distance from the flagpole to the front door was 72ft? To which the expert responded, maybe Karen's Lawyer, quote, well, 84ft is more than 72ft, right? That's when the prosecution's expert had to concede that yes, the final recording of steps definitely means that John's phone could have made it into the house that night. And then came the question of battery temperature of John's phone. The expert had conducted two cold weather tests on another iPhone using the same software. One test was done in a freezer. And even though the expert didn't know the freezer's exact temperature because he didn't use a thermometer, he said the phone's battery dropped 50 degrees in just 15 minutes. In the second test, the expert placed the phone outside in 33.8 degree weather, and after 13 minutes, the battery dropped 30.6 degrees. Then came the comparison with John okeefe's phone. At 12:13am John's phone was reading at 82 degrees. By 12:37, it had cooled down to 72 degrees. From 12:37 to 1:36am, just under an hour, the temperature dropped only 22 degrees in total. Karen's lawyer pointed out that is not what you'd expect if the phone had been lying in the freezing snow the whole time. And then a standout moment, that attorney Robert Alessi asked point blank, do you know what the temperature in Canton was that night? And the expert said no, he didn't know the temperature on January 28, nor did he know the temperatures into the early morning hours of the 29th. He said it just wasn't part of his test. It was a long morning with a lot of technical details, the kind of morning that can put a jury to sleep. But overall, the cross examination was logical and efficient. And if the jury was following, it could be disastrous for the commonwealth. The next witness was someone the jury had already heard a lot about and some might say a star witness for the prosecution, Jen McCabe, introduced to the court as Jennifer McCabe. If you don't already know this, Jen McCabe is the sister of a woman who was at the house party that night. And not just at the house party. It was her house party. That woman owned the house. Her name is Nicole Albert. And Nicole, Jen's sister, is married to Brian Albert, also an owner of the home, also present that night at the party. That couple has since sold 34 Fairview Road, but not before the party that fateful snowy night in January of 2022. It was their house and it was their front yard where John O'Keefe was found in the snow. Oh, and also Brian Albert, also a former cop, a Boston police officer, just like John O'Keefe was. Which, if you think about it, is really weird considering the fact that Brian Albert, a Boston cop, never once stepped foot out the front door of his house after all hell broke loose on his front lawn and a frozen man was discovered there. Brian Albert and his wife Nicole Also owned a German shepherd in that house, a dog named Chloe. And Chloe was also home the night of that party. But a few months after that party, a few months after John O'Keefe died, they mysteriously got rid of Chloe. They re homed the German shepherd saying that Chloe had attacked another dog. We're going to hear all about the Alberts and Chloe the dog a little later on but you're going to have to grab a drink for when we do. But let's go Back to Jen McCabe again. This is the sister of Nicole the homeowner, Jen McCabe taking the stand, you could say star witness. She described how she first got to know John O'Keeffe. Jen's daughter was friends with John's niece, girl named Kaylee and those girls were close. Sleepovers and carpooling the whole nine yards. And over time Jen said that she and John they became close as well. Jen said she became friendly with Karen too. John's girlfriend on the stand, Jen talked about the weekend of John's death. Everybody knew that a nor'easter was on its way but they headed out to the Waterfall Bar anyway. Jen testified that the mood was good, mood was great. Everybody was friendly including Karen and the drinks were flowing. Jen admitted that she wasn't sure how much she drank that night but maybe two, maybe three drinks. Then they played surveillance video from the bar including the moment that John arrived and hugged everyone. And Jen is also seen clapping as John and Karen enter the Waterfall Bar. After some scene setting at the bar, the Commonwealth then switched gears and fast forwarded to the next morning to the hour just before John O'Keefe is found frozen in the snow. Jen gets a frantic phone call at 4:53am from Karen Reed. Karen is screaming that she can't find John and that he hadn't come home. And Jen agrees to meet up with Karen and another woman, Carrie Roberts to help look for John. Here's her testimony.

[Jen McCabe]

At 4:53 my phone rings and I look at my caller ID I look at the phone and it's Kaylee, John's niece. John's niece. I heard a voice and a lot of screaming.

[Carrie Roberts]

And the voice you heard, is that Kaylee, John's niece?

[Jen McCabe]

Yes.

[Carrie Roberts]

And the screaming, was it a man or a woman screaming?

[Jen McCabe]

It was a woman.

[Carrie Roberts]

How loud was that person screaming?

[Jen McCabe]

Very loud.

[Carrie Roberts]

Could you make out anything that person was saying as they were screaming?

[Jen McCabe]

My name was screamed a lot and then the other individual ended up getting on the phone with me.

[Carrie Roberts]

And who was that person that was screaming in the background.

[Jen McCabe]

Ms. Reed, how long was she screaming.

[Carrie Roberts]

For while you were speaking to your niece before you spoke to her?

[Jen McCabe]

The entire time I was speaking to Kaylee, she was screaming.

[Carrie Roberts]

Describe her demeanor.

[Jen McCabe]

Misreads.

[Carrie Roberts]

Yes.

[Jen McCabe]

Jen.

[Ashley Banfield]

Jen.

[Jen McCabe]

And then she's screaming that John didn't come home. She left him at the waterfall. She was hysterical. It was very hard to follow what she was saying.

[Carrie Roberts]

How long did that first call last for?

[Jen McCabe]

I'm not sure how long? Possibly a few minutes. But it was loud enough and long enough that my husband shot up in bed thinking one of my kids had come in the room screaming.

[Carrie Roberts]

During that phone call, other than the screaming and the screaming of your name, did the defendant give you any information other than she had dropped John off.

[Jen McCabe]

At the waterfall, they had gotten into a fight, she had left him there, and he didn't come home.

[Carrie Roberts]

And when you were woken up, were you in asleep when you were woken up?

[Jen McCabe]

Yes, I was sound asleep.

[Carrie Roberts]

What was your mental state like when you first woke up and got that call?

[Jen McCabe]

Well, I had been up late. I had taken my medication that I take from my ms, so I was definitely a bit groggy when I first woke up. So immediately I just wanted to help her. She was a hysterical. Kaylee was upset. So I went into that kind of mom mode of, what can I do? How can I help? So I immediately was like thinking, okay, well, if you left him at the waterfall, let me think how, who was still there or, you know, how. How can I help you? How can we find John?

[Carrie Roberts]

After you had a moment to make a phone call and think about things, did you head become any more clearer?

[Jen McCabe]

It did. And I was, you know, reminded by my husband that we had seen Karen in John's car outside of Fairview. Immediately I was like, oh, my God, you're right. The minute he said it, I remember seeing the SUV and then all the text. The text messages that I had had and the phone conversation with John.

[Carrie Roberts]

You mentioned the first time that you had that phone call, the defendant was screaming your name.

[Jen McCabe]

Jen.

[Carrie Roberts]

Jen, Jen. Was she saying your name in the.

[Jen McCabe]

Second call or was it just general screaming my name? And then when she got on the phone, I had told her, karen, I saw you guys outside of my sister's house. And then she told me she didn't remember being there. And then she went on to say. She started saying, could I have hit him? Did I hit him? I don't. And then she just was just all over the place, like, screaming my name, screaming so many different things. She was hard to Follow or understand.

[Carrie Roberts]

When she was saying to you, did I hit him? Could have. I hit him. Was that before or after you informed her that you had seen her out front of your sister's house?

[Jen McCabe]

It was after I told her that. She also informed her. Informed me that she had cracked her.

[Carrie Roberts]

Taillight in that conversation. She told you that?

[Jen McCabe]

In one of the conversations I had with her in my bedroom, yes.

[Carrie Roberts]

She was telling you about that. She didn't remember that night. Was that before or after you had told her about seeing her car?

[Jen McCabe]

When I said I saw her at Fairview, then her response was she didn't even remember going there.

[Carrie Roberts]

Had you ever spent any other time with Carrie Roberts before this morning?

[Jen McCabe]

No.

[Carrie Roberts]

Were you friends at that point?

[Jen McCabe]

No.

[Carrie Roberts]

How would you consider your relationship with Ms. Roberts on that morning when Ms. Reed arrived to your home?

[Jen McCabe]

I had met her once, and that was the extent of it. I didn't. I wouldn't say I knew her at all beyond that one time. I went out with her and.

[Carrie Roberts]

Why don't you take us back now to when you first hear the defendant in your driveway yelling. When you hear that, do you hear any words or is it general yelling?

[Jen McCabe]

So I hear yelling. So I go to. I was downstairs making coffee. I go to my front door and I open it, and she's screaming 10. 10. She's screaming that three times. And then she was saying, we have to go to Fairview. You know, a lot of the. Could I have hit him? Did I hit him? Just. She was on repeat.

[Carrie Roberts]

What did you do?

[Jen McCabe]

My husband came running down the hall and was like, tell her to shut up. She's going to wake up the neighbors. And then I said, I'm just going to go with her. I'm going to go look for John. And then he yelled down, saying something like, you can't be driving around in this weather, you know, with a broken tail light.

[Carrie Roberts]

When you saw the defendant at your front door, had the weather changed overnight?

[Jen McCabe]

Yes.

[Carrie Roberts]

Was it different?

[Jen McCabe]

Yes. Now the snow had intensified. It was almost like it was dark outside. But it was like whiteout conditions.

[Carrie Roberts]

How dark?

[Jen McCabe]

Dark. I mean, it was dark. It was like 5:30 in the morning.

[Carrie Roberts]

What was the visibility like?

[Jen McCabe]

Not good.

[Carrie Roberts]

Can you describe the defendant's demeanor on the trip from your house to John's house?

[Jen McCabe]

She was just screaming, yelling things. It was almost like everything she said, she said three times. And she just went from one thing to the next. She was quite hysterical.

[Carrie Roberts]

Do you remember what she was yelling about?

[Jen McCabe]

About going to. Of you asking could she have hit Him. Did I hit him?

[Carrie Roberts]

How many times did she raise the question? Did I hit him? Could have. I hit him.

[Jen McCabe]

Good amount.

[Carrie Roberts]

Did you ever speak to her about that?

[Jen McCabe]

No.

[Carrie Roberts]

Before you left John's house that morning, did the defendant show you anything?

[Jen McCabe]

Yes. When we were out in the driveway, I had thought it was when we went in, but I think it might have been when we came out. But regardless, at one point, when we were in the driveway at Meadows, Karen showed myself and Carrie Roberts the cracked taillight.

[Carrie Roberts]

What was Ms. Roberts demeanor at that point?

[Jen McCabe]

She was frustrated with Karen. Had said that, you know, had said that. Karen basically was telling her to shut up. You were so drunk, you don't. You could have hit anything last night. And then, Kerry, I remember just thinking, all right, let's go. And I remember Carrie thinking, oh, someone's gonna get. Sorry.

[Carrie Roberts]

We don't want to think what somebody thought.

[Jen McCabe]

Okay.

[Carrie Roberts]

I want to know what you heard and what you saw. Okay?

[Jen McCabe]

Yeah.

[Carrie Roberts]

All right. At some point, when you were looking at the taillight with missing pieces with the defendant and Ms. Roberts, did you see Ms. Roberts point anything out?

[Jen McCabe]

Yes.

[Carrie Roberts]

Share that with us.

[Jen McCabe]

She pointed a piece that was sticking out and was concerned that someone was going to catch their coat or something on it.

[Ashley Banfield]

Then Jen McCabe described arriving at 34 Fairview. That's when John was discovered in the yard. Carrie Roberts had to wipe the snow from his face before Jen says she realized it was John.

[Carrie Roberts]

So as you pull out of. Or Carrie Roberts pulls out of John's driveway, what is the mood inside that car?

[Jen McCabe]

I'd say it was starting to get tense because Karen was just continuously screaming. Carrie was trying to focus on driving. And Karen's behavior in the back of the car was a bit erratic.

[Carrie Roberts]

When you say erratic, give some detail what you mean by that.

[Jen McCabe]

Yes. She would go from sitting back to leaning up in between us, and she would yell Carrie's name three times. Then she would yell, my name's three times. And then she would yell, could I hit him? Did I hit him over and over again?

[Carrie Roberts]

Did you have a chance to see the defendant on that drive at all?

[Jen McCabe]

Yes.

[Carrie Roberts]

Was she looking out the windows with you?

[Jen McCabe]

No, she was popping back and forth, back and forth and screaming.

[Carrie Roberts]

Was it constant screaming or did it change at all?

[Jen McCabe]

She would scream and then kind of sit back, and she'd almost be, like, quiet for a minute. Was like, okay, good. And then she'd start again. We continue, you know, driving, and we kind of were driving slowly past, you know, the line of, I guess, bushes and the flagpole area. And all of a sudden, Karen's screaming from the back, there he is. Or something. Something to the effect of, there he is, let me out.

[Carrie Roberts]

Did you know what she was talking about?

[Jen McCabe]

I had no idea.

[Carrie Roberts]

When she was yelling that, did you look out the window?

[Jen McCabe]

Yeah, we were like. We had our eyes peeled out the window.

[Carrie Roberts]

Did you see anything?

[Jen McCabe]

Nothing but snow.

[Carrie Roberts]

How long was she yelling about whatever.

[Jen McCabe]

It is she was saying, Kerry? I mean, she screamed, stop. So Kerry stopped pretty quickly. There he is. There he is. She could have kicked the door, like, let me out of here.

[Carrie Roberts]

When she was kicking the door, what were you doing?

[Jen McCabe]

I was just like, what the heck? What is going on?

[Carrie Roberts]

What happens next?

[Jen McCabe]

She gets out. Carrie looks at me and said something. Said like, she's batshit crazy.

[Carrie Roberts]

When you got out of the car, did you look towards the area of the flagpole?

[Jen McCabe]

Yes.

[Carrie Roberts]

Could you see anything at that point?

[Jen McCabe]

No.

[Carrie Roberts]

How close did you get to the area of the flagpole before you could first actually see something?

[Jen McCabe]

Well, I saw the shadowy figures of the. Of Carrie and Karen, and it wasn't until I got very close over to them that I saw. I saw Kerry removing the snow from John's face.

[Carrie Roberts]

Is that the first mark moment you realized that that was John O'Keefe on the ground?

[Jen McCabe]

Yes, it was. I was frozen. I was shocked. I couldn't believe that was him just lying there. I see Carrie just wiping the snow off. Karen had straddled him and had lifted her shirt and his shirt and was laying on him and carried. Carrie was screaming at her to get off of him. And I was literally just stunned. I mean, there he was.

[Carrie Roberts]

What did John look like when you saw him?

[Jen McCabe]

I couldn't see much but his face because the rest was snow. And Karen was moving over him, but he just looked for, like, just him. But just like, from at first, I. I just stood there for a minute because I couldn't believe it was him. And then Gary Roberts and I made eye contact and I, like, knew. I was like, all right, I'm going to call 91 1. But I think I knew in that moment that John. That John, you know, was dead.

[Carrie Roberts]

When you go to bed, do you stay up at all?

[Jen McCabe]

Yes.

[Carrie Roberts]

Do you use your iPhone?

[Jen McCabe]

Yes, I do.

[Carrie Roberts]

What were you doing?

[Jen McCabe]

I texted a few people, and then I did a couple of Google searches.

[Carrie Roberts]

And what were the searches for?

[Jen McCabe]

1, my daughter had played in a basketball game earlier in the night, and it was a very good game. So I went and I read the report on it, and then my Other daughter had an offer to play on a basketball team. So we had to make a decision about whether or not we were going to accept the spot. So I was just looking up that basketball club.

[Carrie Roberts]

Other than those regular searches that one would do, is there anything remarkable about what you were searching at 2,227that time frame?

[Ashley Banfield]

Now, at this point, court abruptly broke for the day, right in the middle of her testimony. And I know it's really not a good stopping point. Right, but the judge makes the rules, not me. Jen McCabe will be back on the stand tomorrow. And you just know what's coming, folks. A fierce cross examination from the defense. Like fierce. I might tell you to get another drink for that one, too. But just because the jury was done for the day does not mean that court is over. And once the jurors were out of the room, the subject switched to Karen Reed's crash reconstruction experts. And things got heated over whether those ARCA professionals would be allowed to testify. Now, if you have been following this case, you know that these experts are a really big deal for the defense. The accident reconstruction is their jam. And they have already said under oath that John O'Keefe's injuries did not line up with a pedestrian crash. AKA doesn't look like he was hit by a car. And not just Karen's car, any car, they say. And that is how you say, huge, the legal word for massive. It's a big, big deal. So the prosecution has been pushing back hard, accusing the defense of blowing past court deadlines and hiding important communications about these guys. The prosecution doesn't want these witnesses to testify at all. All which makes sense because, truth be told, they are devastating to the prosecution's case. But it's up to the judge, and she told the defense she had just one question.

[Judge Kanoni]

Mr. Lassie, I only have one question for you, so would you stand, please? You're arguing this, right? This was your motion. So my question is, how do I reconcile the fact that 100 text messages were deleted by counsel? And we heard yesterday council's preferred method of dealing with Dr. Wolf was via signal. How do we reconcile that with the Massachusetts Rules of professional conduct 1.15? I don't see how you reconcile that. Where all correspondence related to the matter, whether in physical or electronic form, must be saved for 10 years minimum. How do you reconcile that? How do I reconcile that?

[Ashley Banfield]

You may already know what signal is. It has been in the news a lot lately. It's a messaging platform that deletes all your messages. They simply can't be traced. And a lot of people use it for legitimate purposes and as an encrypted messaging app. The messages won't show up even if your phone is downloaded and the data extracted. Karen's lawyer, Alan Jackson, only recently started using signal for messaging, but that's not the way he communicated during the last trial. In the last trial, he was using text messaging like the rest of us. And remember yesterday when One of the ARCA witnesses, Dr. Wolf, said that he deleted the entire thread of text messages between himself and Alan Jackson after the last trial was over? Dr. Wolf said that he doesn't have a habit of keeping every message and conversation with every attorney that he's worked with and routinely deletes old text messages. And, man, that did not sit well with Judge Kanoni. Her honor was legit pissed. And when it came time for the defense to answer her question, answer what she's to make of all the deleting and the encryption, the courtroom got a case of whiplash.

[Alan Jackson]

I'm gonna.

[Judge Kanoni]

Should I go to the podium right there? And I expect a short answer.

[Alan Jackson]

The short answer, your honor, is the rule that you're citing has absolutely no applicability. This procedure, proceeding for this.

[Carrie Roberts]

Can I finish my answer?

[Judge Kanoni]

You're all right, go ahead.

[Alan Jackson]

As no applicability, that rule is intended to be between an attorney and the client. The court has no jurisdiction to enforce that rule.

[Judge Kanoni]

I agree. I agree that's a different body. But I'm asking you how I reconcile that when I'm trying to figure this out. Mr. Lesser, you know what? You're going to win this, so why don't you just let me make my ruling? Okay.

[Ashley Banfield]

So Judge Canoni called the whole situation, quote, repeated and deliberate, end quote, her words. And she said it was, quote, grave concern the way the defense has treated discovery, and not just the messages, but everything else, too.

[Judge Kanoni]

I understand there have been repeated violations of the reciprocal discovery orders, and my orders repeated and deliberate. But. And Mr. Brennan, I understand completely the commonwealth's argument completely. The ambush has been set upon here. However, a defendant's right to a fair trial is paramount to everything. So I'm going to allow the OCCA witnesses to testify. I am going to allow what I expect to be a very robust cross examination, and I'm going to allow them to testify to everything that they said up until yesterday. So you'll get the report May 7th. And I know that's late, and. And if you need anything as a result of that being late, I'll hear you on whatever motion you have. But that's where we stand. And I expect counsel to comply with all rulings and rules of the court and all rules of professional conduct and no more nonsense. Let's just try this case. All right, that's it. I'll see you tomorrow.

[Carrie Roberts]

All rounds of the court, please.

[Ashley Banfield]

So the bottom line, well, it's a big one. The jury is going to hear from the ARCA folks, the crash reconstruction experts. And their testimony could be a slam dunk for the defense. So by the end of day six, we saw a prosecution expert concede that some of his cell phone data was weak, that John O'Keefe could very well have walked right into that house party that night. We also saw a star witness take the stand, Jen McCabe, who began laying out a story that does not bode well for Karen Reed. And with Jen still on the stand tomorrow, the cross examination could be long and it could be very painful. And we will be here for all of it. This is where I stop for a hot minute and tell you about something that I just recently found out. You know, as somebody who does true crime for a living, I discovered some news yesterday about the Idaho murders. Had a long conversation with Steve Gonzalez, who's the father of Kaylee Gonzalez, one of the four victims at 1122 King Road. And know originally I wanted to talk to him about a couple of things that we had discovered from some of the discovery and some court documents that had dropped. But he and I had a long conversation about a lot of other things, too. First and foremost, some of the big news was that we learned that the door to Zanna's bedroom was actually open all that time, all that morning, when those two surviving roommates didn't know what was wrong with Zanna, why she wouldn't wake up, that she was unconscious. Those two surviving roommates were too afraid to come upstairs and see for themselves what was going on with Zanna and Ethan. They were too afraid to go even one more flight after that to find out what was going on with Kaylee and Maddie. But all this time, we thought Zanna's door was closed and that they were knocking and yelling, zanna, Ethan, wake up. They weren't knocking on the door to the bedroom. And the other massive piece of information was that she said that Bethany also had an opportunity to see Zanna in that open bedroom door, lying on the floor with her feet towards the door and her head towards the wall. So both of those surviving roommates actually did see through the open door of Zanna's bedroom, but down the hall quite a long way. But it was another friend of theirs named Hunter who they'd called over that morning to come over and help them. He went upstairs with them, but he took the additional steps down the hallway. After having grabbed a knife because he was afraid himself, he took the additional steps down the hallway. He's the one that laid eyes on the real scene. And Hunter abruptly turned back around and got those girls out of there before they witnessed what truly was in that bedroom. The horror. Right? So that was a huge piece of news. And when I talked to Steve Gonzalez about this, Steve told me that he has learned from the coroner, having a phone call, multiple phone calls with the coroner, that his daughter Kaylee had been punched multiple times in the face so brutally that her nose was broken. And he said the words to me, pretty jaw dropping, actually, that the blows to his daughter's face were so severe that the blows themselves could have killed her if the stab wounds hadn't. Just a remarkable hour long conversation with Steve and we go to a lot of places what he's going through in this final stretch as they're getting close to justice, Right? They're only a couple months away from an actual trial now. So Steve and I had this really spectacular conversation. I've dropped it as a bonus episode and it's available on all the podcast platforms as well as YouTube. So I encourage you to go there. But I also suggest, like, if you haven't already, make sure you subscribe because I do this every so often, just randomly hit up a quick episode and I drop these bonus episodes. And so if you subscribe, you'll be notified and you won't miss these. And I don't want you to miss any of it because we're really ramping up our coverage not just for Karen Reed, but also for Idaho as well. I'm Ashley Banfield. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for watching. And remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.